November 16, 2025 • 22 mins
When we talk about cults, we tend to picture the classic images: a doomsday group in the desert, or a fringe religious sect that feels totally disconnected from everyday life.
But here in Australia, cults are a current and pressing issue in our communities. So much so that the Victorian Parliament has now launched an inquiry into cults and other coercive groups.
In today’s podcast, you’re going to hear from Clare Heath-McIvor. She established an advocacy organisation called the Survivors of Coercive Cults and High-Control Groups after she left behind the life she was born into -a high-control group in eastern Victoria.
Hosts: Elliot Lawry and Emma Gillespie
Guest: Clare Heath-McIvor, Co-Founder of Survivors of Coercive Cults and High-Control Groups
Producer: Orla Maher
Want to support The Daily Aus? That's so kind! The best way to do that is to click ‘follow’ on Spotify or Apple and to leave us a five-star review. We would be so grateful.
The Daily Aus is a media company focused on delivering accessible and digestible news to young people. We are completely independent.
Want more from TDA?
Subscribe to The Daily Aus newsletter
Subscribe to The Daily Aus’ YouTube Channel
Have feedback for us?
We’re always looking for new ways to improve what we do. If you’ve got feedback, we’re all ears. Tell us here.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already and this is the daily This is the Daily os.
Oh now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ohs. It's Monday,
the seventeenth of November. I'm Elliot Lourie.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm Emma Gillespie.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When we talk about colts, we tend to picture the
classic images a doomsday group in the desert or a
fringe religious sect that feels totally disconnected from everyday life.
But here in Australia, cults are a current and pressing
issue in our communities, so much so that the Victorian
Parliament has now launched an inquiry into colts and other
coercive groups. In today's podcast, you're going to hear from
(00:41):
Claire Heath MacIvor. She established an advocacy organization called the
Survivors of Coercive Cults and High Control Groups after she
left behind the life she was born into a high
control group in Eastern Victoria.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Elliott, this is such a fascinating topic to be talking
about today, and I think you really nailed it with
your intro when you said that cults can feel like
this kind of really far away concept or the stuff
of true crime podcasts and docos, But it is a
very real issue currently being discussed in Victoria, and Claire
(01:18):
is one of many former cult members who are now
working with the Victorian government as it tries to understand
more about these groups. Before we jump into her story,
can you tell us a little bit more about this
parliamentary inquiry?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, for sure. So earlier this year, the Victorian government
announced that they'd be holding their own inquiry into cults
and high control groups. It's important to note that those
terms are kind of used interchangeably because cults have a
very intense stigma attached to them, so they try to
word it a little bit differently sometimes, but we will
hear throughout the podcast those two terms kind of used
in the same way. But basically, an inquiry gives the
(01:55):
public an opportunity to have input into issues that are
before parliament. This particular inquiry has already heard from several
survivors as well as advocacy groups, trauma experts, and religious groups.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Okay, and why is it happening right now? Why has
the government in Victoria decided that now's the time.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Look, there's a lot of problems that they're trying to
solve here. One of the main ones is that we
don't have a legal definition here in Australia for what
a cult is.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
On top of that, they're also trying to fill in
the gaps that are in existing legislation to help better
crack down on cult activity in the state. But the
reason that they're holding the inquiry right now is off
the back of a massive surgeon reports of high control
groups operating across the state. One of the more high
profile cases that helped trigger the inquiry came from the
Geelong Revival Center, which is a Pentecostal doomsday church based
(02:45):
just outside of Melbourne. We've also seen a lot of
cases of young people being targeted by cults. The inquiry
has actually heard that universities and shopping centers have become
hunting grounds for these sorts of recruiters for these cults,
and this month we've actually seen leaders from the state's
universities appear before the inquiry to try and help the
government put together a response.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, the way that this has impacted young people, the
university recruitment stuff that has emerged is super fascinating. That
gives us a bit of a picture of the inquiry itself.
