September 18, 2025 • 38 mins
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Step into the psychology of branding with Jean-Pierre Lacroix, a veteran branding expert and leader of Shikatoni Lacroix Design, whose career spans creating iconic retail concepts like the Kodak Image Center. This eye-opening conversation challenges fundamental assumptions about what makes customers loyal to brands and why even industry giants sometimes catastrophically misunderstand their own value.
Lacroix reveals true branding begins far deeper than logos or slogans – it starts with a clear value proposition that connects emotionally with customers. "80% of all buying decisions are done emotionally and in a split second," he explains, sharing why his book "ThinkBlink Manifesto" focuses on winning that crucial moment of decision.
Through fascinating case studies, including Cracker Barrel's recent rebranding disaster, Lacroix explores how companies destroy customer loyalty when they abandon their emotional equity. He contrasts this with success stories like Chick-fil-A, whose owners greet customers personally and create "shareable emotional moments" that foster true brand loyalty.
For photo retailers specifically, Lacroix offers actionable strategies: celebrate photography as an art form, showcase local photographers' work, host classes that build community, and create in-store "selfie moments" that customers want to share. He emphasizes that competing on price or product selection alone is a losing strategy – the real opportunity lies in creating a sense of belonging that online giants can't replicate.
Discover the seven tenets of emotional branding from Lacroix's book, from understanding your core emotional equity to future-proofing against disruption. Whether you run a specialty retail
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, gary Pegeau.
The Dead Pixel Society podcastis brought to you by MediaClip,
advertag Printing andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:17):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
I'm your host, gary Pegeau, andtoday we're joined by
Jean-Pierre Lacroix withShikotani Lacroix Design, and he
is a longtime branding expertand in the pre-show, which I
wish I would have recorded, welearned we probably crossed
paths probably 20 some years agoin the industry, but we're not
(00:39):
really talking about that rightnow.
Hello Jean-Pierre, how are youtoday?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (00:45):
Fantastic.
Gary Pageau (00:46):
So how did you get into this branding business?
I mean, you've been in a longtime.
What energized you to get intothis?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (00:53):
Well, I couldn't find a job.
I'm just kidding.
No, you know, I grew up on anAir Force base.
My dad was in the Air Force.
I grew up in Germany, actually,and when we came back to Canada
my dad got into the electronicsbusiness and then we got into
the garden business and I alwayshad an affinity for the arts.
I was painting signs on thetrucks and on the farm signs,
(01:14):
but I also had an affinity forbeing in the Air Force and so I
applied for two colleges.
I applied for ROC, the RoyalMilitary College in Kingston,
and applied for a graphic designcourse at a local community
college in Toronto and I saidwhoever responds to my
application first is where I'mgoing to go.
(01:35):
And obviously Sheridan Collegeresponded and I never made it
into ROC.
My grades weren't good enough.
So you know, fate had it.
I ended up being a designer andhave never regretted making
that decision, although designhas changed dramatically a lot
for the good, and I don't miss.
I spend my time flying.
I fly about 200,000 miles ayear because we have offices in
(01:57):
China and we do work around theworld.
So I got my Air Force value outof business travel.
Gary Pageau (02:04):
There you go.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (02:05):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (02:06):
Cool.
So one of the things I want totalk to you about is branding,
because one of the things thatthe misinterpretations I see
with people when they talk aboutbranding is the thing like a
logo is a brand.
Right, it's the Coca-Cola logoor something like that, and it's
not that at all.
So, in your world, when you'retalking to a potential client or
(02:27):
someone about branding, whatare you talking about?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (02:30):
Well, we start with the foundation of a
brand, which is what is thevalue proposition that product
service offers the consumersthat they're willing to pay for.
That is different than thecompetition.
So we'll start there.
We say what is your valueproposition.
But we go deeper.
We don't just say what's yourvalue proposition.
(02:51):
We say what is your functionalvalue proposition?
There's also what's youremotional value proposition,
because we know that 80% of allbuying decisions are done
emotionally and they're done ina split second.
Hence the think blank book thatI just released in the
marketplace.
It's about making thatemotional connection.
That's where we start, becausethat's the foundation.
(03:12):
You know, if the foundation ofa house is shaped or is not
solid, the house is going tocrumble sooner or later, and so
that's where we start.
Then we say how do you takethat value proposition and
translate it into thepersonification of that value
proposition, which is, how doyou apply it to a logo?
How do you apply it topackaging?
(03:33):
How do you apply it to thewebsite, the mobile app, all
these different what we callconsumer touch points?
But it really starts with whereare we in the marketplace?
What value do we bring?
Erin Manning (03:46):
How is?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (03:46):
that relevant to our target group and
where most brands get intotrouble is that they've stayed
static.
They've lost their relevancywith their consumers as the
consumer market shifted.
Younger generations havedifferent values.
They're very focused on purposebrands and what's your purpose
(04:08):
in the marketplace.
And if brands haven't stayedrelevant with these trends,
they're in trouble.
And there's this great modelcalled the brand curve, which is
an S curve and most brands dotheir transformational.
When they're in crisis, at thetop, at the peak relevancy, it's
too late.
(04:29):
Once that brand startsdeclining, it's very hard.
Gravity takes hold.
It's very hard for them tochange.
So the trick is, as the brandis growing, as they're building
their equity in the marketplace,it's constantly evaluating are
we relevant?
Do we remain relevant?
Is there anything that's goingto change that relevancy?
And that's what branding is allabout.
Gary Pageau (04:49):
Well in the news, recently we've had a major
branding error that everyone'sbeen talking about, which is the
whole cracker barrel fiasco.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (04:59):
Now it seems to me like they did what
you just said.
Gary Pageau (05:01):
They were in the market for a long time and then
they decided they were going tomake themselves relevant, and
then now they've had to walkthat back.
What was your perception of, asthis thing was unfolding in
real time?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (05:14):
Gary, the big mistake they've done is that
they did not evaluate theiremotional equities that they own
with the consumers.
Right, you know, they're veryfixated on going after the
younger generation and mostbrands are saying this.
They're saying okay, how do weappeal to Gen Z and Gen Xers?
How is our brand remainingrelevant to them?
But don't forget your corecustomers, because if you forget
(05:37):
those, you're basicallylaunching a new brand, which is
basically what Cracker Barreldid.
They lost the equity of theirbrand, their emotional equity.
They moved away from thecharacter and their logo.
If you saw the rendering or thepictures of the inside of their
restaurants, they're stark,they're pretty plain.
There's no sense of discovery.
You know the sense of shoppingexperience that the old Cracker
(06:00):
Barrel had.
I remember taking my daughterand my wife to a Cracker Barrel
in Florida and it was a wholeexperience and it was catchy.
It wasn't slick but it wasfamiliar, it was comfortable,
the food was great, the servicewas excellent and it was an
experience.
They lost that and that's whythey're getting dinged.
I mean kudos to the CEO thatshe's backtracking this strategy
(06:22):
.
Going back to the basics basicsbecause they have to do that,
but they're not the only ones.
Jcpenney, remember thegentleman from Apple went and
became president and they're themistake, and this is the
mistake most brandtransformations do.
We have this model we call thetrust ladder.
You have a vision of where youwant to be and JCPenney went
from where they want to be tothe where they are, to where
(06:45):
they want to be in one step andthe reality.
They should have stepped it andbuilt the trust with the
customers along that journey,and that's what Cracker Barrel
did also.
Maybe it would have been goodjust to start with the logo.
Make a logo change, but keepthe inside.
Gary Pageau (06:59):
Most of these are rolled out gradually when you
see them.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (07:04):
No, they didn't do that.
So they lost the core equity,the emotional equity of their
brand, which is back to theirvalue proposition.
They destroyed their valueproposition.
Gary Pageau (07:12):
So the interesting thing I think is, as I was like
most business people journalistsreading this stuff, kind of you
did some research and they werestruggling right, cracker
Barrel was struggling,especially post-COVID.
They tried some home deliveryand that helped.
So I think they realized theythought it was a branding or
(07:33):
awareness issue to, like yousaid, get Gen Z and Gen X to
leave their basements and cometo Cracker Barrel.
But what should they focus oninstead?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (07:50):
They should have first understood what are
the core equities of theexperience that are the
foundation of their brand andhow those things link to this
sense of authenticity, sense ofbelonging, which is our sixth
tenet in our bar, the fifthtenet in my book, sense of
belonging.
They lost that sight and hadthey looked at that, they would
have been able to create amodern experience.
