January 25, 2023 • 12 mins
Click here to watch this episode on our YouTube channel.
In this episode, Brick and Caleb discuss the likelihood and value of iterating your BI solutions. You should expect and embrace it.
Blue Margin helps private equity owned and mid-market companies organize their data into dashboards to execute on strategy and create a culture of accountability. We call it The Dashboard Effect, the title of our book and podcast.
Visit Blue Margin's library of additional BI resources here.
For a free, downloadable copy of our book, The Dashboard Effect, click here, or buy a hardcopy or Kindle version on Amazon.
#BI #businessintelligence #adoption #PowerBI #Azure #Synapse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brick Thompson (00:04):
Welcome to The Dashboard Effect Podcast. How
are you doing, Caleb?
Caleb Ochs (00:07):
Good. How are you, Brick?
Brick Thompson (00:08):
I'm doing well, thanks.
Caleb Ochs (00:10):
Great.
Brick Thompson (00:10):
So today we're going to be talking about why it
makes sense often, almostalways, to use an iterative
approach when you're doing BIprojects.
Caleb Ochs (00:20):
Yeah, I mean, not much more to say than that,
right? That's what you should bedoing.
Brick Thompson (00:24):
So, we talked about this beforehand, and some
of the reasons that were clear,really were, if you don't plan
on doing an iterative approach,the lack of flexibility can
really come back to bite you. Sowhen you're creating reports,
especially, but even when you'redoing data architecture, you
(00:45):
often have an idea of where youneed to go. A pretty good idea.
In fact, you may be positive youknow exactly what the report
should be. But what we find overand over is that once users
actually start using dashboardsand reports and data, their eyes
open up. They start gettingideas. And if you're not
planning upfront to come backand iterate those reports, it
(01:09):
can be kind of a bummer. You canend up with something that's
just suboptimal and not meetingthe goals the way the users
would like.
Caleb Ochs (01:16):
Right. You have to plan on that happening. I don't
know how long we have been usingour own reports. For years. Me,
myself, I've been doing thisstuff and looking at these types
of reports ever since they cameout and really started gaining
popularity. Seven, eight, nineyears ago. And I still have
that, "Ah, let's do this." Andthen it gets on the page and I
(01:38):
am like, "Ah, no, we need tochange that, and this needs to
be here," or "This wasn'tworthwhile at all." And, you
know, it just happens, andyou're better off just embracing
it.
Brick Thompson (01:47):
Yeah, I think that's right. And it's funny, as
you said, even us. I mean, we'regood at this, we do this for our
clients all the time and forourselves. And sometimes you
just don't anticipate the ideasthat are going to come once you
finally start seeing the data ona page.
Caleb Ochs (02:01):
Yeah, right. And by the time you see a report
anyway, you've probably advancedyour thinking a little bit since
the inception of the idea.
Brick Thompson (02:08):
Yeah.
Caleb Ochs (02:09):
So you've got new stuff, and those things are
going to happen. And even whenyou have a good report and
you've dialed it in, in a fewmonths you're gonna want to
tweak it and change it. And ifyou're lucky, it's a few months.
Probably in a couple of weeks.
Brick Thompson (02:20):
Yeah. Well, businesses change and how people
think about things change, andwhat problems they're dealing
with in the business change. Andso, I would say, just anybody
who's contemplating a BIproject, just sort of know
upfront, have an expectation,that iteration is going to be
critical.
Caleb Ochs (02:39):
Right, exactly.
Brick Thompson (02:40):
I think one of the problems too, and I've seen
this happen, if you go into aproject thinking we're one and
done, you're almost shutting offfeedback from users. So they're
giving you recommendations upfront, and you're doing your
best to do a design, let's sayyou're the IT department or the
BI guy. If there's not anexpectation, though, that it's
(03:02):
going to iterate, the users maydisengage, and actually not
adopt very well. And so I thinkit's even important for users to
understand, "Hey, this is aniterative process. We're gonna
do our best to implement exactlywhat you've described that you
need, to answer the questionsthat you need to answer, make
the decisions that you're hopingto make with this. But we have
(03:24):
an expectation that we're goingto be able to make it even
better once you start using itand realize exactly how to dial
it in."
