Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Already and this is the Daily Art.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,
the eighteenth of August. I'm Billy Fitzimon's I'm Emma Gillespie.
Traffic to porn Hub in the UK has dropped by
(00:24):
forty seven percent since new age verification.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Laws were enforced.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
It's all because of the UK's Online Safety Act, which
requires adult sites to check the age of.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
All UK users. So how are they doing that?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Today? We are going to break down what these new
laws involve and their immediate impact on online behavior. That
first quick message from our sponsor, Billy. Let's start with
these new figures about changes in online traffic in the UK.
What exactly has happened to Pornhub?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, I mean before we even get into that, we
Emma did have a conversation off Mike about whether or
not we actually need to explain what porn hub is.
I think most people would be familiar with it. If
you're not, It is the most popular pornography website in
the world. I actually looked it up and it is
in the top twenty most visited websites in the world.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It's even above Netflix.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
There you go. I was gonna say it's like YouTube
for porn, but maybe it's like Netflix for porn.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, and I think the reason why it's actually so
popular is because it's free, or there is a free
version of it.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Now, the reason we are talking about it today is
because traffic to porn Hub in the UK dropped by
forty seven percent between the twenty fourth of July and
the eighth of August this year, So in less than
a month. That's according to data seen by the Financial
Times in the UK.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So a nearly fifty percent reduction in the number of
people or the number of visits to n Hub in.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Just a couple of weeks. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Now, the reason for that is because of new age
verification requirements that have come into effect in the UK.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Billy, this is so fascinating to me because obviously in
Australia we have our own age verification conversations going on.
So tell me about the state of play in the UK.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, So the new age verification requirements, they're all because
of a new law that came into effect in July
in the UK, which is called the Online Safety Act,
and that act requires all adult sites to check the
age of all UK users. So previously anyone was just
able to visit these sites regardless of your age. There
(02:43):
was kind of no checking system, just that anyone could
go there. But this piece of legislation put the onus
on the adult sites to ensure that only people above
eighteen are accessing and watching their material. And the purpose
of this, as I'm sure you can imagine, is to
protect young people from viewing any harmful content that could
(03:06):
be on these sides, and also making sure that they're
only accessing age appropriate content.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, well, you can't watch sexually explicit material if you're
under eighteen in a movie. We have all kinds of
classifications around that type of content elsewhere in media exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And this is all about making sure that there are
those checks and balances in place to make sure that
they can't view this material.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Now, this was actually.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Passed in the UK Parliament in twenty twenty three, okay,
but the age checking measures didn't come into effect until
July just passed.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Okay, So what does the age verification actually involve? How
does it work? Because again with such a conversation going
on here in Australia about how age verification would be
rolled out on social media. I think all of us
are really interested in this technology.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, this is the key question that everyone has. How
do you prove someone's age?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And a key part of this is that you can
no longer just tick a box. So if the website
says are you eighteen, you can't just say yes, I
am and then proceed to the website. You actually have
to verify your age. And I think what's interesting is,
you know, obviously visiting a website isn't like going to
(04:21):
a bottle store where someone is physically looking at your
idea and they're looking at you. It's a very different process.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
So what when you say verification that you have to
have your age verified in practice, what does that involve?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So Offcom, which is the UK's communications regulator and they
are the ones responsible for enforcing this law, they have
given seven different options for what websites could do to
ensure that they are checking the age. All right, I'll
go through them because I think they are so interesting.
The first one is facial age estimation. So this means
(04:57):
just your phone looking at you through a cam and
estimating how old they think you are based on that.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Wow. First of all, I mean part of me feels
like if I use that technology I would be offended. Yes,
it deemed me old enough. But what's the difference between
a seventeen year old face and an eighteen year old face?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Great question, and that is one that only technology could answer.
I don't quite have the answer, but yeah, obviously, you know,
I think we do have questions about that.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
So what are some of the other options?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So another one is open banking, so that involves giving
permission for the websites to access information from your bank account,
which would be on your phone, and that would be
able to tell them whether or not you are over eighteen.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
So giving porn harb your bank details exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
And another one which is quite similar to that, is
giving pornhub your credit card details, even if you're not
buying anything, because in the UK you need to be
over eighteen in order to have a credit card, so
if you give them those details, that means that you
are over eighteen.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So facial age estimation, these banking details, credit card age
checks not perfect options. Lots of privacy concerns probably around those.
So what else is on the list?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Other ones on the list is digital identity services. So
that's just like checking your digital IDs.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
That are on your phone.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Or Another one which is similar to that is photo
ID matching, So that's where you would provide a photo
of your physical ID and also provide a photo of
your face and they'd be able to check that. Other
ones is email based age estimation. Now what I could
gather from this is that you provide your email address
(06:42):
and then they, using technology, will look at your banking
or your utility providers and be able to look at
that and again estimate your age based on that information.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
This is wild. I had no idea that these were
the options, but there were so many ways to get
around age verification it's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And then the last one is mobile network operator age checks.
