October 23, 2025 • 29 mins
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What if your archive could fund your mission? We sit down with HistoryIT founder and CEO Kristen Gwinn-Becker to reveal why most organizations are far less “digital” than they think—and how a smart strategy can turn dusty boxes, dying tapes, and scattered drives into a living, searchable asset that powers storytelling, alumni engagement, and real fundraising results.
Gwinn-Becker walks us through the essentials: Start with strategy, not scanners. We delve into why PDFs are not a reliable form of preservation, how master files and standards safeguard against obsolescence, and why metadata is the engine that makes evidence discoverable. From NFL teams to fraternities and historical societies, she explores how unified metadata lets users click a single name and surface photos, plaques, film clips, and documents in seconds. The result is access that feels magical—and measurable. Hear how one membership organization achieved a 791% jump in its day of giving by making history personal and instant.
In this conversation, we also tackle the hard choices. Should you decide what’s “important” before digitizing? Gwinn-Becker explains the risks of guessing, the urgency of preserving magnetic tapes and obsolete formats before “last play,” and the real role of AI in accelerating metadata without surrendering quality control. We share practical steps to future-proof born-digital content: define owners, formats, intake checklists, and routine ingestion so the next twenty years don’t become another rescue project.
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the
photoimaging industry's openingoutdoors.
And here's your host, GaryPageau.
The Dead Pixels Society Podcastis brought to you by Media
clip, Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society Podcast.
I'm your host, , and todaywe're joined by Kristen
Gwinn-Becker, who is the founderand CEO of History IT.
Dr.
Gwinn Becker is coming to usfrom Portland, Maine.
Hi, how are you today?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (00:32):
I'm doing great.
How are you, Gary?
Gary Pageau (00:34):
I'm doing awesome.
I'm doing awesome.
So I have been following thedigitization market for a long
time, but I'm unfamiliar withyour company.
Can you talk about how itstarted and what it is you do?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (00:47):
Yeah, I'd love to.
Always love to talk abouteverything we do.
So I founded History IT almost15 years ago, 2011.
We are software and servicesfor all things digital
preservation and access.
So we provide the range ofservices, kind of soup to nuts,
digital archives andcollections.
We have our own softwareplatform called Odyssey
Preservation, which is, youknow, metadata catalog
(01:09):
management, digital assetmanagement, and museum curation
and presentation software all inone.
So you name it.
So our services range fromstrategic planning for digital
collections, what's it going totake to get fully digital?
What does that mean for anorganization?
What are the steps to getthere?
We have our own preservationimaging labs.
And we do all of all of theimaging.
(01:30):
We have legions of people whowork on metadata creation as
well as then the curatorialcomponent.
Gary Pageau (01:36):
So what's your story in terms of starting this?
Because I find when people getinto the preservation business,
the archive, there's usually apersonal story.
There's usually something thatinspired them to want to
preserve history.
What's your story with that?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (01:51):
You mean we're not all in it for the
money and the glamour?
Gary Pageau (01:53):
Um the glamour of the archiving business.
It's it's true.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (01:59):
It's true.
Gary Pageau (02:02):
Right, where someone comes in and does an
archive.
Kristen Gwinn-Becke (02:05):
Archivists.
Yeah.
My career spans both technologyand humanities.
I was u when I started mycareer as a database and web
developer for what that was inthe 90s.
So dot com boom bust.
Gary Pageau (02:17):
You have the flashbacks now, right?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (02:19):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I went to San Franciscoin '99 and and then I made the
you know very traditional choiceof moving from technology into
doing a PhD in history.
Um very critically.
Which everyone does at somepoint.
Exactly.
Yes.
It's like I said, it was very,very crowded field.
But I never wanted to teach.
I just, you know, got aresearch fellowship and that I
(02:39):
couldn't say no to, and I lovedhistory, but no idea what I
wanted to do with it, right?
So I finished my doctorate andI had this unique set of skills,
right?
But in terms of being able tospeak technology and understand
all of the challenges um aroundlike the world of digital and
the world of the humanities.
Um and there were a lot, therestill are a lot.
(03:02):
Really, what I had had wasyears and of experience um in
graduate school working inarchives, right?
Hundreds and hundreds ofarchives.
And it was seen as this like,uh, well, I have a PhD, so I
have this secret access to thisplace that only archivists and
historians go.
And our role is to look at allthis material and then interpret
(03:22):
it for you, the rest of theworld, right?
Right.
Gary Pageau (03:24):
Almost like a gatekeeper mentality.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (03:27):
Yeah, and like, but that in the like
Google, you know, online searchage of 15 years ago and today
even it's not realistic, right?
