November 2, 2025 • 12 mins
Last week, late-term abortions came up as a point of contention in Australia’s Parliament.
It’s all because of a new proposed bill that would make it illegal for companies to cancel paid parental leave if a baby dies or is born stillborn.
So what’s the connection between that and late-term abortions? And how common actually are late term abortions?
We’ll tell you what you need to know in today’s podcast.
Hosts: Billi FitzSimons and Sam Koslowski
Producer: Elliot Lawry
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the
Daily OS. It's Monday, the third of November. I'm Billie
with Simon's.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Sam Kauzlowski.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Last week, late term abortions came up as a point
of contention in Australia's parliament. It's all because of a
new proposed bill that would make it illegal for companies
to cancel paid parental leave if a baby dies or
is born still born. So what's the connection between that
and late term abortions and how common actually are late
(00:42):
term abortions. We'll tell you what you need to know
in today's.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Podcast, Billy. When you pitch this story, I was confused
because abortions don't usually come up as a point of
debate in the federal parliament here in Australia. It feels
like a very American conversation to be having.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It does. And the reason why it doesn't usually come
up in Australia's federal parliament, well, there are two reasons.
The first one is that abortion is not dealt with
at a national level in Australia. It's a state and
territory issue. So each state government is responsible for creating
and enforcing their own abortion law, which actually is also
(01:22):
the case in the US. But it's very very different
because the second reason is that abortion, unlike in America,
is now decriminalized in all states and territories in Australia,
so it's not something that is still debated very often,
either in Federal Parliament or in any parliament in Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So give me a sense, then we have this uniform
approach now in Australia across those different jurisdictions. Why has
this topic come up now?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Just to clarify, there are still some differences between the
second governments.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
But at a baseline criminalization.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, definitely. The reason has come up now is because
of a bill that labor so the government has introduced
in Federal Parliament. But that bill on the face of
it doesn't actually have anything to.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Do with abortion, and so what should I be thinking
about with this bill in terms of the subject area.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So it's about paid parental leave. So last month the
federal government introduced a bill to make it illegal for
companies to cancel paid parental leave if a baby is
stillborn or dies in infancy. It is called Baby Pria's Bill,
and it was named after a baby called Pria who
died at six weeks old and her mother's paid parental
(02:38):
leave was canceled by her employer. So it was off
the back of her experience that the Government heard about
it and implemented this bill, which is yet to become
law but is currently being debated in Parliament, which is
why we're talking about it now, just to give you
a little bit more context. Currently, government funded paid parental
(02:59):
life leave is not canceled if a baby dies, but
employer funded paid parental leave can be.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Give me a sense of how the general Australian paid
parental leave scheme works, because I think it's important to
understand what are the current rules in order to understand
where a potential reform would fit.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, so employees can get paid parental leave payments from
both their employer and the government after a birth or adoption,
and you can get both at the same time. So
the government one gives parents twenty four weeks of minimum
wage payments. Parents do need to complete an income test
to prove their eligibility for that one because it is
(03:38):
capped at a certain salary, and then separate to that
employers can also give their employees paid parental leave on
top of that, on top of that, which can vary
depending on companies policies and contracts. But that's more to
maintain the salary that you're at. The government one is
minimum wage. Now, what this law is doing that we're
(03:59):
talking about today, it is making it illegal for companies
to cancel their agreed upon paid print to leave if
the employee's baby is born, stillborn, or dies.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
And so this bill, baby Priya's bill. You said that
that's a government bill before, so we know that labor
is supporting it because they're the ones proposing it. Give
me a sense then of the coalition's position.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, when TDA reached out to the opposition when the
bill was first introduced, the opposition confirmed that they were
in favor of it. So Shadow Employment Minister Tim Wilson
told TDA, quote, when families experience the devastating loss of
an infant, clocking into work should be the last thing
on their mind. He continued, this is an important step
(04:44):
to ensure compassion and dignity are afforded to grieving parents.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So when approximately was this statement given to.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Us about less than a month ago, But a few
weeks ago, okay, And it's true still today that the
opposition broadly is in support of this bill. But there's
a few politicians who have brought up concerns about what
they call possible unintended consequences of this bill. And this
is where abortion.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Comes in, Okay, So the unintended consequences. Now, is this
space that we're going to talk about. Yes, it's not
necessarily I assume a lack of sympathy for the extremely
traumatic event, but another kind of angle to this.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, And so specifically this is about late term abortions. Now,
just to give you some context, there's not one exact
definition of when an abortion is considered late term, but
broadly speaking its abortions after the twentieth week of pregnancy.
