July 3, 2025 • 35 mins
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The quiet power brokers in your organization aren't always who you think. Michelle J Howe, founder of Empath Evolution, reveals a startling truth on the Dead Pixels Society podcast: Roughly 25% of your workforce consists of highly empathic individuals who dramatically influence your company's energy, culture, and success.
As Howe shares her transformation from structured accountant to empathic mentor, she uncovers the hidden dynamics playing out in workplaces everywhere. These empaths—people who can absorb and process others' emotions—often excel in sales, leadership, and relationship-building roles. Yet without proper understanding and boundaries, they risk burnout, exhaustion, and ultimately leaving your organization.
"When you're very empathic, you best beware," Howe cautions, "because you're going to need that mental health day." She distinguishes between true empathy and those who use emotional intelligence manipulatively, offering practical guidance for identifying and nurturing empathic talent during interviews. Her insights challenge the dismissive notion that emotional intelligence is merely "touchy-feely" business speak, instead positioning it as a critical competitive advantage.
Howe discusses toxic workplace personalities and their outsized impact. "If companies recognize this is a lose-lose situation," she explains, employees must be held accountable for the energy they bring to work daily. This responsibility extends to leaders, who set the emotional tone through their own behavior and communication style.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau.
Today we're joined by MichelleJ Howe, who is with the Empath
Evolution, and she's coming tous from Syracuse, New York.
Hi, Michelle, how are you today?
Michelle Howe (00:32):
Awesome, Gary, how are you?
Gary Pageau (00:33):
I'm doing great.
Before we get into, you knowyour business as a mentor and a
person who helps other people.
Where did you get your start?
Michelle Howe (00:42):
I started.
I was born on March 25th 1968.
Gary Pageau (00:47):
No, I mean in the business world.
How did you get in the businessworld?
Michelle Howe (00:50):
Well, you know, when I was young, my mom and dad
they my mom especially, she wasreally she took care of all the
finances.
We had rental properties and Itake care of the books and
everything I really like.
Well, this is so interesting.
So I went to school foraccounting because I was really
good at math, really good atsolving puzzles, I was really
(01:11):
good at seeing how everythingfit together and it came easy to
me.
I've always been like curious,introspective, analytical, but
went into accounting and Iactually tried to take a
psychology course.
Okay, I'm like, you know,because I just loved analyzing
people and I took this courseand I'm like this is such bs.
(01:33):
I'm like this is not the waythat people are and I'm like I
cannot take this course, thismakes no sense.
So, of course, I graduated withaccounting and computers.
I went, I became a CPA.
I did consulting and didbusiness plan advising.
I worked with entrepreneurs.
My intuition, the way I wasmoving through life, I had some
(02:08):
unusual things come my way.
You know, like anybody else,when you get hit by a two, by
four, or when your life takes a90 degree turn and you're not
sure why it turned.
You didn't turn it Like I justdove really deep into the
personal development area tofigure myself out.
Okay.
(02:29):
This was when I was almost about.
I was about 40 years old.
You know everybody's got theirown little story or big story.
Something goes awry right.
For me it was.
I don't understand whysomething is coming to my life,
why I'm confused by this.
I don't understand.
I could wreck my life really.
(02:50):
Why am I making the decisionsthat I'm making?
I started to question myself,and before then everything was
pretty.
I'm doing this and I'm doingthat.
This is how this goes.
Life made sense to me.
Right.
This specific example.
My behavior was, my choicesdidn't quite make sense and I
(03:11):
noticed that I was makingexcuses.
I thought I was smarter, Ithought I had it all figured out
, and you don't have it allfigured out.
Gary Pageau (03:21):
The older you get, the less you have it all figured
out.
I find out.
Michelle Howe (03:25):
Well, you know, when you find out that you
really don't have it all figuredout.
The older you get, the less youhave it all figured out.
I find out.
Well, you know, when you findout that you really don't maybe
know everything, or maybe it wasa book you didn't read.
You know, you were the smartestperson in the room and then all
of a sudden, gosh, what is thisabout?
I didn't know this was evenpossible to that end.
I went through like a hugeshift.
I was depressed, searching,looking, put myself into therapy
(03:50):
.
You tell me what is wrong.
You know why.
Why did this thing come into mylife and what does this mean?
I'd like to think that I knewwhat I was doing.
Gary Pageau (03:59):
I mean honestly, if you go back to your, you know
interested in numbers and andaccounting and things like that,
that's putting things in theright place, right.
Michelle Howe (04:06):
That's really what it's about it's about
making sense of the world aroundme, right?
exactly this goes here andbecause of that and I didn't
have an answer for it.
So, um, I went into therapy andafter six months I looked at
the lady.
I go listen, whatever you'reselling, whatever you're
thinking, this doesn't make anysense from my experience.
This isn't helping, and Iactually, I actually went to a
(04:33):
psychic fair and I went aroundand I looked around.
I'm like one of these women isgoing to help me and I'm going
to know who it is, and I did.
I found someone.
I had a reading.
She was really seasoned mediumand she told me this story.
That just blew me away and I'mlike what?
It wasn't just, she told me astory.
(04:54):
I could feel that what she wassaying, right, felt emotionally
like completely, yeah, shecompletely gets it.
This story, this synopsis ofwhat she's explaining to me,
makes perfect sense from myexperience.
I started devouring a littlebit of what was outside of the
(05:15):
norm way of looking at life and,mind you, I've always been that
deep person, I've always lookedat things more and it just kind
of got back to my roots.
Yes, I do believe in intuition.
Yes, I do believe in things aremeant to be.
Yes, I do believe there's anattraction for certain.
Well, yes, I do believe I canfeel like I would be able.
(05:38):
Whenever I would meet and myhusband always said there was
must be something wrong with meI'd go to conferences or
seminars or wherever, and Iwould have people sharing their
most deepest, painful momentswith me.
Right.
And I felt so like oh well,that's fine, you know I'm
honored, it's fine I'm listeningto them, but that that was
(06:01):
actually a thing Right.
Gary Pageau (06:04):
It was a thing that happened.
Michelle Howe (06:05):
A thing that sort of didn't happen to everybody.
Right.
But it was happening to me, ithad always happened to me.
But now I really got joltedfrom this last experience enough
that I'm going to pay attentionto what this is.
Sure, because I'm smarter thanwhat this is Like I can
technically.
I'm going to pay attention towhat this is because I'm smarter
(06:25):
than what this is Like I cantechnically.
I'm very intuitive, I can readpeople very well.
I'm like how could somethingget the best of me?
So here's that, like I don'twant to say ego, but confidence
in that.
No, tell me what this is.
So what I found out was that Ihad always been very empathic.
(06:46):
What that means is not justthat you can feel other people,
you understand them, but peopleyou can uplift another person
just by sharing space with them,shift the way that you're.
You know, here's this paincoming out, and by talking to me
they leave feeling better.
(07:07):
Sure.
I never realized that I wasimpacted.
I just was listening.
Right.
But all my life I would get.
I had like emotional rollercoasters at different points.
I'm like, why am I so emotional?
I'm like I am freaking moodysometimes, right, why the heck
am I moody?
And I'm like, why am I soemotional?
(07:27):
I'm like I am freaking moodysometimes, right, am I moody.
And I'm like I could neverlogically put that together.
I'm like, well, I don't know,it must be just being a woman.