(08:11):
And the other insight I wouldsay is this when you think we do
work around the world, so ifyou're trying to appeal to a Gen
Z, Gen X, it has to be a selfiemoment.
Think of the new design forCracker.
Gary Pageau (08:30):
Barrel?
There is no selfie moments.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (08:31):
There's no situation where people can take
a selfie.
The old stores, the old concept, the old restaurant concept
there's tons of selfie momentsin there, where you're shopping
in the store, taking up theseunique items that you would
never find the store taking up,you know, these unique items
that you would never findanywhere else and taking a
picture of you with it.
They lost that.
They lost the selfie moments.
Erin Manning (08:51):
Right.
Gary Pageau (08:52):
And it seems like that's in general.
What's happening to kind of thefast food and fast casual
industry is that most of theirstores are kind of being denuded
of personality.
They're just boxes.
If you look at a Taco Bell anda KFC and a McDonald's and a
(09:13):
Burger King, they're allbasically boxes.
Right, there's no moreplaylists and their menus are
becoming radically similar.
Right, I'm waiting for TacoBell to bring out burgers one of
these days, because they're alladding each other's products.
What do you think about that,that of neutralization of that,
those emotional experiences?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (09:30):
well, number one is we did a huge
study this year and you can findon our website on the food
service industry and what isactually driving.
Why is it that chick-fil-a isso successful, and and some of
the other chains are sosuccessful as, and the brands
like McDonald's and Starbucksand KFC are struggling.
(09:50):
Why is that happening?
As we dug into that and what wefound out is this you have two
factors.
You have what we call attritiondetractors.
These are things that stopcustomers from leaving your
brand, but they're not the onesthat are going to drive that
customer to come more often.
So they'll always think of youfor burgers, mcdonald's, but
(10:11):
instead of going to McDonald'sonce a week, they're going to go
to McDonald's once a month.
It's killing the business.
And then there's what we callthe growth factors and it's one
sentence, it's share, shareablemoments.
Shareable emotional moments iswhen you look at these brands
chick-fil-a, chick-fil-a.
When you walk in, you'regreeted by the owner of the
(10:34):
restaurant and they're thankingyou for coming in.
Name me one other fast foodchain or fast casual chain where
the manager's at the doorthanking you for the business,
picking up empty trays andwalking around the tables and
asking you are you enjoying yourmeal Like maybe one other fast
(10:54):
casual or casual or fast foodrestaurant chain that does that
Zero?
So they've lost this emotionalconnection and they've lost the
ability of sharing thatemotional connection with their
friends, because that's wheretrue brand loyalty is.
Brand loyalty is you're willingto wear on a tattoo the Harley
(11:16):
Davidson logo, right?
You're willing to be a badgefor that brand.
People are not walking aroundas a badge with McDonald's.
Now I have to say Starbucksstill has.
We just finished a big studylooking at Starbucks.
They still have a lot ofemotional equity in the
marketplace, but they lost theirbadge value because they went
(11:38):
from being an experience thethird place to being a
transactional place wheretakeout is more important than
dine-in.
And if you look at Starbucksnew designs.
They shrunk the whole frontseating area.
They made the takeout area muchlarger.
So what they're saying toconsumers is we're no longer an
experience transaction and whenyou become a transaction, you
(12:04):
lost the customer.
Gary Pageau (12:05):
Yeah, it doesn't make a difference Because I mean
, that's exactly what's happenedwith other restaurants, right?
I mean, if you look at a, youknow you can see where they
maybe knocked down an oldMcDonald's and they put up a new
one in the same place and it's,you know, two thirds the size
and it has mostly drive-throughbusiness.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (12:23):
Exactly, and what you mean.
Gary Pageau (12:29):
And it's one of those things where I think they
would say well, the trends are,people are doing more drive-thru
, and I would say well, you're.
Basically that's.
The message you're sending themis that it's only for
drive-thru.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (12:34):
Yeah, so we did.
You know we do a lot of studiesto understand consumer dynamics
and behavior, so we did a bigstudy in the banking industry
that mirrors the study in thefood service industry.
And this is the insight themore you move consumers to
online banking, the less loyalthey are to you.
Gary Pageau (12:51):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (12:52):
The most loyal customers are those that
use all your channels, and Iwould say fast food and fast
casual is the same situation.
The more they use all yourchannels, not just take out, the
more loyal they're going to beto you, and so that's part of
that again emotional connection,a sense of belonging.
They're moving consumers awayfrom that sense of belonging.
Gary Pageau (13:15):
Well, spinning this to the photography industry,
what is more emotional than thatright that people's memories
and presenting people's picturesand sharing them, and all that?
What would be your advice for,let's say, an independent photo
store who's been in a communityfor a while 10, 15, maybe 20
(13:36):
years and you feel like you'regetting stale, you think
everyone knows who you are, andall that.
What would be your first stepswith someone like that?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (13:47):
Well, you're talking to the guy that
invented the Kodak Image Center.
Gary Pageau (13:51):
I am indeed.
Yes, I knew that.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (13:53):
We're the firm that invented and it went
global, and we're also the firmthat invented the Kodak
KolorKins.
We invented those characters tocreate those emotional
connections, and so what I wouldsay to the camera operators is
this is service is reallyimportant.
Product selection, service,price are really important, but
they're not your drivers ofgrowth.
(14:14):
Your drivers of growth isallowing those customers to
share their experiences usingyour equipment, your products,
as part of their social networkand giving you a plug on how you
enable them to do this.
So it needs to move fromtransaction We've got to sell
more cameras this week.
(14:34):
We've got to send more lenses,we've got to send some more of
this or that to what is thatexperience?
What's that experience whenthey come to your store and
what's that experience afterthey left and they bought your
product, and how do the two tietogether?
Now do you create thatemotional connection back to
your brand?
Because people don't rememberthe features and benefits of a
retail experience like features,products, services.
(14:56):
They remember how you made themfeel.
So, how are you making yourcustomers feel, and what is that
experience that delivers that?
Gary Pageau (15:04):
So when you were developing the Kodak Image
Centers around the world, I meanthere was, you know, like we
were talking prior to therecording.
You know it didn't really takeoff here in the US to a great
extent, but there was wildlysuccessful in other regions of
the world.
Was that part of the mandate?
Was that emotional connection,or was it just hey, we want to
(15:25):
drop the Kodak brand everywherebecause it sells more film or
was it just?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (15:29):
hey, we want to drop the Kodak brand
everywhere because it sells morefilm.
Oh, it's both.
Obviously, I wanted to leveragethe brand equity Kodak had in
the marketplace for theseindependent dealers who are
getting into the mini labbusiness, as you call.
That was the big thing, but itwas also.
We had a concept that nevertook flight called memory stores
, and memory stores were reallyabout how do you take
photography and imagery andapply it to merchandise.
(15:51):
So I think a lot of what'smissed in the marketplace is how
do you merchandise memories,how do you make it tangible and
marketable, and so that was howthe whole idea that you could
put it on mugs, you can put iton t-shirts, it could be a
birthday you can createdifferent settings, digital
(16:11):
backgrounds.
So it was this idea of making alink between memories and how it
applies to people's lives, andI think that's the opportunity
for photo studios is how do you?
You know, especially thosetargeting the general consumer.
You know, especially thosetargeting the general consumer.
I mean, you've got, you've gotlike Henry's here, which are
(16:34):
really upscale, sophisticatedcamera retailer.
What they're selling isexpertise.
You know, come here, we'regoing to give you advice, expert
advice, because we're allshooters, we all take pictures.
But it's that relationship youbuild with that expert and the
knowledge that they impart onyou to allow you to explore your
full capabilities that makes itwork.
Gary Pageau (16:51):
I think one of the challenges we have as an
industry in the photo businessis you're not selling a
prepackaged piece of goods,you're really selling somebody's
memories and to actually have atransformation happen, where
you're taking those pixels andyou're transforming them onto a
product, right, whether it's acanvas print or a metal print or
(17:14):
a mug or whatever and it's verydifficult to convey that online
, right?
So you have to do it physicallyin stores, but there's so many
retailers who are pushing peopleonline.
What are your thoughts on that?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (17:30):
Well, I'll come back to say that online
sales have plateaued.
They're at 17%.
They were much higher duringCOVID.
Will they grow?
Yeah, but most retailers who'vegot into e-commerce are losing
money on the platforms.
Only the large, like Walmart's,making money, not sure.
Target is, maybe they are, butmost retailers who have entered
(17:53):
the e-commerce are actuallylosing money.