So in relation to this bill, a few politicians part
of the coalition, including former Nationals leader Barnaby Joyce and
(05:49):
also Liberal MP Andrew Hasty, who we recently spoke about
because it was speculated that he possibly wanted to take
the leadership of the Liberal Party from Susan Ly. He
has since stepped down from the front bench, but that's
a whole other story. But it's him and Barnaby Joyce,
who have kind of led this or are definitely the
most high profile Coalition politicians who are speaking out against this.
(06:11):
They have said that they are concerned that this bill
could apply to those who have late term abortions, which
they argue should not happen.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Let's get really specific though about what exactly they said here.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, well we can be so specific that I can
even play you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Let's let them speak.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, okay, so this is a little bit of what
Barnaby Joyce said in Parliament.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I'd stand on the position that the day after a
child is born, no matter what medical conditions or impairments
that might be there, you have no right to interfere
in their life, and therefore the day before, we believe
it's the same. That is something that I hope I've
(06:51):
lived by and I think it's incredibly important for me
to state my position on this. There must be a
clarification on this issue. It must be clarified before we
come to a vote.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
He went on to say that he supports the bill,
but he just doesn't support it if this one thing
is not clarified. And I just want to reiterate they
are not debating whether or not late term abortions should
be legal or not. Again, that's not a thing for
Federal Parliament to decide. They are debating whether this specific
law should apply to those who have late term abortions.
(07:29):
Although I say they are debating it, it's not really
a debate because it's not actually As we'll get into
part of this bill.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I want to pick up that point because that's a
really interesting one. But before we get there, I think
a really important duty of the news in dealing with
stories like this is to actually ground ourselves in the numbers.
So can you give me a sense of how actually
common are late term abortions?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Well, I think the first thing to say is that
late term abortions are not legal in most parts of Australia,
pretty much all parts of Australia, unless it is in
rare circumstances that call for it, such as fetal abnormality
or if the mother's life is deemed to be at risk,
and typically you'll need approval from two doctors. So that's
(08:13):
the case in all states and territories except the Act,
where there is no gestational limit. But again, late term
abortions remain very very rare there, and it is still
in only very rare circumstances.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So statistically insignificant.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yes, And I think why that's worth clarifying as well
is because it's not accurate to say that a woman
in Australia can get an abortion the day before she's
due to give birth. That is not legal. In terms
of how common late term abortions are, again remembering we're
talking about post twenty weeks of pregnancy. I couldn't find
an exact number for how many nationally occur. It's quite
(08:50):
complicated because it is dealt with states and territories. But
to give you an example, in South Australia, they say
the proportion of terminations that happen after twenty weeks is
less than three percent.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Okay, So the argument being mounted or entertained by Barnaby
Joyce is that there is a group that is falling
into this category because of a late term abortion. We
now understand that that's a very small group of people.
What has Andrew Hasty said on this then.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
He's basically said the same thing. He said that he
agrees with the intention of this bill, but he does
not support it being used for any person who has
a late term abortion, and so he has asked the
government to clarify if this applies to late.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Term abortions and has the government done that.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
They have, although they've basically said there's no clarification needed
because they argue the bill is very clear in talking
about stillbirths, which it points out is very different to abortions.
