August 28, 2025 • 13 mins
Yesterday, we brought you the first part of our exclusive chat with Mitch Brown. In speaking to TDA, Brown became the first player in the AFL's 129 year history to publicly identify as bisexual. On today's chat, we ask Mitch what he expects of the AFL in response to his story, as well as his advice for the next generation of young boys.
Host: Sam Koslowski
Producer: Orla Maher and Emma Gillespie
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already, and this is the daily. This is the daily.
This is the daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday,
the twenty ninth of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski. Yesterday we
brought you the first half of our historic chat with
(00:23):
former AFL player Mitch Brown.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I played in AFL for ten years, and I'm a
bisexual man.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
In Sitting Down with TDA, Mitch became the first male player,
past or present in one hundred and twenty nine years
to be openly gay or bisexual.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
The AFL community is uniting behind former West Coast Mitch Brown.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
The first openly bisexual man in the AFL's one hundred
and thirty year history.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Power do you, Mitch Brown? Power you? This is going
to help so many more people than you'll ever know now.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
In the final moments of Part one, I asked Mitch
about his decision to retire from the AFL at just
twenty eight and whether it was connected to the homophobia
he witnessed in the locker room and on the field
and the constant grappling with his identity. In Part two
of our game changing chat with Mitch Brown, we're going
to chat about his bisexuality, his family, and the future
(01:14):
of representation in the AFL. Here it is, let's talk
about that identity, and let's talk about some of the
stereotypes that exist around bisexuality. I want to kind of
foreshadow what I think the comments section might look like
(01:35):
on our chat, and I want to ask whether you're
worried about being dismissed because you have a female partner
and you present, as you've said, as what many would
stereotype as a straight man.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It does does worry me. It worries me to a point.
But at the end of the day, I'm strong enough.
I know who I am, I know the people that
I love, and that's all that matters to me. But
I think through my experience what I've learned, and as
I grew up, your sexuality or being queer for a
(02:11):
man only meant you're either gay or you're not. There's
no in between. Either can't be, you can't love both,
can't be sexually attracted to both. Bisexuality is not a thing.
It's made up to cover gay men or straight presenting
gay men, right, And this is what I've learned. One
(02:32):
of the powerful lessons I've learned from our young people
is you know, I feel that young people here in
Australia think of sexuality so different. It's so black and white.
For older generations and for young people, sexuality means different things.
Queerness means different things. Being a bisexual man can look different,
(02:53):
and it does look different.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Bisexual people face discrimination not just from the straight communit,
but also from other members of the LGBT community. There's
this sense of being too gay for straight spaces and
too straight for gay spaces. Have you experienced that sort
of double rejection?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You know what I've experienced, especially my history and my
background grew up in the country. I've got a you know,
an identical twin brother who played football as well, stoic
and strong. I definitely like I feel sometimes like I
question my own place in the queer community. And you know,
(03:35):
look at you, you're a white male privilege looking the
way you do, trying to step into our trauma that's
ours and I acknowledge that too, like the first one
to understand that and to admit my journey has been
relatively easy. The fact that I can see here and
say I'm comfortable and strong in talking about my sexuality
(03:58):
such a privilege, because I know there's so many people
out there, so many men out there that especially bisexual
men or straight presenting men with a strong masculine friendship group,
or you know, they may be married to a woman
or have a girlfriend that's a woman having these feelings
(04:21):
questioning or being attracted to another man and feeling shamed
and embarrassed about it. And part of the reason why
I wanted to share some of my experiences is so
those people, whether they want to start talking about it
with their partner or with their friends or someone in
their community, that they feel seen and that it's okay.
(04:45):
It's okay to have these feelings. You're not any less
of a man, whatever that means, you know. I remember
the comments from Gil McLaughlin, CEO of the AFL.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I wanted to ask you about them. He said that
he can understand why nobody has come out in the
men's game, because why would anybody want that burden? How
does that make you feel in the seat that you're
in now.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I remember those comments, and the conversation in the locker
room just exacerbated that fear even more. If you're a
gay man or a bisexual man, sitting in that locker
room because the players would be like, oh can you
imagine this?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
This?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Or I even heard the one night, you know, I'd
even do it. I would even pretend so I could
get some money out of it or anything like that.
