April 24, 2025 • 40 mins
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After dedicating 30 years to school photography and rising to Head of Sales at the UK's largest school photography company, Ian Hatch found himself unexpectedly redundant at age 54. Rather than retiring or changing careers, he channeled what he candidly calls his "revenge" into something extraordinary – a thriving school photography business that's grown from a single school to 66 in just three years.
One of the secrets to Hatch's continued success lies in his innovative "Moving Memories" technology. By linking printed photographs to videos through augmented reality, he's solved a persistent industry problem: low conversion rates on group photos. When parents purchase a print, they receive a QR code that, when scanned and held over the image, brings their child to life in video form. The genius lies in the exclusivity – the video content is only accessible to those who own the physical print. This approach has transformed typical sales rates from 8-10 per class to nearly 100%, with some classes recording more sales than there are students due to split households wanting their copies.
Alongside his photography business, Hatch has built MOFOTO, a thriving online community that's grown from just two members to nearly 2,600 photographers worldwide. This Facebook group fills the void left by the decline of traditional industry associations, offering support, advice, and camaraderie to volume photographers at all levels. Hatch extends this community through workshops and roadshows across the U.K., sharing his expertise on starting and scaling a school photography business.
By focusing on his strengths and partnering with specialists for everything else, he's created a business model that prioritizes work-life balance alongside profitability. "I'm an outsourcer," he explains. "I don't like to do any work. I want to be
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry'sleading news source.
Here's your host, Gary Pegeau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by MediaCclip
, Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pegeau, andtoday we're joined by Ian Hatch
of Hatchbox, and Ian's comingto us from the UK and Ian is the
guru of UK school photographyalmost by accident.
Hi, Ian, how are you today?
Ian Hatch (00:38):
Hi, Gary, great to see you and great to talk to you
.
I'm doing well.
Great to see you and great totalk to you.
I'm doing well.
Gary Pageau (00:45):
So, Ian, you're well-known in the industry.
I met you at SPAC I don't knowwhat was that two or three years
ago, yeah, and I think thediscussion was hey, I see what
you do at the Dead PictureSociety, I'm trying to do
something similar in the UK witha photographer, and you've had
impressive success over therewith building a community around
the UK volume photographymarket.
(01:07):
But what's your story?
How did you get into thisbusiness?
Ian Hatch (01:11):
Well, yeah, I mean I'll touch on that very, very
quickly.
I mean, when we, when we saweach other three or four years
ago, it was a very strange timefor me but I was just starting
and creating a community, Isuppose more so for the volume
photography industry in the UK.
I go to SPAC quite regularly, Igo out to America and what they
(01:33):
do out there Calvin and theteam is pretty incredible and I
wanted to find and the DeadPixels Society and what you do
as well, Gary, just trying toget more collaborations the key
word they use out there.
So collaboration, get togetherwith people all over the UK.
So we're trying to create acommunity and so I did start a
Facebook group at that time.
(01:55):
But my original story, if youlike, going right back to the
beginning, it starts in 1990.
As a youngish man, just over 20,20 odd years old, um, I started
working for um, a high streetphotographer in the uk, in a
place called gloucester which isin the midlands in england, at
that company again, you know, wedidn't go to university or
(02:18):
anything like that.
I just ended up stumbling intoa job that was an office job,
ultimately in a high streetstudio really interesting, you
know photography, people comingin off the streets, you know
studio type stuff.
But on the side that companydid class school photos for a
number of schools in the area.
It was even thinking about ittoday.
It was still a fairly goodnumber.
(02:39):
They have 30 or so schools thatthey had in the local area.
This is 1990 and when I joinedthat company just to cut a long
story short eight years later wewere doing 1,500 schools out of
that um, that office in that um, in that high street studio.
Again, I will tell you, if youlike, that it was all down to me
it wasn't 100% down to me.
(03:01):
I was part of a group of peoplethat came up with, you might say
, a niche in the market, and Isuppose the reason that business
really exploded is because thatniche became a tradition within
schools, right.
Gary Pageau (03:17):
Which is what's happening here in the US, right,
yeah, now, at that time, wereyou attending any conferences,
or this was all stuff you weredoing on your side?
Ian Hatch (03:27):
No, at that time it was literally a very small
operation in the middle ofEngland and we were trying to
just grow that business quickly,which we did do.
And you know there were someconferences around the country
at that time, but a lot of the.
We had something called thePSPA, the School Photographers
Association.
Gary Pageau (03:46):
Yep, yep I remember that very well, yeah.
Ian Hatch (03:48):
Yeah, but there was a UK version of it but
unfortunately it was very muchaimed at sort of the top
echelons of school photography.
There was only a handful ofbusinesses and most of those
businesses didn't really liketalking to each other and they
were much bigger businesses.
So we did start attending that.
I did start attending thatoccasionally with the company
that was at the time, butultimately the growth of that
(04:09):
business was down to what we inthe UK have as leavers in high
school.
So in high schools in Americayou know you have graduation
ceremonies.
In the UK we didn't really haveany kind of you know celebratory
thing because 16 year olds inthe UK it's different to the
American market totally.
We can't make much money out ofour 16 year olds in the UK.
(04:30):
You do make quite a bit moremoney out in the UK because you
get them into the studios andall that sort of stuff.
So the concept and the niche westumbled across was year groups
.
So we took large groupphotographs of the the children
in the year 16 leavers, but we'dalso take their individual and
then create a product which wasthe group and the individual.
(04:51):
So it's me and my year, if youlike yeah and instead of doing
that at the traditional time ofyear that everybody does them,
we did it in the spring, so itsort of filled the gap in the
time of year that wastraditionally quiet for up for
businesses, but it was also inthe lead time up to when
children left.
So this was all probably justas proms were getting really
popular in America and thingslike that.
(05:12):
So it's a similar thing.
We were trying to find ways inwhich we could celebrate the end
of the child's life at school,16 year olds.
But to go from, you know, 30,40 schools up to 1500 schools in
eight years showed that therewas a.
We created almost created amarket ultimately for that.
Um.
So it also meant that even ifyou had a photographer doing the
(05:32):
normal stuff, we could actuallydo this at this time of the
year and then most of the time,schools would just use us
because you know they wantedthat as well, and you'd end up
building up your, your portfolio.
So that was a very successfulsort of eight years grounding in
volume photography for me,really.
And then what happened is thatcompany was purchased by the
(05:52):
largest company in the UK.
Um, so I suppose, if you knowto to compare it in America in
American terms, like LifeTouchpurchasing a business.
Ultimately we have a companycalled Tempest that is the
dominant force in the UK.
They purchased that businessand then I moved down to their
headquarters, so Minneapolis, or, as we call it, st Ives.
(06:12):
I moved down to St Ives, to thehead office area of where that
business is located.
So I worked for that companyfor a long time, 23 years, wow
yeah.
Up until 1990, sorry, 2021,.
Just after the pandemic, afterthe first year of the pandemic,
(06:32):
I was made redundant by thatcompany.
Gary Pageau (06:35):
Now, was that pandemic related?
I mean, were they havingtrouble because of the pandemic
or was it because?
Ian Hatch (06:41):
Well, I think you'll find there's a lot of politics
in sometimes the upper echelonsof some of these businesses
really and in that, in thatparticular business you know,
again, I would never talknegatively about any business
and there were so manyabsolutely amazing people at
that company.
They're really and they stillare now, and you know, I know a
lot of people that have left andpeople that are still there.
(07:02):
But what happened, I think, inthe upper echelons and again
this is me just saying this outloud is that I felt that I, that
there was a couple of people,felt threatened in, you know, in
the higher level, by me and my,I suppose, ability might be the
way to put it.
So it fell to a couple ofpeople to make a decision, to uh
decide that I was being maderedundant.
(07:22):
When it came to me as a hugeshock, to be honest with you, I
thought I was probably going toretire with that company and I
also remember, when I started mynew company, the first school I
walked into, I actually saidit's Ian from Tempest, so I
couldn't get him out of my headeven when I started my new
business.
Gary Pageau (07:40):
Boy, there's a lot of people who are former
LifeTouch.
People are going to feel thatbecause they say the same thing,
right?
Ian Hatch (07:47):
100%.
Yeah, I mean it's quite weirdbecause when you love something
so much because I really didlove that business for a long
time and all the peopleconnected to it to then not be
connected to it, going forwardand having to start again, it
was really quite a hard time forme, oh yeah.
Gary Pageau (08:02):
Absolutely, really quite a hard time for me.
Oh yeah, absolutely, I think alot of people of a certain age,
because you know it's no secret.
You're saying at the time thatearlier it was, you were in your
mid-50s, right that everyone,yeah, yeah, right, it's, it's
very yeah, it's very difficult54, I mean 54 years older.
Ian Hatch (08:17):
You don't really want to be thinking about what you
want to do when you grow up, doyou really?
I mean, I was.
I was sort of literally uhthinking, yeah, hang on a minute
, I've been doing.
I've been in this industry for30, at the time, 30, well, 31
years I've been working involume photography.
So to turn around, say you'reredundant and then think, oh,
I'm going to be a taxi drivernow or whatever it was.
For me it was like, no, I'mgonna, I need to use these
(08:40):
skills I've had for all thisperiod of time.
So what I thought is I need toget revenge.
I was really quite revengedriven, not against the people
that I liked, but against thecompany itself and the people
that made that decision at thetop end, really.
But yeah, it was.
It was quite interesting to haveto, you know, to have to start
(09:00):
all over again, I suppose.
But the great thing about thatis I've been trying to convince
the company that I work for, thelargest company in the country,
to look at companies likeGotphoto and look at some of the
other offerings that were outthere.
So weirdly, I'd already beenconnected to Gotphoto because
I'd invited them to come to ahead office of that company.
They didn't do that.
(09:20):
The company I worked forpreviously didn't really want to
know about that, because theyhave their own systems, they've
got their own legacy and theyjust wanted to carry on doing
what they do.
Then that actually paiddividends for me, because as
soon as they knew I wasredundant, as soon as uh got
photo knew I was redundant, theyasked.
They got in touch and said youknow, would you like to get
involved and work with us for alittle while?