That can't be the only model.
People go online and they wantinformation, right?
So I founded this company umoriginally because I wanted to
help organizations, our marketis organizations and companies,
(03:50):
and we're not consumer focused,help organizations better
understand that we live in atime when content is king and
they are sitting on a uniquetrove of content, right?
So and that their archive issomething that they need to
utilize um in a wide variety ofways.
So that's really it startedwith that, this kind of passion
(04:11):
for figuring out ways to helporganizations understand the
value of their history and notonly preserving it, but
utilizing it to really kind ofbolster all of their other
efforts.
Gary Pageau (04:22):
When you work with an organization, I mean, there's
literally thousands of themaround the country, right?
And you've got everyone fromlike your local Kiwanas club to
businesses to nonprofits and allof these organizations.
And the people that I talk toin the consumer scanning space,
um, who are kind of getting intothat market, it's like it's
like they're coming at it fromthe from the bottom end, they're
(04:43):
working with local companies,maybe a library or a historical
society or something, they arejust stunned by the lack of
cohesiveness to the to thematerials because the record
keeping from maybe 50 years agowas not very good.
Or now they've got maybe 3Dobjects that they need to scan
(05:04):
or preserve.
Right.
Is that what you're discoveringeven with big organizations?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (05:08):
Yeah, I mean, so we work with everything
from the local historicalsociety to every type of
membership-based organization.
We work with NFL teams.
So I mean, it really scans ifyou're or I like to say if
you're an organization olderthan five minutes and you can
draw value from better beingable to tell your story, your
ideal for working with us.
Your question about it kind ofbeing all over the map, it's
(05:30):
absolutely true.
The the kind of main pain pointI think we solve when we talk
to any organization, what wehear most is I'm overwhelmed.
No idea where to begin, I'moverwhelmed, what's important,
where to start.
It's a mess.
You name the condition, we'veseen it.
That's why we always start withstrategy.
History IT approach isstrategy, then digital
preservation, and then share,like then the utilization and
(05:51):
the ROI of that.
So creating a strategic plan iscritical for any type of
organization to figure out tofully own where they are.
Gary Pageau (06:01):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (06:01):
You know, which is some I work with some
organizations I go in at leasttwice a week.
I have to tell people who thinkthat their organization is, you
know, we're 60% digital.
You're like, you're at two,maybe.
Like, you know, that, or likewe've digitized, but what's
that?
What does that mean?
It means we have really crappyPDFs somewhere and we don't even
know what like what they are.
So beginning a strategic planin place and saying, this is
(06:23):
where we are, this is where allof our stakeholders want to get
to, what is the roadmap to getthere?
And and having that in placebecause as people like staff and
volunteer turnover, you know,comes, we don't we have various
people with their hands in likethe metadata, and that becomes a
mess.
So if we don't begin with astrategy, then it's going to
fall apart.
We've all had that happen.
(06:44):
We've all had digital projectsthat, you know, then the IT guy
goes and now what are we doing?
Gary Pageau (06:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, because I mean imagineyou have a lot of stakeholders
in these things that are justlike you said, they kind of have
their own little turf, right?
You've got the IT people whothink they know better.
Um, they may not have a PhD inhistory, but you know, they've
got the IT background.
Or you might have maybe thedevelopment organization that is
trying to fundraise off theseassets, trying to build the
(07:12):
history, and you know, they'vegot their agenda.
And, you know, so bringing allthose people together has got to
be not a technical challenge,but a human relations challenge.
That's where the problemprobably is.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (07:25):
Yeah.
And I think early in my career,that's I really saw myself as a
translator between like the ITside, the library side, the
archive side, the curatorialside, the fundraising and
development side, the executiveside, they all use the same
words, but they mean verydifferent things.
In a cataloging environment,that's really problematic,
(07:46):
right?
Because people use the wordsthat they understand, like the
normal language to search forwhat they're looking for.
So there's even just gettinginto the technical detail
component of that, but the humanpart of it too.
So a big part of our job inbuilding that strategy is
getting everyone on the samepage and building a plan that
meets all of those needs andisn't skewed to one side of it,
(08:08):
right?
Because then if IT owns it,librarians are going to be
frustrated.
If archives or libraries ownit, fundraisers are never going
to be able to use it.
Gary Pageau (08:18):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (08:18):
Because it's going to be cataloged in a
in a way that is not useful.
Gary Pageau (08:22):
The Dewey decimal system or whatever.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The Library of Congress subjectauthority, where they you have
to use the word dwelling forhouse or home.
