December 1, 2023 • 26 mins
Join Sally as she talks with ballet master Raymond Lukens, the driving force behind the American Ballet Theater National Training Curriculum. This episode promises to leave you feeling inspired and enlightened.
Have an idea or suggestion for a future podcast? Call our voicemail:703-981-0718 or email sally at sallyballet@hotmail.com. We want to hear what you want to hear.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the second season of the Dance Studio
podcast.
This podcast is for dancers,teachers, dance moms and
especially dance studio owners.
In the first season, we coveredtopics like scoliosis, eating
disorders and point shoereadiness, along with several
episodes on different dancecareer paths and awesome dance
(00:21):
programs for you and your dancestudents.
In the second season, you cancount on hearing from Tony Award
winners, american BalletTheater teachers, competition
judges and so much more.
The Dance Studio podcast fansare loving the information this
podcast provides.
Take it from season one guest,jennifer Miletto.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
My name is Jen Miletto and I am a former
student of Sally's, now dancingprofessionally at Disney.
As well as teaching dance as acollege professor, Sally has
been my mentor through my entiredance career.
What I love about her and herpodcast is that she is not only
willing to be completely openabout everything that she has
learned in her career, but sheis also so curious about what
(01:04):
others have learned in theirunique experience, and she wants
to share all of it with herlisteners.
There is a reason why I havestuck with Sally all of these
years she is committed toadvocating for the success of
the dance community.
If you are a studio owner,teacher, dancer or aspiring to
be any of those things, do notmiss this podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Welcome Dance Studio owners.
Today, it is a great honor forme to introduce ballet master
Raymond Lukens of the AmericanBallet Theater to you.
Welcome, raymond.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere Today.
We'll be talking about theAmerican Ballet Theater National
Training Curriculum, andthere's nobody better to discuss
(01:48):
this with us than the creatorhimself.
Raymond, tell us a little bitabout how you got started
dancing and how you transitionedinto teaching.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I started dancing quite late.
I was doing acrobatics firstand acrobatics teacher said I
had to take ballet and I endedup going into the School of
American Ballet Theater when Iwas 15 years old.
Then I studied a lot withRichard Thomas and Barbara
Phallis.
After a couple of years in theschool I was offered a position
(02:23):
as a trainee for the HarknessBallet.
From there I went to a companyformed in Buffalo by Kathleen
Crofton and we toured Europewith Nureyev with that company.
I got job offers in Europe andtouring all over.
I lived in Belgium and Germanyand France and then finally in
(02:44):
Italy.
In Italy a woman called BrendaHamlin.
She was a Chiquetti teacher inFlorence.
She saw me perform and she saidI want you to teach.
I said I don't teach, I don'tknow anything about teaching.
She said I insist, I want youto teach.
I went and started teaching forher and I fell in love with
(03:08):
teaching.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Right away.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yes, after the first class I loved her first sight, I
could say she gave me a groupof very, very talented students.
There were five girls and twoboys, and all but one became
professional dancers, which wasquite amazing in a private
school.
Then I was asked to teach youngpeople and I said I don't know
(03:29):
what to do.
She said well, I'll teach youthe Chiquetti program and then
you can become certified.
She taught me the elementaryand intermediate syllabus in a
week.
I was still in shape so I coulddo everything quite easily.
Then I went to London and gotexamined by Laura Wilson.
(03:52):
Then I got my first Chiquettiqualification and within the arc
of three years I got myfellowship.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
How young were the students that she wanted you to
teach?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
that when you said, oh, I don't know what to do with
them.
The youngest ones were abouteight 10 years old, but the
first group they were theyoungest was a 15-year-old,
exceedingly talented young womannamed Nicoleta Santoro.
She's now the director of theHamlin School in Florence.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Do you have a level or an age group that you prefer
teaching?
Do you prefer teaching teachers, students or certain age groups
, or do you just love teachingeverybody?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, I've taught everything from five-year-olds
right up through professionaldancers.
I've taught the company at ABTin Boston and several of the
companies, but I think that myfavorite age group is between 15
and 18 years old.
Because company dancers youhave to consider their work day.
(04:52):
They don't want to, not they'renecessarily to improve their
technique.
They're there to maintain theirtechnique and to be prepared
for their day's work.
It's when they have six hoursof rehearsals, it's a lot.
So you don't want to kill themin the class, to want them to be
on their legs and feel warm andcomfortable and ready to go,
(05:14):
while the younger groups theydon't have those hours of
rehearsal.
So the work that we do is a lotharder on them so that they
Actually get stronger andstronger.
And the company dances, ofcourse the repertoire Maintains
them strong because when they'rerehearsing all those hours and
they're doing very difficultballets, that's already
Maintaining or increasing theirtechnique.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So how did the national training curriculum
come about?
Was there a need?
Was something lacking?
Who's idea was it and what wasthe process?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It's a long process.