But today we're going to hear from Claire, Can you
tell us a little bit more about her?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, So Claire was born and raised in the City
Builders Church, which is also in Victoria. Her father is
actually a pastor in the church, and Claire has been
ostracized from her entire family and also her former community
for almost a decade now. She told me about how
hard it's been to adapt to a new life on
the outside, as well as some stories from her experience that,
(03:43):
while shocking, are actually pretty commonplace amongst cult survivors. You'll
hear more from her in just a second, but I
do want to preface this interview with just a quick
content warning because we do discuss various forms of abuse
throughout the chat. If you're not feeling up to it,
then maybe come back for tomorrow's deep dive, but without
further ado. Claire, thank you for joining the Dai they Os.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
So I want to start off really broad today. We're
talking about cults for anyone that's maybe not exactly sure
what is a cult.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
A cult can be any group, essentially, any group that
has these combination of characteristics. Usually a cult has a
central charismatic leader, usually a bit narcissistic who commands a
lot of obedience and a lot of adoration and adulation.
A cult usually has a transcendent belief system, so the
(04:35):
one kind of higher truth or the one path to enlightenment.
They also have systems of influence by which people are
indoctrinated and brought into the group. Often these are quite
deceptive from the outset and get more serious as you
come into the group, and they have systems of control
once you're in. A lot of people think that cults
(04:57):
are just religious or pseudo rel We think of sort
of white doomsday cults, but it's just not the case.
Cults can be any type of group. There's yoga cults,
there's Buddhist cults, hard labor cults, there's you know, multi
level marketing cults. Even it can be all sorts of groups.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And you, yourself, are a survivor of a cult. Can
you tell us a little bit about your experience?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, sure, my group. You know, it's still uncomfortable to
call it a cult, even though i've you know, it
definitely fits the definition, but it was it's a Christian
church that exists further out on the fundamentalist edge. We're
a dominionist group, so We believed that God had sent
(05:46):
us to take dominion of the seven domains of society.
It's a common evangelical doctrine, but the control and an
influenced methodology within that group is what makes it quite
quite a standout in that area. We were very, very
interested in politics and had concentrated efforts to infiltrate particularly
(06:10):
the National Party and the Liberal Party in Victoria. Were
also quite well known for our attitudes towards LGBT people.
My ex husband is a gay conversion therapy survivor, and
even though gay conversion therapy is outlawed, you know, in
(06:33):
a lot of places, it's broader than just therapy. It's
actually gay conversion practices, sexual orientation or gender identity change efforts.
There can be anything from prayer and exorcism to homophobia
from behind the pulpit to all sorts of things. And
we were in an arranged marriage, you know, some of
these ideas are quite deeply held within these groups. So yeah,
(06:56):
so that was our group, still very involved in politics,
and my parents actually run that group and I am
sadly estranged from them and my four siblings.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
At what point in your experience did you start to
sort of have questions or thoughts about the fact that
you may be in a cult. What was the moment
that sort of made you realize.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
So there had been moments over the years, probably from
when I was around sixteen, that I was visited by
that discomfort, especially when it came to abuse that I
suffered or that other people suffered, and the way that
that was handled that made me feel really really uncomfortable.
I was aware that people in the community felt it
(07:45):
was a cult, which was also deeply uncomfortable. But it
wasn't until the eleventh of November twenty fifteen, when I
found out I was pregnant with our first child, but
it's actually our fifth pregnancy that my husband had a
fight with my dad and thus began the process of
(08:05):
our shunning. And it's a deeply painful memory. But also
I just don't think that I would have been able
to carry that pregnancy to term if I had been
in that high stress environment. Shunning isn't fun, but at
least I knew I wasn't bringing a child into that world.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And we're talking today because the Victorian Parliament has launched
a inquiry into colts. Yes, why do you think they've
launched it. Now that is.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
A loaded question. I mean, I can only assume to
me like I've had my hearing in front of the inquiry,
and I've found the committee to be really deeply invested
in this, and that seems to not be a partisan thing.
It seems to be right across the board, Labor, Liberal Nationals,
for which I'm deeply thankful. A couple of years ago,
(08:58):
one of the goats of Australian analysm Richard Baker, started
working with survivors of the Geelong Revival Center and he
started working with them on a podcast series called Secrets
We Keep Pray Harder. But it actually got benched for
a few years because some members of the Geelong Revival
Center leadership were actually up on charges related to child essay,
(09:23):
so that had to wait. And then when it was launched,
Ryan and Catherine Cary, who led the charge on that podcast,
they were working with Chris Cousins, who is an MP
out in that area, and Chris really just deeply cared
about this so helped them get an inquiry up. And
the data that's come out is so compelling in terms
(09:46):
of like ninety five point nine percent of respondents on
the survey said that they'd suffered psychological harm, something like
eighty five percent said limitations on personal freedom and fifty
two point four four percent said physical or essay abuse.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You mentioned a survey conducted by the Parliamentary Inquiry which
revealed some trends about cult survivors and their experiences there.
