Who Gets Protected When No One Can Defend Themselves?

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Some rules sound perfect until they meet real life. Zero tolerance promises order and fairness at work, but what happens when a punch lands, security is minutes away, and your kids still need you home tonight? We pull this apart with a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt and military veteran whose day job straddles IT, investigations, and loss prevention. Together we stress-test the policy from both sides: the case for clear rules that protect non-fighters, and the case for proportionate self-defense when the system falls short.

We get concrete. How do cameras, access controls, and documented complaints change the story? When does “behind the desk” become a legal barricade that justifies force? What does a shield of professionalism look like—step-by-step—in the moments before a confrontation turns physical? You’ll hear field-tested tactics that favor control over strikes, reduce injury, and buy time until help arrives. We also explore a provocative idea—mutual combat—as a thought experiment for designing conflict-resolution frameworks that don’t automatically destroy two careers.

This conversation isn’t about glorifying violence; it’s about aligning safety policy with human reality. We ask the hard questions: Who’s the aggressor when both claim defense? How should companies weigh proportionality on camera? Who’s liable if a defender causes injury after following procedure? And why do schools and workplaces keep punishing defenders, training people to accept harm for compliance?

If you care about workplace safety, HR policy, risk management, or just getting home in one piece, this one matters. Listen, share with your team, and tell us where you stand. Subscribe, leave a review, and join the discussion—should zero tolerance make room for documented, proportionate self-defense?

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our first
formal debate.
So gentlemen, ladies, esteemedguests, respected colleagues,
tonight we have the privilege ofhearing from a man whose journey
crosses continents, disciplines,and communities.
A man shaped by service, sharedby experience, and committed to

(01:07):
excellence in every arena he hasalready stepped into.
He is a black belt under theGustavo Machado lineage, having
earned his black belt in 2002,back when the sport was smaller,
rougher, and demanded the kindof grit you can't fake.
For more than two decades, hehas been a pillar in the

(01:27):
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community,known not only for his technical
mastery, but for the way hepasses that mastery on.
Today he serves as a kids BHAcoach at Top Game Academy, where
he teaches discipline,confidence, and resilience to
the next generation of athletes.
In a world hungry for mentors,he shows up week after week.

(01:48):
Before that chapter, he servedour country with honor in the
United States Air Force.
The habits he forged there,precision, accountability, duty
before ego, still anchor hiswork and his worldview today.
Professionally, he brings thatsame mix of toughness and
technical insight into the worldof information technology.

(02:10):
His career has taken him from astructured demands of military
communications to the complexsystems of the private sector.
He currently works in it as anIT at Amazon, where he not only
supports mission criticaloperations, but also partners
with loss prevention and humanresources by pulling and
analyzing camera footage relatedto workplace violence policy

(02:31):
issues and internalinvestigations in a time when
safety and clarity and accurateinformation matter more than
ever.
He is a steady, reliable bridgebetween chaos and truth.
He is also no stranger to theworld of media and conversation
because he himself is a formerpodcast co-host.
He developed a reputation forblending insight and humor and

(02:53):
sharp analysis anchored at alltimes by curiosity and a genuine
desire to understand the worldas it is, not as merely as
people wish it to be.
And as many of his friends willtell you, he is also a certified
foodie, the kind who understandsthe culture, community, and
conversations often begin arounda shared meal.

(03:14):
He stands before us not as aspecialist in one narrow lane,
but as a well-roundedpractitioner of many
disciplines, martial,intellectual, technical, and
civic.
In an age where expertise isoften sullied, he brings a rare
combination the fighter'sinstincts, the veteran's
discipline, the technician'sprecision, the mentor's heart,
and the communicator'sawareness.

(03:36):
It is my honor to welcome to thestage this Jiu-Jitsu Gustavo
Machado Blackbelt.
Joshua Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 (03:46):
Okay, so we're talking about today zero
tolerance in the workplace.
Primarily the attribute I wantto go over is zero violence in
the workplace with self-defenseor self-defense issues, right?
My current employee, uh Amazon,Amazon.com, OFLUS, whatever you
want to call it, that you canclimb it, right?
We have a huge zero tolerancepolicy when it comes to

(04:07):
self-defense or fighting ingeneral.
Generally, with mostself-defense or zero tolerance
policies, it's whoever startsit, whoever's engaged it, are
generally the ones fired fromthe job, right?
And we live in a society ofthings are what they think,
right?
Um, my personal preference onbeing uh martial artists like
long time, uh choose your blackbutton and sell much.

(04:30):
I I think there's sometimeswhere that room has to change,
right?
Um one of the promise example Ican I can kick off that from my
personal experience was when Iwas in the Air Force, right?
Um 2001 to 2008.
Uh the bunch of the old timersthat were always talking about,
you know, we'd go back behindthe has or the um, I forget what
we call it, um, the uh somethingin chess room, right?

(04:51):
But I'll come up with the nameof that later.
Um, wall-to-wall counselingroom, right?
And so there's an issue betweentwo guys, they would go there
and they have they handle theissues out like men or your
women or whatever, but there'sno harm no fell, right?
Um, but even in some jobs in thesecurity sector, there's some
jobs like uh where manly men orwomen women, they work and then

(05:15):
those types of things happen.
They they they do the business,they shake hands, they get back
to work, right?
Um in my company, we're notallowed to have that luxury in a
sense, right?
So let's say me, you don't knowwe got into it, more than likely
whether I started or youstarted, we're both gone.
We're both out back, right?
So the problem we have with thisis if I know, if you know I have

(05:37):
an issue with you and I don'tlike you, and I I want to
jeopardize your safety and yourlivelihood, I I don't I don't
care about the consequences.
I know I'm getting fired.
You can't do anything about it,and you're gonna get fired too
because we we've engaged, right?
We've we've we've we've engaged,you try de-escalating, you try
doing all those things, butbecause I hit you, you're in the
fight now.

(05:58):
We're both getting fired, right?
Um and I've talked about thiswith uh a couple of prevention
specialists at my job, and I'vetold them my background, and
I've told them some things aboutme.
And they said, even then, it'slike, man, you know, it depends
how it happens, depends on notonly us what HR says.
I'm like, well, I I don't thinkthat's a good enough answer for

(06:18):
me, right?
Because if if I am working doingmy job and I get caught up in a
mix and security is two, threeminutes out, I have to do
something, right?
I have I have to be able to fitmyself in a station or status to
protect not only myself and myfamily when I get on because I'm
not working for myself.
You know, I have my wife and Ihave my son, you know, to take

(06:40):
care of at the end of the day.
So I I I think the concept ofzero tolerance in a nutshell is
it's it's very one-sided, right?
It's it's not meant to protectemployees or the or the person,
the victim of the altercation.
It's primarily there to protectthe company.

(07:00):
Okay.
Um another issue you're gonnasee is this.
Well, we'll kind of go back,we'll I'll dig more into this.
Is well, what happens if I don'tdefend myself, right?
I don't defend myself, and andpeople know that I'm a martial
artist or or I'm uh I'm a boxer,or I have some type of athletic
background, right?
So then you get this stigmatismthat you look at you're not as
good as what you say you are,what you were, what you're

(07:22):
capable of doing, right?
Um we we know we we talk a biggame, we're very bravado in some
instances, but a lot of peoplethat one person and they want to
try to press the button to seewhat what you're really about in
in life and your your aspect,right?
And that's always gonna be theirwork or or outside industry.
It's always there, right?