So the Health Minister Mark Butler said on ABC the
definitions here are very clear. A still birth is the
loss of a fetus or a baby through a natural,
spontaneous event. He added, the men who are doing this,
(10:00):
and they are all men, know the difference between stillbirth
and abortion.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So what he's saying there I'm hearing very clearly in
the way that you're reporting that quote as well, is
that it is only men from the Coalition who have
spoken about this. Are there any female members of the
Coalition that have had anything to say publicly? Whilst this
debate has been kind of heating up.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, female MPs in the Coalition have spoken about this,
but from what I could see, none of them were
saying anything in line with what Barnaby, Joyce and Andrew
Hasty are saying. They are all in support of it.
So Shadow Health Minister and Rustin has spoken about specifically
about the quotes that Barnaby Joyce and Andrew Hasty have given,
(10:43):
and she said that the coalition isn't support of it.
She told The Guardian, I think this bill is about
something completely different, and I'm very focused on making sure
that we keep our bipartisan commitment to Pria's mother.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Okay, So, Billy, final question from me on this. Do
you have any sense of what's next for this bill?
And also I'd love to get your take on whether
you think this will pass and become law.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
I think this will pass because we have heard from
both sides that they are in support of the underlying
intention of this bill. They've just asked for clarification on
one thing, and the government has now provided that clarification.
So I do believe that it will pass. In terms
of when it will pass, there is a sitting week
this week, but it might not pass this week. There
(11:28):
might still be more debate, but I'm confident that it
will eventually pass because when your starting point is bipartisan support,
I think that's a pretty good indication.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
It is a stunning comparison in the two different political
systems of what we're seeing in the conversation we've had
today and a US discussion which is notoriously polarizing and
takes decades to move through for the US population. Billy,
thank you so much for taking us through that. Thank you,
and that's all we've got time for on this morning's
episode of The Daily Oz. Thank you so much for
(11:59):
yours for another week of news from your favorite newsroom.
We're going to be back in the afternoon with some headlines.
Until then, have a great day.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Bye. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud
Arunda Bungelung Kalkuton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz
acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of
the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres s right island and nations. We pay our respects
(12:27):
to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the
Daily OS. It's Monday, the third of November. I'm Billie
with Simon's.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Sam Kauzlowski.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Last week, late term abortions came up as a point
of contention in Australia's parliament. It's all because of a
new proposed bill that would make it illegal for companies
to cancel paid parental leave if a baby dies or
is born still born. So what's the connection between that
and late term abortions and how common actually are late
(00:42):
term abortions. We'll tell you what you need to know
in today's.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Podcast, Billy. When you pitch this story, I was confused
because abortions don't usually come up as a point of
debate in the federal parliament here in Australia. It feels
like a very American conversation to be having.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It does. And the reason why it doesn't usually come
up in Australia's federal parliament, well, there are two reasons.