Caleb Ochs (03:30):
Right. I mean, that makes me think of the flip side
of this too, which is you woulddo a ton of upfront work to try
and dial in the right thing, andthen ultimately give it to the
end user. Even when you do that,you still fall back into this.
So you're right, like you said,to set the expectation that this
is how this is going to work isreally important. And not
(03:52):
fighting it. There is a kind ofa balance though. You want to
make sure that you're gettinggood information up front, and
you're getting to, "Whatquestions are you trying to
answer here?" Not just, "Oh, youtold me you needed a pie chart,
so I'm going to build you a piechart." It's "No, why? What's
that going to do for yourbusiness?" So once you can get
to those areas, then you canstart that iterative process and
make sure that the expectationis set with the user, that this
(04:15):
is not going to be a one anddone thing.
Brick Thompson (04:16):
Yeah. And no pie charts by the way. Ever. Also, I
think if you're taking aviewpoint that this is one and
done, you sort of squelchcollaboration. So again, let's
say you're having your ITdepartment do your BI. And so
they're engaging with businessusers and gathering requirements
(04:38):
and then building out reportsand dashboards. If the
underlying understanding is,"Hey, we're just gonna get this
nailed the first time," you'reless likely to get the
collaboration to actually get itto be good. And sometimes, it's
just the littlest change, a 10%change, that takes a report from
(05:00):
being, "Yeah, this is usefulinformation," to "Oh, this is
transformative. This is actuallydriving what we do day to day
and making our business better."
Caleb Ochs (05:08):
Right. Yeah, a good, good way to dial in on those
things is to get a version oneout there. Watch somebody use it
or let them use it, and then, alot of times what people will
do, is dump that data out toexcel and do something else with
it. If you can see that, andwatch them do that, and say,
"Alright, what else are youusing this data for?" You can
(05:30):
build that into your reports,and people don't have to do that
anymore. It just gets that muchbetter.
Brick Thompson (05:34):
Yeah, exactly.
So what are some of the thingsthat happen after you deploy a
report that causes therealization that some iteration
is going to be necessary to getit really dialed in?
Caleb Ochs (05:46):
That's a good question. So, it's interesting
actually, to think about howthis does play out. Because, you
know, you put something in frontof somebody, and let's say it's
pretty close, like, it's prettygood. They're just not used to
having that. Right, you haven'thad this information before.
That's what made these tools soimportant, and have kind of
(06:08):
spurred the business we're in,is that it enables this new type
of data analysis that justwasn't really accessible in the
past, where you can click on adata point and the rest of the
page filters. And when you'renot used to having something
like that, you get that put infront of your face, it's like
all this information in thesedoors just open up, and the
(06:31):
gears just start turning.
Brick Thompson (06:33):
Well, there's definitely that and then there's
just the fact that with thisinformation, people will start
acting on that information. Andthat will lead to new areas of
inquiry and interest and thingsthat they want to see. And so
that'll change what you want tosee, a lot of times, on the
report or you will need anotherreport to supplement it, or some
kind of drill through, that typeof thing.
Caleb Ochs (06:53):
Yeah, you might find a huge hole in your business
process that needs to be filledin before you can go any
further. Right? It's like,"Okay, well, now that I've seen
this," and it might just be asmall, little sliver of the
report. The next step might be,"I need a report that shows me
where this process is breakingdown," right? And so you go do
that. And that's kind of thatiteration that can make BI and a
(07:15):
tool like Power BI, or whateverelse you're using, super
valuable and making changes inyour business to actually see
that ROI.
Brick Thompson (07:23):
Yeah, the other thing that can happen is once
you start using a report, yourealize you have data quality
issues. And so then you go backand start correcting those data
quality issues, start doing somedata quality cleanup or master
data management, that type ofthing. And then once you see the
data after it's cleaned up,realize "Oh, okay, now I
actually know where this reportneeds to go."
Caleb Ochs (07:44):
Yeah, that's a really important one, because it
could change the whole of whatthe reports telling you if you
get your quality cleaned up.
Brick Thompson (07:51):
Yeah.
Caleb Ochs (07:51):
And getting that done, and then saying, "Oh,
okay, I thought the data wasthis way, it turns out it's that
way. Let's make the report looklike this."