Basically it was like threeparallel things happening at the
same time.
When Franko and I took over theschool in Florence bring the
Hamelin school, we decided thatFranco was trained in the Paris
opera system and I was trainedin New York, so it's the
whatever system in New York City, and through our experiences in
dancing in the theaters.
(06:07):
So we had a lot of Cubanteachers, russian teachers,
english teachers and thenLearning the Chiquetti work.
A lot of it came together andwe thought that Chiquetti
examinations they were a littlebit too binding in the sense
that the children didn't get toexperience other types of ways
of moving, and so we startedCreating our own program For the
(06:31):
school and then the resultswere that the Chiquetti students
in our school were Doing really, really well.
In fact, in I think, 15 years wedirected the school, we
produced 53 professional dancersyou know little private school
and from their.
Kirk Peterson saw the school,came to visit and Kirk and I had
(06:55):
been trainees at Harknesstogether and he was shocked at
the level of the school.
Then they gave him thedirectorship, the Hartford
Ballet, and he asked me do youstill have that memory that you
have when you were a dancer?
Do you always learnedeverybody's parts and I said,
yeah, I do.
He said, well, I would like youto be my ballet master and I
would like Franco to come andteach at the school.
(07:16):
So Franco said let's do it,let's have an American
experience.
And the Hartford Ballet hadalready a system in place and we
had meetings to alter thesystem or update it, let's say,
and because of we had theprivate school situation,
reality that we knew what it wasworking with ordinary children
(07:38):
too.
We said the vast majority ofstudents are not going to be
professional dancers.
We have to do something that isgoing to serve all of them.
So they agreed and we had thegreat Russian teacher, great
ballerina, to allow.
See Panko, who was trained byBarbara Garnova herself and she
had worked with us in Florenceand then also in Hartford.
(07:59):
Kirk, with his vast experienceas a principal dancer with ABT,
and Maria Yuskevich, thedaughter of the great Ebro
Yuskevich, inet Lin, the founderof the Hartford Ballet, and
Peggy Lyman, who was a principaldancer with Martha Graham
Company.
So we started working oncreating a new program and With
(08:20):
that program we went to Bostonand Boston Ballet asked us to
develop a program for them also,and and we started that.
And then Rachel Moore, who wasthe director of the school,
became executive director of ABTand by chance, abt had had an
(08:40):
artistic retreat in which theyhad were discussing how do we
deal with training dancers.
So the dancers are happy andhealthy people, and so Kirk
Peterson, who was part of the atthat time ballet master for ABT
, said we have to recruit FrankConreiman for this.
(09:03):
So we started and basicallywhat had started in our school
in Florence then slowlydeveloped into what became the
ABT curriculum.
There were a lot of peoplearound us.
Kevin McKenzie was fantastic insupporting us and that was
basically how it started.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
When the goal is to create happy, healthy dancers
who are well-trained.
You've got a great goal infront of you.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Well, the priority is always the well-being of the
person.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yes, and you've really done that.
In my opinion, with that, thenational training curriculum, it
really takes care of thestudent and I appreciate that.
Do you wanna talk about the NYUprogram?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Because Hartford was tied to the Hart School in
Hartford.
So there was always thatuniversity connection and I had
written the syllabi for the HartSchool program.
And then when we went to Boston, boston had a connection with
Harvard and Franco went andtaught us a guest teacher at
(10:06):
Harvard University.
And then with Alvin Ailey wehad the Fordham University
connection.
When we went to ABT we said itjust makes sense to have a
connection with an importantuniversity because that actually
renders the whole thing morelegitimate and we have this
(10:29):
backing of academia.
So why don't we propose amaster's degree program in ABT
ballet pedagogy?
And we had the meeting with NYU.
Nyu then said to me Franco andme to write a syllabus.
Franco said no, I'm too busywith the school.
You write the syllabus.
So I wrote the syllabus thinkingthat it would be gonna take two
(10:51):
years for it to be approved.
So I wrote the syllabus aboutfive weeks afterwards we
received that the university hadapproved it, but we had to get
the state of New York's approval.
Luckily our head of educationand training at ABT at the time
was Mary Jo Ciesel and she saidwell, when you're writing the
syllabus, let me call somebodywho was in the committee in the
(11:15):
New York state to make sure thatall the points are covered, and
that was fantastic.
So I had these meetings withthis wonderful person and in
December they said it's beenapproved by the state and the
university said we're scramblingnow because it usually takes a
year and they approved it inthree months.
So you've covered all the basesand we have to start in, you
(11:40):
know, just in a few months toget the program going.
So that's how it started.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
My student, Lillian Chong, just graduated from the
program.
She's very happy.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I examined her.
I remember.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
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(12:18):
about your free trial today.
So what advice would you give ayoung dancer today who's hoping
to become a professional?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
There are several things to be considered.
The professional has to look athimself in a very honest way.
So what is my talent?
What do I have?
