February 23, 2025 • 14 mins
Just a heads up, today’s episode discusses extremely distressing themes including child sexual abuse and suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
Last year, the story of a French rape case and the woman at its centre, Gisèle Pélicot, captured global attention. 51 men, including her ex-husband, were found guilty of charges including rape and sexual assault. Just months after that shocking case concluded, another French case is now in the spotlight — with the country’s largest child sexual abuse trial set to begin this week. Retired French surgeon Joel Le Scouarnec is accused of sexually abusing some 300 people, mostly children, often while they were under anaesthetic in a hospital. In today's deep dive, we discuss the allegations against Le Scouarnec, and the seperate investigation that led police to uncover 25 years worth of evidence, and the names of hundreds of alleged victims.
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Hosts: Emma Gillespie and Zara Seidler
Producer: Orla Maher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just a heads up. Today's episode contains some extremely distressing themes,
and I want to make sure that listeners know that
those themes will be discussed pretty much as soon as
we get started on the podcast that includes distressing themes
child sexual abuse, suicide. If you're not feeling up to
it today, please feel free to skip this episode. There
(00:22):
are some links in the show notes to resources, including
one eight hundred Respect Lifeline is available twenty four to
seven on thirteen eleven fourteen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Already and this this is the Daily This is the
Daily OS.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to
the Daily OS. It's Monday, the twenty fourth of February.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm Emma, I'm Zara.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Last year, the story of a French rape case and
the woman at its center, Giselle Pelico, captured global attention.
Men including her ex husband, were found guilty of varying
charges including rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault. Now, just
months after that shocking case concluded, another French case is
in the spotlight, with the country's largest child sexual abuse
(01:16):
trial set to begin this week.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So, and before you mentioned this trial in the office,
I have to be honest, I hadn't heard anything about it,
and it is so shocking and so unbelievable for people
like me who haven't heard anything about this. What do
we need to know about this case in fans?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yes. So this week legal proceedings against a French surgeon
called Joel Lesquaranac will begin in the country's northwest. Now,
he is a seventy four year old accused of sexually
abusing some three hundred people, mostly children, often while they
were under anesthetic in a hospital. Lasquanac specialized in abdominal
(02:00):
and stomach surgery, but retired in twenty seventeen, and later
that year he was arrested and charged with raping two
of his nieces, as well as a six year old
girl and another young patient. During that investigation, police seized
child sized sex dolls and more than three hundred thousand
child abuse images from his house. Now, it was during
(02:23):
that search that another really important piece of evidence emerged,
which was twenty five years worth of his personal diaries.
So la Squanac lodged thousands of pages where he appeared
to describe in detail decades of assaults that he had
perpetrated against young patients. He also wrote several times in
those diaries. I am a pedophile. Lesquanac denied the charges
(02:48):
at the time, back in twenty seventeen, so there were
four rape charges and he said that the diary pages
were mere fantasies. However, in twenty twenty he was found
guilty of abusing all four children and sentenced to fifteen
years imprisonment.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
There's a lot there. Yeah, As we said at the top,
it's extremely, extremely distressing, and I do just want to
again emphasize that if people listening to this are not
in the right headspace, to just stop now and come
back tomorrow, because this story actually does get worse, but
just to go back to what you were saying. So,
he's already serving time for child sexual abuse, but this
(03:25):
week's trial is a separate investigation. It relates to different allegations,
right exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So a separate trial is due to start later today
in a court in Van Brittany, and that centers around
allegations that the squank assaulted or raped two hundred and
ninety nine patients between nineteen eighty nine and twenty fourteen.