I go through my cycles and thisis what it is.
I'm moody.
But what I found out was thatactually, some of us are so
empathic that we not only canunderstand another person, we
(07:48):
can lighten the load that otherpeople carry.
We make people feel better.
A lot of times we go into, webecome social workers,
psychologists, right.
But when I started lookingaround, I'm like, oh my God, I
didn't know this was a thing,right.
And when I look around, I see alot of people that are empathic,
(08:08):
and then I see them depressed,and then I see them drinking a
lot, and then I like I'm tuninginto all these people.
I'm like they don't realizethat they're exchanging energy
with other people, right, andthat exchange can impact them in
a negative way, depending onhow they're engaging, how much
(08:29):
they care, how much do theyempathize.
So that's where I learned aboutenergetic boundaries, not just
regular boundaries Right, andyou can really feel another
person.
It's like you open, they havean access to you and you have
access to them.
It can be very intimate, it canbe very intrusive, it can be
(08:50):
very damaging.
You can walk away feelingexhausted, fatigued, like think
about it in a business settingRight, the guy comes in the room
for a meeting and he's ajackass.
Everybody knows he's a jackass.
Right.
The energy of the room for ameeting and he's a jackass.
Everybody knows he's a jackass.
Right, the energy of the roomcompletely drops.
(09:15):
Right, nobody's saying a word,nobody dares to say a word,
right, right.
So it's think of it, as youhave stories out there
narcissist, empath.
Right, the narcissist justwants this, everything they want
.
Right, they're taking and theempath is giving.
And I'm like, wow, that doesn'treally paint empaths in a good
light.
There's a codependence going onthere.
But if you talk to people thatare very empathic, they're very
(09:35):
caring, they want to help otherpeople.
They need the best in the otherperson, then you know, of course
you get the one that's a littlebit more savvy in the other
person.
Then you know, of course youget the one that's a little bit
more savvy.
No, I'm not dealing with thisnegativity Right.
This isn't happening.
But a lot of times, like I'vemet some of my very good friends
(09:55):
that started and they've beenclients.
Michelle, I went through thisdrinking thing.
I just couldn't do.
I didn't know what to do.
I was overwhelmed.
There's too much I don't wantto say.
They don't even describe it asnoise.
They just I just need a beer.
I just I just need somethingbecause my head's spinning.
And actually a lot ofsalespeople are naturally quite
(10:18):
empathic.
So that's what makes someone avery good salesperson and gain
that level of trust.
But then you know you findpeople that know how this
intuitive connection to anotherperson and they use it to
benefit themselves.
They use it in a negative way.
So, technically.
(10:39):
No, you're not empathic, you'rejust using that empathy.
You're not empathic, you'rejust using that empathy.
And what happens when you usethat empathy and you're using it
to manipulate or to gainadvantage or to really find the
weak spots in another person andexploit them?
Right.
Right, that would be labeled anarcissist, if we were talking
about labels, right.
Right.
Yeah, right.
(11:00):
So at the end of the day, Ilooked at everything and I was
doing my accounting, myentrepreneurial training, and I
was meeting different people andI'm like, well, I understood
them because I understood thevision of what they were trying
to create and I'm very creativemyself and I'm like I can help
you with your business and thishelps, but I'm like I'm more
(11:20):
interested in the person that'sin front of me rather than your
business.
Gary Pageau (11:27):
People are your business right.
Michelle Howe (11:29):
People are.
I mean, I see people as we'rehere to grow, we're here to
learn, we're here.
Oftentimes we go along withwhat's in front of us, we're
making the things.
Oftentimes we're a littleunaware, unconscious to our own
emotions, what we truly feel,because we're always looking out
(11:50):
at the world.
We're looking out for love,we're looking out for success,
we're looking out for what am Idoing next?
What's happening?
Very few of us spend the timeto look or even notice that what
we have inside is really whatmakes us happy or unhappy.
(12:11):
Right, we're always looking tofeed something from the outside,
whereas I look at it as anunfolding that some of us are
here to really do amazing things.
And the sky's the limit, andyour childhood was or wasn't,
doesn't need to continue tocarry on.
What you create in your life,whether you are wounded,
(12:34):
traumatized, um labeled, youfeel misunderstood.
Right the answer is empowermentthe answer is empowerment.
The answer is to get a lot morecomfortable with the unseen, the
intuitive, the balance of male,masculine and feminine, the
logic in the, in the feeling,right.
(12:58):
You know, the most importantthing in life is how you feel.
Most of us will find differentthings to patch up so we feel
good, we're distracted, whetherit's an addiction, whether it's
exercise, whether it's a hobby,we are finding things to help us
be happy.
Nothing wrong with that, it'sgood.
(13:20):
But what if we are just notfeeling great inside and not
knowing we continue to do thesame thing and we are not
getting out of this negativecycle, like we're not listening
to ourselves, we're notlistening to how we feel, we're
not prioritizing how we feel thething is well, I need to do
(13:41):
this, it's gotta be that, likeokay, before you know, know it,
your life is completely takinglike your attitude, mental
attitude, mental approach,energy level.
Life doesn't look so great whenyou're not following something
that's empowering you, that'suplifting you, like you're just
(14:01):
doing what you need to do, right, right.
And so many people follow thatformula.
So right now, through empathevolution, I set it up, I'm like
I'm talking to empaths and thenI'm like hold on.
Most of the people don't evenknow their empaths.
And even if they knew theirempaths, so what right right,
want people to understand thatfeeling emotions, all of that we
(14:25):
distract ourselves from, ispart of who we are, all of the
things that we hide aboutourselves, oh, I don't like.
You know, we put on a mask,right?
well I don't want people to knowI'm I'm this way or that way.
They might not.
You know I'm a horrible person,I'm a negative person, like I
have to put on this show, rightright, but at the end of the day
(14:47):
, this person's very insecure.
I'm like no, we're all here tolearn.
We're all here to grow.
We're here to evolve.
So I'm an evolutionary guidebecause we're here evolving into
the next version of ourselvesevery single day.
Gary Pageau (15:02):
So I have a couple of questions here because I kind
of want to kind of steer thistowards the business world,
right, because obviously thebusiness world is made up of
people.
Yes, and you know what I'vediscovered with talking to my
people in my audience like youknow, they're always trying to
balance their workforce.
Now, today's workforce is alittle more challenging because
(15:23):
it is so harder to find goodpeople and all the other stuff.
Challenging because it is soharder to find good people and
all the other stuff, but youknow.
So what percentage of you knowthe workforce do you think is
what you would call an empath?
Now, I'm sure everyone has thatto some ability.
You know where they're there,they can they feel that, but you
know where it's sort of liketheir thing.
Is it five, you know?
Michelle Howe (15:46):
I would say a good 25% of the workforce is
quite empathic.
Gary Pageau (15:51):
Okay, cause, cause, cause.
I mean there certainly arepeople who are like the other
way, that all they want to worryabout anything.
Right, and they're you know, andthey just you know they want to
do the process and they want towork with technology and not
deal with people, and they'reactually more comfortable
dealing with technology orpeople, right?
So I get that.
So now you said, empathicpeople are more attuned to like,
(16:15):
maybe sales functions or thingslike that.
How do you like, when you'reinterviewing people for jobs or
things, how do you like findthose people out?
Interviewing people for jobs orthings, how do you like find
those people out?