It's just not realistic.
Gary Pageau (08:32):
And I even think like even words that you that
most normal people would thinkwould be obvious, like archive
probably has a completelydifferent meaning and depending
on who you're talking to.
Because like in the IT world,archive means storage.
It doesn't necessarily mean youaccess it.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (08:46):
Right.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
Gary Pageau (08:49):
So let's talk a little bit about the metadata
piece because I think that'ssort of interesting because
that's something that everyonekind of knows about and they're
familiar with, because you know,with uh you know, exit data and
things like that that peoplecan now manipulate on their even
on their phones and things.
There's a lot of apps for doingthat sort of thing.
Are there any AI tools that arehelping with that now?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (09:09):
Um it's the huge question in this space
right now, right?
Is what's the balance ofhelping versus hurting,
hindering where we're we'realready far behind, even in
trying to get folks up to speedand what metadata means and like
that metadata is the magic thatmakes it all happen, right?
If something isn't cataloged ortagged in ways that the group
(09:32):
that is acting needs to accessit, much less future users can
understand, it is pointless.
It is pointless.
Don't do it.
Like if you're not going tosignificantly invest in your
metadata and the strategy ofthat metadata, you're you are
wasting your time and money.
But it is the most uh involvedand expensive project.
Most of the projects we do area minimum of 80,000 hours just
(09:54):
in metadata.
Gary Pageau (09:55):
Hours?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (09:56):
Hours.
Gary Pageau (09:57):
Wow.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (09:58):
That's for a collection, maybe three, four
million items.
So AI can be a huge asset inlike in many other areas, right?
Absolutely, right, yeah, yeah.
Metadata is never done, nomatter how many tools you have,
right?
You have to continue to refineit and refine it.
And using AI smartly, like anyother approach, is going to make
(10:21):
a lot of that creation moreefficient, more consistent, but
it still needs the human review,right?
So it's this, it's the balanceof what was always like, well,
let's balance the humancomponent with the technology
component, and now we'rebringing in AI.
Like I said, in most otherareas, we're like, well, where
is this going to help and whereis it going to hinder?
The danger of it is the samething as the danger of cheap
(10:43):
scanning, right?
Is that like, oh no, we're justgonna check it off the list
now.
And now we have a digitalcollection that has, but if it's
if you have something that isnot correctly or adequately
described and tagged, you're notgonna be able to find it.
Or the people you want to beable to find it are not gonna be
able to find it, in which case,why is it there?
Gary Pageau (11:02):
Right.
So you you gotta touch onsomething like the you know, the
cheap scan, right?
Like, you know, like let's sayyou've got a local historical
society and they decide they'regonna digitize their archive,
right?
And they, you know, buy uh HPor Canon scanner or Epson
scanner, and they just start.
I mean, have you come acrossthose situations where you have
to go back and just redoeverything?
(11:23):
All the time.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (11:24):
All the time.
Gary Pageau (11:25):
And the I just hope they haven't thrown them out,
right?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (11:29):
Right.
Yeah, it's huge.
Like, and that's I mean, that'sa huge danger of so I I would
think I would say that the vastmajority of what we do is
educational.
Like it's just trying to getpeople to understand like why
are you investing, like why andwhy is it worth the investment?
Like this is the only copy ofsomething you have, right?
You want to make sure it's donecorrectly.
So we we are constantlyeducating about like what does a
(11:52):
truly like a true digitalpreservation file look like?
How do you get it, right?
There is the internationalstandard that uh uh of like what
that means.
And if you just use a regularconsumer scanner, like uh you're
gonna get a JPEG or a PDF,right?
And then so it's very easy whenwe start talking to people
about you get a JPEG or a PDF,that's great.
(12:12):
If that's a reference, that'ssomething you want to throw in
social media or email to yoursister, fantastic.
But that's not preservationbecause when we blink, the web
is not going to render JPEGs orPDFs anymore, which were already
a compressed format.
I mean, well, it's a wholeother interview to get into the
the details of the bio formatitself, right?
But just talking about thatpiece of it, educating people
(12:34):
about and organization,nonprofit organizations,
especially, they'll usuallythey'll have gotten a grant 10
years ago to scan all of theirmagazines.
And now they have these crappyblack and white scans that are
completely compressed.
And I come in and say, like,well, how are you gonna explain
to your how are we gonna explainto our board that we spent you
know this money a few years agoand now we have to spend it to
redo it all over again?
(12:56):
It's a challenge.
