March 24, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of The D2Z Podcast, host Brandon Amoroso speaks with Jamie Schwartzman, Chief Creative Strategist of Flux Branding, about the importance of branding in entrepreneurship, the evolution of marketing, and the role of AI in creative processes. Jamie shares insights from his extensive experience in branding, emphasizing the need for authenticity and passion in work. They discuss the challenges of balancing business ownership with personal interests, the shift to remote work, and the future of AI in branding and creativity.
Here's What You'll Learn:
❗Jamie Schwartzman emphasizes the importance of authenticity in branding.
❗Branding is about discovering identity, not just graphic design.
❗The journey of entrepreneurship requires passion and love for the work.
❗AI can serve as a powerful writing assistant in branding.
❗Finding your expertise is crucial for long-term success.
❗10,000 hours is needed to become an expert in any field.
❗Remote work requires conscious team-building efforts.
❗The future of branding will heavily involve AI technologies.
❗Passion projects can lead to greater satisfaction in work.
❗Generosity in business can lead to unexpected rewards.
Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction to Entrepreneurship and Branding
01:54 - Lessons from 25 Years in Branding
04:46 - The Importance of Brand in Business
08:21 - Finding Passion in Work
11:18 - Navigating the Entrepreneurial Journey
14:54 - Balancing Business Ownership and Passion
18:13 - The Shift to Remote Work
22:31 - Leveraging AI in Branding
26:49 - The Future of AI and Creativity
28:05 - Conclusion and Resources
Jamie Schwartzman:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamieschwartzman/
Flux Branding:
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/company/flux-branding/
Website - https://fluxbranding.com/
Brandon Amoroso:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonamoroso/
Web - https://brandonamoroso.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/bamoroso11/
X - https://twitter.com/AmorosoBrandon
Scalis.ai - https://scalis.ai/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in to D2Z, the
podcast about using the Gen Zmindset to grow your business.
I'm Gen Z entrepreneur BrandonAmoroso, former founder of
Electric and now the co-founderof Scaleless, and today I'm
talking with Jamie Swartzman,who's the chief creative
strategy of Flux Branding.
Thanks for coming on the show,hey Brandon.
Thanks for having me.
So, before we dive into theworld of entrepreneurship and
(00:24):
branding best practices, can yougive everybody a quick
background on sort of your ownentrepreneurial journey and path
?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, sure.
So you know I represent alittle bit of an older
generation, but I've been anentrepreneur for my entire life.
You know, I just kind of foundthat.
You know I wasn't really cutout to work for other people.
I'd say the two toughest wordsfor me are my boss.
So having my own studio, havingmy own thing, has really
(00:52):
afforded me a really great kindof lifestyle where I'm in
control of my own destiny.
Maybe I could have made somemore money if I'd have worked at
a big company, but I think forme, having the right kind of
life and owning my future hasreally been the priority.
So I started as a designer, gota degree in fine arts, master's
(01:12):
in fine arts at UCLA in LosAngeles and started designing
product and showed product tosomebody and they said hey, we
think we want to buy this.
Before you know it, I've got afactory and I've got 25 people
working for me and we're makingproduct and selling product.
And really I think I got intobranding by being a product
designer right, realizing thatthe product alone wasn't enough.
(01:35):
There had to be a story behindit, there had to be a brand
behind it.
And so I sold that company at aprofit which was kind of nice.
Bought my first house andworked for a couple other people
, got into digital and thenstarted the agency around year
2000.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What have been the biggest lessons or learnings
that you've taken from theagency over the past 25 years?
Especially how has that evolved?
Because you've gone throughquite a few cycles, so what does
that look like?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, totally so.
I would say the best advicethat I was given was by an
architect who I really respect.
This was Ted Tanaka, and I wasprobably in my late 30s at the
time and he said, jamie, justmake sure that by the time
you're 50, you're an expert insomething.
And so I think, really, theadvice there was to you know,
find your expertise, find aplace where you can really call
(02:32):
yourself an expert and becomeknowledgeable in it and become
known for that.
And so for me, at that time, Idecided it was going to be brand
and go into branding.
And you know, branding, I wouldsay at the time I got into it,
was not well understood.
A lot of people confusedbranding with graphic design.
People confused branding withthe logo, right.
(02:55):
But branding is a much greaterdiscipline of discovering
identity.
And if you or I were to go andgo into therapy and try to
figure out who we are and whatour identity is, it's a deep
dive, right.
It's a spiritual journey tofigure out who we are.
And we do the same things withcompanies.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
What does you know?
You mentioned that it's notgraphic design, it's not a logo.
What are some of the tangiblethings that would come out of
brand in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
So I think what happened isthat marketing became really
analytic, and particularly withthe advent of digital
technologies, performance anddriving sort of managing
investment around marketingdrove it to be much more
analytical and the creativeaspect of it really needed a
(03:52):
different center, a differentplace to live, and I believe
that that's what's becomebranding.
So I look at any kind oftransaction of going from an
idea to revenues follows intothree different buckets.
It goes from branding tomarketing, to sales, and so I
think about this chain ofbranding, marketing, sales right
In branding we're gettingpeople to understand or feel
(04:16):
something right and try to getthe right kind of people engaged
, so then marketing can generatea lead around that, so then
marketing can generate a leadaround that and that sales then
can close that lead that youknow is more relevant or more
likely to actually generate atransaction.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So you know, I would say that branding is about
getting qualified prospects inso that you don't have to do
quite as much sorting, and itmakes it easier for sales to
focus on leads that can close.
Where do you see companiestypically trip up when it comes
to brand or branding, or do youthink that half the time they
think they have it but theydon't actually have it?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, I think it depends a lot on the life cycle
and where you are in the stateof the company.
Right In early stages, whenyou're just starting out, I
really think the focus has to beon sales and revenues, just to
get out the door right butpretty quickly.
What can happen, I think, iscompanies start to invest too
much money in sales and notenough in brand, and so that
marketing starts to generate alot of opportunities and
(05:25):
prospects that aren't reallywithin the core capabilities and
might not be the right kind ofbusiness.