(07:43):
Um but with that, it's it's howdo you mitigate this damage,
right, of losing your job?
Well, I I think um some jobsneed to actually allow that,
right?
So I mean, like you said, youknow, I mean you got into it at
work or whatever, and I'm ableto defend myself as long as I'm
not causing a lot of damage toyou, which which that's what

(08:03):
we're doing in Jiu-Jitsu, right?
We're not we're not throwingfull-on punches.
I don't want to punch you.
That's just gonna hurt my head.
I'd rather take you down andcontrol you there.
But hindsight 2020 is we'rewe're gonna full wall on flight,
full fledged on flight, right?
And in real life, you know, wecan't wait sometimes 20, 30
seconds for help to arrive,right?

(08:24):
Sometimes we have to be our ownfirst respond, our own first
line of defense.
And and some jobs they don't seeit that way.
They're only caring about thejob of protecting the jobs
bottom down the lineup.
And my I'm pretty sure my job,uh, a bunch of other corporate
American jobs feel that way too.
Um, unless you're one of thesewho feels like military, law

(08:46):
enforcement, or where there's alot of like pro-wrestling or
anything like that, because Iunderstand you're a
pro-wrestling fan.
Um those type of areas allowthat or allow men and women to
you don't like it, go in thereand take care of it, right?
And even at my job now, likesometimes I get to travel for
work.
Um, I go to one of the corporatesites uh up in Nova sometimes,

(09:10):
and those guys have a full homefledged Jiu Jitsu training
center at their site.
And when I understand there wasa couple guys that had an issue,
they worked in the sameapartment, they let them take
care of the other.
Is that the norm?
Am I a company I work with?
No, it's not the norm.
But it's something that's rarethat happens, which I think that
should be looked into goingforward.

(09:33):
Um but it it does leave a ifthat doesn't happen, it leaves a
very negative impact on one, theemployee, right?
The management staff, and alsoleaves a very negative effect on
the company.
Because if you can't protect me,and I can only protect myself,
right?
And security can't get to mefast enough, there's a gang of

(09:55):
people around, and I'm justtaking all these hits.
What am I supposed to do?
Right?
What am I gonna do after thisfact?
I have to shoot the company.
You know, I have to shoot themfor my medical expenses, I have
to shoot them for all theexpenses that I want to
extinguish throughout the restof my life.
I have to make sure, at the endof the day, again, I'm not
working for myself, I'm workingfor my wife and my kid, right?

(10:19):
Um, and and and whoever elsethat I may know that maybe help
me online, but immediatefamilies who I have to think
about first.
Um more than 10 chances foraltercation happens.
There's been some previousbullets and previous engagement
or word of mouth or the buildingI work in, a lot of times it's

(10:41):
some guy talking to some girl,some girl talking to some guy,
and one of them's married,right?
At the end of the day, and theyget in, they get in a fight
about that, right?
Um or worst case scenario, thisis happening at one of the
buildings.
Somebody's uh somebody losestheir life, which nobody wants
to see that happen, right?
That's happened in the lastcouple years.

(11:01):
Um but again, sometimes I thinkthe zero tolerance policy, it's
a very, very bad stigma,especially if there's no choice
for you to defend yourself,right?
There's got to be some type ofway to lay the political to
fully look into because when Iget to look at these videos and
they ask my opinion, I'm like,you know, I'm looking at several

(11:23):
things from a self-defenseperspective.

(13:18):
Or they're hands up, or are theytrying to make space?
Or are they looking away out,you know, or they're trying to
get away.
And if that doesn't happen,there's multiple people around
them, they can't get away.
And there's like they're puttinga case they have to cover up and
go forward and go to work.
And a lot of companies don'twant to hear that.
They they feel that it's easierto replace you and that person

(13:39):
than to keep you on board andpay you for protecting yourself.
Right?
They'd rather deal with alawsuit because these
high-powered lawyers versusaverage uh young man or young
woman that that's out there onthis role.
But I know I I jumped around abit.
Um I know I probably still havesome time.
So I'm gonna reserve my time andand hand it back over to you so

(13:59):
um you do can uh kind of rebatesome of the things I said.

SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Okay, so guys, just for the record, the structured
formal debate thing is isbasically flexible.
Uh me and Josh know each other,so um the the we we utilize the
mute buttons and whatnot when wedo the debates, but like I said,
it's flexible.
The the biggest thing is it'sgoing to be letting the other

(14:28):
person speak.
So um what I want people toactually know is uh I actually
agree with everything uh thatJosh said, but just for the sake
of the debate structure, I'mpurposely going to take the
negative position, even though Iactually fully agree and I'm on
board with everything Josh said.

(14:49):
So because um it's not my normalposition, I'm I'm going to treat
it as if um I'm arguing thedevil's advocate here.
So I have a statement that sayswhy zero tolerance is correct.
And it's basically once youallow a little violence, you
invite a lot of violence.

(15:09):
First point is that's why zerotolerance isn't just a
cooperative buzzword.
It's a policy that keeps theworkplace safe, predictable, and
fair for everybody, not just thestrongest, the loudest, the
quickest to throw a crunch.
Uh zero tolerance protects thevulnerable.
Not everyone in the workplace isa fighter.

(15:29):
Not everyone grew up rough, noteveryone knows how to handle
physical conflict, and becauseof that, zero tolerance, it
makes sure that they don't haveto.
Now, when the rule is nobodyputs the hands on anybody, the
janitor, the new hire, the quietemployee, the person with
anxiety, the single mom workingthe night shift, all of them get
the same protection as thetoughest guy in the building.

(15:51):
That is justice.
Point two.
Zero tolerance prevents as aspiral.
Everybody says they onlydefended themselves.
But once fists start flying,nobody remembers who started
anything.
HR doesn't know, witnesses don'twant to know anything, cameras
were broken, our check camerasdon't show intent.

(16:11):
One shove becomes two.
Two became a choke, a chokebecame a concussion, and now
everyone is fired, someone isinjured, everyone needs a
lawyer, and everybody doesn'twant to be involved.
So zero tolerance stops thechain reaction before it
actually starts.
Point three.
Zero tolerance removessubjectivity.

(16:33):
Without it, every person becomestheir own judge, jury, and
self-defense.
He invaded my space, she lookedaggressive, I thought he was
gonna hit me.
That's not policy, that'sactually chaos with the
timesheet.
Zero tolerance draws a line andmakes it clean and solid.
If you use force, you broke arule.

(16:54):
Period.
Now consistency is what keepsthe workplace from turning into
the battleground of competingstories over Bruce egos.
Point four.
Zero tolerance keepsresponsibility where it belongs.
It is not the employees' jobs tofight for their safety.
It is a company's job to preventsituations where the employees
feel they need to fight.

(17:15):
Zero tolerance forces theleadership to act quickly,
decisively, and withaccountability.
If someone is a reth is athreat, the company needs to
know so they can remove thethreat.
No worker should have to risktheir job, their family, or
their life to survive a workshift.
And the last point is numberfive.

(17:37):
Zero tolerance reduces liabilityand protects everyone's
livelihood.
One fight can shudder aworkplace, one violent incident
can cost dozens of people uhtheir lives or their jobs, one
lawsuit can bankrupt and destroya whole building, a whole
business affecting millions ofpeople.
So the zero tolerance policy isthe only policy that courts

(18:02):
actually respect.
It's the only one that HR canenforce that treats everyone the
same.
It's the only one that everybodyuniversally can understand.
So, in short, zero toleranceisn't anti-self-defense, it's
just pro-order, pro-safety,pro-clarity, and pro-humanity.