Do I have the right kind ofbody?
Do I have the right kind ofnatural coordination?
Do I have that's something thatnobody can teach that talent?
(12:49):
I think that if you don't havethe right body and if you do not
have the right coordination,but you have the intellect and
you have that something specialinside that can be taught, you
should study anyway, because youcould become a wonderful
teacher, you could become awonderful choreographer, you
could become associated in adance field in many, many, many
(13:10):
different ways.
And a lot of our people in theoffice at ABT are people who
want to be dancers and just theydidn't have all those
prerequisites but they stilllove it and they're involved
with the National Company ofAmerica, so it's very gratifying
for them.
Our stage manager in Boston shewanted to be a dancer but her
(13:31):
coordination was not right forit and she's now the principal
stage manager of the BostonBallet.
So there's lots ofopportunities.
Two of the greatest teachers inthe United States that we know
of, who produce hundreds ofdancers, have become even famous
.
Principal dancers were neverdancers.
And I'm thinking of our dearfriend Susan Brooker, who's now
(13:56):
the director of the ABT schoolin California, that William and
Jake Gillespie School at theSiegfriedsturm Center.
She was never a dancer and shehas been an incredible teacher
who produced so many people andteachers and dancers throughout
the world.
So you should go with it becauseyou love it and you should not
(14:19):
blame yourself or anybody if youdon't have the body to do it or
you don't have the naturalcoordination to do it.
To do many pirouettes, that's anatural gift.
There are lots of things thatare natural gifts and you can't
really change that.
That's geneticallypre-programmed in our bodies.
But if you have the intellectand you have the soul of the
(14:40):
dancer, you could become ofgreat value for the art form.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I love that advice.
What advice would you givedance teachers, dance studio
owners all over the world?
What would you hope that theyare conveying to their students?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, first of all, they have to have a premise and
that is that their priority hasto always be the wellbeing of
their students.
That is number one.
They have to be honest with thestudents, tell them exactly
what they see and what they feel.
And sometimes there's nothingmore gratifying than when you've
(15:19):
given advice to the student,where you say, well, you know
you may not make it, et cetera,and then they prove you wrong.
There's no greater source ofjoy than that.
When you've been proven wrongthat way, that's a good thing.
So never to be afraid to behonest, but always to be caring,
to show that you care and thatthey understand that you are
(15:39):
there for them.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Very good advice.
This podcast I started becauseI want to give all dance
teachers everywhere especiallyyoung dance teachers who might
be intimidated by things likethe American Ballet Theater
Teacher Training Curriculum awindow into how it works and how
(16:02):
not to be intimidated by it.
So can you talk about a personwho's, let's just say, 23 and
lives in Wisconsin and has donea lot of ballet but really
doesn't know how to go abouthaving a big ballet program at
their studio?
Why shouldn't they beintimidated to get the training
(16:23):
that ABT offers?
Speaker 3 (16:25):
There's reason to be intimidated and there's reason
not to be intimidated.
If you're honest with yourselfas a teacher and you do have the
training and you do have acertain technical ability, then
you shouldn't be intimidated atall.
If you are basically juststarting and your own technique
is I don't know, let's say ofChiquetti Grade II, for example,
(16:48):
then it is intimidating becausethe course is so intense and so
short, there's so muchinformation given in such a
short time and that maybe youshould go back and make sure
that your own training is moresolid before you attempt to do
(17:08):
it.
Why you shouldn't beintimidated if you have a solid
training?
That's kind of difficultbecause people have different
personalities, like those peoplethat have stage fright.
We've known fantastic dancersin the studio and they get on
stage.
They fall apart.
So it's kind of an individualthing.
But what we're offering that ismaybe a little different is
(17:31):
that we're offering a way ofthinking for yourself on how to
correct the dancer, how toidentify the faults and identify
what's causing that fault andto correct them with a plan B.
That is another exercise,without having to repeat with
words, a thousand correct, thesame correction and then
(17:54):
teachers start sounding likeadults due to Charlie Brown, you
know they wah, wah, wah, sothat the students aren't here
anymore.
So we want to help teachersbecome more effective in their
approach to teaching and we'renot stylistically bound to any
system.
And that was done on purpose,because ABT needed dancers to be
(18:17):
able to jump from Tudor toPetipa, to Ashton, to Twilithar,
to Martha Graham.
So we had to be stylisticallyneutral but use the information
that we got from the greatmasters of the past the old
French school, the Chiquettischool, the Vaganova school, the
(18:38):
Bournembeal school.
So we were taking informationthat's coming from those great
masters who, by the way, admiredeach other.
We know that Chiquetti was agreat admirer of Bournembeal
predecessor and of Blasie's.
We know that Vaganova was agreat admirer of Johansson, who
was the Danish teacher in StPetersburg, and of Chiquetti.
(19:02):
So there was no sense ofrivalry, there was a sense of
learning from each other, and sowe took that idea to put it
into the program.