So I think that's a big placethere.
The second is, if we're goinginto a competitive market and
we're trying to differentiatethe product across other things,
that might be more commodity.
Brand is a great way to elevateperception and develop a real
(05:47):
loyal fan base of people thatrecognize what they're selling.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I mean my new business is pretty early and so
I think for us, brand issomething that we will grow into
.
But to your point, know itreally is.
At this point, you know justsales and revenue, that really
is what matters.
But I think you need someaspect of brand.
I mean, like we've had internalexercises around how we want to
(06:16):
do, like messaging, or what wewant our identity to be.
But I mean it's by no means inany way, like you know, done by
an expert or perfect, but thathas to happen.
Because I remember you heardthe book Building a Brand Story.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Sure Brand Story is a great.
I love that book.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So I read that book in 2020, beginning of 2020.
I'd had my Shopify Plus agencyfor about a year and a half.
I was just graduating from USC.
Actually, so, right down theroad from you, just a little bit
of a rivalry there.
You're tragic, yep, and youknow that completely transformed
(06:54):
everything that we did as a asa business.
Not just the website, which waschanged significantly, cause I
just was like, well, let me putmyself in the shoes of somebody
else coming here for the firsttime, like this doesn't make any
sense.
Like.
This is completely confusingand I don't even understand how
I let this go up on the websiteto begin with.
So that got completelyoverhauled, but also our service
(07:15):
offers or service offeringcompletely changed, as well as a
by-product of the work that wedid like from from reading that
book.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think brand has to be authentic and
it has to really come fromwithin and be just a way to
reveal the authentic brilliancethat's really within every
different organization.
And I think the big mistakethat some companies make is by
trying to engineer a brand thatthey think people are gonna like
.
Right, I think brand, I think abrand.
Again, when you come back toidentity, you know I'm the best
(07:50):
Jamie when I come off as Jamieand I don't try to be somebody
I'm not, and you know I can try.
I can try to fake it, I can tryto put on a false front, but in
the end it's exhausting.
It's so energy intensive to dothat.
I'll eventually revert back towho I am.
It's so energy intensive to dothat I'll eventually revert back
to who I am.
So what we do when we're doingbranding is really work with our
(08:12):
clients to help them figure outwho they are, what's brilliant
about what they're doing, andthen just reveal that to the
world.
It's pretty simple.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What would you say?
What's your favorite projectever?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
The one that really sticks out to you.
Well, I mean, for me myfavorite project is the one that
I'm working on right now.
So it's always that way.
And you know, we just got areally interesting new client.
They are in the aquaculturebusiness, so they're growing
fish business, so they'regrowing fish.
So I just got back from Ensenada, mexico, yesterday, going on a
(08:52):
boat with 10 chefs out to theaquaculture farms, pulling out
the steelhead, bringing it intoa restaurant, 10 chefs who are
working on the fish, slicing it,making sashimi, making great
flavors, talking to chefs aboutfood and flavor.
I mean there's no betterpossible place to be.
I love food, I love flavor, andgetting to work with brands who
(09:13):
are trying to make a differencein the world doing sustainable
farming, trying to do somethingthat's great flavor and doing
something new, I mean that'sjust a total kick.
But I would say it's not alwaysthat and this is another thing
too for anybody who's thinkingabout being an entrepreneur in
this business is it's all aboutgetting into what the client's
(09:34):
doing, and sometimes it is asuninteresting as insurance
services right, and finding someway to understand the passion
and motivation that's drivingsomebody to do insurance
products right.
So I would say try to bringthat same spirit.
(09:54):
It's certainly easy when I'mworking on Steelhead, right, and
you know, going into the Vallede Guadalupe and having, you
know, dinners at Michelin starrestaurants but I try to bring
that same sort of energy andpassion when I'm working with
anybody.
Maybe they're building amultifamily residence project,
maybe they're doing constructionthere's so many different
(10:16):
places that we play in but Iwould say the same energy should
come to it and for everybodywho's in it love your work,
right, love your work.
I wake up Mondays and I'm notresenting Monday, right.
I wake up Monday.
I'm like cool, this is going tobe a great week.
And if anything, I would say Iwas starting to resent my
Fridays.
I'm like man, we didn't getenough done and like really, I
(10:38):
can have a weekend now.
So I think you know reallyloving what you do.
That's the key and that's whatwill make it sustainable.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So you know riffing off of that.
How do you get to that point?
You know you've obviously werefortunate to have that path and
you know you've obviously beensuccessful for a very long time.
And what is your passion?
There's definitely a lot ofpeople who are still trying to
figure that out.
So you know what was thatjourney like for you and for
those that are listening.
How can they sort of navigatethat and get to the ideal, which
is oh wow, it's Friday.
(11:13):
This sucks versus thank God,it's Friday.
I need to get the hell out ofhere.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, I think it's, first of all, it's having
balance across all disciplinesof life.
I don't think there's any oneanswer right.
And for me, look, I'm 62.
Okay, so this is what 62 lookslike, you know, in 2025.
And I have a lot of differentthings that I do.
There's no one answer right.
It's multimodal, a lot ofdifferent things.
(11:41):
So I would say, have multipleinputs.
Be not trying to find theanswer just in work, just in
career, right, you know, docreative things, get inspired,
go outside, you know, see art,listen to music, hang out with
friends, learn to cook, havepassions right, and so it all
(12:01):
works together.
And then, along that, justrealize where is your gift?
I mean, the classic book hereis what Colors your Parachute,
(12:26):
right, and I think, for anybodywho is and this is probably, I
don't know, it's in its 25thedition Branding.
We're not a full service agency.
We don't want to do that.
And I think about it in terms ofalmost like you know, if I was
a tennis player and I had awrist injury, I wouldn't go to a
(12:48):
general practitioner, I wouldgo to a specialist.
In fact, I might even jump on aplane and take a drive.
You know, take a ride 3,000miles to go see that specialist.
So how can you be thatspecialist, right?
How can you learn to be anexpert in what you're doing and
be that specialist?
And that's going to be thedifferentiator.