Cost of distribution, cost ofreturns, those are killers on
margin.
So you're, and you're alsoappealing to only a small
segment of the population andthey're your most, they're your
least loyal customers.
So think of this You're goingto spend all that money in a
channel where you're going toappeal to your least loyal
(18:16):
customers.
Gary Pageau (18:17):
And probably most price sensitive.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (18:19):
And most price sensitive and where
Walmart's going to have yourwheel of the barrel.
Erin Manning (18:23):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (18:24):
Yeah, so not a good idea.
Gary Pageau (18:26):
So how would you recommend, since you do have
some experience in the photochannel, to get people to get
that traffic in the store from abranding standpoint right, not
advertising, but you know how doyou build that community?
I mean, people are tryingclasses, they're trying photo
walks, they're trying all ofthose kind of things which I
(18:50):
think are having a degree ofsuccess.
But what are some of yourthoughts?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (18:54):
Well, I think it starts fundamentally
with the sense of belonging, andso creating a sense of
belonging and what I mean bythat is having your social
strategy to drive brandambassadors, because they're the
ones that are going to speakabout your brand to a broader
spectrum.
They're the ones that havecredibility in the marketplace
about why they would shop atyour store.
(19:17):
And so I first start focusingon how do I create social
engagement?
How do I create brandambassadors?
What is the role of the storeto drive that?
What's the role of my websiteto drive that?
Sure, it starts with socialselling first.
Believe it or not, it's adifferent paradigm, because now
more and more consumers arebuying that online, they're
(19:37):
buying through social mediaplatforms.
Gary Pageau (19:39):
Right, they're buying through recommendations
at least.
Yeah exactly.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (19:42):
And so that's where I would start and I
would leverage all the otherbrand touch points to drive the
consumer to that socialengagement and brand and brand
ambassador vantage and thatwould drive.
And then you say, ok, what,what are the within those other
dynamics, those other brandtouch points, what are the
strategies to make that happen?
(20:03):
Ok, giving online, givingcourses inside your store,
that's a great platform becausethat's networking in that sense
of belonging.
But the mistake they make ishow do you take that and link it
back to social Right?
There's a break there, it's notseamless.
And then, if you look at allthe other activities, how those
drive social engagement, Right.
(20:26):
Complete and the other mistakethat most organizations make
these independent camera stores.
They have great ideas becausethey're entrepreneurs you know
it's the shiny new thing andthey get excited about right but
they're not sustainable.
Like, how long have you beendoing this podcast?
Gary Pageau (20:42):
Oh, this one.
This is a five and a half years.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (20:44):
All right, right.
If you started this podcast andthen gave it a break for six
months and then started overagain and gave it a break for
six months, would you besuccessful?
Gary Pageau (20:54):
No, of course not.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (20:55):
So why would they?
Gary Pageau (20:56):
they're doing the same.
Some would say I'm notsuccessful now, but I have you
on, so I have to be somewhatsuccessful.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (21:03):
There you go.
Well, you're successful now.
But if you think you know oneof the key factors, if you ask
me, you know what?
What?
What is going to drive success?
It's focus and persistent on afocused strategy.
Right, and persistent is thekey word.
You know, they start greatinitiatives, they have these
workshops.
It's driven by one employeewho's passionate, who's really
(21:25):
involved, and then they move onto another job and then, all of
a sudden, the whole thing justcraters and there's a void Right
.
Gary Pageau (21:32):
Yeah, that, no, I've seen that happen.
Right, it does happen where youknow.
Sometimes even I've seen itwhere the the owner of the
company has like an employee whogets almost they get a
following right within theircommunity because they're the
person who does like the film,photo walks or they do certain
things.
They almost see that employeeas a threat and they don't want
(21:55):
them involved anymore.
They change their job.
It's like, oh, you need to dothis, and then that whole
experience just drops away no,no, I think that's the biggest
mistake, that now don't get mewrong.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (22:06):
you need to set the guardrails on what's
acceptable practice for anorganization so that you don't
get slammed in the communitybecause of these unacceptable
photograph images appearing oran approach that is hard sell
and not community driven.
But once you set thoseguardrails, let me ask you a
(22:27):
question how do you achievebrand ambassadors if you don't
allow your employees to be brandambassadors?
Erin Manning (22:34):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (22:34):
Right, I mean, by putting those you know
handcuffs on them, you'relimiting your ability to drive
growth.
Gary Pageau (22:42):
Sure, how often do you think a store should be
refreshing their look inside?
Right, I'm not talking aboutthe total rebrand, but you know
moving things around or whatever, because you always hear about
that.
It's like you know, everyquarter I got to change it up.
What are your thoughts on likestore refreshes inside?
Again, I'm not talking aboutlike a rebrand, I'm just talking
(23:04):
about, like you know,refreshing the merch and all
that.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (23:07):
Well, typically today the model model
is this is a retail or refresherstore when the lease is up, so
they'll either negotiate withthe landlord some enticement to
renew the lease and in therethere's some dollars for
refreshing the store so thatthey're hedging their
investments, and typicallythat's a seven year, five, seven
(23:35):
to 10 year lease.
You know, depending on if you'rein a high, high, high traffic
mall, then it'll be five years.
If you're in a street side, itcould be 10 years, right, and
that typically historically hasbeen kind of the cycle of
renovation, if you want, orbrand refresh if you want, but
that's a mistake.
You want, or a brand refresh ifyou want, but that's a mistake,
because consumers, now there'slots of competition online and
other retailers and otherchannels of retailers that these
(23:57):
camera stores are competingwith, so you're constantly
having to say come in, we'vedone something different, come
in, we've done somethingdifferent.
So that's on the renovationside.
So I'd say five years.
Start thinking at year four,start planning for year five.
But the other thing is that youknow we do a lot of work in the
electronic retailing and one ofthe key principles is create
(24:19):
some key strike zones as theyenter the store and some focal
walls where those are constantlychanging, like with the feature
of the month, the week, and saynew product of the week,
product of the month or employeepick.
But you can change because whatyou're trying to do is
communicate to a customer whomay have entered your store
(24:42):
Because you think of photography, there's getting getting the
images process, which could becyclical, or buying buying film
to buying equipment, equipment.
They're not buying that everyweek, they're buying that maybe
once a year, maybe every twoyears or maybe every three years
.
And so you're losing that cycleof relationship.
That happens.
So by having something new inthe window, something that
(25:04):
entices they may not want to buyit, into something that entices
they may not want to buy it,but the fact they walk into your
store gives the salespeople anopportunity to continue that
relationship so that when theyare going to buy, you're the
place you're going to go to.
Gary Pageau (25:17):
You know, and the other thing is is not
necessarily make it about aproduct, right, because I mean
I'll talk to retailers and say,hey, oh, the new Nikon's out.
So that's what I'm going topush.
But, you know, I think a reallygood analogy here might be like
independent bookstore, becauseone of the things that's really
cool about independentbookstores is you walk in and
they'll have a shelf or a tablewhere it's our staff picks, yeah
(25:39):
, and the staff will, you know,write a little card.
Hey, I used, I read this bookand I think you'll like it, kind
of thing.
And I may not be interested init, but at least my perception
of the bookstore is much higher,because now I think at least
their staff reads books right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (25:55):
Yeah.
So I'd give you another, toyour audience, another key
insight.
So we did this another bigstudy on the importance of
community.
Is being part of the communitya key driver of loyalty?
And the answer is yes, aresounding yes.
And so when you think of theseindependent retailers there's a
camera store operators yourcompetitive advantage is you're
(26:19):
in the community, you're not achain.
And even if you're a chain,you're a small chain, you're
part of the community.
And so amplifying yourcommitment to the community is
critical.
And so having a photo contestwhere you actually showcase
people from the community takingpictures, it's brilliant.
You're celebrating the talent inthe community, you're elevating
(26:40):
photography and people who arepassionate about photography in
the community.
Right, and so highlightingphotographs and the name of the
photographer or a picture of thephotographer of that individual
is critical.
They live in this neighborhood.
So, again, anything you can doas an operator, a camera store
owner, to tie your activities tothe community sponsoring a
(27:04):
local baseball team, a localbaseball team those are really
important, and you beingresponsible for taking a picture
of the team those are allreally important things that
drive growth and loyalty, butalso to help you differentiate
from the big chains.
Gary Pageau (27:20):
Yeah, because, like you said at least, in photo
unless you're talking aboutWalgreen or CVS or someone,
there's not a lot of largechains to compete with anymore.
