December 25, 2024 • 13 mins
A new digital player is helping to shape public discourse online. How an audience feels about a brand, a narrative, a personality or a scandal is being moulded by the rise of… bots. PR bots, to be exact. These bots can be programmed to target your social media algorithms and the content you do or don’t get served. In today’s podcast, we’ll explore how these digital armies can be mobilised to influence public opinion and even elections.
Hosts: Chloe Christie and Zara Seidler
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already, and this is the daily This is the Daily
os oh. Now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning and welcome to the Daly Ohs.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I'm Zara and over the next little while, we're going
to be bringing you a bonus series featuring our favorite
deep dives from twenty twenty four. We've put together the
best deep dives to listen to on the beach, road,
tripping when you don't want to talk to the person
next to you, or just reflecting on the year that was.
Welcome to tda's summer series. Earlier this year, we did
(00:40):
a deep dive into the new digital player helping to
shape public discourse online. Now the TLDR is the bots
are targeting your social media algorithms and the content that
you get served online. In today's deep dive, Chloe explores
how these digital armies are being mobilized to influence public opinion.
It's a fascinating element of our online world. So without
(01:03):
further ado, let's get into the episode. Now, Chloe, you've
become something of a bot.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Expert in the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
But for anyone that hasn't spent as much time in
the weeds of bot mania as you have, Yes, can
you just explain what exactly is a bot?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I have been in the weeds of the botmania. It's
quite a place to be, and it can sound really
techy when we talk about this stuff, but it's pretty
much every time you jump on social media and you
see somewhat of a spammy comment on a popular Instagram account.
Just look at the Daily Yours's account, you'll see plenty
of them.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Excellent plug, excellent plug.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
You'll see them most often in the comment section within
seconds of making a post on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, and I feel like, you know, even if you
just look at our Instagram, you're seeing things like how
coach Sarah changed my life. They changed the name of
Sarah to multiple different women.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But there you go.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
There's some like semi nude women that have come up
in gifts in our comment section.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Click on my io you'll get rich fast.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
So those sorts of comments you're saying, those are coming
from bot accounts, right.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeap, So that is a bot account. But when we
look at bots more broadly, bots are programmed to perform automated,
repetitive tasks over a network. Okay, so they're deliberately designed
to mimic human behavior. They look like humans, they sound
like real users. Only bots can generate content at a
speed and a scale that we humans simply couldn't. So
(02:26):
that's thousands upon thousands of comments a day. There are
some helpful bots like chat gpt is, a chatbot, Siri Alexa,
but others, as we know, are less helpful.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
They are less helpful, but they are absolutely everywhere. Like
it takes, you know, one second of looking, as you said,
at a popular account and you just get flooded with
this stuff. How significant I mean, I'm just using anecdotal
evidence here, So how significant are the presence of these
bots in the online world.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, it's wild. And to give you a sense of
the scale of things, nearly half of all online traffic
in twenty twenty three came from fake users.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
That is crazy.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So bots, yeah, now, that's according to a new report
by IT security firm Imperva, which also found that bad
bots programmed to defraud and scam users accounted for nearly
one third of all of that traffic.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I mean, I knew they were everywhere, but that's really
there everywhere.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
They're everywhere.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And so when we're thinking about bots, you know, I
think that anyone that has spent time on the internet
knows not to click on you know, come earn money
with me with your crypto dollars, you know in our
comment section. But what are some of the other ways
the bots show up or the other ways that they
can I guess influence behaviors or conversations.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well, that's a whole different podcast about how people are
scammed and frauded into clicking on things that they shouldn't.
But what I was really interested in was the way
bots can be used to make an opinion seem like
a fact, or to make it feel and zeem as
though it has either widespread support or widespace opposition for something.
