March 9, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of The D2Z Podcast, Brandon Amoroso interviews Casey Cheshire, founder of Ringmaster Conversational Marketing. They discuss Casey's entrepreneurial journey, the transition from running a B2B agency to focusing on podcasting, and the importance of building genuine relationships with podcast guests. Casey emphasizes that the true value of podcasting lies not in the number of listeners but in the connections made with guests, which can lead to significant business opportunities. They also explore the types of businesses that can benefit from podcasting and the importance of having a clear strategy.
Here's What You'll Learn:
❗The transition to podcasting was driven by the need for thought leadership and content.
❗Building genuine relationships with podcast guests can lead to significant business opportunities.
❗The focus should be on the guest, not the number of listeners.
❗Many businesses can benefit from podcasting, especially if they can create valuable connections.
❗Market timing is crucial for business growth and success.
❗It's important to have guide rails in place to avoid scope creep with clients.
❗Podcasting can be a powerful tool for B2B marketing and customer connection.
❗The authenticity of the conversation is key to engaging listeners.
❗Working with professionals can help businesses avoid common pitfalls in podcasting.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction to the Podcasting Journey
08:40 Transitioning from Agency to Podcasting
12:44 The Power of Guest-Centric Podcasting
21:35 Identifying the Right Businesses for Podcasting
Casey Cheshire:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseycheshire/
Ringmaster - https://ringmaster.com/
Brandon Amoroso:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonamoroso/
Web - https://brandonamoroso.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/bamoroso11/
X - https://twitter.com/AmorosoBrandon
Scalis.ai - https://scalis.ai/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning into D2Z, a podcast
about using the Gen Z mindset togrow your business.
I'm Gen Z entrepreneur BrandonAmoroso, former founder of
Electric and now the co-founderof Scaless, and today I'm
talking with Casey Chesire,who's the founder and chief
evangelist at RingmasterConversational Marketing
designing, producing andpromoting customer connection
focused B2B podcasts.
(00:22):
Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Thanks, man, great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So before we dive into the world of podcasting
unironically on a podcast, canyou give everybody a quick
background on sort of yourentrepreneurial journey and how
you ended up in this space?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, it all started a few years ago when I was a
child selling raspberries in theneighborhood.
It starts out small, but I hadbeen iterating and trying to
make little companies here andthere for a long time.
But my big breakout was about adecade ago when I launched a
B2B marketing tech agency.
(00:58):
We did a lot of work withSalesforce and Pardot and we
just went from zero to 30employees almost overnight over
the for a couple of years andthen just ran that for about a
decade.
So that was the.
That was the real big one.
But I had a lot of practiceswings before that, um, and then
now we're doing this podcastingbusiness.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
What made that one, the big one versus the small
swings?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's a good question.
Well.
Well, you can only pick so manyraspberries.
But I did some other projects.
You know one example I wrote aplay and I thought let me just
publish that, maybe make a playpublishing company.
I'm not totally understandingthat.
What a play publishing companyis is basically reading a bunch
of shitty plays to find the onediamond in the rough and then,
(01:46):
after you've done all thatfront-loaded work, you publish
it and market it and then maybeyou'll get paid.
So I think a lot of it wasfollowing passion but not
understanding maybe theunderlying business model
beneath a company.
And so that would be a bunch ofthe swings were just following
passion, seeing if you couldmonetize, and then understanding
what the core business was.
(02:06):
Did I want to read a bunch ofbad plays to pick one and then
market the hell out of that andthen have so much front-loaded
cost?
Not really.
So then I realized that was notfor me.
But with the Pardot business, Iloved Pardot and I was using it
in my marketing career just as amarketer.
And so then what ended uphappening is people were like,
hey, that's a great story youtold about turning that company
(02:26):
around using that tool.
Could you help me out with itand so and there was a model
beneath it there was the abilityto have consulting um and great
ratios so you can hire reallygood people, charge a whole
bunch and and grow the company,and then also, I'd say, a great
partner, right.
So we had a huge partner withPardot and eventually became
Salesforce, but they sent us themajority of our deals.
(02:50):
So we had like a very mutualpartnership with them.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's not dissimilar from howmine was able to scale.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, with Shopify, did they send you most of the
love?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Klaviyo, a lot of Klaviyo.
Some Shopify as well, but notas much as Klaviyo.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, there's a huge movement in 2019.
I think it was 2019, 2020, whenthe Shopify-Mailchimp
relationship was deprecated andthey basically told their
merchants you should migrate toKlaviyo.
You know that caused a lot ofmigration, work, a lot of growth
(03:32):
for Klaviyo, not a lot ofservice providers.
Klaviyo Now there's a ton.
You know there are a dime, adozen, but at that time, you
know, it was very much a whitespace for us to dive in Market
timing.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
man is crazy, right, you just hit that market timing
right, but you couldn't just bethere that moment.
There's a little bit of thatgroundwork, the relationships,
establishing some expertise, andthen the market timing flipped
and then it's like grab thefishbowl.
Time to go hire, hire, hire.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, we were already very well steeped in the entire
Shopify ecosystem.
Yeah, yeah, we were alreadyvery well steeped in the entire
Shopify ecosystem.
Yeah, I was just sort of seeingthe writing on the wall that we
should oh we should double downon this and pivot our agency
into just being focused oncustomer experience and
retention marketing, versustrying to do everything for
everyone.
Yeah, being able to pivot intosomething and go head first
(04:26):
versus trying to have our toastin too many or trying to have
our hands in too many baskets.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, picking the battles is tough.
You kind of want to doeverything.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yes, I remember firing my first client and how
weird and bittersweet it wasbecause it was like I'm losing
revenue, but I feel awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I remember the first time I someone asked if they
could, you know, like a la carte, pick apart a program and
instead of doing 12 months Ijust want to do one month, as
like a POC, and my my responsewas no.
And and they didn't go for it.
Neither did I.
I felt so good after that call.
I told everybody I was like Ijust said no, it was awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean the amount of time and hassle that
you saved yourself.
There's almost no chance.
I think that that person wouldhave converted anyways.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Something that I saw all the time the more that you
would bend for somebody to tryand get them across the line,
more often than not it was neverenough.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, it's the whole.
