August 24, 2025 • 19 mins
Last week, the death of a French man was live-streamed on a platform co-founded by Australia’s youngest billionaire, called Kick. Over two years, thousands of viewers watched the man, who died in his sleep, being physically assaulted in real time by several other people.
In today’s episode, we’ll explain what you should know about the man who died, the streaming platform that saw the last two years of his life unfold, and the Australian billionaire who founded it.
Hosts: Lucy Tassell and Emma Gillespie
Producer: Orla Maher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just a heads up before we get into it. Today's
episode contains distressing themes, including discussions of extreme violence. Already
and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,
the twenty fifth of August.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Last week, the death of a Frenchman was live streamed
on a platform co founded by Australia's youngest billionaire called Kick.
Over two years, thousands of viewers watched the man who
died in his sleep being physically assaulted in real time
by several other people. In today's episode, we'll explain what
you should know about the man who died, the streaming
(00:50):
platform that saw the last two years of his life unfold,
and the Australian billionaire who founded it. Before we get
into today's episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Lucy.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
This is an incredibly distressing case. Many aspects of it
defy belief. What actually happened and how did you find
out about this?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So last week I was scrolling through my social media.
It was before bed, which I know I'm not supposed
to do, but I was doing it anyway, and a
post appeared on my feed that really stopped me in
my tracks. So it was from an account that I
don't follow, but it was one of those things where
the algorithm will give you things to say, like this
is popping off, or maybe this seems like something you're
(01:37):
interested in. I think it came across my path because
it had hundreds of thousands of likes. Yep. This post
is from a person called Sean to Black. That's their username.
They're a twitch streamer. More about that later if you
don't know what a twitch streamer is. But here's what
the post said. Quote French kickstreamers killed a guy live
(01:58):
after abusing him physically and mentally for months. Did I
read that right? That's the whole quote.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah. And when I hear that and read that quote,
I also had the same response. We do read shocking
things online all the time. They don't always turn out
to be true. Yeah, but in this case, this is
a real thing. This actually happened.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, it's killed is something that would need to be
born out in courts, but certainly in the sense that
there was a man in France who died live on
a live stream, that is true. And as you said,
we see things online all the time, we investigate them.
They don't necessarily come to anything, but this came to something.
In the replies to this post, I found a thread
of videos involving a man who went by the username
(02:44):
Jean Pormanov. In the videos, he's attacked over and over
again by two other men. There are also many videos
of them laughing at him, making fun of him, humiliating him.
They're very upsetting. I should say they're all in French,
but they're definitely upset. Even if you don't speak French.
My French is a little bit rusty, but I can
(03:04):
tell you many of the videos that I saw in
this thread, which appeared to have been clipped and reposted
on TikTok as well as I was seeing it on Twitter.
But they're all over the place. They show this man,
Jean Pomanov crying. They have captions telling viewers jp plur,
which means like Jean Pomanov is crying in this clip.
This man's real name is Raphael Gravin. That's how we'll
(03:27):
be referring to him for the rest of the episode.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So this is a man who died.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yes, there's also a clip that's been shared of the
men who streamed on this platform kick with him discovering
that he has died, that was being shared in censored
and uncensored forms online. Gravin is wrapped in a douna
and one of the men throws a plastic bottle at
him to try to wake him up, at which point
(03:53):
they discover that he has died.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
What do we know about the days leading up to
this man's death? Is there footage before those final moments
that helps us kind of piece together what's happened.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
There's a lot of footage, and that is because this
group that he was part of had been filming NonStop
for nearly three hundred hours, which works out to be
just over twelve days, So they had been living and
including short bouts of sleep, but not extended periods of
sleep this entire time.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
So a twelve day essentially NonStop live stream.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes featuring Graven Graven, Yeah, featuring this man Raphael Graven,
who goes by this name Jean Pormonov. It's also one
of the names of the streaming channel as Jean Pomanov,
which can be kind of confusing, which is partly why
we'll be referring to him by his actual name.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Okay, so over those twelve days, what was going on
for him? Where was he at? Is he included in
the footage what was happening to him?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So he's there basically the entire time during the stream,
he is physically assaulted and subjected to public humiliation. I
won't get into all the details, but some of this
included the other men in this stream shocking him with electricity,
repeatedly interrupting his sleep, parading him on the street in
(05:14):
a wig holding a sign saying he would provide free
sex acts.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So somewhere in France do we know exactly where?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
In Nice, France, in the town of Nice. It's been
reported that Graven had a pre existing heart condition. At
one point in the live stream, he said he wanted
to go to the hospital. In response, the others on
the stream told him to sit down and shut up.
