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One unexpected phone call changed Jerry Grossman's career path forever, moving him from advertising Charmin toilet paper to promoting Nikon cameras—a shift that would place him at ground zero of photography's most transformative era.
The International Photographic Council (IPC) will host its annual IPC Hall of Fame and Professional Photographer Achievement Awards Luncheon on May 14, 2025. The IPC Service Award honoree, Jerry Grossman is co-owner and Editor-in-Chief of Digital Imaging Reporter.
In this nostalgic yet insightful conversation, Grossman takes us through his remarkable journey from Nikon's communications manager to co-founder of Digital Imaging Reporter, sharing firsthand experiences of seismic industry shifts. Remember when digital images were dismissed as inferior to film? Or when increasing from 2 to 3 megapixels was revolutionary? Grossman was there, watching skepticism transform into acceptance as technology rapidly evolved.
The digital revolution brought extraordinary challenges. Camera companies simultaneously sold film cameras while developing digital alternatives, all while the internet emerged as a mysterious new frontier. Grossman recalls being suddenly appointed "Vice President of Internet Development" with the mandate to create Nikon's first website, when most people couldn't even define what a website was.
Perhaps most fascinating is Grossman's perspective on today's photography landscape. After smartphones decimated the point-and-shoot market, he's witnessing Gen Z ironically returning to these cameras because "iPhone pictures are too perfect." This quest for authenticity also drives film's resurgence, highlighting how creativity remains the industry's beating heart despite technological disruption.
Beyond the technology, Grossman's stories reveal the deep personal connections formed across competing companies. Through industry asso
Mediaclip strives to continuously enhance the user experience while dramatically increasing revenue.
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Ann
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau.
Today, we're joined by oh mygosh Jerry Grossman, co-founder
and editor-in-chief of DigitalImaging.
Reporter Jerry and I have knowneach other since like day one
of the-.
Jerry Grossman (00:34):
A hundred years, I think.
Gary Pageau (00:36):
A hundred years, yes, since the dawn of
photography, glass plates andall that.
No, I'm just joking.
But no, Jerry and I have goneback many years.
We want to talk a little bitabout kind of how the industry
has changed over the years.
He's been working formanufacturers, he's been on the
publication side and now he's inhigher education actually, and
(00:56):
he's going to be getting theInternational Photographic
Council Distinguished ServiceAward next month and I can talk
a little bit about that.
But, J erry, how are you doing?
Jerry Grossman (01:07):
I'm doing great, Gary, how are you doing?
Gary Pageau (01:09):
Always fun to talk to you Fabulous, fabulous, and
it's always good to see oldfriends.
It seems like there's fewer andfewer places to see old friends
these days, with kind of theshow thing going away and
publications going away andthings like that.
So I knew, I remember you and Imet back in Nikon days when you
were at Nikon.
How did you get started atNikon?
How did you start your careerin the industry?
Jerry Grossman (01:31):
It's a funny story.
I think it's funny anyway.
I was in the advertisingbusiness early on working on
Stanley Tools and CrestToothpaste and all that.
So I'm working on a Charmintoilet paper account and I get a
call from headhunter and Ididn't even know the phone rings
.
I pick it up.
There's an opening on the Nikoncamera Scalli McCabe Sloves,
(01:51):
which was a great ad agency.
I literally never met this guy,but it sounded like an amazing
thing.
So I'm thinking about it.
I'm going well, please don'tsqueeze a Charmin.
We take the world's greatestpictures.
What sounds better?
And I think we take the world'sgreatest pictures sounds a lot
better.
So I ended up going on theinterview.
I got the job.
It was for, I think, accountsupervisor on an Nikon account,
(02:15):
and that's literally how Istarted my career in the
industry, and I always tellpeople, including my students, I
said you never know when thephone rings who's going to be on
the other end and how it'sgoing to affect your life.
If I was in the bathroom whenthat phone rang, I might have
never been in this industry,
Gary Pageau (02:29):
is it like testing the Charmin product, for
example.
Jerry Grossman (02:33):
For example.
Yes, that's a perfect example.
That's how it started and I wason the Nikon account for about
a year and a half or so and thenthe person who had the general
manager of communications job atNikon was leaving Steve Jarman.
I don't know if you rememberSteve years ago still a very
good friend, and he recommendedme for his spot.
(02:54):
So then they hired me overthere and then that was sort of
the beginning of my career inthe photo industry.
Gary Pageau (03:00):
So did you have any interest in photography
other than being a snapshooterback then?
Did you have any background atphotography other than being a
snapshooter?
Back then did you have anybackground at all you know what?
Jerry Grossman (03:07):
not, not really.
I was.
You know I was.
I guess you can call me a photoenthusiast, but I I really
wasn't.
I think I had an slr.
You know, I, I was just I.
I was very, you know, I wasalways on the creative side.
So I took a lot of pictures.
But there was something abouthearing nikon and then I ran out
, bought a copy of popularphotography magazine so this
amazing spread for the NAA, ifyou remember that shot by
(03:29):
Michael O'Neill and I said youknow what?
This is what I want to do.
This is so creative and therewas such a, it was such a cool
brand and that I couldn't resist.
So I took the job and I stayedon the business side, but I
learned so much aboutphotography, obviously by just
being around it.
It changed my life in a verypositive way.
Gary Pageau (03:49):
And you really you know, back then it was
obviously film and it was and itwas a.
It was a different world becauseyou really had the, the SLR,
not DSLR, just SLR.
Thirty five millimeter wasreally the epitome of
photography back then.
So there was a huge amount ofinterest in an.
Autofocus was coming in prettystrong.
(04:11):
It was kind of changing thegame because different
manufacturers had differentstrategies of where they were
going to put their autofocus andyou know that changed things up
.
It was kind of controversialback then.
You know whether you put it inthe lens or you put it in the
body or wherever, you know thatkind of thing.
Jerry Grossman (04:25):
Exactly.
Gary Pageau (04:25):
What was that like in that Cause?
That was a pretty vibrant area,kind of high tech even.
Jerry Grossman (04:31):
It was crazy.
Cause?
Cause a, there was no digitaland B, by the way, there was no
internet Right, Everything waschanging.
Autofocus was a huge deal,exposure control was a huge deal
.
There was a real fight betweenNikon and Canon, obviously,
which I think continues today.
It was an exciting time.
Digital was just coming around.
(04:51):
That was like in the I guess,the mid to late 90s, and I
remember sitting in meetingswhen it first started where we'd
see these digital images and myold friend, richard Lepinto,
who I'm sure you hear him aswell, would say, yeah, it's
digital, but it'll never be thesame thing as film.
Gary Pageau (05:08):
Well, everyone thought that, right yeah.
Jerry Grossman (05:11):
And then, like six months later, it was like,
oh, these images are pretty good, but it'll never be film, but
it's pretty good.
And then there was this arcright.
And then it was like about thesame.
And then just digital keptgetting better and better and
better.
It was a crazy time because wewere selling film cameras.
Obviously we were sellingdigital cameras.
We were trying to get into that.
(05:31):
We were selling point-and-shootdigital cameras.
We were watching technologychange in front of our eyes.
It was exhilarating.
Gary Pageau (05:37):
And then one of the things that was interesting
was Nikon, back then actually,when it came to compact cameras
and early digital, were prettyinnovative.
I mean, they were trying, youknow, rotating lenses and all
kinds of interesting designs,you know, which were very
different from what the othercompact companies were doing.
What was that like?
(05:58):
I mean, because obviouslyyou're getting this stuff from
Japan, you know, what was thedesign ideas like back then?
What was driving that?
Jerry Grossman (06:05):
If you remember, and I'm sure you do, um, it
started to be all about themegapixels at first, right,
right yeah, yeah we had our coolpics cameras and and everyone
was sort of competing on on thatside of it right it was, who
can make the better point andshoot.
And we had a uh, I forget whatit was called the coolpix,
something that um had a pen youcould draw on.
It was really early on.
I forget the name of it.
It was called the Coolpix,something that had a pen you
could draw on.
It was really early on.
I forget the name of it.
(06:26):
It was the Megapixel Wars.
Right, it was every year.
It was like, well, now, twomegapixels, three megapixels.
There was also this fight, asI'm thinking about it, of do we
include the eight megabytecompact flash card in the camera
?
Right, because if we do, wehave to charge a little more.
If we don't, then when the kidsCoolPix their camera on
(06:49):
christmas day, they can't take apicture, right, so, like what,
what do we do?
So that was a fight that sortof, you know, evolved over into,
you know, let's not include itanymore.
I think once it reached like 60megabytes, it got too big or
something like that.
So it was, um, you know, allthat stuff was happening.
It was again anotherexhilarating time, because sales
(07:09):
were going crazy.
Oh yeah, right.
Every year, every company wasgetting bigger and bigger and
bigger and bigger.