One of the more interesting ones that I was looking
at was how people are recruited into cults. Can you
maybe talk us through what are some of the more
common practices?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh, okay, this is really interesting because it seems to
be the same right across the board. I think a
lot of people think, oh, you know, there's there's kids
that are born into cults and it's it's you know,
child abuse is rife, and we need to absolutely take
that seriously. But there's this thought that, you know, whatever
consenting adults do when a cult is up to them.
(10:45):
The thing is nobody consents to join a cult. You
don't rock up and somebody hands you a flyer and says, hey,
welcome to this cult. We're going to control every aspect
of your life. It's just not how it happens. What
will happen instead is you'll be invited to you know,
a social gathering, you might be befriended by one or two extras.
They might start to love bomb you, which is intoxicating.
(11:08):
But you'll be invited to then do courses and it
might seem really innocuous. It might be a course about
you know, authentic manhood or masculinity, and the MANI sphere
is a huge concern with regard to that. It might
be a course about you know, women's empowerment or politics
or philosophy. It might be about recovery from abuse. And
(11:28):
then you start sharing your more intimate secrets with this mentor,
and then all of a sudden there's emotional buy in
and then the energy that you'll be putting into the
group through volunteer work or more courses or stuff like that.
It starts to increase as your connection to your friends
and families decrease. And then you'll have a moment where
(11:51):
it might be like, Oh, your friends and your family
don't really understand where your real family where your real friends.
This is the one truth. Hey, why don't you invest
in this opportunity or invest in this course, or invest
in whatever. So nobody consents to join a cult. They
consent to go to a barbecue or go to a
fun group, or go to a personal development course, and
(12:14):
it's like boiling that frog degree by degree, and it's
not until the water's boiling and it's too late to
escape easily that people usually realize they're in a cult.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
We'll be right back with more of today's deep dive
right after this.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
And there's a bit of a running joke, for lack
of a better term, about this one area in Melbourne
CBD Melbourne Central or Emporium where people say, you know,
if someone comes up to you and as being nice
to you right away, because they're likely recruiting you into
a cult. Yes, why do you think that's taking place there?
(12:51):
And is there a certain target that these cults are
going after?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, I do know that the Shinchyanji cult, which is
particularly insidious, is recruiting on university campuses a lot. You
often see street preachers down at the Burke Street mall
and intersections like that. Essentially, cults are looking for people
who are in the crosshairs of big transitions in life,
(13:19):
whether that is adolescence where the apron strings are loosening,
you're more interested in your friend group, You're trying to
find your place in the world. You might want to
find your tribe, find your meaning, your purpose. There's also
during that late high school and early university you're idealistic
and you might be going through your first big breakup
(13:41):
or something like that. There's other risk factors that they
look for. It might be the diagnosis of an illness
or the death of a family member, divorce of parents,
your own divorce, moving house. These periods of transition, these
periods of loneliness ideal times for cults to come in
and be your meaning in life, to come in and
(14:03):
be your tribe, or come in and replace the family
or close relationships that you've lost. So yeah, I mean
that would be my theory, my hypothesis of why they'd
be targeting a certain age group and in the city and.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
For those people that do full victim to these recruiting practices.
Can you to walk us through what it's like once
you're in cider cult.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
All for I don't like using the term mind control
of brainwashing, but there's you know that's there, that pressure
to conform to the group, that pressure to learn their language,
their ways of thinking, and to represent that in the community.
By the time I was about fifteen, I was getting
up early in the morning to do my homeschooling. I
(14:51):
was then helping school my younger brothers and sisters. I
was then doing house chores, babysitting. I was then going
to McDonald's my mission field, to work my shifts. And
then I was usually at church doing various different things,
sort of five six afternoons or evenings per week, and
that six or fifth or sixth evening would be spent
(15:13):
reaching out to people. Later on, I was running businesses
and use discipleship programs, and I was fairly typical of
the level of volunteerism that was required there. And you know,
if you asked me, I would have said I was happy.
But I've been on antidepressants since I was nineteen, and
I have PTSD like many people who have escaped cults,
(15:35):
but we hide those in cults, and consequently, when we exit,
a lot of us end up with autoimmune disorders because
our body is just so pathologically tired. A lot of
us end up with these significant, you know, chronic illnesses.