Give the mouse a cookie, youknow, and then they want a glass
of milk, and then they want ablanket, and then a nap, and
then eventually pancakes.
You're like why am I makingpancakes for these people?
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yes, the scope becomes pretty tremendous.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, and I also find there's like an inverse
relationship to that with theirappreciation of it.
The more you, you like sort ofbend and you try to give and be
flexible with that, the lessthey appreciate it, which is
just so counterintuitive.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You're like what do you mean?
Brandon's not available at 3amon Saturday night to deal with
whatever shit I have to sendover?
Now that was a big transitionfor us, especially as we grew.
You know my early clients.
They were used to me 24-7 doinganything and everything for
(06:12):
them.
And then obviously that's not asustainable, like long-term
business model, and so as wegrew, it wasn't me servicing the
account, but also we had tohave sort of guardrails in place
.
You know I couldn't work for $5an hour anymore because I
wasn't just getting started andhelping them out, and that was
definitely a tough, toughtransition.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And it can be tough, especially if you're having fun,
right?
I had a great mentor who mademe calculate it out.
Okay, how much are they payingyou per month?
Cool, what are?
How many hours are they payingyou per month?
Cool, what are, how many hoursdo you think you're doing?
And the math turned into like,oh you're, you're getting paid a
fraction of what your agencywould charge for, like your,
your entry level person.
But I was going like I was justdoing too much and I wasn't,
(06:57):
you know, because I was havingfun.
But it was like, okay, you needto like rein it in and have
some, some guide rails here, soyou're not, you know,
accidentally letting them takeadvantage of you.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, part of that maturation process for our
business was instituting a timetracking process and then our
worst offender was revealed andyou know, especially during
COVID, access to people was soeasy via Slack, email, phone
calls, you know, everybody wasjust always online all the time,
and so I think our effectivehour really late for that client
(07:28):
who was paying us like $20,000a month was like $16 an hour.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Weird right.
You wouldn't think that You'dthink oh, it's a great client.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I know, and without that time tracking I would have
had no idea $16 an hour and youknow the the one-off calls the
slacks here and there the hey.
You know, let me go down to the.
Brandon said no, but let meweasel my way into the.
You know the right personwithin the team to be able to
get them to do something.
For me it was.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
It was never ending you might have been losing money
on that 20k oh, we were forsure.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I mean, it made our top line look better and it made
me feel better but, it.
It didn't actually help orsupport the business, and when
we fired them, the team waspumped and that was the easiest
sign that we had done the rightthing.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Priceless morale building right there Exactly.
You know what top line metrics.
You know, like I, definitelyhave fallen in the trap of like
either revenue or even number ofemployees, being like a almost
like bragging rights when you'reearly in, but then later on you
realize yeah, not really,Because there's some
construction companies with 80%lumber and cogs that might be a
(08:35):
$20 million company, but reallyit's like a $1 million company.
They just have all theirexpenses in there.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Right, exactly, the devil's in the details with
anything.
Yeah, so you did the agencygame for a while while and then
you decided to jump right backin again.
So what was the catalyst forgoing back in?
But also, you know, pivoting tofocus on this B2B podcasting.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
You know I started a podcast many years in for the
business.
I needed thought leadership, Ineeded content.
And you know I'd done the wholething where you'd write a blog
post on LinkedIn and either 12people see it or 1200 people see
it.
But was the difference was like, you know, random sometimes,
and or what image you put onthere which was just so lame.
(09:20):
So I was like what's an easyway to do that?
So I just I just went after it,just launched the podcast, and
there was no group like what wehave now to advise you.
There's like audio nerds,here's the mic to get man, but
no one's there to tell you likehow do you do this as a business
and what business outcomes canyou achieve?
And so I just winged it and Ihad some great success with it.
(09:44):
Man, I used it to.
I know you have a book.
I used it to write my book,interviewing different people.
Each month I had a theme ofpeople that I'd interview and
then I'd combine thoseinterviews into a webinar and
then that webinar became thebasis for the text of the
chapter in each book.
So after 12 months I had 12chapters and all on a theme
around marketing automation.
It worked really well and italso became like a capstone
(10:06):
project.
Everything I know is in thisthing so that I can go on to the
next thing.
But yeah, so a ton of contentthat actually very quickly
became too much content, right.
So content was not an issue thepod ever again, maybe finding
the right content or using themost of it.
But what ended up happeningmagically?
(10:26):
I had this amazing interviewwith this absolutely badass CMO
of a medium-sized SaaS companyand she was awesome, great
conversation.
So I interviewed senior levelmarketers on the pod and and
then she was like, hey, by theway, we're offline right after a
great interview, we'remigrating from Marketo to Pardot
(10:48):
.
I was like, no, kidding, that'swhat we do.
And she's like, really, I'mlike, yeah, and so we didn't
know, neither of us knew thatthat project was happening, but
we just hit it off.
We'd spent like an hour plushour and a half time together
recently, had great deepconversations, and she was like
cool, let's get our teamstogether.
We got our teams together, theyscoped it out and it was like a
(11:09):
friends and family deal.
We were like, just get it done.
And it turned into like an$80,000 deal with no sales cycle
, no competitor shoppinganything.
It was just like, let's do thisdeal for my friend and I told
my team hey, let's take goodcare of them.
And she told her team let'swork with these guys.
And we just made it happen.
I thought that's awesome andthat was on accident.
(11:29):
What if I made that on purpose?
What if I actually selected thekind of guests I wanted to talk
to build relationships with?
Not like, let me trick you intoa call.
It's like no, let me get toknow you and if I can solve some
of your problems, I'm here foryou, right?
So we started handpicking.
We found all the people withPardot in North America.
Right, you know, use a littlebit of you know code tracking to
(11:50):
see who had the code on theirsite.
You know rank, ordered it bysize, invited the top 100
companies that had Pard on,invited all their CMOs to be
guests on my podcast.
And the majority of them saidyes, made some great
relationships, got somefriendships out of them,
partnerships, referrals and alot of customers out of that.
And it was so much fun to do itthat way, right?