Gary Pageau (07:15):
Oh yeah, Plus, you had, you know, all kinds of
brands that were getting, youknow, being introduced to the
market, or they were beingreinvigorated, where they just,
you know, digital cameracompanies were just popping up
out of nowhere.
Jerry Grossman (07:27):
Exactly, and the major brands were sort of
controlling the market in apretty good way.
But it was a crazy time and, bythe way, at the same time.
So I was the general manager ofcommunications and there was
this thing called the internetsort of starting to happen,
right.
And my boss came to me.
He said, Jerry, you are now thevice president of internet
(07:48):
development.
And I was like okay, what doesthat mean?
And he said you need to get awebsite up in about the next six
months.
I was like all right, what's awebsite?
Gary Pageau (07:55):
because no one knew what that was yeah, exactly
what's a website?
Jerry Grossman (07:58):
everyone wanted one, but no one.
No one knew what it was and ourchallenge, interestingly, was
Nikon was a consumer brand andalso a medical device brand.
We made microscopes andinstruments and for the first
time we were charged withcombining the brand into one
internet site because wecouldn't do one without the
other.
So from a branding standpointthat was sort of fun and
(08:21):
interesting and cool.
Gary Pageau (08:24):
And again, you're not using any of the modern
technology that we're all usedto right.
Everyone was inventing thatstuff as it was happening, right
?
So the whole idea of having youknow different pages for
different divisions and how thatwas going to look, and that
must have been almost anightmare.
Jerry Grossman (08:37):
Totally different, and also the people
that you were working with.
Whoever knew the coolest wordswere the people you thought were
the smartest people in the roomRight, Internet, this internet,
that.
But I have to tell you I spenta lot of time in San Francisco.
It was really, as I think aboutmy career looking back, it was
one of the most you know thecoolest time, because all this
(08:58):
technology was happening both onthe product side on the
Internet side, and no one knewwhat was coming next.
Yeah, and that was fantastic.
Gary Pageau (09:06):
You know it's funny because when you talk
about things like that, uh, youknow people today who didn't
grow up in that area.
Right, and you know therewasn't the belief necessarily
that film was going to getreplaced.
Right, because no one couldreally see the future and
certainly no one expected.
You know, smartphones andthings like it.
Maybe somebody did Right, butnot, you know, in the
(09:28):
photographic industry, which atthe time was considered pretty
high tech, right, and the beliefnever was.
You know, at first, you knowthat that people are going to
change their behavior asradically as they did.
I think that was.
I think the thing that thatsurprised most people was just
the volume of pictures justexploded that people were taking
(09:48):
.
Jerry Grossman (09:49):
Exactly.
Well, yeah, because you know,all of a sudden, when you took a
picture, you didn't take one,you took three or four or five,
because you weren't paying forfilm anymore.
Right, the photographicbehavior changed, right, Right,
people all of a sudden thought,well, you know, the other part
of it was well, I don't reallyneed an SLR anymore because I
got this sort of point and shootdigital camera that you know,
(10:09):
that's taking pretty goodpictures now.
Gary Pageau (10:21):
So that changed.
Jerry Grossman (10:22):
And then I think the most shocking and happened
years later.
If someone had said to you, youknow, kodak's going to go out
of business, you'd be like, no,they're not Right.
But they kind of missed theboat by sort of hanging on to
film for a long time becausethey had to.
There were so many thingshappening and, like you just
said before, the smartphone iscreeping up.
Oh, it's taking pretty goodpictures.
Yeah, but people are alwaysgoing to want cameras.
Yeah, but it's taking betterand better.
And I remember Gary being in aconference with you and you may
(10:44):
have even been on stage with me,I'm not sure and one of the
camera companies and maybe maybeit was Nokia said in five years
we're going to be able to take12 megapixel pictures on a phone
.
And we're like, no, you're not.
Who was that Right?
Right, that's never going tohappen.
Gary Pageau (11:04):
And you know, I've never seen ever right exactly
so well, and you know they'rejust assumptions that people
made back.
I mean, you mentioned kodak andI don't want to, you know, turn
this into a.
You know what went wrong withkodak, because I've done that
podcast a couple times and it'sgo back to those listener.
But you know the thing was ispeople really didn't?
You know the misconceptionthere was.
(11:24):
You know the thing was ispeople really didn't?
You know the misconceptionthere was.
You know Kodak was a chemicalscompany.
They were not a consumerelectronics company.
They were trying to leave frombeing a chemicals company to
being a consumer electronicscompany and that just the
margins were different.
It's a different business and Idon't think anyone expected
especially the folks at Kodakthat people weren't going to
print as much.
I really thought they kind ofthought well, people are still
(11:47):
going to want that physicalprint, they're going to print
more and no matter how I meanthey tried I don't know how many
different things to make iteasier to make the print
pictures right.
The kiosks became super easy.
They had buttons on the camera,one button print and it, just
it, just the demand wasn't there.
People, once they saw thepicture, didn't need to print
(12:08):
everything.
So the printing business haschanged a lot.
Jerry Grossman (12:10):
It's become more of a creative expression
instead of I need to have thatpicture
no, that's true, .
we were literally changingconsumers' behavior in
photography in so many differentways, right Going from film to
digital, going from point andshoot cameras, you know, to
smartphones, trying to keepDSLRs relevant at the same time
yeah, sure, you know, thetechnology just kept coming and
coming.
What's amazing about thisindustry is, you know all the
(12:33):
major manufacturers and you knowway, way many more companies
than that continue to push theenvelope on technology in so
many different ways, and to me,that always impressed me like
crazy.
That just that kept theindustry going.
When, if you think about it,when the point and shoot digital
market crashed it isn't likethe industry crashed.
The industry got a lot smaller.
(12:54):
You know sales, sales gotsmaller, but we you know the,
the industry and themanufacturers and the technology
just kept getting better andbetter.
Yeah, so well, I mean that is away of looking at it.
I mean, sure, the $100point-and-shoot market's kind of
gone because it's all in thephone, but you've got now.
You've got, you know, Fuji,Canon, Nikon, Leica, all these
(13:15):
people having these, really, youknow wonderful compact cameras.
It's not even getting amirrorless or DSLRs, but it just
sees compact range finder typecameras.
Or even Nikon just came outwith a super zoom that they're
addressing the market with.
You know, products that cost alot more but they can
demonstrate that they're worthit, right.
Here's what's interesting I'm teaching a class
(13:38):
of 20 year olds in publicrelations and I talk to them all
the time because I want to hearwhat's going on.
And there has been this trendlately of those kids Gen Zers,
if you will buying point andshoot digital cameras again and
wanting to use them.
And I asked my class what is itabout that?
They said this is great.
They said when you're using aniPhone, the pictures are too
(14:01):
good, they're too perfect.
Right?
I swear to god, it's like.
It's like we want.
We want to, you know, takepictures that aren't perfect,
that maybe show a different kindof mood.
Gary Pageau (14:11):
So maybe there's a little bit of a comeback there,
but I thought that was uh well,well, they want that
authenticity, right, and that'sand that's driving the whole
re-emergence of film that we'reseeing, right, that exactly
getting those imperfect picturesare slightly out of focus or,
you know, they're even likedistressing the necks and
they're you know, all thesepeople selling outdated film
because they want it to lookweird.
(14:31):
You know, and right, you know,and it's funny because I'm I'm
from the world where we tried toget away from all that it's
like you want to make thepicture on the film as perfect
as possible in the camera, getthe great exposure, get the
thing you want in focus and allthe other stuff, and now it's
like, well, we want it to be alittle imperfect.
Jerry Grossman (14:48):
Right, you really have to.
You know, as a marketing person, you really have to listen to
the new generation.
You can't just keep doing whatyou're doing.
You're doing it.
I think that's the perfectlesson of they're looking at
what we threw in the garbage,they're looking at film, they're
looking at point and shootcameras and they're saying you
know what, there's somethinggoing on here.
So you know what?
(15:09):
If it continues to drive theinterest in photography which I
think we haven't reallymentioned, but I think that
phones absolutely did that.
You know people that never tookpictures before, we're now
taking pictures every minute ofevery day.
Yeah, it's been a crazyindustry.
I mean, as we're talking andwhere we're living, it it's.
It's been a crazy.
You know, 25, 30 years.
Gary Pageau (15:30):
It really has, and really photography.
However, whatever yourdescription of that is right,
whether it's, you know,smartphones, mirrorless cameras,
action cameras you know wehaven't even talked about, you
know, all the some of the, allthe different kinds of cameras
there are now, right, it'sreally more popular than ever.
It's just we don't have thecamera.
Companies aren't really leadingthe charge in a lot of ways on
(15:54):
that, right, and so you knowit'll be interesting to see why,
or what happens, you know, canthey make a mirrorless camera,
you know, be more like a phone,like?