Because I think, especially inthe photo industry, you get
people who are maybe interestedin photography or technology,
but they're not greatsalespeople, right?
(16:36):
So can you talk a little bitabout how you kind of pinpoint,
in a business you know, acandidate who is more empathic,
who actually may excel at sales?
Michelle Howe (16:51):
Okay, know, a candidate who is more empathic,
who actually may excel at sales.
Okay, well, an empathic personthat excels in sales.
If I was interviewing, I wastalking to someone I would like
to see where they are flexible,where they're open, where
they're curious, they arelooking at a win-win with
another person.
That is a person that's leaningin, that wants to do good, and
(17:16):
the world is not just.
You know, yes, we need a salehere, right, but what am I
selling First off?
First off, am I going to sellsomething that I believe in?
This person is not just sellingto sell.
This person is selling becausethey believe in something.
Gary Pageau (17:31):
Right, okay, so there's.
Michelle Howe (17:33):
So there's a motivation there beyond just the
financial it's not the almightydollar that's the determinant,
although it's a factor right,they've got a broader purpose in
how they step forward.
They show a curiosity.
Gary Pageau (17:48):
They show a how do you find out someone, shows a
caring yeah, I was gonna say, Imean that's where I'm getting,
at all right.
I mean you've got yeah, you'vegot the person that got there.
You know is your meeting in aroom and you're, maybe you're
meeting in a coffee shop for thefirst time to do an interview
or something.
You know what are.
You know because clearlythere's things you can and can't
ask in an interview.
I'm pretty, you know, I want tokeep this all legal and all
(18:10):
that other stuff.
So so you know there's certainthings with you know certain
questions you can't ask orshouldn't ask, or better not ask
.
Michelle Howe (18:17):
Looking at what I would do, which would be what I
would do.
I would ask leading questions.
As you know, what is a learningexperience that took you by
surprise?
What was an experience that youthought could have worked
better, like you know?
Can you give me some solutionsto these things that might?
(18:39):
How would you solve thisproblem happening in a group?
What will be your go-to?
So you're really trying to makea determination over does this
person think outside the box atall?
What is this person looking at?
How do you denote a good fit?
What is a good fit for youAsking leading questions?
Where there's not one answer,it's how are they answering it?
(19:01):
And then?
So?
This is why empathic leadersare needed more than ever,
because when someone answers aquestion, you're not just taking
what they say.
You're listening to what theyfeel like.
You're listening to the tone,you're listening to the words
they choose.
You're watching them to seewhere they look.
When they look, it's likeyou're reading the person.
Gary Pageau (19:26):
They're looking at their watch while they're
talking to you, the person.
Michelle Howe (19:30):
How conscientious are they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How uplifted are they?
And I can't say exactly from anHR perspective what is most
appropriate Right.
A lot of HR people are veryempathic.
You need to be able to dealwith lots of different
personalities.
Yeah, yeah.
Then an empathic person canshift, depending on who they're
talking to, very quickly rightwhen people get in trouble is
(19:52):
when they are so empathic thatthey care.
Gary Pageau (19:58):
And they care too much, maybe for the workplace,
maybe that might be a little.
Michelle Howe (20:03):
And they care too much.
Or the problem is when you takethings on and you don't know
that you've taken them on andthey exhaust you right and it's
really about.
Oh yes, on one hand, I wouldlike people to be more empathic,
because there's such a skillthat comes it's a blessing, but
on the other hand, if you'revery empathic, you best beware,
(20:24):
because we're going to exhaustyou well, yeah, you're gonna,
you're to need that mentalhealth day, right.
Yes, you need to manage how youconnect with another person
because everybody is completelydifferent and I'll give you an
example.
So I have a curiosity.
That's number one.
I was doing some entrepreneurialcoaching with a man and he was
(20:46):
pretty amazing, like nicelooking guy.
He turned every woman's headthat came into that place.
You know, the first time in mylife I ever noticed that, oh my
God, I think they're actuallylike treating him like he's a
piece of meat.
Honest to God, I was like andso I started helping him with
his business and I was curiousabout him and he showed me all
(21:11):
this wonderful side.
But I took a deeperienced atthe point to see I learned a
huge lesson from this manbecause I got a little too like.
(21:32):
He loved talking to me, heloved coming to have and I'm
like, well, that's fine, youknow, I found him fascinating.
But then this very negative, Iwould say abusive I get my way
kind of man, Right.
One point I think he called, Igot a phone call and I think it
(21:53):
was him, but I wasn't sure and Iwas home, Right, I'm like I'm
not picking up the phone.
Right.
Time he saw me.
No joke, he completely like youknow you take your words and
you can yell at someone or youcan even whisper at someone, but
depending on that intensity ofhow you aim those words at
(22:13):
another person right I felt hiswords come right through me and
like bang, it was like if he hadlike a gun, I would have gotten
shot.
It would have been that's.
Gary Pageau (22:26):
Because you didn't pick up the phone.
Michelle Howe (22:28):
Because I didn't pick up the phone.
Gary Pageau (22:30):
Hmm, hmm.
Michelle Howe (22:31):
What does that sound like?
That sounds like the abusiveyou know Right Relationship,
that, the dynamics that canhappen.
But my point is I didn't see it.
I had never engaged withsomething like usually.
Sure.
But I didn't see it.
And these dynamics areeverywhere.
And if you don't have thatcertain amount of knowledge of
(22:54):
yourself, Sure.
And how far into another personyou go.
So when you're curious, you doa deep dive, like every one of
us I don't know if your audiencewill we all bring our energy
forward and it's our right, butit's our energy right.
Walk in the room, certainpeople you know, immediate here,
(23:14):
they are right before they evensay a word.
Here they are, there's theirpresence right there.
So, as managers, as businesspeople, you're responsible for
how you show up, how you feel.
Feeling radiates out to otherpeople, sure?
So what do you want in yourbusiness?
You want some radiatingtoxicity or do you want, um, you
(23:40):
know, enthusiasm and innovation.
Gary Pageau (23:42):
yeah, I like that Radiating toxicity.
Michelle Howe (23:47):
Because those people exist.
Gary Pageau (23:50):
Oh, absolutely.
And I guess my question thereis let's say, for example, you
take over a department in yourcorporate, you know, let's say,
for example, you're running thebinding department and you've
got, then you have that personwho radiates toxicity.
What can you do about that?
Because you're not talkingabout probably a trait that can
(24:11):
be eradicated, if you will,without a great deal of therapy,
which you're not there to do.
It's a job.
Michelle Howe (24:17):
Yeah, what I would say to that is, if the
companies and the businesses inthis world and the leaders of
this world recognize that thiswas a lose-lose situation, right
, you cannot have those playersthere.
And if you make it a conditionof employment of we have these
(24:38):
values, our values are this andwe expect our people my husband
works in corporate with a lot ofpeople, right, and I understand
the dilemma of the leaders andwho's babysitting, who, right,
who's taking care of what?
Each person needs to be heldresponsible for what they bring
(25:02):
to the table every day.
And then some training thatwould.
That would help them see amirror in front of them.
What's your behavior like?
What is the, what's thedownfall of this, of this
behavior?
Yeah, for you, but foreverybody around us right.
How do we make them take acloser look into who they are?
And you do that by leading byexample.