(12:12):
Instead of playing all thosegames that we historically have
to play in the marketing world,all those B2B games.
Let me give you a blanket tomeet your boss.
I'm going to give them socksand then they're going to
remember me and then maybethey'll get on a call with my
sales rep, like all this BS.
I was like let's just skip thatand do one of these things
where we just have a pod, weconnect with our customer and we
learn more about them and thenif we can do business and help
(12:35):
each other out, let's do it.
So for me that was just.
It was so different than allthe games I was playing doing
marketing automation.
Then when I had a chance toexit that company, it was like
no brainer, let's do this podthing.
People had started asking methe same way.
They'd asked me to be part onhey, cool story about your
podcast, can you help me withthat too?
I was like I'd love to.
Let's figure this thing out.
(12:55):
So I had a chance to re, re,like, do an iteration again in
another company and start over.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
but but help people launch podcasts what are, you
know, the biggest myths that youthink around podcasts, yeah
it's all about the listenersright and we get this.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know, whether it's b2c, b2, anything, b2g, d2c
, any of these things it's allabout like you get so fixated on
the vanity metrics and wantingto be famous and wanting to have
those stats.
It's so counterintuitive.
If you do it the right way, ifyou make the guest the most
important person, it doesn'tmatter if anyone listens right.
(13:35):
If the listens matter, you'recompeting with Joe Rogan and
he's going to win, and TimFerriss and everyone else.
You're not going to win thatright.
You might.
I know One out of many, many,many people might, but you're
not.
It's like trying to competewith Mr Beast.
It's not going to work, don'tdo it.
But you don't need to becauseif you make it all about your
(14:02):
guest and your guest you knowgoing in is someone you could
actually help out, your teamcould help out then let's make a
relationship with them and ifthe value of the whole program
is in that conversation and aconnection with the guest, then
you've paid for the episode justby having that conversation.
But guess what?
People do actually listen andthey really like when they're
listening to a show.
That's not pandering.
I mean that's one of thereasons why Joe and other people
are successful is they don'tcare if you listen or not, right
(14:25):
.
And so it's like, hey, my guestis most important, I don't care
if you listen or not, the showis for me.
I want to learn, and if youlearn, too cool.
And people appreciate the factthat you're not just like you're
just joined I'm letting youjoin this conversation, but like
you can listen in, butotherwise it's me and this
person right.
And so they appreciate that.
(14:45):
And what's cool is, if yourguest had a great experience
because you made it all aboutthem, they're sharing it with
their tribe, with their network.
Who's then going and listeningto it?
And some of them are going tostay.
So you, organically, aregrowing your pod by not focusing
on organically growing your pod.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
The authenticity shines through as well.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
In the content and I think listeners can pick up on
that, totally that aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Totally If you're not into it.
You know we always our numberone tip for hosts is never ask a
question you don't want to knowthe answer to.
Because if you don't don't ask,because your reaction to that
question will be like oh yeah,great, thanks, or okay, or next
question.
You know it's just like no.
Ask something you actually wantto know and if your audience
can't follow along, that's okay.
They don't need to, they don'tneed to listen.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yeah, that's definitely like training a
muscle memory too.
Yeah, or training like youwould for for a sport.
I think you know, when I firststarted doing the podcast, I
would script all of them youknow have some boilerplate
questions, at the very least,that I could fall back on yeah
but now I think it's actuallymore of a detriment than it is a
(15:53):
positive, because I'd ratherjust have a free-flowing
conversation, and you know itdoesn't.
You can still, as long as youhave your high-level objectives,
the way you're trying to getacross and can arguably sort of
sprinkle it in here and there.
I think that's better thantrying to be super scripted.
Anybody who I have on thepodcast who wants to have all
the questions ahead of time,that's more like an interview.
(16:14):
It's not really a podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's a warning sign .
Right there, that's a red flag.
Hello, podcast.
That's a warning sign.
Right there, that's a red flag.
Hello, red flag.
This might not be the guest foryou.
I need all of your questions inadvance.
Okay, I don't even know whatthe questions are all gonna be.
Um, you know what I like havehaving the first question be the
same every time.
It's like kind of like your,your go-to, especially if it can
(16:36):
just launch your guest into atirade and then maybe have some
milestones after that, but atleast the first one's always
going to be the same and thenyou just let it ride, you just
go from there yeah, I mean,mine's super simple.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's just give us your background.
Yeah, the podcast in and ofitself is about entrepreneurship
and your journey, so and tellus your story.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right?
You asked right at thebeginning what's your story, man
?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
and then from there there's probably 50 different
directions that it could betaken, depending on what that
response is like.
But also on the guest as well,to be an engaged guest and
provide some material.
I've definitely had some peopleon where they answer that
question.
I'm just like man, that was,that was tough.
(17:18):
That was like, uh, you took ittoo far when it comes to
distilling the message into a,you know, a 10 to 15 seconds.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Seriously, man, you know I love doing a prep call on
my pod.
I'm totally, totally got tohave you on my pod and uh, have
you, you know, experienced thattoo?
We can compare and contrast,but like I always do a prep call
, and the reason why is I'veexperienced those things you're
talking about where your guestis just like they're either
unbeknownst to them, they'relike really boring right or they
like have a terrible answerthat you've heard nine times.
(17:48):
You're just like I can't.
So I do a prep call, mostly soI can tell them what I want to
hear and what I don't want tohear.
Like please don't give me yourresume, like I don't care, I'm
not going to listen to it and ifI stop listening I'm not going
to ask any more good questions,right?
I actually try to avoid storiesat the very beginning because I
find people are historicallyreally bad at them.
So at the very beginning I'mlike give me a nugget, teach me
(18:10):
something real quick, so thatmyself and the audience are in,
and then later on I'll ask youhow you came upon that knowledge
.
And that's fun, man, somepeople.
One time one of our clients hada pod where their guests went
on like a 10 minute rampageabout like I don't even know
they're just talking about somestory, and they never got to it,
(18:31):
you know they're just sort oflike telling the story that
never ended up.
You have, it's like when youhave those friends who keep
telling a story and you're dude,where's he going with this?
And it's okay if they've beendrinking or something.