I've always been surprised why,for example, Canon or Nikon
doesn't come up with a camerabody that you can put a, you
know, a camera in it, right, soit basically is wireless to
(16:15):
transmit directly from thecamera and who knows, I mean I'm
sure there's probably atechnical reason why they can't
from the camera, and I'm whoknows, I mean I'm sure there's
probably a technical reason whythey can't, but it's just one of
those things where I think, youknow, there's a lot of
innovation happening, but it'snot just coming from the big
three or the big exactly, yeah,because it's, it's, they're
advanced digital technicalcompanies that can, that can
(16:38):
contribute all different kindsof thinking that maybe the
camera companies you know neverhad to do, obviously, now that
they're doing it more and more.
Jerry Grossman (16:47):
I mean, if you think about it, the engineers
and the camera companies arebrilliant, right, the things
that they did over the yearsjust inventing different
technologies.
I remember when Red EyeReduction was invented, my
friend Eran Steinberg, remember,Eran, yeah, great guy.
You know, he was kind of theguy that put that on the map
(17:08):
when, like, oh, wow, you take apicture and there's no red eye
anymore that was that was backin the 35 millimeter point
shooting.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
But but you know there's, likeI said, there's always been
technology like coming andcoming and coming and you know
I'm impressed and proud of allthose companies that didn't give
up and said, no, we're going tomake things better, right, and
(17:29):
they and they continue to do it.
Gary Pageau (17:31):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean honestly, if you look atsome of the bigger companies,
you know as cameras have becomelesser part of their business
Right, because you know Canon'sa copier company and nikon's a
medical instruments company andsony's an entertainment company,
right, and it's still in thebusiness and they're still
innovating.
Right, they're still doing someamazing things with the
products, beyond what you knowmost of us could recommend or
(17:54):
remember that you know, withterms of like, what you can
shoot with isos.
Now, I mean just I rememberwhen, like 800 iso was pushing
it right yeah, right, right nowthat's like a tiny number.
Jerry Grossman (18:04):
I know, right, all those companies, you know,
the cream always rises to thetop and and all those companies
have just, especially, uh, sonyhas been very impressive.
I mean, they kind of, you know,started mirrorless.
They said we're going to bemirrorless, we're going to do
mirrorless and, like you justsaid, they were an entertainment
company but decided to put, youknow, all their eggs and all
(18:25):
the camera eggs in that basketand it's paid off.
Gary Pageau (18:33):
It's really paid off for them.
Yeah, it's been very impressivemic on right and it was doing
wonderful things and then yousaid I want to take a risk and I
want to do something else.
So what was that like when youtook over uh, rudy and ed's
publication?
Jerry Grossman (18:51):
first you got to say who that is and what that
was and how that came aboutexactly, rudy mask and ed wagner
were, um, two guys in thepublishing industry that had
been there for a thousand years.
They owned PTN.
They had a lot of differentmagazines.
I was an icon.
There was a change inmanagement.
My dad had always said to me hehad his own business.
(19:12):
He said you have to have yourown business one day, because
that's really changed your life.
So all that's happening.
I call up Ed Wagner.
I'll never forget it.
I said Ed, he had sold PTN andstarted Photo Industry Reporter
in 1993 with Rudy and it wasn'ta good looking magazine but he
was out there trying to make abuck and all that.
So I called him up.
(19:34):
I said Ed, if you ever want tosell your magazine, let me know
because I might be interested.
He said, and I quoted.
I quoted, said jerry, I'm 85years old.
He goes, let's have lunch thisweek.
I said okay, so had lunch.
Um, I had, you know I.
I was pretty confident that Icould run a magazine from the
(19:54):
edit side.
I'd been the editor of nikonworld magazine when I was at
nikon, so I kind got it.
I needed a person to selladvertising and I had a friend
Allan Levine was working at GolfDigest at the time and I called
him.
I said, Al, I have this sort ofidea about buying this magazine
.
Let's talk about it.
(20:15):
He came over, he looked at themagazine and said what are you
kidding me?
I said, no, no, no, it was notpretty.
It was not pretty.
It was but.
And I said, but, we could dosomething here.
And he said, all right, let'sdo it.
We pulled our money.
We bought the magazine in 2005as Photo Industry Reporter.
We ended up changing it toDigital Imaging Reporter and I
think around 2009 to 2010.
(20:36):
And we turned it.
You know, Ed's magazine wasblack and white on crappy paper.
We turned it into a you knowkind of a good looking magazine.
Gary Pageau (20:44):
It was exciting.
Jerry Grossman (20:44):
And I have to tell you that the thing that
sort of I still think about isthe support.
You know, when I left Nikonafter 12 or 13 years, I was
always the Nikon guy.
But the support that I got fromthe whole industry, from my
(21:05):
former enemies, now friends atCanon and Sony and Pentax and
Ricoh, and all those guys sortof said you know what, we're
going to help this guy out andI'll never forget it.
I'm always grateful for it.
But it started kind of a newcareer of being in the
publishing business.
There weren't a lot of trademagazines left.
Gary Pageau (21:21):
And hey, now we were there oh.
Jerry Grossman (21:23):
I'm sorry.
PMA Magazine was absolutelythere.
One of our foremost competitors, that's right.
Gary Pageau (21:28):
Well, we almost merged at one point.
That's like an untold story.
I don't know if we can get intothat one, but we almost merged
our publications at one point.
Jerry Grossman (21:35):
That's true.
We did talk about that a littlebit.
Gary Pageau (21:38):
And then, of course, there was Picture
Business.
That was out there, pictureBusiness with Doris Burke was,
it Was that it was PictureBusiness.
Mike McEnany was running that.
Jerry Grossman (21:48):
Oh, that's right , Mike was doing that.
They were right, it was right.
Gary Pageau (21:52):
But you're right, there wasn't a lot right, there
wasn't a lot.
There used to be a ton.
Oh, photographic processing andall yeah.
Jerry Grossman (22:00):
Ed and Rudy used to like invent magazines every
other week and there was a lotof advertising dollars.
It was all good.
And, you know, our kind of realpromise was the PMA show.
Right, we were going to do thedailies, we were going to do
that.
Really great revenue, greattime.
And then, you know, things wentwell.
I mean, we held on for about 20years, which I'm very proud of,
(22:23):
and I owe a lot to the industryfor always supporting us,
always appreciating us, becausewe ended up being pretty much
the you know, the only game intown.
At the end, look, the industrygot smaller.
You know, the dealer base gotsmaller, but there was always a
need.
I thought, thought for apublication that supported the
dealers, that talked about thebusiness.
(22:44):
That was our focus.
That's what we always tried todo.
We tried to be honest witheveryone and, uh, you know, I'm
kind of proud that it allhappened.
It was a cool time yeah, I meanit was.
Gary Pageau (22:53):
You know you were guys were a solid competitor and
you know that was.
That was always one of thethings where you know the world
was big enough.
It was PMA world where you knowyou could come in and do your
daily and I think somebody elsetried to daily once or twice and
and there was plenty to goaround.
I mean our show issues weremonsters because of the
advertising back then and youknow just, the world changed.
(23:16):
You know I mean that was justthe reality of you know the.
The show got smaller, thedealer base started getting
smaller, the.
You know there was the stuffthat took to process pictures
that you know took up a bunch ofadvertising in our books was,
you know, all the gadgets youneeded to process film, all the
film processor, film leaders andall that kind of stuff.
Yeah, all went away and you know, just there wasn't, there
(23:38):
wasn't the base there right
it was harder, harder andharder after I find the
advertisers, butBut I do have to commend, while
I'm in this world, the photodealers.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Jerry Grossman (23:49):
Because you know they're like the best people,
they're the most committed.
They, you know they saw theirbusinesses start to dwindle when
the phones came out and allthat, but they were always
committed to photography and youknow a lot of them obviously
went out of business.
A lot of them, people aged outwho you know, own businesses.
But as I understand it now andas I hear now, people you know,
(24:12):
photo dealers are starting togrow again.
People are starting to open newbusinesses and I think that's
fantastic.
But I always I appreciate it.
I really love the people in theindustry.
Gary Pageau (24:23):
Oh yeah, I mean, that's what keeps me in it
honestly is you mean I lovegoing to the pro convention and
IPI and it's just, you know,they're just people who care
about their business.
They care about theircommunities.
They're running smartbusinesses, they're making great
decisions and, you know, whenyou really go to a pro
conference, you just see thebest of the best, who are so
(24:47):
creative.
Jerry Grossman (24:48):
Yeah, exactly, and what they do and so unique
and and just, you know it look,it's a it's a quote-unquote
small business, but it's.
It takes so much to runsomething like that and there
are so many success stories andso many stories of you know
families third, secondgeneration, third generation
that that continue to be, um,you know, committed to the
(25:08):
business.
So I, I have to, I have to takemy hat off to them.
Gary Pageau (25:12):
I know I couldn't do it.