It's like, it's absurd, But I remember those comments, and
it's really easy for me as a pass player. You know,
(05:51):
I don't have to run out there at the MCG
in front of eighty thousand fans next week. I don't
have to fly over to a hostile Adelaide oval and
and fear the comments being thrown at me. But I
can imagine for a player that, you know, this is
their livelihood, this is a job, that a workplace that
provides income for their family and their future. Maybe it's
(06:12):
worth not saying anything and then having a football career,
successful football career, because if you don't say anything, I
can still and I'm still playing good football, and then
I can finish, retire and then sail off to the
sunset and go find my community.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So what would you say to them? Then? What would
you say to gay or bisexual men currently playing in
the AFL?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
What I would say, and this is, you know, there
are currently games and bisexual men playing the AFL at
the moment and in the past. You know, I only
feel okay to I guess in quotations. Take this title.
This is not about me. It's not about Mitch Brown
being the first at all.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
For me.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
It's about sharing my experience so others can feel seen,
others can have a role model. I'm not famous. Previously,
many people wouldn't know that I'm played for ten years.
But to have someone and then maybe there will be
(07:22):
that second person, and then the third, maybe there'll be
a current player, and as that community grows, the empathy grows.
If this has an impact on one person, it's worth it.
It matters what are you.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Hoping That AFL says in response to hearing.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
This interview, My advice to the AFL would be to
celebrate positive male role models. We celebrate the ones who
are successful in the eyes of whether it's wealth or
the amount of disposals you get on the weekend. You know,
CFL would be Let's celebrate the players. You know, they
(08:03):
may not be the most successful, but they are the
most important players in our community, the ones who are
walking down the street and portraying positive male role model.
All the time, do.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You think when there's players making homophobic slurs on the field,
like the one that we're talking about at the moment,
AzaC Grankin, as we head into a final series, do
you think that match bands is the tool that you
would be using to try and prevent these from happening
in the future.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I thought about this a lot, and you know, personally,
it doesn't affect me or I don't feel strongly either way,
whether you know a player cops a five week band
or a one week or nothing. What matters to me
most is a sense of change, a movement created where
you can be anyone and feel like you can be
(09:00):
anyone and be safe in any environment here in Australia,
and I understand, like I've got two young boys that
I love very much, and as a parent you often
think about what's the future of for them and what
do you want for them? And you know they're a
sporting nation. The boys are going to play sport. All
(09:21):
that I care about is there no matter of environment
they are, whether it's in the group chat, whether it's
in their basketball or footy team, whether it's at school,
they feel safe and comfortable to be whoever they want.
To be.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
What do you hope they think when one day they're
a bit young now probably to sit through the length
of this, but what do you hope that they think
about you when they watch this one day?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I mean, this is one of my This is one
of my fears is you know, will they get bullied
when they get a bit older? You know what kind
of comments or articles will click on when they have
access to the internet. But overriding those thoughts, those negative thoughts,
I mean, they were proud. Last night I shared with
(10:10):
the boy's mum, my ex wife, Shay, what I was
going to do. I mean that was really important for me,
and I was to be honest worried about her reaction.
Would she will be worried about the reaction of the
community and how that would affect our two boys who
are very young. And it surprised me. She reacted really well.
(10:35):
She sent me a text message actually this morning and
I'd like to share it says good luck this morning.
I'm so proud of you and right behind you all
the way. This will make the world a slightly better
place for our boys and young men in Australia, hopefully
(10:56):
old men too. This is living the values of the
kind of man. I want our boys to grow up
to be men that care and are proud of who
they are. You know what matters most is starting a
chain reaction, starting a movement. I mean, I'm in this position,
(11:17):
strong and comfortable to, as Gil McLaughlin says, take the
burden and if that, if someone needed to do it,
I'm in the space to do it. And I've done it.
And hopefully this now provides the safety, the comfort and
the space for the second person. And I mean, who's
(11:39):
counting anyway?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You're shown unbelievable wisdom, maturity, compassion in this chat. Leave
us with some guidance. What's the best way for footy
fans and for your loved ones, even the ones or
especially the ones that are learning this for the first time.
What's the best way for them to show up? From here?
(12:03):
I'm interested for you, but also for the sport and
for the AFL and for young men in general. What
can we do?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I've mentioned the power of uplifting role models, and I've
mentioned the power of empathy. I think that if you
can find it somewhere in your heart, whether you're sitting
there watching football on the weekend or you're sitting next
to your brother, to have a sense of empathy, that hey,
(12:32):
they might be that very person that might be suppressing feelings,
They might be that person that is feeling so trapped
and unhappy because they can't be who they are. And
if they can have even a little bit of sense
of hey, you know what, it's okay. That sense of empathy,
(12:54):
even just a fraction, I think it will make it
a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Mitch, thank you for showing up today and for being
the man that you are.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Thanks for providing the space.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Sale, thanks for joining us today, and importantly thank you
to Mitch for telling his story. If you need support
or someone to talk to at any time, you can
contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or queue life on
one eight hundred one eight four five two seven. We'll
speak to you on Monday. My name is Lily Maddon
(13:28):
and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkottin woman from Gadigol Country.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to
all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay
our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both
past and present,
Already, and this is the daily. This is the daily.