But that's a consequence of just having to go, go, go, go,
and constantly represent and constantly be happy and joyful and
(15:59):
peaceful while squashing all the rest down. Disempowerment of women
is huge, and so too is conformity to gender or
sexuality norms. So unfortunately, change in suppression practices, which is
the proper name for sort of your gay conversion stuff,
still occurs in a lot of.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Groups you mentioned. There are some really concerning details around
psychological manipulation, forced labor, sexual assault. For people who are listening,
they might be thinking, if you're experiencing all those terrible things,
why wouldn't you just leave? Why wouldn't you get out?
What would you say to that?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It's the same as asking a person in an intimate
partner violence situation, why don't you just leave? For some people,
it's not just somewhere they go once a week for
a course. It is their social circle. It may be
their marriage and maybe their children. It maybe their family members.
It may have replaced their family members. They may have
(17:02):
their employment, housing, or support system in that group. That
group may possess a whole of their personal information. It's
common for persecution complex or in us versus them complex,
to be really built into that group as one of
the control or influenced strategies. We're often terrified of the
(17:22):
outside world and often hard to know where to start.
I've had people tell me of having absolute meltdowns over
how to open a bank account, how to get their
birth certificate or passport, what to pack in an escape,
who to call to escape? Can you trust that person?
So there's a lot of levels here, and you can't
(17:45):
just sort of call a hotline or google something and
go great, now I'm exiting like it's a really it's
a tricky process. For me, it was maybe I can
fix this. Maybe I can just show them what's wrong,
to show them the problems here, and maybe we can
fix this. You still love them, and I still love them,
(18:05):
And there's this double bind every time I speak out,
because I'm speaking about my mum and my dad and
my sisters and my brother, and I know that every
time I speak, they're cringing and they're going like they'd
be at home going why won't you stop attacking as,
why won't you shut up? And I'm here going I'm
not attacking you. I'm trying to stop people from suffering
(18:29):
the same damage that people in cults everywhere suffer. And
it's really really tough. So we should never ever look
at a as somebody who's in a cult or trying
and failing to escape, or trying to escape and succeeding
and struggling to integrate into the world. We should never
look at them and go, why didn't you do this earlier?
I was terrified. I was so terrified and couldn't imagine
(18:53):
the world a different way. It was my family, it
was everyone I'd ever trusted, And years on, I still
tango with that grief and that fear to be quite honest,
and that those ties to home. But I've got a
really beautiful life now that is authentically mine, and you know,
(19:13):
I'm able to recover. I'm able to live authentically as me,
even though my personality, my desire to think and lead
and contribute in my own way, to be my kind
of flamboyant self, was really squashed within my upbringing. So
even for me, reclaiming self and getting to know myself
(19:35):
has been a journey. But also rule Number one of
Colt Club is you're not a cult. Nobody ever thinks
there are cults, like, don't call it a coult Like.
It takes a lot for that moment to click that yeah,
you're actually you know, problematic and it's not a comfortable
(19:55):
recognition when you do.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I wanted to end by thinking about the f a
little bit. You've got this inquiry on it at the moment,
humidly there's going to be some recommendations made at the
end of it. What kind of changes can the government make?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
This is a really interesting one because many cult inquiries
or inquiries into groups like this have happened in different
jurisdictions and they've all been hamstrung on. But freedom of
religion and belief, freedom of association, and these are valid things.
So we really need to change the framing here and
we need to start talking about coercive control in group settings.
We're also suggesting to government, recommending to government that they
(20:33):
have a independent commissioner for cults and high control groups.
Reason being just in Victoria alone, there's thirty different areas
of law, thirty different acts, and there's something like twenty
one different government departments that may hold a single area
of cultic abuse in their remit. So we're talking about
(20:54):
how on earth do you coordinate this. You know, when
Peter doesn't know what Paul's doing, you need an independent
commissioner to do that. You need it to be independent
because if it's tied to a minister and you end
up with a far right minister at the head of
that it could be axed because it's a challenging concept
(21:15):
for those far right or even indeed really really far
left groups. So we need it to be independent so
it can coordinate things like research, education, public health style campaigns,
support for survivors, exit strategies, and of course civil and
criminal recourse for victims. So that's what we want.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Heculus, Claire, thank you so much for joining us at
the Daily ODS.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
My absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Thank you so much Elliott for unpacking that one today,
a really interesting and important conversation, and of course a
huge thanks to Claire for sharing her story and joining
us at the Daily OS. The inquiry is continuing in Victoria.
