August 16, 2025 • 12 mins
Today we're diving into the psychology behind small changes and why they stick. We're talking about something called habit stacking - a technique that promises to help you build better routines by linking new habits to ones you already do automatically.
Hosts: Sam Koslowski and Billi FitzSimons
Producer: Orla Maher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's episode is brought to you by Blackmore's and their
game changing Rappie Melt range, which supports general health and wellbeing.
If you've wanted to get better at taking your vitamins,
here's a trick habit stacking. It's all about pairing a
new habit like taking a Rappi melt with something you
already do, like brushing your teeth or making a morning
coffee or yep. Listening to this podcast, always read the
(00:21):
label and follow the directions for use already.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
now it makes sense.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Sunday,
the seventeenth of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm Billy fit Simon's.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Today we're going to dive into the psychology behind small
changes and why they stick. We're talking about something called
habit stacking, a technique that promises to help you build
better routines by linking new habits to ones you already do.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
What Sam, I have to admit that habit stacking doesn't
feel very TDA.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
It feels very Diary of a CEO.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Help.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I like it, but I've always maybe I shouldn't
admit this, but I've always been a tiny bit of
a woo woo skeptic, I think, And so this feels
like maybe you're about to change all of our lives
with a new rule as to how to get into
new habits, or it's going to be nonsense, and I'm
excited to see which one it is.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well, something we talk about a lot at TDA is
trying to empower young people to engage with the world
around them.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
That is our mission statement.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We do that through the news, but I think there's
opportunities as we keep growing as a company to do
more about how to engage with the world in different ways,
and part of that is actually about how to manage
the world around us.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I love that. So this is about habit stacking. What
exactly is that?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So I want you to picture a Rube Goldberg machine,
and that's a name that you're not going to know,
but you're going to know when I describe it. It's
one of those machines where you see a domino being
tipped over and then that domino releases a ball and
the ball rolls down the little ramp, and the ramp
then hits a bell and the vibrations of the bell
leads to a fan turning on, and that fan pulls
(02:15):
a curtain away and it keeps going and go. Yeah.
So basically it's this elaborate contraption that a tiny little
movement releases a whole chain of events. I first became
familiar with the Rube Goldberg machine through Okay Go, which
is a band that is known for doing these incredible
music videos, and you can watch a four minute kind
(02:36):
of process that's all started by a very simple movement.
And habit stacking works on the same principle. So you
take something you already do automatically, like brushing your teeth,
and then you immediately follow it up with a new
habit that you want to build, like let's say doing
ten push ups. So as soon as you feel that
toothbrush in your mouth, the idea is that, all right, now,
(02:57):
I know it's time next to do my end push ups.
And the idea is that your existing habit then becomes
this trigger for this new habit. And it's more helpful
than just saying I'm going to do the push ups
by itself.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
So you're just attaching it to a pre existing habit.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, and it sounds really simple, but it's actually based
on neuroscience, and it's based on this idea called neuroplasticity,
which is your brain's ability to form new connections. And
I try and think about this like a hiking trail.
So at first, if you decide you want to walk
straight into the bush, there's no path there. You kind
of have to bush bash and push trees away and
(03:36):
make sure that you can kind of find a way through.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Ah, yes, that thing I did on the weekend. Yeah,
you're just walking straight in.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You know, when you come to work on Monday, I
say how's your weekend, and you say it was good
at bushbash. Yeah. Well, as more people walk along that path,
the path becomes clearer and you start to see a
bit of dirt kind of along the pathway, and you
know where to go. That's essentially what happens in your
brain when you strengthen a pathway through doing an action
(04:03):
over and over again.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Can I talk about myself for two seconds?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Always?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Over the past two years, I've gone on a real
running journey and I've heard about it. Yes, And I
truly never thought that I would be a runner, but
I did this time last Sunday, do City to Serve,
and I was able to run it for the first time,
and I truly never thought I would be able to
do that, but it must have been. I didn't exactly
know the term habit stacking, but looking back, it was
(04:27):
definitely through habit stacking that I was able to do that.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So what did you attach those first runs too?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Listening to podcasts amazing? Yes, I love listening to podcasts,
and I was like, I'm going to do that because
I already loved doing that whilst doing something that I
don't initially love as much.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
That's exactly habit stacking in a nutshell. Another way that
psychologists talk about habit stacking is Pavlov. So. Pavlov was
this psychologist who in the twentieth century popularized this idea
of the brain associating a noise or a trigger with
a movement. So he did this experiment with bells where
dogs learned that the ringing of a bell led to
(05:07):
them coming to a certain location, and then over time,
just hearing the bell almost automatically moved the dogs to
that location. And habit sacking is essentially the same thing
the existing habit. So you listening to a podcast then
becomes a trigger, and that new behavior becomes an automatic response.