So that helped me out, becausethen, you know, I didn't feel
(09:43):
useless as you would do if youmade redundant sometimes feel as
if you were.
I thought, well, actually,people, do you do care?
So they got in touch.
I worked with those guys as anambassador, as a freelance, for
a while, mainly because Ibelieved in what they were doing
and they were helping out lotsof small operators around the
country.
When I think about that, that'sall I was really doing when I
(10:03):
worked for the company thelargest company in the country,
because all they had was smallregions all over the UK and
they're literally just smallbusinesses all over the country,
you know.
So, even so, I'm coaching andhelping out.
You know somebody, I don't know, in Scotland who's got you know
a hundred schools, and thenthere's somebody else in like
Lincolnshire who've got 30schools, or you know, and these
(10:24):
people work for the same company, but they're all, if you like,
almost individual businessesright all over the country so I
had the experience of helpingand coaching and supporting the
outside staff for that companyand so when I left on the work
we've got photo I just sort ofthought, well, this is just the
same as working for the companyI was with before.
All I'm doing is, you know,contact them saying look, you
(10:46):
know, can I help?
How can I help?
and right um, and, if I can,I've got some.
I like to think I've got someadvice that I can I can give out
.
So, so very much.
That was, um, that was whathappened at the time.
And then, um, I also thought,why don't I start?
If we were talking about thisbefore we started actually
workshops, I sort of thought,well, what I've got might be
(11:09):
worth offering out to people toto hear really about.
You know, I've seen businessesfail.
I've seen businesses do reallywell.
I've grown businesses quickly.
So I thought I had quite a lotof a broad experience as a, you
know, to help people grow theirbusinesses really, company I
worked for before they dograduations, they do military
photography, they do yearbooks.
(11:31):
They just started, actually,ironically, one of my they
started doing tempest travel,which is, uh, ships photography,
yeah, yeah, probably on ships.
Um, and ironically, theintroduction to make that happen
was made by me into into thecompany and that was all
happening just as I was leaving.
So, anyway, but, but it's niceto see that they're diversifying
and they're trying differentareas of the market, but anyway.
(11:52):
So so I created these workshopsand all of a sudden, around
about the time I was starting,that somebody who also used to
work for that company previouslysaid to me you should start a
social media group because Ithink that we could make a
little bit of a you know, just a.
Gary Pageau (12:06):
We could have a little chat online and talk
about, you know, schoolphotography and volume and stuff
and I said well, I don't know,I don't know, I mean, if you, if
you join, then at leastthere'll be two of us, we I
suppose we could.
Ian Hatch (12:18):
We could start, you know, and so I did I that,
literally that day, I set upwhat's called mofoto,
m-o-f-o-t-o, and that's a socialmedia group on on facebook.
You know, not everybody's onFacebook, but a lot of us oldies
are are on there.
And lo and behold, when Istarted that up, within you know
five or ten days or so, we wereup to 30, 40, 50 people joining
(12:40):
up, and it started with peoplethat I knew and people that I'd
previously known through thecompany I worked for before.
And then, before you know it, Iwas starting to look at other
social media groups doing asimilar thing, not just in the
UK but across in America, and Ithought I would love to get you
know a hundred people, or youknow Right exactly.
And then, before you know it,we did have over a hundred
(13:02):
people, and then the next minute, we were heading towards a
thousand, and now we've got2000,.
I think it's 2600, nearlynearly 2600.
Gary Pageau (13:09):
Well, I'm one of those people.
Ian Hatch (13:11):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for that, Gary.
I appreciate that that's reallygood, but yeah, it's sort of
we've hit on something.
There was obviously a gap.
I suppose a gap in the marketfor people being able to talk
about volume photography,because I've just been to the
photography show in London a fewweeks back where I did a
session that was basically a lotof people ignore volume
(13:34):
photography in photographybecause they don't understand
that it's actually a greatopportunity to run a business
and make a business work,whereas studio photography and
wedding photography it's quite ahard graft.
You know it's hard work to getrepeat business and constantly
be on on it getting business,you know, in in through your
studio or or whatever, whereasthe volume side of things is
(13:57):
often looked down upon.
However, once you get a client,an account, the repeat business
and annual repeat business it'ssuch an opportunity it really
is.
Gary Pageau (14:07):
people don't realize so well, and the other
thing is is that it'sphotography, but it's different,
right?
I mean, if your drive is to getthat great bridal shot or the,
the, you know the wedding shotor whatever, you probably aren't
going to be satisfied doingvery true.
Ian Hatch (14:25):
Yeah, right, because it's photography, but it's a
different beast.
Gary Pageau (14:27):
It's a lot of.
That's right.
It's not fashion.
Yeah, exactly, it's a lot it'sright, it's not fashion.
Ian Hatch (14:31):
Yeah, exactly, it's not fashion.
It's not.
It's not photographing eaglesin the highlands in scotland and
you know the landscape shot.
It's not that it's stillimportant.
Gary Pageau (14:39):
I mean, that's the thing.
These are still important.
Uh, memories for parents yes,I'm not diminishing the
importance of it, I'm justsaying it's a different style.
And you know, sometimes you seethat at events like SPAC, where
you get people who are comingin, who are coming from that
world, and you know they'rethey're thinking like you are.
If I could just pick up five or10 schools, it'll help my fall,
(15:01):
because that's my slow seasonand it's it's a different,
difficult adjustment becausethey want to do three poses,
they want to do yeah, yeah,difficult, difficult adjustment
because they want to do threeposes.
Ian Hatch (15:10):
They want to do yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean 100.
You've hit the nail on the headthere.
Really, there are people outthere that if they do, if they
did, 10 to 20 schools a year,they could enjoy some of the
stuff they like.
They want to do, right, uh,which is go off and photograph
eagles up in the highlands or inin you know, montana or
whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like they could do that ifthey had a little volume
business together and and andand what.
(15:32):
I suppose you know.
When I'd left Tempest, I waseven even.
I didn't even think I was goingto run a school photography
business.
I mean, the first thing I didafter I was made redundant in
March was the September of thatyear and I'd done a bit of work,
got photo in between.
I thought, well, I know revenge, I need to get some revenge.
I'm, my wife is a teacher.
They're not having that school.
(15:52):
I'm going to take it off them.
So we took that school as ourvery first one in about six
months after I left that companyand when I saw the results, I
realized that I need to do thisfor a living.
You know, I was like I shouldbe just doing this for a living.
I reckon I can get 20 schoolsis what I thought, and I suppose
.
Suppose the other thing toremember is that although I
worked for the national company,I didn't have any contacts, I
(16:13):
didn't know any teachers, Iwasn't photographing in any of
that stuff.
I had to start completely fromscratch, you know.
Gary Pageau (16:18):
So what was your role at Tempest?
When you left, what was yourlike?
Ian Hatch (16:22):
Well, I was head of sales.
That was my job, head of sales.
So you were actually calling onpeople, you were helping the
sales people call on people.
That I was more of a mentor, Isuppose you would say more of a
coach, more of a support networkfor not just the hundred they
got, 120 regions.
That tempest have got spreadout uh, roughly, or maybe 100,
maybe less these days, but thatwas like looking after 100
(16:43):
businesses, I suppose, and I haddirect sales people whose job
it was to go out every day andsell.
But but I talked, I neverreally walked the walk.
Do you know what I mean?
Gary Pageau (16:52):
It's interesting because if you look at you know
that sort of mentality wantingto be a mentor, wanting to be a
coach that dovetails completelyinto the MoFoto stuff.
That's more of a naturaltransition for you.
But anyway, going back, youstarted that fall with one
school.
Now I have a question.
You started that fall with oneschool.
Now I have a question.
One thing I've noticed is thatfor a lot of people, covid was
(17:16):
because there was a pause there.
They gave them a chance toreinvent the business.
Right, they went to a got photo, they went to a photo day or
you know whatever Keptour'splatform is, et cetera.
They were able to evaluate that,but you didn't have to do that
because you were starting fromscratch.
Ian Hatch (17:33):
yeah, I mean to be that's quite, it's true I mean
it's quite exciting what you'resaying really, because before,
just before covid, when I wasworking for tempest, one of the
things I was trying to pioneerwas was contactless photography,
so paperless photography, soyou don't need to print anything
, you don't need to handanything over, you just either
messaging, texting or emailingto parents.
(17:55):
So I was trying to pioneer thatfrom within the company and
then COVID came along andactually it made the company
more prepared when COVID camealong to be able to do that.
So I kind of ironically helpedthem a little bit in the latter
stages of before COVID camealong.
But yeah, what it meant wasthat explosions.
It really does help like thecompanies like got photo net
(18:16):
life, all the overseas ones,photo day, like, say, everyone
that's at spac.
It really helped them becomemore attractive because people
thought, well, during covidthat's, you know, the systems
that are now successful duringthat period are now ones that
most people can use quite easily.
And again, 10 years ago youcouldn't really start a business
(18:36):
up in this space unless you hadlots of experience or you had
lots of things lined up to beable to do it.
But now with those kind ofsoftware platforms, as long as
you can get the work and you canphotograph it.
You can use these off-the-shelfworkflows to literally get it
to your client and get the moneyand bring the money back to you
.
So it was never been so, soeasy, really, as I was going
(18:58):
into starting the business as um, as compared to what it's been
like in the past, really.
So, yeah, we started out withone school.
When I saw the results, um, Iwas very happy, and not only
that, I got two ex-photographersfrom the company I'd worked for
before to come and do thephotography for me.
So it was like a little littlegroup of people that you know
had worked for that company andthat went very well.
(19:20):
And then, going into 2022, Idecided I needed to do it
properly.
So I started to call on schoolsand again, I had no contact, so
I did it completely from fromscratch.
As I went into 2022, I managedto get about 10 to 15 schools
booked into the diary for thatyear.
So I've gone from 1 to 15 or so.
But it was the middle part ofthe year where things really
(19:42):
changed, because I met some guysat one of the conferences in
London and they had an augmentedreality service basically, so
they basically could link animage to a video.