So not to be intimidated, okay,so to answer that question, I
would lie if I said it's notintimidating.
It is intimidating.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
But I like what you said about getting more
technical training.
For me I had done all the waythrough the advanced Chiquetti
program and so when I got to theAmerican Ballet Theater
training program I was verycomfortable there.
So what kinds of training wouldyou recommend somebody do,
maybe before they come, ifthey're not up to snuff
(19:42):
technically?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
If people do not have training and of course they
have to have had, like you did,go through a program.
We recommend any program thatis good for them.
If they are near a Chiquettiteacher, it's very good to go
through that program.
If they're near an RAD teacher,that's very good if they go
through that program.
If they follow any kind of sortof systematized program with a
(20:08):
school, if they have a goodFaganova teacher, if they have,
it doesn't really matter whichsystem they do, as long as that
they have a solid technical base.
Now we've had some problems withsome people who did dancing as
a hobby and never reallyachieved a very high level.
Then they retire from whateverjob they did and says oh, I want
(20:30):
to do this because now I wantto be a teacher.
That's not really the rightperson to try and do this
because it is just overwhelming.
Point Magazine or DanceMagazine one of the editors
decided to do the program.
She was a dancer and she had ahigh level and she wrote a whole
article on it.
I don't know if you saw this.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I didn't see it.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Of her experience doing and she said my experience
it was like drinking water outof a fire hose, because the
amount of information is sooverwhelming.
So if you don't have enoughtraining it becomes really,
really difficult.
But if you do, I thinkeverybody who's done it, who has
(21:09):
the training, they've enjoyedit.
They keep coming back to auditand watch it and see other
people go through it.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I loved it.
It was such a great program andI did come back to audit and I
can't say enough good thingsabout it.
It was fantastic and I had thetotal joy of having you and
Franco as teachers and othergreat teachers and I just loved
every single minute of it.
It's a gift that you've givenall dance teachers everywhere
(21:41):
and I appreciate it.
This episode is brought to youby Mix Tape Studios, a
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What didn't I ask you that youwould like dance teachers to
(22:06):
know about the curriculum, orabout ABT, or about you?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Right now ABT is asking us to do a lot of work.
So we've been teaching andtraveling around the world
teaching the curriculum.
This coming year we have about10 programs coming which will be
done around the world.
We are quite busy.
If teachers want a master class, they usually is better if they
go through ABT because it's amaster calendar and I just don't
(22:31):
want to book myself and theysay, oops, I can't do it.
But if they do like to do that,they can always send an email
and then we could look at it andhope that we could accommodate.
But we are really really busy.
Both Franco and I are crazybusy.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Good they're using you as much as they can.
I'm glad you're willing to beso generous with your knowledge
and you're such kind teachers.
I'm glad that you're still outthere doing it.
How can people follow you ifthey want to just see what
you're up to?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
They can follow me on Facebook or through the ABT
website.
You can see what's going on.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
My final question that I ask every dance teacher
is what is your number oneteacher tip trick that you keep
in your back pocket, that youjust couldn't live without One?
You can do three.
You can do as many as you want.
We'll take as much sharing asyou want to give us.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
The first tip is not to assume that you know
everything so that when you givea correction, make sure that
it's just a diagnosis, like whenyou go to the doctor you get a
second opinion, you have to goto another doctor so you may
have misdiagnosed.
So it's just stay humble thatway.
That's a very important tip.
Another one is not to assumethat students are stupid.
(23:51):
Sometimes their body-brainconnection is not set up to
really understand their body,understand what you're telling
them verbally.
They have to retrain a muscle.
Memory is creating thatautomatic response of the
students.
And that's why avoidingthinking they are stupid because
I don't believe that anybodygoes in to do anything to fail.
(24:14):
I don't think you're going tosign into medical school to be
the worst doctor in the world.
So any person tries to dosomething, you have to believe
that they want to do it as wellas they can.
The third thing is to always bekind.
When I was a student we weretaught that you had to be put
down so you build yourself up.
(24:35):
And Monica Mason, who directedthe Royal Ballet School for so
long and she was trained inSouth Africa and she was a
little girl, she said I'm goingto quit dancing.
I can't do this.
And then she found her mother,found this teacher and Ruth
Ingolstein.
I'll never forget this lady.
(24:55):
And Monica said Ruth was thekindest person in the world and
I am where I am because she wasso kind.
Then she became, of course, astar of the Royal Ballet Company
and then director of the RoyalBallet Company.
You see, kindness really doespay off.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
If we all did everything from a place of
kindness, the whole world wouldbe a much better place.
I think that's the best placeto leave this podcast.
Raymond, you have been so kindto do this podcast and your
generosity with your time.
But taking your classes overthe years, I've been so
impressed with your kindnessover and over again.
(25:32):
So you learned that lesson andI hope that we can all learn
that lesson from you.