I don't think I could run acamera store and I think it
would be.
I mean just what it takes to dosomething like that in terms of
knowing how to buy, when to buy, negotiate terms, deal with
rebates, all those crazy thingsthat, because the camera
industry is really kind of thehardware business, is super hard
because there's not much marginthere.
So you've got to really knowwhat you're doing and and those
(25:35):
guys definitely do and womenthere's obviously female dealers
.
When I say guys, it's a genericthing, right, exactly exactly
yeah, no, they are really proudof them so, but then as part of
that evolution in your career,you also were involved with the
industry association for themanufacturers, the PMDA.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you got involved with PMDA?
Jerry Grossman (25:57):
Absolutely.
When I bought the magazine Ithought, all right, it's time to
be on the board.
I was offered a spot on theboard when I was at Nikon, but I
just I wasn't ready for it, Ididn't think.
But when I had my business Iwas, like's, here's a place to
sort of meet all the people thatused to not be my competitors,
etc.
Etc.
I ended up being the executivedirector and we did some great
(26:18):
stuff.
One thing we did was, um, weinvented a program called
portraits of love, yeah, wherewe asked photographers to take
pictures of military familiesand then we sent those images to
soldiers all around the worldand, right, me and, uh, michelle
tramitano, who was working withme as well, kind of built that
(26:38):
up as as big give back programyeah, that was a great program
it really was.
It was it.
It made us feel great and, um,you know, kudos to fuji for
helping us out on that.
And then we also did the youknow pmda awards dinner every
year, where we we did aphotographer of the year and an
industry leader of the year andall that and had our big parties
in vegas and all that.
(26:59):
But the cool thing about pmapnda as well is, you know, those
were opportunities to getpeople together in the industry
to talk to each other, right andand it's so valuable.
And so after that happened, pmakind of went away.
Unfortunately, PMDA sort of wassuffering a little bit.
So we started on the uh imagingalliance, right, which the
(27:21):
thought on that was you know,why should we have a
manufacturer's uh tradeassociation and a retailer deals
trade association?
Why don't we put it together,right?
So we started the ImagingAlliance, invited both dealers
and manufacturers to it, and youknow it was a great.
It was just a great opportunityto once every two months, sit
(27:42):
around a table, talk about theindustry, talk about give back
programs, which we did a few ofthem.
And you know I kept that going.
I was executive director.
We probably kept that going.
I was executive director there.
We probably kept that goingabout four or five years and
then COVID hit and it got it gotharder to keep it going.
But but that whole notion oftrade associations that get
(28:02):
people together, PMDA used tohave back in the I guess, the
early 2000s, maybe the 90s, acocktail party every month in
New York City .
Gary Pageau (28:12):
Get together, have a few drinks, have a dinner
yeah, I used to come in forthose almost every month.
Jerry Grossman (28:17):
I'd be pma guy going to the pmda meeting almost
every month yeah, and and theywere great and and that you know
that whole notion of especiallyafter covid.
You know where people figuredout that they could do a zoom,
that they don't have to gettogether, they don't have to see
each other.
The ability to get into a room,put the whole industry together
just to talk, just to befriends, just to talk about the
(28:39):
challenges.
Um, I was a big believer inthat.
So my, my whole PMDA imagingAlliance um run was was really,
really a great way for me togive back anyway.
So that was a a very fulfillingpart of my, um, my career,
which I I kind of miss now.
(29:00):
Like you, you're, you're outthere doing it.
Still, I'm not doing it as muchand I'm just seeing the people.
I'm just just, you know, yeah.
I mean that's keeping thefriendships wrong.
Gary Pageau (29:09):
I mean it because it is how people do business.
I mean, that's, you know reasonwhy you know, when you go to
these conferences pro ipi, etc.
Um, you know, hans harman singh, visual first is another one,
right, the people.
I say the value of those eventsis in addition to the content,
is is mostly the networkinginteraction.
So anytime.
Jerry Grossman (29:28):
Yep, no, it's been.
Um, it's been a long timeanyway.
Gary Pageau (29:30):
But it is a people business.
I mean, that's what I kind ofmiss about the industry is, even
though we have these enormouscompanies right Nikon, olympus,
fuji, canon, sony, kodak they'realways had great people in them
, right?
You could go to an event or aconference, a PMDA Hall of Fame
Awards night dinner, and youcould just see people all over
the world who every other nightof the year, every other day of
(29:52):
the year, they're doing battlein the marketplace, right, but
at that event they're just, youknow, they put the swords down
and they're all got their armsaround each other.
Jerry Grossman (30:00):
They're all in the same boat and they all
respected each other.
They all respected you know howhard it was to run these
businesses.
Yeah, and, and how?
Much time you spent away fromyour families and you know,
traveling to japan and travelingto all these trade shows and,
like you said, you know everyonelike each other, everyone, not
everyone, but pretty much.
Gary Pageau (30:21):
There's always that one guy at that company,
right, we won't mention that oneexactly we won't go there.
Jerry Grossman (30:27):
But um, yeah, it was.
Um, I've always said it's.
It was such a great industry togrow up in and to to sort of be
part of what my career was.
And you know, from that onephone call from the guy I didn't
even know to, you know, allthese years of just being able
to be a part of, you know, notjust a great business, but we
(30:48):
haven't really spoken about thisthe creativity.
Gary Pageau (30:51):
Oh yeah.
Jerry Grossman (30:52):
You know the creativity of photography by
itself.
You know the fact that everyonegot to work with all these
great photographers and whetherthey're portrait or landscape or
travel, whatever, you know,everyone in the industry was
creative in their own right, andthere aren't a lot of
industries.
If you're an accountant, that'snot happening Right, but if
you're in the imaging businessimaging industry it's happening
(31:16):
all around you, and I thinkthat's what really kept people
in the industry for a long time.
Gary Pageau (31:20):
Yeah Well, it drew a lot of creative people, just
because, if you wanted to bevisual, that was the way to do
it.
And now you, you know it's kindof spread out ever and now you
know, with heck, with ai, youcould you only have to get out
in the field to make a picture.
Right, you could just yeahisn't that scary?
I mean, I, I, you know, I don'tknow, I don't know, like you
know, it's interesting I gottalook back on it, as you know
(31:41):
kind of the fear people had withwhen photoshop came in and it
didn't kill the industry.
So you know, I could, you, Ican, you know I could be super
naive, but I think it was goingback to our conversation earlier
.
Maybe it'll be.
Jerry Grossman (31:54):
Authentic pictures are going to be even
more meaningful now becausebecause of things like that,
yeah, and and you know what, Idon't think people in industry
ever want to lose the creativityof it, and if you know, you
could be creative using AI aswell.
It's kind of interesting.
But I think the whole nature ofphotography, I think that's
(32:16):
going to always be around.
I think people will alwaysenjoy taking pictures.
I think people always enjoycapturing the moment when things
happen.
And you see it all the timehere after dinner and it's like
let's take a picture of the fourof us around a dinner table you
never did that before.
And that's going to alwayshappen.
Gary Pageau (32:36):
Well, but then the question is it gets to the
business side, right.
How does the everyday personmake a couple bucks out of that
picture, right, and that'salways going to be a challenge
going forward.
Jerry Grossman (32:44):
Well, that's true too.
Gary Pageau (32:46):
So let's talk a little bit about the IPC
luncheon.
Can you give us the details onthat and where can people go to
find out more about it and seeyou get your award?
Jerry Grossman (32:59):
Absolutely so.
Oh God, I should have the date.
I think it's May 14th.
It is indeed.
It is May 14th.
It's become sort of the annualtrade luncheon, if you will.
It's a great organization.
They promote photography allaround the world.
It's happening at the UnitedNations.
I am lucky enough to be therecipient of the Distinguished
(33:23):
Service Award for my XXX numberof years in the industry and I
won't say what it is, butbecause it's, because it's scary
, but um it should be numerousother people being uh given
awards too.
Gary Pageau (33:36):
I mean, there's, you ,J oe mcnally, a lot of
named photographers andluminaries will be there as well
exactly, it's not.
Jerry Grossman (33:44):
you're right, I'm not the only draw, is what
you're saying.
Gary Pageau (33:46):
Thank you, gary, I appreciate that you alone are
sufficient, I'm sure, but thereare others yeah right.
Jerry Grossman (33:52):
If you go to wwwipcphotoorg, you get your
tickets.
It's a really nice event and,like I said, it's one of the
kind of last bastions of tradeassociation get together where
people could just talk aboutthings.
I really appreciate whatphotography is all about, but
it's a fantastic organization.
(34:13):
I have to thank KathySchneider-Jello, who was
probably one of the first peopleto call me when I got to Scalli
McCabe Sloves years ago.
She was running advertising forPeterson's Photographic, if you
remember that, and she, eventhough she's moved out to
Florida and she's sellinghigh-end cars, she still every
year puts this program togetherand does an amazing job.