At another point in the stream, he looked directly at
the camera and said he wanted to stop. They obviously
didn't stop. France's Tech minister, so Minister for Technology has
(05:46):
said as many as twenty thousand people watched this live
stream at some point over the twelve days it was
going on.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Lucy The biggest question that keeps coming up for me,
and I'm sure a lot of listeners right now, is
just this feeling of how could this happen? How could
this go on for so long? For such a long time?
Were there any commenters, anyone watching the stream who expressed
their kind of concern or disappointment with what was going on?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I also have the same questions, and my kind
of search for answers after seeing this led me to
an investigation actually that was published in December, so eight
nine months ago from a French outlet called Media Parts.
So they had investigated this group of streamers, which included Gravin.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Did they find anything out about the identities of the
other guys involved?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, we know what their pseudonyms are. So there's four
men involved in the majority of videos released by this
streaming collective. So there's under their pseudonyms there's Naruto, which
is like an anime character, but this guy took that name,
someone called Safine, someone called Kudu, and Jean Pormanov or JP.
(07:03):
That's Gravin. As I've said, of the four, Kudu and
Gravin were the targets of violence, and Naruto and Safine
were the perpetrators. Okay, that was kind of the set dynamic,
and there were other men. It seemed to my eyes
to only be men coming in and out of the videos,
But those are the main four, all right. Their videos
(07:25):
were often titled using slurs against people with disability. Media
Parts said Kudu is disabled and is under a guardianship,
while Gravin was a former soldier. The investigation found Naruto
and Safine would make fun of Kudu and Gravin's mental capacity,
and as I've said, their videos involved a seemingly unlimited
(07:47):
amount of physical violence, humiliation, and psychological torment.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I'm still trying to understand one aspect of this. There's
these kind of four men appear recurrently on this channel,
on these live streams two who are the kind of
physical victims of torment? Were they being held captive? Do
we know why they kind of continued to appear in
(08:15):
these videos?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, this was my question too, because why would you
keep coming back if you're being physically assaulted on camera
for thousands of people to see. It's a very complicated situation.
So in a video that I saw through Media Parts investigation,
Naruto and again I'm sorry I don't like it's his
actual name has not been released. That's a pseudonym. He
(08:37):
speaks to this. He's on stream with the other three
guys in frame. He says, Kudo and Raphael Gravin are
free to leave whenever they want. It's obviously more complicated
than that. There's another video shared by media Part where
Gravin is doing a lie detector test. He's asked if
he would leave if he could. He says yes, and
then it's like verified, that's true, he's not lying. And
(08:59):
then he's asked if he stays because of the money,
and then he says yes, and then again tick Like,
I mean, this is not scientific. These guys are operating
out of an apartment in Nice. They're not doing like
a proper yeah polygraph test. But that's he seems to
be telling the truth that he can leave, but he
chooses to stay because he's getting paid to do this.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Okay, tell me about the money element then.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, So all of these people on this channel benefited
financially from it because their viewers can send the money directly.
Although I will say there's one kind of complication, which
is that Kudu is under a specific kind of guardianship,
which Naruto at one point in one of these videos
says that it means there are difficulties paying him. But
(09:45):
then I mean, for me, that raises questions.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
About like where are the guardians?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Where are the guardians? I mean, these are adult men,
but this guy has been designated by the government as
someone who needs a guardianship.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And there's still so much we don't know about the
circumstance of the two victims of the physical violence. Yeah,
you know, in terms of whatever their capacity was to
consent to this participation.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
And can you even consent to be physically assaulted? That's
kind of a legal question. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So I want to, now, Lucy, just understand more about
this platform Kick. We know it's some kind of a
live streaming service, there's some kind of monetization capacity for users.
