August 12, 2025 • 20 mins
High-level officials from more than 170 countries are in Switzerland right now to finalise the first legally binding treaty on plastics. Negotiations began in 2022, when the United Nations Environment Assembly – the world's highest decision-making body on the environment – agreed on the need to address the environmental and health impacts of plastic pollution and waste.
Since then, five negotiation sessions have failed to reach a consensus. This time, protesters outside the UN are calling for “courage, not compromise”. But with a record number of fossil fuel lobbyists attending the latest round of talks in Geneva, there are concerns that global efforts could stall further.
Dr Nicholas Chartres is a senior research fellow with the University of Sydney’s faculty of medicine and health. As a leading authority on the health impacts of plastic pollution and microplastics, he is part of a group of experts who’ve made several recommendations for the UN Plastics Treaty.
Nick joins us for today’s deep dive to unpack everything you need to know about these negotiations and the current state of play.
Hosts: Emma Gillespie and Billi FitzSimons
Guest: Dr Nicholas Chartres, Senior Research Fellow, The University of Sydney
Producer: Orla Maher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already and this is this is the daily Art, This
is the Daly ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning, and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Wednesday,
the thirteenth of August.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy Fitzsimon's.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
High level officials from more than one hundred and seventy
countries are in Switzerland right now to finalize the first
legally binding treaty on plastics. Negotiations began in twenty twenty
two when the United Nations Environment Assembly that's the world's
highest decision making body on the environment, agreed on the
need to address the environmental and health impacts of plastic
(00:45):
pollution and waste.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Since then, five negotiation sessions have failed to reach a consensus.
This time, protesters outside the UN are calling for courage,
not compromise, But with a record number of fossil fuel
lobbyists attending the latest of talks in Geneva, there are
concerns that global efforts could stall further. Doctor Nicholas Charters
is a senior Research fellow with the University of Sydney's
(01:09):
Faculty of Medicine and Health. As a leading authority on
the health impacts of plastic pollution and microplastics. He's part
of a group of experts who have made several recommendations
for the un Plastics Treaty.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
The amount that's already in the environment, this is the
really scary bit. We can't get it out. It's in everything,
It's in every type of soil sentiment. You know. The
particles are so small in the ocean, they're already in
our body, and so that for me is probably the
most concerning piece.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Nick joins us for today's deep dive to unpack everything
you need to know about these negotiations and the current
state of play. Doctor Charters, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Thanks Harymy.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
For people who are listening who might not have heard
about this treaty at all, firstly, can you explain to
us what it actually is and why it's being discussed
right now?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Sure? So, Back in twenty twenty two, the United Nation
Member States adopted a resolution to negotiate the first international
legal binding treaty to end plastic pollution. So this has
been ongoing for the last three years. There has been
a series of meetings to develop the language that we're
going to the treaties. Though, what it will actually do
(02:20):
and what the member states will have to commit to essentially,
And one of the main sticking points or challenges with
this is that the majority of member states are wanting
to cap plastic production and they also want to end
the use of non toxic chemicals in the production of plastics.
Not many people realize that plastics are made from oil
(02:43):
and gas, but they also have thousands of additive chemicals
in them to essentially give them the characteristics the plastics have.
And obviously there's lots of different types of plastics. And
then there's a small coalition of fossil fuel producing, a
petrochemical producing member states that are pushing back against this
idea of capping plastic production and also cap in the
(03:05):
use of these chemicals. And that's essentially because they want
to see a focus on recycling and waste management so
that they can continue to essentially produce and make plastic
because it's such a huge revenue stream for them.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I want to focus in a little bit on the
problems that the treaty is trying to solve. You've touched
on there, but how urgent is a treaty like this
and can you tell us more about those problems?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean absolutely. I think most people would just
know from their own experience in their lived environment that
plastic's becoming more and more of an issue. And I
think in Australia we have always thought we live in
such a pristine, an amazing environment, and we certainly still do.
But I mean you only need to take a walk
on a beach, or look at the streets, or just
(03:52):
look at your own house and look at how any
plastic products are now in that environment. They're abiquitous and
there everywhere, and these are the ones that we can see.