The first one is that abortion is not dealt with
at a national level in Australia. It's a state and
territory issue. So each state government is responsible for creating
and enforcing their own abortion law, which actually is also
(01:22):
the case in the US. But it's very very different
because the second reason is that abortion, unlike in America,
is now decriminalized in all states and territories in Australia,
so it's not something that is still debated very often,
either in Federal Parliament or in any parliament in Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So give me a sense, then we have this uniform
approach now in Australia across those different jurisdictions. Why has
this topic come up now?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Just to clarify, there are still some differences between the
second governments.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
But at a baseline criminalization.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, definitely. The reason has come up now is because
of a bill that labor so the government has introduced
in Federal Parliament. But that bill on the face of
it doesn't actually have anything to.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Do with abortion, and so what should I be thinking
about with this bill in terms of the subject area.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So it's about paid parental leave. So last month the
federal government introduced a bill to make it illegal for
companies to cancel paid parental leave if a baby is
stillborn or dies in infancy. It is called Baby Pria's Bill,
and it was named after a baby called Pria who
died at six weeks old and her mother's paid parental
(02:38):
leave was canceled by her employer. So it was off
the back of her experience that the Government heard about
it and implemented this bill, which is yet to become
law but is currently being debated in Parliament, which is
why we're talking about it now, just to give you
a little bit more context. Currently, government funded paid parental
(02:59):
life leave is not canceled if a baby dies, but
employer funded paid parental leave can be.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Give me a sense of how the general Australian paid
parental leave scheme works, because I think it's important to
understand what are the current rules in order to understand
where a potential reform would fit.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, so employees can get paid parental leave payments from
both their employer and the government after a birth or adoption,
and you can get both at the same time. So
the government one gives parents twenty four weeks of minimum
wage payments. Parents do need to complete an income test
to prove their eligibility for that one because it is
(03:38):
capped at a certain salary, and then separate to that
employers can also give their employees paid parental leave on
top of that, on top of that, which can vary
depending on companies policies and contracts. But that's more to
maintain the salary that you're at. The government one is
minimum wage. Now, what this law is doing that we're
(03:59):
talking about today, it is making it illegal for companies
to cancel their agreed upon paid print to leave if
the employee's baby is born, stillborn, or dies.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
And so this bill, baby Priya's bill. You said that
that's a government bill before, so we know that labor
is supporting it because they're the ones proposing it. Give
me a sense then of the coalition's position.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Well, when TDA reached out to the opposition when the
bill was first introduced, the opposition confirmed that they were
in favor of it. So Shadow Employment Minister Tim Wilson
told TDA, quote, when families experience the devastating loss of
an infant, clocking into work should be the last thing
on their mind. He continued, this is an important step
(04:44):
to ensure compassion and dignity are afforded to grieving parents.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So when approximately was this statement given to.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Us about less than a month ago, But a few
weeks ago, okay, And it's true still today that the
opposition broadly is in support of this bill. But there's
a few politicians who have brought up concerns about what
they call possible unintended consequences of this bill. And this
is where abortion.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Comes in, Okay, So the unintended consequences. Now, is this
space that we're going to talk about. Yes, it's not
necessarily I assume a lack of sympathy for the extremely
traumatic event, but another kind of angle to this.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, And so specifically this is about late term abortions. Now,
just to give you some context, there's not one exact
definition of when an abortion is considered late term, but
broadly speaking its abortions after the twentieth week of pregnancy.
So in relation to this bill, a few politicians part
of the coalition, including former Nationals leader Barnaby Joyce and
(05:49):
also Liberal MP Andrew Hasty, who we recently spoke about
because it was speculated that he possibly wanted to take
the leadership of the Liberal Party from Susan Ly. He
has since stepped down from the front bench, but that's
a whole other story. But it's him and Barnaby Joyce,
who have kind of led this or are definitely the
most high profile Coalition politicians who are speaking out against this.
(06:11):
They have said that they are concerned that this bill
could apply to those who have late term abortions, which
they argue should not happen.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Let's get really specific though about what exactly they said here.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, well we can be so specific that I can
even play you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Let's let them speak.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, okay, so this is a little bit of what
Barnaby Joyce said in Parliament.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I'd stand on the position that the day after a
child is born, no matter what medical conditions or impairments
that might be there, you have no right to interfere
in their life, and therefore the day before, we believe
it's the same. That is something that I hope I've
(06:51):
lived by and I think it's incredibly important for me
to state my position on this. There must be a
clarification on this issue. It must be clarified before we
come to a vote.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
He went on to say that he supports the bill,
but he just doesn't support it if this one thing
is not clarified. And I just want to reiterate they
are not debating whether or not late term abortions should
be legal or not. Again, that's not a thing for
Federal Parliament to decide. They are debating whether this specific
law should apply to those who have late term abortions.