(34:34):
So I thank her for it.
And, yeah, if people want tocome and hang out and have a
nice lunch and it'd be great tosee everyone there
Well, great, Jerry, it's beengreat talking to you and
reconnecting and reminiscingHope to see you at May 14th at
the United Nations.
Congratulations on your award.
Thank you.
Well, thank you, Gary, and youknow what Thank you for.
I'm sure people say this everyonce in a while, but thank you
(34:54):
for all you've done in theindustry.
You're the guy that has keptthe light on for a long time,
and I know you have a lot moreyears left than anything that I
could do to help you.
Please let me know, and Ireally appreciate this too.
This was a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun reminiscingwith you.
Gary Pageau (35:08):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Jerry.
Take care, all right, take care, bye-bye.
Erin Manning (35:13):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at.
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau.
Today, we're joined by oh mygosh Jerry Grossman, co-founder
and editor-in-chief of DigitalImaging.
Reporter Jerry and I have knowneach other since like day one
of the-.
Jerry Grossman (00:34):
A hundred years, I think.
Gary Pageau (00:36):
A hundred years, yes, since the dawn of
photography, glass plates andall that.
No, I'm just joking.
But no, Jerry and I have goneback many years.
We want to talk a little bitabout kind of how the industry
has changed over the years.
He's been working formanufacturers, he's been on the
publication side and now he's inhigher education actually, and
(00:56):
he's going to be getting theInternational Photographic
Council Distinguished ServiceAward next month and I can talk
a little bit about that.
But, J erry, how are you doing?
Jerry Grossman (01:07):
I'm doing great, Gary, how are you doing?
Gary Pageau (01:09):
Always fun to talk to you Fabulous, fabulous, and
it's always good to see oldfriends.
It seems like there's fewer andfewer places to see old friends
these days, with kind of theshow thing going away and
publications going away andthings like that.
So I knew, I remember you and Imet back in Nikon days when you
were at Nikon.
How did you get started atNikon?
How did you start your careerin the industry?
Jerry Grossman (01:31):
It's a funny story.
I think it's funny anyway.
I was in the advertisingbusiness early on working on
Stanley Tools and CrestToothpaste and all that.
So I'm working on a Charmintoilet paper account and I get a
call from headhunter and Ididn't even know the phone rings
.
I pick it up.
There's an opening on the Nikoncamera Scalli McCabe Sloves,
(01:51):
which was a great ad agency.
I literally never met this guy,but it sounded like an amazing
thing.
So I'm thinking about it.
I'm going well, please don'tsqueeze a Charmin.
We take the world's greatestpictures.
What sounds better?
And I think we take the world'sgreatest pictures sounds a lot
better.
So I ended up going on theinterview.
I got the job.
It was for, I think, accountsupervisor on an Nikon account,
(02:15):
and that's literally how Istarted my career in the
industry, and I always tellpeople, including my students, I
said you never know when thephone rings who's going to be on
the other end and how it'sgoing to affect your life.
If I was in the bathroom whenthat phone rang, I might have
never been in this industry,
Gary Pageau (02:29):
is it like testing the Charmin product, for
example.
Jerry Grossman (02:33):
For example.
Yes, that's a perfect example.
That's how it started and I wason the Nikon account for about
a year and a half or so and thenthe person who had the general
manager of communications job atNikon was leaving Steve Jarman.
I don't know if you rememberSteve years ago still a very
good friend, and he recommendedme for his spot.
(02:54):
So then they hired me overthere and then that was sort of
the beginning of my career inthe photo industry.
Gary Pageau (03:00):
So did you have any interest in photography
other than being a snapshooterback then?
Did you have any background atphotography other than being a
snapshooter?
Back then did you have anybackground at all you know what?
Jerry Grossman (03:07):
not, not really.
I was.
You know I was.
I guess you can call me a photoenthusiast, but I I really
wasn't.
I think I had an slr.
You know, I, I was just I.
I was very, you know, I wasalways on the creative side.
So I took a lot of pictures.
But there was something abouthearing nikon and then I ran out
, bought a copy of popularphotography magazine so this
amazing spread for the NAA, ifyou remember that shot by
(03:29):
Michael O'Neill and I said youknow what?
This is what I want to do.
This is so creative and therewas such a, it was such a cool
brand and that I couldn't resist.
So I took the job and I stayedon the business side, but I
learned so much aboutphotography, obviously by just
being around it.
It changed my life in a verypositive way.
Gary Pageau (03:49):
And you really you know, back then it was
obviously film and it was and itwas a.
It was a different world becauseyou really had the, the SLR,
not DSLR, just SLR.
Thirty five millimeter wasreally the epitome of
photography back then.
So there was a huge amount ofinterest in an.
Autofocus was coming in prettystrong.
(04:11):
It was kind of changing thegame because different
manufacturers had differentstrategies of where they were
going to put their autofocus andyou know that changed things up
.
It was kind of controversialback then.
You know whether you put it inthe lens or you put it in the
body or wherever, you know thatkind of thing.
Jerry Grossman (04:25):
Exactly.
Gary Pageau (04:25):
What was that like in that Cause?
That was a pretty vibrant area,kind of high tech even.
Jerry Grossman (04:31):
It was crazy.
Cause?
Cause a, there was no digitaland B, by the way, there was no
internet Right, Everything waschanging.
Autofocus was a huge deal,exposure control was a huge deal
.
There was a real fight betweenNikon and Canon, obviously,
which I think continues today.
It was an exciting time.
Digital was just coming around.
(04:51):
That was like in the I guess,the mid to late 90s, and I
remember sitting in meetingswhen it first started where we'd
see these digital images and myold friend, richard Lepinto,
who I'm sure you hear him aswell, would say, yeah, it's
digital, but it'll never be thesame thing as film.
Gary Pageau (05:08):
Well, everyone thought that, right yeah.
Jerry Grossman (05:11):
And then, like six months later, it was like,
oh, these images are pretty good, but it'll never be film, but
it's pretty good.
And then there was this arcright.
And then it was like about thesame.
And then just digital keptgetting better and better and
better.
It was a crazy time because wewere selling film cameras.
Obviously we were sellingdigital cameras.
We were trying to get into that.
(05:31):
We were selling point-and-shootdigital cameras.
We were watching technologychange in front of our eyes.
It was exhilarating.
Gary Pageau (05:37):
And then one of the things that was interesting
was Nikon, back then actually,when it came to compact cameras
and early digital, were prettyinnovative.
I mean, they were trying, youknow, rotating lenses and all
kinds of interesting designs,you know, which were very
different from what the othercompact companies were doing.
What was that like?
(05:58):
I mean, because obviouslyyou're getting this stuff from
Japan, you know, what was thedesign ideas like back then?
What was driving that?
Jerry Grossman (06:05):
If you remember, and I'm sure you do, um, it
started to be all about themegapixels at first, right,
right yeah, yeah we had our coolpics cameras and and everyone
was sort of competing on on thatside of it right it was, who
can make the better point andshoot.
And we had a uh, I forget whatit was called the coolpix,
something that um had a pen youcould draw on.
It was really early on.
I forget the name of it.
It was called the Coolpix,something that had a pen you
could draw on.
It was really early on.
I forget the name of it.
(06:26):
It was the Megapixel Wars.
Right, it was every year.
It was like, well, now, twomegapixels, three megapixels.
There was also this fight, asI'm thinking about it, of do we
include the eight megabytecompact flash card in the camera
?
Right, because if we do, wehave to charge a little more.
If we don't, then when the kidsCoolPix their camera on
(06:49):
christmas day, they can't take apicture, right, so, like what,
what do we do?
So that was a fight that sortof, you know, evolved over into,
you know, let's not include itanymore.
I think once it reached like 60megabytes, it got too big or
something like that.
So it was, um, you know, allthat stuff was happening.
It was again anotherexhilarating time, because sales
(07:09):
were going crazy.
Oh yeah, right.
Every year, every company wasgetting bigger and bigger and
bigger and bigger.
Gary Pageau (07:15):
Oh yeah, Plus, you had, you know, all kinds of
brands that were getting, youknow, being introduced to the
market, or they were beingreinvigorated, where they just,
you know, digital cameracompanies were just popping up
out of nowhere.
Jerry Grossman (07:27):
Exactly, and the major brands were sort of
controlling the market in apretty good way.
But it was a crazy time and, bythe way, at the same time.
So I was the general manager ofcommunications and there was
this thing called the internetsort of starting to happen,
right.
And my boss came to me.
He said, Jerry, you are now thevice president of internet
(07:48):
development.
And I was like okay, what doesthat mean?
And he said you need to get awebsite up in about the next six
months.
I was like all right, what's awebsite?
Gary Pageau (07:55):
because no one knew what that was yeah, exactly
what's a website?
Jerry Grossman (07:58):
everyone wanted one, but no one.