(25:24):
We leaders take a closer lookat how we show up, how we
measure up in our approach inour language, our communication,
our attitude.
You know the mental space.
There should be a standard forthat.
There's some points for that.
This is how you show up, andyou're showing up at a 10, 9 out
(25:47):
of 10 days, right?
Oh no, you're showing up at a 3at best every day.
Can we help our people, whichare the most important resource
in a company?
Step it up to a 7 or 8?
Gary Pageau (26:00):
Right?
Well, you know I mean what Iwas getting to is I think
there's this sort of things thathappens within companies and
your husband, since he works atCorporate America, probably sees
it a lot more yeah when youhave people who are like, hey,
they're good at their job.
Let's say, for example, they'regood at operating a piece of
machinery and now we're going tomake that person head of the
department.
Well, they may not even be avery good person, the right
(26:24):
leader for that department, butbecause they've kind of reached
a certain point in the businesswhere we got to do something
with this person, becausethey've been here for 10 years
and they're looking to getpromoted, but you may be putting
somebody in a position who'sill-suited to deal with people.
Michelle Howe (26:38):
Yeah, right.
Right, so I mean it's like.
This is a huge topic actually,because you're trying to in any
business, you're trying to findthe right person for the right
role and you're going to call itempathy or social um, social
intelligence social intelligence, emotional intelligence, all of
(27:09):
these things, all of thosethings are key elements, right,
just because and not everybodyis good at that right, exactly,
at a certain level, everybodyshould be working to attain at
least a five or six well, that'swhat I'm saying.
Gary Pageau (27:22):
I mean, you may be able to take a three to a five,
but they're never going to getto a nine.
Michelle Howe (27:26):
No, no, they're not made for that.
So then you just have to takepeople for where they're at.
But if the language is a littlebit like, I think, too easily
we, I think it's actually evenmisunderstood.
What does it mean to beemotionally intelligent?
What does it mean to beempathic?
Gary Pageau (27:44):
Right, Well, in the business world it's like you
know.
Hey, that's a little too touchyfeet, that even mean you know.
Michelle Howe (27:51):
Yeah, how do I even?
But if you really look at themost successful leaders, they
carry that right.
They're able to connect, theydo care and anything.
If you're not empathic, are younarcissistic and how does that
impact people?
Right, what does every personneed to understand?
How they're engaging, how theyshow up.
(28:11):
Does that work?
You don't have to be a high-endempathic person.
You just have to be a personthat respects the space around
you.
Gary Pageau (28:21):
Right?
Or if you're a person who isnot empathetic, but you have
someone to report to you is justunderstand the situations you
may be putting into them may beoverwhelming them or emotionally
exhausting them, right?
How do you?
Michelle Howe (28:34):
that's a good point too.
How do you manage somebody whois more empathic and more
impacted by oh, you're yellingat me or I can't say anything in
this meeting because, like,they need to be boosted up, they
need to learn skills to shiftup or they leave, is what
happens.
Yeah, this is not my, you know,this is not my rodeo show.
(28:54):
I'm not going to stay here.
You people are toxic to me,right, which is not what we want
.
We want a win-win across theboard.
Gary Pageau (29:02):
Well, that's it, that's what I'm saying.
I mean that person who you knowthe department head may find
tiresome because they areempathic, may be one of the best
people on the team because theywork well with others.
Michelle Howe (29:13):
Right, so are there tools or programs or
anything out there thatemployers can look at for this
kind of thing?
I don't think directly.
Okay, and there are people outthere teaching about wellness
and teaching some empathy, butit's not enough and it's still
(29:36):
seen as a weakness.
Gary Pageau (29:37):
Yeah, that's.
That's kind of my point is thatit's you know the weakness, you
know what I mean, cause there'slike the, you know the various
emotional tests you can take.
You know the NTJ or whatever.
It is kind of testing.
But you know I'm not surethey're they're doing the right
function for that.
Michelle Howe (29:52):
They're categorizing what people are.
So the NTJ, all that stuff, iscategorizing you, but I'm
talking about something thathelps people become more
centered in who they are, moreconfident, more clear, more
communicative instead of hiding.
Step forward.
This is what stepping forwardinstead of being confused if
(30:15):
you're not good enough, stepforward.
So it's personal development.
But that personal developmentchanges.
How they show up at workchanges everything.
So if we can inject some ofthat development soft skill in a
person to say hey, which areas,what emotions, how is your
(30:36):
mental going, are you afraid?
You know what?
Almost like assessing them on aset of emotional balance type
assessment.
How are they doing?
How are you doing?
Sure, almost like assessingthem on a set of emotional
balance type assessment?
How are they doing?
How are you doing Sure, andthen providing some resources,
(30:58):
that some training, that is justoverall high level to help them
get a little clearer onsolutions might be for them and
then people can go deeper intoit, because so many people, I
mean our formative years are oneto nine, one to seven, right,
many people come into this worldand they're raised by parents
who only knew what they knew.
Right.
(31:19):
Love maybe, but there's alsotrauma maybe.
So how do we level out?
Because every person I know ishealing, shifting, releasing
things, dealing with emotionsthat they may not even know are
playing out in the background,but their attitudes can be sharp
and be not happy people.
Either they hide it or theydon't hide it.
(31:42):
Either way is not a good thing.
You know we have to go intopsychotherapy for this, and is
that a solution or is itsomething that?
Let me help you understand thisat a root level.
Right.
As this is a skill and aknowledge and you know when you
see somebody acting out in theworkplace, when you see someone
miserable out in the workplace.
When you see someone miserable,there's underlying reasons why
(32:04):
that exists.
Right.
So, if you can come in, notspecifically directing it at any
one person- but, speak to thetopic in general and speak to it
as an important ingredient ofsuccess.
It's inner success.
So many people that I meet canaccomplish all kinds of outer
(32:26):
success.
Right.
But when you really get into theprivate world that they live in
, they are not happy.
Gary Pageau (32:34):
Well, and do you think it's because they're
trying to look for happiness intheir work?
Michelle Howe (32:38):
Maybe work becomes a distraction.
They become good at makingmoney.
They become good at thissuccess formula that they've
bought into.
So instead of well, this ispainful, over here I'm just
going to do all the things I dogood at.
So people love me.
Or I feel powerful because, orI feel like I'm a success,
because look at my success, it'sself-evident, it's right.
(33:00):
Here I'm going to focus myattention on all my success and
forget about what I'm gamblingon a side away, forget about
what I'm drinking away, forgetabout the fact that I'm lonely
and people leave me right.
Those are, you know, all partof healthy, healthy living.
(33:21):
Healthy happiness.
You can buy, you can try to gobuy it, but there's plenty of
poor people that are happy.
Gary Pageau (33:29):
Right, well, money can't buy happiness.
That's what they say, right.
Michelle Howe (33:32):
That is true, very true.
Gary Pageau (33:34):
So where can people go to get more information
about the things you do?
Michelle Howe (33:41):
They can go to my website.
Gary Pageau (33:42):
It's empath evolutioncom and you've got a
lot of cool resources there.
This is what I'm looking at.
Michelle Howe (33:50):
It's pretty awesome thank you, I do, I do.
There's a quiz on the page, notthat it's not the end dollar or
the be all right, are you anempath?
And then there is, you cansubscribe and you'll get some
free things.
I send out free content andkeep people informed.