Brick Thompson (07:58):
Yeah. Well, there's also just the effect of
having a report out there. Nowthere's just this flood of
information coming in, and allsorts of new discussions and
brainstorming and so on will begoing on.
Caleb Ochs (08:10):
Right. It just enables things you didn't have
before. So its like, "All right,let's actually dig in here." And
you can start findinginteresting new things. And
that's when that iteration is soimportant, because you want to
capture and capitalize on thatnew thinking that you've just
enabled yourself to do.
Brick Thompson (08:30):
Yeah, and I think the other thing that leads
to, or contributes to that, andpossibly needing iteration, is
just the business getting usedto using these reports. So, the
business may not have had goodvisibility into things before,
and so now that they're gettingit, it may take some time to get
used to it. And we've definitelyseen that internally. We'll put
(08:53):
a new report or dashboard outand we'll use it for three or
four months, and it seems likeit's really good. But as we're
using it, we start to learnthings that then drives us in a
different direction. And so youjust have to sort of be ready
for that, I think.
Caleb Ochs (09:06):
Yeah. Right. And let's say you solve one of your
problems, then you don't reallyneed that report, maybe not in
that form anymore. Like theexample I'll give you is, I
think in our Expert InsightSeries, Tanya was talking about
how they have an initiative fortheir CRM hygiene. So, just
(09:29):
cleaning up their CRM. So theybuilt some reports to give them
good analysis and, "How clean isour CRM." Once you've got that
and your business processes aremuch more solid and you've used
the tool, you probably don'tneed that at a detailed, line
level reporting, that you didwhen you were trying to clean up
your CRM. You probably now areable to look at higher level
(09:50):
numbers, and you need detailedreporting somewhere else. So
those things will shift around.
They'll change as your businesschanges, as you evolve, you get
better at things, some areas ofyour business fall behind,
you're gonna need to be flexiblethere.
Brick Thompson (10:03):
Yeah, that's a really good example. It makes me
think of another example that wedid to ourselves. We talked
about this many months ago. Butlast year, we switched from
doing hourly billing for ourprojects to just doing a fixed
price for projects. And it brokea lot of our reporting. In fact,
we didn't even know what weneeded to know, in order to
(10:23):
manage our projects well, untilwe started doing it. And so we
had we had to redo a bunch ofstuff for that.
Caleb Ochs (10:29):
Still redoing it.
Brick Thompson (10:32):
Yeah, as we learn more and figuring out how
to approach it better and thinkabout it better. Yeah, it's
true.
Caleb Ochs (10:38):
Yeah. I mean, just this morning, we thought of
almost another metric that mightbe interesting to look at, like
the difference between overallprofit and project profit. The
difference between those two isan interesting discussion. But
those are the types of things,just seeing it on the page
you're like, "Oh, well, thatone's really high. That one's
very different. What's does thatmean? Why do those two things
(11:02):
correlate?" I mean, we could dothat and it would be
interesting. But anyway, sothat's just an example of the
thinking that it can spur.
Brick Thompson (11:10):
Yeah. All right.
Well, I think we'll wrap up. Ithink it's important really to
re-emphasize that people, asthey're going into a BI project,
whether it's internally or witha partner, like us, or however
they're doing it, just be readyto iterate. And don't put
everything into that firstdraft. I mean, do a good first
draft, because you don't want tohave adoption issues because
(11:33):
you've got data errors, oryou've completely missed the
mark. But get that first draftout there, start doing user
acceptance testing and realize,"Okay, there's gonna be some
adjustment that happens inhere."
Caleb Ochs (11:47):
Right, and you want the organization, not just the
end users, as we've just talkedabout, you want the organization
to have a good expectation ofwhat this BI initiative entails.
It's not a one month thing, andthen we've got BI and we're good
to go. It's like, "No, it'sgoing to take a little while and
we're going to do multipleprojects. And then we're going
(12:09):
to have something that's alittle bit more encompassing."
Even at that point, you're stillgoing to be tweaking, so it's
kind of a never ending thing,but it's very, very valuable.
Brick Thompson (12:19):
Yeah. And I think even if you love your
first draft, which is often thecase, because you haven't had
reporting, so you get a firstdraft of something out and
everybody's thrilled becausethey're actually getting some
visibility now. There stillshould be an expectation that
you're going to be coming backand making it better.