And the irony of that is thatseven years ago, when I worked
for the other company, I wastrying to find out ways in which
that I could link video to aphoto to make the photo more
(20:05):
appealing to the client.
Now what you have to rememberis, in those situations, what I
was trying to do was improve thesales of big groups.
So we have a group of, say, 300people in a photo and at the
moment you get 30 people whomight buy that photo.
It's the same picture but youjust get 30.
Why aren't you getting, youknow, three or 500 people buying
(20:26):
that picture instead of justthe 30?
So when I worked for for thatcompany, I was trying to work
out how I could increase thesales of that.
How could I get go from 30 to?
It would just make much, somuch more money.
All you're doing is justgetting more people.
They're all in it in the photo.
So we started doing videos.
You know, after the group ofpeople coming past the camera
and waving at the camera andtrying to say that this, this
(20:46):
video, is linked to this picture.
Now, at the time, the time sevenor eight years ago it wasn't
easy to find a way to link thetwo things together and make the
print more desirable.
So when I started my ownbusiness, I met these guys who
had this augmented reality sortof I suppose solution.
I said to them look, if we cancreate a web service where I
upload an image and I upload avideo and you give me a QR code
(21:09):
that I hold over my, that I scanand then I hold it over my
print and you make the printcome to life and the video's
only available if you've gotthat photo, I said can you, can
you do that?
And eventually they said yes.
They said you just write outsort of a bit of a workflow that
you'd like and we'll try and dothat for you.
And so a little bit of alearning curve.
The first year I did one schoolwhere I photographed and we did
(21:31):
individual videos as well forindividual children.
So the children spoke for fiveto 10 seconds and then we linked
it to the picture.
When you buy the picture, ifyou spend a certain amount,
we'll give you this QR code andthen you scan the QR code and
that photograph will come tolife.
What I found was that thatbecame incredibly popular, and
not just now?
Gary Pageau (21:50):
can mom or dad share that video, or is it, you
know, once they've?
Ian Hatch (21:55):
no, the video to explain it is always difficult
in these situations.
That's why it's been sopowerful to show it to people.
But, um, yeah, what you do isthe qr code.
Once you've scanned it, it's onyour device that the actual the
link is on your device.
So you hold your device overthe print that you purchased and
that video comes to life.
Gary Pageau (22:14):
Now, if someone in another state.
That kind of stuff's beenaround for a while.
I mean it's, it's, yeah, yeah,yeah, do that too yeah, there
certainly is.
Ian Hatch (22:21):
I mean chris garcia and stuff.
We were out that we we didactually a session at spank
talking about with chris andwith and with the other guy I
can't remember what's his name,the other guy from California
Cornerstone Photography.
That's right.
Yeah, Cornerstone, that's it.
So, yeah, basically in 2022, westarted doing it.
It became popular and I startedshowing it to other schools and
(22:41):
then all of those schools wereliterally falling over
themselves to want to getinvolved.
So the great thing about it isthe video is not online.
Okay, the video is not online.
Okay, the video is not online.
The only way you can see thevideo is if you buy the print
Right, because to activate thevideo, you have to have the
print in front of you.
Okay, so if mum and dad live indifferent houses, mum needs one
as well as dad.
It's the same QR code, so theyboth have the same QR code, but
(23:11):
they're in different houses.
So what we started to find waswhen we did a group picture of
30 kids the class photographsize instead of eight to ten
people buying a group of 30, wewere getting 25, you know, in
some cases, 32 people morephotographs being bought than
there are children in thepicture, because there's split
households.
Yeah, well, yeah, and we and weknew we'd hit on something,
because normally you get eightorders out of a 30 and you end
up with 30 and sometimes morethan 30, you know and or you
(23:32):
don't always get 100, so 28, 27,whatever, but you were getting
big numbers for one photo.
So, and with one one qr code,um, and so we knew we'd hit on
something there.
So moving memories became.
That's what we ended up, sortof naming it, if you like.
Moving memories became anatural part of what we do.
We wouldn't do it at the in thein the autumn term, when you're
(23:53):
doing the normal profitablestuff.
So you know, most schoolbusinesses across the whole
world they have a portrait sortof term when they're just doing
portraits and that's what theparents buy and if you're doing,
you know in our primary schoolsthey're not very big compared
to america.
If you do 300 children, youdon't want to be stopping with
every single one to do a video.
So we have taken the sameconcept we did with the when I
(24:15):
worked for the photographer ingloucester many years ago.
We created a niche, so thelevers have it.
So you just do it for yourlevers, right?
So you've already photographedthem in the autumn term, just
before they're going to leavethat school.
You photograph them again, butyou do a video with it.
This time you sell thephotographs in the normal way,
but when the parents buy, theyget this special video they can
only get if they buy theirprints.
(24:36):
So that that has been reallysuccessful.
So, going into 2023, we werethen heading towards 40 odd
schools and last year we gotwe're up to 66 now.
So to go from you know one in20 at the end of 2021 to 66 in
this year, let's say it's justmy incredible personality that's
done it, gary.
Gary Pageau (24:56):
Of course, of course, yeah, no, I mean, who
wouldn't want?
I want to move to the UK andhave children, just so you can
photograph them clearly.
Ian Hatch (25:03):
Well, thank you so much, Gary.
That's it.
That's what we need.
We need more parents that wantchildren.
That's what we need.
Yeah, of course, of the kind ofstory and in the background,
while that was happening with myown business, I was doing a few
workshops you might saycoaching trying to support other
smaller operators that werestarting up and as similar to
what's happened in in Americawith LifeTouch is, you get
(25:25):
people that have worked for thatcompany for a long time that
then decide to move on and whenthey move on, they may start up
their own business.
And what was happening similarin the UK is people were leaving
and they were naturally comingto.
People like myself who'dalready already done that as
well, start up their ownbusiness.
And what was happening similarin the UK is people were leaving
and they were naturally comingto people like myself who'd
already done that as well, andgetting support and and and and,
realizing that actually theycould do it on their own.
You know they could do it ontheir own and with the software
(25:48):
options that are out there beingvery successful very quickly as
well at doing it on their own.
So the Facebook group was verymuch for me.
It was sort of therapy formyself almost.
It's like I was able to, youknow, put things out there and
then people started to realisevery, very quickly that there
was almost a need.
You know, other people wantedtherapy too, other people wanted
(26:08):
to know that they were doingthe same thing wrong in a
different place, whether that'sin the world or whether that's
in in the uk.
I mean, most people in thegroup are uk.
That's the huge majority, butthere are now a lot of americans
because of spac I've been outthere a lot of people have
joined.
There's a lot of australians inthere some south africans as
well, and you know we've gotwe've got a whole wide range of
(26:30):
people that I've got the sameproblem, no matter where you are
in the world, with, with volumephotography and with questions
with lighting and all that sortof stuff.
Gary Pageau (26:39):
And do you have the same challenges that they have
in the United States withstudent privacy Cause that's a
big issue here where some of thetechnology I mean for some of
that what?
Is the situation over there.
Ian Hatch (26:51):
Well, I think you'll find it that GDPR is one of
those words, that we call itgdpr, the general data
protection regulation.
Gary Pageau (26:58):
Yeah, we have here so, yeah, same thing.
Ian Hatch (27:01):
So I mean, from from our point of view, it's not so
much of a problem in that we aredealing with school offices and
, uh, principals and that thepeople that are responsible for
what goes on in the school, andquite often what happens is that
they get the wrong informationand believe they can't share
(27:22):
anything with you becausethey're trying to protect the
parents and quite often you knowthere's a lot of
miscommunication and they don'treally understand and all that
sort of stuff.
So it's actually quite hard workas a business person persuading
the school and saying actuallywhat we're doing here is to
benefit the school, to benefitthe parents, to make it easier
for the parents and so, yeah,gdpr is a.
(27:43):
There's been a few hoops thatwe've had to sort of jump
through to make sure that we'redoing the right thing.
Um, and ultimately we are doingthe right thing, as long, as
you know, consent is given bythe parents ultimately, and in
most cases that's well, in99.999 percent of the time,
that's that is the case, becauseobviously, if we say to our
schools if, if there is anyissue with gdpr, you don't want
(28:03):
your children to be photographed, then we won't photograph them,
and and that has to be thestarting point.
It really does.
But, you know, most of the timeparents want the photos or they
want to see them.
Even if they don't want to buythem, they want to be able to.
They're quite happy to havetheir child photographed for
record.
Um, as you know, as far as myexperiences go, really and they
(28:24):
have done for a for a long time-are uk photographers also doing
all the other things like idbadges and those kind of things?
yeah, yeah, I mean id badges.
Uh, photographers do do and andmake that available in this.
Normally that's more of asecondary or a high school thing
.
The market I've been focusingon is primary age, so the
six-year-olds to 11-year-olds iswhat I focus on.
(28:46):
We don't really get much callfor id badges.
You do get them for staff idbadges.
You know that staff needingthem.
But the senior market marketthe 11 year olds to 16 year olds
there's a little bit more ofthat.
But again, id badges are notnecessarily something in this
country that we haven't reallytaken on that.
Gary Pageau (29:03):
We've got different security concerns, frankly in
the UK than in the United StatesSocially.
So that's yeah, Now over herein terms of copyright, you know
we've got several states thatare saying you know you have to
delete the images after twoyears and things like that.
Is there anything like thathappening in the uk because of
the?
Ian Hatch (29:22):
uk schools, a lot of them now, are in trusts, you
know, groups of schools, youhave this in districts, I think,
and things like that over there.
So so we, we have trusts.
So sometimes you, there mightbe a trust driven concept that
we have to follow but notnormally to do.
I mean, occasionally I getquestions about how long you're
going to keep the images andthat sort of stuff and we just,
(29:43):
you know, we can get rid of themwhenever you like, really, if
you want us to.
But ultimately those questionsdo come up, but I don't think
it's quite as a much of an issueas it might be in some of the
places in in the us, in thestates.
Really, we are very lucky.
I think our market is barelysimplistic, depend, uh, base,
you know, compared to some ofthe things that happen.
I mean, when I, when I go tosome of the events at SPAC and
(30:05):
listen to them talk aboutdistrict tenders and things like
that, I think I'm so glad I'mnot in that world.
