December 5, 2024 • 13 mins
One of Victoria’s oldest cold cases is one step closer to finally being solved.
This week, 65-year-old man Perry Kouroumblis was charged with the murders of Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett at their home on Easey Street in Collingwood, Melbourne, in 1977 – nearly 50 years ago.
Commonly referred to as the Easey Street murders, this has been labelled Victoria’s “most serious… and longest cold case” by Victoria police chief commissioner Shane Patton. We'll tell you what you need to know in today's podcast.
Hosts: Billi FitzSimons and Zara Seidler
Producer: Orla Maher
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already and this is this is the daily This is
the daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning
and welcome to the Daily OS. Today is Friday, the
sixth of December.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Billy, I'm Zara.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
One of Victoria's oldest cold cases is one step closer
to finally being solved.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This week.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Sixty five year old man Perry Crumblis was charged with
the murders of Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett at their
home on Easy Street in Collingwood, Melbourne in nineteen seventy seven.
That's nearly fifty years ago. Commonly referred to as the
Easy Street murders, this has been labeled Victoria's most serious
and longest cold case by Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Shane Patten.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Billy, I'm gonna be real with you. I had never
heard of this case. I've seen headlines over the past
few weeks about it, but I had never done deep
dive of my own. And so to solve that, you
did send me articles that you wrote about it as
a journalist several years ago. So you are the expert
on this story. What do I need to know about it?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And the expert at TDA. But definitely not the true
sorry good beyond TDA. My theory is that most people
who grew up in Melbourne have heard of this case,
but a lot of people elsewhere in the country, like Uzara,
or at least young people who weren't around when these
murders occurred, they haven't heard of this. But like I said,
(01:32):
it's one of Victoria's most notorious murders. And what's been
most captivating has been that authorities have never given up
on trying to find out what exactly happened to these
two women.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
So you said that it was fifty years ago for
anyone that perhaps hasn't followed that story from its beginning
to now, what do we need to understand about it?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So this all happened in January nineteen seventy seven. It
was then that the body of twenty eight year old
Suzanne Armstrong and twenty seven year old Susan Bartlett so
our ages now a Zara. They were so young their
bodies were found. Now, their bodies were found on the
thirteenth of jan and the pair had last been seen
alive on the evening of the tenth of Jan so
(02:16):
that's a three day difference. And they believe that they
were murdered on the tenth of January, but like I said,
their bodies weren't found until three days later. When they
were found, it was clear that they had suffered from
a very horrific homicide. There were multiple stab wounds. Some
reports say that they had been stabbed up to eighty
(02:36):
two times. One police officer this week actually said that
it was an absolutely gruesome, horrific and frenzied homicide. So
inside this three bedroom house that they were living in
at the time. You know, I don't want to go
into the details, but it was just horrific. I mean,
you can only imagine what eighty two stab wounds would
due to the scene of that crime. Also, Suzanne's sixteen
(03:00):
month old son was found.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
In the home.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
His name was Gregory, and he was found unharmed, so
he was alive, and it's understood that he had just
been there in his cot for the three days after
these murders happened.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Okay, so you've set the scene, which is an incredibly
gruesome one, a horrific one. There are these three days
that are kind of unaccounted for. Is what happened next?
That a murder investigation was immediately started.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, police immediately started to try to understand what had
possibly happened. There were a few details there was there
was something like a few different people had potentially come
and gone from that house during those three days, but
they said that they hadn't actually entered the house beyond
the kitchen, so they actually hadn't seen the women. Obviously,
this is also before phones and a lot of.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Technology, highly different.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, so it's kind of hard to understand how
you could possibly enter the house. And but you know,
there were all of these different stories that really made
this a complex case. We know that there were a
number of different suspects, but obviously police couldn't determine exactly
what had happened. And you know, nearly fifty years later,
(04:12):
only now has there been the first charge in relation
to these murders. We do know that this man, Peter Kurumblus,
was a person of interest early on, but like the
other suspects, police obviously didn't have enough evidence to charge
him at the time. Then in January twenty seventeen, so
what's that forty years after, police announced a one million
(04:36):
dollar reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction
of anyone responsible for the deaths of the two women.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Why that long afterwards, Like what changed? If it became
a cold case they weren't able to build enough evidence
to charge anyone. What happened in twenty seventeen that there
was enough interest to reopen this and to have a
reward like that.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I mean, I think there's always been interest in the case.