The benefit today, with theinternet and matching, is that
(13:10):
it's easier and easier for smartpeople to act as quarterbacks.
Pull together a team of playersthat are experts in different
areas, right, you know, thelinebacker doesn't have to be
the same as the receiver.
Different kinds of talents.
So find out where's your talent, what do you enjoy doing?
(13:32):
And and and stick with it.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, I think the sticking with a component is
really important to highlight.
In today's age of instantgratification and you know, if
you you went on social, you'dexpect to be able to snap your
fingers and become a billionaireentrepreneur it seems like yeah
, it's 10,000 hours, right.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So 10,000 hours, and that's also part of why it's so
important to enjoy the workright.
To enjoy the work and stickwith it and listen.
It can be tough.
Times change.
I think we're in a time ofgreat change right now.
Our agency is called Flux for areason.
Typically when people need whatwe do, something's changing,
(14:17):
and we're in a tremendous timeof change right now.
I believe that the change thatwe're seeing is all fueled by
technology, in specificcommunications technology, and
this is a time wherecommunications can be highly
effective and coming up with theright strategies for
(14:39):
communicating is difficult.
There's a lot of differentthings that can be done, but if
you can figure out that recipeand you can start testing with
it, the opportunity forresonating has never been
greater.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
How do you balance being a business owner while
also still getting to do whatyou love?
Because one of the things thatI found out pretty early on is
that it really is not thatglamorous.
There's a whole bunch of shitthat you have to deal with that
has nothing to do with what itis that you actually like to do.
But then I kind of actuallysort of fell in love more with
(15:15):
the process of business thannecessarily the business itself.
And so then that's when I waslike you know, clearly I'm not
going to be a marketing agencyguy forever and then ended up
selling that company.
So for me it's more about, youknow, I love business.
It doesn't necessarily matterso much what it is that the
business is.
It's the process of creatingand, you know, being around the
team and all of that.
(15:36):
But it definitely wasn't thatway and it still isn't that way
in certain instances.
So how do you manage that anddeal with that?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, I think having a team helps, right, Having a
team helps and not trying to doit all myself really is a big
difference.
So I don't operate as asolopreneur, I have a small team
.
I would say that I've been ableto make my team smaller since
the pandemic.
We used to be a studio-basedorganization.
(16:07):
I had a cool loft in downtownLA, a room full of Macs, some
dogs, coffee drinks, all thatkind of stuff.
It was amazing, it was great.
And in the pandemic we pivotedto being virtual and with
virtual now we have a muchsmaller, more lean organization
where we use a lot moreoutsiders, and so that's really
(16:33):
been liberating, I would say,because we do need to have
multiple people and contributorscoming in, but they're also,
when those people are employees,there's a lot of administrative
load and overhead required forthat.
So, you know, we've been able,I would say, to shift away from
(16:55):
that kind of administrative load, right of dealing with HR
related things, and instead nowwe've sort of put that same
energy towards projectmanagement, organization and how
do we work as a team still,when we're not in the same room?
Look, it was a lot easier whenI could walk out of my office,
(17:16):
go into the studio, sit downwith the designers, chat about
stuff, go into the conferenceroom.
Right now we're much morescheduled about things and if I
were to show you my schedule,you know it's pretty much every
30 minutes Boom boom, boom, boom.
So I spend most of my day now,you know, on virtual meetings.
It's kind of nice.
You don't have to spend twohours in the car driving around.
(17:39):
I can work kind of fromanywhere.
And I would say now for ourteam members, they really
appreciate that too.
Now, at the same time, I'm gladthat I did have that time of
working with other people, ofbeing in a social environment,
because I think there's a lot ofthings that occur and people
grow in different ways when theyhave to deal with other people,
(18:02):
deal with other personalities,learn to get along.
So it'll be interesting to seehow things develop and evolve in
this new paradigm.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, I think it's very like vertical and industry
specific.
You know, whether it's stayingremote, going hybrid, even going
back to full-time altogether.
The one thing I do see prettyconsistently, though, is if you
just graduated school this isjust my opinion, but I would
avoid remote like the plagueYou're 22, 23, maybe you're
(18:35):
still living at home.
We've tried to bring some ofthose team members into the
previous business, because thebusiness that acquired us was
fully remote.
We weren't, we were all basedin San Diego.
You don't get the socialcamaraderie, you don't get to do
the networking, you don't getto have that friendship outlet
too.
That's a huge component of yourearly career, is an identity.
(19:01):
For more experienced people orfor people with families, you
know it's a huge time savingsand a huge benefit to be able to
work remotely.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that we have to do things
consciously, to do team building, and even though that we're
remote and we've got people allover the world, we have a three
times a week touch base.
So we meet three times a weekwhat we call our hot sheet
meeting, and during hot sheet,that's when we talk about what's
going on.
You know, look at, look at whatneeds to get done in the next
(19:31):
couple of days, and we kind ofneed to do that round.
Robin, sure, you could log intothe system and you could see
your actions.
Right, they're all in there,they're all marked, but there's
still something about havingthat dialogue and communicating.
Definitely, for creative andfor what we do in branding,
there's a lot of just what wecall workshopping, where we get
(19:56):
together, we talk about thingsand it's done virtual right,
which works pretty well,surprisingly well.
Okay, I love being in the sameroom, but when we're virtual
like this, everybody has a frontrow seat.
Also, when we're virtual likethis, in many cases we can do
transcription, and we alwaystypically do transcription, and
(20:20):
that allows us then to use anumber of new tools.
Ai is an important tool for us.
We use it extensively, but notin the way that I think people
would imagine you use AI.
Ai is not something you press abutton.
It gives you an answer.
What AI does is it helps ussynthesize a lot of content and
(20:41):
bring it down, and boil it downand at least get us to a good,
solid draft.
The draft then is, you know,always manicured by hand, but
allowing that to come in isimportant.
I'll give you an example.
So we have a large insuranceservices client I mentioned to
you.
They're in Boca Raton and wewere brought aboard by the CEO
(21:06):
who was installed by Equity tofix this company.