What does that do for real users online? Because if
(04:04):
you can gear thousands upon thousands of accounts to push
a certain narrative, that can be really dangerous if we
think about elections or democracy or just public discourse at large.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's a really interesting topic, but it does still seem
quite up there, and I would love to bring it
down to down here. Is there an example that you
can just provide, I guess to give some orientation as
to what you're actually talking about here.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
So let's just say you're scrolling on X and you
read a bunch of different tweets, retweets shares comments of
those tweets saying apples are really really bad for you
and instead you should be buying oranges. This is really basic,
but just still wrapping heads around it. You're probably going
to start feeling a little bit suss about apples, even
though you might really like them. You just sort of
(04:49):
have a bit of questions about that. You might even
consider buying more oranges. And bots can create these spaces
that feel like communities are sharing ideas that it's just
normal people talking about how we all don't really like apples,
but there is an agenda at play. Now when you
consider the influence that, as I said, this could have
on politics or elections.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Not just apples and oranges, Not just.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Apples and oranges, it can be really scary.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
What are the experts say about bots?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Because you know, they are a fairly new phenomenon, but
there must be a body of research out there.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I reached out to a bot doc.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Of course, a bot doc has a dock of bot.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
She does have a real name. Her name is doctor
Sophia Mellinson Richard done from Canada's McMaster University. Now She
did a PhD on Bota gander when bot armies generate
mass content to saturate social media feeds and then manipulate audiences.
So doctor Richardoni told me about something called hashtag flooding,
(05:47):
which is essentially a tweet containing nothing but popularized keywords
and catchphrases in the form of hashtag.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
After hashtag up to hashtag so annoying, so annoying.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Now, this tactic, as well as the rapid resharing of
human posts so twenty five thousand in ten minutes, can create,
like we were saying before, this illusion of widespread support
or widespread opposition for specific viewpoints. She says that this
happens as though the idea embedded in the tweed came
from grassroots popularization. So when we're talking about mimicking human behavior,
(06:20):
it's this feeling of oh, everyone thinks.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
This, and you want to be a part of the everyone.
Like that's the human condition, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It's the concept of herd mentality, which is the idea
that individuals naturally want to conform to the dominant view
of the community.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's so fascinating, and the reason that
you came to I don't want to say, become obsessed
with this topic, but I mean had started your fascination
was around one example that we've seen in the last
couple of years.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Talk me through the Johnny Depp Amber Herd story.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I don't know if many people remember what the internet
looked like in twenty twenty two during the Johnny Depp
amber her defamation trial, but I recently listened to a
six part podcast that brought me right back there. So
for people who need a refresher on the story. Essentially,
Johnny Depp filed a lawsuit against his ex wife Amber
heard over an opinion article Herd wrote for The Washington Post.
(07:16):
She alleged she had experienced domestic abuse. Her didn't name Debt,
but he launched defamation proceedings against her, arguing he was
identifiable from the article and depth denies claims that he
physically abused her. Now, a jury in Fairfax County, Virginia
ultimately sided with Depp, and Herd was sued for defaming him.
But I think you might remember that the court proceedings
(07:38):
were streamed online.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, so I was going to say, can you, in
the minds of our listeners connect what we've just been
talking about which is you know all of this stuff
about bots and this case, what's the connection here?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So as the case played out in the courtroom, the
internet mounted its own unofficial trial of Amber Heard. This
is the premise of the podcast I was talking about earlier,
Who Trolled Amber? It's by UK media organization Tortoise. The
podcast found that a large part of the online hate
campaign against her was actually manufactured and executed by bot accounts.
(08:13):
Now I spoke to Xavia Greenwood, he produced the Who
Trolled Amber podcast.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Some of the main themes were that Amber Heerd deserves prison,
Amber Heard as a gold digger, Amber Heard as a fraud,
Amber Heard as a liar. To give you a sense
of the scale of things, there was a hashtag justice
for Johnny Depp that was viewed fifteen point seven billion
times hashtag just as Amber Heerd viewed a fraction of that,
and my friends were suddenly saying things that didn't really
(08:40):
sound like them. They were saying, well, you know what
if this time she was the abuser. And these were
people who typically in the Me too movement would be
a bit more cynical or maybe a bit more reserved
in making a judgment like that. So yeah, from the beginning,
we sort of saw that this was quite suspicious.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
What else did this investigation uncover?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The team Tortoise brought together a database of over one
million anti amber Heard tweets, and they brought it together
and they found that more than half of them were inauthentic.
So what that means is either they were posted from
spam accounts with three followers and they were built in
the last two months, or they were amplified in an
(09:20):
inauthentic way so reshared and reshared thousands upon thousands of times.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Okay, I think the thing that I wonder when I
hear about this story is like, who is behind this
trolling campaign? It's very clear who benefits from it, but
who's behind it.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
We don't know. According to the investigation, the team could
hypothesize multiple different scenarios and their likely were multiple different
agendas at play.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, it's crazy, So this could.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Be genuine Johnny Depp fans who can acquire bots for
pretty cheap online and push support for their favorite actor
in other scenarios. Xavier floats what he calls a more
abstract theory.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
I think it's sort of fairly widely known now that
authoritarian regimes who want to sow discouse or want to
cause confusion in the West that they seek out wedge issues.