But we, we are very lucky thatwe, most of the time and it
still seems to be the case nowuh, individual decisions are
made by individual schools andthat's really, really good for
us?
Um, because it means that youcan really focus on working on
(30:27):
the schools you want rather thanthe ones you don't, because
there's quite a lot of schoolsin a trust that some of them,
you don't actually even want.
Really, you don't want thecontract for all of them,
because there are certain onesthat you, you specifically want.
So, yeah, and that's the samefor me down here.
I mean, I'm very focused onbeing regional.
I don't go any further than, uh, 60 miles that way to the right
.
If you go to the left, it'samerica as far as you go,
(30:47):
because I'm right down thebottom of cornwall so I've only
got a 60 mile radius going tothe right of where I live.
that I would really want to workin at the moment.
I mean and that may change aswe get bigger and bigger but at
the minute I'm happy with thatkind of you know we're not
having to drive to too much morethan about an hour a day to any
(31:08):
sort of school really.
Gary Pageau (31:10):
So let's talk a little bit about the MoFoto
community and the MoFotoin-person events you've kind of
done, because that's sort ofbeen an outgrowth of this.
It started as a two-personFacebook page and it's really
grown into a pretty significantentity, like you said, filling a
(31:32):
vacuum that PSBA UK once held.
Like you said, filling a vacuumthat PSPA UK once held, and I
don't think you know I mean SPAChas tried some.
I know they did a meeting lastyear in the UK.
I don't know if they did itthis year, but it's certainly
something that you know there'san appetite for, so you've
tapped into that, yeah, yeah, Imean, there's a couple of us in
the industry.
Ian Hatch (31:49):
We mentioned a few names earlier.
There's Harry out in Norway,there's a few in europe, a few
people, and nothing would pleaseme more than to get a european
version of smack going,something like that.
That would be really, reallygreat, but I suppose, in the
meantime, the the best versionof it is the online community
that we've currently got um, andthat that community, as I say,
(32:10):
and now it's grown to us thesize it has grown to, we're
attracting people who want tolearn more, and in some cases,
they're people that have been inthe industry a long time.
I've been saying that I'm goingto do some workshops and now,
especially now in the last yearor so, I've not only have I said
I can do it, I've proved that Ican do it by running my own
business from scratch, really.
So to then have a workshopsaying, look, you know, I
(32:31):
started with nothing and nowI've got this.
Uh, this is how I did it.
I'm quite happy to share thatwith anybody who wants to come,
and so I had, uh, what I have.
I've done some zooms this yearwith with uh, 12, 12 or 14
people in it.
Last year I went on about fouror five different road shows
around the country doing it.
I also went to a got photoroadshow this year with with
some of their users at thatevent as well.
(32:52):
But yeah, mo, photo has growninto this marketplace.
I suppose where you can get helpreally and the extension of
that is running these, theseworkshops.
But as I say to anybody thatcomes to any of my workshops,
ultimate all I'm interested inis finding ways in which I can
help them to win some tools orkeep the ones they've got, or be
more profitable or find bettersolutions of working in this
(33:14):
industry.
Because you know, I'm a verysimple guy and with my business
I'm an outsourcer.
I don't like to do any work.
Yeah, I don't want to doanything for myself.
I want to be able to use theservices that are out there
right, and there are people thatcan do it better than you.
It's like my.
I don't do my own printingbecause I would never want to do
that, because there are greatprinters out there that you can
automate your processes with.
(33:35):
Same goes for.
That's how I feel, and ifanybody wants to run their
business differently, I've beeninvolved with businesses that
run it where they own it allthemselves.
It's all in-house.
Gary Pageau (33:45):
Yeah, the vertically integrated model, as
they say, totally, and that canwork.
I mean, that's one of thebeautiful things about this.
Yeah, there's really no one wayto do it, or not?
I mean, when I talk to peopleat SPAC or SPOA or things you
know, it's always interesting tosee when you hear people saying
oh, you know, I, you know, Iused to print, then I outsourced
(34:06):
it and I'm much more profitable.
And then there's other peoplesaying you know, I outsource
some, but I'm going to bring inthe gift items.
Right, I'm going to do thosein-house.
And you have that flexibility.
Ian Hatch (34:19):
It's perfect because I've got quite a few people who
I speak to who are in MoFoto,who they would always want to
print their own stuff becausethey really, truly believe
they're making more money and Ithink they are making more money
for sure than I am, but I'mhappier.
Do you know what I mean?
So you can look at it indifferent ways really.
I mean he's happier becausehe's got more money, I'm happier
because I've got more time, youknow.
(34:40):
So what suits you?
It doesn't necessarily suitothers, but the good thing about
it is to be able to look at itfrom you know, without ego.
Look at it and say actually,yeah, that suits you, you do it
that way.
But here are some other waysyou can do these things.
And I'm not here to tell you tochange and I'm not necessarily
saying I'm the guru, but I'mcertainly someone who's got a
lot of experience of it beingdone in different ways.
(35:02):
And you know, like I say, I'veworked for that company.
It's all in-house.
I mean, I'll tell you whatanother thing is.
You probably don't realize I'veactually been to LifeTouch's
headquarters in Minneapolis.
I've actually been in theboardroom there a few times
because our company in the UKused to have a relationship with
LifeTouch and so we sometimesdid an exchange visit.
So I went with three of ourother senior managers out to
(35:24):
Minneapolis, probably 2000, andtrying to think now 17.
It was just before they, orjust after they bought
Shutterstock, not ShutterstockShutterfly.
Yeah, just after they boughtshutterfly.
Gary Pageau (35:36):
I literally went out, it was the other way around
.
Shutterfly bought them.
Ian Hatch (35:39):
But yeah, yeah, sorry , I mean the other way around,
but shutterfly bought them.
I went out literally as thatchangeover was, uh was happening
and uh again, it was reallyinteresting because they were
very, very in-house, almostinsular, it's kind of kind of
business where they didn'treally outside influences,
weren't really coming in.
So that was amazing timebecause they finally got all
this, these onlookers fromoutside coming in and sort of
(36:02):
trying to shuffle the businessaround and change it a little
bit really.
But and again, I'm notnecessarily saying that was a
good thing for life touchpossibly, um, because you know,
like, like with everything, mostof the actual, real business is
done down at ground level bythe local people servicing
photographers, servicing thoseschools.
That's where you know even thecompany I worked for before.
(36:23):
That's where they're strong.
They're not necessarily strongbecause of their name or because
of their legacy.
It's about those human beingsthat they've got on the ground
in those areas that make itreally, really special.
And that's why I knew when Igrew my business that I could be
like that.
You know, it's you.
You just have to become thego-to person in your area, um,
or the one of the go-to choicesin your areas.
(36:44):
That's why, especially withdoing something like moving
memories, it made me stand out alittle bit.
So I I think I gained anadvantage because I had
something totally differentthey'd not seen before.
So you know, that did help mewith a fairly quick increase in
the numbers and stuff.
Gary Pageau (37:00):
And you had the flexibility to be able to turn
on a dime and do that.
You want to introduce a newproduct, make a change.
You don't have to run it up thedistrict and run it up the
corporate and have somebody upon it and run it down and then
you know, have, have you know,17 people in marketing?
Look at it and everything else.
Ian Hatch (37:17):
you can pretty much and then and then it still
wouldn't go anywhere.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Do you know what I mean?
Honestly, it's so true.
Some of these businesses is youknow.
Uh, it was quite interesting.
Life touch as well.
They talked about backgroundreplacement, or what they call
it.
Yeah, the three letter acronym,was it brt?
They called it back onreplacement therapy I always
think of.
Anyway, when I went to seeLifeTouch, they were almost
(37:38):
upset that they'd introduced itto the market because it became
a bit of a pain in the ass forthem.
Do you know what?
I mean it's like they theycreated this new thing, which
you know was was quite good, andyou know you have all these
different types.
Parents loved it.
Yeah, exactly, but because theycreated it and they made it
happen, it then became almostneat, well wanted, needed in the
marketplace.
It was interesting that theirtake on it was oh my God, we've
(38:00):
created this monster.
Gary Pageau (38:02):
And you know, we've created a whole industry for
ourselves.
Yeah, ultimately.
Ian Hatch (38:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly so, yeah, it just made
me laugh.
And that what's also made melaugh is my company that I used
to work for is now doing thesame thing down here.
They've just started doing, youknow, image replacement for
backgrounds and things like that.
But it's just good to have acommunity out there that we can
talk about these things really,and I'm a massive fan of SPAC
(38:27):
and what Calvin and Corey andeven Matt the younger ones
they've got now coming throughon the board at SPAC, what
they're doing and again, again,emulating that anywhere else in
the world, um, you know,especially in Europe would be
brilliant, I think, really, andand the Facebook group is a
little tiny bit of that really alittle tiny bit of support for
for us out there.
So awesome.
Gary Pageau (38:48):
Well, where can people go for more information
about MoFoto, Hatchboxphotography, moving memories,
all the other things that you'reinvolved in?
100%?
Ian Hatch (39:00):
Gary, thank you very much for that.
Well, there's two things youcan do.
One is just go to Facebook ifyou're not already part of the
group.
It's all about volumephotography for schools, nursery
sports, dance, mainly in the UKand Europe, but all across the
world.
We've got people from all overthe world.
We've got people from all overthe world, so don't be
frightened of joining that group.
Facebook group is called MoFotoM-O-F-O-T-O.
(39:21):
We also have a Facebook groupfor moving memories as well, so
that's like a users and supportgroup.
So if you use moving memoriesin your business, or you want to
, or you're interested in it,there's a support group called
moving Memories Support and UserGroup.
Ok, that one's only got about232 people in it because it's
really new.
(39:49):
And again, that's a place whereI often post information about
what I'm doing with MovingMemories and how I do things,
because people always ask how doyou do it?
Why do you do it?
All those sorts of questionsare answered in there, because
ultimately for me, that issomething that really even this
year as well.
We're doing something calledtime tag hoodies.
So we've got hoodies now thatcome to life.