Of the alleged victims, two hundred and fifty six were
under fifteen, including a one year old baby. The oldest
(03:53):
victim was aged seventy at the time of the alleged incident,
but prosecutors say the average age of these victims is
eleven years old. Now, the reason that I gave you
that previous context about the twenty seventeen investigation when he
was found guilty of the rape of those four children
is that the evidence uncovered during that investigation connected police
(04:18):
to this investigation. So police continued their inquiries after he
was convicted, suspecting that Lasquanac had perpetrated abuse against many,
many others, based on those twenty five years worth of
diary entries that I mentioned. So those diary entries included
the names of hundreds of victims, alleged victims, and hundreds
(04:40):
of dates, and that's where police started this investigation. So
they ended up gathering the testimonies of around three hundred
alleged victims, many of whom they discovered were patients of
Lusquanac when he was a surgeon, and that led to
more than one hundred rape charges and more than one
hundred and fifty of sexual assault to be brought against him.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
You've spoken there about the fact that this man is
a retired surgeon, and that some of these claims center
around hospital settings, which you just brings another layer to
this extremely dense story. What can you tell me about
that aspect of the case.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yes, so, of the two hundred and ninety nine alleged victims,
investigators claim that most were assaulted in around a dozen
or so different hospitals across France over a period of
fifteen years now. When this investigation was first made public
in late twenty twenty, French prosecutors said most of the
children were abused while they were under anesthetic or some
(05:44):
kind of sedative treatment. That includes assaults in operating rooms
and also assaults in hospital beds. The BBC spoke to
some of these former patients, who are now all adults,
and said they remember the surgeon quote touching them under
the guise of medical examinations, sometimes even when their parents
(06:05):
or other doctors were in the room. So I mentioned
that he had specialized in stomach and abdominal surgery and
so would conduct physical examinations pertaining to that, and that's
what this quote from the BBC kind of alludes to.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Hospitals are, you know, above all meant to be safe places,
but they're also quite public spaces. Has there been any discussion,
because I think this is what I can't quite get over,
how a surgeon could allegedly abuse patients over such a
long period without raising suspicion.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
This case really has raised a lot of questions about
potential shortcomings in the medical system in France and its
legal system, and you know, these questions around if more
could have been done to intervene earlier. Now that's led
to a two thousand and four incident coming under fresh scrutiny.
(06:58):
This relates to an FBI discovery actually from US investigators.
Lesquannac was investigated for viewing child sexual abuse images online.
After the FBI discovered that he was using the Dark
Web to access child abuse materials, the FBI alerted French authorities,
who then conducted an investigation. Now, the surgeon was convicted
(07:23):
over possession of these materials in two thousand and five,
but he was handed a suspended sentence, a four month
suspended prison sentence, which means that he didn't actually have
to serve any time behind bars.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So what you're saying is that in two thousand and
five he was convicted over the possession of child abuse materials.
He didn't serve jail time, and he was allowed to
practice as a surgeon after that time. Because you said
that he retired in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, So that same year that that conviction was brought,
he started working in a new hospital. Some of the
staff there were aware of the investigation from being in
the industry and hearing other hospitals discuss the matter. But
the hospital that he had started working at that Lasquanac
began working out in that year. He did not disclose
(08:14):
the charge to them, but some of these concerned staff
essentially called for his resignation. They questioned whether or not
he should be working as a surgeon with children, but
he refused to resign, and those staff eventually wrote to
the hospital's director and a state regulatory body to express
their concern. The hospital defended the surgeon. It actually promoted
(08:36):
him to the head of surgery in two thousand and five,
and local authorities never brought any sanctions against Lasquanac. He
then started working at another hospital in two thousand and eight.
Management there knew about the investigation, but they disregarded this
and hired him, and he continued to work there until
(08:57):
his twenty seventeen retirement. As you said, Zarah, the Squannac
was never barred from practicing, and eventually this French advocacy
group called the Child's Voice would call this a collective failure,
and that's a discussion that has been reignited now around
this trial. The Child's Voice also claims the court that
(09:17):
convicted the Squannac in two thousand and five failed in
its legal obligation to notify the National Surgery Watchdog under
the French Public Health Code. So this argument that the
court that convicted the Squannac had an obligation to notify
regulators to potentially look into removing him from being able
to perform surgeries to practice as a doctor, but the
(09:41):
process was never adequately completed that they were not notified.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Okay, So now this trial begins. It begins in France
on Monday local time. Given the scale of the charges,
how long is a case like this expected to last?