Gary Pageau (12:57):
Now, do you ever run into situations where maybe
people are making judgment callson what to scan?
And and it's it's frustratingbecause they're like, Well, we
don't need that.
And you're like, well, from ahistorical perspective, you
might and you want, but youmight have people who are like,
Well, I want to save a couplebucks because you know, you're
you're quoting me 80,000 hours,and it's like, well, maybe we
(13:20):
just don't do this, but thatactually might be you know
important information.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (13:25):
So a part, yeah, I find it as a historian,
I find it incrediblyfrustrating.
The question I hear more thananything else that makes me want
to scream is well, what'simportant?
And I'm supposed to tell youthat, or you're supposed to
decide.
But it's another reason thathistory IT always begins with
that strategic plan, right?
Like we want to come in if theyif an organization wants to
make that decision, I don't loveit, but I understand it.
(13:47):
I understand that thesedecisions have to be made.
What I want is for all of thestakeholders to understand the
risk that's involved in doingthat.
Gary Pageau (13:55):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (13:55):
Right.
So, first of all, who the hellare we to say what's important
and what's going to be important20 years from now?
So for us, the imperative is soyou know, our our hashtag is
save history.
Like we we believe that it isimportant and it is in danger.
And one of the most dangerouspieces of it is this like like
(14:16):
just our general attitude, likewe are gonna choose what's
important, but we don't actuallyknow.
So that's this other advantageof bringing in an outside
perspective to say I understandwhy you think this is important
now, but you don't know what'sgoing to be valuable in the
future.
And here's some ways in whichit might be.
And you need someone to come inthat's worked with 300 other
(14:37):
types of organizations like thisto say, these are the ways in
which you can utilize all ofthis and justify this
undertaking.
Gary Pageau (14:45):
Do you work with organizations, let's say, once
you get their catalog digitizedand archived, do you work with
them so their current content isfuture-proof?
Because the challenge is, ofcourse, now many organizations
are generating quadrillion gigaquads or whatever of content and
they want that to be findableand historically preserved in
it.
(15:05):
And they're clearly, you know,if they're taking pictures at a
board dinner off their iPhone,you know, that's not an archive,
you know, that that that H E IC file is not archival.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (15:15):
Right.
But increasingly the thequality is off the charts.
Um, yes, what we do, and thenyou get into social media, the
the gamut of like what thecontent that's being produced
now.
So part of our strategicplanning is you know, that I
think that it goes in phases.
There's kind of everythingpre-21st century that has a
(15:36):
point, like anything that'spaper, 3D, 2D, like that's
actually the easiest componentof any strategic plan.
That's just like what's itgonna take to digitally preserve
it, to get our future-proofassets and to truly catalog it.
Gary Pageau (15:50):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (15:50):
Then there's like 2000 to 2012, the
worst of in terms of digitalpreservation.
Every possible kind of mediathat is completely obsolete, DVD
you can scratch and it's gone,hard drives all over the place,
zip disks.
So there's that.
Gary Pageau (16:06):
And then I haven't heard the phrase zip disk in a
long time.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:08):
So oh, I see them all the time.
Gary Pageau (16:10):
Yeah, they just went bad randomly.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:13):
Yeah, well, most things do eventually,
and then it's now, right?
So 20 2012 really to now, cloudcloud technology that's like a
more kind of consistentframework, but there's still the
same danger or people likeputting their content in all
these various things they thinkare gonna be there forever and
they're not you know from nowon, because now once you
preserve the history, where doyou go in the future?
Gary Pageau (16:34):
Because you've got to maintain that discipline
then.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:36):
And what and what we don't want to do is
say, like, you don't want tocome back to a company like
history IT in 20 years, be like,okay, now let's do these last
20 years.
So artists model, you gottalove that, right?
Gary Pageau (16:46):
Yeah.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:47):
Well, it's still no, because but like what
we care about most of thebusiness model is making sure
that history is preserved andused.
Right.
So when we build that strategicplan, we look at, okay, so now
on an annual basis, what isbeing produced that we want to
archive?
Let's build that in and let'snot make that every time we come
in the there's it's very rarethat someone's sole job is to do
(17:08):
all of this, right?
So it's okay, so who isproducing?
Are you producing publications?
You're producing annualreports, you're producing
photos, like all where is allthis content being generated?
Who is responsible for it?
And then what is the plan on aon a regular basis to get that
into the archive in a way thatis consistent?
Many times they do have anannual contract with us where
(17:29):
they're gonna send us X amountof content each year, you know,
and we're going to integrate itfor them.
More often they're doing it,and we're just kind of
monitoring for consistency.