So I'm talking about like the larger sized pieces of
plastic just to give you an understanding of how big
the problem is. We make about four hundred and ninety
million metric tons of plastic a year, and so of like,
well what does that look like. Well, it's doubled since
(04:13):
two thousand and eight. And if you think it looks
bad now, only if you think the beaches in the
water from your own experience looks polluted. It's going to
triple in the next thirty years. So we're in a
triple plastic production in the next thirty years. Based on
the projections that have been made on how the oil
and gas industry are going to essentially use plastics as
an new revenue stree. So as the world starts to
(04:34):
transition away from energy and transport for a primary source
of oil and gas, about fifty percent of oil and
gas will be used by twenty sixty for making plastics.
So it's going to become an even bigger shuit of
what we're currently experiencing. What I mentioned before about the
plastics that you can see, I mean, that's one thing,
and so we think about plastics often, and we've drown
up thinking about plastics as these larger pieces of over
(04:56):
material that we can pick up, put in and recycling
bin and essentially just happens and we get new products
made from them. And that's what we've been told. It's
a story, a narrative. It's shaped by the fossil fuel
industry back in the seventies and eighties that we can
recycle our way out of this problem. About eight nine
percent globally. Different averages, different estimates have been put forward,
(05:16):
but that's the ballpark number for how much plastic we recycle,
eight to nine percent globally each year. And there's about
one percent of plastic that gets recycled twice in its lifetime.
So the idea that we can actually recycle plastic is
a fallacy, and there's a lot of health issues with
that concept as well. So when we're thinking about plastic
(05:36):
that we can see, obviously it's a huge issue based
on what we really know, but another really concerned anything
of these tiny particles that we can't see, not its microplastics.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I think a lot of people would be really surprised
to hear the scale of plastics production that it's doubled
since two thousand and eight, because you know, socially, culturally,
we've become so much more aware of plastics use. I'd
say in our data day lives, we're more conscious about
the plastic we use. Where is all of that manufacturing
coming from and what's it going towards?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, it's a good question. So over fifty percent is
single year still, so there's single use products are still made,
including things like food packaging. And then there's this one
of the second well I think it's the third largest
is which most people often don't make the association is textiles.
So anyone out there that wears athleisure, where anyone that's
(06:28):
wearing any type of spandex material you're pretty much wearing
oil and gas. So polyester materials, polyethylene, they're essentially the
materials are made from an oil and gas backbone. We
still have a huge line in things like food manufacturing.
This is a huge issue as well. So if you
think about our food systems now, we're highly dependent on
(06:50):
food packaging and obviously that's made from plastic. If you
think about obviously coat bottles or soft drink bottles, you
think about the level of consumption, there's still huge sources
contributing to this. And one of the again the keys is,
like I said, is that we often will purchase products
that may have the recycling so we call them the
chasing arrow symbols of the Three Arrows, and people look
(07:12):
at it and it's a very clever bit of marketing.
So people look at them and they go, oh, water relief,
it's got that recycling logo on, and I can drink
this without in the environment, and we're drinking and pop
it in that bin over there and know that it's
going to go back and be reused. And again that's
a fallacy and one of the things people need to
become aware of is that we can't, unfortunately, protect ourselves
and the environment from the impacts of plastic through recycling,
(07:36):
and that's because of the chemicals in them, and it's
also because of the tiny fragments that break down from
them over time. And we're learning more and more, but
those signed fragments are getting into us and they bioaccumulating,
So basically we can't get released little particles and we're
getting more and more into our bodies.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I want to talk a little more about the specifics
of the treaty in a second, but before we get there,
can you speak to me about the health impacts of
these plastics, particularly microplastics. You know, as you mentioned, we
do hear a lot about plastics polluting the oceans. We
have that, you know, the pollution that we can see
and the understanding of its place in the environment. But
(08:12):
what health risks does all of this pose to the
average person?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, So, thinking about plastic kicks of two main constituents,
which is the first one is the backbone. The polyme
backbone is made from oil and gas, so essentially plastic
is petrol. So not many people realize that. So the
main part of the plastic material that you're holding a
single use, single use plastics ninety act centum are made
(08:38):
from oil and gas, but any type of plastic will
have that type of petrol backbone essentially. And then there
are all these additional additives I mentioned before included into
the plastic to give it its characteristic depending on what
it's trying to do. So things like PFAS, which has
been in the media a lot lately, forever chemicals, ye,
forever chemicals exactly. But another one which most people don't
(08:59):
really know about, something called a phthalate, which is basically
these classic chemicals that we know are endocrime disrupting chemicals,
and what that means is they essentially alter our body's
natural hormone system. So these chemicals are getting included into
that oil and gas backbone that I mentioned before, with
very little transparency on the reporting as well. So when
(09:20):
these plastics are made, we often don't know what's in
the plastic. But what we're now learning, which is probably
the most concerning component of all this, is that the
plastic particles are breaking down to these tiny fragments, to
what we call a microplastic, which is essentially smaller than
half a centimeter, but they can go right down to
the size of something like a human blood cell or
smaller than your human hair, so you wouldn't actually see
(09:41):
these particles in the environment. So they're essentially every wedding,
and so a lot of research in the last two
to three years has come out looking at both how
they accumulate in our bodies so they get in and
they don't leave. But we've just done a review last
year looking at what are the health effects of these
microplastic particles. It's been tricky to study, so you know
a lot of authoritative bodies around the world have to
(10:02):
regulate chemicals using animal studies because that's all we have.