No one knew what it was and ourchallenge, interestingly, was
Nikon was a consumer brand andalso a medical device brand.
We made microscopes andinstruments and for the first
time we were charged withcombining the brand into one
internet site because wecouldn't do one without the
other.
So from a branding standpointthat was sort of fun and
(08:21):
interesting and cool.
Gary Pageau (08:24):
And again, you're not using any of the modern
technology that we're all usedto right.
Everyone was inventing thatstuff as it was happening, right
?
So the whole idea of having youknow different pages for
different divisions and how thatwas going to look, and that
must have been almost anightmare.
Jerry Grossman (08:37):
Totally different, and also the people
that you were working with.
Whoever knew the coolest wordswere the people you thought were
the smartest people in the roomRight, Internet, this internet,
that.
But I have to tell you I spenta lot of time in San Francisco.
It was really, as I think aboutmy career looking back, it was
one of the most you know thecoolest time, because all this
(08:58):
technology was happening both onthe product side on the
Internet side, and no one knewwhat was coming next.
Yeah, and that was fantastic.
Gary Pageau (09:06):
You know it's funny because when you talk
about things like that, uh, youknow people today who didn't
grow up in that area.
Right, and you know therewasn't the belief necessarily
that film was going to getreplaced.
Right, because no one couldreally see the future and
certainly no one expected.
You know, smartphones andthings like it.
Maybe somebody did Right, butnot, you know, in the
(09:28):
photographic industry, which atthe time was considered pretty
high tech, right, and the beliefnever was.
You know, at first, you knowthat that people are going to
change their behavior asradically as they did.
I think that was.
I think the thing that thatsurprised most people was just
the volume of pictures justexploded that people were taking
(09:48):
.
Jerry Grossman (09:49):
Exactly.
Well, yeah, because you know,all of a sudden, when you took a
picture, you didn't take one,you took three or four or five,
because you weren't paying forfilm anymore.
Right, the photographicbehavior changed, right, Right,
people all of a sudden thought,well, you know, the other part
of it was well, I don't reallyneed an SLR anymore because I
got this sort of point and shootdigital camera that you know,
(10:09):
that's taking pretty goodpictures now.
Gary Pageau (10:21):
So that changed.
Jerry Grossman (10:22):
And then I think the most shocking and happened
years later.
If someone had said to you, youknow, kodak's going to go out
of business, you'd be like, no,they're not Right.
But they kind of missed theboat by sort of hanging on to
film for a long time becausethey had to.
There were so many thingshappening and, like you just
said before, the smartphone iscreeping up.
Oh, it's taking pretty goodpictures.
Yeah, but people are alwaysgoing to want cameras.
Yeah, but it's taking betterand better.
And I remember Gary being in aconference with you and you may
(10:44):
have even been on stage with me,I'm not sure and one of the
camera companies and maybe maybeit was Nokia said in five years
we're going to be able to take12 megapixel pictures on a phone
.
And we're like, no, you're not.
Who was that Right?
Right, that's never going tohappen.
Gary Pageau (11:04):
And you know, I've never seen ever right exactly
so well, and you know they'rejust assumptions that people
made back.
I mean, you mentioned kodak andI don't want to, you know, turn
this into a.
You know what went wrong withkodak, because I've done that
podcast a couple times and it'sgo back to those listener.
But you know the thing was ispeople really didn't?
You know the misconceptionthere was.
(11:24):
You know the thing was ispeople really didn't?
You know the misconceptionthere was.
You know Kodak was a chemicalscompany.
They were not a consumerelectronics company.
They were trying to leave frombeing a chemicals company to
being a consumer electronicscompany and that just the
margins were different.
It's a different business and Idon't think anyone expected
especially the folks at Kodakthat people weren't going to
print as much.
I really thought they kind ofthought well, people are still
(11:47):
going to want that physicalprint, they're going to print
more and no matter how I meanthey tried I don't know how many
different things to make iteasier to make the print
pictures right.
The kiosks became super easy.
They had buttons on the camera,one button print and it, just
it, just the demand wasn't there.
People, once they saw thepicture, didn't need to print
(12:08):
everything.
So the printing business haschanged a lot.
Jerry Grossman (12:10):
It's become more of a creative expression
instead of I need to have thatpicture
no, that's true, .
we were literally changingconsumers' behavior in
photography in so many differentways, right Going from film to
digital, going from point andshoot cameras, you know, to
smartphones, trying to keepDSLRs relevant at the same time
yeah, sure, you know, thetechnology just kept coming and
coming.
What's amazing about thisindustry is, you know all the
(12:33):
major manufacturers and you knowway, way many more companies
than that continue to push theenvelope on technology in so
many different ways, and to me,that always impressed me like
crazy.
That just that kept theindustry going.
When, if you think about it,when the point and shoot digital
market crashed it isn't likethe industry crashed.
The industry got a lot smaller.
(12:54):
You know sales, sales gotsmaller, but we you know the,
the industry and themanufacturers and the technology
just kept getting better andbetter.
Yeah, so well, I mean that is away of looking at it.
I mean, sure, the $100point-and-shoot market's kind of
gone because it's all in thephone, but you've got now.
You've got, you know, Fuji,Canon, Nikon, Leica, all these
(13:15):
people having these, really, youknow wonderful compact cameras.
It's not even getting amirrorless or DSLRs, but it just
sees compact range finder typecameras.
Or even Nikon just came outwith a super zoom that they're
addressing the market with.
You know, products that cost alot more but they can
demonstrate that they're worthit, right.
Here's what's interesting I'm teaching a class
(13:38):
of 20 year olds in publicrelations and I talk to them all
the time because I want to hearwhat's going on.
And there has been this trendlately of those kids Gen Zers,
if you will buying point andshoot digital cameras again and
wanting to use them.
And I asked my class what is itabout that?
They said this is great.
They said when you're using aniPhone, the pictures are too
(14:01):
good, they're too perfect.
Right?
I swear to god, it's like.
It's like we want.
We want to, you know, takepictures that aren't perfect,
that maybe show a different kindof mood.
Gary Pageau (14:11):
So maybe there's a little bit of a comeback there,
but I thought that was uh well,well, they want that
authenticity, right, and that'sand that's driving the whole
re-emergence of film that we'reseeing, right, that exactly
getting those imperfect picturesare slightly out of focus or,
you know, they're even likedistressing the necks and
they're you know, all thesepeople selling outdated film
because they want it to lookweird.
(14:31):
You know, and right, you know,and it's funny because I'm I'm
from the world where we tried toget away from all that it's
like you want to make thepicture on the film as perfect
as possible in the camera, getthe great exposure, get the
thing you want in focus and allthe other stuff, and now it's
like, well, we want it to be alittle imperfect.
Jerry Grossman (14:48):
Right, you really have to.
You know, as a marketing person, you really have to listen to
the new generation.
You can't just keep doing whatyou're doing.
You're doing it.
I think that's the perfectlesson of they're looking at
what we threw in the garbage,they're looking at film, they're
looking at point and shootcameras and they're saying you
know what, there's somethinggoing on here.
So you know what?
(15:09):
If it continues to drive theinterest in photography which I
think we haven't reallymentioned, but I think that
phones absolutely did that.
You know people that never tookpictures before, we're now
taking pictures every minute ofevery day.
Yeah, it's been a crazyindustry.
I mean, as we're talking andwhere we're living, it it's.
It's been a crazy.
You know, 25, 30 years.
Gary Pageau (15:30):
It really has, and really photography.
However, whatever yourdescription of that is right,
whether it's, you know,smartphones, mirrorless cameras,
action cameras you know wehaven't even talked about, you
know, all the some of the, allthe different kinds of cameras
there are now, right, it'sreally more popular than ever.
It's just we don't have thecamera.
Companies aren't really leadingthe charge in a lot of ways on
(15:54):
that, right, and so you knowit'll be interesting to see why,
or what happens, you know, canthey make a mirrorless camera,
you know, be more like a phone,like?
I've always been surprised why,for example, Canon or Nikon
doesn't come up with a camerabody that you can put a, you
know, a camera in it, right, soit basically is wireless to
(16:15):
transmit directly from thecamera and who knows, I mean I'm
sure there's probably atechnical reason why they can't
from the camera, and I'm whoknows, I mean I'm sure there's
probably a technical reason whythey can't, but it's just one of
those things where I think, youknow, there's a lot of
innovation happening, but it'snot just coming from the big
three or the big exactly, yeah,because it's, it's, they're
advanced digital technicalcompanies that can, that can
(16:38):
contribute all different kindsof thinking that maybe the
camera companies you know neverhad to do, obviously, now that
they're doing it more and more.
Jerry Grossman (16:47):
I mean, if you think about it, the engineers
and the camera companies arebrilliant, right, the things
that they did over the yearsjust inventing different
technologies.