You're like, okay, thatexplains it.
But if they haven't, you'relike, dude, where's he going
with this?
And it's okay if they've beendrinking or something.
You're like, oh, okay, thatexplains it.
But if they haven't, you'relike I need to get where's the
exit button for this pod?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I imagine that person you know.
If they had been drinking, youknow how terrible it would be.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, yeah, or maybe it'd be better, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
We don't know answer.
That is true.
I do find that some sociallubricant can help with some of
the podcasts that I've watched,which unfortunately, is not a
reality for me being able to dothings in person, but one day I
think that'd be really fun tohave an in-person podcast,
because it would just changeentirely.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
For me.
You build rapport in the prep,call that other podcasters, like
Rogan's, going to throw awhiskey at you.
Oh look, it's the latestwhiskey from my friend who hunts
deer and he has this whiskey.
It's really good, try it.
Here's a cigar right just tosort of build that rapport and
loosen people up so they'llactually say something or two on
the pod, not just have thoselittle answers.
One of the things I found is ifpeople give you those quick,
(19:35):
little, like quick answers,short answers can really lower
the energy of the pod, and soi'm'm always trying to find,
like, where do I get those likeneedy answers?
And I find that if peoplearen't in that place where their
passion and their expertiseoverlaps, that's when I tend to
get those short answers.
And so, on the prep, I'm alwayslistening for, okay, do they
want to talk about this?
They do.
Okay, cool, can they Do theyhave any layers beneath that?
(19:59):
Or they're like, yeah, I loveSEO.
It's like, no, you don't Likeme, I hate SEO and I know
something about it, so don't askme, because I don't want to
talk about it.
But I could, but I don't want to, but.
Or it's like asking me about aP&L statement.
You know, yeah, I could talkabout it.
Am I experienced as afractional CFO?
No, probably, should ask theminstead, right?
(20:20):
So those topics?
No.
But you know, if you say, casey, tell me about pods, I'm like
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
So, like a prep can be greatfor identifying what you want to
chat about?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, definitely, I think the prep is something that
we could incorporate.
It's just always a function oftime.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
As a business owner.
That's a, that's a bigcomponent and that's also why
you know, I'm sure a lot ofpeople work with you is because
they they don't have the time Imean, like you know, part of its
time, part of its expertise,obviously, but that was why so
many people would work with uswith shopify.
It's not like they couldn'tlearn how to do it or they
couldn't figure it outthemselves.
It would just take them 10times as long and probably, you
know, 10 times as much moneyversus just using an expert to
(21:05):
be able to leverage that.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So you know, I was talking to someone today.
He asked me the same thing.
He's like oh, that makes totalsense, it seems so easy.
And you know the question.
He didn't ask it but it waskind of like so what, why should
I have you guys?
I want to just go to use fiverrin the meantime and I I was
like, dude, go do that.
But the problem is, as you'relearning, you know the 400
episodes between where you're atand where, where you would be
(21:28):
at if you're working with us,like you're going to look like
an idiot.
So that could be okay.
But like, if you want to skipall that, right, even with you.
Like if you want to skip allthe stupid emails and all the
like in all the non-successfulresults, but you know what ends
up happening is people pod fade,right, they don't see those
results right away.
Like no, this is lame.
(21:49):
Only 12 people are listeningand it looks dumb.
And you know I'm just gonna quitand so, yeah, you definitely
want to work with, like the prosif you want it to work that
makes a lot of sense yeah well,I really appreciate you coming
on and joining us um and takingthe time.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I think you know.
The one thing that I'd love foryou to cover before we hop is
just like, as a as a businessowner, what types of businesses
should be thinking aboutpodcasting?
You know, are there?
Are there areas where you'veseen it perform well and others
where it doesn't perform well?
You know who's the one thatshould be contacting you versus
(22:28):
who's the one that should not be.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, it's a great question and I don't have a
flowery answer.
Like everyone, I kind of dofeel like everyone should use it
.
But but the real answer is thatit's it depends on the value of
that connection.
If the guest you're connectingwith could turn into a 20,
typically we say $20,000 or moreeither.
(22:51):
It's like a single deal, it's apartnership, reseller deal, any
kind of relationship that couldbe at least 20K every year for
you, then it's worth it.
Where it tends to fall apart isagain back toward that Rogan
days.
We have done pods for peoplewhere it's a cool concept, but
they have this store and youhave to have a whole bunch of
(23:15):
people listening to have acertain number of people go to
your store, to have a certainnumber of people buy the CBD
there, so just the sheer numberand you're competing now with
everyone else's ears.
You know everyone else'spodcast.
So the B2C can really fallapart.
So B2C has to really thinkabout reseller partners or you
know some co-branded folks orsome folks that might distribute
(23:36):
them or resell them Like.
So you really need to thinkabout a relationship where that
can really work, someone whomight be just driving business
your way and again, I lovepartnerships, so that works
great.
It's just they have to havevalue.
Now, the company that I talkedto recently, where one deal
takes forever but it's $100K,it's a no-brainer Because in
(23:58):
that case our services are likea rounding error.
As a part of that, you knowcost of acquisition.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
I appreciate you walking usthrough it.
I'm obviously a big proponentof podcasts.
I think that they be beneficialwell beyond just who listens to
them.
I mean, it's a source ofcontent, it's a source of, you
know, getting to meet andconnect with new people, and you
(24:26):
know.
The benefits are far beyondjust how many people are
listening to it, though itwouldn't be, you know, the end
of the world if as many peoplethat.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Listen to joe rogan, listen to my podcast and they
should.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, I don't know if I'm that cool, but I'll.
I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I'll take it well, yeah, you do.
You didn't offer many whiskeyor cigar, so yeah, you're almost
there.
Eight out of 10.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Next time round two.
Well, I appreciate you comingon.
Before we hop, can you leteverybody know where they could
find you and connect with?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
you online?
Yeah, totally so.
The website is ringmastercom.
Shoot me a note on chat.
I'm Casey at ringmastercom.
If you just want to pick mybrain on pods and you know hey,
you want to do it yourself.
But like just curious what aresome of the ways that people can
really screw it up?