And what we found across large number of animal studies
were these really consistent effects in the respiratory, digestive and
also reproductive system. So we saw the impact of fertility.
We also saw that increase these biological markers in our body,
things like chronic inflammation in both the lung and also
(10:25):
in the column. So we saw these suspected links to
these cancers. So we're starting to see more and more
evidence coming out to show that yeah, once these things
around our body, it makes sense they're oil and gas
and these chemicals I mentioned before they're going to lead
to a raft at health effects, which is the thing
that is probably most concerning.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
When it comes to the treaty. I suppose there are
so many facets that you have mentioned as concern areas,
from transparency, through production to marketing. What are some of
the big sticking points or the disagreements between countries in
these negotiations, or between even kind trees versus health experts.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Sure, I mean, if that's interesting point about countries birth
health experts. At the moment, I think in Geneva, there's
three hundred and thirty five last estimates industry lobbyists fossil
fuel and chemical companies, and I think they're out numbering
academics at five to one, or scientists at five to one,
and you know, indigenous communities at ten to one. So yeah,
(11:22):
these negotiations are flooded by the invested interests of these
corporations that want to produce plastics. And the main sticking
point very simply is that a number of fossil fuel
producing countries is coalition of countries which now includes the
United States. They do not want to cap plastics production
very simply. You know, they don't want to stop extracting
(11:43):
oil and gas out of the ground. But if we
are going to be using it for energy and transport,
the world starts transitioning regards to what the United States
is currently doing, they need a new revenue stroom, and
plastics is the obvious one because they can argue that
we are relying on them in society and we have
become but it doesn't mean they're essential. So the very
simple takeaway at the moment is that they don't want
(12:03):
to cap plastic, and over one hundred and ten nations
at the moment do and that's essentially where the treaties
still lie. Can we get agreement on.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
This if the influence of these manufacturers and lobbyists is
so intense, Is there a middle ground? Is there a
way to switch at scale for some change?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I mean this is the tricky part. So one
of the I don't want to say critical flaws or flaws,
but the actual rules of procedure and how the treaty
is going to be finalized. There's been one of the
main issues with it. Essentially, these countries are saying that
it needs to be a consensus so everyone has the
route and the draft rules of procedure actually allow for
(12:42):
what they call a qualified majority voting when consensus fails. So,
in other words, if you can't get consensus, can we
get a majority of votes to essentially move the treaty
language forward and start finalizing something that is legally binding.
Because at the moment this is the fifth meeting, it
was actually meant to be the final meaning back in
November last year, and again language could not be finalized
(13:03):
because there was a consensus. So what may happen here
is that there is you know, this country is just
won't agree to consensus and they are also with their
recognize this idea of a qualified majority voting if it
does take place. So what may need to happen is
the countries that are say, look, we want to we
want to come up with a global plan on how
(13:24):
we redgise plastics. Is it they essentially develop it, and
they're going to have to try to do that, you know,
with those those countries removed from the process, because otherwise
just nothing will take playing some fortunate we are just
going to be in this essentially a whole wind pattern.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
What role is Australia playing in these negotiations? Are we
leading or lagging with the pack? And how does that
take into our own plastics manufacturing here.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, Australia at the
moment is in alignment with the idea that there needs
to be reduction in plastic production. So in Australia is
supporting this idea that we don't want, that we should
be trying to catch to a sustainable level. It's a
little bit vague in terms of I guess you know
what our complete commitment is, and we certainly can still
do a lot more back in Australia immediately as well.