And when he first got in thisis a CEO I've worked with
extensively One of his firstcalls was to me I need to get a
lay of the land.
We organized a two-day off-siteretreat session with 14 of
(21:28):
their top executives.
I use markers and whiteboards tomarker up things and sort of
figure it out.
But prior to that I didin-depth interviews with 14
executives, used thetranscriptions into AI to
synthesize and it was a commondiscussion guide that I used for
all 14 of the differentexecutives.
(21:49):
Then I was able to use AI tosort of pull together common
themes and common threads acrossthese different elements and
use that to generate a 60 pagereport that gave a state of
what's going on, where are thechallenges, and the AI was also
able to weight the responsesdifferently depending on the
(22:13):
role and title of thatindividual.
So the C-suite guys wereweighted more heavily than the
manager guys and that reallyprovided a very interesting
viewpoint that you know.
I could have done it by hand,but it saved me a lot of time to
do it and use the AI tosynthesize.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, the ability to like just intake all that data
is extremely valuable.
You know, it saves me atremendous amount of time when
it comes to things like that andthat's a really cool use case.
I love the weighting component.
My new business does a lot ofthat with recruiting and
candidate placement andmanagement, and there's a whole
(22:52):
system of various weights andthe weights change based off the
company, et cetera.
So that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So that's really cool divisions of the company to try
to keep the brand somehowconsistent.
(23:18):
I think that these are movingnow into digital platforms.
We use a platform called Auroraand Aurora provides different
workspaces for each of ourclients.
Each of those workspaces haveits own private knowledge base.
So as we're developing things,we're adding it to this
knowledge base and the knowledgebase then informs each of the
(23:40):
chats moving forward.
Plus, we can develop what arethese smart flows?
And to do detailed descriptionsof products, a short
description of the product, athree-word description, a
(24:05):
one-sentence description, ashort paragraph, the reasons why
you should have the product,what are the features of the
product, what are the benefitsof the product, and all of that
stuff can be generated based on,you know, the assembly of prior
materials going into theknowledge base, and this is
really like a huge time saverfor us and, I would say, also
(24:28):
provides the opportunity to handoff those systems to the client
in the future so that they havethe ability to keep the brand
consistent and generate morestuff.
That's on brand.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, I love that and you know you.
Your expertise and value can beamplified because you can spend
more time on the tinkering andthe refinement than necessarily
like just getting the basics outthere.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think learning to be a great prompter
is, you know, going to behighly valued.
I look at the AI as a writingassistant right, and I've had, I
always have writing assistants.
The thing about this one is itjust works really fast.
It works really fast and I canget a new draft going in you
(25:10):
know minute or seconds it's notalways on.
You know, I have to go through alot of different iterations and
drafts to get something, but itdoes a pretty good job.
And also, I don I have to gothrough a lot of different
iterations and drafts to getsomething, but it does a pretty
good job.
And also, I don't have to beoverly specific.
I have to be specific enough.
I guess it's not that I don'tthat I have to be specific, but
I don't have to be ordered andlogical.
(25:32):
I can throw a lot of stream ofconsciousness at the AI and it
can somehow seem to make senseof my random, juxtaposed,
unusual thought process andultimately that's what it can't
do, right, it can't do that kindof creative process.
Example I was doing a.
(25:53):
It was a 10 part email series,right, a training series, and
they just were starting to getreally boring.
It was formatting them all thesame.
It had three bullet points, ithad a numbered list, but just
everything was coming out veryuniform.
So I was able then to work withit and say, listen, for this
(26:13):
particular one, let's use aGreek myth, a Greek myth that
exemplifies what we're trying todo.
So it brought in something.
You know, I think it was Icarusor something, one of these
great myths to help tell thestory.
And these are the different, oranother one I said you know,
write a bedtime fairy tale.
So there's just differentthings that it wouldn't
(26:34):
necessarily think about.
And this is how I believe thatyou know, we as humans, the
human creative brain, will fusewith the analytic brain of the
AI to really do some interestingand exciting things.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it feels like we're just at the sort of
frontier of what is possiblewith it, so we're in for quite
the ride.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah Well, you know, I remember.
You know listening to the modemand having it connect, and you
know using Netscape Navigator.
These are the early days of theinternet, and looking at it and
going this is going to changeeverything, I would say the way
I feel about AI is even more.
It's even a greater sense ofwonder on what's going to happen
(27:20):
with AI.
I too share concerns about it,but ultimately I'm an optimist.
I tend to look at theoptimistic side of the world,
but I would say it's a tool.
It's any tool.
You know a chainsaw right.
Use a chainsaw to.
You know, trim the trees.
I can use it for the Texaschainsaw massacre.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I like that.
I'm going to steal that one.
Well, listen, I reallyappreciate you coming on and
sharing your insights.
I think there's a lot of reallygreat value here, especially
from a branding perspective andhow to leverage AI to help
assist in that creative processin a really unique way.
But before we hop, can you leteverybody know where they can
reach you or get connected withyour business online?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, totally.
So we've got some really coolthings, some free stuff, on our
website that I would encourageyou to go over to and check out.
So go to fluxbrandingcom You'llsee a little yellow button up
there.
Answer six questions and wegenerate a report on your brand
personality type and your brandpersonality type.
It's a version of brandarchetypes, but it's related to
(28:28):
brand story and who you are,what your character is.
If you put in your email, we'llsend you the report.
You get the answer right onthere immediately.
Also, if you're a bigger brandand you have a team, I encourage
you to send me an email and youcan send it to me.
It's Jamie J-A-M-I-E atfluxbrandingcom.
Put the name of this podcast inthe subject and I'll do a 30
(28:53):
minute session with you andgenerate a brand blueprint
report which will kind of helpgive you a roadmap.
And we do that complimentary.
I love learning about newbusinesses.
I love making a contribution.
One of our core values is wehave a spirit of generosity.
I do believe the more we give,the more we get, and I encourage
(29:14):
everybody to have that sameattitude.
Right, it's like where can youmake?
Where can you make acontribution?
I don't know.
Somehow it all comes back to me.