(18:22):
It ensures every worker strong,weak, new, seasoned, old,
hothead, calm.
We all operate under the samerules, we all get the same
protection, so there's noconfusion, no escalation, no
expectations.
That is why zero tolerancepolicy should stay as a current

(18:43):
policy.
What say you?

SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
So listening to all your points.

SPEAKER_02 (18:50):
Um I again, I would I understand them.
I do agree with them, yes.
But if we're looking at thisfrom the livelihood of a person,
right?
Um we've seen street fights, uh,we've seen encounters.
Um yes, we we want to say, okay,um we want we want to protect

(19:12):
our protect our best employees,we want to protect everybody, we
want to protect the working manand woman.
That's very uh political andpolitician speed, right?
That's what a politician and andsomebody who's looking to move
up the chain of command wouldsay, right?
With the hits following andthumbs up like they're, you
know, like this, right?
That's what they would do.
But in nationality, so how wouldyou deal with this, right?

(19:37):
There's there's no there's no nothere's no there's no we we with
policies, policies are onlyenforced when it matters to the
people in charge, right?
So, uh example, um when I firststarted Amazon, there was a
manager.

(19:57):
Um he told another associatethey had a verbal altercation of
technically zero tolerancestarts now, right?
This manager told thisassociate, let's go outside and
talk.
Let's go outside and take careof this issue.
This associate walked outside.
The manager goes to HR.
They both should have beenterminated, but the associate

(20:18):
did.
Why?
I don't know.
Basically, because the manager,you know, quote unquote, did
what he was supposed to do,following the rules, going to
HR.
And ideally, if zero toleranceis whether it's a threatening
manner or threatening action orword, which could be considered
as, you know, let's go outsideand talk.
Those are technically fightingwords.
So technically from thatstandpoint, they both should

(20:39):
have been fired, right?
But again, some policies areonly they're there to protect
certain members of the jobforce, right?
We don't like to say that.
Uh, we don't like to say thisfavorite chest on the job force,
but that that is a huge, um, ahuge one in some companies,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (20:57):
Definitely agree.

SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
Um, next thing, far as far as lawsuits and
liabilities, right?
If if I get hit, right, let'ssay I get hit, as I mentioned
earlier, I get hit, I can'tdefend myself.
I take I get hit two, three,four times, boom.
My eyeball, my head hitsconcrete, right?
And I get cussed, right?
Sure, that guy's getting fired.
Right, he's getting fired.

(21:18):
The companies will be like,well, you're getting fired too,
because even though you didn'tdefend yourself, because you're
technically in a fight, you'reyou're getting fired too, right?
So the company is still going toget sued.
No matter how much they try toget you a nice little, and we're
gonna give you 250k, 75k,whatever they're gonna offer
you.
There's still going to be alawsuit, both civilly and

(21:39):
legally, because of one, youaren't there to protect me,
right?
As you stated, the job of thecompany's there to protect
employees, right?
You weren't there to protect mewhen this guy was uh squaring up
with me, and I probably morethan likely try to go to HR
about this issue, about thisversion to my manager about this
issue.
So there's multiple people thathave known about an issue.

(22:02):
You can feel president therewhen something rowdy is about to
happen, right?
You can feel this inclinationhappening.
But once it happens and I defendmyself, why am I being taunted,
right?
Because I I know if I did theright thing and I had to lose my
job.
You you you as a company shouldknow what's gonna happen.

(22:22):
I'm going to either fill thisjob loss, you're probably I'm
probably not gonna getunemployment because I broke
work policy that you're onlygoing to enforce it because it
saves the benefit of the job andthe company itself.
So now we have to do legalramification.
Actually, now I have to hire alawyer and I have to lawsuit.
It shouldn't be that way.
Right?
It shouldn't be this way wherethat's the only leg that you as

(22:46):
an employee have to dostandards.
You can hey, take it, take amerciless beating and help comes
there and survives you, and andI oh I have to use your footage
later, man.
It's she's well stuck.
Um, where somebody's gettingbeat for no reason, right?
Because they care about theirjob so much, they they don't

(23:08):
want to hit back.
They can't run away.
They're they're putting aninstance where there's somebody
behind them that's pushing themback into that, back into
getting it, or they're closedoff in the section, like a cage
animal with somebody bigger orsmaller than them, it's hitting
them.
And maybe that person's a meek,malmanner person, but they
should be able to have enoughconfidence to know in
themselves, I have to dosomething, not to protect the

(23:29):
company.
No, the company's not gonna careless about me because at the end
of the day, the company's gonnareplace me within a couple
seconds, right?
There'll be somebody else comingthrough that door, the
ever-revolving door.
So they're gonna replace me.
Why should I take a beating fora company that's gonna replace
me?
I have to be able to dosomething to make sure I can go
home at the end of the day.
And in the same manner, I camein with all my digits working

(23:53):
with my luscious low-cuttinghaircut or long hair, I need to
be able to go home the same way.
And if you're not a companythat's gonna provide those stats
for me, um what else do I haveto do?
You know, um, my job is big onsafety.
Right.
Violence is we we don't want towe don't want to incur violence,

(24:13):
we don't want all these thingsto happen.
But again, policy is only meantto be followed when it is when
it's suitable to the personenforcing the policy rule.
That's that's on any policy.
That's from that's from a safetyperspective, that's from a HR
perspective, and that's that'son um man, there's a couple

(24:36):
others I can I can think of, buteven my my current position, I
think there's certain thingsthat, oh yeah, don't worry about
the policy.
No, look, this is the policy.
Yeah, policy doesn't exist.
We need to do this, right?
And those are times where likeHR and who else is looking at a
way to enforce this rule thatthat that on a normally you're

(24:56):
not gonna enforce.
You know.
Uh I'm gonna hand it over to youuh so you can I get your
thoughts and your opinions onthat.

SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
Uh okay, guys.
So remember when I what I saidin the very beginning that I
mean I actually agree with uhJosh's position, but for the
sake of the debate, I'm takingthe the the uh opposite.
And because of that, I'm notgonna do a long uh following
statement.
I'm just going to make uh aquick little reply.

(25:24):
That way we can have somewhat aback and forth conversation.
Um so I would say for the mostpart, I I've I 100% agree with
the fact that in society as itis run now, the fact that the
rules are for the poor peopleand not for the rich people is
not gonna change.

(25:45):
It is something that we allknow.
The rules are for thee, but itis not for me.
You see that in the courts, yousee that with police, you see
that with politicians, andyou're gonna see it in the
workplace.
So people have to know thatgoing in, that uh the system did
not change because they got gota job.

(26:05):
The the way the countryfunctions is it's multinational
corporations trying tomonopolize everything.
You have to know that the waythey do that is with a body of
lawyers.
So I'm not telling anybody to bea victim.
I'm not telling anybody to todie for the sake of twelve

(26:27):
dollars an hour.
What I'm telling you is to beintelligent enough to wrap
yourself in the shield ofprofessionalism where you know
the policy, so when you do haveto defend yourself, you have
done everything possible to notbe in that situation.
So if you have a policy thatsays if a member came in and
they were aggressive, you wouldyou tell them, uh, would you

(26:49):
please leave?
You need to make sure youarticulate that.
If you have a policy that saysafter they refuse to leave, you
give them a the card of thegeneral manager.
You have to make sure you'vedone that.
If your policy says and then youget behind the desk, you do
that.
Now, those are the three thingsthat you are required to do,
period.