Full report and recommendations are you by September next year.
We will keep you posted in the meantime. That's all
we've got time for today, But if this episode has
(22:07):
raised any issues for you, twenty four to seven crisis
support is available through Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. For
family and sexual violence support, you can contact one eight
hundred respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven
three two.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda
Banjelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl country.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to
all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
both past and present.
Already and this is the daily This is the Daily os.
Oh now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ohs. It's Monday,
the seventeenth of November. I'm Elliot Lourie.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm Emma Gillespie.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When we talk about colts, we tend to picture the
classic images a doomsday group in the desert or a
fringe religious sect that feels totally disconnected from everyday life.
But here in Australia, cults are a current and pressing
issue in our communities, so much so that the Victorian
Parliament has now launched an inquiry into colts and other
coercive groups. In today's podcast, you're going to hear from
(00:41):
Claire Heath MacIvor. She established an advocacy organization called the
Survivors of Coercive Cults and High Control Groups after she
left behind the life she was born into a high
control group in Eastern Victoria.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Elliott, this is such a fascinating topic to be talking
about today, and I think you really nailed it with
your intro when you said that cults can feel like
this kind of really far away concept or the stuff
of true crime podcasts and docos, But it is a
very real issue currently being discussed in Victoria, and Claire
(01:18):
is one of many former cult members who are now
working with the Victorian government as it tries to understand
more about these groups. Before we jump into her story,
can you tell us a little bit more about this
parliamentary inquiry?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, for sure. So earlier this year, the Victorian government
announced that they'd be holding their own inquiry into cults
and high control groups. It's important to note that those
terms are kind of used interchangeably because cults have a
very intense stigma attached to them, so they try to
word it a little bit differently sometimes, but we will
hear throughout the podcast those two terms kind of used
in the same way. But basically, an inquiry gives the
(01:55):
public an opportunity to have input into issues that are
before parliament. This particular inquiry has already heard from several
survivors as well as advocacy groups, trauma experts, and religious groups.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Okay, and why is it happening right now? Why has
the government in Victoria decided that now's the time.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Look, there's a lot of problems that they're trying to
solve here. One of the main ones is that we
don't have a legal definition here in Australia for what
a cult is.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
On top of that, they're also trying to fill in
the gaps that are in existing legislation to help better
crack down on cult activity in the state. But the
reason that they're holding the inquiry right now is off
the back of a massive surgeon reports of high control
groups operating across the state. One of the more high
profile cases that helped trigger the inquiry came from the
Geelong Revival Center, which is a Pentecostal doomsday church based
(02:45):
just outside of Melbourne. We've also seen a lot of
cases of young people being targeted by cults. The inquiry
has actually heard that universities and shopping centers have become
hunting grounds for these sorts of recruiters for these cults,
and this month we've actually seen leaders from the state's
universities appear before the inquiry to try and help the
government put together a response.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, the way that this has impacted young people, the
university recruitment stuff that has emerged is super fascinating. That
gives us a bit of a picture of the inquiry itself.
But today we're going to hear from Claire, Can you
tell us a little bit more about her?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, So Claire was born and raised in the City
Builders Church, which is also in Victoria. Her father is
actually a pastor in the church, and Claire has been
ostracized from her entire family and also her former community
for almost a decade now. She told me about how
hard it's been to adapt to a new life on
the outside, as well as some stories from her experience that,
(03:43):
while shocking, are actually pretty commonplace amongst cult survivors. You'll
hear more from her in just a second, but I
do want to preface this interview with just a quick
content warning because we do discuss various forms of abuse
throughout the chat. If you're not feeling up to it,
then maybe come back for tomorrow's deep dive, but without
further ado. Claire, thank you for joining the Dai they Os.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
So I want to start off really broad today. We're
talking about cults for anyone that's maybe not exactly sure
what is a cult.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
A cult can be any group, essentially, any group that
has these combination of characteristics. Usually a cult has a
central charismatic leader, usually a bit narcissistic who commands a
lot of obedience and a lot of adoration and adulation.