I do um a master, like I have asignature program that I move
(34:11):
people through if they'reinterested in a community.
That comes with that, so youknow.
But that's after an initialconversation and initial
understanding of what you havegoing on.
And if you really want to talkto me immediately, just email me
at michellewith2l's, at empath,evolutioncom, and we'll set up
a time.
Gary Pageau (34:32):
Great Michelle.
It's been great talking to you.
I've learned a lot, and I hopeI think other people have too.
So thank you so much and lookforward to connecting with you
in the future.
Michelle Howe (34:40):
That sounds great .
Thank you, Gary
Erin Manning (34:42):
Thank you, Garrett .
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau.
Today we're joined by MichelleJ Howe, who is with the Empath
Evolution, and she's coming tous from Syracuse, New York.
Hi, Michelle, how are you today?
Michelle Howe (00:32):
Awesome, Gary, how are you?
Gary Pageau (00:33):
I'm doing great.
Before we get into, you knowyour business as a mentor and a
person who helps other people.
Where did you get your start?
Michelle Howe (00:42):
I started.
I was born on March 25th 1968.
Gary Pageau (00:47):
No, I mean in the business world.
How did you get in the businessworld?
Michelle Howe (00:50):
Well, you know, when I was young, my mom and dad
they my mom especially, she wasreally she took care of all the
finances.
We had rental properties and Itake care of the books and
everything I really like.
Well, this is so interesting.
So I went to school foraccounting because I was really
good at math, really good atsolving puzzles, I was really
(01:11):
good at seeing how everythingfit together and it came easy to
me.
I've always been like curious,introspective, analytical, but
went into accounting and Iactually tried to take a
psychology course.
Okay, I'm like, you know,because I just loved analyzing
people and I took this courseand I'm like this is such bs.
(01:33):
I'm like this is not the waythat people are and I'm like I
cannot take this course, thismakes no sense.
So, of course, I graduated withaccounting and computers.
I went, I became a CPA.
I did consulting and didbusiness plan advising.
I worked with entrepreneurs.
My intuition, the way I wasmoving through life, I had some
(02:08):
unusual things come my way.
You know, like anybody else,when you get hit by a two, by
four, or when your life takes a90 degree turn and you're not
sure why it turned.
You didn't turn it Like I justdove really deep into the
personal development area tofigure myself out.
Okay.
(02:29):
This was when I was almost about.
I was about 40 years old.
You know everybody's got theirown little story or big story.
Something goes awry right.
For me it was.
I don't understand whysomething is coming to my life,
why I'm confused by this.
I don't understand.
I could wreck my life really.
(02:50):
Why am I making the decisionsthat I'm making?
I started to question myself,and before then everything was
pretty.
I'm doing this and I'm doingthat.
This is how this goes.
Life made sense to me.
Right.
This specific example.
My behavior was, my choicesdidn't quite make sense and I
(03:11):
noticed that I was makingexcuses.
I thought I was smarter, Ithought I had it all figured out
, and you don't have it allfigured out.
Gary Pageau (03:21):
The older you get, the less you have it all figured
out.
I find out.
Michelle Howe (03:25):
Well, you know, when you find out that you
really don't have it all figuredout.
The older you get, the less youhave it all figured out.
I find out.
Well, you know, when you findout that you really don't maybe
know everything, or maybe it wasa book you didn't read.
You know, you were the smartestperson in the room and then all
of a sudden, gosh, what is thisabout?
I didn't know this was evenpossible to that end.
I went through like a hugeshift.
I was depressed, searching,looking, put myself into therapy
(03:50):
.
You tell me what is wrong.
You know why.
Why did this thing come into mylife and what does this mean?
I'd like to think that I knewwhat I was doing.
Gary Pageau (03:59):
I mean honestly, if you go back to your, you know
interested in numbers and andaccounting and things like that,
that's putting things in theright place, right.
Michelle Howe (04:06):
That's really what it's about it's about
making sense of the world aroundme, right?
exactly this goes here andbecause of that and I didn't
have an answer for it.
So, um, I went into therapy andafter six months I looked at
the lady.
I go listen, whatever you'reselling, whatever you're
thinking, this doesn't make anysense from my experience.
This isn't helping, and Iactually, I actually went to a
(04:33):
psychic fair and I went aroundand I looked around.
I'm like one of these women isgoing to help me and I'm going
to know who it is, and I did.
I found someone.
I had a reading.
She was really seasoned mediumand she told me this story.
That just blew me away and I'mlike what?
It wasn't just, she told me astory.
(04:54):
I could feel that what she wassaying, right, felt emotionally
like completely, yeah, shecompletely gets it.
This story, this synopsis ofwhat she's explaining to me,
makes perfect sense from myexperience.
I started devouring a littlebit of what was outside of the
(05:15):
norm way of looking at life and,mind you, I've always been that
deep person, I've always lookedat things more and it just kind
of got back to my roots.
Yes, I do believe in intuition.
Yes, I do believe in things aremeant to be.
Yes, I do believe there's anattraction for certain.
Well, yes, I do believe I canfeel like I would be able.
(05:38):
Whenever I would meet and myhusband always said there was
must be something wrong with meI'd go to conferences or
seminars or wherever, and Iwould have people sharing their
most deepest, painful momentswith me.
Right.
And I felt so like oh well,that's fine, you know I'm
honored, it's fine I'm listeningto them, but that that was
(06:01):
actually a thing Right.
Gary Pageau (06:04):
It was a thing that happened.
Michelle Howe (06:05):
A thing that sort of didn't happen to everybody.
Right.
But it was happening to me, ithad always happened to me.
But now I really got joltedfrom this last experience enough
that I'm going to pay attentionto what this is.
Sure, because I'm smarter thanwhat this is Like I can
technically.
I'm going to pay attention towhat this is because I'm smarter
(06:25):
than what this is Like I cantechnically.
I'm very intuitive, I can readpeople very well.
I'm like how could somethingget the best of me?
So here's that, like I don'twant to say ego, but confidence
in that.
No, tell me what this is.
So what I found out was that Ihad always been very empathic.
(06:46):
What that means is not justthat you can feel other people,
you understand them, but peopleyou can uplift another person
just by sharing space with them,shift the way that you're.
You know, here's this paincoming out, and by talking to me
they leave feeling better.
(07:07):
Sure.
I never realized that I wasimpacted.
I just was listening.
Right.
But all my life I would get.
I had like emotional rollercoasters at different points.
I'm like, why am I so emotional?
I'm like I am freaking moodysometimes, right, why the heck
am I moody?
And I'm like, why am I soemotional?
(07:27):
I'm like I am freaking moodysometimes, right, am I moody.
And I'm like I could neverlogically put that together.
I'm like, well, I don't know,it must be just being a woman.
I go through my cycles and thisis what it is.
I'm moody.
But what I found out was thatactually, some of us are so
empathic that we not only canunderstand another person, we
(07:48):
can lighten the load that otherpeople carry.
We make people feel better.
A lot of times we go into, webecome social workers,
psychologists, right.
But when I started lookingaround, I'm like, oh my God, I
didn't know this was a thing,right.
And when I look around, I see alot of people that are empathic,
(08:08):
and then I see them depressed,and then I see them drinking a
lot, and then I like I'm tuninginto all these people.