Once in a while I get takenadvantage of, but that's in the
minority.
I get much more out of it thanI lose.
So if you're interested in thebrand Blueprint, please send me
an email and I'd love to meetyou.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Awesome, I really appreciate it.
I might have to take you up onthat myself.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You're great Thanks for doing this and I think it's
great that you're doing thepodcast.
And I would say, you know, foryou know, for young people out
there, it's so easy to getpolarized.
You know, we're really enteringan era of just tremendous
polarization and just there's alot of gray out there.
Right, there's a lot of graybetween the blacks and the
whites and uh, you know, justbecause things can look so
(30:04):
horrible out there, there's alsoincredible great good going on
right now.
So we're in a, you know, justthere's a lot, there's a lot of
shades of color happening rightnow.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I agree.
Well, again, thank you forcoming on, for For everybody
listening, as always, this isBrandon Amoroso.
You can find me atBrandonAmorosocom or Scalistai.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in to D2Z, the
podcast about using the Gen Zmindset to grow your business.
I'm Gen Z entrepreneur BrandonAmoroso, former founder of
Electric and now the co-founderof Scaleless, and today I'm
talking with Jamie Swartzman,who's the chief creative
strategy of Flux Branding.
Thanks for coming on the show,hey Brandon.
Thanks for having me.
So, before we dive into theworld of entrepreneurship and
(00:24):
branding best practices, can yougive everybody a quick
background on sort of your ownentrepreneurial journey and path
?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, sure.
So you know I represent alittle bit of an older
generation, but I've been anentrepreneur for my entire life.
You know, I just kind of foundthat.
You know I wasn't really cutout to work for other people.
I'd say the two toughest wordsfor me are my boss.
So having my own studio, havingmy own thing, has really
(00:52):
afforded me a really great kindof lifestyle where I'm in
control of my own destiny.
Maybe I could have made somemore money if I'd have worked at
a big company, but I think forme, having the right kind of
life and owning my future hasreally been the priority.
So I started as a designer, gota degree in fine arts, master's
(01:12):
in fine arts at UCLA in LosAngeles and started designing
product and showed product tosomebody and they said hey, we
think we want to buy this.
Before you know it, I've got afactory and I've got 25 people
working for me and we're makingproduct and selling product.
And really I think I got intobranding by being a product
designer right, realizing thatthe product alone wasn't enough.
(01:35):
There had to be a story behindit, there had to be a brand
behind it.
And so I sold that company at aprofit which was kind of nice.
Bought my first house andworked for a couple other people
, got into digital and thenstarted the agency around year
2000.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What have been the biggest lessons or learnings
that you've taken from theagency over the past 25 years?
Especially how has that evolved?
Because you've gone throughquite a few cycles, so what does
that look like?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, totally so.
I would say the best advicethat I was given was by an
architect who I really respect.
This was Ted Tanaka, and I wasprobably in my late 30s at the
time and he said, jamie, justmake sure that by the time
you're 50, you're an expert insomething.
And so I think, really, theadvice there was to you know,
find your expertise, find aplace where you can really call
(02:32):
yourself an expert and becomeknowledgeable in it and become
known for that.
And so for me, at that time, Idecided it was going to be brand
and go into branding.
And you know, branding, I wouldsay at the time I got into it,
was not well understood.
A lot of people confusedbranding with graphic design.
People confused branding withthe logo, right.
(02:55):
But branding is a much greaterdiscipline of discovering
identity.
And if you or I were to go andgo into therapy and try to
figure out who we are and whatour identity is, it's a deep
dive, right.
It's a spiritual journey tofigure out who we are.
And we do the same things withcompanies.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
What does you know?
You mentioned that it's notgraphic design, it's not a logo.
What are some of the tangiblethings that would come out of
brand in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
So I think what happened isthat marketing became really
analytic, and particularly withthe advent of digital
technologies, performance anddriving sort of managing
investment around marketingdrove it to be much more
analytical and the creativeaspect of it really needed a
(03:52):
different center, a differentplace to live, and I believe
that that's what's becomebranding.
So I look at any kind oftransaction of going from an
idea to revenues follows intothree different buckets.
It goes from branding tomarketing, to sales, and so I
think about this chain ofbranding, marketing, sales right
In branding we're gettingpeople to understand or feel
(04:16):
something right and try to getthe right kind of people engaged
, so then marketing can generatea lead around that, so then
marketing can generate a leadaround that and that sales then
can close that lead that youknow is more relevant or more
likely to actually generate atransaction.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So you know, I would say that branding is about
getting qualified prospects inso that you don't have to do
quite as much sorting, and itmakes it easier for sales to
focus on leads that can close.
Where do you see companiestypically trip up when it comes
to brand or branding, or do youthink that half the time they
think they have it but theydon't actually have it?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, I think it depends a lot on the life cycle
and where you are in the stateof the company.
Right In early stages, whenyou're just starting out, I
really think the focus has to beon sales and revenues, just to
get out the door right butpretty quickly.
What can happen, I think, iscompanies start to invest too
much money in sales and notenough in brand, and so that
marketing starts to generate alot of opportunities and
(05:25):
prospects that aren't reallywithin the core capabilities and
might not be the right kind ofbusiness.
So I think that's a big placethere.
The second is, if we're goinginto a competitive market and
we're trying to differentiatethe product across other things,
that might be more commodity.
Brand is a great way to elevateperception and develop a real
(05:47):
loyal fan base of people thatrecognize what they're selling.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I mean my new business is pretty early and so
I think for us, brand issomething that we will grow into
.
But to your point, know itreally is.
At this point, you know justsales and revenue, that really
is what matters.
But I think you need someaspect of brand.
I mean, like we've had internalexercises around how we want to
(06:16):
do, like messaging, or what wewant our identity to be.
But I mean it's by no means inany way, like you know, done by
an expert or perfect, but thathas to happen.
Because I remember you heardthe book Building a Brand Story.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Sure Brand Story is a great.
I love that book.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So I read that book in 2020, beginning of 2020.
I'd had my Shopify Plus agencyfor about a year and a half.
I was just graduating from USC.