A cult usually has a transcendent belief system, so the
(04:35):
one kind of higher truth or the one path to enlightenment.
They also have systems of influence by which people are
indoctrinated and brought into the group. Often these are quite
deceptive from the outset and get more serious as you
come into the group, and they have systems of control
once you're in. A lot of people think that cults
(04:57):
are just religious or pseudo rel We think of sort
of white doomsday cults, but it's just not the case.
Cults can be any type of group. There's yoga cults,
there's Buddhist cults, hard labor cults, there's you know, multi
level marketing cults. Even it can be all sorts of groups.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And you, yourself, are a survivor of a cult. Can
you tell us a little bit about your experience?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, sure, my group. You know, it's still uncomfortable to
call it a cult, even though i've you know, it
definitely fits the definition, but it was it's a Christian
church that exists further out on the fundamentalist edge. We're
a dominionist group, so We believed that God had sent
(05:46):
us to take dominion of the seven domains of society.
It's a common evangelical doctrine, but the control and an
influenced methodology within that group is what makes it quite
quite a standout in that area. We were very, very
interested in politics and had concentrated efforts to infiltrate particularly
(06:10):
the National Party and the Liberal Party in Victoria. Were
also quite well known for our attitudes towards LGBT people.
My ex husband is a gay conversion therapy survivor, and
even though gay conversion therapy is outlawed, you know, in
(06:33):
a lot of places, it's broader than just therapy. It's
actually gay conversion practices, sexual orientation or gender identity change efforts.
There can be anything from prayer and exorcism to homophobia
from behind the pulpit to all sorts of things. And
we were in an arranged marriage, you know, some of
these ideas are quite deeply held within these groups. So yeah,
(06:56):
so that was our group, still very involved in politics,
and my parents actually run that group and I am
sadly estranged from them and my four siblings.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
At what point in your experience did you start to
sort of have questions or thoughts about the fact that
you may be in a cult. What was the moment
that sort of made you realize.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
So there had been moments over the years, probably from
when I was around sixteen, that I was visited by
that discomfort, especially when it came to abuse that I
suffered or that other people suffered, and the way that
that was handled that made me feel really really uncomfortable.
I was aware that people in the community felt it
(07:45):
was a cult, which was also deeply uncomfortable. But it
wasn't until the eleventh of November twenty fifteen, when I
found out I was pregnant with our first child, but
it's actually our fifth pregnancy that my husband had a
fight with my dad and thus began the process of
(08:05):
our shunning. And it's a deeply painful memory. But also
I just don't think that I would have been able
to carry that pregnancy to term if I had been
in that high stress environment. Shunning isn't fun, but at
least I knew I wasn't bringing a child into that world.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And we're talking today because the Victorian Parliament has launched
a inquiry into colts. Yes, why do you think they've
launched it. Now that is.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
A loaded question. I mean, I can only assume to
me like I've had my hearing in front of the inquiry,
and I've found the committee to be really deeply invested
in this, and that seems to not be a partisan thing.
It seems to be right across the board, Labor, Liberal Nationals,
for which I'm deeply thankful. A couple of years ago,
(08:58):
one of the goats of Australian analysm Richard Baker, started
working with survivors of the Geelong Revival Center and he
started working with them on a podcast series called Secrets
We Keep Pray Harder. But it actually got benched for
a few years because some members of the Geelong Revival
Center leadership were actually up on charges related to child essay,
(09:23):
so that had to wait. And then when it was launched,
Ryan and Catherine Cary, who led the charge on that podcast,
they were working with Chris Cousins, who is an MP
out in that area, and Chris really just deeply cared
about this so helped them get an inquiry up. And
the data that's come out is so compelling in terms
(09:46):
of like ninety five point nine percent of respondents on
the survey said that they'd suffered psychological harm, something like
eighty five percent said limitations on personal freedom and fifty
two point four four percent said physical or essay abuse.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You mentioned a survey conducted by the Parliamentary Inquiry which
revealed some trends about cult survivors and their experiences there.
One of the more interesting ones that I was looking
at was how people are recruited into cults. Can you
maybe talk us through what are some of the more
common practices?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh, okay, this is really interesting because it seems to
be the same right across the board. I think a
lot of people think, oh, you know, there's there's kids
that are born into cults and it's it's you know,
child abuse is rife, and we need to absolutely take
that seriously. But there's this thought that, you know, whatever
consenting adults do when a cult is up to them.