So thank you so much for doingthis today.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Thank, you for having me.
It's an honor.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Thanks for listening and don't forget.
Please rate and review thisshow and share it with a friend.
Welcome to the second season of the Dance Studio
podcast.
This podcast is for dancers,teachers, dance moms and
especially dance studio owners.
In the first season, we coveredtopics like scoliosis, eating
disorders and point shoereadiness, along with several
episodes on different dancecareer paths and awesome dance
(00:21):
programs for you and your dancestudents.
In the second season, you cancount on hearing from Tony Award
winners, american BalletTheater teachers, competition
judges and so much more.
The Dance Studio podcast fansare loving the information this
podcast provides.
Take it from season one guest,jennifer Miletto.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
My name is Jen Miletto and I am a former
student of Sally's, now dancingprofessionally at Disney.
As well as teaching dance as acollege professor, Sally has
been my mentor through my entiredance career.
What I love about her and herpodcast is that she is not only
willing to be completely openabout everything that she has
learned in her career, but sheis also so curious about what
(01:04):
others have learned in theirunique experience, and she wants
to share all of it with herlisteners.
There is a reason why I havestuck with Sally all of these
years she is committed toadvocating for the success of
the dance community.
If you are a studio owner,teacher, dancer or aspiring to
be any of those things, do notmiss this podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Welcome Dance Studio owners.
Today, it is a great honor forme to introduce ballet master
Raymond Lukens of the AmericanBallet Theater to you.
Welcome, raymond.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere Today.
We'll be talking about theAmerican Ballet Theater National
Training Curriculum, andthere's nobody better to discuss
(01:48):
this with us than the creatorhimself.
Raymond, tell us a little bitabout how you got started
dancing and how you transitionedinto teaching.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I started dancing quite late.
I was doing acrobatics firstand acrobatics teacher said I
had to take ballet and I endedup going into the School of
American Ballet Theater when Iwas 15 years old.
Then I studied a lot withRichard Thomas and Barbara
Phallis.
After a couple of years in theschool I was offered a position
(02:23):
as a trainee for the HarknessBallet.
From there I went to a companyformed in Buffalo by Kathleen
Crofton and we toured Europewith Nureyev with that company.
I got job offers in Europe andtouring all over.
I lived in Belgium and Germanyand France and then finally in
(02:44):
Italy.
In Italy a woman called BrendaHamlin.
She was a Chiquetti teacher inFlorence.
She saw me perform and she saidI want you to teach.
I said I don't teach, I don'tknow anything about teaching.
She said I insist, I want youto teach.
I went and started teaching forher and I fell in love with
(03:08):
teaching.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Right away.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yes, after the first class I loved her first sight, I
could say she gave me a groupof very, very talented students.
There were five girls and twoboys, and all but one became
professional dancers, which wasquite amazing in a private
school.
Then I was asked to teach youngpeople and I said I don't know
(03:29):
what to do.
She said well, I'll teach youthe Chiquetti program and then
you can become certified.
She taught me the elementaryand intermediate syllabus in a
week.
I was still in shape so I coulddo everything quite easily.
Then I went to London and gotexamined by Laura Wilson.
(03:52):
Then I got my first Chiquettiqualification and within the arc
of three years I got myfellowship.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
How young were the students that she wanted you to
teach?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
that when you said, oh, I don't know what to do with
them.
The youngest ones were abouteight 10 years old, but the
first group they were theyoungest was a 15-year-old,
exceedingly talented young womannamed Nicoleta Santoro.
She's now the director of theHamlin School in Florence.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Do you have a level or an age group that you prefer
teaching?
Do you prefer teaching teachers, students or certain age groups
, or do you just love teachingeverybody?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, I've taught everything from five-year-olds
right up through professionaldancers.
I've taught the company at ABTin Boston and several of the
companies, but I think that myfavorite age group is between 15
and 18 years old.
Because company dancers youhave to consider their work day.
(04:52):
They don't want to, not they'renecessarily to improve their
technique.
They're there to maintain theirtechnique and to be prepared
for their day's work.
It's when they have six hoursof rehearsals, it's a lot.
So you don't want to kill themin the class, to want them to be
on their legs and feel warm andcomfortable and ready to go,
(05:14):
while the younger groups theydon't have those hours of
rehearsal.
So the work that we do is a lotharder on them so that they
Actually get stronger andstronger.
And the company dances, ofcourse the repertoire Maintains
them strong because when they'rerehearsing all those hours and
they're doing very difficultballets, that's already
Maintaining or increasing theirtechnique.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So how did the national training curriculum
come about?
Was there a need?
Was something lacking?
Who's idea was it and what wasthe process?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It's a long process.
Basically it was like threeparallel things happening at the
same time.
When Franko and I took over theschool in Florence bring the
Hamelin school, we decided thatFranco was trained in the Paris
opera system and I was trainedin New York, so it's the
whatever system in New York City, and through our experiences in
dancing in the theaters.