So you know, according to Pavlov, if you just kept
(05:27):
listening to podcasts, you just get out of your chair
and start running, which is not quite how it works
in reality, but it's you're piggybacking on that release of dopamine.
You felt really good listening to your podcasts, and then
you associated this new habit of running with your old
love of podcasts, and that neural pathway is becoming stronger
(05:48):
and stronger, and that bush bashing actually just becomes a
lovely path How.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Hard is it?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think we're making it sound like it's kind of
this magic bullet in terms of how to, I guess
change your life not to be dramatic. Is it really
that simple.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Though, Well, the research shows that it's limited to small
incremental changes rather than dramatic life transformations. So anything that's
major and really kind of deviating your life from its
current course that can't be attached to just brushing your
teeth or listening to a podcast. And the other big
(06:23):
limitation that psychologists comment on with habit stacking as an
idea is that if that original habit gets disrupted, then
the entire stack can collapse. So if you decide that
you don't like podcasts anymore, then you're running becomes the
casualty of your falling out of love of podcasting, So
(06:45):
there the whole system can fail. I mean, one example
is if you had a meditation practice of ten minutes
a day with a morning coffee, but then you skipped
your morning coffee because you had to lead for an
early meeting, then your meditation becomes the casual of that
got it?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And do experts give any tips in terms of how
to really make this work so that there is no casualty.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's all about starting really really small, so two to
five minute habits at most. So the goal is to
make it so easy as a habit to stack onto
an existing habit that it's pretty hard to say no to.
And if you can choose the rock habit, the original
habit that might not fall over as easily, like your
(07:28):
podcast is a daily habit that you've been listening to
for You've been listening to the TDA podcast every day
for three years. Oh yes, that's pretty entrenched. That's pretty entrenched,
and it's also pretty achievable. It's not like I do
a fifteen kilometer run every day for three years. That's
a big time commitment. The trick is also to focus
on one habit at a time, and that reduces the
chance of overwhelm and sets you up for success. It
(07:51):
ensures that you don't feel discouraged by the fact that
you haven't delivered on this new attempt to fill a habit.
And you have to remember that building a new neural
pathway isn't a fast process, and neuroscientists say it can
take anywhere from sixty to two hundred days, depending on
the complexity of the habit.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Wow, sixty to two hundred days. That can almost sound overwhelming.
But I think what you said about starting small, Like
if I had started by saying I'm going to run
fifteen kilometers a day like that is just so unachievable
that I would have immediately given up. Yeah, but if
it's okay, I'm going to start running.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Two kilometers exactly every.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Second day or every third day, I can see how
you can build on that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And dopamine is fascinating as a chemical release in our brains,
and it helps us by telling us we've done a
good job for something, even if it's small and We
can't underestimate the opposite of that, though, which is when
you fail at trying to stack a habit, that can
really set you back.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
And what's the.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Bigger picture here? Why do you think that people should
care about this?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Well?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I really have this quote from James Clear he wrote
atomic habits as kind of the front of my mind.
In this conversation, he said, all big things come from
small beginnings. The seed of every habit is a single,
tiny decision. But as that decision is repeated, a habit
sprouts and grows stronger. And the key reason why I
wanted to talk about this today is that it's a
(09:16):
good reminder that there is a compounding effect of small
actions and instead of trying to overhaul your entire life
all at once, it's a way to work smarter rather
than harder. And I think we always talk a lot
about changing life in big ways, you know, getting fitter
news resolutions, making sure we read before bed, making sure
we spend less time on social media. Those are really
(09:37):
big goals, and this is a way to kind of
figure out where a starting point can be.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I've shared my example of running. Do you have an
example of something that you've changed in your life. That
is an example of habit stacking.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I do. And I'm actually going to borrow your example
of linking a phone activity to exercise. So one of
the parts of my job as founder of the Daarly
Oars is to upload the quiz on the Saturday morning.