(10:45):
The thing is nobody consents to join a cult. You
don't rock up and somebody hands you a flyer and says, hey,
welcome to this cult. We're going to control every aspect
of your life. It's just not how it happens. What
will happen instead is you'll be invited to you know,
a social gathering, you might be befriended by one or two extras.
They might start to love bomb you, which is intoxicating.
(11:08):
But you'll be invited to then do courses and it
might seem really innocuous. It might be a course about
you know, authentic manhood or masculinity, and the MANI sphere
is a huge concern with regard to that. It might
be a course about you know, women's empowerment or politics
or philosophy. It might be about recovery from abuse. And
(11:28):
then you start sharing your more intimate secrets with this mentor,
and then all of a sudden there's emotional buy in
and then the energy that you'll be putting into the
group through volunteer work or more courses or stuff like that.
It starts to increase as your connection to your friends
and families decrease. And then you'll have a moment where
(11:51):
it might be like, Oh, your friends and your family
don't really understand where your real family where your real friends.
This is the one truth. Hey, why don't you invest
in this opportunity or invest in this course, or invest
in whatever. So nobody consents to join a cult. They
consent to go to a barbecue or go to a
fun group, or go to a personal development course, and
(12:14):
it's like boiling that frog degree by degree, and it's
not until the water's boiling and it's too late to
escape easily that people usually realize they're in a cult.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
We'll be right back with more of today's deep dive
right after this.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
And there's a bit of a running joke, for lack
of a better term, about this one area in Melbourne
CBD Melbourne Central or Emporium where people say, you know,
if someone comes up to you and as being nice
to you right away, because they're likely recruiting you into
a cult. Yes, why do you think that's taking place there?
(12:51):
And is there a certain target that these cults are
going after?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, I do know that the Shinchyanji cult, which is
particularly insidious, is recruiting on university campuses a lot. You
often see street preachers down at the Burke Street mall
and intersections like that. Essentially, cults are looking for people
who are in the crosshairs of big transitions in life,
(13:19):
whether that is adolescence where the apron strings are loosening,
you're more interested in your friend group, You're trying to
find your place in the world. You might want to
find your tribe, find your meaning, your purpose. There's also
during that late high school and early university you're idealistic
and you might be going through your first big breakup
(13:41):
or something like that. There's other risk factors that they
look for. It might be the diagnosis of an illness
or the death of a family member, divorce of parents,
your own divorce, moving house. These periods of transition, these
periods of loneliness ideal times for cults to come in
and be your meaning in life, to come in and
(14:03):
be your tribe, or come in and replace the family
or close relationships that you've lost. So yeah, I mean
that would be my theory, my hypothesis of why they'd
be targeting a certain age group and in the city and.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
For those people that do full victim to these recruiting practices.
Can you to walk us through what it's like once
you're in cider cult.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
All for I don't like using the term mind control
of brainwashing, but there's you know that's there, that pressure
to conform to the group, that pressure to learn their language,
their ways of thinking, and to represent that in the community.
By the time I was about fifteen, I was getting
up early in the morning to do my homeschooling. I
(14:51):
was then helping school my younger brothers and sisters. I
was then doing house chores, babysitting. I was then going
to McDonald's my mission field, to work my shifts. And
then I was usually at church doing various different things,
sort of five six afternoons or evenings per week, and
that six or fifth or sixth evening would be spent
(15:13):
reaching out to people. Later on, I was running businesses
and use discipleship programs, and I was fairly typical of
the level of volunteerism that was required there. And you know,
if you asked me, I would have said I was happy.
But I've been on antidepressants since I was nineteen, and
I have PTSD like many people who have escaped cults,
(15:35):
but we hide those in cults, and consequently, when we exit,
a lot of us end up with autoimmune disorders because
our body is just so pathologically tired. A lot of
us end up with these significant, you know, chronic illnesses.
But that's a consequence of just having to go, go, go, go,
and constantly represent and constantly be happy and joyful and
(15:59):
peaceful while squashing all the rest down. Disempowerment of women
is huge, and so too is conformity to gender or
sexuality norms. So unfortunately, change in suppression practices, which is
the proper name for sort of your gay conversion stuff,
still occurs in a lot of.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Groups you mentioned. There are some really concerning details around
psychological manipulation, forced labor, sexual assault. For people who are listening,
they might be thinking, if you're experiencing all those terrible things,
why wouldn't you just leave? Why wouldn't you get out?