(14:10):
I mean, there's no reason why we don't immediately ban
on essential plastics since you use plastics in Australia. There's
lots we can do that current environment, which is important
and we're not a huge global player. But I mean
the fact that we are supporting a reduction in plastic
I think is important.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
What are some of the key points that you think
belong in a successful treaty? What would be your kind
of priority areas for the most urgent things that if
you could change tomorrow you would enact.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, I mean the obvious one, as we've talked about,
is capping. This keeps me up at night. Because I
don't think people fully understand how much this is going
to impact generations to come, particularly if you have children,
which I do. Even if we start to cap plastics,
and if we move towards reducing the volume, the amount
(15:03):
that's already in the environment, this is the really scary
but we can't get it out. It's in everything, It's
in every type of soil sediment. The particles are so
small in the ocean, they're already in our body, and
so that for me, is probably the most concerning piece.
But we do need to take action, and so capping
is absolutely critical to this, and there's a need to
(15:24):
look immediately at non essential materials. So just very simply
what is not critical for society to function. A critical
piece of material may be something like a medical device,
but even still there may be alternative materials that could
be used. The second thing is chemicals. You mentioned chemicals before.
We already have a list of four thousand knowe toxic
chemicals in plastics is about sixteen thousand that have been identified,
(15:48):
and so we need to bound those immediately being used
because once they're into the plastic, as I mentioned before,
we can't recycle those plastics. If those toxic chemicals are
in there or it's incredibly difficult to do that. So essentially,
once they're put in, we know that they're going to
end up in landfill. And there needs to be global
implementation of databasic chemicals that are identified as toxic, similar
(16:09):
to the stock Own convention where they just get banned,
we can't use them. So that's the second thing when
it's bound these toxic chemicals. A third thing is the
transparency around it. It needs to be reporting. So when
plastics are made, we need to know what's in them.
Currently we have very little idea of how many added
into these plastics. And then finally, how are we going
to pay for all this and implement it? And this
is critical, this is happening. This is an issue, a
(16:31):
key issue with a lot of environmental catastrophes, similar to pafas,
where we have manufacturers and producers of these chemicals and
these environmental contaminants that essentially externalize the costs. So what
do I mean by that is they can make it,
they make it a very cheap price, and then they
sell it. We consume it, but then we pay for
(16:53):
the health implications, both human health and environmental and so
we're burdened with the ongoing impact and costs of these products,
even when we know that they're toxic low we do
now at plastics, So it's critical. It's really critical that
the implementation of a tree, but also just moving forward
globally in terms of how we remediate and how we
reduce the impact or repair the impact of these contaminants
(17:17):
is that we put the burden back on the pluta.
So the fossil full industry is the petrochemical companies and
the plastic companies that are making these need to bear
the costs for the impact that it calls into the environment.
So capping plastic, removing toxic chemicals, increasing transparency on what's
going into them, and making the pluters pay for this
have been the four main things I'd want to see
in this treet you.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
My last question for you, I think for individuals and
as young people much of our audience are young Australians,
it can feel a little bit hopeless or overwhelming when
we consider these ongoing negotiations. You know, a bunch of
faceless suits at a table overseas trying to determine ways
around this. What can we do or can we do
(18:00):
anything to actually make a difference beyond just recycling. As
you've mentioned, that's its own flawed beast. What would your
advice be.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Put it on the ballot. We know that civil action
and engagement around an issue can lead to change because
there are a lot of community action groups out there
at the moment on this, and also consumer action will
lead to a lot of manufacturers changing. People can talk
to their local members. We need to ensure that governments
know that this is something that potentially could lead to
(18:30):
their position in parliament changing. There is an opportunity for
people to get around this as an idea and to
get governments to start responding in a timely way, because
if we wait thirty years and plastic production triples, the
amount of plastic that's going to be in this world
and this environment's going to be near and possible to remove.