Caleb Ochs (12:33):
Right, right. You want to do that.
Brick Thompson (12:36):
All right. Well, I think that's it. Thanks,
Caleb.
Caleb Ochs (12:38):
Thank you.
Welcome to The Dashboard Effect Podcast. How
are you doing, Caleb?
Caleb Ochs (00:07):
Good. How are you, Brick?
Brick Thompson (00:08):
I'm doing well, thanks.
Caleb Ochs (00:10):
Great.
Brick Thompson (00:10):
So today we're going to be talking about why it
makes sense often, almostalways, to use an iterative
approach when you're doing BIprojects.
Caleb Ochs (00:20):
Yeah, I mean, not much more to say than that,
right? That's what you should bedoing.
Brick Thompson (00:24):
So, we talked about this beforehand, and some
of the reasons that were clear,really were, if you don't plan
on doing an iterative approach,the lack of flexibility can
really come back to bite you. Sowhen you're creating reports,
especially, but even when you'redoing data architecture, you
(00:45):
often have an idea of where youneed to go. A pretty good idea.
In fact, you may be positive youknow exactly what the report
should be. But what we find overand over is that once users
actually start using dashboardsand reports and data, their eyes
open up. They start gettingideas. And if you're not
planning upfront to come backand iterate those reports, it
(01:09):
can be kind of a bummer. You canend up with something that's
just suboptimal and not meetingthe goals the way the users
would like.
Caleb Ochs (01:16):
Right. You have to plan on that happening. I don't
know how long we have been usingour own reports. For years. Me,
myself, I've been doing thisstuff and looking at these types
of reports ever since they cameout and really started gaining
popularity. Seven, eight, nineyears ago. And I still have
that, "Ah, let's do this." Andthen it gets on the page and I
(01:38):
am like, "Ah, no, we need tochange that, and this needs to
be here," or "This wasn'tworthwhile at all." And, you
know, it just happens, andyou're better off just embracing
it.
Brick Thompson (01:47):
Yeah, I think that's right. And it's funny, as
you said, even us. I mean, we'regood at this, we do this for our
clients all the time and forourselves. And sometimes you
just don't anticipate the ideasthat are going to come once you
finally start seeing the data ona page.
Caleb Ochs (02:01):
Yeah, right. And by the time you see a report
anyway, you've probably advancedyour thinking a little bit since
the inception of the idea.
Brick Thompson (02:08):
Yeah.
Caleb Ochs (02:09):
So you've got new stuff, and those things are
going to happen. And even whenyou have a good report and
you've dialed it in, in a fewmonths you're gonna want to
tweak it and change it. And ifyou're lucky, it's a few months.
Probably in a couple of weeks.
Brick Thompson (02:20):
Yeah. Well, businesses change and how people
think about things change, andwhat problems they're dealing
with in the business change. Andso, I would say, just anybody
who's contemplating a BIproject, just sort of know
upfront, have an expectation,that iteration is going to be
critical.
Caleb Ochs (02:39):
Right, exactly.
Brick Thompson (02:40):
I think one of the problems too, and I've seen
this happen, if you go into aproject thinking we're one and
done, you're almost shutting offfeedback from users. So they're
giving you recommendations upfront, and you're doing your
best to do a design, let's sayyou're the IT department or the
BI guy. If there's not anexpectation, though, that it's
(03:02):
going to iterate, the users maydisengage, and actually not
adopt very well. And so I thinkit's even important for users to
understand, "Hey, this is aniterative process. We're gonna
do our best to implement exactlywhat you've described that you
need, to answer the questionsthat you need to answer, make
the decisions that you're hopingto make with this. But we have
(03:24):
an expectation that we're goingto be able to make it even
better once you start using itand realize exactly how to dial
it in."
Caleb Ochs (03:30):
Right. I mean, that makes me think of the flip side
of this too, which is you woulddo a ton of upfront work to try
and dial in the right thing, andthen ultimately give it to the
end user. Even when you do that,you still fall back into this.