Actually, so, right down theroad from you, just a little bit
of a rivalry there.
You're tragic, yep, and youknow that completely transformed
(06:54):
everything that we did as a asa business.
Not just the website, which waschanged significantly, cause I
just was like, well, let me putmyself in the shoes of somebody
else coming here for the firsttime, like this doesn't make any
sense.
Like.
This is completely confusingand I don't even understand how
I let this go up on the websiteto begin with.
So that got completelyoverhauled, but also our service
(07:15):
offers or service offeringcompletely changed, as well as a
by-product of the work that wedid like from from reading that
book.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think brand has to be authentic and
it has to really come fromwithin and be just a way to
reveal the authentic brilliancethat's really within every
different organization.
And I think the big mistakethat some companies make is by
trying to engineer a brand thatthey think people are gonna like
.
Right, I think brand, I think abrand.
Again, when you come back toidentity, you know I'm the best
(07:50):
Jamie when I come off as Jamieand I don't try to be somebody
I'm not, and you know I can try.
I can try to fake it, I can tryto put on a false front, but in
the end it's exhausting.
It's so energy intensive to dothat.
I'll eventually revert back towho I am.
It's so energy intensive to dothat I'll eventually revert back
to who I am.
So what we do when we're doingbranding is really work with our
(08:12):
clients to help them figure outwho they are, what's brilliant
about what they're doing, andthen just reveal that to the
world.
It's pretty simple.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
What would you say?
What's your favorite projectever?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
The one that really sticks out to you.
Well, I mean, for me myfavorite project is the one that
I'm working on right now.
So it's always that way.
And you know, we just got areally interesting new client.
They are in the aquaculturebusiness, so they're growing
fish business, so they'regrowing fish.
So I just got back from Ensenada, mexico, yesterday, going on a
(08:52):
boat with 10 chefs out to theaquaculture farms, pulling out
the steelhead, bringing it intoa restaurant, 10 chefs who are
working on the fish, slicing it,making sashimi, making great
flavors, talking to chefs aboutfood and flavor.
I mean there's no betterpossible place to be.
I love food, I love flavor, andgetting to work with brands who
(09:13):
are trying to make a differencein the world doing sustainable
farming, trying to do somethingthat's great flavor and doing
something new, I mean that'sjust a total kick.
But I would say it's not alwaysthat and this is another thing
too for anybody who's thinkingabout being an entrepreneur in
this business is it's all aboutgetting into what the client's
(09:34):
doing, and sometimes it is asuninteresting as insurance
services right, and finding someway to understand the passion
and motivation that's drivingsomebody to do insurance
products right.
So I would say try to bringthat same spirit.
(09:54):
It's certainly easy when I'mworking on Steelhead, right, and
you know, going into the Vallede Guadalupe and having, you
know, dinners at Michelin starrestaurants but I try to bring
that same sort of energy andpassion when I'm working with
anybody.
Maybe they're building amultifamily residence project,
maybe they're doing constructionthere's so many different
(10:16):
places that we play in but Iwould say the same energy should
come to it and for everybodywho's in it love your work,
right, love your work.
I wake up Mondays and I'm notresenting Monday, right.
I wake up Monday.
I'm like cool, this is going tobe a great week.
And if anything, I would say Iwas starting to resent my
Fridays.
I'm like man, we didn't getenough done and like really, I
(10:38):
can have a weekend now.
So I think you know reallyloving what you do.
That's the key and that's whatwill make it sustainable.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So you know riffing off of that.
How do you get to that point?
You know you've obviously werefortunate to have that path and
you know you've obviously beensuccessful for a very long time.
And what is your passion?
There's definitely a lot ofpeople who are still trying to
figure that out.
So you know what was thatjourney like for you and for
those that are listening.
How can they sort of navigatethat and get to the ideal, which
is oh wow, it's Friday.
(11:13):
This sucks versus thank God,it's Friday.
I need to get the hell out ofhere.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, I think it's, first of all, it's having
balance across all disciplinesof life.
I don't think there's any oneanswer right.
And for me, look, I'm 62.
Okay, so this is what 62 lookslike, you know, in 2025.
And I have a lot of differentthings that I do.
There's no one answer right.
It's multimodal, a lot ofdifferent things.
(11:41):
So I would say, have multipleinputs.
Be not trying to find theanswer just in work, just in
career, right, you know, docreative things, get inspired,
go outside, you know, see art,listen to music, hang out with
friends, learn to cook, havepassions right, and so it all
(12:01):
works together.
And then, along that, justrealize where is your gift?
I mean, the classic book hereis what Colors your Parachute,
(12:26):
right, and I think, for anybodywho is and this is probably, I
don't know, it's in its 25thedition Branding.
We're not a full service agency.
We don't want to do that.
And I think about it in terms ofalmost like you know, if I was
a tennis player and I had awrist injury, I wouldn't go to a
(12:48):
general practitioner, I wouldgo to a specialist.
In fact, I might even jump on aplane and take a drive.
You know, take a ride 3,000miles to go see that specialist.
So how can you be thatspecialist, right?
How can you learn to be anexpert in what you're doing and
be that specialist?
And that's going to be thedifferentiator.
The benefit today, with theinternet and matching, is that
(13:10):
it's easier and easier for smartpeople to act as quarterbacks.
Pull together a team of playersthat are experts in different
areas, right, you know, thelinebacker doesn't have to be
the same as the receiver.
Different kinds of talents.
So find out where's your talent, what do you enjoy doing?
(13:32):
And and and stick with it.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, I think the sticking with a component is
really important to highlight.
In today's age of instantgratification and you know, if
you you went on social, you'dexpect to be able to snap your
fingers and become a billionaireentrepreneur it seems like yeah
, it's 10,000 hours, right.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So 10,000 hours, and that's also part of why it's so
important to enjoy the workright.
To enjoy the work and stickwith it and listen.
It can be tough.
Times change.
I think we're in a time ofgreat change right now.
Our agency is called Flux for areason.
Typically when people need whatwe do, something's changing,
(14:17):
and we're in a tremendous timeof change right now.