But what is this platform? Where did it come from?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I think the best way to explain Kick is to
talk about its rival Twitch. So Twitch is kind of
the name brand streaming platform online that you've probably heard of,
but if you haven't heard of it, it's a platform
primarily used to stream video games, Like so you would
stream yourself playing a video game to an audience. They
could see your screen, and then they can also see
(10:46):
you in the corner of the typically in the corner
of the screen, but I mean it's used for lots
of things. That's the main purpose. And fellow users can
comment on streams as they're happening, so there'll be like
a running chat log along the side of the video. Yeah,
that's true for both Twitch and Kick. Twitch did it first.
On Twitch, you can give the streamers you watch money,
(11:07):
for example, through a paid subscription. So Twitch is quite regulated.
It's not afraid to boot off popular users if they
say offensive things. And there are games that you're not
allowed to stream yourself playing. Okay, So in terms of Kick,
many of these things are the same. It's a streaming
platform primarily used for video games, and you can pay
(11:28):
people that you watch, like you can say, I want
to subscribe to your channel. Here is five bucks a month,
and then that adds up and you get a lot
of money. If we compare the platform's content guidelines, that's
where the differences are, right. So from Twitch talking about
their violence policy, Twitch says, quote violence on Twitch is
taken seriously and it's considered a zero tolerance violation. All
(11:50):
accounts associated with such activities will be indefinitely suspended. Then,
on Kick we have quote, while violence may be contextual
and there can be very degrees of impact, we do
not permit content that depicts or incites abhorrent violence, including
significant harm, suffering or death.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Okay, So Twitch there I'm picking up from its guidelines
has a more zero tolerance approach to violence, whereas the
language of Kicks guidelines is more about context kind of
seemingly that there might be some violence which is acceptable.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And I think that's kind of the gray area that
the Jean Palmanov Collective was operating in, which is they're saying,
as long as it's not significant harm or suffering, then
we can continue doing this.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Okay, you mentioned that some of the videos were titled
using slurs against disabled people. Yes, there would be lots
of social media platforms that would immediately disqualify you from
being on what's kicks hate speech policy?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, well I'll explain that, but then I'll also say
that the slurs were not ones that I had ever
heard of.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Okay, They're in.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
French and according to media part the Jean one of
collective is the first French channel on Kick. So something
that's struck me is possibly Kicks moderators didn't know what
these words mean. I had to do quite a bit
of research to figure out. So they were in Media
Parts investigation and they were like, French people know what
this means. And I was like, well, I'm not French,
(13:17):
so I don't know and I have to look it up.
Got it. So with that in mind, Twitch's guidelines say
you must not quote use hateful slurs, either undirected or
directed towards another individual. Kicks says quote context is crucial
in evaluating hate speech. Words that may be acceptable in
some situations can take on an entirely different meaning depending
(13:39):
on the full context. Yeah, and they say, our aim
is to take a considered approach to find balance between
supporting free expression while ensuring we maintain a safe space
for everyone.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I mean, we have to take that at face value,
I suppose, But in the kind of free speech slash
hate speech era of miss and disinformation that we're in,
there's probably a lot of red flags for a few
people in that guideline on hate speech from Kick.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yes, and I'll also say that Twitch's guidelines have a
number of very specific examples of what isn't isn't okay?
And kicks guidelines don't Okay?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
How did kick come to be? Where? Where has it
come from? I had not heard of it until probably
the last few months.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah. So kick was launched in late twenty twenty two,
which might explain why you haven't heard of it? Who
was started by two men? One of them is twenty
nine year old Australian billionaire Edward Craven.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay, so a Aussie?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yes, a co founder of this? Yeah. Craven made his
money on an online crypto gambling platform called Steak dot com.
And that's different to the Australian share trading business Steak,
but they're spelled the same way stak e that's right,
got it. Steak dot com, the gambling platform is actually
(14:58):
not legal in Australia and it's not accessible to Australians
because online casinos aren't legal here.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Okay. So co founded by an Aussie but not actually
available here in Australia.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah. If you go to their website from Australia, it'll
say sorry, you can't access it, okay. Steak dot com
has sponsored Premier League and F one teams and it
has a partnership with the rapper Drake. So you might
remember earlier this year when Drake was in Australia there
was a video of him throwing a shoe at a
drone yep, that was filming through his hotel window. Yep.