There's not, but then you thinkof when you start thinking of
equipment you've got Walmart,Then you're competing nationally
with B&H and Adorama and allthose folks yeah.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (27:38):
Exactly so.
You're competing and those arebig ticket items with some
reasonable margins.
It's not the frequency, but youwant to make sure that when
they're making those, those bigticket buying decisions coming
to you, but also, yeah, the idealike at the end of the day, the
mobile device is kind of, in away, undermined the industry.
(28:00):
It's actually elevatedphotography.
So everyone takes pictures, butit's elevated average
photography, not qualityphotography.
And so NAPL may argue this point, but I don't care.
The idea here is that if youcelebrate people who do
(28:22):
exceptional photography, who arenot professional photographers,
you're communicating thateveryone can be that way, so
you're becoming an inclusivemodel to let more people
participate in the photography.
Gary Pageau (28:35):
Aspirational.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (28:37):
Yeah.
So I'll tell you a little story.
So we were doing a big projectfor Eastman Kodak.
It was a chain of portraitstores in California, your
Expression we were doing therebranding, reinvention,
leveraging Kodak's technology aspart of the infrastructure, and
we were doing research andwe're asking consumers why
aren't you getting your portraitdone Like, why is it?
(28:57):
Well, you know what?
And the common, common commentwas well, all those pictures of
those people, they're all models.
I'm not good enough.
I'm not good enough to betaking, to have a professional
photograph taken of me, right?
So what did we do?
In the windows, we took apicture of a mother and daughter
(29:18):
, a picture of a gentleman, abusiness person.
We said John Smith fromBakersfield.
Erin Manning (29:25):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (29:26):
Martha and Rose from XYZ and we humanized.
We said you don't have to lookgood to have a portrait taken,
and I think it's.
The same thing goes tophotography.
You don't have to aspire to bea professional photography to
take enjoyment in takingpictures.
Gary Pageau (29:44):
Right, and then doing something with them.
Right, because I think thetaking pictures part there's no
barrier to that, right.
Like you said, smartphones areeverywhere and I think to some
extent it's diminished, if youwill, the utility of utility of
photography.
Right, because you are justtaking pictures of receipts and
everything right, there's nocost really to do it and I think
(30:04):
there's actually been abacklash um to that where you
have people moving towards film,back to using film and doing
prints, where they may not havebeen doing prints longer because
they want that authenticexperience.
Because one of the criticisms Iheard about is that with
smartphone cameras is thepictures are too good.
They're fixing too many of theflaws.
(30:24):
They don't even look like humanbeings anymore, with some of
the processing involved.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (30:29):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
And then in independent camerastores or the doorway, the
promoters, if you want, ofreturning to the art of
photography, right, and that'swhat we're talking about here.
We're talking about the art ofphotography right.
And the art is making investmentin the cameras you use, making
(30:49):
investment in the quality of thefilms and then, obviously, the
finishing of those images, fromphoto finishing to application
to merchandise or within apicture book, right, right, and
so that's the opportunity andthe good news is, you're right,
there's a revival.
There's a revival in vinylrecords, right, I mean there's a
whole resurgence of things.
(31:11):
I mean, we do work with Fujiright now.
We do all of their packagingfor their instant cameras.
There's a huge revival ofinstant photography with Fuji,
huge yeah.
And they're competing with, youknow, with mobile devices.
Gary Pageau (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a big business for them,
is the Instax business, yeah, sospinning that back to Kodak a
little bit, we were talking alittle bit about kind of
branding sort of.
You know, kodak has so muchbrand equity in the consumer
mind right, the Kodak momentsand they do some licensing
business right where they dolicense it.
But I've always felt thatthere's more to be done with
(31:51):
that.
What are some of your thoughtson what, like, kodak could do
with that equity in themarketplace?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (31:58):
They moved away from Kodak moments, moments
like sharing memories, whichwas the core equity.
They lost sight that sharingthose memories didn't have to be
.
Gary Pageau (32:08):
Well, and to be honest, they spun that off right
and it's a whole other thingnow.
But yeah, you're right, theykind of abandoned that, yeah.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (32:15):
And that was because it was silver halide
technology.
They limited their view thatthe end benefit to the consumer
wasn't that it was silver halide, that was just a vehicle for
the consumer to capture thosespecial memories.
They lost sight of that, butput that aside.
So I would say the Kodak, if Iwas sitting in their boardrooms
today and not saying well, Onthe 19th floor On the 19th floor
(32:36):
.
The last time I was there, thatfloor was empty.
But anyways, that aside, Iwould say people are capturing
an immense amount of pictures.
Erin Manning (32:49):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (32:51):
An immense amount of pictures.
So the ability of storing thoseimages is, you know, with Apple
, demonstrated.
It's not the device, it's whatthe device connects to and how
that connection control helpspeople control their lives.
(33:11):
I think there's an opportunityfrom that perspective of being
able to control their content,if you like, in a way that's
better organized.
I'd say that's one.
I think the other one is theyhave to get back to promoting
the art of photography.
You need to take an advocateposition to celebrate where they
were, celebrate the art ofphotography.
(33:33):
Kodak survived.
Their medical device divisioncontinues to do well, I mean.
Our x-ray business continues todo well, I mean, although a lot
of it's now been digitized andAI, but it's the consumer side,
it's celebrating the art ofphotography.
They need to bring that back.
Gary Pageau (33:56):
So, speaking of, we haven't really talked much
about the the book.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour new book, which I think
just came out in may, which kindof encapsulates a lot of what
we were talking about?
Can you talk a little bit about, uh, the book?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (34:07):
yeah.
So we coined the phrase uh,blink factor in 1990.
We're doing work for pizza hutin the us and people were
calling it Red Roof.
And so we went back and lookedwhat does that mean?
Well, people make instantdecisions based on color and
shape.
And so I coined the phrase theblink factor and then
(34:28):
trademarked it in 1996.
That was 10 years before theblink book came out by Malcolm
Caldwell.
This is my fourth book.
I wanted to provide a legacy tomy employees and to my clients
and to business owners like theones who are watching this show,
to say you know what?
The future isn't functional,the future is emotional.
(34:49):
You're competing on price,you're competing on promotions,
you're competing on features.
You're never going to win.
It's a declining, it'scommoditized model.
You need to win on the emotions, because 80% of all buying
decisions are emotionally drivenand they're done in less than a
split second.
And so owning that split secondand making those emotional
(35:10):
connections.
And so how do you do that?
We created seven tenets and theybuild on each other.
For the first tenet, it'sreally understanding what is
your core emotional equity,what's that value proposition
that's emotive, that you own,that you need to leverage?
Number two is how do you takethose emotional equities,
translate it to design thecustomer experience, the
employee experience, thepackaging, the signing?
(35:32):
You know your identity, allthose things.
And then you go into what's thebrand story?
Right, we learn throughstorytelling.
What's the story you're tellingyour customers?
What's the story you're tellingyour employees?
How is that tied to your valueproposition and to your
experience?
Are you using your store as acanvas to tell that story?
(35:53):
Then it's personas.
We call it context.
Who are your core target group?
What's not just yourdemographics?
Gary Pageau (35:59):
or psychographics, Then it's personas.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (36:00):
Can't we call it context?
Who are your core target group?
What's not just yourdemographics or psychographics,
but what's your lifestyle needsLike?
If you think of photography,there's segments of
photographers, there'sprofessional freelancers,
there's professionals, and thenyou've got weekend amateurs and
then you've got everyday usersand then you've got occasional
users and those have differentneeds and priorities.
(36:21):
And understanding those, youcan build products around it and
service models around it and bethat expert.
And then from there, once youdefine their personas and their
customer's story, you get intoreally understanding what are
the key factors driving theirmotivations.
And that's really aboutunderstanding what are the
(36:41):
metrics and the sense ofbelonging.
So the next tenet, sense ofbelonging, is now you've told
the story.
How do you get them involved inthat story?
How do you get them to tellthat story?
And from there, how do youmeasure that you're successful?
And the last tenet is how doyou future-proof your brand?
How do you avoid what Kodak did?
How do you avoid that you gotblindsided?
(37:01):
How do you avoid howBlockbuster got blindsided?
You know.
How do you avoid, you know,compusa.
How do you avoid these brandsthat were dominant in the
marketplace, that got disruptedby emerging technologies and
knowledge?
So how do you stay relevant inthose?
So those are the seven tenetstechnologies and knowledge.
Gary Pageau (37:20):
So how do you stay relevant?
So those are the seven tenets.
So where can people go to?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (37:27):
learn more about what you do and the book.