(27:09):
Now, once the person becomesbehind the desk, you now have
what every company is going tohave to back because you have
the inherent right ofself-defense.
That does not end because youhave a job.
But I don't think a lot ofpeople know that.
I have told the person to leave,I have asked him to leave, I

(27:30):
have given them the thing of mysupervisor, I have re- re-re put
myself behind a barricade, so Ihave retreated, they have
pursued me, now I have to defendmyself.
I think what happens most of thetime is people feel like they
are disrespected and they reply.
Just like, oh, there are legalways to to to to take care of a

(27:51):
situation.
My scenario isn't necessarilyfocused on employees having
conflicts with each other.
To that, I would just say uh youcan't you may have to open a can
and grow up.
Uh I don't like most people Iwork with.
I'm not there to like them.
I'm there to get a paycheck.
Now, if the company provides mean opportunity to beat up my

(28:12):
employees, by all means, I'mgonna be there all the time.
But I need to people tounderstand I'm more focused on
zero tolerance policies when itcomes to an outsider coming in
and what you have to do.
And what I would say is the ruledoes not change.
If a if an employee is harassingme, I'm going to snitch.

(28:37):
Why?
Because that is the shield ofprotection.
I am making a documented recordthat I told the assistant
manager that this person washarassing me.
I tell the time and the date, Iwrite the statement when it
happened, and that is one.
Why?
Because I told this person, Imake sure I told them, and

(28:57):
that's if I ever have to get alawyer, I can say, oh no, no,
no, no.
I told the assistant manager, Itold the team lead, I told
another co-worker, and so by thetime this person I had exhausted
all options, that that's how youlegally protect yourself.
But you take it one stepfurther, you tell HR, and it's

(29:17):
like, yeah, well, people maylose their jobs, well, tough.
I don't I don't know to tellyou.
Uh and and that's why in theemployee unemployee thing, the
company needs to know.
In the same way that if there'sa member harassing a staff
person, the the HR needs toknow.

(29:37):
You know what I mean?
That's that's the way thatsomebody who's already dirt poor
working for for minimum wage isdoesn't have to take the the
doesn't have to have theindignity of I'm gonna just get
abused so that I my kids don'tstarve.
You know.
And I think a lot of the timeswhat happens in these workplaces

(29:59):
is people internalize it.
They they're the junior personwith the secret, and by the time
it gets to management, it's goneon for years.
And it's and it should have beennipped in the butt in the very
first place.
Now I'm gonna give you areal-world example.
I can't uh uh name the company,but it did just happen this
week.
There was uh one of theemployees came up to me and he

(30:20):
said, Every time I go to clean,this person just harassed me.
He he calls me stupid, he doesthis, da-da-da.
I'm just trying to do my job.
And so I told him, You did theright thing by coming up here,
and I and I told him, I let I'vebeen it to him, and I said, Now
look, this happened to me.
I said, There was somebody whouh was harassing uh an another

(30:44):
coworker, and it caused aco-worker to quit.
The person he literally gotattacked with a knife.
And so I said, you know, I wouldnever uh let you get that close
to me.
I'm just gonna beat you up andapologize later.
Now, that is because to me, thatis a clear indication.
A person came from the outside,they were intoxicated, I was

(31:05):
behind the desk, they camebehind the desk.
Well, you just you you donefucked up A Right.
And so, but he was so afraidthat his job would be on the
line and defend himself.
So I say that needs to bearticulated that you did
everything right, even thoughyou didn't know that you did
everything right.
You didn't pursue, you werebehind the desk, the person came
behind the desk.
So this employee came to me,told me the situation.

(31:27):
I said, Look, I said, Tell themanager.
I said, I know the manager.
I said the manager will haveyour back.
While while I was telling himthat, I was looking up the
person that was doing theharassing.
It just so happened to be thatthe manager came in.
Now, the manager for thiscompany is one of the Gustavo
students.
And so I told him to make surethat it was done.

(31:50):
I said, Hey, walk him in.
He needs to talk to you.
That way I can make sure hedidn't know.
He needs to know.
So then he told him whathappened.
I could see the manager wasalready upset and he was gonna
deal with it.
He said, He said, Before I dealwith it, let me make sure I'm
professional, let me go get myname tag.
I had already had the guy pulledup.
The gentleman walks up tocomplain to the manager about

(32:10):
said employee, and then themanager says, Look, it seems
like everything is heated.
He says, So I'm going to, guesswhat?
Give you my card.
I'm the general manager.
He says, Well, you uh justbelieving what he says, he says,
I trust my employees, and hesays, I would ask you to leave.
And he says, And for the record,don't ever again call my
employees stupid or you won'thave a membership.
And then the the way the guykept escalating, he made himself

(32:33):
look guilty.
The general manager then steppedbehind the desk, he was in the
middle, the other guy was on theside, and I was to the far
right.
Now what he didn't know is I'vebeen a police officer most of my
life.
That's why I was right there.
He didn't know that the personin the middle does jujitsu.
And he didn't know the personthat he was calling stuck on
stupid as a current E7 in the inthe Marines, who was just

(32:56):
working there because his wifeis pregnant.
He was gonna get all kinds ofbeat up, but we basically gave
him every opportunity to tode-escalate the situation.
So if he came behind the desk,we are protected by the shield
of professionalism.
The shield of professionalism isI did everything correct, and he
just happened to walk walk rightinto a beating.

(33:18):
And on camera, we did everythingcorrect.
I'm not telling anybody to todie for a job that'll replace
you in two minutes, but I'mtelling you, you knowing that a
company is based on laws andbuilt by litigators, you had to
become a lawyer yourself.
How do how can I protect myself?
You know, just like you know,you'll you'll die tomorrow and

(33:42):
from working hard and they'llreplace you in ten minutes, but
you they couldn't I thought theycouldn't find anybody to hire.
Everybody knows this is kind ofa game.
So it's just like the fact thatyou know the system is rigged
and unfair and the rules are forthe for the for the small people
and not the big people, you haveto know the policies to protect
yourself.
Sometimes from the company.

(34:03):
You know, it shouldn't be uhemployee has to get beat to
death before they get security.
You know what I mean?
But you have to document itenough to where when they say,
Well, how how long has this beengoing on?
There's a long record ofsecurity doesn't get here on
time, the police aren't here,this is the dangerous area, you

(34:23):
know, and what say you Well, solet's let's address the first
issue.

SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
So cameras, right?
So uh the building's highservice.
Uh we have a ton of cameras.
There are cameras everywhere,minus the restroom.
We can't have legally we can'tever.
So let's uh look at the firstthing.
The first thing we need toaddress is cameras, right?
Security cameras, right?
We have work at Amazon, we haveall over the building, minus the

(34:54):
restrooms and the lactation uhpods.
The only suit is we don't haveuh cameras at that moment, but
there are cameras on the facingout of those, right?
So if you're if you're lookingat this far as a camera's
perspective, Skynet is is alwayswatching, right?
Skynet's always looking at you,right?
Uh if you're our age, you shouldknow who or what Skynet is.
Uh if you're a Terminator fan,right?