(07:29):
Although I say they are debating it, it's not really
a debate because it's not actually As we'll get into
part of this bill.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I want to pick up that point because that's a
really interesting one. But before we get there, I think
a really important duty of the news in dealing with
stories like this is to actually ground ourselves in the numbers.
So can you give me a sense of how actually
common are late term abortions?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Well, I think the first thing to say is that
late term abortions are not legal in most parts of Australia,
pretty much all parts of Australia, unless it is in
rare circumstances that call for it, such as fetal abnormality
or if the mother's life is deemed to be at risk,
and typically you'll need approval from two doctors. So that's
(08:13):
the case in all states and territories except the Act,
where there is no gestational limit. But again, late term
abortions remain very very rare there, and it is still
in only very rare circumstances.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So statistically insignificant.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yes, And I think why that's worth clarifying as well
is because it's not accurate to say that a woman
in Australia can get an abortion the day before she's
due to give birth. That is not legal. In terms
of how common late term abortions are, again remembering we're
talking about post twenty weeks of pregnancy. I couldn't find
an exact number for how many nationally occur. It's quite
(08:50):
complicated because it is dealt with states and territories. But
to give you an example, in South Australia, they say
the proportion of terminations that happen after twenty weeks is
less than three percent.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Okay, So the argument being mounted or entertained by Barnaby
Joyce is that there is a group that is falling
into this category because of a late term abortion. We
now understand that that's a very small group of people.
What has Andrew Hasty said on this then.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
He's basically said the same thing. He said that he
agrees with the intention of this bill, but he does
not support it being used for any person who has
a late term abortion, and so he has asked the
government to clarify if this applies to late.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Term abortions and has the government done that.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
They have, although they've basically said there's no clarification needed
because they argue the bill is very clear in talking
about stillbirths, which it points out is very different to abortions.
So the Health Minister Mark Butler said on ABC the
definitions here are very clear. A still birth is the
loss of a fetus or a baby through a natural,
spontaneous event. He added, the men who are doing this,
(10:00):
and they are all men, know the difference between stillbirth
and abortion.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So what he's saying there I'm hearing very clearly in
the way that you're reporting that quote as well, is
that it is only men from the Coalition who have
spoken about this. Are there any female members of the
Coalition that have had anything to say publicly? Whilst this
debate has been kind of heating up.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, female MPs in the Coalition have spoken about this,
but from what I could see, none of them were
saying anything in line with what Barnaby, Joyce and Andrew
Hasty are saying. They are all in support of it.
So Shadow Health Minister and Rustin has spoken about specifically
about the quotes that Barnaby Joyce and Andrew Hasty have given,
(10:43):
and she said that the coalition isn't support of it.
She told The Guardian, I think this bill is about
something completely different, and I'm very focused on making sure
that we keep our bipartisan commitment to Pria's mother.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Okay, So, Billy, final question from me on this. Do
you have any sense of what's next for this bill?
And also I'd love to get your take on whether
you think this will pass and become law.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
I think this will pass because we have heard from
both sides that they are in support of the underlying
intention of this bill. They've just asked for clarification on
one thing, and the government has now provided that clarification.
So I do believe that it will pass. In terms
of when it will pass, there is a sitting week
this week, but it might not pass this week. There
(11:28):
might still be more debate, but I'm confident that it
will eventually pass because when your starting point is bipartisan support,
I think that's a pretty good indication.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
It is a stunning comparison in the two different political
systems of what we're seeing in the conversation we've had
today and a US discussion which is notoriously polarizing and
takes decades to move through for the US population. Billy,
thank you so much for taking us through that. Thank you,
and that's all we've got time for on this morning's
episode of The Daily Oz. Thank you so much for
(11:59):
yours for another week of news from your favorite newsroom.
We're going to be back in the afternoon with some headlines.
Until then, have a great day.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Bye. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud
Arunda Bungelung Kalkuton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz
acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of
the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres s right island and nations. We pay our respects
(12:27):
to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
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