What would you say to that?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It's the same as asking a person in an intimate
partner violence situation, why don't you just leave? For some people,
it's not just somewhere they go once a week for
a course. It is their social circle. It may be
their marriage and maybe their children. It maybe their family members.
It may have replaced their family members. They may have
(17:02):
their employment, housing, or support system in that group. That
group may possess a whole of their personal information. It's
common for persecution complex or in us versus them complex,
to be really built into that group as one of
the control or influenced strategies. We're often terrified of the
(17:22):
outside world and often hard to know where to start.
I've had people tell me of having absolute meltdowns over
how to open a bank account, how to get their
birth certificate or passport, what to pack in an escape,
who to call to escape? Can you trust that person?
So there's a lot of levels here, and you can't
(17:45):
just sort of call a hotline or google something and
go great, now I'm exiting like it's a really it's
a tricky process. For me, it was maybe I can
fix this. Maybe I can just show them what's wrong,
to show them the problems here, and maybe we can
fix this. You still love them, and I still love them,
(18:05):
And there's this double bind every time I speak out,
because I'm speaking about my mum and my dad and
my sisters and my brother, and I know that every
time I speak, they're cringing and they're going like they'd
be at home going why won't you stop attacking as,
why won't you shut up? And I'm here going I'm
not attacking you. I'm trying to stop people from suffering
(18:29):
the same damage that people in cults everywhere suffer. And
it's really really tough. So we should never ever look
at a as somebody who's in a cult or trying
and failing to escape, or trying to escape and succeeding
and struggling to integrate into the world. We should never
look at them and go, why didn't you do this earlier?
I was terrified. I was so terrified and couldn't imagine
(18:53):
the world a different way. It was my family, it
was everyone I'd ever trusted, And years on, I still
tango with that grief and that fear to be quite honest,
and that those ties to home. But I've got a
really beautiful life now that is authentically mine, and you know,
(19:13):
I'm able to recover. I'm able to live authentically as me,
even though my personality, my desire to think and lead
and contribute in my own way, to be my kind
of flamboyant self, was really squashed within my upbringing. So
even for me, reclaiming self and getting to know myself
(19:35):
has been a journey. But also rule Number one of
Colt Club is you're not a cult. Nobody ever thinks
there are cults, like, don't call it a coult Like.
It takes a lot for that moment to click that yeah,
you're actually you know, problematic and it's not a comfortable
(19:55):
recognition when you do.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I wanted to end by thinking about the f a
little bit. You've got this inquiry on it at the moment,
humidly there's going to be some recommendations made at the
end of it. What kind of changes can the government make?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
This is a really interesting one because many cult inquiries
or inquiries into groups like this have happened in different
jurisdictions and they've all been hamstrung on. But freedom of
religion and belief, freedom of association, and these are valid things.
So we really need to change the framing here and
we need to start talking about coercive control in group settings.
We're also suggesting to government, recommending to government that they
(20:33):
have a independent commissioner for cults and high control groups.
Reason being just in Victoria alone, there's thirty different areas
of law, thirty different acts, and there's something like twenty
one different government departments that may hold a single area
of cultic abuse in their remit. So we're talking about
(20:54):
how on earth do you coordinate this. You know, when
Peter doesn't know what Paul's doing, you need an independent
commissioner to do that. You need it to be independent
because if it's tied to a minister and you end
up with a far right minister at the head of
that it could be axed because it's a challenging concept
(21:15):
for those far right or even indeed really really far
left groups. So we need it to be independent so
it can coordinate things like research, education, public health style campaigns,
support for survivors, exit strategies, and of course civil and
criminal recourse for victims. So that's what we want.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Heculus, Claire, thank you so much for joining us at
the Daily ODS.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
My absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Thank you so much Elliott for unpacking that one today,
a really interesting and important conversation, and of course a
huge thanks to Claire for sharing her story and joining
us at the Daily OS. The inquiry is continuing in Victoria.
Full report and recommendations are you by September next year.
We will keep you posted in the meantime. That's all
we've got time for today, But if this episode has
(22:07):
raised any issues for you, twenty four to seven crisis
support is available through Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. For
family and sexual violence support, you can contact one eight
hundred respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven
three two.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda
Banjelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl country.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to
all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
both past and present.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.