I know that twenty fifteen they appointed a new police
officer to lead the cold case, but it was just
always an ongoing investigation. And clearly in twenty seventeen they
must have thought that some information came across their desk
that meant that they were potentially closer. What we also
know happened in twenty seventeen is that police did believe
(05:19):
that Kurumblus, who we've talked about, was still a person
of interest. But then he left Australia to live in Greece.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Okay, So in twenty seventeen we understand there's a person
of interest, there's a big reward, but then nothing really
happens here. Fast forward to twenty twenty four. In fact,
this week in twenty twenty four, where this person that
you've just mentioned was a person of interest has now
been charged. You just said that he left Australia to
live in Greece. What's happened since?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So what is now clear is that at some point
between twenty seventeen and this year police eventually knew that
they did want to press charges against this man. But
what confused or made that more complex is that under
Greek law, a suspect can't be charged more than two
decades after the crime they're alleged to have committed, even
(06:10):
if that crime was allegedly committed internationally.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So it's like the statute of limitation exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So basically they were saying, this alleged crime happened too
long ago, so you cannot arrest him. President he charges
against him, he is safe in Greece.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So that's interesting because then Australia wouldn't have been able
to extradite him. The idea is that he wouldn't have
been able to be charged by Australian police in Greece,
so they would have had to extradite him home, which
they couldn't do because the statute of limitations or whatever
it's from there was up exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So they tried to do that and they failed because
of that.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Law in Greece, so then what changed.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So then in September this year, Krumblus visited Italy for
what we understand was probably for a holiday, and when
he got on that plane, Australian authorities got alert saying
that he's on this plane, and then they immediately alerted
Italian authorities to it, and at the airport in Italy
in Rome, he was arrested.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So can I just understand clearly then Italy doesn't have
the same rules as Greece because once he was out
of the I guess protection protection of Greek authorities, he
then was able to be arrested and then extradited back
to Australia.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yes, which we understand he was confused about because actually
one of his lawyers told the ABC in Australia that
Kremblus was surprised when he was arrested. She said he
had no idea he could be stopped and was surprised
to be stopped for something that went back to nineteen
seventy seven in Australia. So he did not give any resistance,
so he just said okay, I'll goay.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean it is a very long pick.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
It is a long time definitely. And then Zara, like
you said, he was extradited from Italy to Australia to
face trial. And he arrived in Australia this week.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
And for anyone listening, just to again reiterate what extradition is.
That is the formal process that happens between countries. So
here we're talking about Italy and Australia. So Australian authorities
have requested that he be sent back essentially to Australia
to face charges.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yes, Billy a question, this was fifty years ago. Is
he an old man now?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So it was nearly fifty years ago. It was about
forty seven years ago. He is now sixty five. So
that means police are alleging that he was around the
age of about seventeen or eighteen at the time that
he allegedly murdered these two women. A reminder of their ages,
they were twenty seven and twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And did police allege that he knew the two women, Well,
we know that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
He lived just a few hundred meters away from the
women at the time. As I mentioned earlier, Corumblus is
not a new suspect in this case, and so he
was actually first interviewed in relation to this murder investigation
or these murder investigations shortly after the murders happened. According
to the Age in Melbourne, who has been reporting on
(09:03):
this story ever since the murders first happened, he was
actually investigated shortly after the crime because police had allegedly
found a knife in his possession that did have blood
on it. But when he was interviewed by police, he
said that he had just found that knife at the
train tracks and it didn't actually belong to him.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And so then has new evidence emerged?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Like if they interviewed him back then came to the
conclusion clearly that there wasn't enough evidence to charge him
with anything, then the passage of a couple of decades
goes by, and now there's enough evidence to charge him,
Like what's changed between now and then?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Police haven't shared too much detail about what exactly was
the final thing that meant that they could press charges
against him. What I do know is that when this
reopened in twenty seventeen, they asked him for a DNA
sample and he did give that to them, Okay, but
we don't know what the final thing was that meant
that now in twenty twenty four they could press those charges.