Gary Pageau (17:39):
Obviously, like in my world, it's it's pictures and
increasingly video and allthat, but you've got all kinds
of other material that you haveto archive, right?
I mean, imagine what's thecraziest thing you've had to
argue that has kind of been anarchivable item.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (17:54):
Human skeleton.
I mean, craziest?
It's it's that is pretty crazy.
Gary Pageau (18:06):
So I is there is that was that like the founder
of the organization they wantedto produce.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (18:10):
Antelia.
It may or may not have beenJimmy Hoffa.
Um yeah, it's this the stuff,the stuff we see is is pretty
crazy.
But yes, I mean, every so oneof the things when we developed
our software, which is calledOdyssey Preservation, we wanted
to make it so that any type ofartifact, digital artifact, was
(18:34):
treated the same way in terms ofthe metadata, right?
So you can so we can ingest anytype of media, you know, and
but then from a metadataperspective, we see an image, a
digital asset of a plaque or abaseball, you know, or a human
head, um, the same as a letter,an email, a video, you know, a
(18:56):
video produced from a film reel,that it has a consistent
application across it becausewhen I click on Gary's name, I
want to see anywhere he's goingto appear in this digital
archive, whether that's a nameon a plaque or because he threw
this baseball or whatever it is.
Um it's my head.
It's your skull.
Yeah.
Yeah, which would make thispodcast way more like really
(19:18):
dark.
Gary Pageau (19:18):
It would go very dark.
So one of the concerns that isout there has got to be uh
deteriorating media, right?
Because we I mean, you know, inmy world with you know, people
doing consumer scanning andwhatnot, with the old, you know,
videotapes don't last forever.
Like you said, even you know,back in the day when people used
to burn their own CDs, youknow, people thought those
(19:40):
lasted for a long time, but theydon't.
Do you have any specialtechniques or processes you you
had when you come across thingsthat may be degraded to help to
help restore those?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (19:50):
Well, restoration is a tricky thing
and an expensive thing, right?
So when we're talking aboutwhen we create the strategic
plans, we look first andforemost at preservation
priorities, right?
And magnetic tape, any or orany kind of disk media, that's
at the top of the list.
So magnetic tape, that's filmreel, you know, VHS cassette,
(20:11):
that's beyond peak degradationright now, which means like as
we're speaking, your film isbecoming less and less
available.
Um I think that the things thatthat we emphasize with
organizations is it's a it'simperative to get it done, to
get it done professionally andto understand the formats that
are being produced for you.
So sending your VHS to someonewho's going to give you a DVD is
(20:34):
not preserving it because it'sa compressed format and that DVD
can get scratched, right?
At least you are gettinganother format.
The other thing that I think isit's a really hard pill for our
partners to swallow is thatoften if they don't even know
what's on that film reel, theystill need to invest in
preserving it because many ofthem are last play.
(20:56):
If you get like if any of thesereels are VHS, it's like, well,
we want to look at it anddetermine whether or not it's
important to preserve, right?
You want a professional doingthat because it might be the
only time you have to trulycapture it.
Are there secrets aboutrestoration?
And I that's like well beyondmy I'm just a figurehead.
But I think that understandinglike the risk of it's not as
(21:20):
simple as just like sending itout and you know and getting
something back.
Gary Pageau (21:24):
Yeah, I mean it's it's one of the things like I
said in the consumer space,right?
When you're dealing with, youknow, just normal VHS that
someone was maybe recording TVshows on, then they threw their
home movie on.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (21:34):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (21:35):
It's probably most well, if you can find a VHS
player at this point, it'sprobably unwatchable anyway.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (21:41):
It might be unwatchable.
We but the worry is that it itcould be the last time, right?
Or that that you're going to dofurther damage by trying to
watch it.
Gary Pageau (21:50):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (21:51):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (21:51):
So I imagine with some of the organizations that
you're working with, you mayeven be dealing with, I don't
know, what do you call thoselike uh wax recordings and all
kinds of like totally obsoleteformats?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (22:02):
Cylinders and yeah.
Gary Pageau (22:04):
Totally obsolete formats.
What's that like?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (22:06):
I mean, it's it's all the same.
The transfer of content fromone format into digital, yeah,
there are different tools, thereare different specialists, you
know.
So, like where we don't do thatin-house, we partner with
specialists who do that.
But at the end of the day, it'sall about like the true
strategy, is in how you treat itin terms of being able to find
it and utilize it.
(22:27):
Right.
Gary Pageau (22:27):
When you're looking, when you're talking to
someone about their strategy, isis how they could monetize it
part of it.