(06:07):
So we had a lot of Cubanteachers, russian teachers,
english teachers and thenLearning the Chiquetti work.
A lot of it came together andwe thought that Chiquetti
examinations they were a littlebit too binding in the sense
that the children didn't get toexperience other types of ways
of moving, and so we startedCreating our own program For the
(06:31):
school and then the resultswere that the Chiquetti students
in our school were Doing really, really well.
In fact, in I think, 15 years wedirected the school, we
produced 53 professional dancersyou know little private school
and from their.
Kirk Peterson saw the school,came to visit and Kirk and I had
(06:55):
been trainees at Harknesstogether and he was shocked at
the level of the school.
Then they gave him thedirectorship, the Hartford
Ballet, and he asked me do youstill have that memory that you
have when you were a dancer?
Do you always learnedeverybody's parts and I said,
yeah, I do.
He said, well, I would like youto be my ballet master and I
would like Franco to come andteach at the school.
(07:16):
So Franco said let's do it,let's have an American
experience.
And the Hartford Ballet hadalready a system in place and we
had meetings to alter thesystem or update it, let's say,
and because of we had theprivate school situation,
reality that we knew what it wasworking with ordinary children
(07:38):
too.
We said the vast majority ofstudents are not going to be
professional dancers.
We have to do something that isgoing to serve all of them.
So they agreed and we had thegreat Russian teacher, great
ballerina, to allow.
See Panko, who was trained byBarbara Garnova herself and she
had worked with us in Florenceand then also in Hartford.
(07:59):
Kirk, with his vast experienceas a principal dancer with ABT,
and Maria Yuskevich, thedaughter of the great Ebro
Yuskevich, inet Lin, the founderof the Hartford Ballet, and
Peggy Lyman, who was a principaldancer with Martha Graham
Company.
So we started working oncreating a new program and With
(08:20):
that program we went to Bostonand Boston Ballet asked us to
develop a program for them also,and and we started that.
And then Rachel Moore, who wasthe director of the school,
became executive director of ABTand by chance, abt had had an
(08:40):
artistic retreat in which theyhad were discussing how do we
deal with training dancers.
So the dancers are happy andhealthy people, and so Kirk
Peterson, who was part of the atthat time ballet master for ABT
, said we have to recruit FrankConreiman for this.
(09:03):
So we started and basicallywhat had started in our school
in Florence then slowlydeveloped into what became the
ABT curriculum.
There were a lot of peoplearound us.
Kevin McKenzie was fantastic insupporting us and that was
basically how it started.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
When the goal is to create happy, healthy dancers
who are well-trained.
You've got a great goal infront of you.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Well, the priority is always the well-being of the
person.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yes, and you've really done that.
In my opinion, with that, thenational training curriculum, it
really takes care of thestudent and I appreciate that.
Do you wanna talk about the NYUprogram?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Because Hartford was tied to the Hart School in
Hartford.
So there was always thatuniversity connection and I had
written the syllabi for the HartSchool program.
And then when we went to Boston, boston had a connection with
Harvard and Franco went andtaught us a guest teacher at
(10:06):
Harvard University.
And then with Alvin Ailey wehad the Fordham University
connection.
When we went to ABT we said itjust makes sense to have a
connection with an importantuniversity because that actually
renders the whole thing morelegitimate and we have this
(10:29):
backing of academia.
So why don't we propose amaster's degree program in ABT
ballet pedagogy?
And we had the meeting with NYU.
Nyu then said to me Franco andme to write a syllabus.
Franco said no, I'm too busywith the school.
You write the syllabus.
So I wrote the syllabus thinkingthat it would be gonna take two
(10:51):
years for it to be approved.
So I wrote the syllabus aboutfive weeks afterwards we
received that the university hadapproved it, but we had to get
the state of New York's approval.
Luckily our head of educationand training at ABT at the time
was Mary Jo Ciesel and she saidwell, when you're writing the
syllabus, let me call somebodywho was in the committee in the
(11:15):
New York state to make sure thatall the points are covered, and
that was fantastic.
So I had these meetings withthis wonderful person and in
December they said it's beenapproved by the state and the
university said we're scramblingnow because it usually takes a
year and they approved it inthree months.
So you've covered all the basesand we have to start in, you
(11:40):
know, just in a few months toget the program going.
So that's how it started.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
My student, Lillian Chong, just graduated from the
program.
She's very happy.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I examined her.
I remember.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
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(12:18):
about your free trial today.
So what advice would you give ayoung dancer today who's hoping
to become a professional?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
There are several things to be considered.
The professional has to look athimself in a very honest way.
So what is my talent?
What do I have?
Do I have the right kind ofbody?
Do I have the right kind ofnatural coordination?
Do I have that's something thatnobody can teach that talent?