(10:05):
Important to note that he has always denied any involvement
in the case and still today he maintains his innocence.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
And what specifically has he been charged with? So he
landed on Australian soil and then a mere matter of
hours I believe it was later he was charged one
are those charges.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
So he has been charged with two counts of murder
and also one count of rape. So he has also
been charged with raping Armstrong. So it's alleged that she
was sexually assaulted before she was stabbed to death.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
I mean, it's horrific to think that for so long
a case like this has gone unsolved. What happens from now.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well, the case isn't over. This is just the first
step now in trying to finally solve it. At this point,
what we've detailed here, it's only allegations and it hasn't
been proven in court that Kurumblus murdered these women. He
hasn't been found guilty.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
There is the presumption of innocence.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yes, yes, So the case is due to return to
court in February next year. Until then, the court has
ruled that there can be no application for bail, so
that means that he will remain behind bars until he
next appears in court.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I wonder if that's because of a travel risk, because
if he finds himself back in Greece, they can't get
it back.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Interesting, Okay, So have we heard from the families of
these two young women.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, both of their families have been at court this
week whilst this has played out.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
What an incredible thing it must be for their families
to have thought that for so long they might never
see justice, and then, you know, decades later, potentially they
could get it.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, And I can't even I mean, saying that these
cases would have defined their lives probably doesn't even touch
the surface of how much this would have impacted.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Then.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Like I said, both their families have been at court.
Susan's brother, Marden, said the hearing had provided some sense
of closure for the family, and the families also released
a statement at the time of the arrest. They said,
for two quiet families from country Victoria, it has always
been impossible to comprehend the needless and violent manner in
(12:17):
which Susan and Susanne died and to police. They also said,
for always giving us hope and never giving up. We
simply say thank you. Wow.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I mean clearly such long lasting effects for the families
and everyone involved with this story, and given now that
there is such a major development, it's certainly a story
that we're going to watch with close interest and see
what happens next.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Thanks for explaining, Billy.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Thank you, and thank you so much for listening to
this episode of The Daily os Bit of a heavier
one today. If you are in need of some good news,
make sure to check back in on your podcast feeds
tomorrow morning, where a podcast dedicated to all of the
good news that has happened this week will be waiting
for you in your feed. Thank you so much, and
we'll be back again tomorrow. My name is Lily Maddon
(13:05):
and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Calkaton woman from Gadighl Country.
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
both past and present,
Already and this is this is the daily This is
the daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning
and welcome to the Daily OS. Today is Friday, the
sixth of December.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Billy, I'm Zara.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
One of Victoria's oldest cold cases is one step closer
to finally being solved.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This week.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Sixty five year old man Perry Crumblis was charged with
the murders of Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett at their
home on Easy Street in Collingwood, Melbourne in nineteen seventy seven.
That's nearly fifty years ago. Commonly referred to as the
Easy Street murders, this has been labeled Victoria's most serious
and longest cold case by Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Shane Patten.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Billy, I'm gonna be real with you. I had never
heard of this case. I've seen headlines over the past
few weeks about it, but I had never done deep
dive of my own. And so to solve that, you
did send me articles that you wrote about it as
a journalist several years ago. So you are the expert
on this story. What do I need to know about it?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And the expert at TDA. But definitely not the true
sorry good beyond TDA. My theory is that most people
who grew up in Melbourne have heard of this case,
but a lot of people elsewhere in the country, like Uzara,
or at least young people who weren't around when these
murders occurred, they haven't heard of this. But like I said,
(01:32):
it's one of Victoria's most notorious murders. And what's been
most captivating has been that authorities have never given up
on trying to find out what exactly happened to these
two women.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
So you said that it was fifty years ago for
anyone that perhaps hasn't followed that story from its beginning
to now, what do we need to understand about it?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So this all happened in January nineteen seventy seven. It
was then that the body of twenty eight year old
Suzanne Armstrong and twenty seven year old Susan Bartlett so
our ages now a Zara. They were so young their
bodies were found. Now, their bodies were found on the
thirteenth of jan and the pair had last been seen
alive on the evening of the tenth of Jan so
(02:16):
that's a three day difference. And they believe that they
were murdered on the tenth of January, but like I said,
their bodies weren't found until three days later. When they
were found, it was clear that they had suffered from
a very horrific homicide. There were multiple stab wounds. Some
reports say that they had been stabbed up to eighty
(02:36):
two times. One police officer this week actually said that
it was an absolutely gruesome, horrific and frenzied homicide. So
inside this three bedroom house that they were living in
at the time. You know, I don't want to go
into the details, but it was just horrific. I mean,
you can only imagine what eighty two stab wounds would
due to the scene of that crime. Also, Suzanne's sixteen
(03:00):
month old son was found.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
In the home.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
His name was Gregory, and he was found unharmed, so
he was alive, and it's understood that he had just
been there in his cot for the three days after
these murders happened.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Okay, so you've set the scene, which is an incredibly
gruesome one, a horrific one. There are these three days
that are kind of unaccounted for. Is what happened next?