Where can people get moreinformation?
Well, they can go to ourwebsite, wwwsldcom.
If you go there, you go underresource, you'll see or actually
on the landing page, you'll seea page with a book.
You can actually download forfree the first chapter of the
book and then you can decide ifyou want to read further.
Gary Pageau (37:50):
Awesome, well, thank you so much.
It's been a great conversationtalking about this.
When we booked this call, Ididn't realize you had all this
background with Kodak ImageCenters and all that.
It's been a great refresher,but it's also, you know, not
necessarily a look back but alook forward, and I really
appreciate your time.
Thank you so much.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (38:04):
Thank you, Gary.
Erin Manning (38:07):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, gary Pegeau.
The Dead Pixel Society podcastis brought to you by MediaClip,
advertag Printing andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:17):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
I'm your host, gary Pegeau, andtoday we're joined by
Jean-Pierre Lacroix withShikotani Lacroix Design, and he
is a longtime branding expertand in the pre-show, which I
wish I would have recorded, welearned we probably crossed
paths probably 20 some years agoin the industry, but we're not
(00:39):
really talking about that rightnow.
Hello Jean-Pierre, how are youtoday?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (00:45):
Fantastic.
Gary Pageau (00:46):
So how did you get into this branding business?
I mean, you've been in a longtime.
What energized you to get intothis?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (00:53):
Well, I couldn't find a job.
I'm just kidding.
No, you know, I grew up on anAir Force base.
My dad was in the Air Force.
I grew up in Germany, actually,and when we came back to Canada
my dad got into the electronicsbusiness and then we got into
the garden business and I alwayshad an affinity for the arts.
I was painting signs on thetrucks and on the farm signs,
(01:14):
but I also had an affinity forbeing in the Air Force and so I
applied for two colleges.
I applied for ROC, the RoyalMilitary College in Kingston,
and applied for a graphic designcourse at a local community
college in Toronto and I saidwhoever responds to my
application first is where I'mgoing to go.
(01:35):
And obviously Sheridan Collegeresponded and I never made it
into ROC.
My grades weren't good enough.
So you know, fate had it.
I ended up being a designer andhave never regretted making
that decision, although designhas changed dramatically a lot
for the good, and I don't miss.
I spend my time flying.
I fly about 200,000 miles ayear because we have offices in
(01:57):
China and we do work around theworld.
So I got my Air Force value outof business travel.
Gary Pageau (02:04):
There you go.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (02:05):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (02:06):
Cool.
So one of the things I want totalk to you about is branding,
because one of the things thatthe misinterpretations I see
with people when they talk aboutbranding is the thing like a
logo is a brand.
Right, it's the Coca-Cola logoor something like that, and it's
not that at all.
So, in your world, when you'retalking to a potential client or
(02:27):
someone about branding, whatare you talking about?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (02:30):
Well, we start with the foundation of a
brand, which is what is thevalue proposition that product
service offers the consumersthat they're willing to pay for.
That is different than thecompetition.
So we'll start there.
We say what is your valueproposition.
But we go deeper.
We don't just say what's yourvalue proposition.
(02:51):
We say what is your functionalvalue proposition?
There's also what's youremotional value proposition,
because we know that 80% of allbuying decisions are done
emotionally and they're done ina split second.
Hence the think blank book thatI just released in the
marketplace.
It's about making thatemotional connection.
That's where we start, becausethat's the foundation.
(03:12):
You know, if the foundation ofa house is shaped or is not
solid, the house is going tocrumble sooner or later, and so
that's where we start.
Then we say how do you takethat value proposition and
translate it into thepersonification of that value
proposition, which is, how doyou apply it to a logo?
How do you apply it topackaging?
(03:33):
How do you apply it to thewebsite, the mobile app, all
these different what we callconsumer touch points?
But it really starts with whereare we in the marketplace?
What value do we bring?
Erin Manning (03:46):
How is?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (03:46):
that relevant to our target group and
where most brands get intotrouble is that they've stayed
static.
They've lost their relevancywith their consumers as the
consumer market shifted.
Younger generations havedifferent values.
They're very focused on purposebrands and what's your purpose
(04:08):
in the marketplace.
And if brands haven't stayedrelevant with these trends,
they're in trouble.
And there's this great modelcalled the brand curve, which is
an S curve and most brands dotheir transformational.
When they're in crisis, at thetop, at the peak relevancy, it's
too late.
(04:29):
Once that brand startsdeclining, it's very hard.
Gravity takes hold.
It's very hard for them tochange.
So the trick is, as the brandis growing, as they're building
their equity in the marketplace,it's constantly evaluating are
we relevant?
Do we remain relevant?
Is there anything that's goingto change that relevancy?
And that's what branding is allabout.
Gary Pageau (04:49):
Well in the news, recently we've had a major
branding error that everyone'sbeen talking about, which is the
whole cracker barrel fiasco.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (04:59):
Now it seems to me like they did what
you just said.
Gary Pageau (05:01):
They were in the market for a long time and then
they decided they were going tomake themselves relevant, and
then now they've had to walkthat back.
What was your perception of, asthis thing was unfolding in
real time?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (05:14):
Gary, the big mistake they've done is that
they did not evaluate theiremotional equities that they own
with the consumers.
Right, you know, they're veryfixated on going after the
younger generation and mostbrands are saying this.
They're saying okay, how do weappeal to Gen Z and Gen Xers?
How is our brand remainingrelevant to them?
But don't forget your corecustomers, because if you forget
(05:37):
those, you're basicallylaunching a new brand, which is
basically what Cracker Barreldid.
They lost the equity of theirbrand, their emotional equity.
They moved away from thecharacter and their logo.
If you saw the rendering or thepictures of the inside of their
restaurants, they're stark,they're pretty plain.
There's no sense of discovery.
You know the sense of shoppingexperience that the old Cracker
(06:00):
Barrel had.
I remember taking my daughterand my wife to a Cracker Barrel
in Florida and it was a wholeexperience and it was catchy.
It wasn't slick but it wasfamiliar, it was comfortable,
the food was great, the servicewas excellent and it was an
experience.
They lost that and that's whythey're getting dinged.
I mean kudos to the CEO thatshe's backtracking this strategy
(06:22):
.
Going back to the basics basicsbecause they have to do that,
but they're not the only ones.
Jcpenney, remember thegentleman from Apple went and
became president and they're themistake, and this is the
mistake most brandtransformations do.
We have this model we call thetrust ladder.
You have a vision of where youwant to be and JCPenney went
from where they want to be tothe where they are, to where
(06:45):
they want to be in one step andthe reality.
They should have stepped it andbuilt the trust with the
customers along that journey,and that's what Cracker Barrel
did also.
Maybe it would have been goodjust to start with the logo.
Make a logo change, but keepthe inside.
Gary Pageau (06:59):
Most of these are rolled out gradually when you
see them.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (07:04):
No, they didn't do that.
So they lost the core equity,the emotional equity of their
brand, which is back to theirvalue proposition.
They destroyed their valueproposition.
Gary Pageau (07:12):
So the interesting thing I think is, as I was like
most business people journalistsreading this stuff, kind of you
did some research and they werestruggling right, cracker
Barrel was struggling,especially post-COVID.
They tried some home deliveryand that helped.
So I think they realized theythought it was a branding or
(07:33):
awareness issue to, like yousaid, get Gen Z and Gen X to
leave their basements and cometo Cracker Barrel.
But what should they focus oninstead?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (07:50):
They should have first understood what are
the core equities of theexperience that are the
foundation of their brand andhow those things link to this
sense of authenticity, sense ofbelonging, which is our sixth
tenet in our bar, the fifthtenet in my book, sense of
belonging.
They lost that sight and hadthey looked at that, they would
have been able to create amodern experience.
(08:11):
And the other insight I wouldsay is this when you think we do
work around the world, so ifyou're trying to appeal to a Gen
Z, Gen X, it has to be a selfiemoment.
Think of the new design forCracker.
Gary Pageau (08:30):
Barrel?
There is no selfie moments.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (08:31):
There's no situation where people can take
a selfie.
The old stores, the old concept, the old restaurant concept
there's tons of selfie momentsin there, where you're shopping
in the store, taking up theseunique items that you would
never find the store taking up,you know, these unique items
that you would never findanywhere else and taking a
picture of you with it.
They lost that.
They lost the selfie moments.
Erin Manning (08:51):
Right.
Gary Pageau (08:52):
And it seems like that's in general.