So this particular image on myarm when you hold your phone
over it, it plays a video aswell, so that's something that
(40:14):
can also enhance what I do inlevers, because every lever in
the uk has a hoodie so we'relooking at selling hoodies that
have an image on that plays avideo that ties into the
photography that we do as well.
So there's there's lots oflittle exciting things going on,
but wait and get hold of me.
Facebook group mofoto.
Facebook group moving memorysupport and User Group it's
(40:36):
called Awesome.
Gary Pageau (40:36):
Well, thank you, ian, it's been great catching up
.
It's always a pleasure when Isee you at SPAC and look forward
to seeing what you're up toagain.
Ian Hatch (40:44):
Thank you very much Gary take care.
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry'sleading news source.
Here's your host, Gary Pegeau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by MediaCclip
, Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pegeau, andtoday we're joined by Ian Hatch
of Hatchbox, and Ian's comingto us from the UK and Ian is the
guru of UK school photographyalmost by accident.
Hi, Ian, how are you today?
Ian Hatch (00:38):
Hi, Gary, great to see you and great to talk to you
.
I'm doing well.
Great to see you and great totalk to you.
I'm doing well.
Gary Pageau (00:45):
So, Ian, you're well-known in the industry.
I met you at SPAC I don't knowwhat was that two or three years
ago, yeah, and I think thediscussion was hey, I see what
you do at the Dead PictureSociety, I'm trying to do
something similar in the UK witha photographer, and you've had
impressive success over therewith building a community around
the UK volume photographymarket.
(01:07):
But what's your story?
How did you get into thisbusiness?
Ian Hatch (01:11):
Well, yeah, I mean I'll touch on that very, very
quickly.
I mean, when we, when we saweach other three or four years
ago, it was a very strange timefor me but I was just starting
and creating a community, Isuppose more so for the volume
photography industry in the UK.
I go to SPAC quite regularly, Igo out to America and what they
(01:33):
do out there Calvin and theteam is pretty incredible and I
wanted to find and the DeadPixels Society and what you do
as well, Gary, just trying toget more collaborations the key
word they use out there.
So collaboration, get togetherwith people all over the UK.
So we're trying to create acommunity and so I did start a
Facebook group at that time.
(01:55):
But my original story, if youlike, going right back to the
beginning, it starts in 1990.
As a youngish man, just over 20,20 odd years old, um, I started
working for um, a high streetphotographer in the uk, in a
place called gloucester which isin the midlands in england, at
that company again, you know, wedidn't go to university or
(02:18):
anything like that.
I just ended up stumbling intoa job that was an office job,
ultimately in a high streetstudio really interesting, you
know photography, people comingin off the streets, you know
studio type stuff.
But on the side that companydid class school photos for a
number of schools in the area.
It was even thinking about ittoday.
It was still a fairly goodnumber.
(02:39):
They have 30 or so schools thatthey had in the local area.
This is 1990 and when I joinedthat company just to cut a long
story short eight years later wewere doing 1,500 schools out of
that um, that office in that um, in that high street studio.
Again, I will tell you, if youlike, that it was all down to me
it wasn't 100% down to me.
(03:01):
I was part of a group of peoplethat came up with, you might say
, a niche in the market, and Isuppose the reason that business
really exploded is because thatniche became a tradition within
schools, right.
Gary Pageau (03:17):
Which is what's happening here in the US, right,
yeah, now, at that time, wereyou attending any conferences,
or this was all stuff you weredoing on your side?
Ian Hatch (03:27):
No, at that time it was literally a very small
operation in the middle ofEngland and we were trying to
just grow that business quickly,which we did do.
And you know there were someconferences around the country
at that time, but a lot of the.
We had something called thePSPA, the School Photographers
Association.
Gary Pageau (03:46):
Yep, yep I remember that very well, yeah.
Ian Hatch (03:48):
Yeah, but there was a UK version of it but
unfortunately it was very muchaimed at sort of the top
echelons of school photography.
There was only a handful ofbusinesses and most of those
businesses didn't really liketalking to each other and they
were much bigger businesses.
So we did start attending that.
I did start attending thatoccasionally with the company
that was at the time, butultimately the growth of that
(04:09):
business was down to what we inthe UK have as leavers in high
school.
So in high schools in Americayou know you have graduation
ceremonies.
In the UK we didn't really haveany kind of you know celebratory
thing because 16 year olds inthe UK it's different to the
American market totally.
We can't make much money out ofour 16 year olds in the UK.
(04:30):
You do make quite a bit moremoney out in the UK because you
get them into the studios andall that sort of stuff.
So the concept and the niche westumbled across was year groups
.
So we took large groupphotographs of the the children
in the year 16 leavers, but we'dalso take their individual and
then create a product which wasthe group and the individual.
(04:51):
So it's me and my year, if youlike yeah and instead of doing
that at the traditional time ofyear that everybody does them,
we did it in the spring, so itsort of filled the gap in the
time of year that wastraditionally quiet for up for
businesses, but it was also inthe lead time up to when
children left.
So this was all probably justas proms were getting really
popular in America and thingslike that.
(05:12):
So it's a similar thing.
We were trying to find ways inwhich we could celebrate the end
of the child's life at school,16 year olds.
But to go from, you know, 30,40 schools up to 1500 schools in
eight years showed that therewas a.
We created almost created amarket ultimately for that.
Um.
So it also meant that even ifyou had a photographer doing the
(05:32):
normal stuff, we could actuallydo this at this time of the
year and then most of the time,schools would just use us
because you know they wantedthat as well, and you'd end up
building up your, your portfolio.
So that was a very successfulsort of eight years grounding in
volume photography for me,really.
And then what happened is thatcompany was purchased by the
(05:52):
largest company in the UK.
Um, so I suppose, if you knowto to compare it in America in
American terms, like LifeTouchpurchasing a business.
Ultimately we have a companycalled Tempest that is the
dominant force in the UK.
They purchased that businessand then I moved down to their
headquarters, so Minneapolis, or, as we call it, st Ives.
(06:12):
I moved down to St Ives, to thehead office area of where that
business is located.
So I worked for that companyfor a long time, 23 years, wow
yeah.
Up until 1990, sorry, 2021,.
Just after the pandemic, afterthe first year of the pandemic,
(06:32):
I was made redundant by thatcompany.
Gary Pageau (06:35):
Now, was that pandemic related?
I mean, were they havingtrouble because of the pandemic
or was it because?
Ian Hatch (06:41):
Well, I think you'll find there's a lot of politics
in sometimes the upper echelonsof some of these businesses
really and in that, in thatparticular business you know,
again, I would never talknegatively about any business
and there were so manyabsolutely amazing people at
that company.
They're really and they stillare now, and you know, I know a
lot of people that have left andpeople that are still there.
(07:02):
But what happened, I think, inthe upper echelons and again
this is me just saying this outloud is that I felt that I, that
there was a couple of people,felt threatened in, you know, in
the higher level, by me and my,I suppose, ability might be the
way to put it.
So it fell to a couple ofpeople to make a decision, to uh
decide that I was being maderedundant.
(07:22):
When it came to me as a hugeshock, to be honest with you, I
thought I was probably going toretire with that company and I
also remember, when I started mynew company, the first school I
walked into, I actually saidit's Ian from Tempest, so I
couldn't get him out of my headeven when I started my new
business.
Gary Pageau (07:40):
Boy, there's a lot of people who are former
LifeTouch.
People are going to feel thatbecause they say the same thing,
right?
Ian Hatch (07:47):
100%.
Yeah, I mean it's quite weirdbecause when you love something
so much because I really didlove that business for a long
time and all the peopleconnected to it to then not be
connected to it, going forwardand having to start again, it
was really quite a hard time forme, oh yeah.
Gary Pageau (08:02):
Absolutely, really quite a hard time for me.
Oh yeah, absolutely, I think alot of people of a certain age,
because you know it's no secret.
You're saying at the time thatearlier it was, you were in your
mid-50s, right that everyone,yeah, yeah, right, it's, it's
very yeah, it's very difficult54, I mean 54 years older.
Ian Hatch (08:17):
You don't really want to be thinking about what you
want to do when you grow up, doyou really?
I mean, I was.
I was sort of literally uhthinking, yeah, hang on a minute
, I've been doing.
I've been in this industry for30, at the time, 30, well, 31
years I've been working involume photography.
So to turn around, say you'reredundant and then think, oh,
I'm going to be a taxi drivernow or whatever it was.
For me it was like, no, I'mgonna, I need to use these
(08:40):
skills I've had for all thisperiod of time.
So what I thought is I need toget revenge.
I was really quite revengedriven, not against the people
that I liked, but against thecompany itself and the people
that made that decision at thetop end, really.
But yeah, it was.
It was quite interesting to haveto, you know, to have to start
(09:00):
all over again, I suppose.
But the great thing about thatis I've been trying to convince
the company that I work for, thelargest company in the country,
to look at companies likeGotphoto and look at some of the
other offerings that were outthere.
So weirdly, I'd already beenconnected to Gotphoto because
I'd invited them to come to ahead office of that company.
They didn't do that.
(09:20):
The company I worked forpreviously didn't really want to
know about that, because theyhave their own systems, they've
got their own legacy and theyjust wanted to carry on doing
what they do.
Then that actually paiddividends for me, because as
soon as they knew I wasredundant, as soon as uh got
photo knew I was redundant, theyasked.
They got in touch and said youknow, would you like to get
involved and work with us for alittle while?
So that helped me out, becausethen, you know, I didn't feel
(09:43):
useless as you would do if youmade redundant sometimes feel as
if you were.
I thought, well, actually,people, do you do care?
So they got in touch.
I worked with those guys as anambassador, as a freelance, for
a while, mainly because Ibelieved in what they were doing
and they were helping out lotsof small operators around the
country.
When I think about that, that'sall I was really doing when I
(10:03):
worked for the company thelargest company in the country,
because all they had was smallregions all over the UK and
they're literally just smallbusinesses all over the country,
you know.
So, even so, I'm coaching andhelping out.