I'm like they don't realizethat they're exchanging energy
with other people, right, andthat exchange can impact them in
a negative way, depending onhow they're engaging, how much
(08:29):
they care, how much do theyempathize.
So that's where I learned aboutenergetic boundaries, not just
regular boundaries Right, andyou can really feel another
person.
It's like you open, they havean access to you and you have
access to them.
It can be very intimate, it canbe very intrusive, it can be
(08:50):
very damaging.
You can walk away feelingexhausted, fatigued, like think
about it in a business settingRight, the guy comes in the room
for a meeting and he's ajackass.
Everybody knows he's a jackass.
Right.
The energy of the room for ameeting and he's a jackass.
Everybody knows he's a jackass.
Right, the energy of the roomcompletely drops.
(09:15):
Right, nobody's saying a word,nobody dares to say a word,
right, right.
So it's think of it, as youhave stories out there
narcissist, empath.
Right, the narcissist justwants this, everything they want
.
Right, they're taking and theempath is giving.
And I'm like, wow, that doesn'treally paint empaths in a good
light.
There's a codependence going onthere.
But if you talk to people thatare very empathic, they're very
(09:35):
caring, they want to help otherpeople.
They need the best in the otherperson, then you know, of course
you get the one that's a littlebit more savvy in the other
person.
Then you know, of course youget the one that's a little bit
more savvy.
No, I'm not dealing with thisnegativity Right.
This isn't happening.
But a lot of times, like I'vemet some of my very good friends
(09:55):
that started and they've beenclients.
Michelle, I went through thisdrinking thing.
I just couldn't do.
I didn't know what to do.
I was overwhelmed.
There's too much I don't wantto say.
They don't even describe it asnoise.
They just I just need a beer.
I just I just need somethingbecause my head's spinning.
And actually a lot ofsalespeople are naturally quite
(10:18):
empathic.
So that's what makes someone avery good salesperson and gain
that level of trust.
But then you know you findpeople that know how this
intuitive connection to anotherperson and they use it to
benefit themselves.
They use it in a negative way.
So, technically.
(10:39):
No, you're not empathic, you'rejust using that empathy.
You're not empathic, you'rejust using that empathy.
And what happens when you usethat empathy and you're using it
to manipulate or to gainadvantage or to really find the
weak spots in another person andexploit them?
Right.
Right, that would be labeled anarcissist, if we were talking
about labels, right.
Right.
Yeah, right.
(11:00):
So at the end of the day, Ilooked at everything and I was
doing my accounting, myentrepreneurial training, and I
was meeting different people andI'm like, well, I understood
them because I understood thevision of what they were trying
to create and I'm very creativemyself and I'm like I can help
you with your business and thishelps, but I'm like I'm more
(11:20):
interested in the person that'sin front of me rather than your
business.
Gary Pageau (11:27):
People are your business right.
Michelle Howe (11:29):
People are.
I mean, I see people as we'rehere to grow, we're here to
learn, we're here.
Oftentimes we go along withwhat's in front of us, we're
making the things.
Oftentimes we're a littleunaware, unconscious to our own
emotions, what we truly feel,because we're always looking out
(11:50):
at the world.
We're looking out for love,we're looking out for success,
we're looking out for what am Idoing next?
What's happening?
Very few of us spend the timeto look or even notice that what
we have inside is really whatmakes us happy or unhappy.
(12:11):
Right, we're always looking tofeed something from the outside,
whereas I look at it as anunfolding that some of us are
here to really do amazing things.
And the sky's the limit, andyour childhood was or wasn't,
doesn't need to continue tocarry on.
What you create in your life,whether you are wounded,
(12:34):
traumatized, um labeled, youfeel misunderstood.
Right the answer is empowermentthe answer is empowerment.
The answer is to get a lot morecomfortable with the unseen, the
intuitive, the balance of male,masculine and feminine, the
logic in the, in the feeling,right.
(12:58):
You know, the most importantthing in life is how you feel.
Most of us will find differentthings to patch up so we feel
good, we're distracted, whetherit's an addiction, whether it's
exercise, whether it's a hobby,we are finding things to help us
be happy.
Nothing wrong with that, it'sgood.
(13:20):
But what if we are just notfeeling great inside and not
knowing we continue to do thesame thing and we are not
getting out of this negativecycle, like we're not listening
to ourselves, we're notlistening to how we feel, we're
not prioritizing how we feel thething is well, I need to do
(13:41):
this, it's gotta be that, likeokay, before you know, know it,
your life is completely takinglike your attitude, mental
attitude, mental approach,energy level.
Life doesn't look so great whenyou're not following something
that's empowering you, that'suplifting you, like you're just
(14:01):
doing what you need to do, right, right.
And so many people follow thatformula.
So right now, through empathevolution, I set it up, I'm like
I'm talking to empaths and thenI'm like hold on.
Most of the people don't evenknow their empaths.
And even if they knew theirempaths, so what right right,
want people to understand thatfeeling emotions, all of that we
(14:25):
distract ourselves from, ispart of who we are, all of the
things that we hide aboutourselves, oh, I don't like.
You know, we put on a mask,right?
well I don't want people to knowI'm I'm this way or that way.
They might not.
You know I'm a horrible person,I'm a negative person, like I
have to put on this show, rightright, but at the end of the day
(14:47):
, this person's very insecure.
I'm like no, we're all here tolearn.
We're all here to grow.
We're here to evolve.
So I'm an evolutionary guidebecause we're here evolving into
the next version of ourselvesevery single day.
Gary Pageau (15:02):
So I have a couple of questions here because I kind
of want to kind of steer thistowards the business world,
right, because obviously thebusiness world is made up of
people.
Yes, and you know what I'vediscovered with talking to my
people in my audience like youknow, they're always trying to
balance their workforce.
Now, today's workforce is alittle more challenging because
(15:23):
it is so harder to find goodpeople and all the other stuff.
Challenging because it is soharder to find good people and
all the other stuff, but youknow.
So what percentage of you knowthe workforce do you think is
what you would call an empath?
Now, I'm sure everyone has thatto some ability.
You know where they're there,they can they feel that, but you
know where it's sort of liketheir thing.
Is it five, you know?
Michelle Howe (15:46):
I would say a good 25% of the workforce is
quite empathic.
Gary Pageau (15:51):
Okay, cause, cause, cause.
I mean there certainly arepeople who are like the other
way, that all they want to worryabout anything.
Right, and they're you know, andthey just you know they want to
do the process and they want towork with technology and not
deal with people, and they'reactually more comfortable
dealing with technology orpeople, right?
So I get that.
So now you said, empathicpeople are more attuned to like,
(16:15):
maybe sales functions or thingslike that.
How do you like, when you'reinterviewing people for jobs or
things, how do you like findthose people out?
Interviewing people for jobs orthings, how do you like find
those people out?
Because I think, especially inthe photo industry, you get
people who are maybe interestedin photography or technology,
but they're not greatsalespeople, right?
(16:36):
So can you talk a little bitabout how you kind of pinpoint,
in a business you know, acandidate who is more empathic,
who actually may excel at sales?
Michelle Howe (16:51):
Okay, know, a candidate who is more empathic,
who actually may excel at sales.
Okay, well, an empathic personthat excels in sales.
If I was interviewing, I wastalking to someone I would like
to see where they are flexible,where they're open, where
they're curious, they arelooking at a win-win with
another person.