Because I imagine a lot of thatis they don't even know what
they could do with some of thisstuff.
For example, if you're talkingto like an like a fraternity
alumni society, right?
And you're digitizing thesorority archives from whatever,
(22:50):
you know, that's a hugefundraising opportunity,
perhaps.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (22:53):
Huge, yes.
So I think I mean, about 65% ofour business is
membership-based organizations,private schools, religious
organizations, fraternitysorority, junior league, you
name it.
And without question, when theystart to talk about like ROI,
the biggest thing for anyorganization of any type, but
particularly anything with analumni base, is going to be
(23:15):
alumni engagement, donorengagement, fundraising.
Um, it's not how many thingscan I print on a mug and sell,
right?
Gary Pageau (23:24):
Right.
Although there might be some ofthat, right?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (23:27):
Uh yeah, but not enough to pay for a
digital archive of billionitems, right?
Um, or or to continue to buildnot seeing value from it.
So without question,understanding that to be able to
give anyone who works in an inan audience engagement
environment.
So obviously with membershipbased, I think we work with NFL,
like the fan base, like beingable to, in a blink, serve up
(23:53):
content that is unique andspecific to any group I'm
talking to or any individual I'mtalking to.
Hey, like here is a photo ofyour mother, here's a photo of
all of your friends, hey, lookat this film clip from whatever.
Oh, you're really interested inthe philanthropic effort on
your campus in 1962.
Here it is.
Like being able to pull thatup, instantly, we start to look
(24:15):
at the value of that.
So like Pi Kappa AlphaFraternity, the first year they
worked with us, their annual dayof giving, they increased by
791%.
So you're looking not just atlike raising money for history,
but with like with that.
Gary Pageau (24:29):
Yeah, I mean, what you want to do is you want to
build connections, right?
So I imagine, like you said,you when you talked about 1962
that that what happened oncampus, maybe there was, you
know, you want to find out notonly what was what's happening
in the uh educationaldepartment, but maybe who was
speaking on campus that thatday.
And you uh connect those dotsthrough that.
(24:50):
And that's where the metadatacomes in.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (24:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Gary Pageau (24:54):
So what kind of uh materials are you getting?
Let's say let's stick with theeducational example, right?
You know, where you're dealingwith maybe uh imprecise sources
or you know, things like youknow, maybe like the college
newspaper or things like that totry and figure out what was
happening on campus in 1962 orsomething like that.
(25:16):
I mean, that's that's where Ithink a lot of your 80,000 hours
is just deciphering things fromback then.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (25:22):
Well, I think actually, I think that the
true goal of creating anaccessible digital archive is
making the evidence, making theprimary resource discoverable
and available, then letting theuser interpret it, right?
It's not my job to tell you themeaning of this, it's my job to
preserve that evidence in a waythat you can find it and make
(25:44):
sense of it.
If anything, people are gonnaquestion if it's like, oh now
I'm telling you what this means,right?
So I can say, you know, we canprovide, sure, we're historians,
we can provide historicalcontext.
We can say that like this iswhy this language is a certain
way.
Right.
Um, but what's reallyimperative is like this is the
evidence, like for whatever itis, this is a photograph that
(26:05):
was actually taken in 1962.
This is a, you know, this is anarticle from the campus
newspaper that was authored bythis person.
It's not just something that AIgenerated in order to make an
argument.
Gary Pageau (26:16):
Is there a way to allow?
I'm sure there is.
I'm just wondering if yoursystem provides for it, like to
allow annotation.
So let's say, for example, thatarticle in 1962 appears and I'm
still alive and I wrote that, Icould maybe add context to it.
And it would not behistorically accurate because
it's, you know, obviously arecollection, it's not
verifiable, but it's a way toannotate things to kind of build
(26:40):
that connection.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (26:42):
So in terms of like looking for user
feedback on the content, ourdigital museums provide ways to
do that that are not directly,and every every single
organization asks for it andsay, Do you want to manage that?
Gary Pageau (26:57):
Yeah.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (26:58):
If you want to manage it, our system
will do that.
Not one has said yes, right.
So it's a lovely idea, right?
And a lot of folks think thatthey can get around metadata
creation by crowdsourcing.
It's just, it's not realistic.
So we do get that feedback, andwe often will look.
So in the strategy of buildingand making digital assets
(27:20):
available, we're looking at likewhat information isn't known
and how can we use that to ouradvantage.
So in a sorority example, youknow, there might be a tag for
unidentified Kappa in the KappaKappa Gamma Museum, right?