(12:49):
I think that if you don't havethe right body and if you do not
have the right coordination,but you have the intellect and
you have that something specialinside that can be taught, you
should study anyway, because youcould become a wonderful
teacher, you could become awonderful choreographer, you
could become associated in adance field in many, many, many
(13:10):
different ways.
And a lot of our people in theoffice at ABT are people who
want to be dancers and just theydidn't have all those
prerequisites but they stilllove it and they're involved
with the National Company ofAmerica, so it's very gratifying
for them.
Our stage manager in Boston shewanted to be a dancer but her
(13:31):
coordination was not right forit and she's now the principal
stage manager of the BostonBallet.
So there's lots ofopportunities.
Two of the greatest teachers inthe United States that we know
of, who produce hundreds ofdancers, have become even famous
.
Principal dancers were neverdancers.
And I'm thinking of our dearfriend Susan Brooker, who's now
(13:56):
the director of the ABT schoolin California, that William and
Jake Gillespie School at theSiegfriedsturm Center.
She was never a dancer and shehas been an incredible teacher
who produced so many people andteachers and dancers throughout
the world.
So you should go with it becauseyou love it and you should not
(14:19):
blame yourself or anybody if youdon't have the body to do it or
you don't have the naturalcoordination to do it.
To do many pirouettes, that's anatural gift.
There are lots of things thatare natural gifts and you can't
really change that.
That's geneticallypre-programmed in our bodies.
But if you have the intellectand you have the soul of the
(14:40):
dancer, you could become ofgreat value for the art form.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I love that advice.
What advice would you givedance teachers, dance studio
owners all over the world?
What would you hope that theyare conveying to their students?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, first of all, they have to have a premise and
that is that their priority hasto always be the wellbeing of
their students.
That is number one.
They have to be honest with thestudents, tell them exactly
what they see and what they feel.
And sometimes there's nothingmore gratifying than when you've
(15:19):
given advice to the student,where you say, well, you know
you may not make it, et cetera,and then they prove you wrong.
There's no greater source ofjoy than that.
When you've been proven wrongthat way, that's a good thing.
So never to be afraid to behonest, but always to be caring,
to show that you care and thatthey understand that you are
(15:39):
there for them.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Very good advice.
This podcast I started becauseI want to give all dance
teachers everywhere especiallyyoung dance teachers who might
be intimidated by things likethe American Ballet Theater
Teacher Training Curriculum awindow into how it works and how
(16:02):
not to be intimidated by it.
So can you talk about a personwho's, let's just say, 23 and
lives in Wisconsin and has donea lot of ballet but really
doesn't know how to go abouthaving a big ballet program at
their studio?
Why shouldn't they beintimidated to get the training
(16:23):
that ABT offers?
Speaker 3 (16:25):
There's reason to be intimidated and there's reason
not to be intimidated.
If you're honest with yourselfas a teacher and you do have the
training and you do have acertain technical ability, then
you shouldn't be intimidated atall.
If you are basically juststarting and your own technique
is I don't know, let's say ofChiquetti Grade II, for example,
(16:48):
then it is intimidating becausethe course is so intense and so
short, there's so muchinformation given in such a
short time and that maybe youshould go back and make sure
that your own training is moresolid before you attempt to do
(17:08):
it.
Why you shouldn't beintimidated if you have a solid
training?
That's kind of difficultbecause people have different
personalities, like those peoplethat have stage fright.
We've known fantastic dancersin the studio and they get on
stage.
They fall apart.
So it's kind of an individualthing.
But what we're offering that ismaybe a little different is
(17:31):
that we're offering a way ofthinking for yourself on how to
correct the dancer, how toidentify the faults and identify
what's causing that fault andto correct them with a plan B.
That is another exercise,without having to repeat with
words, a thousand correct, thesame correction and then
(17:54):
teachers start sounding likeadults due to Charlie Brown, you
know they wah, wah, wah, sothat the students aren't here
anymore.
So we want to help teachersbecome more effective in their
approach to teaching and we'renot stylistically bound to any
system.
And that was done on purpose,because ABT needed dancers to be
(18:17):
able to jump from Tudor toPetipa, to Ashton, to Twilithar,
to Martha Graham.
So we had to be stylisticallyneutral but use the information
that we got from the greatmasters of the past the old
French school, the Chiquettischool, the Vaganova school, the
(18:38):
Bournembeal school.
So we were taking informationthat's coming from those great
masters who, by the way, admiredeach other.
We know that Chiquetti was agreat admirer of Bournembeal
predecessor and of Blasie's.
We know that Vaganova was agreat admirer of Johansson, who
was the Danish teacher in StPetersburg, and of Chiquetti.
(19:02):
So there was no sense ofrivalry, there was a sense of
learning from each other, and sowe took that idea to put it
into the program.
So not to be intimidated, okay,so to answer that question, I
would lie if I said it's notintimidating.
It is intimidating.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
But I like what you said about getting more
technical training.