Every Saturday morning we do tda Quiz ten questions on
Instagram stories and a grid post. I've started doing that
on the treadmill at my local gym.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Okay, and love.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I am using it as I know I need to
upload the quiz.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I don't know that you went to the gym. I'm kidding,
look for me.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And it's really helping. It's really helping in getting me
to the gym. And it's a habit that I've done
for many years, and I know it's part of my
Saturday morning and now and then I try and get
off my phone for a little bit of time whilst
I'm on the treadmill. But that's me stuck in a
habit getting a little bit fitter. Maybe I'll do the
City Surf with you next year.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I will hold you to that.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
And I don't make that many mistakes in the quiz,
but I still.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Do make sense Okay, Sam, I think that's all we
have time for today. I have to get to listening
to this podcast while I go running love it's a
bit psychotic, probably, yes, and thank you so much for
listening to this episode of The Daily Yours. We'll be
back tomorrow with your normal deep dive, but until then,
have a lovely Sunday.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily ods acknowledges
that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Billy, what does brushing your teeth, doing a skincare and
listening to a podcast have in common?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
They are all things I do every single.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Day, and there are opportunities to have it stack.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
They are now we have just spoken at length about
habit stacking, but tell me how I can include vitamins
into my new habit stacking.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Well, what I've been doing is straight after I have
my morning coffee, I measure my beans nineteen grams every
single day. That's when I take my wrappy melts straight
after that coffee. So I'm literally just attaching that new
habit to my daily entrenched habit of coffee. So you
could do it right after your skincare. And the great
thing with Blackmore's rapping melts is that there's no pills
(12:11):
or no fuss. It's just a really quick wellness step
just before you go out the door to support your
general health and well being.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Now that's what I call being efficient.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, and there's a whole range of different types out there.
There's ENERGYB twelve, there's iron, there's immune, and there's nails,
hair and skin. It's really perfect for targeting whatever you need.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Where can I find them?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
You can grab them at your local pharmacy or online.
Always rid the label and follow the directions for use.
Today's episode is brought to you by Blackmore's and their
game changing Rappie Melt range, which supports general health and wellbeing.
If you've wanted to get better at taking your vitamins,
here's a trick habit stacking. It's all about pairing a
new habit like taking a Rappi melt with something you
already do, like brushing your teeth or making a morning
coffee or yep. Listening to this podcast, always read the
(00:21):
label and follow the directions for use already.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
now it makes sense.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Sunday,
the seventeenth of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm Billy fit Simon's.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Today we're going to dive into the psychology behind small
changes and why they stick. We're talking about something called
habit stacking, a technique that promises to help you build
better routines by linking new habits to ones you already do.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
What Sam, I have to admit that habit stacking doesn't
feel very TDA.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
It feels very Diary of a CEO.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Help.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I like it, but I've always maybe I shouldn't
admit this, but I've always been a tiny bit of
a woo woo skeptic, I think, And so this feels
like maybe you're about to change all of our lives
with a new rule as to how to get into
new habits, or it's going to be nonsense, and I'm
excited to see which one it is.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well, something we talk about a lot at TDA is
trying to empower young people to engage with the world
around them.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
That is our mission statement.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We do that through the news, but I think there's
opportunities as we keep growing as a company to do
more about how to engage with the world in different ways,
and part of that is actually about how to manage
the world around us.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I love that. So this is about habit stacking. What
exactly is that?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So I want you to picture a Rube Goldberg machine,
and that's a name that you're not going to know,
but you're going to know when I describe it. It's
one of those machines where you see a domino being
tipped over and then that domino releases a ball and
the ball rolls down the little ramp, and the ramp
then hits a bell and the vibrations of the bell
leads to a fan turning on, and that fan pulls
(02:15):
a curtain away and it keeps going and go. Yeah.
So basically it's this elaborate contraption that a tiny little
movement releases a whole chain of events. I first became
familiar with the Rube Goldberg machine through Okay Go, which
is a band that is known for doing these incredible
music videos, and you can watch a four minute kind
(02:36):
of process that's all started by a very simple movement.