And one of the remarkable elements of the Gazelle Pellico
case was that as a victim, she waived her right
to anonymity and she spoke publicly and attracted global attention
(10:08):
to her cause. What do we understand about the alleged
victims in this.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Case, So unlike the Gazelle Pelico trial, we've got three
hundred alleged victims here who have not been named, though
some of them have publicly come forward and spoken to
various media outlets and lawyers for some of those alleged
victims have come forward, so there are some that have
been named. Authorities have set aside four months for this
(10:34):
trial to take place, and that really speaks to you
the scale of the number of charges that will need
to be worked through. So we'll expect to hear a
lot more through to at least June. But one of
the complexities of this case, like the Pellico case, is
that many of the alleged victims have very little recollection
of the assaults that are alleged to have taken place
(10:54):
because they were under sedation. Age is also a factor here,
with many of those alleged victims too young to remember
being in hospital or the time when these incidents took place,
according to investigators. One of the lawyers representing several victims,
Francesca Sata, she's involved in the trial and told the
BBC that among her clients are the families of two
(11:17):
men who did remember what had happened to them and
who ended up taking their own lives. So those families
will be fighting for justice on their behalf. Another alleged victim,
a woman now in her thirties, told local news outlet
France Blur that she suffered unresolved mental health issues for years,
never understanding why doctors had suspected that she'd suffered a
(11:39):
childhood trauma. But it wasn't until police contacted her because
her name appeared in those personal diaries that the memory
of her alleged assault came flooding back.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
A trial of this scale, and I guess magnitude is
fairly rare, like the number of as you said, the
number of alleged victims is so great that I imagine
there will be a lot of global attention again on it.
I'm curious though, because in the Gazelle Pelico case, what
came with the case was this real groundswell of activism
(12:11):
I guess i'd call it, and certainly a push for
legislative change. Are we seeing that same sort of reaction
this time around?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah? I think, as you mentioned, Zara, we can only
expect this kind of conversation to become louder and louder
over the coming months, but there has already been this
ground swell of support for the alleged victims calls for
reform from several advocacy and legal bodies. There is this
group of six child protection associations in France that have
formed a coalition to support the alleged victims, and they've
(12:41):
called the trial quote an opportunity, among other things, to
recall that the fight against sexual violence against minors cannot
be carried out effectively without collective and coordinated work between
community actors, public authorities, and judicial bodies. And this speaks
to kind of those concerns about systemic ailires and what
failures may have allowed the alleged perpetrator to continue his
(13:05):
abuse over several decades. This coalition argue that the trial
is not limited to the judgment of an individual. They've
said that it must also contribute to a collective awareness
of the need to better identify, report, listen to and
protect children. Really, they've called on the French government as
a whole to guarantee quote the proper functioning of its
(13:26):
institutions to prevent these crimes from happening again.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Look, it's absolutely a case that we'll be keeping a
close eye on and as you just outline there the
consequences and ramifications of a case like this, not just
nationally but also internationally. If today's episode has raised any
concerns for you, you can contact one eight hundred Respect
on one eight hundred seven three seven seven three to
two or head to one eight hundred Respect dot org
(13:53):
dot au for resources. Lifeline is always available on thirteen
eleven fourteen. Take care of yourself and we'll be back
again this afternoon. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm
a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkudin woman from Gadighl Country. The
Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the
(14:14):
lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all
Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay our
respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past
and present
Just a heads up. Today's episode contains some extremely distressing themes,
and I want to make sure that listeners know that
those themes will be discussed pretty much as soon as
we get started on the podcast that includes distressing themes
child sexual abuse, suicide. If you're not feeling up to
it today, please feel free to skip this episode. There
(00:22):
are some links in the show notes to resources, including
one eight hundred Respect Lifeline is available twenty four to
seven on thirteen eleven fourteen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Already and this this is the Daily This is the
Daily OS.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to
the Daily OS. It's Monday, the twenty fourth of February.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm Emma, I'm Zara.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Last year, the story of a French rape case and
the woman at its center, Giselle Pelico, captured global attention.
Men including her ex husband, were found guilty of varying
charges including rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault. Now, just
months after that shocking case concluded, another French case is
in the spotlight, with the country's largest child sexual abuse
(01:16):
trial set to begin this week.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So, and before you mentioned this trial in the office,
I have to be honest, I hadn't heard anything about it,
and it is so shocking and so unbelievable for people
like me who haven't heard anything about this. What do
we need to know about this case in fans?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yes. So this week legal proceedings against a French surgeon
called Joel Lesquaranac will begin in the country's northwest. Now,
he is a seventy four year old accused of sexually
abusing some three hundred people, mostly children, often while they
were under anesthetic in a hospital. Lasquanac specialized in abdominal
(02:00):
and stomach surgery, but retired in twenty seventeen, and later
that year he was arrested and charged with raping two
of his nieces, as well as a six year old
girl and another young patient. During that investigation, police seized
child sized sex dolls and more than three hundred thousand
child abuse images from his house. Now, it was during
(02:23):
that search that another really important piece of evidence emerged,
which was twenty five years worth of his personal diaries.