Just shoot me a note.
I'm happy to give you my advice, shoot you a video, whatever.
How I can, ever I can help.
(25:09):
Pods are great.
I just want to connect theworld, one podcast at a time.
So shoot me a note my podcast,which you.
I want to get you on there sopeople we can link to it one day
.
But yeah, yeah, it's called theHardcore Marketing Show and the
core is spelled like the MarineCorps, so C-O-R-P-S, two words.
So hardcore marketing.
Maybe there's a link in theshow notes.
(25:31):
But either way, check that showout.
That's a lot of what I do andone day, soon, we'll get you on
there, brandon.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Awesome.
I appreciate it.
Well again, thanks for comingon, for everybody listening.
As always, this is BrandonAmoroso.
You can find me atbrandonamorosocom or scalistai.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning into D2Z, a podcast
about using the Gen Z mindset togrow your business.
I'm Gen Z entrepreneur BrandonAmoroso, former founder of
Electric and now the co-founderof Scaless, and today I'm
talking with Casey Chesire,who's the founder and chief
evangelist at RingmasterConversational Marketing
designing, producing andpromoting customer connection
focused B2B podcasts.
(00:22):
Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Thanks, man, great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So before we dive into the world of podcasting
unironically on a podcast, canyou give everybody a quick
background on sort of yourentrepreneurial journey and how
you ended up in this space?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, it all started a few years ago when I was a
child selling raspberries in theneighborhood.
It starts out small, but I hadbeen iterating and trying to
make little companies here andthere for a long time.
But my big breakout was about adecade ago when I launched a
B2B marketing tech agency.
(00:58):
We did a lot of work withSalesforce and Pardot and we
just went from zero to 30employees almost overnight over
the for a couple of years andthen just ran that for about a
decade.
So that was the.
That was the real big one.
But I had a lot of practiceswings before that, um, and then
now we're doing this podcastingbusiness.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
What made that one, the big one versus the small
swings?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's a good question.
Well.
Well, you can only pick so manyraspberries.
But I did some other projects.
You know one example I wrote aplay and I thought let me just
publish that, maybe make a playpublishing company.
I'm not totally understandingthat.
What a play publishing companyis is basically reading a bunch
of shitty plays to find the onediamond in the rough and then,
(01:46):
after you've done all thatfront-loaded work, you publish
it and market it and then maybeyou'll get paid.
So I think a lot of it wasfollowing passion but not
understanding maybe theunderlying business model
beneath a company.
And so that would be a bunch ofthe swings were just following
passion, seeing if you couldmonetize, and then understanding
what the core business was.
(02:06):
Did I want to read a bunch ofbad plays to pick one and then
market the hell out of that andthen have so much front-loaded
cost?
Not really.
So then I realized that was notfor me.
But with the Pardot business, Iloved Pardot and I was using it
in my marketing career just as amarketer.
And so then what ended uphappening is people were like,
hey, that's a great story youtold about turning that company
(02:26):
around using that tool.
Could you help me out with itand so and there was a model
beneath it there was the abilityto have consulting um and great
ratios so you can hire reallygood people, charge a whole
bunch and and grow the company,and then also, I'd say, a great
partner, right.
So we had a huge partner withPardot and eventually became
Salesforce, but they sent us themajority of our deals.
(02:50):
So we had like a very mutualpartnership with them.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's not dissimilar from howmine was able to scale.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, with Shopify, did they send you most of the
love?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Klaviyo, a lot of Klaviyo.
Some Shopify as well, but notas much as Klaviyo.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, there's a huge movement in 2019.
I think it was 2019, 2020, whenthe Shopify-Mailchimp
relationship was deprecated andthey basically told their
merchants you should migrate toKlaviyo.
You know that caused a lot ofmigration, work, a lot of growth
(03:32):
for Klaviyo, not a lot ofservice providers.
Klaviyo Now there's a ton.
You know there are a dime, adozen, but at that time, you
know, it was very much a whitespace for us to dive in Market
timing.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
man is crazy, right, you just hit that market timing
right, but you couldn't just bethere that moment.
There's a little bit of thatgroundwork, the relationships,
establishing some expertise, andthen the market timing flipped
and then it's like grab thefishbowl.
Time to go hire, hire, hire.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, we were already very well steeped in the entire
Shopify ecosystem.
Yeah, yeah, we were alreadyvery well steeped in the entire
Shopify ecosystem.
Yeah, I was just sort of seeingthe writing on the wall that we
should oh we should double downon this and pivot our agency
into just being focused oncustomer experience and
retention marketing, versustrying to do everything for
everyone.
Yeah, being able to pivot intosomething and go head first
(04:26):
versus trying to have our toastin too many or trying to have
our hands in too many baskets.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, picking the battles is tough.
You kind of want to doeverything.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yes, I remember firing my first client and how
weird and bittersweet it wasbecause it was like I'm losing
revenue, but I feel awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I remember the first time I someone asked if they
could, you know, like a la carte, pick apart a program and
instead of doing 12 months Ijust want to do one month, as
like a POC, and my my responsewas no.
And and they didn't go for it.
Neither did I.
I felt so good after that call.
I told everybody I was like Ijust said no, it was awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean the amount of time and hassle that
you saved yourself.
There's almost no chance.
I think that that person wouldhave converted anyways.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Something that I saw all the time the more that you
would bend for somebody to tryand get them across the line,
more often than not it was neverenough.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, it's the whole.
Give the mouse a cookie, youknow, and then they want a glass
of milk, and then they want ablanket, and then a nap, and
then eventually pancakes.
You're like why am I makingpancakes for these people?
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yes, the scope becomes pretty tremendous.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, and I also find there's like an inverse
relationship to that with theirappreciation of it.
The more you, you like sort ofbend and you try to give and be
flexible with that, the lessthey appreciate it, which is
just so counterintuitive.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You're like what do you mean?
Brandon's not available at 3amon Saturday night to deal with
whatever shit I have to sendover?
Now that was a big transitionfor us, especially as we grew.
You know my early clients.
They were used to me 24-7 doinganything and everything for
(06:12):
them.