(15:31):
It's never been explicitly stated, but it's pretty clear that
that was actually an ad for Steak.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Okay, So, Steak, the gambling platform co founded by an
Aussie billionaire, has this pretty significant profile in other parts
of the world. And Steak was founded by the same
guy who founded Kick, the streaming platform. That's right, Okay,
got it. Let's go back to this live streaming death though.
Has Kick responded?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah? So Kick responded on their French language Twitter or
x account. They said they were very sorry that they
sent their condolences to the family. They said that the
other streamers had been banned, so the other people working
with gravin and it said it would work with authorities.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
What about legal ramifications. Are we expecting any criminal action
or proceedings kind of both against the streamers involved but
also the platform, because I guess it will be interesting
to hear what they have to say about the twelve
days leading up to this death or even the two
years of violence that were there kind of in plain sight.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So pretty quickly, France's AI and Tech minister, her name's
Clara Schapaz. She sent out a statement saying Gravin's death
and quote the violence he endured was an absolute horror.
She said police were investigating and that she had referred
the case to France's communication and regulator. Media Part has
since responded by saying, so Media Part I should say,
(17:00):
was the French outlet that investigated all of this months ago.
It responded by saying it told her about what was
happening before it published its investigation in December. It showed
screenshots of emails and phone calls to her office that
were never answered, and then at a press conference it
asked her about it directly. She said France's media regulator
(17:22):
had opened an investigation three days after Media Part published
its allegations in December. But that's not necessarily clear to
me if that's the investigation she was talking about in
her statements.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Okay, but either way, we know that a senior minister
in the French government has been aware of the abuse
on this platform.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
For some time for some time, or has at least
been notified okay. It's also been reported in French media
that Graven and the others on the stream were questioned
by police earlier this year after media parts investigation. Graven
is reported to have told police that he was to
leave whenever he wanted and was staging the assaults to
(18:04):
make money. According to the BBC, and autopsy has so
far found Gravin's death was quote not due to trauma,
so that would be like physical okay, trauma. But there'll
be a lot more coming in the ensuing days and weeks.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Wow, Lucy, a really distressing but fascinating story, another kind
of chapter in the world of social media and streaming
and all the ethical concerns that can come out of
this kind of space. Yeah, thank you for taking us
through that. Thanks Sam, and thank you for listening to
today's episode. We'll be back a little later with the
(18:38):
evening news headlines, but until then, take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda
bunge Lung Chalcotin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz
acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of
the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to
the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Just a heads up before we get into it. Today's
episode contains distressing themes, including discussions of extreme violence. Already
and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,
the twenty fifth of August.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Last week, the death of a Frenchman was live streamed
on a platform co founded by Australia's youngest billionaire called Kick.
Over two years, thousands of viewers watched the man who
died in his sleep being physically assaulted in real time
by several other people. In today's episode, we'll explain what
you should know about the man who died, the streaming
(00:50):
platform that saw the last two years of his life unfold,
and the Australian billionaire who founded it. Before we get
into today's episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Lucy.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
This is an incredibly distressing case. Many aspects of it
defy belief. What actually happened and how did you find
out about this?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So last week I was scrolling through my social media.
It was before bed, which I know I'm not supposed
to do, but I was doing it anyway, and a
post appeared on my feed that really stopped me in
my tracks. So it was from an account that I
don't follow, but it was one of those things where
the algorithm will give you things to say, like this
is popping off, or maybe this seems like something you're
(01:37):
interested in. I think it came across my path because
it had hundreds of thousands of likes. Yep. This post
is from a person called Sean to Black. That's their username.
They're a twitch streamer. More about that later if you
don't know what a twitch streamer is. But here's what
the post said. Quote French kickstreamers killed a guy live
(01:58):
after abusing him physically and mentally for months. Did I
read that right? That's the whole quote.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah. And when I hear that and read that quote,
I also had the same response. We do read shocking
things online all the time. They don't always turn out
to be true. Yeah, but in this case, this is
a real thing. This actually happened.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, it's killed is something that would need to be
born out in courts, but certainly in the sense that
there was a man in France who died live on
a live stream, that is true. And as you said,
we see things online all the time, we investigate them.
They don't necessarily come to anything, but this came to something.
In the replies to this post, I found a thread
of videos involving a man who went by the username
(02:44):
Jean Pormanov. In the videos, he's attacked over and over
again by two other men. There are also many videos
of them laughing at him, making fun of him, humiliating him.