(35:15):
Um Skynet's always watching.
So from that perspective, one,we can we can we can see who
started altercation first.
Um so the altercation of sayingwe don't know who started it.
No, no, no.
You have camera footage.
There's camera footageeverywhere.
So some you can see who walkedup to who, plus the other guy,

(35:37):
push the other guy or girl, andyou can see how the phrase
started from there.
You can't say this person, youknow, the person you actually
try to fight, can't get likesay, oh, that person stopped me
in the face.
Maybe that did happen.
Maybe that happened somewhereelse.
But if it happened somewhereelse, you give us a location, we
can dig into the locationfinding it.
So the the allocation of wedon't know who started it, we we

(36:00):
don't we don't have footage ofit.
No, no, no.
There's footage everywhere,there's cameras everywhere in
these in buildings andcorporations, right?
Um so the next thing for ishaving the the the shield um
respect.
So I'm gonna look at this from afrom your perspective as if a
outside person is coming in,right?
So the way my company protectsus, the employees there, right,

(36:24):
is um unless you have a handydanny badge, I don't have my
badge on me.
Uh, if unless you have your youremployee badge, you're not
getting in through those doors,right?
You're not getting through mybuilding.
We have the old like um rotatingdoors, you know what I'm talking
about?
Yeah, you have those.
So unless you have a badge, thebadge in, you're not coming into
the building.
So most of the instances thatwe're seeing uh between

(36:47):
employees and um non-employeesare mainly those instances are
happening outside parking lot.
Even those areas have uh cameraor camera footages in them.
So in that instance, there'sthere's still somebody's
watching it, footage can bepulled, right?
And most of the those instances,when that happens, if there's my

(37:08):
happen between an employee and anon-employee, depending on how
much research they do and dig,um, if that employee just comes
to their girlfriend or theirboyfriend or whatever, they got
into with that other person.
Um the person who's directlyconnected to the other person
should be getting fired if I'mdefending myself.
If I'm if all else goes asexplained, I, you know,

(37:32):
whatever, I defended myself.
I go back inside, I tell HR,boom, I tell HR what happened,
they're gonna call me and theother employee in.
I didn't hit the other employee.
So more than likely, I'm gonnakeep my job.
It should be I keep my job andthen I lose you manage, right?
Because an outside force, anoutside entity came into the
workplace that does not belongthere and it's band against

(37:56):
there, right?
Um but most of the time whenwe're talking about the
workplace, my job, it's employeeon employee industries, right?
It's it's employees, right?
Um, and even then, likedepending on how drastic it is,
right?
Most of the time there's there'sas we as you say there's no
buildup.
Sometimes it's yes, it goes,whether it's hey, I don't like

(38:19):
you, you don't like me, somebodydoesn't like that, and it's a
nice wing, right?
And in that instance, therethere has to be more research,
there's more uh investigationprocedures that's going on um
with that.
But you should the person whodefended the Stopy Fire?
No, I I highly think not.

(38:40):
I I think it's I think it's justa way for any company uh CYA
themselves to say, oh, we'regonna get rid of two bad apples.
We we don't want to deal withthis.
This is something we don't wantto we don't want to know.
Um I don't desire to do it.
That that's more likely whatthey're gonna be saying.
Um whereas a company with a thistype of policy where they they

(39:00):
can do it.
Um if you're familiar withWashington State or Seattle,
Washington, they have a mutualcombat law, right, which is
which is pretty nifty.
Um do some research from that ifyou haven't, it's pretty
interesting.
A couple podcasts have talkedabout it.

SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Alright, well we we mean we're not pressed for time,
so you could you explain thethat concept a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 (39:21):
Yeah, sure.
Um whenever you're ready.

SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
Alright, so the the ideal concept ideology of the
law of mutual combat or mutualcombat, it's simply this.
It's a fair sanctionedone-on-one fight, right?
It's it's the easiest way tounderstand it.
Think of it as a duel in theearly 1800s or in the medieval

(39:45):
times, right?
You don't like me, I don't likeyou.
Let's let's just fight.
Let's fight to death, right?
But nobody's dying in modern-dayera, right?
It's it's a cop or some type ofreferee that witness two guys or
two ladies uh they agree tofight each other with no outside
reference.
Once they agree, it's done,right?

(40:06):
You you inflict as much damageas deemed impossible.
Once it's done, cop or refereecomes over, hey, you're done and
go about your business.
That's what the idea of mutualcombat is.
I'm pretty sure there's morefiner nuances uh that that's in
there, but that that is thebasic the basicness of that

(40:26):
rule.
It's you don't like me, I don'tlike you.
We have a witness, hey, you wantto fight, I want to fight, hey,
let's go, right?
Um that that is the core of it.
Now, how that would work at aworkplace, right?
You'd have to have a a safearea, right?
Let's let's say you have your soyou have Daryl Enterprises,
right?

(40:46):
You're the president of DarylEnterprises, and and you being a
black belt in jujitsu and havingall these other years, and you
you've you know what what needsto be done, and and you're like,
you know what, hey, legal, let'slet's draft up a plan because
you know, I I know there's gonnabe an instance where people are
gonna fight, you know, thatthey're gonna want to hurt each
other or whatever.
How can we put something inplace that will give them that

(41:07):
yet protect us as a company andyet allow our employees to A,
safely take care of theagreement, the disagreement, and
B, allow them both to keep theirjobs.
So you do all this, you researchall these laws, and boom,
neutral combat, right?
That that's what you put inthere, right?
And it could be, hey, you haveone minute, one minute.

(41:29):
You go in there, do what youneed to do, after that, you're
done.
Now, however, the the biggestrep you might, you you're
probably thinking, well, whathappens if it's not done after
that, right?
Then after that, then you know,hey, we tr we gave you a
platform to take care of yourbusiness, you guys still didn't
want to want to deal with itthat way as gentlemen or
gentlewoman.

(41:50):
You know, you you leave me nooption, right?
You leave me no option.
You know, you either for A, findthe person who's continuing to
antagonize, continuing to goafter, trying to keep the
emotion going.
That ideally that's what shouldhappen.
That person, that bad C, badapple, would have to go.
Um I I think that would probablybe the best way to take care of
that.
It's it's definitely a uniquetake on it.

(42:12):
I I'm pretty sure in most cases,when somebody gets punched in
the face or kicked or choked orslammed, um that goes out the
window, right?
It doesn't matter how big youare, it doesn't matter whether
you're you do whatever, oncesomebody physically alters you,
it it changes you, right?
You you either A, you you shy,run away from it, or you you go

(42:35):
to work and take care of yourbusiness.
After that one minutesomething's done, most most
street fights are generallyunder a minute or 30 seconds.
It's it's it's like it'scrumbing rugby or the initial
car crash of a of a fiddle ofNFL when the guy snaps the ball.
It's that initial boom, thenit's done.

(42:55):
The average person doesn't haveenough gas in their tank to go
two, three, four minutes.
They say they did, but most ofthose guys are not going past
them in 30 seconds, right?
Um so or you can do you say,hey, you both signed this, you
both reneged on your termsignificance of willing to go in
there, take care of yourbusiness, and then you fire both

(43:17):
of them, right, for breach ofcontract.
It's it's a lot of loopholes youcan look at doing.
It's just depending on how niftyyou want to be at it with that,
right?
Um But I I I think there's hasto be something that can be done
that protects all partiesinvolved, right?
You can't just be a company thatonly ignores the bully by one
firing the bully and firing theemployee who had to defend

(43:38):
themselves.
Uh and and and you're eventuallyhurting your your shareholders
who are going to get you'regonna start getting pissed
because hey, you're you'reyou're paying out a lot of money
in legal fees, right?

SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:51):
Granted, you're probably gonna win these legal
fees, but you're paying moneyout for what?

SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Yeah.
What?

SPEAKER_02 (43:57):
You know, uh unless unless somebody unless it gets
to a point where somebody's sobad off for it, you know,
there's just no way.
What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 (44:06):
So the war I want to ask you being that we agree, but
we're disagreeing for the sakeof the disagreement, I have I
have like five questions I wantto ask, and this is how we're
gonna end it, so I can let youthink about each of these
topics.
So the first question is if twoemployees both claim they were

(44:31):
acting in self-defense, howshould a company determine who's
telling the truth, especiallywhen you think about adrenaline,
uh fear, and conflicting storiesin the cloud of the moment.