The idea is not to scare people. I think it's
important for people to be aware of what's happening. It's
(18:53):
a difficult concept to understand, and we've all been misinformed
about recycling idea that we can take care of it
through that process and we simply can't. But we can
take action, and certainly I think people may informed. It's
more important than you're not having that information to make
your own decisions.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Nick, thank you so much for your time, fascinating and terrifying,
and we will keep an eye on all the developments
out of these negotiations.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Thanks you Ta, such a fascinating chat there. Thank you
so much to doctor Nicholas Charters for that chat, and
to Emma for doing that amazing interview. And thank you
so much for listening to this episode of The Daily Os.
We'll be back this evening with your evening headlines, but
until then, have a great day.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda
Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily Os acknowledges
that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Already and this is this is the daily Art, This
is the Daly ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning, and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Wednesday,
the thirteenth of August.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy Fitzsimon's.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
High level officials from more than one hundred and seventy
countries are in Switzerland right now to finalize the first
legally binding treaty on plastics. Negotiations began in twenty twenty
two when the United Nations Environment Assembly that's the world's
highest decision making body on the environment, agreed on the
need to address the environmental and health impacts of plastic
(00:45):
pollution and waste.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Since then, five negotiation sessions have failed to reach a consensus.
This time, protesters outside the UN are calling for courage,
not compromise, But with a record number of fossil fuel
lobbyists attending the latest of talks in Geneva, there are
concerns that global efforts could stall further. Doctor Nicholas Charters
is a senior Research fellow with the University of Sydney's
(01:09):
Faculty of Medicine and Health. As a leading authority on
the health impacts of plastic pollution and microplastics. He's part
of a group of experts who have made several recommendations
for the un Plastics Treaty.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
The amount that's already in the environment, this is the
really scary bit. We can't get it out. It's in everything,
It's in every type of soil sentiment. You know. The
particles are so small in the ocean, they're already in
our body, and so that for me is probably the
most concerning piece.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Nick joins us for today's deep dive to unpack everything
you need to know about these negotiations and the current
state of play. Doctor Charters, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Thanks Harymy.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
For people who are listening who might not have heard
about this treaty at all, firstly, can you explain to
us what it actually is and why it's being discussed
right now?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Sure? So, Back in twenty twenty two, the United Nation
Member States adopted a resolution to negotiate the first international
legal binding treaty to end plastic pollution. So this has
been ongoing for the last three years. There has been
a series of meetings to develop the language that we're
going to the treaties. Though, what it will actually do
(02:20):
and what the member states will have to commit to essentially,
And one of the main sticking points or challenges with
this is that the majority of member states are wanting
to cap plastic production and they also want to end
the use of non toxic chemicals in the production of plastics.
Not many people realize that plastics are made from oil
(02:43):
and gas, but they also have thousands of additive chemicals
in them to essentially give them the characteristics the plastics have.
And obviously there's lots of different types of plastics. And
then there's a small coalition of fossil fuel producing, a
petrochemical producing member states that are pushing back against this
idea of capping plastic production and also cap in the
(03:05):
use of these chemicals. And that's essentially because they want
to see a focus on recycling and waste management so
that they can continue to essentially produce and make plastic
because it's such a huge revenue stream for them.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I want to focus in a little bit on the
problems that the treaty is trying to solve. You've touched
on there, but how urgent is a treaty like this
and can you tell us more about those problems?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean absolutely. I think most people would just
know from their own experience in their lived environment that
plastic's becoming more and more of an issue. And I
think in Australia we have always thought we live in
such a pristine, an amazing environment, and we certainly still do.
But I mean you only need to take a walk
on a beach, or look at the streets, or just
(03:52):
look at your own house and look at how any
plastic products are now in that environment. They're abiquitous and
there everywhere, and these are the ones that we can see.
So I'm talking about like the larger sized pieces of
plastic just to give you an understanding of how big
the problem is. We make about four hundred and ninety
million metric tons of plastic a year, and so of like,
well what does that look like. Well, it's doubled since
(04:13):
two thousand and eight. And if you think it looks
bad now, only if you think the beaches in the
water from your own experience looks polluted. It's going to
triple in the next thirty years. So we're in a
triple plastic production in the next thirty years. Based on
the projections that have been made on how the oil
and gas industry are going to essentially use plastics as
an new revenue stree. So as the world starts to
(04:34):
transition away from energy and transport for a primary source
of oil and gas, about fifty percent of oil and
gas will be used by twenty sixty for making plastics.