Now that would involve checking if your mobile phone number
has age filters applied to it.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Okay, So does that mean that some under eighteen year
olds have certain restrictions on their phone coverage?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Okay, let's talk about porn Hub though. We know that
they've seen a significant dip in the number of clicks
and use on their website. So which age verification technology
are they using?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Well, they are providing options, so they there are a
range of different options, which includes the ones that I've
just mentioned, so it's not just one of them. What
we do know is that they are now enforcing this
and they are asking all users in the UK to
now do one of those options. So it could be
uploading identity documents, or scanning your face with a camera,
(07:59):
or entering credit card details, any of them porn Harb
is using.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Okay, because I guess for the over eighteen users, if
you are porn Harb, you probably want to provide enough
options that it will be easy or fast enough for
those users to get through the verification process, I would imagine,
but also maintaining rigorous enough channels to be adhering to
the law.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, it's so interesting because I guess in the real world,
if you're forty, then the age verification rules don't really
apply to you. You don't actually really need to go
through those processes unless you are being checked for your
idea at the club, which is amazing for you. But
what's interesting about this is that it will impact every
(08:42):
single person. So you could be an eighty year old
person and you are still needing to prove your age
because of these laws.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Okay, now I want to talk a little bit more
about some of the privacy concerns we've touched on a
little bit. What are the specific issues that are being discussed.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that a lot of people do
have these privacy concerns. And what is actually interesting is
that Alo, which is porn Hub's parent company, they did
raise a concern about privacy before these laws came into effect.
So back in twenty twenty three, which again is when
these laws first passed parliament in the UK, they put
(09:21):
out a statement that said, any regulations that require hundreds
of thousands of adult sites to collect significant amounts of
highly sensitive personal information is putting user safety in jeopardy.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Okay, and that's the statement from the company that owns
porn Hub.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yes, that was two years ago, so I presume now
they would be saying that all of the data is protected,
but that was one of their key concerns when this
legislation was first passed. Now, obviously it has now come
into effect, and I mentioned Offcom before, which is the
UK's communications regulator, and they have really assured users that
(10:00):
data protection is of course already regulated and enforced in
the UK, so this now isn't a new issue that
they're needing to deal with.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
It is already regulated.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
They also said that proving someone's age is not a
new thing, like I said before, so people obviously do
this all the time in the offline world, and they're
really encouraging people to just see it as the same
thing here.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
All right, So we know where a low the pornhub
parent company was on this issue a few years ago.
Have we heard from them or any porn hub spokespeople
more recently.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, porn Hub. A spokesperson for porn Hub did put
out a statement and they basically said that this significant
drop in traffic is the cost of compliance.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Was basically what they said.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Their direct quote is, we've seen in many jurisdictions around
the world there is often a drop in traffic for
compliance sites and an increase in traffic for non compliance sites.
So that was in a statement to the Financial Times.
I do think it's worth noting that in the UK VPNs,
which basically changes what country your computer thinks you're in,
(11:10):
they have drastically increased in traffic at the exact same
time that porn Hub's traffic has dropped.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Okay, so workarounds that people are negotiating. I think that's
a really interesting statement from porn Hub, this idea that
they are complying with the legislation, but that platforms or
websites that aren't complying will, at least in the short
term kind of benefit from a band like this.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, I think, and that's for websites that are not
as big as porn Hub. Yeah, and so perhaps aren't
under as much pressure to comply.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
This forty seven percent drop in traffic to Pornhub, though,
that is a pretty staggering figure. Do we know if
all of those users are underage users?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, I don't. We don't know, but I think that
you can presume. No, it probably isn't all minors that
now make up that forty seven percent. So many people
are saying that this drop suggests that a lot of
users just aren't willing to go through the age verification process.
Either it's just too much time, too much effort, or
(12:17):
they could also be concerned.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
About their privacy, like we talked about before.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, it's so interesting, Billy, and I wonder if the
raft of age verification options are something that we'll see
rolled out here in Australia. There's been a little bit
of contention around what technology will be the best technology
to enforce our social media ban.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yes, so for anyone who missed it or who wants
a reminder. In Australia last year we introduced this social
media ban. It passed parliament last year, but it comes
into effect at the end of this year. What's interesting
is so that's for under sixteens, that's for social media sites,
that's not for porn sites, and so it is a
little bit different, but is similar between these two pieces
(13:01):
of legislation is that the onus is on the companies. Yeah,
now we don't yet know how the companies will enforce
these age verifications. So I mentioned the measures that are
happening in the UK, but we don't know if that
will be the exact same in Australia.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
There are age verification trials that are ongoing at the
moment to figure that out. But there were some reports
a couple of months ago about flaws in some of
the technologies that were being trialed. I remember an ABC
report that had found some technologies had gotten the ages
wrong of users, that teenage users were passing as twenty
five year olds. So clearly it's not perfect. But this
(13:41):
is an evolving technology and a space that is going
to see a lot of investment and interest in the future.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
It's clear that there is a lot of movement in
this area of trying to protect young people from potentially
harmful content online.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Absolutely, Billy, thank you so much. Thank for bringing us
such an interesting story and unpacking it in such a
fascinating way. That's all for today's deep Dive. Thank you
so much for listening. We will be back a little
bit later on with your evening news headlines, but until then,
have a great Monday.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to
all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
both past and present.