They're very upsetting. I should say they're all in French,
but they're definitely upset. Even if you don't speak French.
My French is a little bit rusty, but I can
(03:04):
tell you many of the videos that I saw in
this thread, which appeared to have been clipped and reposted
on TikTok as well as I was seeing it on Twitter.
But they're all over the place. They show this man,
Jean Pomanov crying. They have captions telling viewers jp plur,
which means like Jean Pomanov is crying in this clip.
This man's real name is Raphael Gravin. That's how we'll
(03:27):
be referring to him for the rest of the episode.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So this is a man who died.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yes, there's also a clip that's been shared of the
men who streamed on this platform kick with him discovering
that he has died, that was being shared in censored
and uncensored forms online. Gravin is wrapped in a douna
and one of the men throws a plastic bottle at
him to try to wake him up, at which point
(03:53):
they discover that he has died.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
What do we know about the days leading up to
this man's death? Is there footage before those final moments
that helps us kind of piece together what's happened.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
There's a lot of footage, and that is because this
group that he was part of had been filming NonStop
for nearly three hundred hours, which works out to be
just over twelve days, So they had been living and
including short bouts of sleep, but not extended periods of
sleep this entire time.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
So a twelve day essentially NonStop live stream.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes featuring Graven Graven, Yeah, featuring this man Raphael Graven,
who goes by this name Jean Pormonov. It's also one
of the names of the streaming channel as Jean Pomanov,
which can be kind of confusing, which is partly why
we'll be referring to him by his actual name.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Okay, so over those twelve days, what was going on
for him? Where was he at? Is he included in
the footage what was happening to him?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So he's there basically the entire time during the stream,
he is physically assaulted and subjected to public humiliation. I
won't get into all the details, but some of this
included the other men in this stream shocking him with electricity,
repeatedly interrupting his sleep, parading him on the street in
(05:14):
a wig holding a sign saying he would provide free
sex acts.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So somewhere in France do we know exactly where?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
In Nice, France, in the town of Nice. It's been
reported that Graven had a pre existing heart condition. At
one point in the live stream, he said he wanted
to go to the hospital. In response, the others on
the stream told him to sit down and shut up.
At another point in the stream, he looked directly at
the camera and said he wanted to stop. They obviously
didn't stop. France's Tech minister, so Minister for Technology has
(05:46):
said as many as twenty thousand people watched this live
stream at some point over the twelve days it was
going on.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Lucy The biggest question that keeps coming up for me,
and I'm sure a lot of listeners right now, is
just this feeling of how could this happen? How could
this go on for so long? For such a long time?
Were there any commenters, anyone watching the stream who expressed
their kind of concern or disappointment with what was going on?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So I also have the same questions, and my kind
of search for answers after seeing this led me to
an investigation actually that was published in December, so eight
nine months ago from a French outlet called Media Parts.
So they had investigated this group of streamers, which included Gravin.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Did they find anything out about the identities of the
other guys involved?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, we know what their pseudonyms are. So there's four
men involved in the majority of videos released by this
streaming collective. So there's under their pseudonyms there's Naruto, which
is like an anime character, but this guy took that name,
someone called Safine, someone called Kudu, and Jean Pormanov or JP.
(07:03):
That's Gravin. As I've said, of the four, Kudu and
Gravin were the targets of violence, and Naruto and Safine
were the perpetrators. Okay, that was kind of the set dynamic,
and there were other men. It seemed to my eyes
to only be men coming in and out of the videos,
But those are the main four, all right. Their videos
(07:25):
were often titled using slurs against people with disability. Media
Parts said Kudu is disabled and is under a guardianship,
while Gravin was a former soldier. The investigation found Naruto
and Safine would make fun of Kudu and Gravin's mental capacity,
and as I've said, their videos involved a seemingly unlimited
(07:47):
amount of physical violence, humiliation, and psychological torment.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I'm still trying to understand one aspect of this. There's
these kind of four men appear recurrently on this channel,
on these live streams two who are the kind of
physical victims of torment? Were they being held captive? Do
we know why they kind of continued to appear in
(08:15):
these videos?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, this was my question too, because why would you
keep coming back if you're being physically assaulted on camera
for thousands of people to see. It's a very complicated situation.