SPEAKER_02 (44:46):
Okay, uh so quick answer to that.
Um again, there's gonna befootage, right?
Ideally, there's gonna be sometype of footage, right?
Um the initial self-defense,let's say there was an argument
earlier, the person walks away,right?
They're they're fleeing thealtercation, right?

(45:06):
That person comes up behind themand continues the altercation,
right?
And in your mind, watchingfootage, that person that walked
up to the other person is nowthe instigator and is the
aggressor of the conflictbecause the person tried walking
away to escape the conflict,right?
So based off what we talkedabout, no saying escaping or

(45:26):
leaving an area would annotatethe other person as the
aggressor and instigator of theconflict, of the altercation.
Next question.

SPEAKER_00 (45:35):
Alright, perfect.
The next question is how do youprevent a workplace from turning
into a place where the biggest,strongest, or most trained
person has the advantage simplybecause they feel more
comfortable using force on theirco-workers?

SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
I I think most times any guy, you and I both do
gypsy, right?
And generally it it's the bigguy, the big visitor guy comes
in and thinks they're they'rehot stuff and they want to come
in and and generally put alittle guy or gal on them, and
that takes care of that problemby itself, right?
Uh but in the workplace, man,the only I mean that's that's a

(46:12):
tricky case situation, right?
Because there's there's someguys that are about 350 pounds,
they may have heart conditions,and gets this little guy, this
little guy, this tunes them uponce.
That's just them all down.
And again, we look at the guywith the the loudest mouth, is
generally the guy who's aboutnothing.
Who can't throw a punch, whocan't take a punch, who can't do

(46:32):
all these things.
There are a lot of jaw jacking,but they can't handle
themselves.
They they puck themselves up,right?
Like like a they they postthemselves.
They peacock, they shake thetail feather, as Nelly would
say.
And and they and they can't theythey they do nothing, right?
So again, I I think it's one ofthose things, yeah, we're gonna

(46:53):
look at footage, but if thislittle guy over here, actually
the bigger guy is gonna beassumed the problem maker,
right?
Because he's bigger.
But you really have to dive inand see what's happened and what
caused this thing to escalatethe way it did.

unknown (47:07):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (47:09):
I agree.
Uh, if an employer allows forphysical self-defense, who is
going to be or who should beresponsible when the defending
employee accidentally injures orin worst case scenario kills
someone, the worker or thecompany that allow the

(47:30):
altercations in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 (47:33):
Well so no matter what's happening, let's say the
person dies, right?
There's gonna be a civil suitagainst an employee.
That's just because the world welive in, because the the the US,
we love we're sue happy, right?
There's gonna be a civil suit,right?
There's gonna be a civil suitagainst the company and a wrong
law death lawsuit against thecompany, right?
So more than likely, if if therewas something that was sitting

(47:53):
in place that, you know, uh youknow, you defend yourself,
whatever.
Um I I believe neutral combatlaw has something about that.
If someone does die, nobody's atfault, right?
So I believe if you're you doallow a self-defense situation,
um I I think as long as it's Ithink if there's no weapons

(48:15):
involved, I think it's a cleanwash, right?
I think it's a I think it's aclean wash, as long as there's
no stabbings or anything, Ithink it's a clean wash.
It was just hands to hands.
Most times the two guys arejuking it out, you can tell when
the fight's done, right?
You can you we look for we lookfor things.
We look for a guy.
I do kickboxing in Muay Thai inmy gym.

(48:35):
I I had a conversation with astudent today.
I was I I I stopped the trainingsession.
I I saw two things I didn'tlike.
I saw a lot of turning motionand he was trying to run away,
right?
He was blindly turning.
So if you're seeing that kind ofinformation, you're seeing that
in a great uh location wherethey're fighting.
Once you see that, those kind ofmotions, you have to stop it

(48:56):
right away.
Uh you see it all the time inUC, you see it in Bellator, we
see it in hot team K1.
Um, I don't know if K1's stillaround.
I think you are, but whatever,and Glory.
Once you see a guy take a shotand turn and try to run, it that
is the end of that altercation.
It doesn't need to go anyfurther than that.
You know?

SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
Uh the never question number four.
Given that most of the workplaceconflicts escalate quickly and
unpredictably, can you explainuh how allowing physical defense
reduces the risk of injuryrather than increasing it?

SPEAKER_02 (49:33):
Okay, so um I'll explain this the way I explain
to my sister and to otherparents who bring their kids up
to send them up for jujitsu,right?
The issue is if if we're doing aself-defense situation, right,
and I know this guy wants to dome harm, right?
The easiest way I can do is Ican grab him, right?
And or there's double unders,over under, as long as I can

(49:56):
hold them and and wait till helpgets there, that that stops
that.
I'm not in danger anymore.
They're not in danger.
It's control, right?
There's nothing else happening,right?
Yeah, they're gonna try to ramyou into something, but if you
have enough war without someyourself, then situational
awareness, you can kind of guideyourself, put yourself in a spot
where that's over, right?

(50:17):
I my my position, my company Iwork for, there's always a
manager with a walkie-talkie.
And they're they're gonna be ona walk-and-talkie, go on to the
channel, hey, we have somethinggoing on, it's in help now, blah
blah blah.
Once they're there, security orwhatever, the manager sees that
they see be able to step in andA, either A break it up, or B,
depending where they're at,depending on the manager, if

(50:39):
they're an old school cat, theymight just let them go at it for
a little bit.
I I I think the the proper thingis if that person's under
control and and not in adangerous situation themselves
or anybody else, wait till helpgets there, right?
And and it's easier to call aconversation, call an incident
before it gets to that point,even though once it hits, crap,

(51:01):
I got hit.
Let me go in and take and hugthis dude, keep it from hitting
me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 (51:07):
Okay.
And the last question in thisthing is if every employee has
different uh perceptions ofdanger, fear, and threat, uh,
how can a workplace allowphysical responses without
creating a chaotic system whereemotion, not policy, decides
what force was actuallyjustified?

SPEAKER_02 (51:30):
So at a workplace, there would be, I don't ideally
there's no castle doctrine, or Idon't think you may have to lie
on rely on Virginia, make eitherA maybe a castle doctrine or a
very standard ground, right?
And that's a whole can of wormsof itself, right?
Um because what scares you mightnot scare me.
What's uh fear may cause thatperson to scare her or may not.

(51:52):
So it there is no right or wronganswer there, right?
There isn't, because somebody'sgonna be in the wrong on this.
There's gonna be there's not aright answer.
Again, uh jokingly, right?
Um we'll we'll take this as yourbroader scope, right?
Because the the answer I want tosay is it's it's like sexual
harassment, right?

(52:13):
You say a joke to me, it doesn'tbother me, but Shelly over there
feels offended, she goes off andtells somebody.
It was it the conversation hadnothing to do with Shelly.
It could have been about Beckyover there, but because Shelly
heard it and was offended, shegoes off and gets emotional and
then that kind of deal.

SPEAKER_01 (52:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (52:29):
Um so there's there's not a right or wrong,
there's not a right answer tothat because I I again we can
say policy is there, but policyis only enforced when it meets
the needs of the personenforcing the policy.