You know somebody, I don't know, in Scotland who's got you know
a hundred schools, and thenthere's somebody else in like
Lincolnshire who've got 30schools, or you know, and these
(10:24):
people work for the same company, but they're all, if you like,
almost individual businessesright all over the country so I
had the experience of helpingand coaching and supporting the
outside staff for that companyand so when I left on the work
we've got photo I just sort ofthought, well, this is just the
same as working for the companyI was with before.
All I'm doing is, you know,contact them saying look, you
(10:46):
know, can I help?
How can I help?
and right um, and, if I can,I've got some.
I like to think I've got someadvice that I can I can give out
.
So, so very much.
That was, um, that was whathappened at the time.
And then, um, I also thought,why don't I start?
If we were talking about thisbefore we started actually
workshops, I sort of thought,well, what I've got might be
(11:09):
worth offering out to people toto hear really about.
You know, I've seen businessesfail.
I've seen businesses do reallywell.
I've grown businesses quickly.
So I thought I had quite a lotof a broad experience as a, you
know, to help people grow theirbusinesses really, company I
worked for before they dograduations, they do military
photography, they do yearbooks.
(11:31):
They just started, actually,ironically, one of my they
started doing tempest travel,which is, uh, ships photography,
yeah, yeah, probably on ships.
Um, and ironically, theintroduction to make that happen
was made by me into into thecompany and that was all
happening just as I was leaving.
So, anyway, but, but it's niceto see that they're diversifying
and they're trying differentareas of the market, but anyway.
(11:52):
So so I created these workshopsand all of a sudden, around
about the time I was starting,that somebody who also used to
work for that company previouslysaid to me you should start a
social media group because Ithink that we could make a
little bit of a you know, just a.
Gary Pageau (12:06):
We could have a little chat online and talk
about, you know, schoolphotography and volume and stuff
and I said well, I don't know,I don't know, I mean, if you, if
you join, then at leastthere'll be two of us, we I
suppose we could.
Ian Hatch (12:18):
We could start, you know, and so I did I that,
literally that day, I set upwhat's called mofoto,
m-o-f-o-t-o, and that's a socialmedia group on on facebook.
You know, not everybody's onFacebook, but a lot of us oldies
are are on there.
And lo and behold, when Istarted that up, within you know
five or ten days or so, we wereup to 30, 40, 50 people joining
(12:40):
up, and it started with peoplethat I knew and people that I'd
previously known through thecompany I worked for before.
And then, before you know it, Iwas starting to look at other
social media groups doing asimilar thing, not just in the
UK but across in America, and Ithought I would love to get you
know a hundred people, or youknow Right exactly.
And then, before you know it,we did have over a hundred
(13:02):
people, and then the next minute, we were heading towards a
thousand, and now we've got2000,.
I think it's 2600, nearlynearly 2600.
Gary Pageau (13:09):
Well, I'm one of those people.
Ian Hatch (13:11):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for that, Gary.
I appreciate that that's reallygood, but yeah, it's sort of
we've hit on something.
There was obviously a gap.
I suppose a gap in the marketfor people being able to talk
about volume photography,because I've just been to the
photography show in London a fewweeks back where I did a
session that was basically a lotof people ignore volume
(13:34):
photography in photographybecause they don't understand
that it's actually a greatopportunity to run a business
and make a business work,whereas studio photography and
wedding photography it's quite ahard graft.
You know it's hard work to getrepeat business and constantly
be on on it getting business,you know, in in through your
studio or or whatever, whereasthe volume side of things is
(13:57):
often looked down upon.
However, once you get a client,an account, the repeat business
and annual repeat business it'ssuch an opportunity it really
is.
Gary Pageau (14:07):
people don't realize so well, and the other
thing is is that it'sphotography, but it's different,
right?
I mean, if your drive is to getthat great bridal shot or the,
the, you know the wedding shotor whatever, you probably aren't
going to be satisfied doingvery true.
Ian Hatch (14:25):
Yeah, right, because it's photography, but it's a
different beast.
Gary Pageau (14:27):
It's a lot of.
That's right.
It's not fashion.
Yeah, exactly, it's a lot it'sright, it's not fashion.
Ian Hatch (14:31):
Yeah, exactly, it's not fashion.
It's not.
It's not photographing eaglesin the highlands in scotland and
you know the landscape shot.
It's not that it's stillimportant.
Gary Pageau (14:39):
I mean, that's the thing.
These are still important.
Uh, memories for parents yes,I'm not diminishing the
importance of it, I'm justsaying it's a different style.
And you know, sometimes you seethat at events like SPAC, where
you get people who are comingin, who are coming from that
world, and you know they'rethey're thinking like you are.
If I could just pick up five or10 schools, it'll help my fall,
(15:01):
because that's my slow seasonand it's it's a different,
difficult adjustment becausethey want to do three poses,
they want to do yeah, yeah,difficult, difficult adjustment
because they want to do threeposes.
Ian Hatch (15:10):
They want to do yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean 100.
You've hit the nail on the headthere.
Really, there are people outthere that if they do, if they
did, 10 to 20 schools a year,they could enjoy some of the
stuff they like.
They want to do, right, uh,which is go off and photograph
eagles up in the highlands or inin you know, montana or
whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like they could do that ifthey had a little volume
business together and and andand what.
(15:32):
I suppose you know.
When I'd left Tempest, I waseven even.
I didn't even think I was goingto run a school photography
business.
I mean, the first thing I didafter I was made redundant in
March was the September of thatyear and I'd done a bit of work,
got photo in between.
I thought, well, I know revenge, I need to get some revenge.
I'm, my wife is a teacher.
They're not having that school.
(15:52):
I'm going to take it off them.
So we took that school as ourvery first one in about six
months after I left that companyand when I saw the results, I
realized that I need to do thisfor a living.
You know, I was like I shouldbe just doing this for a living.
I reckon I can get 20 schoolsis what I thought, and I suppose
.
Suppose the other thing toremember is that although I
worked for the national company,I didn't have any contacts, I
(16:13):
didn't know any teachers, Iwasn't photographing in any of
that stuff.
I had to start completely fromscratch, you know.
Gary Pageau (16:18):
So what was your role at Tempest?
When you left, what was yourlike?
Ian Hatch (16:22):
Well, I was head of sales.
That was my job, head of sales.
So you were actually calling onpeople, you were helping the
sales people call on people.
That I was more of a mentor, Isuppose you would say more of a
coach, more of a support networkfor not just the hundred they
got, 120 regions.
That tempest have got spreadout uh, roughly, or maybe 100,
maybe less these days, but thatwas like looking after 100
(16:43):
businesses, I suppose, and I haddirect sales people whose job
it was to go out every day andsell.
But but I talked, I neverreally walked the walk.
Do you know what I mean?
Gary Pageau (16:52):
It's interesting because if you look at you know
that sort of mentality wantingto be a mentor, wanting to be a
coach that dovetails completelyinto the MoFoto stuff.
That's more of a naturaltransition for you.
But anyway, going back, youstarted that fall with one
school.
Now I have a question.
You started that fall with oneschool.
Now I have a question.
One thing I've noticed is thatfor a lot of people, covid was
(17:16):
because there was a pause there.
They gave them a chance toreinvent the business.
Right, they went to a got photo, they went to a photo day or
you know whatever Keptour'splatform is, et cetera.
They were able to evaluate that,but you didn't have to do that
because you were starting fromscratch.
Ian Hatch (17:33):
yeah, I mean to be that's quite, it's true I mean
it's quite exciting what you'resaying really, because before,
just before covid, when I wasworking for tempest, one of the
things I was trying to pioneerwas was contactless photography,
so paperless photography, soyou don't need to print anything
, you don't need to handanything over, you just either
messaging, texting or emailingto parents.
(17:55):
So I was trying to pioneer thatfrom within the company and
then COVID came along andactually it made the company
more prepared when COVID camealong to be able to do that.
So I kind of ironically helpedthem a little bit in the latter
stages of before COVID camealong.
But yeah, what it meant wasthat explosions.
It really does help like thecompanies like got photo net
(18:16):
life, all the overseas ones,photo day, like, say, everyone
that's at spac.
It really helped them becomemore attractive because people
thought, well, during covidthat's, you know, the systems
that are now successful duringthat period are now ones that
most people can use quite easily.
And again, 10 years ago youcouldn't really start a business
(18:36):
up in this space unless you hadlots of experience or you had
lots of things lined up to beable to do it.
But now with those kind ofsoftware platforms, as long as
you can get the work and you canphotograph it.
You can use these off-the-shelfworkflows to literally get it
to your client and get the moneyand bring the money back to you
.
So it was never been so, soeasy, really, as I was going
(18:58):
into starting the business as um, as compared to what it's been
like in the past, really.
So, yeah, we started out withone school.
When I saw the results, um, Iwas very happy, and not only
that, I got two ex-photographersfrom the company I'd worked for
before to come and do thephotography for me.
So it was like a little littlegroup of people that you know
had worked for that company andthat went very well.
(19:20):
And then, going into 2022, Idecided I needed to do it
properly.
So I started to call on schoolsand again, I had no contact, so
I did it completely from fromscratch.
As I went into 2022, I managedto get about 10 to 15 schools
booked into the diary for thatyear.
So I've gone from 1 to 15 or so.
But it was the middle part ofthe year where things really
(19:42):
changed, because I met some guysat one of the conferences in
London and they had an augmentedreality service basically, so
they basically could link animage to a video.
And the irony of that is thatseven years ago, when I worked
for the other company, I wastrying to find out ways in which
that I could link video to aphoto to make the photo more
(20:05):
appealing to the client.
Now what you have to rememberis, in those situations, what I
was trying to do was improve thesales of big groups.
So we have a group of, say, 300people in a photo and at the
moment you get 30 people whomight buy that photo.
It's the same picture but youjust get 30.
Why aren't you getting, youknow, three or 500 people buying
(20:26):
that picture instead of justthe 30?
So when I worked for for thatcompany, I was trying to work
out how I could increase thesales of that.
How could I get go from 30 to?
It would just make much, somuch more money.
All you're doing is justgetting more people.
They're all in it in the photo.
So we started doing videos.