I remember when Red EyeReduction was invented, my
friend Eran Steinberg, remember,Eran, yeah, great guy.
You know, he was kind of theguy that put that on the map
(17:08):
when, like, oh, wow, you take apicture and there's no red eye
anymore that was that was backin the 35 millimeter point
shooting.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
But but you know there's, likeI said, there's always been
technology like coming andcoming and coming and you know
I'm impressed and proud of allthose companies that didn't give
up and said, no, we're going tomake things better, right, and
(17:29):
they and they continue to do it.
Gary Pageau (17:31):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean honestly, if you look atsome of the bigger companies,
you know as cameras have becomelesser part of their business
Right, because you know Canon'sa copier company and nikon's a
medical instruments company andsony's an entertainment company,
right, and it's still in thebusiness and they're still
innovating.
Right, they're still doing someamazing things with the
products, beyond what you knowmost of us could recommend or
(17:54):
remember that you know, withterms of like, what you can
shoot with isos.
Now, I mean just I rememberwhen, like 800 iso was pushing
it right yeah, right, right nowthat's like a tiny number.
Jerry Grossman (18:04):
I know, right, all those companies, you know,
the cream always rises to thetop and and all those companies
have just, especially, uh, sonyhas been very impressive.
I mean, they kind of, you know,started mirrorless.
They said we're going to bemirrorless, we're going to do
mirrorless and, like you justsaid, they were an entertainment
company but decided to put, youknow, all their eggs and all
(18:25):
the camera eggs in that basketand it's paid off.
Gary Pageau (18:33):
It's really paid off for them.
Yeah, it's been very impressivemic on right and it was doing
wonderful things and then yousaid I want to take a risk and I
want to do something else.
So what was that like when youtook over uh, rudy and ed's
publication?
Jerry Grossman (18:51):
first you got to say who that is and what that
was and how that came aboutexactly, rudy mask and ed wagner
were, um, two guys in thepublishing industry that had
been there for a thousand years.
They owned PTN.
They had a lot of differentmagazines.
I was an icon.
There was a change inmanagement.
My dad had always said to me hehad his own business.
(19:12):
He said you have to have yourown business one day, because
that's really changed your life.
So all that's happening.
I call up Ed Wagner.
I'll never forget it.
I said Ed, he had sold PTN andstarted Photo Industry Reporter
in 1993 with Rudy and it wasn'ta good looking magazine but he
was out there trying to make abuck and all that.
So I called him up.
(19:34):
I said Ed, if you ever want tosell your magazine, let me know
because I might be interested.
He said, and I quoted.
I quoted, said jerry, I'm 85years old.
He goes, let's have lunch thisweek.
I said okay, so had lunch.
Um, I had, you know I.
I was pretty confident that Icould run a magazine from the
(19:54):
edit side.
I'd been the editor of nikonworld magazine when I was at
nikon, so I kind got it.
I needed a person to selladvertising and I had a friend
Allan Levine was working at GolfDigest at the time and I called
him.
I said, Al, I have this sort ofidea about buying this magazine
.
Let's talk about it.
(20:15):
He came over, he looked at themagazine and said what are you
kidding me?
I said, no, no, no, it was notpretty.
It was not pretty.
It was but.
And I said, but, we could dosomething here.
And he said, all right, let'sdo it.
We pulled our money.
We bought the magazine in 2005as Photo Industry Reporter.
We ended up changing it toDigital Imaging Reporter and I
think around 2009 to 2010.
(20:36):
And we turned it.
You know, Ed's magazine wasblack and white on crappy paper.
We turned it into a you knowkind of a good looking magazine.
Gary Pageau (20:44):
It was exciting.
Jerry Grossman (20:44):
And I have to tell you that the thing that
sort of I still think about isthe support.
You know, when I left Nikonafter 12 or 13 years, I was
always the Nikon guy.
But the support that I got fromthe whole industry, from my
(21:05):
former enemies, now friends atCanon and Sony and Pentax and
Ricoh, and all those guys sortof said you know what, we're
going to help this guy out andI'll never forget it.
I'm always grateful for it.
But it started kind of a newcareer of being in the
publishing business.
There weren't a lot of trademagazines left.
Gary Pageau (21:21):
And hey, now we were there oh.
Jerry Grossman (21:23):
I'm sorry.
PMA Magazine was absolutelythere.
One of our foremost competitors, that's right.
Gary Pageau (21:28):
Well, we almost merged at one point.
That's like an untold story.
I don't know if we can get intothat one, but we almost merged
our publications at one point.
Jerry Grossman (21:35):
That's true.
We did talk about that a littlebit.
Gary Pageau (21:38):
And then, of course, there was Picture
Business.
That was out there, pictureBusiness with Doris Burke was,
it Was that it was PictureBusiness.
Mike McEnany was running that.
Jerry Grossman (21:48):
Oh, that's right , Mike was doing that.
They were right, it was right.
Gary Pageau (21:52):
But you're right, there wasn't a lot right, there
wasn't a lot.
There used to be a ton.
Oh, photographic processing andall yeah.
Jerry Grossman (22:00):
Ed and Rudy used to like invent magazines every
other week and there was a lotof advertising dollars.
It was all good.
And, you know, our kind of realpromise was the PMA show.
Right, we were going to do thedailies, we were going to do
that.
Really great revenue, greattime.
And then, you know, things wentwell.
I mean, we held on for about 20years, which I'm very proud of,
(22:23):
and I owe a lot to the industryfor always supporting us,
always appreciating us, becausewe ended up being pretty much
the you know, the only game intown.
At the end, look, the industrygot smaller.
You know, the dealer base gotsmaller, but there was always a
need.
I thought, thought for apublication that supported the
dealers, that talked about thebusiness.
(22:44):
That was our focus.
That's what we always tried todo.
We tried to be honest witheveryone and, uh, you know, I'm
kind of proud that it allhappened.
It was a cool time yeah, I meanit was.
Gary Pageau (22:53):
You know you were guys were a solid competitor and
you know that was.
That was always one of thethings where you know the world
was big enough.
It was PMA world where you knowyou could come in and do your
daily and I think somebody elsetried to daily once or twice and
and there was plenty to goaround.
I mean our show issues weremonsters because of the
advertising back then and youknow just, the world changed.
(23:16):
You know I mean that was justthe reality of you know the.
The show got smaller, thedealer base started getting
smaller, the.
You know there was the stuffthat took to process pictures
that you know took up a bunch ofadvertising in our books was,
you know, all the gadgets youneeded to process film, all the
film processor, film leaders andall that kind of stuff.
Yeah, all went away and you know, just there wasn't, there
(23:38):
wasn't the base there right
it was harder, harder andharder after I find the
advertisers, butBut I do have to commend, while
I'm in this world, the photodealers.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Jerry Grossman (23:49):
Because you know they're like the best people,
they're the most committed.
They, you know they saw theirbusinesses start to dwindle when
the phones came out and allthat, but they were always
committed to photography and youknow a lot of them obviously
went out of business.
A lot of them, people aged outwho you know, own businesses.
But as I understand it now andas I hear now, people you know,
(24:12):
photo dealers are starting togrow again.
People are starting to open newbusinesses and I think that's
fantastic.
But I always I appreciate it.
I really love the people in theindustry.
Gary Pageau (24:23):
Oh yeah, I mean, that's what keeps me in it
honestly is you mean I lovegoing to the pro convention and
IPI and it's just, you know,they're just people who care
about their business.
They care about theircommunities.
They're running smartbusinesses, they're making great
decisions and, you know, whenyou really go to a pro
conference, you just see thebest of the best, who are so
(24:47):
creative.
Jerry Grossman (24:48):
Yeah, exactly, and what they do and so unique
and and just, you know it look,it's a it's a quote-unquote
small business, but it's.
It takes so much to runsomething like that and there
are so many success stories andso many stories of you know
families third, secondgeneration, third generation
that that continue to be, um,you know, committed to the
(25:08):
business.
So I, I have to, I have to takemy hat off to them.
Gary Pageau (25:12):
I know I couldn't do it.
I don't think I could run acamera store and I think it
would be.
I mean just what it takes to dosomething like that in terms of
knowing how to buy, when to buy, negotiate terms, deal with
rebates, all those crazy thingsthat, because the camera
industry is really kind of thehardware business, is super hard
because there's not much marginthere.
So you've got to really knowwhat you're doing and and those
(25:35):
guys definitely do and womenthere's obviously female dealers
.
When I say guys, it's a genericthing, right, exactly exactly
yeah, no, they are really proudof them so, but then as part of
that evolution in your career,you also were involved with the
industry association for themanufacturers, the PMDA.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you got involved with PMDA?
Jerry Grossman (25:57):
Absolutely.
When I bought the magazine Ithought, all right, it's time to
be on the board.
I was offered a spot on theboard when I was at Nikon, but I
just I wasn't ready for it, Ididn't think.