What's happening to kind of thefast food and fast casual
industry is that most of theirstores are kind of being denuded
of personality.
They're just boxes.
If you look at a Taco Bell anda KFC and a McDonald's and a
(09:13):
Burger King, they're allbasically boxes.
Right, there's no moreplaylists and their menus are
becoming radically similar.
Right, I'm waiting for TacoBell to bring out burgers one of
these days, because they're alladding each other's products.
What do you think about that,that of neutralization of that,
those emotional experiences?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (09:30):
well, number one is we did a huge
study this year and you can findon our website on the food
service industry and what isactually driving.
Why is it that chick-fil-a isso successful, and and some of
the other chains are sosuccessful as, and the brands
like McDonald's and Starbucksand KFC are struggling.
(09:50):
Why is that happening?
As we dug into that and what wefound out is this you have two
factors.
You have what we call attritiondetractors.
These are things that stopcustomers from leaving your
brand, but they're not the onesthat are going to drive that
customer to come more often.
So they'll always think of youfor burgers, mcdonald's, but
(10:11):
instead of going to McDonald'sonce a week, they're going to go
to McDonald's once a month.
It's killing the business.
And then there's what we callthe growth factors and it's one
sentence, it's share, shareablemoments.
Shareable emotional moments iswhen you look at these brands
chick-fil-a, chick-fil-a.
When you walk in, you'regreeted by the owner of the
(10:34):
restaurant and they're thankingyou for coming in.
Name me one other fast foodchain or fast casual chain where
the manager's at the doorthanking you for the business,
picking up empty trays andwalking around the tables and
asking you are you enjoying yourmeal Like maybe one other fast
(10:54):
casual or casual or fast foodrestaurant chain that does that
Zero?
So they've lost this emotionalconnection and they've lost the
ability of sharing thatemotional connection with their
friends, because that's wheretrue brand loyalty is.
Brand loyalty is you're willingto wear on a tattoo the Harley
(11:16):
Davidson logo, right?
You're willing to be a badgefor that brand.
People are not walking aroundas a badge with McDonald's.
Now I have to say Starbucksstill has.
We just finished a big studylooking at Starbucks.
They still have a lot ofemotional equity in the
marketplace, but they lost theirbadge value because they went
(11:38):
from being an experience thethird place to being a
transactional place wheretakeout is more important than
dine-in.
And if you look at Starbucksnew designs.
They shrunk the whole frontseating area.
They made the takeout area muchlarger.
So what they're saying toconsumers is we're no longer an
experience transaction and whenyou become a transaction, you
(12:04):
lost the customer.
Gary Pageau (12:05):
Yeah, it doesn't make a difference Because I mean
, that's exactly what's happenedwith other restaurants, right?
I mean, if you look at a, youknow you can see where they
maybe knocked down an oldMcDonald's and they put up a new
one in the same place and it's,you know, two thirds the size
and it has mostly drive-throughbusiness.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (12:23):
Exactly, and what you mean.
Gary Pageau (12:29):
And it's one of those things where I think they
would say well, the trends are,people are doing more drive-thru
, and I would say well, you're.
Basically that's.
The message you're sending themis that it's only for
drive-thru.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (12:34):
Yeah, so we did.
You know we do a lot of studiesto understand consumer dynamics
and behavior, so we did a bigstudy in the banking industry
that mirrors the study in thefood service industry.
And this is the insight themore you move consumers to
online banking, the less loyalthey are to you.
Gary Pageau (12:51):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (12:52):
The most loyal customers are those that
use all your channels, and Iwould say fast food and fast
casual is the same situation.
The more they use all yourchannels, not just take out, the
more loyal they're going to beto you, and so that's part of
that again emotional connection,a sense of belonging.
They're moving consumers awayfrom that sense of belonging.
Gary Pageau (13:15):
Well, spinning this to the photography industry,
what is more emotional than thatright that people's memories
and presenting people's picturesand sharing them, and all that?
What would be your advice for,let's say, an independent photo
store who's been in a communityfor a while 10, 15, maybe 20
(13:36):
years and you feel like you'regetting stale, you think
everyone knows who you are, andall that.
What would be your first stepswith someone like that?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (13:47):
Well, you're talking to the guy that
invented the Kodak Image Center.
Gary Pageau (13:51):
I am indeed.
Yes, I knew that.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (13:53):
We're the firm that invented and it went
global, and we're also the firmthat invented the Kodak
KolorKins.
We invented those characters tocreate those emotional
connections, and so what I wouldsay to the camera operators is
this is service is reallyimportant.
Product selection, service,price are really important, but
they're not your drivers ofgrowth.
(14:14):
Your drivers of growth isallowing those customers to
share their experiences usingyour equipment, your products,
as part of their social networkand giving you a plug on how you
enable them to do this.
So it needs to move fromtransaction We've got to sell
more cameras this week.
(14:34):
We've got to send more lenses,we've got to send some more of
this or that to what is thatexperience?
What's that experience whenthey come to your store and
what's that experience afterthey left and they bought your
product, and how do the two tietogether?
Now do you create thatemotional connection back to
your brand?
Because people don't rememberthe features and benefits of a
retail experience like features,products, services.
(14:56):
They remember how you made themfeel.
So, how are you making yourcustomers feel, and what is that
experience that delivers that?
Gary Pageau (15:04):
So when you were developing the Kodak Image
Centers around the world, I meanthere was, you know, like we
were talking prior to therecording.
You know it didn't really takeoff here in the US to a great
extent, but there was wildlysuccessful in other regions of
the world.
Was that part of the mandate?
Was that emotional connection,or was it just hey, we want to
(15:25):
drop the Kodak brand everywherebecause it sells more film or
was it just?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (15:29):
hey, we want to drop the Kodak brand
everywhere because it sells morefilm.
Oh, it's both.
Obviously, I wanted to leveragethe brand equity Kodak had in
the marketplace for theseindependent dealers who are
getting into the mini labbusiness, as you call.
That was the big thing, but itwas also.
We had a concept that nevertook flight called memory stores
, and memory stores were reallyabout how do you take
photography and imagery andapply it to merchandise.
(15:51):
So I think a lot of what'smissed in the marketplace is how
do you merchandise memories,how do you make it tangible and
marketable, and so that was howthe whole idea that you could
put it on mugs, you can put iton t-shirts, it could be a
birthday you can createdifferent settings, digital
(16:11):
backgrounds.
So it was this idea of making alink between memories and how it
applies to people's lives, andI think that's the opportunity
for photo studios is how do you?
You know, especially thosetargeting the general consumer.
You know, especially thosetargeting the general consumer.
I mean, you've got, you've gotlike Henry's here, which are
(16:34):
really upscale, sophisticatedcamera retailer.
What they're selling isexpertise.
You know, come here, we'regoing to give you advice, expert
advice, because we're allshooters, we all take pictures.
But it's that relationship youbuild with that expert and the
knowledge that they impart onyou to allow you to explore your
full capabilities that makes itwork.
Gary Pageau (16:51):
I think one of the challenges we have as an
industry in the photo businessis you're not selling a
prepackaged piece of goods,you're really selling somebody's
memories and to actually have atransformation happen, where
you're taking those pixels andyou're transforming them onto a
product, right, whether it's acanvas print or a metal print or
(17:14):
a mug or whatever and it's verydifficult to convey that online
, right?
So you have to do it physicallyin stores, but there's so many
retailers who are pushing peopleonline.
What are your thoughts on that?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (17:30):
Well, I'll come back to say that online
sales have plateaued.
They're at 17%.
They were much higher duringCOVID.
Will they grow?
Yeah, but most retailers who'vegot into e-commerce are losing
money on the platforms.
Only the large, like Walmart's,making money, not sure.
Target is, maybe they are, butmost retailers who have entered
(17:53):
the e-commerce are actuallylosing money.
Cost of distribution, cost ofreturns, those are killers on
margin.
So you're, and you're alsoappealing to only a small
segment of the population andthey're your most, they're your
least loyal customers.
So think of this You're goingto spend all that money in a
channel where you're going toappeal to your least loyal
(18:16):
customers.
Gary Pageau (18:17):
And probably most price sensitive.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (18:19):
And most price sensitive and where
Walmart's going to have yourwheel of the barrel.
Erin Manning (18:23):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (18:24):
Yeah, so not a good idea.
Gary Pageau (18:26):
So how would you recommend, since you do have
some experience in the photochannel, to get people to get
that traffic in the store from abranding standpoint right, not
advertising, but you know how doyou build that community?