So in a video that I saw through Media Parts investigation,
Naruto and again I'm sorry I don't like it's his
actual name has not been released. That's a pseudonym. He
(08:37):
speaks to this. He's on stream with the other three
guys in frame. He says, Kudo and Raphael Gravin are
free to leave whenever they want. It's obviously more complicated
than that. There's another video shared by media Part where
Gravin is doing a lie detector test. He's asked if
he would leave if he could. He says yes, and
then it's like verified, that's true, he's not lying. And
(08:59):
then he's asked if he stays because of the money,
and then he says yes, and then again tick Like,
I mean, this is not scientific. These guys are operating
out of an apartment in Nice. They're not doing like
a proper yeah polygraph test. But that's he seems to
be telling the truth that he can leave, but he
chooses to stay because he's getting paid to do this.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Okay, tell me about the money element then.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, So all of these people on this channel benefited
financially from it because their viewers can send the money directly.
Although I will say there's one kind of complication, which
is that Kudu is under a specific kind of guardianship,
which Naruto at one point in one of these videos
says that it means there are difficulties paying him. But
(09:45):
then I mean, for me, that raises questions.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
About like where are the guardians?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Where are the guardians? I mean, these are adult men,
but this guy has been designated by the government as
someone who needs a guardianship.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And there's still so much we don't know about the
circumstance of the two victims of the physical violence. Yeah,
you know, in terms of whatever their capacity was to
consent to this participation.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
And can you even consent to be physically assaulted? That's
kind of a legal question. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So I want to, now, Lucy, just understand more about
this platform Kick. We know it's some kind of a
live streaming service, there's some kind of monetization capacity for users.
But what is this platform? Where did it come from?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I think the best way to explain Kick is to
talk about its rival Twitch. So Twitch is kind of
the name brand streaming platform online that you've probably heard of,
but if you haven't heard of it, it's a platform
primarily used to stream video games, Like so you would
stream yourself playing a video game to an audience. They
could see your screen, and then they can also see
(10:46):
you in the corner of the typically in the corner
of the screen, but I mean it's used for lots
of things. That's the main purpose. And fellow users can
comment on streams as they're happening, so there'll be like
a running chat log along the side of the video. Yeah,
that's true for both Twitch and Kick. Twitch did it first.
On Twitch, you can give the streamers you watch money,
(11:07):
for example, through a paid subscription. So Twitch is quite regulated.
It's not afraid to boot off popular users if they
say offensive things. And there are games that you're not
allowed to stream yourself playing. Okay, So in terms of Kick,
many of these things are the same. It's a streaming
platform primarily used for video games, and you can pay
(11:28):
people that you watch, like you can say, I want
to subscribe to your channel. Here is five bucks a month,
and then that adds up and you get a lot
of money. If we compare the platform's content guidelines, that's
where the differences are, right. So from Twitch talking about
their violence policy, Twitch says, quote violence on Twitch is
taken seriously and it's considered a zero tolerance violation. All
(11:50):
accounts associated with such activities will be indefinitely suspended. Then,
on Kick we have quote, while violence may be contextual
and there can be very degrees of impact, we do
not permit content that depicts or incites abhorrent violence, including
significant harm, suffering or death.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Okay, So Twitch there I'm picking up from its guidelines
has a more zero tolerance approach to violence, whereas the
language of Kicks guidelines is more about context kind of
seemingly that there might be some violence which is acceptable.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And I think that's kind of the gray area that
the Jean Palmanov Collective was operating in, which is they're saying,
as long as it's not significant harm or suffering, then
we can continue doing this.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Okay, you mentioned that some of the videos were titled
using slurs against disabled people. Yes, there would be lots
of social media platforms that would immediately disqualify you from
being on what's kicks hate speech policy?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, well I'll explain that, but then I'll also say
that the slurs were not ones that I had ever
heard of.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Okay, They're in.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
French and according to media part the Jean one of
collective is the first French channel on Kick. So something
that's struck me is possibly Kicks moderators didn't know what
these words mean. I had to do quite a bit
of research to figure out. So they were in Media
Parts investigation and they were like, French people know what
this means. And I was like, well, I'm not French,
(13:17):
so I don't know and I have to look it up.