So la Squanac lodged thousands of pages where he appeared
to describe in detail decades of assaults that he had
perpetrated against young patients. He also wrote several times in
those diaries. I am a pedophile. Lesquanac denied the charges
(02:48):
at the time, back in twenty seventeen, so there were
four rape charges and he said that the diary pages
were mere fantasies. However, in twenty twenty he was found
guilty of abusing all four children and sentenced to fifteen
years imprisonment.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
There's a lot there. Yeah, As we said at the top,
it's extremely, extremely distressing, and I do just want to
again emphasize that if people listening to this are not
in the right headspace, to just stop now and come
back tomorrow, because this story actually does get worse, but
just to go back to what you were saying. So,
he's already serving time for child sexual abuse, but this
(03:25):
week's trial is a separate investigation. It relates to different allegations,
right exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So a separate trial is due to start later today
in a court in Van Brittany, and that centers around
allegations that the squank assaulted or raped two hundred and
ninety nine patients between nineteen eighty nine and twenty fourteen.
Of the alleged victims, two hundred and fifty six were
under fifteen, including a one year old baby. The oldest
(03:53):
victim was aged seventy at the time of the alleged incident,
but prosecutors say the average age of these victims is
eleven years old. Now, the reason that I gave you
that previous context about the twenty seventeen investigation when he
was found guilty of the rape of those four children
is that the evidence uncovered during that investigation connected police
(04:18):
to this investigation. So police continued their inquiries after he
was convicted, suspecting that Lasquanac had perpetrated abuse against many,
many others, based on those twenty five years worth of
diary entries that I mentioned. So those diary entries included
the names of hundreds of victims, alleged victims, and hundreds
(04:40):
of dates, and that's where police started this investigation. So
they ended up gathering the testimonies of around three hundred
alleged victims, many of whom they discovered were patients of
Lusquanac when he was a surgeon, and that led to
more than one hundred rape charges and more than one
hundred and fifty of sexual assault to be brought against him.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
You've spoken there about the fact that this man is
a retired surgeon, and that some of these claims center
around hospital settings, which you just brings another layer to
this extremely dense story. What can you tell me about
that aspect of the case.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yes, so, of the two hundred and ninety nine alleged victims,
investigators claim that most were assaulted in around a dozen
or so different hospitals across France over a period of
fifteen years now. When this investigation was first made public
in late twenty twenty, French prosecutors said most of the
children were abused while they were under anesthetic or some
(05:44):
kind of sedative treatment. That includes assaults in operating rooms
and also assaults in hospital beds. The BBC spoke to
some of these former patients, who are now all adults,
and said they remember the surgeon quote touching them under
the guise of medical examinations, sometimes even when their parents
(06:05):
or other doctors were in the room. So I mentioned
that he had specialized in stomach and abdominal surgery and
so would conduct physical examinations pertaining to that, and that's
what this quote from the BBC kind of alludes to.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Hospitals are, you know, above all meant to be safe places,
but they're also quite public spaces. Has there been any discussion,
because I think this is what I can't quite get over,
how a surgeon could allegedly abuse patients over such a
long period without raising suspicion.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
This case really has raised a lot of questions about
potential shortcomings in the medical system in France and its
legal system, and you know, these questions around if more
could have been done to intervene earlier. Now that's led
to a two thousand and four incident coming under fresh scrutiny.
(06:58):
This relates to an FBI discovery actually from US investigators.
Lesquannac was investigated for viewing child sexual abuse images online.
After the FBI discovered that he was using the Dark
Web to access child abuse materials, the FBI alerted French authorities,
who then conducted an investigation. Now, the surgeon was convicted
(07:23):
over possession of these materials in two thousand and five,
but he was handed a suspended sentence, a four month
suspended prison sentence, which means that he didn't actually have
to serve any time behind bars.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So what you're saying is that in two thousand and
five he was convicted over the possession of child abuse materials.
He didn't serve jail time, and he was allowed to
practice as a surgeon after that time. Because you said
that he retired in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, So that same year that that conviction was brought,
he started working in a new hospital. Some of the
staff there were aware of the investigation from being in
the industry and hearing other hospitals discuss the matter. But
the hospital that he had started working at that Lasquanac
began working out in that year. He did not disclose
(08:14):
the charge to them, but some of these concerned staff
essentially called for his resignation. They questioned whether or not
he should be working as a surgeon with children, but
he refused to resign, and those staff eventually wrote to
the hospital's director and a state regulatory body to express
their concern. The hospital defended the surgeon. It actually promoted
(08:36):
him to the head of surgery in two thousand and five,
and local authorities never brought any sanctions against Lasquanac. He
then started working at another hospital in two thousand and eight.