For me I had done all the waythrough the advanced Chiquetti
program and so when I got to theAmerican Ballet Theater
training program I was verycomfortable there.
So what kinds of training wouldyou recommend somebody do,
maybe before they come, ifthey're not up to snuff
(19:42):
technically?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
If people do not have training and of course they
have to have had, like you did,go through a program.
We recommend any program thatis good for them.
If they are near a Chiquettiteacher, it's very good to go
through that program.
If they're near an RAD teacher,that's very good if they go
through that program.
If they follow any kind of sortof systematized program with a
(20:08):
school, if they have a goodFaganova teacher, if they have,
it doesn't really matter whichsystem they do, as long as that
they have a solid technical base.
Now we've had some problems withsome people who did dancing as
a hobby and never reallyachieved a very high level.
Then they retire from whateverjob they did and says oh, I want
(20:30):
to do this because now I wantto be a teacher.
That's not really the rightperson to try and do this
because it is just overwhelming.
Point Magazine or DanceMagazine one of the editors
decided to do the program.
She was a dancer and she had ahigh level and she wrote a whole
article on it.
I don't know if you saw this.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I didn't see it.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Of her experience doing and she said my experience
it was like drinking water outof a fire hose, because the
amount of information is sooverwhelming.
So if you don't have enoughtraining it becomes really,
really difficult.
But if you do, I thinkeverybody who's done it, who has
(21:09):
the training, they've enjoyedit.
They keep coming back to auditand watch it and see other
people go through it.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I loved it.
It was such a great program andI did come back to audit and I
can't say enough good thingsabout it.
It was fantastic and I had thetotal joy of having you and
Franco as teachers and othergreat teachers and I just loved
every single minute of it.
It's a gift that you've givenall dance teachers everywhere
(21:41):
and I appreciate it.
This episode is brought to youby Mix Tape Studios, a
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editing needs.
What didn't I ask you that youwould like dance teachers to
(22:06):
know about the curriculum, orabout ABT, or about you?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Right now ABT is asking us to do a lot of work.
So we've been teaching andtraveling around the world
teaching the curriculum.
This coming year we have about10 programs coming which will be
done around the world.
We are quite busy.
If teachers want a master class, they usually is better if they
go through ABT because it's amaster calendar and I just don't
(22:31):
want to book myself and theysay, oops, I can't do it.
But if they do like to do that,they can always send an email
and then we could look at it andhope that we could accommodate.
But we are really really busy.
Both Franco and I are crazybusy.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Good they're using you as much as they can.
I'm glad you're willing to beso generous with your knowledge
and you're such kind teachers.
I'm glad that you're still outthere doing it.
How can people follow you ifthey want to just see what
you're up to?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
They can follow me on Facebook or through the ABT
website.
You can see what's going on.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
My final question that I ask every dance teacher
is what is your number oneteacher tip trick that you keep
in your back pocket, that youjust couldn't live without One?
You can do three.
You can do as many as you want.
We'll take as much sharing asyou want to give us.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
The first tip is not to assume that you know
everything so that when you givea correction, make sure that
it's just a diagnosis, like whenyou go to the doctor you get a
second opinion, you have to goto another doctor so you may
have misdiagnosed.
So it's just stay humble thatway.
That's a very important tip.
Another one is not to assumethat students are stupid.
(23:51):
Sometimes their body-brainconnection is not set up to
really understand their body,understand what you're telling
them verbally.
They have to retrain a muscle.
Memory is creating thatautomatic response of the
students.
And that's why avoidingthinking they are stupid because
I don't believe that anybodygoes in to do anything to fail.
(24:14):
I don't think you're going tosign into medical school to be
the worst doctor in the world.
So any person tries to dosomething, you have to believe
that they want to do it as wellas they can.
The third thing is to always bekind.
When I was a student we weretaught that you had to be put
down so you build yourself up.
(24:35):
And Monica Mason, who directedthe Royal Ballet School for so
long and she was trained inSouth Africa and she was a
little girl, she said I'm goingto quit dancing.
I can't do this.
And then she found her mother,found this teacher and Ruth
Ingolstein.
I'll never forget this lady.
(24:55):
And Monica said Ruth was thekindest person in the world and
I am where I am because she wasso kind.
Then she became, of course, astar of the Royal Ballet Company
and then director of the RoyalBallet Company.
You see, kindness really doespay off.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
If we all did everything from a place of
kindness, the whole world wouldbe a much better place.
I think that's the best placeto leave this podcast.
Raymond, you have been so kindto do this podcast and your
generosity with your time.
But taking your classes overthe years, I've been so
impressed with your kindnessover and over again.
(25:32):
So you learned that lesson andI hope that we can all learn
that lesson from you.
So thank you so much for doingthis today.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Thank, you for having me.
It's an honor.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Thanks for listening and don't forget.
Please rate and review thisshow and share it with a friend.
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