So they seek out issues which divide Britain's, divide Americans,
divide Australians. They try to sort of drive a deeper wedge.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
But something that really stuck with me from my conversation
with Xavier was a point he made about the future
of political discourse on social media.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
If you can attack a celebrity who has enormous an
enormous amount of resources, as Amberhard did, was to stop
someone doing the same thing when it comes to attacking
a politician or when it comes to trying to sway
an election.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I mean, we're talking there about elections, and we of
course know that there is one coming up just around
the corner in the US. Are we expecting to see
this sort of interference from bots in the US election
this year?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
We already have. Last month, the Biden administration charged Russian
media executives over an alleged targeted online campaign to influence
voters in the US and push hidden Russian government messaging.
Now it comes after US officials seized thirty two Internet
domain names that were covertly targeting specific demographics on social
(11:16):
media and promoting AI generated false narratives and pushing that
to those groups.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Okay, so there are ready allegations that we've seen this
at play when it comes to the US election. Ye,
I mean, I think that a natural endpoint here is
that if we're talking about the fact that even the
most powerful institutions, people, whatever, in the world can be
susceptible to this kind of bodagander, as we'll call it,
what is like an average dough like you or I
(11:43):
meant to do when it comes to protecting yourself against something.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Like this, Well, that was what came back in so
many of the conversations I was having. For the average
dough like you and me, A lot of it comes
down to awareness, staying vigilant, staying curious, question what you're
getting served, who's pushing it. And that's generally for anything
that you've seen online, but particularly when you're thinking something
looks a bit spammy, it likely might be it's important
(12:06):
to be critical about the content you're seeing before you
form an opinion, especially ahead of an election. Now, as
for what comes next, Xavier Greenwood says, we're largely in
uncharted waters.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
What we saw with Amber heard trial, we may well
continue to see in an even more intense way in
the future. To some extent, the genie is out at
the box.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Thanks for listening to today's episode of tda's summer series.
We'll be back again tomorrow with another of our favorite
deep dives, but until then, have a wonderfully warm day.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges
that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Already, and this is the daily This is the Daily
os oh. Now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning and welcome to the Daly Ohs.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I'm Zara and over the next little while, we're going
to be bringing you a bonus series featuring our favorite
deep dives from twenty twenty four. We've put together the
best deep dives to listen to on the beach, road,
tripping when you don't want to talk to the person
next to you, or just reflecting on the year that was.
Welcome to tda's summer series. Earlier this year, we did
(00:40):
a deep dive into the new digital player helping to
shape public discourse online. Now the TLDR is the bots
are targeting your social media algorithms and the content that
you get served online. In today's deep dive, Chloe explores
how these digital armies are being mobilized to influence public opinion.
It's a fascinating element of our online world. So without
(01:03):
further ado, let's get into the episode. Now, Chloe, you've
become something of a bot.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Expert in the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
But for anyone that hasn't spent as much time in
the weeds of bot mania as you have, Yes, can
you just explain what exactly is a bot?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I have been in the weeds of the botmania. It's
quite a place to be, and it can sound really
techy when we talk about this stuff, but it's pretty
much every time you jump on social media and you
see somewhat of a spammy comment on a popular Instagram account.