This is the daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday,
the twenty ninth of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski. Yesterday we
brought you the first half of our historic chat with
(00:23):
former AFL player Mitch Brown.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I played in AFL for ten years, and I'm a
bisexual man.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
In Sitting Down with TDA, Mitch became the first male player,
past or present in one hundred and twenty nine years
to be openly gay or bisexual.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
The AFL community is uniting behind former West Coast Mitch Brown.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
The first openly bisexual man in the AFL's one hundred
and thirty year history.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Power do you, Mitch Brown? Power you? This is going
to help so many more people than you'll ever know now.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
In the final moments of Part one, I asked Mitch
about his decision to retire from the AFL at just
twenty eight and whether it was connected to the homophobia
he witnessed in the locker room and on the field
and the constant grappling with his identity. In Part two
of our game changing chat with Mitch Brown, we're going
to chat about his bisexuality, his family, and the future
(01:14):
of representation in the AFL. Here it is, let's talk
about that identity, and let's talk about some of the
stereotypes that exist around bisexuality. I want to kind of
foreshadow what I think the comments section might look like
(01:35):
on our chat, and I want to ask whether you're
worried about being dismissed because you have a female partner
and you present, as you've said, as what many would
stereotype as a straight man.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It does does worry me. It worries me to a point.
But at the end of the day, I'm strong enough.
I know who I am, I know the people that
I love, and that's all that matters to me. But
I think through my experience what I've learned, and as
I grew up, your sexuality or being queer for a
(02:11):
man only meant you're either gay or you're not. There's
no in between. Either can't be, you can't love both,
can't be sexually attracted to both. Bisexuality is not a thing.
It's made up to cover gay men or straight presenting
gay men, right, And this is what I've learned. One
(02:32):
of the powerful lessons I've learned from our young people
is you know, I feel that young people here in
Australia think of sexuality so different. It's so black and white.
For older generations and for young people, sexuality means different things.
Queerness means different things. Being a bisexual man can look different,
(02:53):
and it does look different.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Bisexual people face discrimination not just from the straight communit,
but also from other members of the LGBT community. There's
this sense of being too gay for straight spaces and
too straight for gay spaces. Have you experienced that sort
of double rejection?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You know what I've experienced, especially my history and my
background grew up in the country. I've got a you know,
an identical twin brother who played football as well, stoic
and strong. I definitely like I feel sometimes like I
question my own place in the queer community. And you know,
(03:35):
look at you, you're a white male privilege looking the
way you do, trying to step into our trauma that's
ours and I acknowledge that too, like the first one
to understand that and to admit my journey has been
relatively easy. The fact that I can see here and
say I'm comfortable and strong in talking about my sexuality
(03:58):
such a privilege, because I know there's so many people
out there, so many men out there that especially bisexual
men or straight presenting men with a strong masculine friendship group,
or you know, they may be married to a woman
or have a girlfriend that's a woman having these feelings
(04:21):
questioning or being attracted to another man and feeling shamed
and embarrassed about it. And part of the reason why
I wanted to share some of my experiences is so
those people, whether they want to start talking about it
with their partner or with their friends or someone in
their community, that they feel seen and that it's okay.
(04:45):
It's okay to have these feelings. You're not any less
of a man, whatever that means, you know. I remember
the comments from Gil McLaughlin, CEO of the AFL.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I wanted to ask you about them. He said that
he can understand why nobody has come out in the
men's game, because why would anybody want that burden? How
does that make you feel in the seat that you're
in now.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I remember those comments, and the conversation in the locker
room just exacerbated that fear even more. If you're a
gay man or a bisexual man, sitting in that locker
room because the players would be like, oh can you
imagine this?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
This?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Or I even heard the one night, you know, I'd
even do it. I would even pretend so I could
get some money out of it or anything like that.
It's like, it's absurd, But I remember those comments, and
it's really easy for me as a pass player. You know,
(05:51):
I don't have to run out there at the MCG
in front of eighty thousand fans next week. I don't
have to fly over to a hostile Adelaide oval and
and fear the comments being thrown at me. But I
can imagine for a player that, you know, this is
their livelihood, this is a job, that a workplace that
provides income for their family and their future. Maybe it's
(06:12):
worth not saying anything and then having a football career,
successful football career, because if you don't say anything, I
can still and I'm still playing good football, and then
I can finish, retire and then sail off to the
sunset and go find my community.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So what would you say to them? Then? What would
you say to gay or bisexual men currently playing in
the AFL?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
What I would say, and this is, you know, there
are currently games and bisexual men playing the AFL at
the moment and in the past. You know, I only
feel okay to I guess in quotations. Take this title.