I believe that the change thatwe're seeing is all fueled by
technology, in specificcommunications technology, and
this is a time wherecommunications can be highly
effective and coming up with theright strategies for
(14:39):
communicating is difficult.
There's a lot of differentthings that can be done, but if
you can figure out that recipeand you can start testing with
it, the opportunity forresonating has never been
greater.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
How do you balance being a business owner while
also still getting to do whatyou love?
Because one of the things thatI found out pretty early on is
that it really is not thatglamorous.
There's a whole bunch of shitthat you have to deal with that
has nothing to do with what itis that you actually like to do.
But then I kind of actuallysort of fell in love more with
(15:15):
the process of business thannecessarily the business itself.
And so then that's when I waslike you know, clearly I'm not
going to be a marketing agencyguy forever and then ended up
selling that company.
So for me it's more about, youknow, I love business.
It doesn't necessarily matterso much what it is that the
business is.
It's the process of creatingand, you know, being around the
team and all of that.
(15:36):
But it definitely wasn't thatway and it still isn't that way
in certain instances.
So how do you manage that anddeal with that?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, I think having a team helps, right, Having a
team helps and not trying to doit all myself really is a big
difference.
So I don't operate as asolopreneur, I have a small team
.
I would say that I've been ableto make my team smaller since
the pandemic.
We used to be a studio-basedorganization.
(16:07):
I had a cool loft in downtownLA, a room full of Macs, some
dogs, coffee drinks, all thatkind of stuff.
It was amazing, it was great.
And in the pandemic we pivotedto being virtual and with
virtual now we have a muchsmaller, more lean organization
where we use a lot moreoutsiders, and so that's really
(16:33):
been liberating, I would say,because we do need to have
multiple people and contributorscoming in, but they're also,
when those people are employees,there's a lot of administrative
load and overhead required forthat.
So, you know, we've been able,I would say, to shift away from
(16:55):
that kind of administrative load, right of dealing with HR
related things, and instead nowwe've sort of put that same
energy towards projectmanagement, organization and how
do we work as a team still,when we're not in the same room?
Look, it was a lot easier whenI could walk out of my office,
(17:16):
go into the studio, sit downwith the designers, chat about
stuff, go into the conferenceroom.
Right now we're much morescheduled about things and if I
were to show you my schedule,you know it's pretty much every
30 minutes Boom boom, boom, boom.
So I spend most of my day now,you know, on virtual meetings.
It's kind of nice.
You don't have to spend twohours in the car driving around.
(17:39):
I can work kind of fromanywhere.
And I would say now for ourteam members, they really
appreciate that too.
Now, at the same time, I'm gladthat I did have that time of
working with other people, ofbeing in a social environment,
because I think there's a lot ofthings that occur and people
grow in different ways when theyhave to deal with other people,
(18:02):
deal with other personalities,learn to get along.
So it'll be interesting to seehow things develop and evolve in
this new paradigm.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, I think it's very like vertical and industry
specific.
You know, whether it's stayingremote, going hybrid, even going
back to full-time altogether.
The one thing I do see prettyconsistently, though, is if you
just graduated school this isjust my opinion, but I would
avoid remote like the plagueYou're 22, 23, maybe you're
(18:35):
still living at home.
We've tried to bring some ofthose team members into the
previous business, because thebusiness that acquired us was
fully remote.
We weren't, we were all basedin San Diego.
You don't get the socialcamaraderie, you don't get to do
the networking, you don't getto have that friendship outlet
too.
That's a huge component of yourearly career, is an identity.
(19:01):
For more experienced people orfor people with families, you
know it's a huge time savingsand a huge benefit to be able to
work remotely.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that we have to do things
consciously, to do team building, and even though that we're
remote and we've got people allover the world, we have a three
times a week touch base.
So we meet three times a weekwhat we call our hot sheet
meeting, and during hot sheet,that's when we talk about what's
going on.
You know, look at, look at whatneeds to get done in the next
(19:31):
couple of days, and we kind ofneed to do that round.
Robin, sure, you could log intothe system and you could see
your actions.
Right, they're all in there,they're all marked, but there's
still something about havingthat dialogue and communicating.
Definitely, for creative andfor what we do in branding,
there's a lot of just what wecall workshopping, where we get
(19:56):
together, we talk about thingsand it's done virtual right,
which works pretty well,surprisingly well.
Okay, I love being in the sameroom, but when we're virtual
like this, everybody has a frontrow seat.
Also, when we're virtual likethis, in many cases we can do
transcription, and we alwaystypically do transcription, and
(20:20):
that allows us then to use anumber of new tools.
Ai is an important tool for us.
We use it extensively, but notin the way that I think people
would imagine you use AI.
Ai is not something you press abutton.
It gives you an answer.
What AI does is it helps ussynthesize a lot of content and
(20:41):
bring it down, and boil it downand at least get us to a good,
solid draft.
The draft then is, you know,always manicured by hand, but
allowing that to come in isimportant.
I'll give you an example.
So we have a large insuranceservices client I mentioned to
you.
They're in Boca Raton and wewere brought aboard by the CEO
(21:06):
who was installed by Equity tofix this company.
And when he first got in thisis a CEO I've worked with
extensively One of his firstcalls was to me I need to get a
lay of the land.
We organized a two-day off-siteretreat session with 14 of
(21:28):
their top executives.
I use markers and whiteboards tomarker up things and sort of
figure it out.
But prior to that I didin-depth interviews with 14
executives, used thetranscriptions into AI to
synthesize and it was a commondiscussion guide that I used for
all 14 of the differentexecutives.
(21:49):
Then I was able to use AI tosort of pull together common
themes and common threads acrossthese different elements and
use that to generate a 60 pagereport that gave a state of
what's going on, where are thechallenges, and the AI was also
able to weight the responsesdifferently depending on the
(22:13):
role and title of thatindividual.
So the C-suite guys wereweighted more heavily than the
manager guys and that reallyprovided a very interesting
viewpoint that you know.
I could have done it by hand,but it saved me a lot of time to
do it and use the AI tosynthesize.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, the ability to like just intake all that data
is extremely valuable.