And habit stacking works on the same principle. So you
take something you already do automatically, like brushing your teeth,
and then you immediately follow it up with a new
habit that you want to build, like let's say doing
ten push ups. So as soon as you feel that
toothbrush in your mouth, the idea is that, all right, now,
(02:57):
I know it's time next to do my end push ups.
And the idea is that your existing habit then becomes
this trigger for this new habit. And it's more helpful
than just saying I'm going to do the push ups
by itself.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
So you're just attaching it to a pre existing habit.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, and it sounds really simple, but it's actually based
on neuroscience, and it's based on this idea called neuroplasticity,
which is your brain's ability to form new connections. And
I try and think about this like a hiking trail.
So at first, if you decide you want to walk
straight into the bush, there's no path there. You kind
of have to bush bash and push trees away and
(03:36):
make sure that you can kind of find a way through.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Ah, yes, that thing I did on the weekend. Yeah,
you're just walking straight in.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You know, when you come to work on Monday, I
say how's your weekend, and you say it was good
at bushbash. Yeah. Well, as more people walk along that path,
the path becomes clearer and you start to see a
bit of dirt kind of along the pathway, and you
know where to go. That's essentially what happens in your
brain when you strengthen a pathway through doing an action
(04:03):
over and over again.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Can I talk about myself for two seconds?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Always?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Over the past two years, I've gone on a real
running journey and I've heard about it. Yes, And I
truly never thought that I would be a runner, but
I did this time last Sunday, do City to Serve,
and I was able to run it for the first time,
and I truly never thought I would be able to
do that, but it must have been. I didn't exactly
know the term habit stacking, but looking back, it was
(04:27):
definitely through habit stacking that I was able to do that.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So what did you attach those first runs too?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Listening to podcasts amazing? Yes, I love listening to podcasts,
and I was like, I'm going to do that because
I already loved doing that whilst doing something that I
don't initially love as much.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
That's exactly habit stacking in a nutshell. Another way that
psychologists talk about habit stacking is Pavlov. So. Pavlov was
this psychologist who in the twentieth century popularized this idea
of the brain associating a noise or a trigger with
a movement. So he did this experiment with bells where
dogs learned that the ringing of a bell led to
(05:07):
them coming to a certain location, and then over time,
just hearing the bell almost automatically moved the dogs to
that location. And habit sacking is essentially the same thing
the existing habit. So you listening to a podcast then
becomes a trigger, and that new behavior becomes an automatic response.
So you know, according to Pavlov, if you just kept
(05:27):
listening to podcasts, you just get out of your chair
and start running, which is not quite how it works
in reality, but it's you're piggybacking on that release of dopamine.
You felt really good listening to your podcasts, and then
you associated this new habit of running with your old
love of podcasts, and that neural pathway is becoming stronger
(05:48):
and stronger, and that bush bashing actually just becomes a
lovely path How.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Hard is it?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think we're making it sound like it's kind of
this magic bullet in terms of how to, I guess
change your life not to be dramatic. Is it really
that simple.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Though, Well, the research shows that it's limited to small
incremental changes rather than dramatic life transformations. So anything that's
major and really kind of deviating your life from its
current course that can't be attached to just brushing your
teeth or listening to a podcast. And the other big
(06:23):
limitation that psychologists comment on with habit stacking as an
idea is that if that original habit gets disrupted, then
the entire stack can collapse. So if you decide that
you don't like podcasts anymore, then you're running becomes the
casualty of your falling out of love of podcasting, So
(06:45):
there the whole system can fail. I mean, one example
is if you had a meditation practice of ten minutes
a day with a morning coffee, but then you skipped
your morning coffee because you had to lead for an
early meeting, then your meditation becomes the casual of that
got it?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And do experts give any tips in terms of how
to really make this work so that there is no casualty.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's all about starting really really small, so two to
five minute habits at most. So the goal is to
make it so easy as a habit to stack onto
an existing habit that it's pretty hard to say no to.