You know, after the group ofpeople coming past the camera
and waving at the camera andtrying to say that this, this
(20:46):
video, is linked to this picture.
Now, at the time, the time sevenor eight years ago it wasn't
easy to find a way to link thetwo things together and make the
print more desirable.
So when I started my ownbusiness, I met these guys who
had this augmented reality sortof I suppose solution.
I said to them look, if we cancreate a web service where I
upload an image and I upload avideo and you give me a QR code
(21:09):
that I hold over my, that I scanand then I hold it over my
print and you make the printcome to life and the video's
only available if you've gotthat photo, I said can you, can
you do that?
And eventually they said yes.
They said you just write outsort of a bit of a workflow that
you'd like and we'll try and dothat for you.
And so a little bit of alearning curve.
The first year I did one schoolwhere I photographed and we did
(21:31):
individual videos as well forindividual children.
So the children spoke for fiveto 10 seconds and then we linked
it to the picture.
When you buy the picture, ifyou spend a certain amount,
we'll give you this QR code andthen you scan the QR code and
that photograph will come tolife.
What I found was that thatbecame incredibly popular, and
not just now?
Gary Pageau (21:50):
can mom or dad share that video, or is it, you
know, once they've?
Ian Hatch (21:55):
no, the video to explain it is always difficult
in these situations.
That's why it's been sopowerful to show it to people.
But, um, yeah, what you do isthe qr code.
Once you've scanned it, it's onyour device that the actual the
link is on your device.
So you hold your device overthe print that you purchased and
that video comes to life.
Gary Pageau (22:14):
Now, if someone in another state.
That kind of stuff's beenaround for a while.
I mean it's, it's, yeah, yeah,yeah, do that too yeah, there
certainly is.
Ian Hatch (22:21):
I mean chris garcia and stuff.
We were out that we we didactually a session at spank
talking about with chris andwith and with the other guy I
can't remember what's his name,the other guy from California
Cornerstone Photography.
That's right.
Yeah, Cornerstone, that's it.
So, yeah, basically in 2022, westarted doing it.
It became popular and I startedshowing it to other schools and
(22:41):
then all of those schools wereliterally falling over
themselves to want to getinvolved.
So the great thing about it isthe video is not online.
Okay, the video is not online.
Okay, the video is not online.
The only way you can see thevideo is if you buy the print
Right, because to activate thevideo, you have to have the
print in front of you.
Okay, so if mum and dad live indifferent houses, mum needs one
as well as dad.
It's the same QR code, so theyboth have the same QR code, but
(23:11):
they're in different houses.
So what we started to find waswhen we did a group picture of
30 kids the class photographsize instead of eight to ten
people buying a group of 30, wewere getting 25, you know, in
some cases, 32 people morephotographs being bought than
there are children in thepicture, because there's split
households.
Yeah, well, yeah, and we and weknew we'd hit on something,
because normally you get eightorders out of a 30 and you end
up with 30 and sometimes morethan 30, you know and or you
(23:32):
don't always get 100, so 28, 27,whatever, but you were getting
big numbers for one photo.
So, and with one one qr code,um, and so we knew we'd hit on
something there.
So moving memories became.
That's what we ended up, sortof naming it, if you like.
Moving memories became anatural part of what we do.
We wouldn't do it at the in thein the autumn term, when you're
(23:53):
doing the normal profitablestuff.
So you know, most schoolbusinesses across the whole
world they have a portrait sortof term when they're just doing
portraits and that's what theparents buy and if you're doing,
you know in our primary schoolsthey're not very big compared
to america.
If you do 300 children, youdon't want to be stopping with
every single one to do a video.
So we have taken the sameconcept we did with the when I
(24:15):
worked for the photographer ingloucester many years ago.
We created a niche, so thelevers have it.
So you just do it for yourlevers, right?
So you've already photographedthem in the autumn term, just
before they're going to leavethat school.
You photograph them again, butyou do a video with it.
This time you sell thephotographs in the normal way,
but when the parents buy, theyget this special video they can
only get if they buy theirprints.
(24:36):
So that that has been reallysuccessful.
So, going into 2023, we werethen heading towards 40 odd
schools and last year we gotwe're up to 66 now.
So to go from you know one in20 at the end of 2021 to 66 in
this year, let's say it's justmy incredible personality that's
done it, gary.
Gary Pageau (24:56):
Of course, of course, yeah, no, I mean, who
wouldn't want?
I want to move to the UK andhave children, just so you can
photograph them clearly.
Ian Hatch (25:03):
Well, thank you so much, Gary.
That's it.
That's what we need.
We need more parents that wantchildren.
That's what we need.
Yeah, of course, of the kind ofstory and in the background,
while that was happening with myown business, I was doing a few
workshops you might saycoaching trying to support other
smaller operators that werestarting up and as similar to
what's happened in in Americawith LifeTouch is, you get
(25:25):
people that have worked for thatcompany for a long time that
then decide to move on and whenthey move on, they may start up
their own business.
And what was happening similarin the UK is people were leaving
and they were naturally comingto.
People like myself who'dalready already done that as
well, start up their ownbusiness.
And what was happening similarin the UK is people were leaving
and they were naturally comingto people like myself who'd
already done that as well, andgetting support and and and and,
realizing that actually theycould do it on their own.
You know they could do it ontheir own and with the software
(25:48):
options that are out there beingvery successful very quickly as
well at doing it on their own.
So the Facebook group was verymuch for me.
It was sort of therapy formyself almost.
It's like I was able to, youknow, put things out there and
then people started to realisevery, very quickly that there
was almost a need.
You know, other people wantedtherapy too, other people wanted
(26:08):
to know that they were doingthe same thing wrong in a
different place, whether that'sin the world or whether that's
in in the uk.
I mean, most people in thegroup are uk.
That's the huge majority, butthere are now a lot of americans
because of spac I've been outthere a lot of people have
joined.
There's a lot of australians inthere some south africans as
well, and you know we've gotwe've got a whole wide range of
(26:30):
people that I've got the sameproblem, no matter where you are
in the world, with, with volumephotography and with questions
with lighting and all that sortof stuff.
Gary Pageau (26:39):
And do you have the same challenges that they have
in the United States withstudent privacy Cause that's a
big issue here where some of thetechnology I mean for some of
that what?
Is the situation over there.
Ian Hatch (26:51):
Well, I think you'll find it that GDPR is one of
those words, that we call itgdpr, the general data
protection regulation.
Gary Pageau (26:58):
Yeah, we have here so, yeah, same thing.
Ian Hatch (27:01):
So I mean, from from our point of view, it's not so
much of a problem in that we aredealing with school offices and
, uh, principals and that thepeople that are responsible for
what goes on in the school, andquite often what happens is that
they get the wrong informationand believe they can't share
(27:22):
anything with you becausethey're trying to protect the
parents and quite often you knowthere's a lot of
miscommunication and they don'treally understand and all that
sort of stuff.
So it's actually quite hard workas a business person persuading
the school and saying actuallywhat we're doing here is to
benefit the school, to benefitthe parents, to make it easier
for the parents and so, yeah,gdpr is a.
(27:43):
There's been a few hoops thatwe've had to sort of jump
through to make sure that we'redoing the right thing.
Um, and ultimately we are doingthe right thing, as long, as
you know, consent is given bythe parents ultimately, and in
most cases that's well, in99.999 percent of the time,
that's that is the case, becauseobviously, if we say to our
schools if, if there is anyissue with gdpr, you don't want
(28:03):
your children to be photographed, then we won't photograph them,
and and that has to be thestarting point.
It really does.
But, you know, most of the timeparents want the photos or they
want to see them.
Even if they don't want to buythem, they want to be able to.
They're quite happy to havetheir child photographed for
record.
Um, as you know, as far as myexperiences go, really and they
(28:24):
have done for a for a long time-are uk photographers also doing
all the other things like idbadges and those kind of things?
yeah, yeah, I mean id badges.
Uh, photographers do do and andmake that available in this.
Normally that's more of asecondary or a high school thing
.
The market I've been focusingon is primary age, so the
six-year-olds to 11-year-olds iswhat I focus on.
(28:46):
We don't really get much callfor id badges.
You do get them for staff idbadges.
You know that staff needingthem.
But the senior market marketthe 11 year olds to 16 year olds
there's a little bit more ofthat.
But again, id badges are notnecessarily something in this
country that we haven't reallytaken on that.
Gary Pageau (29:03):
We've got different security concerns, frankly in
the UK than in the United StatesSocially.
So that's yeah, Now over herein terms of copyright, you know
we've got several states thatare saying you know you have to
delete the images after twoyears and things like that.
Is there anything like thathappening in the uk because of
the?
Ian Hatch (29:22):
uk schools, a lot of them now, are in trusts, you
know, groups of schools, youhave this in districts, I think,
and things like that over there.
So so we, we have trusts.
So sometimes you, there mightbe a trust driven concept that
we have to follow but notnormally to do.
I mean, occasionally I getquestions about how long you're
going to keep the images andthat sort of stuff and we just,
(29:43):
you know, we can get rid of themwhenever you like, really, if
you want us to.
But ultimately those questionsdo come up, but I don't think
it's quite as a much of an issueas it might be in some of the
places in in the us, in thestates.
Really, we are very lucky.
I think our market is barelysimplistic, depend, uh, base,
you know, compared to some ofthe things that happen.
I mean, when I, when I go tosome of the events at SPAC and
(30:05):
listen to them talk aboutdistrict tenders and things like
that, I think I'm so glad I'mnot in that world.
But we, we are very lucky thatwe, most of the time and it
still seems to be the case nowuh, individual decisions are
made by individual schools andthat's really, really good for
us?
Um, because it means that youcan really focus on working on
(30:27):
the schools you want rather thanthe ones you don't, because
there's quite a lot of schoolsin a trust that some of them,
you don't actually even want.
Really, you don't want thecontract for all of them,
because there are certain onesthat you, you specifically want.
So, yeah, and that's the samefor me down here.
I mean, I'm very focused onbeing regional.
I don't go any further than, uh, 60 miles that way to the right
.