Just look at the Daily Yours's account, you'll see plenty
of them.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Excellent plug, excellent plug.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
You'll see them most often in the comment section within
seconds of making a post on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, and I feel like, you know, even if you
just look at our Instagram, you're seeing things like how
coach Sarah changed my life. They changed the name of
Sarah to multiple different women.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But there you go.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
There's some like semi nude women that have come up
in gifts in our comment section.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Click on my io you'll get rich fast.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
So those sorts of comments you're saying, those are coming
from bot accounts, right.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeap, So that is a bot account. But when we
look at bots more broadly, bots are programmed to perform automated,
repetitive tasks over a network. Okay, so they're deliberately designed
to mimic human behavior. They look like humans, they sound
like real users. Only bots can generate content at a
speed and a scale that we humans simply couldn't. So
(02:26):
that's thousands upon thousands of comments a day. There are
some helpful bots like chat gpt is, a chatbot, Siri Alexa,
but others, as we know, are less helpful.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
They are less helpful, but they are absolutely everywhere. Like
it takes, you know, one second of looking, as you said,
at a popular account and you just get flooded with
this stuff. How significant I mean, I'm just using anecdotal
evidence here, So how significant are the presence of these
bots in the online world.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, it's wild. And to give you a sense of
the scale of things, nearly half of all online traffic
in twenty twenty three came from fake users.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
That is crazy.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So bots, yeah, now, that's according to a new report
by IT security firm Imperva, which also found that bad
bots programmed to defraud and scam users accounted for nearly
one third of all of that traffic.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I mean, I knew they were everywhere, but that's really
there everywhere.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
They're everywhere.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And so when we're thinking about bots, you know, I
think that anyone that has spent time on the internet
knows not to click on you know, come earn money
with me with your crypto dollars, you know in our
comment section. But what are some of the other ways
the bots show up or the other ways that they
can I guess influence behaviors or conversations.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well, that's a whole different podcast about how people are
scammed and frauded into clicking on things that they shouldn't.
But what I was really interested in was the way
bots can be used to make an opinion seem like
a fact, or to make it feel and zeem as
though it has either widespread support or widespace opposition for something.
What does that do for real users online? Because if
(04:04):
you can gear thousands upon thousands of accounts to push
a certain narrative, that can be really dangerous if we
think about elections or democracy or just public discourse at large.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's a really interesting topic, but it does still seem
quite up there, and I would love to bring it
down to down here. Is there an example that you
can just provide, I guess to give some orientation as
to what you're actually talking about here.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
So let's just say you're scrolling on X and you
read a bunch of different tweets, retweets shares comments of
those tweets saying apples are really really bad for you
and instead you should be buying oranges. This is really basic,
but just still wrapping heads around it. You're probably going
to start feeling a little bit suss about apples, even
though you might really like them. You just sort of
(04:49):
have a bit of questions about that. You might even
consider buying more oranges. And bots can create these spaces
that feel like communities are sharing ideas that it's just
normal people talking about how we all don't really like apples,
but there is an agenda at play. Now when you
consider the influence that, as I said, this could have
on politics or elections.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Not just apples and oranges, Not just.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Apples and oranges, it can be really scary.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
What are the experts say about bots?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Because you know, they are a fairly new phenomenon, but
there must be a body of research out there.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I reached out to a bot doc.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Of course, a bot doc has a dock of bot.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
She does have a real name. Her name is doctor
Sophia Mellinson Richard done from Canada's McMaster University. Now She
did a PhD on Bota gander when bot armies generate
mass content to saturate social media feeds and then manipulate audiences.
So doctor Richardoni told me about something called hashtag flooding,
(05:47):
which is essentially a tweet containing nothing but popularized keywords
and catchphrases in the form of hashtag.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
After hashtag up to hashtag so annoying, so annoying.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Now, this tactic, as well as the rapid resharing of
human posts so twenty five thousand in ten minutes, can create,
like we were saying before, this illusion of widespread support
or widespread opposition for specific viewpoints. She says that this
happens as though the idea embedded in the tweed came
from grassroots popularization. So when we're talking about mimicking human behavior,
(06:20):
it's this feeling of oh, everyone thinks.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
This, and you want to be a part of the everyone.
Like that's the human condition, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It's the concept of herd mentality, which is the idea
that individuals naturally want to conform to the dominant view
of the community.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's so fascinating, and the reason that
you came to I don't want to say, become obsessed
with this topic, but I mean had started your fascination
was around one example that we've seen in the last
couple of years.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Talk me through the Johnny Depp Amber Herd story.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I don't know if many people remember what the internet
looked like in twenty twenty two during the Johnny Depp
amber her defamation trial, but I recently listened to a
six part podcast that brought me right back there. So
for people who need a refresher on the story. Essentially,
Johnny Depp filed a lawsuit against his ex wife Amber
heard over an opinion article Herd wrote for The Washington Post.
(07:16):
She alleged she had experienced domestic abuse. Her didn't name Debt,
but he launched defamation proceedings against her, arguing he was
identifiable from the article and depth denies claims that he
physically abused her. Now, a jury in Fairfax County, Virginia
ultimately sided with Depp, and Herd was sued for defaming him.