And then obviously that's not asustainable, like long-term
business model, and so as wegrew, it wasn't me servicing the
account, but also we had tohave sort of guardrails in place
.
You know I couldn't work for $5an hour anymore because I
wasn't just getting started andhelping them out, and that was
definitely a tough, toughtransition.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And it can be tough, especially if you're having fun,
right?
I had a great mentor who mademe calculate it out.
Okay, how much are they payingyou per month?
Cool, what are?
How many hours are they payingyou per month?
Cool, what are, how many hoursdo you think you're doing?
And the math turned into like,oh you're, you're getting paid a
fraction of what your agencywould charge for, like your,
your entry level person.
But I was going like I was justdoing too much and I wasn't,
(06:57):
you know, because I was havingfun.
But it was like, okay, you needto like rein it in and have
some, some guide rails here, soyou're not, you know,
accidentally letting them takeadvantage of you.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, part of that maturation process for our
business was instituting a timetracking process and then our
worst offender was revealed andyou know, especially during
COVID, access to people was soeasy via Slack, email, phone
calls, you know, everybody wasjust always online all the time,
and so I think our effectivehour really late for that client
(07:28):
who was paying us like $20,000a month was like $16 an hour.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Weird right.
You wouldn't think that You'dthink oh, it's a great client.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I know, and without that time tracking I would have
had no idea $16 an hour and youknow the the one-off calls the
slacks here and there the hey.
You know, let me go down to the.
Brandon said no, but let meweasel my way into the.
You know the right personwithin the team to be able to
get them to do something.
For me it was.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
It was never ending you might have been losing money
on that 20k oh, we were forsure.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I mean, it made our top line look better and it made
me feel better but, it.
It didn't actually help orsupport the business, and when
we fired them, the team waspumped and that was the easiest
sign that we had done the rightthing.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Priceless morale building right there Exactly.
You know what top line metrics.
You know, like I, definitelyhave fallen in the trap of like
either revenue or even number ofemployees, being like a almost
like bragging rights when you'reearly in, but then later on you
realize yeah, not really,Because there's some
construction companies with 80%lumber and cogs that might be a
(08:35):
$20 million company, but reallyit's like a $1 million company.
They just have all theirexpenses in there.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Right, exactly, the devil's in the details with
anything.
Yeah, so you did the agencygame for a while while and then
you decided to jump right backin again.
So what was the catalyst forgoing back in?
But also, you know, pivoting tofocus on this B2B podcasting.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
You know I started a podcast many years in for the
business.
I needed thought leadership, Ineeded content.
And you know I'd done the wholething where you'd write a blog
post on LinkedIn and either 12people see it or 1200 people see
it.
But was the difference was like, you know, random sometimes,
and or what image you put onthere which was just so lame.
(09:20):
So I was like what's an easyway to do that?
So I just I just went after it,just launched the podcast, and
there was no group like what wehave now to advise you.
There's like audio nerds,here's the mic to get man, but
no one's there to tell you likehow do you do this as a business
and what business outcomes canyou achieve?
And so I just winged it and Ihad some great success with it.
(09:44):
Man, I used it to.
I know you have a book.
I used it to write my book,interviewing different people.
Each month I had a theme ofpeople that I'd interview and
then I'd combine thoseinterviews into a webinar and
then that webinar became thebasis for the text of the
chapter in each book.
So after 12 months I had 12chapters and all on a theme
around marketing automation.
It worked really well and italso became like a capstone
(10:06):
project.
Everything I know is in thisthing so that I can go on to the
next thing.
But yeah, so a ton of contentthat actually very quickly
became too much content, right.
So content was not an issue thepod ever again, maybe finding
the right content or using themost of it.
But what ended up happeningmagically?
(10:26):
I had this amazing interviewwith this absolutely badass CMO
of a medium-sized SaaS companyand she was awesome, great
conversation.
So I interviewed senior levelmarketers on the pod and and
then she was like, hey, by theway, we're offline right after a
great interview, we'remigrating from Marketo to Pardot
(10:48):
.
I was like, no, kidding, that'swhat we do.
And she's like, really, I'mlike, yeah, and so we didn't
know, neither of us knew thatthat project was happening, but
we just hit it off.
We'd spent like an hour plushour and a half time together
recently, had great deepconversations, and she was like
cool, let's get our teamstogether.
We got our teams together, theyscoped it out and it was like a
(11:09):
friends and family deal.
We were like, just get it done.
And it turned into like an$80,000 deal with no sales cycle
, no competitor shoppinganything.
It was just like, let's do thisdeal for my friend and I told
my team hey, let's take goodcare of them.
And she told her team let'swork with these guys.
And we just made it happen.
I thought that's awesome andthat was on accident.
(11:29):
What if I made that on purpose?
What if I actually selected thekind of guests I wanted to talk
to build relationships with?
Not like, let me trick you intoa call.
It's like no, let me get toknow you and if I can solve some
of your problems, I'm here foryou, right?
So we started handpicking.
We found all the people withPardot in North America.
Right, you know, use a littlebit of you know code tracking to
(11:50):
see who had the code on theirsite.
You know rank, ordered it bysize, invited the top 100
companies that had Pard on,invited all their CMOs to be
guests on my podcast.
And the majority of them saidyes, made some great
relationships, got somefriendships out of them,
partnerships, referrals and alot of customers out of that.
And it was so much fun to do itthat way, right?
(12:12):
Instead of playing all thosegames that we historically have
to play in the marketing world,all those B2B games.
Let me give you a blanket tomeet your boss.
I'm going to give them socksand then they're going to
remember me and then maybethey'll get on a call with my
sales rep, like all this BS.
I was like let's just skip thatand do one of these things
where we just have a pod, weconnect with our customer and we
learn more about them and thenif we can do business and help
(12:35):
each other out, let's do it.
So for me that was just.
It was so different than allthe games I was playing doing
marketing automation.
Then when I had a chance toexit that company, it was like
no brainer, let's do this podthing.
People had started asking methe same way.
They'd asked me to be part onhey, cool story about your
podcast, can you help me withthat too?
I was like I'd love to.
Let's figure this thing out.