So you're right, like you said,to set the expectation that this
is how this is going to work isreally important. And not
(03:52):
fighting it. There is a kind ofa balance though. You want to
make sure that you're gettinggood information up front, and
you're getting to, "Whatquestions are you trying to
answer here?" Not just, "Oh, youtold me you needed a pie chart,
so I'm going to build you a piechart." It's "No, why? What's
that going to do for yourbusiness?" So once you can get
to those areas, then you canstart that iterative process and
make sure that the expectationis set with the user, that this
(04:15):
is not going to be a one anddone thing.
Brick Thompson (04:16):
Yeah. And no pie charts by the way. Ever. Also, I
think if you're taking aviewpoint that this is one and
done, you sort of squelchcollaboration. So again, let's
say you're having your ITdepartment do your BI. And so
they're engaging with businessusers and gathering requirements
(04:38):
and then building out reportsand dashboards. If the
underlying understanding is,"Hey, we're just gonna get this
nailed the first time," you'reless likely to get the
collaboration to actually get itto be good. And sometimes, it's
just the littlest change, a 10%change, that takes a report from
(05:00):
being, "Yeah, this is usefulinformation," to "Oh, this is
transformative. This is actuallydriving what we do day to day
and making our business better."
Caleb Ochs (05:08):
Right. Yeah, a good, good way to dial in on those
things is to get a version oneout there. Watch somebody use it
or let them use it, and then, alot of times what people will
do, is dump that data out toexcel and do something else with
it. If you can see that, andwatch them do that, and say,
"Alright, what else are youusing this data for?" You can
(05:30):
build that into your reports,and people don't have to do that
anymore. It just gets that muchbetter.
Brick Thompson (05:34):
Yeah, exactly.
So what are some of the thingsthat happen after you deploy a
report that causes therealization that some iteration
is going to be necessary to getit really dialed in?
Caleb Ochs (05:46):
That's a good question. So, it's interesting
actually, to think about howthis does play out. Because, you
know, you put something in frontof somebody, and let's say it's
pretty close, like, it's prettygood. They're just not used to
having that. Right, you haven'thad this information before.
That's what made these tools soimportant, and have kind of
(06:08):
spurred the business we're in,is that it enables this new type
of data analysis that justwasn't really accessible in the
past, where you can click on adata point and the rest of the
page filters. And when you'renot used to having something
like that, you get that put infront of your face, it's like
all this information in thesedoors just open up, and the
(06:31):
gears just start turning.
Brick Thompson (06:33):
Well, there's definitely that and then there's
just the fact that with thisinformation, people will start
acting on that information. Andthat will lead to new areas of
inquiry and interest and thingsthat they want to see. And so
that'll change what you want tosee, a lot of times, on the
report or you will need anotherreport to supplement it, or some
kind of drill through, that typeof thing.
Caleb Ochs (06:53):
Yeah, you might find a huge hole in your business
process that needs to be filledin before you can go any
further. Right? It's like,"Okay, well, now that I've seen
this," and it might just be asmall, little sliver of the
report. The next step might be,"I need a report that shows me
where this process is breakingdown," right? And so you go do
that. And that's kind of thatiteration that can make BI and a
(07:15):
tool like Power BI, or whateverelse you're using, super
valuable and making changes inyour business to actually see
that ROI.
Brick Thompson (07:23):
Yeah, the other thing that can happen is once
you start using a report, yourealize you have data quality
issues. And so then you go backand start correcting those data
quality issues, start doing somedata quality cleanup or master
data management, that type ofthing. And then once you see the
data after it's cleaned up,realize "Oh, okay, now I
actually know where this reportneeds to go."
Caleb Ochs (07:44):
Yeah, that's a really important one, because it
could change the whole of whatthe reports telling you if you
get your quality cleaned up.
Brick Thompson (07:51):
Yeah.
Caleb Ochs (07:51):
And getting that done, and then saying, "Oh,
okay, I thought the data wasthis way, it turns out it's that
way. Let's make the report looklike this."
Brick Thompson (07:58):
Yeah. Well, there's also just the effect of
having a report out there. Nowthere's just this flood of
information coming in, and allsorts of new discussions and
brainstorming and so on will begoing on.