But I think you might remember that the court proceedings
(07:38):
were streamed online.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, so I was going to say, can you, in
the minds of our listeners connect what we've just been
talking about which is you know all of this stuff
about bots and this case, what's the connection here?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So as the case played out in the courtroom, the
internet mounted its own unofficial trial of Amber Heard. This
is the premise of the podcast I was talking about earlier,
Who Trolled Amber? It's by UK media organization Tortoise. The
podcast found that a large part of the online hate
campaign against her was actually manufactured and executed by bot accounts.
(08:13):
Now I spoke to Xavia Greenwood, he produced the Who
Trolled Amber podcast.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Some of the main themes were that Amber Heerd deserves prison,
Amber Heard as a gold digger, Amber Heard as a fraud,
Amber Heard as a liar. To give you a sense
of the scale of things, there was a hashtag justice
for Johnny Depp that was viewed fifteen point seven billion
times hashtag just as Amber Heerd viewed a fraction of that,
and my friends were suddenly saying things that didn't really
(08:40):
sound like them. They were saying, well, you know what
if this time she was the abuser. And these were
people who typically in the Me too movement would be
a bit more cynical or maybe a bit more reserved
in making a judgment like that. So yeah, from the beginning,
we sort of saw that this was quite suspicious.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
What else did this investigation uncover?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The team Tortoise brought together a database of over one
million anti amber Heard tweets, and they brought it together
and they found that more than half of them were inauthentic.
So what that means is either they were posted from
spam accounts with three followers and they were built in
the last two months, or they were amplified in an
(09:20):
inauthentic way so reshared and reshared thousands upon thousands of times.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Okay, I think the thing that I wonder when I
hear about this story is like, who is behind this
trolling campaign? It's very clear who benefits from it, but
who's behind it.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
We don't know. According to the investigation, the team could
hypothesize multiple different scenarios and their likely were multiple different
agendas at play.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, it's crazy, So this could.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Be genuine Johnny Depp fans who can acquire bots for
pretty cheap online and push support for their favorite actor
in other scenarios. Xavier floats what he calls a more
abstract theory.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
I think it's sort of fairly widely known now that
authoritarian regimes who want to sow discouse or want to
cause confusion in the West that they seek out wedge issues.
So they seek out issues which divide Britain's, divide Americans,
divide Australians. They try to sort of drive a deeper wedge.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
But something that really stuck with me from my conversation
with Xavier was a point he made about the future
of political discourse on social media.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
If you can attack a celebrity who has enormous an
enormous amount of resources, as Amberhard did, was to stop
someone doing the same thing when it comes to attacking
a politician or when it comes to trying to sway
an election.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I mean, we're talking there about elections, and we of
course know that there is one coming up just around
the corner in the US. Are we expecting to see
this sort of interference from bots in the US election
this year?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
We already have. Last month, the Biden administration charged Russian
media executives over an alleged targeted online campaign to influence
voters in the US and push hidden Russian government messaging.
Now it comes after US officials seized thirty two Internet
domain names that were covertly targeting specific demographics on social
(11:16):
media and promoting AI generated false narratives and pushing that
to those groups.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Okay, so there are ready allegations that we've seen this
at play when it comes to the US election. Ye,
I mean, I think that a natural endpoint here is
that if we're talking about the fact that even the
most powerful institutions, people, whatever, in the world can be
susceptible to this kind of bodagander, as we'll call it,
what is like an average dough like you or I
(11:43):
meant to do when it comes to protecting yourself against something.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Like this, Well, that was what came back in so
many of the conversations I was having. For the average
dough like you and me, A lot of it comes
down to awareness, staying vigilant, staying curious, question what you're
getting served, who's pushing it. And that's generally for anything
that you've seen online, but particularly when you're thinking something
looks a bit spammy, it likely might be it's important
(12:06):
to be critical about the content you're seeing before you
form an opinion, especially ahead of an election. Now, as
for what comes next, Xavier Greenwood says, we're largely in
uncharted waters.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
What we saw with Amber heard trial, we may well
continue to see in an even more intense way in
the future. To some extent, the genie is out at
the box.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Thanks for listening to today's episode of tda's summer series.
We'll be back again tomorrow with another of our favorite
deep dives, but until then, have a wonderfully warm day.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges
that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
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