SPEAKER_00 (52:44):
Correct.
Alright, so now that that is theend of the formal debate period,
I can kind of uh say what Iactually think.
And and it's uh this is actuallypretty funny.
Um I am uh a bad example of alot of this because I have
personally uh been in asituation at a company where a

(53:09):
guy was somewhat harassing thestaff and and I kind of had
already been gotten wind of it,and I already had in my head the
oh, I wish of wood.
So this is actually a personaluh story.
So I came in.
This job, I most jobs I normallywork, I I either work the
earliest shift so I can get outby one, or I work the latest

(53:31):
shift so I don't have to seeanybody in the chain of command.
So it was one of those literallyhad just walked in, coffee
hadn't even kicked in yet, andthen the guy was like, Yeah, I
would just like to talk to you,and da-da-da.
And I said, Talk to me aboutwhat?
He was like, Well, I heard thatyou and I said, Oh, I'm sorry,
we're gonna end thisconversation right now.
I don't I'm not a girl, I don'tdo gossipy stuff.

(53:53):
So I just walked off.
And then so I can't I went back,put on my stuff, hadn't even
clocked in yet.
And then so he was like, Well, Ijust feel like and I said, Oh, I
don't care about your feelings.
We're we're not friends.
I I you know it's I it was justlike I said, alright man, so let
me I said let me amend my myselffor a moment.
What do you actually want to do?

(54:14):
And then so he just says, startstalking about and I said, No.
And I said, Do you actually wantto know what happened?
He starts telling him whathappened.
He was he interrupts me.
I said, Wait a minute.
I said, So I'm already breakinga rule for it for for you here.
I said, So here are theparameters.
When I talk, shut the fuck up.
And he said, What did you say?
And I said, Oh, this is veryeasy for me.
I said, When I talk, shut thefuck up.

(54:36):
And he said, Well, who do youthink you you are?
And I said, Well, it says righthere, Darrell, and my last name
is McLean, and your name is Blahand Blah, and I was like, Did we
get that out of the way?
And then so he was like, Do youwant to step outside or
something?
I was like, actually, I haven'tclocked in yet, and so I would
love to step outside.
And so I I walked outside, andthen the guy was like standing

(54:57):
in front of the door.
I was like, What are you doing?
No, let's go to this corner overhere.
You wanted to step outside sobad, I'm gonna go over here, so
we have no witnesses, and I'llgive you the energy that you
want to get.
So he's just like, No, we canand I'd walked myself all the
way to the corner.
He was still at the door, andthen when he got over there, I
said, Yeah.
Now what you thought was happenwas gonna happen is I was gonna
care about this job.

(55:18):
What you don't know is I have apicture that I'll fuck you up.
And I was like, Don't you everfuck Dude?
I I just went off on him, and hesaid, I just feel like you
should get out of my face, and Isaid, And I feel like you should
move me.
And I was like, So I just couldsee that he he didn't want to do
anything.
I started poking him in hischest, I could see he didn't
want to do anything.
So then I backed off.
I was like, Man, this guy justwants to vent.
So I just let him vent.
You know, then uh you know, Isaid, Yeah, man.

(55:41):
I said, Glad you got it off yourchest, walked off, you know, and
then about two weeks later, hewas like, Man, I looked you up,
you really would have fucked meup and da da da da and and he
said, I'm happy that you didn'tand I said, Well man, I said let
me tell you how this went.
I said, I could tell byeverything you allowed me to do.

(56:02):
You told me to get out of yourface, I got closer.
You you and I and I you Itouched you, you didn't do
anything about it.
Yeah, I and I said, I could seeyou just kinda had stuff going
on.
I said, I know how I said, I'vebeen doing this for so long, I
know when somebody wants tofight and when somebody wants to
fight.
I said, I can see you didn'twant to fight, you just wanted
to yell and scream, and I said,that's why I told you to go over

(56:24):
there, so you can have theopportunity to say everything
you needed to say, and I knowyou feel better.
And he just said, Honestly, hesaid, when you said what you
said to me, which he was goingthrough a lot, and I said, So
the fuck am I, so is everybodyelse, it's not everybody else's
problem.
And I said, You better learn tofigure the fuck out.
This is how people like us getfucking killed.
You know, and he was he waslike, Can I have your number?

(56:46):
You know, you're like my brothernow.
Every time I'm tripping, and Isaid, You have to think about it
like this, man.
I said, if a dog bawls a child,nobody wants to hear about how
the dog got abused.
They just put the dog down.
And I and I said, I understandyour pain, but I need to tell
you the world is not concerned.
And so you need to operate likewhen I walk into spaces, I need

(57:08):
to conduct conduct myself insuch a way that my anger does
not get me in trouble.
And I said, You've been gettingaway with it for so long, you
just think you can just saywhatever you want to say.
I said, right up until the dayyou you meet the you meet the
right person on the wrong day.

SPEAKER_03 (57:27):
I I would I would say the same thing, man.

SPEAKER_02 (57:29):
Like, um, since I've been doing jujitsu, man, like
I'm I I I think one of the firstthings you get you're doing is
you're trying to de-escalateinto any situation, right?
And and sometimes you you youknow, we we we think about we
talk about de-escalation and allthese things.
We try to de-escalate, but it'salways that one guy that that
wants to poke the bear.
And then, alright, dude, you'rethis is your first lesson's

(57:52):
free.

SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (57:53):
Yeah.
You're not gonna like thislesson.
I'm gonna enjoy doing this toyou.

SPEAKER_00 (57:57):
Well, see, my thing is it's funny because I I used
to work for HRT here, and so wehad a mobile team where we would
go out and deal with people onthe buses.
So I'm just like, oh, I dealwith confrontations every day.
I deal with people'sschizophrenia.
I deal with this, I'mhandcuffed.
It's like, when was the lasttime you got in a physical?
Like when you were in middleschool?
Like you think what's gonnahappen is this.

(58:19):
What's gonna happen is you'regonna be tired in 20 seconds,
and I'm just gonna be gettingstarted.

SPEAKER_03 (58:23):
Yeah.
Oh, you thought that was it?
This that that was even awarm-up.

SPEAKER_00 (58:27):
Yeah, so it's just one of those, like But I also I
I know a lot of people, theyhave a lot of things going on,
and they have no no outlet tolet it happen.
So a lot of times it's like uh Iallow myself to be the vehicle
to get your frustrations out.
Then I'm just like, Yeah, whoyou know, good.

(58:49):
I've been called worse.

SPEAKER_02 (58:53):
Yeah, it I think a lot of the times it's just
people don't understand, man.
They they they they take aperson's kindness as a sign of
weakness.
You know, even at my job, I wasI was telling one of the guys
there, I was like, man, listen,you know, if I got into it with
somebody, I I can tell you thismuch, it's gonna be a day you're
not gonna forget, it's a daythey're not gonna be forget.

(59:15):
Because depending on how I toldthem there's always stuff that
is in my mind that I want to tryto see how effective it would be
in a real life situation.

SPEAKER_00 (59:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, see, my thing is I could Ihit this assault the gari until
now and then armbar you within acouple seconds.

SPEAKER_03 (59:35):
Yeah, that's my mind at top.