This is not about me. It's not about Mitch Brown
being the first at all.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
For me.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
It's about sharing my experience so others can feel seen,
others can have a role model. I'm not famous. Previously,
many people wouldn't know that I'm played for ten years.
But to have someone and then maybe there will be
(07:22):
that second person, and then the third, maybe there'll be
a current player, and as that community grows, the empathy grows.
If this has an impact on one person, it's worth it.
It matters what are you.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Hoping That AFL says in response to hearing.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
This interview, My advice to the AFL would be to
celebrate positive male role models. We celebrate the ones who
are successful in the eyes of whether it's wealth or
the amount of disposals you get on the weekend. You know,
CFL would be Let's celebrate the players. You know, they
(08:03):
may not be the most successful, but they are the
most important players in our community, the ones who are
walking down the street and portraying positive male role model.
All the time, do.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
You think when there's players making homophobic slurs on the field,
like the one that we're talking about at the moment,
AzaC Grankin, as we head into a final series, do
you think that match bands is the tool that you
would be using to try and prevent these from happening
in the future.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I thought about this a lot, and you know, personally,
it doesn't affect me or I don't feel strongly either way,
whether you know a player cops a five week band
or a one week or nothing. What matters to me
most is a sense of change, a movement created where
you can be anyone and feel like you can be
(09:00):
anyone and be safe in any environment here in Australia,
and I understand, like I've got two young boys that
I love very much, and as a parent you often
think about what's the future of for them and what
do you want for them? And you know they're a
sporting nation. The boys are going to play sport. All
(09:21):
that I care about is there no matter of environment
they are, whether it's in the group chat, whether it's
in their basketball or footy team, whether it's at school,
they feel safe and comfortable to be whoever they want.
To be.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
What do you hope they think when one day they're
a bit young now probably to sit through the length
of this, but what do you hope that they think
about you when they watch this one day?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I mean, this is one of my This is one
of my fears is you know, will they get bullied
when they get a bit older? You know what kind
of comments or articles will click on when they have
access to the internet. But overriding those thoughts, those negative thoughts,
I mean, they were proud. Last night I shared with
(10:10):
the boy's mum, my ex wife, Shay, what I was
going to do. I mean that was really important for me,
and I was to be honest worried about her reaction.
Would she will be worried about the reaction of the
community and how that would affect our two boys who
are very young. And it surprised me. She reacted really well.
(10:35):
She sent me a text message actually this morning and
I'd like to share it says good luck this morning.
I'm so proud of you and right behind you all
the way. This will make the world a slightly better
place for our boys and young men in Australia, hopefully
(10:56):
old men too. This is living the values of the
kind of man. I want our boys to grow up
to be men that care and are proud of who
they are. You know what matters most is starting a
chain reaction, starting a movement. I mean, I'm in this position,
(11:17):
strong and comfortable to, as Gil McLaughlin says, take the
burden and if that, if someone needed to do it,
I'm in the space to do it. And I've done it.
And hopefully this now provides the safety, the comfort and
the space for the second person. And I mean, who's
(11:39):
counting anyway?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You're shown unbelievable wisdom, maturity, compassion in this chat. Leave
us with some guidance. What's the best way for footy
fans and for your loved ones, even the ones or
especially the ones that are learning this for the first time.
What's the best way for them to show up? From here?
(12:03):
I'm interested for you, but also for the sport and
for the AFL and for young men in general. What
can we do?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I've mentioned the power of uplifting role models, and I've
mentioned the power of empathy. I think that if you
can find it somewhere in your heart, whether you're sitting
there watching football on the weekend or you're sitting next
to your brother, to have a sense of empathy, that hey,
(12:32):
they might be that very person that might be suppressing feelings,
They might be that person that is feeling so trapped
and unhappy because they can't be who they are. And
if they can have even a little bit of sense
of hey, you know what, it's okay. That sense of empathy,
(12:54):
even just a fraction, I think it will make it
a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Mitch, thank you for showing up today and for being
the man that you are.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Thanks for providing the space.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Sale, thanks for joining us today, and importantly thank you
to Mitch for telling his story. If you need support
or someone to talk to at any time, you can
contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or queue life on
one eight hundred one eight four five two seven. We'll
speak to you on Monday. My name is Lily Maddon
(13:28):
and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkottin woman from Gadigol Country.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to
all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay
our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both
past and present,
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