That a murder investigation was immediately started.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, police immediately started to try to understand what had
possibly happened. There were a few details there was there
was something like a few different people had potentially come
and gone from that house during those three days, but
they said that they hadn't actually entered the house beyond
the kitchen, so they actually hadn't seen the women. Obviously,
this is also before phones and a lot of.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Technology, highly different.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, so it's kind of hard to understand how
you could possibly enter the house. And but you know,
there were all of these different stories that really made
this a complex case. We know that there were a
number of different suspects, but obviously police couldn't determine exactly
what had happened. And you know, nearly fifty years later,
(04:12):
only now has there been the first charge in relation
to these murders. We do know that this man, Peter Kurumblus,
was a person of interest early on, but like the
other suspects, police obviously didn't have enough evidence to charge
him at the time. Then in January twenty seventeen, so
what's that forty years after, police announced a one million
(04:36):
dollar reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction
of anyone responsible for the deaths of the two women.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Why that long afterwards, Like what changed? If it became
a cold case they weren't able to build enough evidence
to charge anyone. What happened in twenty seventeen that there
was enough interest to reopen this and to have a
reward like that.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I mean, I think there's always been interest in the case.
I know that twenty fifteen they appointed a new police
officer to lead the cold case, but it was just
always an ongoing investigation. And clearly in twenty seventeen they
must have thought that some information came across their desk
that meant that they were potentially closer. What we also
know happened in twenty seventeen is that police did believe
(05:19):
that Kurumblus, who we've talked about, was still a person
of interest. But then he left Australia to live in Greece.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Okay, So in twenty seventeen we understand there's a person
of interest, there's a big reward, but then nothing really
happens here. Fast forward to twenty twenty four. In fact,
this week in twenty twenty four, where this person that
you've just mentioned was a person of interest has now
been charged. You just said that he left Australia to
live in Greece. What's happened since?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So what is now clear is that at some point
between twenty seventeen and this year police eventually knew that
they did want to press charges against this man. But
what confused or made that more complex is that under
Greek law, a suspect can't be charged more than two
decades after the crime they're alleged to have committed, even
(06:10):
if that crime was allegedly committed internationally.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So it's like the statute of limitation exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So basically they were saying, this alleged crime happened too
long ago, so you cannot arrest him. President he charges
against him, he is safe in Greece.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So that's interesting because then Australia wouldn't have been able
to extradite him. The idea is that he wouldn't have
been able to be charged by Australian police in Greece,
so they would have had to extradite him home, which
they couldn't do because the statute of limitations or whatever
it's from there was up exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So they tried to do that and they failed because
of that.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Law in Greece, so then what changed.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So then in September this year, Krumblus visited Italy for
what we understand was probably for a holiday, and when
he got on that plane, Australian authorities got alert saying
that he's on this plane, and then they immediately alerted
Italian authorities to it, and at the airport in Italy
in Rome, he was arrested.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So can I just understand clearly then Italy doesn't have
the same rules as Greece because once he was out
of the I guess protection protection of Greek authorities, he
then was able to be arrested and then extradited back
to Australia.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yes, which we understand he was confused about because actually
one of his lawyers told the ABC in Australia that
Kremblus was surprised when he was arrested. She said he
had no idea he could be stopped and was surprised
to be stopped for something that went back to nineteen
seventy seven in Australia. So he did not give any resistance,
so he just said okay, I'll goay.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean it is a very long pick.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
It is a long time definitely. And then Zara, like
you said, he was extradited from Italy to Australia to
face trial. And he arrived in Australia this week.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
And for anyone listening, just to again reiterate what extradition is.