I mean, people are tryingclasses, they're trying photo
walks, they're trying all ofthose kind of things which I
(18:50):
think are having a degree ofsuccess.
But what are some of yourthoughts?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (18:54):
Well, I think it starts fundamentally
with the sense of belonging, andso creating a sense of
belonging and what I mean bythat is having your social
strategy to drive brandambassadors, because they're the
ones that are going to speakabout your brand to a broader
spectrum.
They're the ones that havecredibility in the marketplace
about why they would shop atyour store.
(19:17):
And so I first start focusingon how do I create social
engagement?
How do I create brandambassadors?
What is the role of the storeto drive that?
What's the role of my websiteto drive that?
Sure, it starts with socialselling first.
Believe it or not, it's adifferent paradigm, because now
more and more consumers arebuying that online, they're
(19:37):
buying through social mediaplatforms.
Gary Pageau (19:39):
Right, they're buying through recommendations
at least.
Yeah exactly.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (19:42):
And so that's where I would start and I
would leverage all the otherbrand touch points to drive the
consumer to that socialengagement and brand and brand
ambassador vantage and thatwould drive.
And then you say, ok, what,what are the within those other
dynamics, those other brandtouch points, what are the
strategies to make that happen?
(20:03):
Ok, giving online, givingcourses inside your store,
that's a great platform becausethat's networking in that sense
of belonging.
But the mistake they make ishow do you take that and link it
back to social Right?
There's a break there, it's notseamless.
And then, if you look at allthe other activities, how those
drive social engagement, Right.
(20:26):
Complete and the other mistakethat most organizations make
these independent camera stores.
They have great ideas becausethey're entrepreneurs you know
it's the shiny new thing andthey get excited about right but
they're not sustainable.
Like, how long have you beendoing this podcast?
Gary Pageau (20:42):
Oh, this one.
This is a five and a half years.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (20:44):
All right, right.
If you started this podcast andthen gave it a break for six
months and then started overagain and gave it a break for
six months, would you besuccessful?
Gary Pageau (20:54):
No, of course not.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (20:55):
So why would they?
Gary Pageau (20:56):
they're doing the same.
Some would say I'm notsuccessful now, but I have you
on, so I have to be somewhatsuccessful.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (21:03):
There you go.
Well, you're successful now.
But if you think you know oneof the key factors, if you ask
me, you know what?
What?
What is going to drive success?
It's focus and persistent on afocused strategy.
Right, and persistent is thekey word.
You know, they start greatinitiatives, they have these
workshops.
It's driven by one employeewho's passionate, who's really
(21:25):
involved, and then they move onto another job and then, all of
a sudden, the whole thing justcraters and there's a void Right
.
Gary Pageau (21:32):
Yeah, that, no, I've seen that happen.
Right, it does happen where youknow.
Sometimes even I've seen itwhere the the owner of the
company has like an employee whogets almost they get a
following right within theircommunity because they're the
person who does like the film,photo walks or they do certain
things.
They almost see that employeeas a threat and they don't want
(21:55):
them involved anymore.
They change their job.
It's like, oh, you need to dothis, and then that whole
experience just drops away no,no, I think that's the biggest
mistake, that now don't get mewrong.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (22:06):
you need to set the guardrails on what's
acceptable practice for anorganization so that you don't
get slammed in the communitybecause of these unacceptable
photograph images appearing oran approach that is hard sell
and not community driven.
But once you set thoseguardrails, let me ask you a
(22:27):
question how do you achievebrand ambassadors if you don't
allow your employees to be brandambassadors?
Erin Manning (22:34):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (22:34):
Right, I mean, by putting those you know
handcuffs on them, you'relimiting your ability to drive
growth.
Gary Pageau (22:42):
Sure, how often do you think a store should be
refreshing their look inside?
Right, I'm not talking aboutthe total rebrand, but you know
moving things around or whatever, because you always hear about
that.
It's like you know, everyquarter I got to change it up.
What are your thoughts on likestore refreshes inside?
Again, I'm not talking aboutlike a rebrand, I'm just talking
(23:04):
about, like you know,refreshing the merch and all
that.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (23:07):
Well, typically today the model model
is this is a retail or refresherstore when the lease is up, so
they'll either negotiate withthe landlord some enticement to
renew the lease and in therethere's some dollars for
refreshing the store so thatthey're hedging their
investments, and typicallythat's a seven year, five, seven
(23:35):
to 10 year lease.
You know, depending on if you'rein a high, high, high traffic
mall, then it'll be five years.
If you're in a street side, itcould be 10 years, right, and
that typically historically hasbeen kind of the cycle of
renovation, if you want, orbrand refresh if you want, but
that's a mistake.
You want, or a brand refresh ifyou want, but that's a mistake,
because consumers, now there'slots of competition online and
other retailers and otherchannels of retailers that these
(23:57):
camera stores are competingwith, so you're constantly
having to say come in, we'vedone something different, come
in, we've done somethingdifferent.
So that's on the renovationside.
So I'd say five years.
Start thinking at year four,start planning for year five.
But the other thing is that youknow we do a lot of work in the
electronic retailing and one ofthe key principles is create
(24:19):
some key strike zones as theyenter the store and some focal
walls where those are constantlychanging, like with the feature
of the month, the week, and saynew product of the week,
product of the month or employeepick.
But you can change because whatyou're trying to do is
communicate to a customer whomay have entered your store
(24:42):
Because you think of photography, there's getting getting the
images process, which could becyclical, or buying buying film
to buying equipment, equipment.
They're not buying that everyweek, they're buying that maybe
once a year, maybe every twoyears or maybe every three years
.
And so you're losing that cycleof relationship.
That happens.
So by having something new inthe window, something that
(25:04):
entices they may not want to buyit, into something that entices
they may not want to buy it,but the fact they walk into your
store gives the salespeople anopportunity to continue that
relationship so that when theyare going to buy, you're the
place you're going to go to.
Gary Pageau (25:17):
You know, and the other thing is is not
necessarily make it about aproduct, right, because I mean
I'll talk to retailers and say,hey, oh, the new Nikon's out.
So that's what I'm going topush.
But, you know, I think a reallygood analogy here might be like
independent bookstore, becauseone of the things that's really
cool about independentbookstores is you walk in and
they'll have a shelf or a tablewhere it's our staff picks, yeah
(25:39):
, and the staff will, you know,write a little card.
Hey, I used, I read this bookand I think you'll like it, kind
of thing.
And I may not be interested init, but at least my perception
of the bookstore is much higher,because now I think at least
their staff reads books right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (25:55):
Yeah.
So I'd give you another, toyour audience, another key
insight.
So we did this another bigstudy on the importance of
community.
Is being part of the communitya key driver of loyalty?
And the answer is yes, aresounding yes.
And so when you think of theseindependent retailers there's a
camera store operators yourcompetitive advantage is you're
(26:19):
in the community, you're not achain.
And even if you're a chain,you're a small chain, you're
part of the community.
And so amplifying yourcommitment to the community is
critical.
And so having a photo contestwhere you actually showcase
people from the community takingpictures, it's brilliant.
You're celebrating the talent inthe community, you're elevating
(26:40):
photography and people who arepassionate about photography in
the community.
Right, and so highlightingphotographs and the name of the
photographer or a picture of thephotographer of that individual
is critical.
They live in this neighborhood.
So, again, anything you can doas an operator, a camera store
owner, to tie your activities tothe community sponsoring a
(27:04):
local baseball team, a localbaseball team those are really
important, and you beingresponsible for taking a picture
of the team those are allreally important things that
drive growth and loyalty, butalso to help you differentiate
from the big chains.
Gary Pageau (27:20):
Yeah, because, like you said at least, in photo
unless you're talking aboutWalgreen or CVS or someone,
there's not a lot of largechains to compete with anymore.
There's not, but then you thinkof when you start thinking of
equipment you've got Walmart,Then you're competing nationally
with B&H and Adorama and allthose folks yeah.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (27:38):
Exactly so.
You're competing and those arebig ticket items with some
reasonable margins.
It's not the frequency, but youwant to make sure that when
they're making those, those bigticket buying decisions coming
to you, but also, yeah, the idealike at the end of the day, the
mobile device is kind of, in away, undermined the industry.
(28:00):
It's actually elevatedphotography.
So everyone takes pictures, butit's elevated average
photography, not qualityphotography.
And so NAPL may argue this point, but I don't care.
The idea here is that if youcelebrate people who do
(28:22):
exceptional photography, who arenot professional photographers,
you're communicating thateveryone can be that way, so
you're becoming an inclusivemodel to let more people
participate in the photography.