Got it. So with that in mind, Twitch's guidelines say
you must not quote use hateful slurs, either undirected or
directed towards another individual. Kicks says quote context is crucial
in evaluating hate speech. Words that may be acceptable in
some situations can take on an entirely different meaning depending
(13:39):
on the full context. Yeah, and they say, our aim
is to take a considered approach to find balance between
supporting free expression while ensuring we maintain a safe space
for everyone.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I mean, we have to take that at face value,
I suppose, But in the kind of free speech slash
hate speech era of miss and disinformation that we're in,
there's probably a lot of red flags for a few
people in that guideline on hate speech from Kick.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yes, and I'll also say that Twitch's guidelines have a
number of very specific examples of what isn't isn't okay?
And kicks guidelines don't Okay?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
How did kick come to be? Where? Where has it
come from? I had not heard of it until probably
the last few months.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah. So kick was launched in late twenty twenty two,
which might explain why you haven't heard of it? Who
was started by two men? One of them is twenty
nine year old Australian billionaire Edward Craven.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay, so a Aussie?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yes, a co founder of this? Yeah. Craven made his
money on an online crypto gambling platform called Steak dot com.
And that's different to the Australian share trading business Steak,
but they're spelled the same way stak e that's right,
got it. Steak dot com, the gambling platform is actually
(14:58):
not legal in Australia and it's not accessible to Australians
because online casinos aren't legal here.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Okay. So co founded by an Aussie but not actually
available here in Australia.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah. If you go to their website from Australia, it'll
say sorry, you can't access it, okay. Steak dot com
has sponsored Premier League and F one teams and it
has a partnership with the rapper Drake. So you might
remember earlier this year when Drake was in Australia there
was a video of him throwing a shoe at a
drone yep, that was filming through his hotel window. Yep.
(15:31):
It's never been explicitly stated, but it's pretty clear that
that was actually an ad for Steak.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Okay, So, Steak, the gambling platform co founded by an
Aussie billionaire, has this pretty significant profile in other parts
of the world. And Steak was founded by the same
guy who founded Kick, the streaming platform. That's right, Okay,
got it. Let's go back to this live streaming death though.
Has Kick responded?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah? So Kick responded on their French language Twitter or
x account. They said they were very sorry that they
sent their condolences to the family. They said that the
other streamers had been banned, so the other people working
with gravin and it said it would work with authorities.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
What about legal ramifications. Are we expecting any criminal action
or proceedings kind of both against the streamers involved but
also the platform, because I guess it will be interesting
to hear what they have to say about the twelve
days leading up to this death or even the two
years of violence that were there kind of in plain sight.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So pretty quickly, France's AI and Tech minister, her name's
Clara Schapaz. She sent out a statement saying Gravin's death
and quote the violence he endured was an absolute horror.
She said police were investigating and that she had referred
the case to France's communication and regulator. Media Part has
since responded by saying, so Media Part I should say,
(17:00):
was the French outlet that investigated all of this months ago.
It responded by saying it told her about what was
happening before it published its investigation in December. It showed
screenshots of emails and phone calls to her office that
were never answered, and then at a press conference it
asked her about it directly. She said France's media regulator
(17:22):
had opened an investigation three days after Media Part published
its allegations in December. But that's not necessarily clear to
me if that's the investigation she was talking about in
her statements.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Okay, but either way, we know that a senior minister
in the French government has been aware of the abuse
on this platform.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
For some time for some time, or has at least
been notified okay. It's also been reported in French media
that Graven and the others on the stream were questioned
by police earlier this year after media parts investigation. Graven
is reported to have told police that he was to
leave whenever he wanted and was staging the assaults to
(18:04):
make money. According to the BBC, and autopsy has so
far found Gravin's death was quote not due to trauma,
so that would be like physical okay, trauma. But there'll
be a lot more coming in the ensuing days and weeks.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Wow, Lucy, a really distressing but fascinating story, another kind
of chapter in the world of social media and streaming
and all the ethical concerns that can come out of
this kind of space. Yeah, thank you for taking us
through that. Thanks Sam, and thank you for listening to
today's episode. We'll be back a little later with the
(18:38):
evening news headlines, but until then, take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda
bunge Lung Chalcotin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz
acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of
the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to
the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
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