That is a person that's leaningin, that wants to do good, and
(17:16):
the world is not just.
You know, yes, we need a salehere, right, but what am I
selling First off?
First off, am I going to sellsomething that I believe in?
This person is not just sellingto sell.
This person is selling becausethey believe in something.
Gary Pageau (17:31):
Right, okay, so there's.
Michelle Howe (17:33):
So there's a motivation there beyond just the
financial it's not the almightydollar that's the determinant,
although it's a factor right,they've got a broader purpose in
how they step forward.
They show a curiosity.
Gary Pageau (17:48):
They show a how do you find out someone, shows a
caring yeah, I was gonna say, Imean that's where I'm getting,
at all right.
I mean you've got yeah, you'vegot the person that got there.
You know is your meeting in aroom and you're, maybe you're
meeting in a coffee shop for thefirst time to do an interview
or something.
You know what are.
You know because clearlythere's things you can and can't
ask in an interview.
I'm pretty, you know, I want tokeep this all legal and all
(18:10):
that other stuff.
So so you know there's certainthings with you know certain
questions you can't ask orshouldn't ask, or better not ask
.
Michelle Howe (18:17):
Looking at what I would do, which would be what I
would do.
I would ask leading questions.
As you know, what is a learningexperience that took you by
surprise?
What was an experience that youthought could have worked
better, like you know?
Can you give me some solutionsto these things that might?
(18:39):
How would you solve thisproblem happening in a group?
What will be your go-to?
So you're really trying to makea determination over does this
person think outside the box atall?
What is this person looking at?
How do you denote a good fit?
What is a good fit for youAsking leading questions?
Where there's not one answer,it's how are they answering it?
(19:01):
And then?
So?
This is why empathic leadersare needed more than ever,
because when someone answers aquestion, you're not just taking
what they say.
You're listening to what theyfeel like.
You're listening to the tone,you're listening to the words
they choose.
You're watching them to seewhere they look.
When they look, it's likeyou're reading the person.
Gary Pageau (19:26):
They're looking at their watch while they're
talking to you, the person.
Michelle Howe (19:30):
How conscientious are they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How uplifted are they?
And I can't say exactly from anHR perspective what is most
appropriate Right.
A lot of HR people are veryempathic.
You need to be able to dealwith lots of different
personalities.
Yeah, yeah.
Then an empathic person canshift, depending on who they're
talking to, very quickly rightwhen people get in trouble is
(19:52):
when they are so empathic thatthey care.
Gary Pageau (19:58):
And they care too much, maybe for the workplace,
maybe that might be a little.
Michelle Howe (20:03):
And they care too much.
Or the problem is when you takethings on and you don't know
that you've taken them on andthey exhaust you right and it's
really about.
Oh yes, on one hand, I wouldlike people to be more empathic,
because there's such a skillthat comes it's a blessing, but
on the other hand, if you'revery empathic, you best beware,
(20:24):
because we're going to exhaustyou well, yeah, you're gonna,
you're to need that mentalhealth day, right.
Yes, you need to manage how youconnect with another person
because everybody is completelydifferent and I'll give you an
example.
So I have a curiosity.
That's number one.
I was doing some entrepreneurialcoaching with a man and he was
(20:46):
pretty amazing, like nicelooking guy.
He turned every woman's headthat came into that place.
You know, the first time in mylife I ever noticed that, oh my
God, I think they're actuallylike treating him like he's a
piece of meat.
Honest to God, I was like andso I started helping him with
his business and I was curiousabout him and he showed me all
(21:11):
this wonderful side.
But I took a deeperienced atthe point to see I learned a
huge lesson from this manbecause I got a little too like.
(21:32):
He loved talking to me, heloved coming to have and I'm
like, well, that's fine, youknow, I found him fascinating.
But then this very negative, Iwould say abusive I get my way
kind of man, Right.
One point I think he called, Igot a phone call and I think it
(21:53):
was him, but I wasn't sure and Iwas home, Right, I'm like I'm
not picking up the phone.
Right.
Time he saw me.
No joke, he completely like youknow you take your words and
you can yell at someone or youcan even whisper at someone, but
depending on that intensity ofhow you aim those words at
(22:13):
another person right I felt hiswords come right through me and
like bang, it was like if he hadlike a gun, I would have gotten
shot.
It would have been that's.
Gary Pageau (22:26):
Because you didn't pick up the phone.
Michelle Howe (22:28):
Because I didn't pick up the phone.
Gary Pageau (22:30):
Hmm, hmm.
Michelle Howe (22:31):
What does that sound like?
That sounds like the abusiveyou know Right Relationship,
that, the dynamics that canhappen.
But my point is I didn't see it.
I had never engaged withsomething like usually.
Sure.
But I didn't see it.
And these dynamics areeverywhere.
And if you don't have thatcertain amount of knowledge of
(22:54):
yourself, Sure.
And how far into another personyou go.
So when you're curious, you doa deep dive, like every one of
us I don't know if your audiencewill we all bring our energy
forward and it's our right, butit's our energy right.
Walk in the room, certainpeople you know, immediate here,
(23:14):
they are right before they evensay a word.
Here they are, there's theirpresence right there.
So, as managers, as businesspeople, you're responsible for
how you show up, how you feel.
Feeling radiates out to otherpeople, sure?
So what do you want in yourbusiness?
You want some radiatingtoxicity or do you want, um, you
(23:40):
know, enthusiasm and innovation.
Gary Pageau (23:42):
yeah, I like that Radiating toxicity.
Michelle Howe (23:47):
Because those people exist.
Gary Pageau (23:50):
Oh, absolutely.
And I guess my question thereis let's say, for example, you
take over a department in yourcorporate, you know, let's say,
for example, you're running thebinding department and you've
got, then you have that personwho radiates toxicity.
What can you do about that?
Because you're not talkingabout probably a trait that can
(24:11):
be eradicated, if you will,without a great deal of therapy,
which you're not there to do.
It's a job.
Michelle Howe (24:17):
Yeah, what I would say to that is, if the
companies and the businesses inthis world and the leaders of
this world recognize that thiswas a lose-lose situation, right
, you cannot have those playersthere.
And if you make it a conditionof employment of we have these
(24:38):
values, our values are this andwe expect our people my husband
works in corporate with a lot ofpeople, right, and I understand
the dilemma of the leaders andwho's babysitting, who, right,
who's taking care of what?
Each person needs to be heldresponsible for what they bring
(25:02):
to the table every day.
And then some training thatwould.
That would help them see amirror in front of them.
What's your behavior like?
What is the, what's thedownfall of this, of this
behavior?
Yeah, for you, but foreverybody around us right.
How do we make them take acloser look into who they are?
And you do that by leading byexample.
(25:24):
We leaders take a closer lookat how we show up, how we
measure up in our approach inour language, our communication,
our attitude.
You know the mental space.
There should be a standard forthat.
There's some points for that.
This is how you show up, andyou're showing up at a 10, 9 out
(25:47):
of 10 days, right?
Oh no, you're showing up at a 3at best every day.
Can we help our people, whichare the most important resource
in a company?
Step it up to a 7 or 8?
Gary Pageau (26:00):
Right?
Well, you know I mean what Iwas getting to is I think
there's this sort of things thathappens within companies and
your husband, since he works atCorporate America, probably sees
it a lot more yeah when youhave people who are like, hey,
they're good at their job.