(12:55):
So I had a chance to re, re,like, do an iteration again in
another company and start over.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
but but help people launch podcasts what are, you
know, the biggest myths that youthink around podcasts, yeah
it's all about the listenersright and we get this.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know, whether it's b2c, b2, anything, b2g, d2c
, any of these things it's allabout like you get so fixated on
the vanity metrics and wantingto be famous and wanting to have
those stats.
It's so counterintuitive.
If you do it the right way, ifyou make the guest the most
important person, it doesn'tmatter if anyone listens right.
(13:35):
If the listens matter, you'recompeting with Joe Rogan and
he's going to win, and TimFerriss and everyone else.
You're not going to win thatright.
You might.
I know One out of many, many,many people might, but you're
not.
It's like trying to competewith Mr Beast.
It's not going to work, don'tdo it.
But you don't need to becauseif you make it all about your
(14:02):
guest and your guest you knowgoing in is someone you could
actually help out, your teamcould help out then let's make a
relationship with them and ifthe value of the whole program
is in that conversation and aconnection with the guest, then
you've paid for the episode justby having that conversation.
But guess what?
People do actually listen andthey really like when they're
listening to a show.
That's not pandering.
I mean that's one of thereasons why Joe and other people
are successful is they don'tcare if you listen or not, right
(14:25):
.
And so it's like, hey, my guestis most important, I don't care
if you listen or not, the showis for me.
I want to learn, and if youlearn, too cool.
And people appreciate the factthat you're not just like you're
just joined I'm letting youjoin this conversation, but like
you can listen in, butotherwise it's me and this
person right.
And so they appreciate that.
(14:45):
And what's cool is, if yourguest had a great experience
because you made it all aboutthem, they're sharing it with
their tribe, with their network.
Who's then going and listeningto it?
And some of them are going tostay.
So you, organically, aregrowing your pod by not focusing
on organically growing your pod.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
The authenticity shines through as well.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
In the content and I think listeners can pick up on
that, totally that aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Totally If you're not into it.
You know we always our numberone tip for hosts is never ask a
question you don't want to knowthe answer to.
Because if you don't don't ask,because your reaction to that
question will be like oh yeah,great, thanks, or okay, or next
question.
You know it's just like no.
Ask something you actually wantto know and if your audience
can't follow along, that's okay.
They don't need to, they don'tneed to listen.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yeah, that's definitely like training a
muscle memory too.
Yeah, or training like youwould for for a sport.
I think you know, when I firststarted doing the podcast, I
would script all of them youknow have some boilerplate
questions, at the very least,that I could fall back on yeah
but now I think it's actuallymore of a detriment than it is a
(15:53):
positive, because I'd ratherjust have a free-flowing
conversation, and you know itdoesn't.
You can still, as long as youhave your high-level objectives,
the way you're trying to getacross and can arguably sort of
sprinkle it in here and there.
I think that's better thantrying to be super scripted.
Anybody who I have on thepodcast who wants to have all
the questions ahead of time,that's more like an interview.
(16:14):
It's not really a podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's a warning sign .
Right there, that's a red flag.
Hello, podcast.
That's a warning sign.
Right there, that's a red flag.
Hello, red flag.
This might not be the guest foryou.
I need all of your questions inadvance.
Okay, I don't even know whatthe questions are all gonna be.
Um, you know what I like havehaving the first question be the
same every time.
It's like kind of like your,your go-to, especially if it can
(16:36):
just launch your guest into atirade and then maybe have some
milestones after that, but atleast the first one's always
going to be the same and thenyou just let it ride, you just
go from there yeah, I mean,mine's super simple.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's just give us your background.
Yeah, the podcast in and ofitself is about entrepreneurship
and your journey, so and tellus your story.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right?
You asked right at thebeginning what's your story, man
?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
and then from there there's probably 50 different
directions that it could betaken, depending on what that
response is like.
But also on the guest as well,to be an engaged guest and
provide some material.
I've definitely had some peopleon where they answer that
question.
I'm just like man, that was,that was tough.
(17:18):
That was like, uh, you took ittoo far when it comes to
distilling the message into a,you know, a 10 to 15 seconds.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Seriously, man, you know I love doing a prep call on
my pod.
I'm totally, totally got tohave you on my pod and uh, have
you, you know, experienced thattoo?
We can compare and contrast,but like I always do a prep call
, and the reason why is I'veexperienced those things you're
talking about where your guestis just like they're either
unbeknownst to them, they'relike really boring right or they
like have a terrible answerthat you've heard nine times.
(17:48):
You're just like I can't.
So I do a prep call, mostly soI can tell them what I want to
hear and what I don't want tohear.
Like please don't give me yourresume, like I don't care, I'm
not going to listen to it and ifI stop listening I'm not going
to ask any more good questions,right?
I actually try to avoid storiesat the very beginning because I
find people are historicallyreally bad at them.
So at the very beginning I'mlike give me a nugget, teach me
(18:10):
something real quick, so thatmyself and the audience are in,
and then later on I'll ask youhow you came upon that knowledge
.
And that's fun, man, somepeople.
One time one of our clients hada pod where their guests went
on like a 10 minute rampageabout like I don't even know
they're just talking about somestory, and they never got to it,
(18:31):
you know they're just sort oflike telling the story that
never ended up.
You have, it's like when youhave those friends who keep
telling a story and you're dude,where's he going with this?
And it's okay if they've beendrinking or something.
You're like, okay, thatexplains it.
But if they haven't, you'relike, dude, where's he going
with this?
And it's okay if they've beendrinking or something.
You're like, oh, okay, thatexplains it.
But if they haven't, you'relike I need to get where's the
exit button for this pod?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I imagine that person you know.
If they had been drinking, youknow how terrible it would be.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, yeah, or maybe it'd be better, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
We don't know answer.
That is true.
I do find that some sociallubricant can help with some of
the podcasts that I've watched,which unfortunately, is not a
reality for me being able to dothings in person, but one day I
think that'd be really fun tohave an in-person podcast,
because it would just changeentirely.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
For me.
You build rapport in the prep,call that other podcasters, like
Rogan's, going to throw awhiskey at you.