That is the formal process that happens between countries. So
here we're talking about Italy and Australia. So Australian authorities
have requested that he be sent back essentially to Australia
to face charges.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yes, Billy a question, this was fifty years ago. Is
he an old man now?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So it was nearly fifty years ago. It was about
forty seven years ago. He is now sixty five. So
that means police are alleging that he was around the
age of about seventeen or eighteen at the time that
he allegedly murdered these two women. A reminder of their ages,
they were twenty seven and twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And did police allege that he knew the two women, Well,
we know that.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
He lived just a few hundred meters away from the
women at the time. As I mentioned earlier, Corumblus is
not a new suspect in this case, and so he
was actually first interviewed in relation to this murder investigation
or these murder investigations shortly after the murders happened. According
to the Age in Melbourne, who has been reporting on
(09:03):
this story ever since the murders first happened, he was
actually investigated shortly after the crime because police had allegedly
found a knife in his possession that did have blood
on it. But when he was interviewed by police, he
said that he had just found that knife at the
train tracks and it didn't actually belong to him.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And so then has new evidence emerged?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Like if they interviewed him back then came to the
conclusion clearly that there wasn't enough evidence to charge him
with anything, then the passage of a couple of decades
goes by, and now there's enough evidence to charge him,
Like what's changed between now and then?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Police haven't shared too much detail about what exactly was
the final thing that meant that they could press charges
against him. What I do know is that when this
reopened in twenty seventeen, they asked him for a DNA
sample and he did give that to them, Okay, but
we don't know what the final thing was that meant
that now in twenty twenty four they could press those charges.
(10:05):
Important to note that he has always denied any involvement
in the case and still today he maintains his innocence.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
And what specifically has he been charged with? So he
landed on Australian soil and then a mere matter of
hours I believe it was later he was charged one
are those charges.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
So he has been charged with two counts of murder
and also one count of rape. So he has also
been charged with raping Armstrong. So it's alleged that she
was sexually assaulted before she was stabbed to death.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
I mean, it's horrific to think that for so long
a case like this has gone unsolved. What happens from now.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well, the case isn't over. This is just the first
step now in trying to finally solve it. At this point,
what we've detailed here, it's only allegations and it hasn't
been proven in court that Kurumblus murdered these women. He
hasn't been found guilty.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
There is the presumption of innocence.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yes, yes, So the case is due to return to
court in February next year. Until then, the court has
ruled that there can be no application for bail, so
that means that he will remain behind bars until he
next appears in court.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I wonder if that's because of a travel risk, because
if he finds himself back in Greece, they can't get
it back.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Interesting, Okay, So have we heard from the families of
these two young women.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, both of their families have been at court this
week whilst this has played out.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
What an incredible thing it must be for their families
to have thought that for so long they might never
see justice, and then, you know, decades later, potentially they
could get it.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yeah, And I can't even I mean, saying that these
cases would have defined their lives probably doesn't even touch
the surface of how much this would have impacted.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Then.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Like I said, both their families have been at court.
Susan's brother, Marden, said the hearing had provided some sense
of closure for the family, and the families also released
a statement at the time of the arrest. They said,
for two quiet families from country Victoria, it has always
been impossible to comprehend the needless and violent manner in
(12:17):
which Susan and Susanne died and to police. They also said,
for always giving us hope and never giving up. We
simply say thank you. Wow.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I mean clearly such long lasting effects for the families
and everyone involved with this story, and given now that
there is such a major development, it's certainly a story
that we're going to watch with close interest and see
what happens next.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Thanks for explaining, Billy.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Thank you, and thank you so much for listening to
this episode of The Daily os Bit of a heavier
one today. If you are in need of some good news,
make sure to check back in on your podcast feeds
tomorrow morning, where a podcast dedicated to all of the
good news that has happened this week will be waiting
for you in your feed. Thank you so much, and
we'll be back again tomorrow. My name is Lily Maddon
(13:05):
and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Calkaton woman from Gadighl Country.
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
both past and present,
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