Gary Pageau (28:35):
Aspirational.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (28:37):
Yeah.
So I'll tell you a little story.
So we were doing a big projectfor Eastman Kodak.
It was a chain of portraitstores in California, your
Expression we were doing therebranding, reinvention,
leveraging Kodak's technology aspart of the infrastructure, and
we were doing research andwe're asking consumers why
aren't you getting your portraitdone Like, why is it?
(28:57):
Well, you know what?
And the common, common commentwas well, all those pictures of
those people, they're all models.
I'm not good enough.
I'm not good enough to betaking, to have a professional
photograph taken of me, right?
So what did we do?
In the windows, we took apicture of a mother and daughter
(29:18):
, a picture of a gentleman, abusiness person.
We said John Smith fromBakersfield.
Erin Manning (29:25):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (29:26):
Martha and Rose from XYZ and we humanized.
We said you don't have to lookgood to have a portrait taken,
and I think it's.
The same thing goes tophotography.
You don't have to aspire to bea professional photography to
take enjoyment in takingpictures.
Gary Pageau (29:44):
Right, and then doing something with them.
Right, because I think thetaking pictures part there's no
barrier to that, right.
Like you said, smartphones areeverywhere and I think to some
extent it's diminished, if youwill, the utility of utility of
photography.
Right, because you are justtaking pictures of receipts and
everything right, there's nocost really to do it and I think
(30:04):
there's actually been abacklash um to that where you
have people moving towards film,back to using film and doing
prints, where they may not havebeen doing prints longer because
they want that authenticexperience.
Because one of the criticisms Iheard about is that with
smartphone cameras is thepictures are too good.
They're fixing too many of theflaws.
(30:24):
They don't even look like humanbeings anymore, with some of
the processing involved.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (30:29):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
And then in independent camerastores or the doorway, the
promoters, if you want, ofreturning to the art of
photography, right, and that'swhat we're talking about here.
We're talking about the art ofphotography right.
And the art is making investmentin the cameras you use, making
(30:49):
investment in the quality of thefilms and then, obviously, the
finishing of those images, fromphoto finishing to application
to merchandise or within apicture book, right, right, and
so that's the opportunity andthe good news is, you're right,
there's a revival.
There's a revival in vinylrecords, right, I mean there's a
whole resurgence of things.
(31:11):
I mean, we do work with Fujiright now.
We do all of their packagingfor their instant cameras.
There's a huge revival ofinstant photography with Fuji,
huge yeah.
And they're competing with, youknow, with mobile devices.
Gary Pageau (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a big business for them,
is the Instax business, yeah, sospinning that back to Kodak a
little bit, we were talking alittle bit about kind of
branding sort of.
You know, kodak has so muchbrand equity in the consumer
mind right, the Kodak momentsand they do some licensing
business right where they dolicense it.
But I've always felt thatthere's more to be done with
(31:51):
that.
What are some of your thoughtson what, like, kodak could do
with that equity in themarketplace?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (31:58):
They moved away from Kodak moments, moments
like sharing memories, whichwas the core equity.
They lost sight that sharingthose memories didn't have to be
.
Gary Pageau (32:08):
Well, and to be honest, they spun that off right
and it's a whole other thingnow.
But yeah, you're right, theykind of abandoned that, yeah.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (32:15):
And that was because it was silver halide
technology.
They limited their view thatthe end benefit to the consumer
wasn't that it was silver halide, that was just a vehicle for
the consumer to capture thosespecial memories.
They lost sight of that, butput that aside.
So I would say the Kodak, if Iwas sitting in their boardrooms
today and not saying well, Onthe 19th floor On the 19th floor
(32:36):
.
The last time I was there, thatfloor was empty.
But anyways, that aside, Iwould say people are capturing
an immense amount of pictures.
Erin Manning (32:49):
Right.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (32:51):
An immense amount of pictures.
So the ability of storing thoseimages is, you know, with Apple
, demonstrated.
It's not the device, it's whatthe device connects to and how
that connection control helpspeople control their lives.
(33:11):
I think there's an opportunityfrom that perspective of being
able to control their content,if you like, in a way that's
better organized.
I'd say that's one.
I think the other one is theyhave to get back to promoting
the art of photography.
You need to take an advocateposition to celebrate where they
were, celebrate the art ofphotography.
(33:33):
Kodak survived.
Their medical device divisioncontinues to do well, I mean.
Our x-ray business continues todo well, I mean, although a lot
of it's now been digitized andAI, but it's the consumer side,
it's celebrating the art ofphotography.
They need to bring that back.
Gary Pageau (33:56):
So, speaking of, we haven't really talked much
about the the book.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour new book, which I think
just came out in may, which kindof encapsulates a lot of what
we were talking about?
Can you talk a little bit about, uh, the book?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (34:07):
yeah.
So we coined the phrase uh,blink factor in 1990.
We're doing work for pizza hutin the us and people were
calling it Red Roof.
And so we went back and lookedwhat does that mean?
Well, people make instantdecisions based on color and
shape.
And so I coined the phrase theblink factor and then
(34:28):
trademarked it in 1996.
That was 10 years before theblink book came out by Malcolm
Caldwell.
This is my fourth book.
I wanted to provide a legacy tomy employees and to my clients
and to business owners like theones who are watching this show,
to say you know what?
The future isn't functional,the future is emotional.
(34:49):
You're competing on price,you're competing on promotions,
you're competing on features.
You're never going to win.
It's a declining, it'scommoditized model.
You need to win on the emotions, because 80% of all buying
decisions are emotionally drivenand they're done in less than a
split second.
And so owning that split secondand making those emotional
(35:10):
connections.
And so how do you do that?
We created seven tenets and theybuild on each other.
For the first tenet, it'sreally understanding what is
your core emotional equity,what's that value proposition
that's emotive, that you own,that you need to leverage?
Number two is how do you takethose emotional equities,
translate it to design thecustomer experience, the
employee experience, thepackaging, the signing?
(35:32):
You know your identity, allthose things.
And then you go into what's thebrand story?
Right, we learn throughstorytelling.
What's the story you're tellingyour customers?
What's the story you're tellingyour employees?
How is that tied to your valueproposition and to your
experience?
Are you using your store as acanvas to tell that story?
(35:53):
Then it's personas.
We call it context.
Who are your core target group?
What's not just yourdemographics?
Gary Pageau (35:59):
or psychographics, Then it's personas.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (36:00):
Can't we call it context?
Who are your core target group?
What's not just yourdemographics or psychographics,
but what's your lifestyle needsLike?
If you think of photography,there's segments of
photographers, there'sprofessional freelancers,
there's professionals, and thenyou've got weekend amateurs and
then you've got everyday usersand then you've got occasional
users and those have differentneeds and priorities.
(36:21):
And understanding those, youcan build products around it and
service models around it and bethat expert.
And then from there, once youdefine their personas and their
customer's story, you get intoreally understanding what are
the key factors driving theirmotivations.
And that's really aboutunderstanding what are the
(36:41):
metrics and the sense ofbelonging.
So the next tenet, sense ofbelonging, is now you've told
the story.
How do you get them involved inthat story?
How do you get them to tellthat story?
And from there, how do youmeasure that you're successful?
And the last tenet is how doyou future-proof your brand?
How do you avoid what Kodak did?
How do you avoid that you gotblindsided?
(37:01):
How do you avoid howBlockbuster got blindsided?
You know.
How do you avoid, you know,compusa.
How do you avoid these brandsthat were dominant in the
marketplace, that got disruptedby emerging technologies and
knowledge?
So how do you stay relevant inthose?
So those are the seven tenetstechnologies and knowledge.
Gary Pageau (37:20):
So how do you stay relevant?
So those are the seven tenets.
So where can people go to?
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (37:27):
learn more about what you do and the book.
Where can people get moreinformation?
Well, they can go to ourwebsite, wwwsldcom.
If you go there, you go underresource, you'll see or actually
on the landing page, you'll seea page with a book.
You can actually download forfree the first chapter of the
book and then you can decide ifyou want to read further.
Gary Pageau (37:50):
Awesome, well, thank you so much.
It's been a great conversationtalking about this.
When we booked this call, Ididn't realize you had all this
background with Kodak ImageCenters and all that.
It's been a great refresher,but it's also, you know, not
necessarily a look back but alook forward, and I really
appreciate your time.
Thank you so much.
Jean-Pierre Lacroix (38:04):
Thank you, Gary.
Erin Manning (38:07):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
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