So it's going to become an even bigger shuit of
what we're currently experiencing. What I mentioned before about the
plastics that you can see, I mean, that's one thing,
and so we think about plastics often, and we've drown
up thinking about plastics as these larger pieces of over
(04:56):
material that we can pick up, put in and recycling
bin and essentially just happens and we get new products
made from them. And that's what we've been told. It's
a story, a narrative. It's shaped by the fossil fuel
industry back in the seventies and eighties that we can
recycle our way out of this problem. About eight nine
percent globally. Different averages, different estimates have been put forward,
(05:16):
but that's the ballpark number for how much plastic we recycle,
eight to nine percent globally each year. And there's about
one percent of plastic that gets recycled twice in its lifetime.
So the idea that we can actually recycle plastic is
a fallacy, and there's a lot of health issues with
that concept as well. So when we're thinking about plastic
(05:36):
that we can see, obviously it's a huge issue based
on what we really know, but another really concerned anything
of these tiny particles that we can't see, not its microplastics.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I think a lot of people would be really surprised
to hear the scale of plastics production that it's doubled
since two thousand and eight, because you know, socially, culturally,
we've become so much more aware of plastics use. I'd
say in our data day lives, we're more conscious about
the plastic we use. Where is all of that manufacturing
coming from and what's it going towards?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, it's a good question. So over fifty percent is
single year still, so there's single use products are still made,
including things like food packaging. And then there's this one
of the second well I think it's the third largest
is which most people often don't make the association is textiles.
So anyone out there that wears athleisure, where anyone that's
(06:28):
wearing any type of spandex material you're pretty much wearing
oil and gas. So polyester materials, polyethylene, they're essentially the
materials are made from an oil and gas backbone. We
still have a huge line in things like food manufacturing.
This is a huge issue as well. So if you
think about our food systems now, we're highly dependent on
(06:50):
food packaging and obviously that's made from plastic. If you
think about obviously coat bottles or soft drink bottles, you
think about the level of consumption, there's still huge sources
contributing to this. And one of the again the keys is,
like I said, is that we often will purchase products
that may have the recycling so we call them the
chasing arrow symbols of the Three Arrows, and people look
(07:12):
at it and it's a very clever bit of marketing.
So people look at them and they go, oh, water relief,
it's got that recycling logo on, and I can drink
this without in the environment, and we're drinking and pop
it in that bin over there and know that it's
going to go back and be reused. And again that's
a fallacy and one of the things people need to
become aware of is that we can't, unfortunately, protect ourselves
and the environment from the impacts of plastic through recycling,
(07:36):
and that's because of the chemicals in them, and it's
also because of the tiny fragments that break down from
them over time. And we're learning more and more, but
those signed fragments are getting into us and they bioaccumulating,
So basically we can't get released little particles and we're
getting more and more into our bodies.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I want to talk a little more about the specifics
of the treaty in a second, but before we get there,
can you speak to me about the health impacts of
these plastics, particularly microplastics. You know, as you mentioned, we
do hear a lot about plastics polluting the oceans. We
have that, you know, the pollution that we can see
and the understanding of its place in the environment. But
(08:12):
what health risks does all of this pose to the
average person?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, So, thinking about plastic kicks of two main constituents,
which is the first one is the backbone. The polyme
backbone is made from oil and gas, so essentially plastic
is petrol. So not many people realize that. So the
main part of the plastic material that you're holding a
single use, single use plastics ninety act centum are made
(08:38):
from oil and gas, but any type of plastic will
have that type of petrol backbone essentially. And then there
are all these additional additives I mentioned before included into
the plastic to give it its characteristic depending on what
it's trying to do. So things like PFAS, which has
been in the media a lot lately, forever chemicals, ye,
forever chemicals exactly. But another one which most people don't
(08:59):
really know about, something called a phthalate, which is basically
these classic chemicals that we know are endocrime disrupting chemicals,
and what that means is they essentially alter our body's
natural hormone system. So these chemicals are getting included into
that oil and gas backbone that I mentioned before, with
very little transparency on the reporting as well. So when
(09:20):
these plastics are made, we often don't know what's in
the plastic. But what we're now learning, which is probably
the most concerning component of all this, is that the
plastic particles are breaking down to these tiny fragments, to
what we call a microplastic, which is essentially smaller than
half a centimeter, but they can go right down to
the size of something like a human blood cell or
smaller than your human hair, so you wouldn't actually see
(09:41):
these particles in the environment. So they're essentially every wedding,
and so a lot of research in the last two
to three years has come out looking at both how
they accumulate in our bodies so they get in and
they don't leave. But we've just done a review last
year looking at what are the health effects of these
microplastic particles. It's been tricky to study, so you know
a lot of authoritative bodies around the world have to
(10:02):
regulate chemicals using animal studies because that's all we have.