If you go to the left, it'samerica as far as you go,
(30:47):
because I'm right down thebottom of cornwall so I've only
got a 60 mile radius going tothe right of where I live.
that I would really want to workin at the moment.
I mean and that may change aswe get bigger and bigger but at
the minute I'm happy with thatkind of you know we're not
having to drive to too much morethan about an hour a day to any
(31:08):
sort of school really.
Gary Pageau (31:10):
So let's talk a little bit about the MoFoto
community and the MoFotoin-person events you've kind of
done, because that's sort ofbeen an outgrowth of this.
It started as a two-personFacebook page and it's really
grown into a pretty significantentity, like you said, filling a
(31:32):
vacuum that PSBA UK once held.
Like you said, filling a vacuumthat PSPA UK once held, and I
don't think you know I mean SPAChas tried some.
I know they did a meeting lastyear in the UK.
I don't know if they did itthis year, but it's certainly
something that you know there'san appetite for, so you've
tapped into that, yeah, yeah, Imean, there's a couple of us in
the industry.
Ian Hatch (31:49):
We mentioned a few names earlier.
There's Harry out in Norway,there's a few in europe, a few
people, and nothing would pleaseme more than to get a european
version of smack going,something like that.
That would be really, reallygreat, but I suppose, in the
meantime, the the best versionof it is the online community
that we've currently got um, andthat that community, as I say,
(32:10):
and now it's grown to us thesize it has grown to, we're
attracting people who want tolearn more, and in some cases,
they're people that have been inthe industry a long time.
I've been saying that I'm goingto do some workshops and now,
especially now in the last yearor so, I've not only have I said
I can do it, I've proved that Ican do it by running my own
business from scratch, really.
So to then have a workshopsaying, look, you know, I
(32:31):
started with nothing and nowI've got this.
Uh, this is how I did it.
I'm quite happy to share thatwith anybody who wants to come,
and so I had, uh, what I have.
I've done some zooms this yearwith with uh, 12, 12 or 14
people in it.
Last year I went on about fouror five different road shows
around the country doing it.
I also went to a got photoroadshow this year with with
some of their users at thatevent as well.
(32:52):
But yeah, mo, photo has growninto this marketplace.
I suppose where you can get helpreally and the extension of
that is running these, theseworkshops.
But as I say to anybody thatcomes to any of my workshops,
ultimate all I'm interested inis finding ways in which I can
help them to win some tools orkeep the ones they've got, or be
more profitable or find bettersolutions of working in this
(33:14):
industry.
Because you know, I'm a verysimple guy and with my business
I'm an outsourcer.
I don't like to do any work.
Yeah, I don't want to doanything for myself.
I want to be able to use theservices that are out there
right, and there are people thatcan do it better than you.
It's like my.
I don't do my own printingbecause I would never want to do
that, because there are greatprinters out there that you can
automate your processes with.
(33:35):
Same goes for.
That's how I feel, and ifanybody wants to run their
business differently, I've beeninvolved with businesses that
run it where they own it allthemselves.
It's all in-house.
Gary Pageau (33:45):
Yeah, the vertically integrated model, as
they say, totally, and that canwork.
I mean, that's one of thebeautiful things about this.
Yeah, there's really no one wayto do it, or not?
I mean, when I talk to peopleat SPAC or SPOA or things you
know, it's always interesting tosee when you hear people saying
oh, you know, I, you know, Iused to print, then I outsourced
(34:06):
it and I'm much more profitable.
And then there's other peoplesaying you know, I outsource
some, but I'm going to bring inthe gift items.
Right, I'm going to do thosein-house.
And you have that flexibility.
Ian Hatch (34:19):
It's perfect because I've got quite a few people who
I speak to who are in MoFoto,who they would always want to
print their own stuff becausethey really, truly believe
they're making more money and Ithink they are making more money
for sure than I am, but I'mhappier.
Do you know what I mean?
So you can look at it indifferent ways really.
I mean he's happier becausehe's got more money, I'm happier
because I've got more time, youknow.
(34:40):
So what suits you?
It doesn't necessarily suitothers, but the good thing about
it is to be able to look at itfrom you know, without ego.
Look at it and say actually,yeah, that suits you, you do it
that way.
But here are some other waysyou can do these things.
And I'm not here to tell you tochange and I'm not necessarily
saying I'm the guru, but I'mcertainly someone who's got a
lot of experience of it beingdone in different ways.
(35:02):
And you know, like I say, I'veworked for that company.
It's all in-house.
I mean, I'll tell you whatanother thing is.
You probably don't realize I'veactually been to LifeTouch's
headquarters in Minneapolis.
I've actually been in theboardroom there a few times
because our company in the UKused to have a relationship with
LifeTouch and so we sometimesdid an exchange visit.
So I went with three of ourother senior managers out to
(35:24):
Minneapolis, probably 2000, andtrying to think now 17.
It was just before they, orjust after they bought
Shutterstock, not ShutterstockShutterfly.
Yeah, just after they boughtshutterfly.
Gary Pageau (35:36):
I literally went out, it was the other way around
.
Shutterfly bought them.
Ian Hatch (35:39):
But yeah, yeah, sorry , I mean the other way around,
but shutterfly bought them.
I went out literally as thatchangeover was, uh was happening
and uh again, it was reallyinteresting because they were
very, very in-house, almostinsular, it's kind of kind of
business where they didn'treally outside influences,
weren't really coming in.
So that was amazing timebecause they finally got all
this, these onlookers fromoutside coming in and sort of
(36:02):
trying to shuffle the businessaround and change it a little
bit really.
But and again, I'm notnecessarily saying that was a
good thing for life touchpossibly, um, because you know,
like, like with everything, mostof the actual, real business is
done down at ground level bythe local people servicing
photographers, servicing thoseschools.
That's where you know even thecompany I worked for before.
(36:23):
That's where they're strong.
They're not necessarily strongbecause of their name or because
of their legacy.
It's about those human beingsthat they've got on the ground
in those areas that make itreally, really special.
And that's why I knew when Igrew my business that I could be
like that.
You know, it's you.
You just have to become thego-to person in your area, um,
or the one of the go-to choicesin your areas.
(36:44):
That's why, especially withdoing something like moving
memories, it made me stand out alittle bit.
So I I think I gained anadvantage because I had
something totally differentthey'd not seen before.
So you know, that did help mewith a fairly quick increase in
the numbers and stuff.
Gary Pageau (37:00):
And you had the flexibility to be able to turn
on a dime and do that.
You want to introduce a newproduct, make a change.
You don't have to run it up thedistrict and run it up the
corporate and have somebody upon it and run it down and then
you know, have, have you know,17 people in marketing?
Look at it and everything else.
Ian Hatch (37:17):
you can pretty much and then and then it still
wouldn't go anywhere.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Do you know what I mean?
Honestly, it's so true.
Some of these businesses is youknow.
Uh, it was quite interesting.
Life touch as well.
They talked about backgroundreplacement, or what they call
it.
Yeah, the three letter acronym,was it brt?
They called it back onreplacement therapy I always
think of.
Anyway, when I went to seeLifeTouch, they were almost
(37:38):
upset that they'd introduced itto the market because it became
a bit of a pain in the ass forthem.
Do you know what?
I mean it's like they theycreated this new thing, which
you know was was quite good, andyou know you have all these
different types.
Parents loved it.
Yeah, exactly, but because theycreated it and they made it
happen, it then became almostneat, well wanted, needed in the
marketplace.
It was interesting that theirtake on it was oh my God, we've
(38:00):
created this monster.
Gary Pageau (38:02):
And you know, we've created a whole industry for
ourselves.
Yeah, ultimately.
Ian Hatch (38:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Exactly so, yeah, it just made
me laugh.
And that what's also made melaugh is my company that I used
to work for is now doing thesame thing down here.
They've just started doing, youknow, image replacement for
backgrounds and things like that.
But it's just good to have acommunity out there that we can
talk about these things really,and I'm a massive fan of SPAC
(38:27):
and what Calvin and Corey andeven Matt the younger ones
they've got now coming throughon the board at SPAC, what
they're doing and again, again,emulating that anywhere else in
the world, um, you know,especially in Europe would be
brilliant, I think, really, andand the Facebook group is a
little tiny bit of that really alittle tiny bit of support for
for us out there.
So awesome.
Gary Pageau (38:48):
Well, where can people go for more information
about MoFoto, Hatchboxphotography, moving memories,
all the other things that you'reinvolved in?
100%?
Ian Hatch (39:00):
Gary, thank you very much for that.
Well, there's two things youcan do.
One is just go to Facebook ifyou're not already part of the
group.
It's all about volumephotography for schools, nursery
sports, dance, mainly in the UKand Europe, but all across the
world.
We've got people from all overthe world.
We've got people from all overthe world, so don't be
frightened of joining that group.
Facebook group is called MoFotoM-O-F-O-T-O.
(39:21):
We also have a Facebook groupfor moving memories as well, so
that's like a users and supportgroup.
So if you use moving memoriesin your business, or you want to
, or you're interested in it,there's a support group called
moving Memories Support and UserGroup.
Ok, that one's only got about232 people in it because it's
really new.
(39:49):
And again, that's a place whereI often post information about
what I'm doing with MovingMemories and how I do things,
because people always ask how doyou do it?
Why do you do it?
All those sorts of questionsare answered in there, because
ultimately for me, that issomething that really even this
year as well.
We're doing something calledtime tag hoodies.
So we've got hoodies now thatcome to life.
So this particular image on myarm when you hold your phone
over it, it plays a video aswell, so that's something that
(40:14):
can also enhance what I do inlevers, because every lever in
the uk has a hoodie so we'relooking at selling hoodies that
have an image on that plays avideo that ties into the
photography that we do as well.
So there's there's lots oflittle exciting things going on,
but wait and get hold of me.
Facebook group mofoto.
Facebook group moving memorysupport and User Group it's
(40:36):
called Awesome.
Gary Pageau (40:36):
Well, thank you, ian, it's been great catching up
.
It's always a pleasure when Isee you at SPAC and look forward
to seeing what you're up toagain.
Ian Hatch (40:44):
Thank you very much Gary take care.
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