You know, it saves me atremendous amount of time when
it comes to things like that andthat's a really cool use case.
I love the weighting component.
My new business does a lot ofthat with recruiting and
candidate placement andmanagement, and there's a whole
(22:52):
system of various weights andthe weights change based off the
company, et cetera.
So that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So that's really cool divisions of the company to try
to keep the brand somehowconsistent.
(23:18):
I think that these are movingnow into digital platforms.
We use a platform called Auroraand Aurora provides different
workspaces for each of ourclients.
Each of those workspaces haveits own private knowledge base.
So as we're developing things,we're adding it to this
knowledge base and the knowledgebase then informs each of the
(23:40):
chats moving forward.
Plus, we can develop what arethese smart flows?
And to do detailed descriptionsof products, a short
description of the product, athree-word description, a
(24:05):
one-sentence description, ashort paragraph, the reasons why
you should have the product,what are the features of the
product, what are the benefitsof the product, and all of that
stuff can be generated based on,you know, the assembly of prior
materials going into theknowledge base, and this is
really like a huge time saverfor us and, I would say, also
(24:28):
provides the opportunity to handoff those systems to the client
in the future so that they havethe ability to keep the brand
consistent and generate morestuff.
That's on brand.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, I love that and you know you.
Your expertise and value can beamplified because you can spend
more time on the tinkering andthe refinement than necessarily
like just getting the basics outthere.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think learning to be a great prompter
is, you know, going to behighly valued.
I look at the AI as a writingassistant right, and I've had, I
always have writing assistants.
The thing about this one is itjust works really fast.
It works really fast and I canget a new draft going in you
(25:10):
know minute or seconds it's notalways on.
You know, I have to go through alot of different iterations and
drafts to get something, but itdoes a pretty good job.
And also, I don I have to gothrough a lot of different
iterations and drafts to getsomething, but it does a pretty
good job.
And also, I don't have to beoverly specific.
I have to be specific enough.
I guess it's not that I don'tthat I have to be specific, but
I don't have to be ordered andlogical.
(25:32):
I can throw a lot of stream ofconsciousness at the AI and it
can somehow seem to make senseof my random, juxtaposed,
unusual thought process andultimately that's what it can't
do, right, it can't do that kindof creative process.
Example I was doing a.
(25:53):
It was a 10 part email series,right, a training series, and
they just were starting to getreally boring.
It was formatting them all thesame.
It had three bullet points, ithad a numbered list, but just
everything was coming out veryuniform.
So I was able then to work withit and say, listen, for this
(26:13):
particular one, let's use aGreek myth, a Greek myth that
exemplifies what we're trying todo.
So it brought in something.
You know, I think it was Icarusor something, one of these
great myths to help tell thestory.
And these are the different, oranother one I said you know,
write a bedtime fairy tale.
So there's just differentthings that it wouldn't
(26:34):
necessarily think about.
And this is how I believe thatyou know, we as humans, the
human creative brain, will fusewith the analytic brain of the
AI to really do some interestingand exciting things.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it feels like we're just at the sort of
frontier of what is possiblewith it, so we're in for quite
the ride.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah Well, you know, I remember.
You know listening to the modemand having it connect, and you
know using Netscape Navigator.
These are the early days of theinternet, and looking at it and
going this is going to changeeverything, I would say the way
I feel about AI is even more.
It's even a greater sense ofwonder on what's going to happen
(27:20):
with AI.
I too share concerns about it,but ultimately I'm an optimist.
I tend to look at theoptimistic side of the world,
but I would say it's a tool.
It's any tool.
You know a chainsaw right.
Use a chainsaw to.
You know, trim the trees.
I can use it for the Texaschainsaw massacre.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I like that.
I'm going to steal that one.
Well, listen, I reallyappreciate you coming on and
sharing your insights.
I think there's a lot of reallygreat value here, especially
from a branding perspective andhow to leverage AI to help
assist in that creative processin a really unique way.
But before we hop, can you leteverybody know where they can
reach you or get connected withyour business online?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, totally.
So we've got some really coolthings, some free stuff, on our
website that I would encourageyou to go over to and check out.
So go to fluxbrandingcom You'llsee a little yellow button up
there.
Answer six questions and wegenerate a report on your brand
personality type and your brandpersonality type.
It's a version of brandarchetypes, but it's related to
(28:28):
brand story and who you are,what your character is.
If you put in your email, we'llsend you the report.
You get the answer right onthere immediately.
Also, if you're a bigger brandand you have a team, I encourage
you to send me an email and youcan send it to me.
It's Jamie J-A-M-I-E atfluxbrandingcom.
Put the name of this podcast inthe subject and I'll do a 30
(28:53):
minute session with you andgenerate a brand blueprint
report which will kind of helpgive you a roadmap.
And we do that complimentary.
I love learning about newbusinesses.
I love making a contribution.
One of our core values is wehave a spirit of generosity.
I do believe the more we give,the more we get, and I encourage
(29:14):
everybody to have that sameattitude.
Right, it's like where can youmake?
Where can you make acontribution?
I don't know.
Somehow it all comes back to me.
Once in a while I get takenadvantage of, but that's in the
minority.
I get much more out of it thanI lose.
So if you're interested in thebrand Blueprint, please send me
an email and I'd love to meetyou.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Awesome, I really appreciate it.
I might have to take you up onthat myself.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You're great Thanks for doing this and I think it's
great that you're doing thepodcast.
And I would say, you know, foryou know, for young people out
there, it's so easy to getpolarized.
You know, we're really enteringan era of just tremendous
polarization and just there's alot of gray out there.
Right, there's a lot of graybetween the blacks and the
whites and uh, you know, justbecause things can look so
(30:04):
horrible out there, there's alsoincredible great good going on
right now.
So we're in a, you know, justthere's a lot, there's a lot of
shades of color happening rightnow.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I agree.
Well, again, thank you forcoming on, for For everybody
listening, as always, this isBrandon Amoroso.
You can find me atBrandonAmorosocom or Scalistai.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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