SPEAKER_00 (59:37):
Yeah, it was it was funny.
I I train a lot of the uhsecurity people around here, uh
law enforcement uh people aswell, but mostly contract
security people, I teach themhandcuffing and whatnot,
especially the women.
And so I'll go out and about andthey'll laugh when they see me
because they're like, good, nowmy professor's in here.
And so one of one of my one ofmy students I went out the other

(59:57):
day, and somebody would saysomething, and she's like, You
better be careful.
That's literally my professorstanding right behind you.
And the guy turns around andsees me and he just leaves.
I told her, I said, Oh, youdidn't have to say anything.
I was already paying attention.
I was gonna throw my chunk up tothe and it's just one of those
things that uh I just look at itlike you they they never know

(01:00:19):
who they know, and I'm not I'mactually not very interested in
telling them either.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:24):
I'm just like No, I I I think everybody needs to
have that that one ult that onefuck round of well that F round
of find out about it.
I think everybody's gonna havethat day spray.
And I I again it's when ithappens, it's gonna happen very
quickly and very violent, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:41):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:41):
Um and and you know, I I don't ever want to have to
go hands-on with anybody atwork.
And if I do, it's I want to feelreally bad for them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:50):
Right.
That's why I say like when I ifI do anything like that, besides
the one situation where wherethere was a lot of stuff going
on, you know, with mepersonally.
Uh Godson had cancer andeverything.
So I was like, man, you know howmuch I want to fuck somebody up
right now?
If I was you, I'd shut the fuckup.
So, and it was it was one ofthose like, look, man, I'm

(01:01:15):
looking for a vehicle to takethis frustration out.
Don't make that you.
You know, so it's just I'veworked very hard to be a very
peaceful person.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And uh, and so I was like, butuh I won't I won't be bullied.
I'll put it that way.

(01:01:36):
And uh but I but and then my myperspective is is is this too.
I I agree with the with the um Idon't agree with the zero
tolerance policies.
Me and my f uh friends weretalking friend Todd Williams was
talking about this even inschools.
Uh one kid hit another kid, theother kid hit him back in

(01:01:57):
self-defense, both kids gotsuspended.
I was like, that's not right.
You're teaching him, you know,to not stand up for himself.
Right.
You know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:05):
Um when my my son's uh he's an adult now.
When he was at middle school,high school, right?
Uh he would come here to ri hewould come here the summer, and
I remember one year, put him injiu-jitsu, right?
He was offices of purple belt.
I just got just got my purplebelt, worked with my kid every
day, and uh he went back toSouth Dakota.
Uh first day of school, he getsin the fight at school, right?
Kid was bullying him theprevious year in school, gets in

(01:02:27):
a new grade, getting bullied bythe same kid, launches the kid
into a locker, and mounts thekid, and then puts him in the
Americana.
Nice.
Perfect.
That's what I'm talking.
About the teachers, there it waswritten documentation the
previous year and from thatschool year already that hey,
this kid's being a bully, andthey were trying to suspend my

(01:02:51):
son.
And you know, me, the counselor,his mom, the principal, we're
all talking.
It was like, you guys shouldn'tbe suspending my kid.
They're like, Well, we we shouldre that's supposed to say no.
I said that the problem is thethings we're looking at is this
if somebody's telling you all, Iknow this just means having

(01:03:12):
issues, you guys need to beproud to take care of that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:15):
You guys, I said that's the reason why we're
having all these schoolshootings.
It's because people are comingto you all for help and nobody's
doing anything about it untilsomething like this happens.
Now, it could have been worse.
King could have got his armbroke, you know, or heaven
forbid, my cat would have goneand off himself because that's
happening too.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:35):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:36):
Because nobody's trying to take care of record.
So at the end of the day, my catdid the right thing.
You all, as teachers andleaders, um, you all are are
failing the students.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, my biggest thing is Ialways tell people, you know, I
started law enforcement,security, police work at the age
of twenty.
I did it in some capacity to theage of thirty-five.
And I always tell people the thereaction time for even good
police departments is sixminutes.

(01:04:12):
You know, a lot of bad couldhappen in six minutes.
And so it's just like mypersonal belief system is don't
let yourself be a victim becauseyou need a paycheck.
Because if if it if um yourfamily can't do anything with
that, that they're gonna get onecheck, they're gonna they're

(01:04:33):
gonna dock you for the weeks youdidn't work, and then you know,
homelessness or whatever else.
And so it's like you always haveto think about you have to do
what's necessary to protectyourself, and then so the
consequences be damned.
You know, so it's like uh I I'mnot gonna tell people in in

(01:04:55):
practice, well, you know, youknow what the company says, I
say, yeah.
Well that's that you have tothink whether the company policy
is worth your life.
And that's the that's the wayyou have to look at it.
You have to think about whetherthe company policy is worth not
seeing your children anymore.
And you have to take it thatseriously.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:11):
And not a two chance it's not.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:15):
I I understand I understand how unfair it is that
people have to make thosechoices, but like I said, I I've
been screaming for fare this andfair that and fair this for
years.
It hasn't happened yet, so Ihave to just tell people you
have to do what is what's goodto protect yourself because at
least in this capacity of theworld I live in, the company's

(01:05:36):
not doing anything to protectyou.
They just want to make money offof you.
The police aren't gonna be therefast enough to protect you.
They're just there to write thestatements, and the political
system isn't doing anything toprotect you either.
So you have to be your ownadvocate, you have to be your
own protector, you have to beyour own lawyer, you have to be
your own everything, you know,and that that's my that's my

(01:06:00):
actual opinion on this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:02):
So let's let's have this.
So my my issue is one building,right?
We're downsizing our HR, right?
Across the company, right?
Downsizing, right?
Um I made a statement to one ofthe HR people, and I I I said
this, but I was not joking whenI said this.
I said, um, I said, it's funnyyou guys got rid of HR.
I said HR's only job from now onin the company is to walk people

(01:06:24):
out the front door.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:26):
And the head HR of the other of the other site just
gave me this perplexed look.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:31):
I was like, Am I wrong?
She couldn't say that.
I said, I said, in the words ofCM Punk, tell me when I'm
telling lies.
And and she's like, You'reyou're not lying.
I mean, I was like, the only jobof HR now is we're we're having
the outsters from ourselves.
The only job you're here to dois walk me outside when I'm no
longer needed here.

(01:06:52):
That's her job.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:54):
It was crazy.
I used to um I used to dosecurity for for places, and
every time they got ready to thecompany got ready, they had me
in there, and I was just like,man, this is just you know,
pretty, pretty awkward uh idea.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:09):
I don't want to be in here, man.
I'm sorry to do that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:11):
Yeah, yeah, like hey man, I got nothing to do with
it.
I don't know what the I don'tknow who's right or wrong.
I just gotta walk you to yourcar.
You know you Yeah, it'd be oneof those things.
But anything else you want tosay on this topic before you
wrap things up?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:28):
No, man.
I I I think it's an interestingtopic.
I think companies need to domore research into this.
I think there's gotta be a wayfor associates to have a way to
I I I think once there'sdocumentation, you know, they're
telling a company about anissue, you know, whether it's
once or twice, whatever likethat, manage whatever.

(01:07:49):
There's gotta be a way for themto say, hey, I did all these
steps, and this person went atme and I had to defend myself.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:56):
There's gotta be a way to say that, hey, yeah, this
this$5 burrito maker over herewas not worth my my life, you
know what I mean?
Because Joe Smoke over theredidn't like me because I'm
wearing the school Yankees hator I'm wearing a a Pojada shirt
or or any of that nature becausehe didn't like me, right?
There's there's there has to bea reason that shows that, hey, I

(01:08:18):
have to be able to take care ofmyself.
And most companies don't careabout that.
You know.
But if you're willing to youknow go out there and do your
job, best ability, and and staveoff any attack, you shouldn't be
penalized for it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:33):
Okay, my last uh thing is you wanted to make a uh
correction in of the openingstatement about when you
actually got your jujitsu blackbelt, a mistake I made.
So when did you actually getyour black belt?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:45):
So I got my black belt May hang on, let me look at
the date right quick.
I got it.
I want to picture right quick.