Oh look, it's the latestwhiskey from my friend who hunts
deer and he has this whiskey.
It's really good, try it.
Here's a cigar right just tosort of build that rapport and
loosen people up so they'llactually say something or two on
the pod, not just have thoselittle answers.
One of the things I found is ifpeople give you those quick,
(19:35):
little, like quick answers,short answers can really lower
the energy of the pod, and soi'm'm always trying to find,
like, where do I get those likeneedy answers?
And I find that if peoplearen't in that place where their
passion and their expertiseoverlaps, that's when I tend to
get those short answers.
And so, on the prep, I'm alwayslistening for, okay, do they
want to talk about this?
They do.
Okay, cool, can they Do theyhave any layers beneath that?
(19:59):
Or they're like, yeah, I loveSEO.
It's like, no, you don't Likeme, I hate SEO and I know
something about it, so don't askme, because I don't want to
talk about it.
But I could, but I don't want to, but.
Or it's like asking me about aP&L statement.
You know, yeah, I could talkabout it.
Am I experienced as afractional CFO?
No, probably, should ask theminstead, right?
(20:20):
So those topics?
No.
But you know, if you say, casey, tell me about pods, I'm like
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
So, like a prep can be greatfor identifying what you want to
chat about?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, definitely, I think the prep is something that
we could incorporate.
It's just always a function oftime.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
As a business owner.
That's a, that's a bigcomponent and that's also why
you know, I'm sure a lot ofpeople work with you is because
they they don't have the time Imean, like you know, part of its
time, part of its expertise,obviously, but that was why so
many people would work with uswith shopify.
It's not like they couldn'tlearn how to do it or they
couldn't figure it outthemselves.
It would just take them 10times as long and probably, you
know, 10 times as much moneyversus just using an expert to
(21:05):
be able to leverage that.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So you know, I was talking to someone today.
He asked me the same thing.
He's like oh, that makes totalsense, it seems so easy.
And you know the question.
He didn't ask it but it waskind of like so what, why should
I have you guys?
I want to just go to use fiverrin the meantime and I I was
like, dude, go do that.
But the problem is, as you'relearning, you know the 400
episodes between where you're atand where, where you would be
(21:28):
at if you're working with us,like you're going to look like
an idiot.
So that could be okay.
But like, if you want to skipall that, right, even with you.
Like if you want to skip allthe stupid emails and all the
like in all the non-successfulresults, but you know what ends
up happening is people pod fade,right, they don't see those
results right away.
Like no, this is lame.
(21:49):
Only 12 people are listeningand it looks dumb.
And you know I'm just gonna quitand so, yeah, you definitely
want to work with, like the prosif you want it to work that
makes a lot of sense yeah well,I really appreciate you coming
on and joining us um and takingthe time.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I think you know.
The one thing that I'd love foryou to cover before we hop is
just like, as a as a businessowner, what types of businesses
should be thinking aboutpodcasting?
You know, are there?
Are there areas where you'veseen it perform well and others
where it doesn't perform well?
You know who's the one thatshould be contacting you versus
(22:28):
who's the one that should not be.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, it's a great question and I don't have a
flowery answer.
Like everyone, I kind of dofeel like everyone should use it
.
But but the real answer is thatit's it depends on the value of
that connection.
If the guest you're connectingwith could turn into a 20,
typically we say $20,000 or moreeither.
(22:51):
It's like a single deal, it's apartnership, reseller deal, any
kind of relationship that couldbe at least 20K every year for
you, then it's worth it.
Where it tends to fall apart isagain back toward that Rogan
days.
We have done pods for peoplewhere it's a cool concept, but
they have this store and youhave to have a whole bunch of
(23:15):
people listening to have acertain number of people go to
your store, to have a certainnumber of people buy the CBD
there, so just the sheer numberand you're competing now with
everyone else's ears.
You know everyone else'spodcast.
So the B2C can really fallapart.
So B2C has to really thinkabout reseller partners or you
know some co-branded folks orsome folks that might distribute
(23:36):
them or resell them Like.
So you really need to thinkabout a relationship where that
can really work, someone whomight be just driving business
your way and again, I lovepartnerships, so that works
great.
It's just they have to havevalue.
Now, the company that I talkedto recently, where one deal
takes forever but it's $100K,it's a no-brainer Because in
(23:58):
that case our services are likea rounding error.
As a part of that, you knowcost of acquisition.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
I appreciate you walking usthrough it.
I'm obviously a big proponentof podcasts.
I think that they be beneficialwell beyond just who listens to
them.
I mean, it's a source ofcontent, it's a source of, you
know, getting to meet andconnect with new people, and you
(24:26):
know.
The benefits are far beyondjust how many people are
listening to it, though itwouldn't be, you know, the end
of the world if as many peoplethat.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Listen to joe rogan, listen to my podcast and they
should.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, I don't know if I'm that cool, but I'll.
I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I'll take it well, yeah, you do.
You didn't offer many whiskeyor cigar, so yeah, you're almost
there.
Eight out of 10.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Next time round two.
Well, I appreciate you comingon.
Before we hop, can you leteverybody know where they could
find you and connect with?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
you online?
Yeah, totally so.
The website is ringmastercom.
Shoot me a note on chat.
I'm Casey at ringmastercom.
If you just want to pick mybrain on pods and you know hey,
you want to do it yourself.
But like just curious what aresome of the ways that people can
really screw it up?
Just shoot me a note.
I'm happy to give you my advice, shoot you a video, whatever.
How I can, ever I can help.
(25:09):
Pods are great.
I just want to connect theworld, one podcast at a time.
So shoot me a note my podcast,which you.
I want to get you on there sopeople we can link to it one day
.
But yeah, yeah, it's called theHardcore Marketing Show and the
core is spelled like the MarineCorps, so C-O-R-P-S, two words.
So hardcore marketing.
Maybe there's a link in theshow notes.
(25:31):
But either way, check that showout.
That's a lot of what I do andone day, soon, we'll get you on
there, brandon.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Awesome.
I appreciate it.
Well again, thanks for comingon, for everybody listening.
As always, this is BrandonAmoroso.
You can find me atbrandonamorosocom or scalistai.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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