But when I had my business Iwas, like's, here's a place to
sort of meet all the people thatused to not be my competitors,
etc.
Etc.
I ended up being the executivedirector and we did some great
(26:18):
stuff.
One thing we did was, um, weinvented a program called
portraits of love, yeah, wherewe asked photographers to take
pictures of military familiesand then we sent those images to
soldiers all around the worldand, right, me and, uh, michelle
tramitano, who was working withme as well, kind of built that
(26:38):
up as as big give back programyeah, that was a great program
it really was.
It was it.
It made us feel great and, um,you know, kudos to fuji for
helping us out on that.
And then we also did the youknow pmda awards dinner every
year, where we we did aphotographer of the year and an
industry leader of the year andall that and had our big parties
in vegas and all that.
(26:59):
But the cool thing about pmapnda as well is, you know, those
were opportunities to getpeople together in the industry
to talk to each other, right andand it's so valuable.
And so after that happened, pmakind of went away.
Unfortunately, PMDA sort of wassuffering a little bit.
So we started on the uh imagingalliance, right, which the
(27:21):
thought on that was you know,why should we have a
manufacturer's uh tradeassociation and a retailer deals
trade association?
Why don't we put it together,right?
So we started the ImagingAlliance, invited both dealers
and manufacturers to it, and youknow it was a great.
It was just a great opportunityto once every two months, sit
(27:42):
around a table, talk about theindustry, talk about give back
programs, which we did a few ofthem.
And you know I kept that going.
I was executive director.
We probably kept that going.
I was executive director there.
We probably kept that goingabout four or five years and
then COVID hit and it got it gotharder to keep it going.
But but that whole notion oftrade associations that get
(28:02):
people together, PMDA used tohave back in the I guess, the
early 2000s, maybe the 90s, acocktail party every month in
New York City .
Gary Pageau (28:12):
Get together, have a few drinks, have a dinner
yeah, I used to come in forthose almost every month.
Jerry Grossman (28:17):
I'd be pma guy going to the pmda meeting almost
every month yeah, and and theywere great and and that you know
that whole notion of especiallyafter covid.
You know where people figuredout that they could do a zoom,
that they don't have to gettogether, they don't have to see
each other.
The ability to get into a room,put the whole industry together
just to talk, just to befriends, just to talk about the
(28:39):
challenges.
Um, I was a big believer inthat.
So my, my whole PMDA imagingAlliance um run was was really,
really a great way for me togive back anyway.
So that was a a very fulfillingpart of my, um, my career,
which I I kind of miss now.
(29:00):
Like you, you're, you're outthere doing it.
Still, I'm not doing it as muchand I'm just seeing the people.
I'm just just, you know, yeah.
I mean that's keeping thefriendships wrong.
Gary Pageau (29:09):
I mean it because it is how people do business.
I mean, that's, you know reasonwhy you know, when you go to
these conferences pro ipi, etc.
Um, you know, hans harman singh, visual first is another one,
right, the people.
I say the value of those eventsis in addition to the content,
is is mostly the networkinginteraction.
So anytime.
Jerry Grossman (29:28):
Yep, no, it's been.
Um, it's been a long timeanyway.
Gary Pageau (29:30):
But it is a people business.
I mean, that's what I kind ofmiss about the industry is, even
though we have these enormouscompanies right Nikon, olympus,
fuji, canon, sony, kodak they'realways had great people in them
, right?
You could go to an event or aconference, a PMDA Hall of Fame
Awards night dinner, and youcould just see people all over
the world who every other nightof the year, every other day of
(29:52):
the year, they're doing battlein the marketplace, right, but
at that event they're just, youknow, they put the swords down
and they're all got their armsaround each other.
Jerry Grossman (30:00):
They're all in the same boat and they all
respected each other.
They all respected you know howhard it was to run these
businesses.
Yeah, and, and how?
Much time you spent away fromyour families and you know,
traveling to japan and travelingto all these trade shows and,
like you said, you know everyonelike each other, everyone, not
everyone, but pretty much.
Gary Pageau (30:21):
There's always that one guy at that company,
right, we won't mention that oneexactly we won't go there.
Jerry Grossman (30:27):
But um, yeah, it was.
Um, I've always said it's.
It was such a great industry togrow up in and to to sort of be
part of what my career was.
And you know, from that onephone call from the guy I didn't
even know to, you know, allthese years of just being able
to be a part of, you know, notjust a great business, but we
(30:48):
haven't really spoken about thisthe creativity.
Gary Pageau (30:51):
Oh yeah.
Jerry Grossman (30:52):
You know the creativity of photography by
itself.
You know the fact that everyonegot to work with all these
great photographers and whetherthey're portrait or landscape or
travel, whatever, you know,everyone in the industry was
creative in their own right, andthere aren't a lot of
industries.
If you're an accountant, that'snot happening Right, but if
you're in the imaging businessimaging industry it's happening
(31:16):
all around you, and I thinkthat's what really kept people
in the industry for a long time.
Gary Pageau (31:20):
Yeah Well, it drew a lot of creative people, just
because, if you wanted to bevisual, that was the way to do
it.
And now you, you know it's kindof spread out ever and now you
know, with heck, with ai, youcould you only have to get out
in the field to make a picture.
Right, you could just yeahisn't that scary?
I mean, I, I, you know, I don'tknow, I don't know, like you
know, it's interesting I gottalook back on it, as you know
(31:41):
kind of the fear people had withwhen photoshop came in and it
didn't kill the industry.
So you know, I could, you, Ican, you know I could be super
naive, but I think it was goingback to our conversation earlier
.
Maybe it'll be.
Jerry Grossman (31:54):
Authentic pictures are going to be even
more meaningful now becausebecause of things like that,
yeah, and and you know what, Idon't think people in industry
ever want to lose the creativityof it, and if you know, you
could be creative using AI aswell.
It's kind of interesting.
But I think the whole nature ofphotography, I think that's
(32:16):
going to always be around.
I think people will alwaysenjoy taking pictures.
I think people always enjoycapturing the moment when things
happen.
And you see it all the timehere after dinner and it's like
let's take a picture of the fourof us around a dinner table you
never did that before.
And that's going to alwayshappen.
Gary Pageau (32:36):
Well, but then the question is it gets to the
business side, right.
How does the everyday personmake a couple bucks out of that
picture, right, and that'salways going to be a challenge
going forward.
Jerry Grossman (32:44):
Well, that's true too.
Gary Pageau (32:46):
So let's talk a little bit about the IPC
luncheon.
Can you give us the details onthat and where can people go to
find out more about it and seeyou get your award?
Jerry Grossman (32:59):
Absolutely so.
Oh God, I should have the date.
I think it's May 14th.
It is indeed.
It is May 14th.
It's become sort of the annualtrade luncheon, if you will.
It's a great organization.
They promote photography allaround the world.
It's happening at the UnitedNations.
I am lucky enough to be therecipient of the Distinguished
(33:23):
Service Award for my XXX numberof years in the industry and I
won't say what it is, butbecause it's, because it's scary
, but um it should be numerousother people being uh given
awards too.
Gary Pageau (33:36):
I mean, there's, you ,J oe mcnally, a lot of
named photographers andluminaries will be there as well
exactly, it's not.
Jerry Grossman (33:44):
you're right, I'm not the only draw, is what
you're saying.
Gary Pageau (33:46):
Thank you, gary, I appreciate that you alone are
sufficient, I'm sure, but thereare others yeah right.
Jerry Grossman (33:52):
If you go to wwwipcphotoorg, you get your
tickets.
It's a really nice event and,like I said, it's one of the
kind of last bastions of tradeassociation get together where
people could just talk aboutthings.
I really appreciate whatphotography is all about, but
it's a fantastic organization.
(34:13):
I have to thank KathySchneider-Jello, who was
probably one of the first peopleto call me when I got to Scalli
McCabe Sloves years ago.
She was running advertising forPeterson's Photographic, if you
remember that, and she, eventhough she's moved out to
Florida and she's sellinghigh-end cars, she still every
year puts this program togetherand does an amazing job.
(34:34):
So I thank her for it.
And, yeah, if people want tocome and hang out and have a
nice lunch and it'd be great tosee everyone there
Well, great, Jerry, it's beengreat talking to you and
reconnecting and reminiscingHope to see you at May 14th at
the United Nations.
Congratulations on your award.
Thank you.
Well, thank you, Gary, and youknow what Thank you for.
I'm sure people say this everyonce in a while, but thank you
(34:54):
for all you've done in theindustry.
You're the guy that has keptthe light on for a long time,
and I know you have a lot moreyears left than anything that I
could do to help you.
Please let me know, and Ireally appreciate this too.
This was a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun reminiscingwith you.
Gary Pageau (35:08):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Jerry.
Take care, all right, take care, bye-bye.
Erin Manning (35:13):
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