And if you can choose the rock habit, the original
habit that might not fall over as easily, like your
(07:28):
podcast is a daily habit that you've been listening to
for You've been listening to the TDA podcast every day
for three years. Oh yes, that's pretty entrenched. That's pretty entrenched,
and it's also pretty achievable. It's not like I do
a fifteen kilometer run every day for three years. That's
a big time commitment. The trick is also to focus
on one habit at a time, and that reduces the
chance of overwhelm and sets you up for success. It
(07:51):
ensures that you don't feel discouraged by the fact that
you haven't delivered on this new attempt to fill a habit.
And you have to remember that building a new neural
pathway isn't a fast process, and neuroscientists say it can
take anywhere from sixty to two hundred days, depending on
the complexity of the habit.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Wow, sixty to two hundred days. That can almost sound overwhelming.
But I think what you said about starting small, Like
if I had started by saying I'm going to run
fifteen kilometers a day like that is just so unachievable
that I would have immediately given up. Yeah, but if
it's okay, I'm going to start running.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Two kilometers exactly every.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Second day or every third day, I can see how
you can build on that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And dopamine is fascinating as a chemical release in our brains,
and it helps us by telling us we've done a
good job for something, even if it's small and We
can't underestimate the opposite of that, though, which is when
you fail at trying to stack a habit, that can
really set you back.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
And what's the.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Bigger picture here? Why do you think that people should
care about this?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Well?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I really have this quote from James Clear he wrote
atomic habits as kind of the front of my mind.
In this conversation, he said, all big things come from
small beginnings. The seed of every habit is a single,
tiny decision. But as that decision is repeated, a habit
sprouts and grows stronger. And the key reason why I
wanted to talk about this today is that it's a
(09:16):
good reminder that there is a compounding effect of small
actions and instead of trying to overhaul your entire life
all at once, it's a way to work smarter rather
than harder. And I think we always talk a lot
about changing life in big ways, you know, getting fitter
news resolutions, making sure we read before bed, making sure
we spend less time on social media. Those are really
(09:37):
big goals, and this is a way to kind of
figure out where a starting point can be.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I've shared my example of running. Do you have an
example of something that you've changed in your life. That
is an example of habit stacking.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I do. And I'm actually going to borrow your example
of linking a phone activity to exercise. So one of
the parts of my job as founder of the Daarly
Oars is to upload the quiz on the Saturday morning.
Every Saturday morning we do tda Quiz ten questions on
Instagram stories and a grid post. I've started doing that
on the treadmill at my local gym.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Okay, and love.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I am using it as I know I need to
upload the quiz.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I don't know that you went to the gym. I'm kidding,
look for me.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And it's really helping. It's really helping in getting me
to the gym. And it's a habit that I've done
for many years, and I know it's part of my
Saturday morning and now and then I try and get
off my phone for a little bit of time whilst
I'm on the treadmill. But that's me stuck in a
habit getting a little bit fitter. Maybe I'll do the
City Surf with you next year.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I will hold you to that.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
And I don't make that many mistakes in the quiz,
but I still.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Do make sense Okay, Sam, I think that's all we
have time for today. I have to get to listening
to this podcast while I go running love it's a
bit psychotic, probably, yes, and thank you so much for
listening to this episode of The Daily Yours. We'll be
back tomorrow with your normal deep dive, but until then,
have a lovely Sunday.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily ods acknowledges
that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Billy, what does brushing your teeth, doing a skincare and
listening to a podcast have in common?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
They are all things I do every single.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Day, and there are opportunities to have it stack.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
They are now we have just spoken at length about
habit stacking, but tell me how I can include vitamins
into my new habit stacking.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Well, what I've been doing is straight after I have
my morning coffee, I measure my beans nineteen grams every
single day. That's when I take my wrappy melts straight
after that coffee. So I'm literally just attaching that new
habit to my daily entrenched habit of coffee. So you
could do it right after your skincare. And the great
thing with Blackmore's rapping melts is that there's no pills
(12:11):
or no fuss. It's just a really quick wellness step
just before you go out the door to support your
general health and well being.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Now that's what I call being efficient.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, and there's a whole range of different types out there.
There's ENERGYB twelve, there's iron, there's immune, and there's nails,
hair and skin. It's really perfect for targeting whatever you need.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Where can I find them?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
You can grab them at your local pharmacy or online.
Always rid the label and follow the directions for use.
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