And now at any point, we cansearch for I want all images, I
want all photographs or allvideo that have an unidentified
(27:42):
person from between this yearand this year on this campus.
And now I'm gonna use that toengage that alumni base.
Right.
Gary Pageau (27:50):
Identify this person.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (27:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know anyone in thesephotos?
And so that interface is more,you know, we're constantly
getting like, hey, that like yousay it says you're in this
room, but you're actually inthat room.
And I know that because I'mthat guy in the corner over
there.
But like we're you get that,and then you have a human, to
some extent an AI, but like ahuman like analyze that and
(28:12):
determine its validity and thenimplement it rather than just
asking.
I mean, at this point, we'reall familiar with patrols and
everything else that can happen.
Oh, yeah.
Gary Pageau (28:20):
Just people's memories aren't reliable.
I mean, human beings are, youknow, their memories are not
reliable.
Maybe that guy may think he'sin that room with that person,
but he may be remembering itdifferently entirely with
somebody else.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (28:32):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (28:33):
Yep.
Yeah, human beings are notreliable.
But what is reliable is historyIT.
And where can people go formore information about your
company and what is you?
Because I'm fascinated by this.
I'm I just think this is thecoolest thing.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (28:45):
I will thank you.
I I'd have to agree with you.
Um, so find us at uh historyit.com, our software is at
odysseypreservation.com or onall of the social net history IT
or hashtag save history.
Gary Pageau (28:58):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
It's great to meet you.
Like I said, this is you know,when I deal with a lot of people
in the consumer scanning worldand the archiving world, you
know, they would I I thinkthey're just gonna be fascinated
by the level of detail you haveto do with this sort of thing.
And maybe they'll want to reachout and partner with you or
something because I think it'suh I think preserving, you know,
history like this is atremendous uh avocation.
(29:21):
And I uh I appreciate you guystaking that on.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (29:25):
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thanks for the conversationtoday, too.
Erin Manning (29:29):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
www.theadpixels society.com.
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the
photoimaging industry's openingoutdoors.
And here's your host, GaryPageau.
The Dead Pixels Society Podcastis brought to you by Media
clip, Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society Podcast.
I'm your host, , and todaywe're joined by Kristen
Gwinn-Becker, who is the founderand CEO of History IT.
Dr.
Gwinn Becker is coming to usfrom Portland, Maine.
Hi, how are you today?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (00:32):
I'm doing great.
How are you, Gary?
Gary Pageau (00:34):
I'm doing awesome.
I'm doing awesome.
So I have been following thedigitization market for a long
time, but I'm unfamiliar withyour company.
Can you talk about how itstarted and what it is you do?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (00:47):
Yeah, I'd love to.
Always love to talk abouteverything we do.
So I founded History IT almost15 years ago, 2011.
We are software and servicesfor all things digital
preservation and access.
So we provide the range ofservices, kind of soup to nuts,
digital archives andcollections.
We have our own softwareplatform called Odyssey
Preservation, which is, youknow, metadata catalog
(01:09):
management, digital assetmanagement, and museum curation
and presentation software all inone.
So you name it.
So our services range fromstrategic planning for digital
collections, what's it going totake to get fully digital?
What does that mean for anorganization?
What are the steps to getthere?
We have our own preservationimaging labs.
And we do all of all of theimaging.
(01:30):
We have legions of people whowork on metadata creation as
well as then the curatorialcomponent.
Gary Pageau (01:36):
So what's your story in terms of starting this?
Because I find when people getinto the preservation business,
the archive, there's usually apersonal story.
There's usually something thatinspired them to want to
preserve history.
What's your story with that?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (01:51):
You mean we're not all in it for the
money and the glamour?
Gary Pageau (01:53):
Um the glamour of the archiving business.
It's it's true.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (01:59):
It's true.
Gary Pageau (02:02):
Right, where someone comes in and does an
archive.
Kristen Gwinn-Becke (02:05):
Archivists.
Yeah.
My career spans both technologyand humanities.
I was u when I started mycareer as a database and web
developer for what that was inthe 90s.
So dot com boom bust.
Gary Pageau (02:17):
You have the flashbacks now, right?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (02:19):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I went to San Franciscoin '99 and and then I made the
you know very traditional choiceof moving from technology into
doing a PhD in history.
Um very critically.
Which everyone does at somepoint.
Exactly.
Yes.
It's like I said, it was very,very crowded field.
But I never wanted to teach.
I just, you know, got aresearch fellowship and that I
(02:39):
couldn't say no to, and I lovedhistory, but no idea what I
wanted to do with it, right?