And what we found across large number of animal studies
were these really consistent effects in the respiratory, digestive and
also reproductive system. So we saw the impact of fertility.
We also saw that increase these biological markers in our body,
things like chronic inflammation in both the lung and also
(10:25):
in the column. So we saw these suspected links to
these cancers. So we're starting to see more and more
evidence coming out to show that yeah, once these things
around our body, it makes sense they're oil and gas
and these chemicals I mentioned before they're going to lead
to a raft at health effects, which is the thing
that is probably most concerning.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
When it comes to the treaty. I suppose there are
so many facets that you have mentioned as concern areas,
from transparency, through production to marketing. What are some of
the big sticking points or the disagreements between countries in
these negotiations, or between even kind trees versus health experts.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Sure, I mean, if that's interesting point about countries birth
health experts. At the moment, I think in Geneva, there's
three hundred and thirty five last estimates industry lobbyists fossil
fuel and chemical companies, and I think they're out numbering
academics at five to one, or scientists at five to one,
and you know, indigenous communities at ten to one. So yeah,
(11:22):
these negotiations are flooded by the invested interests of these
corporations that want to produce plastics. And the main sticking
point very simply is that a number of fossil fuel
producing countries is coalition of countries which now includes the
United States. They do not want to cap plastics production
very simply. You know, they don't want to stop extracting
(11:43):
oil and gas out of the ground. But if we
are going to be using it for energy and transport,
the world starts transitioning regards to what the United States
is currently doing, they need a new revenue stroom, and
plastics is the obvious one because they can argue that
we are relying on them in society and we have
become but it doesn't mean they're essential. So the very
simple takeaway at the moment is that they don't want
(12:03):
to cap plastic, and over one hundred and ten nations
at the moment do and that's essentially where the treaties
still lie. Can we get agreement on.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
This if the influence of these manufacturers and lobbyists is
so intense, Is there a middle ground? Is there a
way to switch at scale for some change?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I mean this is the tricky part. So one
of the I don't want to say critical flaws or flaws,
but the actual rules of procedure and how the treaty
is going to be finalized. There's been one of the
main issues with it. Essentially, these countries are saying that
it needs to be a consensus so everyone has the
route and the draft rules of procedure actually allow for
(12:42):
what they call a qualified majority voting when consensus fails. So,
in other words, if you can't get consensus, can we
get a majority of votes to essentially move the treaty
language forward and start finalizing something that is legally binding.
Because at the moment this is the fifth meeting, it
was actually meant to be the final meaning back in
November last year, and again language could not be finalized
(13:03):
because there was a consensus. So what may happen here
is that there is you know, this country is just
won't agree to consensus and they are also with their
recognize this idea of a qualified majority voting if it
does take place. So what may need to happen is
the countries that are say, look, we want to we
want to come up with a global plan on how
(13:24):
we redgise plastics. Is it they essentially develop it, and
they're going to have to try to do that, you know,
with those those countries removed from the process, because otherwise
just nothing will take playing some fortunate we are just
going to be in this essentially a whole wind pattern.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
What role is Australia playing in these negotiations? Are we
leading or lagging with the pack? And how does that
take into our own plastics manufacturing here.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, Australia at the
moment is in alignment with the idea that there needs
to be reduction in plastic production. So in Australia is
supporting this idea that we don't want, that we should
be trying to catch to a sustainable level. It's a
little bit vague in terms of I guess you know
what our complete commitment is, and we certainly can still
do a lot more back in Australia immediately as well.