Management there knew about the investigation, but they disregarded this
and hired him, and he continued to work there until
(08:57):
his twenty seventeen retirement. As you said, Zarah, the Squannac
was never barred from practicing, and eventually this French advocacy
group called the Child's Voice would call this a collective failure,
and that's a discussion that has been reignited now around
this trial. The Child's Voice also claims the court that
(09:17):
convicted the Squannac in two thousand and five failed in
its legal obligation to notify the National Surgery Watchdog under
the French Public Health Code. So this argument that the
court that convicted the Squannac had an obligation to notify
regulators to potentially look into removing him from being able
to perform surgeries to practice as a doctor, but the
(09:41):
process was never adequately completed that they were not notified.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Okay, So now this trial begins. It begins in France
on Monday local time. Given the scale of the charges,
how long is a case like this expected to last?
And one of the remarkable elements of the Gazelle Pellico
case was that as a victim, she waived her right
to anonymity and she spoke publicly and attracted global attention
(10:08):
to her cause. What do we understand about the alleged
victims in this.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Case, So unlike the Gazelle Pelico trial, we've got three
hundred alleged victims here who have not been named, though
some of them have publicly come forward and spoken to
various media outlets and lawyers for some of those alleged
victims have come forward, so there are some that have
been named. Authorities have set aside four months for this
(10:34):
trial to take place, and that really speaks to you
the scale of the number of charges that will need
to be worked through. So we'll expect to hear a
lot more through to at least June. But one of
the complexities of this case, like the Pellico case, is
that many of the alleged victims have very little recollection
of the assaults that are alleged to have taken place
(10:54):
because they were under sedation. Age is also a factor here,
with many of those alleged victims too young to remember
being in hospital or the time when these incidents took place,
according to investigators. One of the lawyers representing several victims,
Francesca Sata, she's involved in the trial and told the
BBC that among her clients are the families of two
(11:17):
men who did remember what had happened to them and
who ended up taking their own lives. So those families
will be fighting for justice on their behalf. Another alleged victim,
a woman now in her thirties, told local news outlet
France Blur that she suffered unresolved mental health issues for years,
never understanding why doctors had suspected that she'd suffered a
(11:39):
childhood trauma. But it wasn't until police contacted her because
her name appeared in those personal diaries that the memory
of her alleged assault came flooding back.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
A trial of this scale, and I guess magnitude is
fairly rare, like the number of as you said, the
number of alleged victims is so great that I imagine
there will be a lot of global attention again on it.
I'm curious though, because in the Gazelle Pelico case, what
came with the case was this real groundswell of activism
(12:11):
I guess i'd call it, and certainly a push for
legislative change. Are we seeing that same sort of reaction
this time around?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah? I think, as you mentioned, Zara, we can only
expect this kind of conversation to become louder and louder
over the coming months, but there has already been this
ground swell of support for the alleged victims calls for
reform from several advocacy and legal bodies. There is this
group of six child protection associations in France that have
formed a coalition to support the alleged victims, and they've
(12:41):
called the trial quote an opportunity, among other things, to
recall that the fight against sexual violence against minors cannot
be carried out effectively without collective and coordinated work between
community actors, public authorities, and judicial bodies. And this speaks
to kind of those concerns about systemic ailires and what
failures may have allowed the alleged perpetrator to continue his
(13:05):
abuse over several decades. This coalition argue that the trial
is not limited to the judgment of an individual. They've
said that it must also contribute to a collective awareness
of the need to better identify, report, listen to and
protect children. Really, they've called on the French government as
a whole to guarantee quote the proper functioning of its
(13:26):
institutions to prevent these crimes from happening again.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Look, it's absolutely a case that we'll be keeping a
close eye on and as you just outline there the
consequences and ramifications of a case like this, not just
nationally but also internationally. If today's episode has raised any
concerns for you, you can contact one eight hundred Respect
on one eight hundred seven three seven seven three to
two or head to one eight hundred Respect dot org
(13:53):
dot au for resources. Lifeline is always available on thirteen
eleven fourteen. Take care of yourself and we'll be back
again this afternoon. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm
a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkudin woman from Gadighl Country. The
Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the
(14:14):
lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all
Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay our
respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past
and present
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