Let's say, for example, they'regood at operating a piece of
machinery and now we're going tomake that person head of the
department.
Well, they may not even be avery good person, the right
(26:24):
leader for that department, butbecause they've kind of reached
a certain point in the businesswhere we got to do something
with this person, becausethey've been here for 10 years
and they're looking to getpromoted, but you may be putting
somebody in a position who'sill-suited to deal with people.
Michelle Howe (26:38):
Yeah, right.
Right, so I mean it's like.
This is a huge topic actually,because you're trying to in any
business, you're trying to findthe right person for the right
role and you're going to call itempathy or social um, social
intelligence social intelligence, emotional intelligence, all of
(27:09):
these things, all of thosethings are key elements, right,
just because and not everybodyis good at that right, exactly,
at a certain level, everybodyshould be working to attain at
least a five or six well, that'swhat I'm saying.
Gary Pageau (27:22):
I mean, you may be able to take a three to a five,
but they're never going to getto a nine.
Michelle Howe (27:26):
No, no, they're not made for that.
So then you just have to takepeople for where they're at.
But if the language is a littlebit like, I think, too easily
we, I think it's actually evenmisunderstood.
What does it mean to beemotionally intelligent?
What does it mean to beempathic?
Gary Pageau (27:44):
Right, Well, in the business world it's like you
know.
Hey, that's a little too touchyfeet, that even mean you know.
Michelle Howe (27:51):
Yeah, how do I even?
But if you really look at themost successful leaders, they
carry that right.
They're able to connect, theydo care and anything.
If you're not empathic, are younarcissistic and how does that
impact people?
Right, what does every personneed to understand?
How they're engaging, how theyshow up.
(28:11):
Does that work?
You don't have to be a high-endempathic person.
You just have to be a personthat respects the space around
you.
Gary Pageau (28:21):
Right?
Or if you're a person who isnot empathetic, but you have
someone to report to you is justunderstand the situations you
may be putting into them may beoverwhelming them or emotionally
exhausting them, right?
How do you?
Michelle Howe (28:34):
that's a good point too.
How do you manage somebody whois more empathic and more
impacted by oh, you're yellingat me or I can't say anything in
this meeting because, like,they need to be boosted up, they
need to learn skills to shiftup or they leave, is what
happens.
Yeah, this is not my, you know,this is not my rodeo show.
(28:54):
I'm not going to stay here.
You people are toxic to me,right, which is not what we want
.
We want a win-win across theboard.
Gary Pageau (29:02):
Well, that's it, that's what I'm saying.
I mean that person who you knowthe department head may find
tiresome because they areempathic, may be one of the best
people on the team because theywork well with others.
Michelle Howe (29:13):
Right, so are there tools or programs or
anything out there thatemployers can look at for this
kind of thing?
I don't think directly.
Okay, and there are people outthere teaching about wellness
and teaching some empathy, butit's not enough and it's still
(29:36):
seen as a weakness.
Gary Pageau (29:37):
Yeah, that's.
That's kind of my point is thatit's you know the weakness, you
know what I mean, cause there'slike the, you know the various
emotional tests you can take.
You know the NTJ or whatever.
It is kind of testing.
But you know I'm not surethey're they're doing the right
function for that.
Michelle Howe (29:52):
They're categorizing what people are.
So the NTJ, all that stuff, iscategorizing you, but I'm
talking about something thathelps people become more
centered in who they are, moreconfident, more clear, more
communicative instead of hiding.
Step forward.
This is what stepping forwardinstead of being confused if
(30:15):
you're not good enough, stepforward.
So it's personal development.
But that personal developmentchanges.
How they show up at workchanges everything.
So if we can inject some ofthat development soft skill in a
person to say hey, which areas,what emotions, how is your
(30:36):
mental going, are you afraid?
You know what?
Almost like assessing them on aset of emotional balance type
assessment.
How are they doing?
How are you doing?
Sure, almost like assessingthem on a set of emotional
balance type assessment?
How are they doing?
How are you doing Sure, andthen providing some resources,
(30:58):
that some training, that is justoverall high level to help them
get a little clearer onsolutions might be for them and
then people can go deeper intoit, because so many people, I
mean our formative years are oneto nine, one to seven, right,
many people come into this worldand they're raised by parents
who only knew what they knew.
Right.
(31:19):
Love maybe, but there's alsotrauma maybe.
So how do we level out?
Because every person I know ishealing, shifting, releasing
things, dealing with emotionsthat they may not even know are
playing out in the background,but their attitudes can be sharp
and be not happy people.
Either they hide it or theydon't hide it.
(31:42):
Either way is not a good thing.
You know we have to go intopsychotherapy for this, and is
that a solution or is itsomething that?
Let me help you understand thisat a root level.
Right.
As this is a skill and aknowledge and you know when you
see somebody acting out in theworkplace, when you see someone
miserable out in the workplace.
When you see someone miserable,there's underlying reasons why
(32:04):
that exists.
Right.
So, if you can come in, notspecifically directing it at any
one person- but, speak to thetopic in general and speak to it
as an important ingredient ofsuccess.
It's inner success.
So many people that I meet canaccomplish all kinds of outer
(32:26):
success.
Right.
But when you really get into theprivate world that they live in
, they are not happy.
Gary Pageau (32:34):
Well, and do you think it's because they're
trying to look for happiness intheir work?
Michelle Howe (32:38):
Maybe work becomes a distraction.
They become good at makingmoney.
They become good at thissuccess formula that they've
bought into.
So instead of well, this ispainful, over here I'm just
going to do all the things I dogood at.
So people love me.
Or I feel powerful because, orI feel like I'm a success,
because look at my success, it'sself-evident, it's right.
(33:00):
Here I'm going to focus myattention on all my success and
forget about what I'm gamblingon a side away, forget about
what I'm drinking away, forgetabout the fact that I'm lonely
and people leave me right.
Those are, you know, all partof healthy, healthy living.
(33:21):
Healthy happiness.
You can buy, you can try to gobuy it, but there's plenty of
poor people that are happy.
Gary Pageau (33:29):
Right, well, money can't buy happiness.
That's what they say, right.
Michelle Howe (33:32):
That is true, very true.
Gary Pageau (33:34):
So where can people go to get more information
about the things you do?
Michelle Howe (33:41):
They can go to my website.
Gary Pageau (33:42):
It's empath evolutioncom and you've got a
lot of cool resources there.
This is what I'm looking at.
Michelle Howe (33:50):
It's pretty awesome thank you, I do, I do.
There's a quiz on the page, notthat it's not the end dollar or
the be all right, are you anempath?
And then there is, you cansubscribe and you'll get some
free things.
I send out free content andkeep people informed.
I do um a master, like I have asignature program that I move
(34:11):
people through if they'reinterested in a community.
That comes with that, so youknow.
But that's after an initialconversation and initial
understanding of what you havegoing on.
And if you really want to talkto me immediately, just email me
at michellewith2l's, at empath,evolutioncom, and we'll set up
a time.
Gary Pageau (34:32):
Great Michelle.
It's been great talking to you.
I've learned a lot, and I hopeI think other people have too.
So thank you so much and lookforward to connecting with you
in the future.
Michelle Howe (34:40):
That sounds great .
Thank you, Gary
Erin Manning (34:42):
Thank you, Garrett .
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