(14:10):
I mean, there's no reason why we don't immediately ban
on essential plastics since you use plastics in Australia. There's
lots we can do that current environment, which is important
and we're not a huge global player. But I mean
the fact that we are supporting a reduction in plastic
I think is important.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
What are some of the key points that you think
belong in a successful treaty? What would be your kind
of priority areas for the most urgent things that if
you could change tomorrow you would enact.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, I mean the obvious one, as we've talked about,
is capping. This keeps me up at night. Because I
don't think people fully understand how much this is going
to impact generations to come, particularly if you have children,
which I do. Even if we start to cap plastics,
and if we move towards reducing the volume, the amount
(15:03):
that's already in the environment, this is the really scary
but we can't get it out. It's in everything, It's
in every type of soil sediment. The particles are so
small in the ocean, they're already in our body, and
so that for me, is probably the most concerning piece.
But we do need to take action, and so capping
is absolutely critical to this, and there's a need to
(15:24):
look immediately at non essential materials. So just very simply
what is not critical for society to function. A critical
piece of material may be something like a medical device,
but even still there may be alternative materials that could
be used. The second thing is chemicals. You mentioned chemicals before.
We already have a list of four thousand knowe toxic
chemicals in plastics is about sixteen thousand that have been identified,
(15:48):
and so we need to bound those immediately being used
because once they're into the plastic, as I mentioned before,
we can't recycle those plastics. If those toxic chemicals are
in there or it's incredibly difficult to do that. So essentially,
once they're put in, we know that they're going to
end up in landfill. And there needs to be global
implementation of databasic chemicals that are identified as toxic, similar
(16:09):
to the stock Own convention where they just get banned,
we can't use them. So that's the second thing when
it's bound these toxic chemicals. A third thing is the
transparency around it. It needs to be reporting. So when
plastics are made, we need to know what's in them.
Currently we have very little idea of how many added
into these plastics. And then finally, how are we going
to pay for all this and implement it? And this
is critical, this is happening. This is an issue, a
(16:31):
key issue with a lot of environmental catastrophes, similar to pafas,
where we have manufacturers and producers of these chemicals and
these environmental contaminants that essentially externalize the costs. So what
do I mean by that is they can make it,
they make it a very cheap price, and then they
sell it. We consume it, but then we pay for
(16:53):
the health implications, both human health and environmental and so
we're burdened with the ongoing impact and costs of these products,
even when we know that they're toxic low we do
now at plastics, So it's critical. It's really critical that
the implementation of a tree, but also just moving forward
globally in terms of how we remediate and how we
reduce the impact or repair the impact of these contaminants
(17:17):
is that we put the burden back on the pluta.
So the fossil full industry is the petrochemical companies and
the plastic companies that are making these need to bear
the costs for the impact that it calls into the environment.
So capping plastic, removing toxic chemicals, increasing transparency on what's
going into them, and making the pluters pay for this
have been the four main things I'd want to see
in this treet you.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
My last question for you, I think for individuals and
as young people much of our audience are young Australians,
it can feel a little bit hopeless or overwhelming when
we consider these ongoing negotiations. You know, a bunch of
faceless suits at a table overseas trying to determine ways
around this. What can we do or can we do
(18:00):
anything to actually make a difference beyond just recycling. As
you've mentioned, that's its own flawed beast. What would your
advice be.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Put it on the ballot. We know that civil action
and engagement around an issue can lead to change because
there are a lot of community action groups out there
at the moment on this, and also consumer action will
lead to a lot of manufacturers changing. People can talk
to their local members. We need to ensure that governments
know that this is something that potentially could lead to
(18:30):
their position in parliament changing. There is an opportunity for
people to get around this as an idea and to
get governments to start responding in a timely way, because
if we wait thirty years and plastic production triples, the
amount of plastic that's going to be in this world
and this environment's going to be near and possible to remove.
The idea is not to scare people. I think it's
important for people to be aware of what's happening. It's
(18:53):
a difficult concept to understand, and we've all been misinformed
about recycling idea that we can take care of it
through that process and we simply can't. But we can
take action, and certainly I think people may informed. It's
more important than you're not having that information to make
your own decisions.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Nick, thank you so much for your time, fascinating and terrifying,
and we will keep an eye on all the developments
out of these negotiations.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Thanks you Ta, such a fascinating chat there. Thank you
so much to doctor Nicholas Charters for that chat, and
to Emma for doing that amazing interview. And thank you
so much for listening to this episode of The Daily Os.
We'll be back this evening with your evening headlines, but
until then, have a great day.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda
Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily Os acknowledges
that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
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