Caleb Ochs (08:10):
Right. It just enables things you didn't have
before. So its like, "All right,let's actually dig in here." And
you can start findinginteresting new things. And
that's when that iteration is soimportant, because you want to
capture and capitalize on thatnew thinking that you've just
enabled yourself to do.
Brick Thompson (08:30):
Yeah, and I think the other thing that leads
to, or contributes to that, andpossibly needing iteration, is
just the business getting usedto using these reports. So, the
business may not have had goodvisibility into things before,
and so now that they're gettingit, it may take some time to get
used to it. And we've definitelyseen that internally. We'll put
(08:53):
a new report or dashboard outand we'll use it for three or
four months, and it seems likeit's really good. But as we're
using it, we start to learnthings that then drives us in a
different direction. And so youjust have to sort of be ready
for that, I think.
Caleb Ochs (09:06):
Yeah. Right. And let's say you solve one of your
problems, then you don't reallyneed that report, maybe not in
that form anymore. Like theexample I'll give you is, I
think in our Expert InsightSeries, Tanya was talking about
how they have an initiative fortheir CRM hygiene. So, just
(09:29):
cleaning up their CRM. So theybuilt some reports to give them
good analysis and, "How clean isour CRM." Once you've got that
and your business processes aremuch more solid and you've used
the tool, you probably don'tneed that at a detailed, line
level reporting, that you didwhen you were trying to clean up
your CRM. You probably now areable to look at higher level
(09:50):
numbers, and you need detailedreporting somewhere else. So
those things will shift around.
They'll change as your businesschanges, as you evolve, you get
better at things, some areas ofyour business fall behind,
you're gonna need to be flexiblethere.
Brick Thompson (10:03):
Yeah, that's a really good example. It makes me
think of another example that wedid to ourselves. We talked
about this many months ago. Butlast year, we switched from
doing hourly billing for ourprojects to just doing a fixed
price for projects. And it brokea lot of our reporting. In fact,
we didn't even know what weneeded to know, in order to
(10:23):
manage our projects well, untilwe started doing it. And so we
had we had to redo a bunch ofstuff for that.
Caleb Ochs (10:29):
Still redoing it.
Brick Thompson (10:32):
Yeah, as we learn more and figuring out how
to approach it better and thinkabout it better. Yeah, it's
true.
Caleb Ochs (10:38):
Yeah. I mean, just this morning, we thought of
almost another metric that mightbe interesting to look at, like
the difference between overallprofit and project profit. The
difference between those two isan interesting discussion. But
those are the types of things,just seeing it on the page
you're like, "Oh, well, thatone's really high. That one's
very different. What's does thatmean? Why do those two things
(11:02):
correlate?" I mean, we could dothat and it would be
interesting. But anyway, sothat's just an example of the
thinking that it can spur.
Brick Thompson (11:10):
Yeah. All right.
Well, I think we'll wrap up. Ithink it's important really to
re-emphasize that people, asthey're going into a BI project,
whether it's internally or witha partner, like us, or however
they're doing it, just be readyto iterate. And don't put
everything into that firstdraft. I mean, do a good first
draft, because you don't want tohave adoption issues because
(11:33):
you've got data errors, oryou've completely missed the
mark. But get that first draftout there, start doing user
acceptance testing and realize,"Okay, there's gonna be some
adjustment that happens inhere."
Caleb Ochs (11:47):
Right, and you want the organization, not just the
end users, as we've just talkedabout, you want the organization
to have a good expectation ofwhat this BI initiative entails.
It's not a one month thing, andthen we've got BI and we're good
to go. It's like, "No, it'sgoing to take a little while and
we're going to do multipleprojects. And then we're going
(12:09):
to have something that's alittle bit more encompassing."
Even at that point, you're stillgoing to be tweaking, so it's
kind of a never ending thing,but it's very, very valuable.
Brick Thompson (12:19):
Yeah. And I think even if you love your
first draft, which is often thecase, because you haven't had
reporting, so you get a firstdraft of something out and
everybody's thrilled becausethey're actually getting some
visibility now. There stillshould be an expectation that
you're going to be coming backand making it better.
Caleb Ochs (12:33):
Right, right. You want to do that.
Brick Thompson (12:36):
All right. Well, I think that's it. Thanks,
Caleb.
Caleb Ochs (12:38):
Thank you.
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