So I finished my doctorate andI had this unique set of skills,
right?
But in terms of being able tospeak technology and understand
all of the challenges um aroundlike the world of digital and
the world of the humanities.
Um and there were a lot, therestill are a lot.
(03:02):
Really, what I had had wasyears and of experience um in
graduate school working inarchives, right?
Hundreds and hundreds ofarchives.
And it was seen as this like,uh, well, I have a PhD, so I
have this secret access to thisplace that only archivists and
historians go.
And our role is to look at allthis material and then interpret
(03:22):
it for you, the rest of theworld, right?
Right.
Gary Pageau (03:24):
Almost like a gatekeeper mentality.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (03:27):
Yeah, and like, but that in the like
Google, you know, online searchage of 15 years ago and today
even it's not realistic, right?
That can't be the only model.
People go online and they wantinformation, right?
So I founded this company umoriginally because I wanted to
help organizations, our marketis organizations and companies,
(03:50):
and we're not consumer focused,help organizations better
understand that we live in atime when content is king and
they are sitting on a uniquetrove of content, right?
So and that their archive issomething that they need to
utilize um in a wide variety ofways.
So that's really it startedwith that, this kind of passion
(04:11):
for figuring out ways to helporganizations understand the
value of their history and notonly preserving it, but
utilizing it to really kind ofbolster all of their other
efforts.
Gary Pageau (04:22):
When you work with an organization, I mean, there's
literally thousands of themaround the country, right?
And you've got everyone fromlike your local Kiwanas club to
businesses to nonprofits and allof these organizations.
And the people that I talk toin the consumer scanning space,
um, who are kind of getting intothat market, it's like it's
like they're coming at it fromthe from the bottom end, they're
(04:43):
working with local companies,maybe a library or a historical
society or something, they arejust stunned by the lack of
cohesiveness to the to thematerials because the record
keeping from maybe 50 years agowas not very good.
Or now they've got maybe 3Dobjects that they need to scan
(05:04):
or preserve.
Right.
Is that what you're discoveringeven with big organizations?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (05:08):
Yeah, I mean, so we work with everything
from the local historicalsociety to every type of
membership-based organization.
We work with NFL teams.
So I mean, it really scans ifyou're or I like to say if
you're an organization olderthan five minutes and you can
draw value from better beingable to tell your story, your
ideal for working with us.
Your question about it kind ofbeing all over the map, it's
(05:30):
absolutely true.
The the kind of main pain pointI think we solve when we talk
to any organization, what wehear most is I'm overwhelmed.
No idea where to begin, I'moverwhelmed, what's important,
where to start.
It's a mess.
You name the condition, we'veseen it.
That's why we always start withstrategy.
History IT approach isstrategy, then digital
preservation, and then share,like then the utilization and
(05:51):
the ROI of that.
So creating a strategic plan iscritical for any type of
organization to figure out tofully own where they are.
Gary Pageau (06:01):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (06:01):
You know, which is some I work with some
organizations I go in at leasttwice a week.
I have to tell people who thinkthat their organization is, you
know, we're 60% digital.
You're like, you're at two,maybe.
Like, you know, that, or likewe've digitized, but what's
that?
What does that mean?
It means we have really crappyPDFs somewhere and we don't even
know what like what they are.
So beginning a strategic planin place and saying, this is
(06:23):
where we are, this is where allof our stakeholders want to get
to, what is the roadmap to getthere?
And and having that in placebecause as people like staff and
volunteer turnover, you know,comes, we don't we have various
people with their hands in likethe metadata, and that becomes a
mess.
So if we don't begin with astrategy, then it's going to
fall apart.
We've all had that happen.
(06:44):
We've all had digital projectsthat, you know, then the IT guy
goes and now what are we doing?
Gary Pageau (06:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, because I mean imagineyou have a lot of stakeholders
in these things that are justlike you said, they kind of have
their own little turf, right?
You've got the IT people whothink they know better.
Um, they may not have a PhD inhistory, but you know, they've
got the IT background.
Or you might have maybe thedevelopment organization that is
trying to fundraise off theseassets, trying to build the
(07:12):
history, and you know, they'vegot their agenda.
And, you know, so bringing allthose people together has got to
be not a technical challenge,but a human relations challenge.
That's where the problemprobably is.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (07:25):
Yeah.
And I think early in my career,that's I really saw myself as a
translator between like the ITside, the library side, the
archive side, the curatorialside, the fundraising and
development side, the executiveside, they all use the same
words, but they mean verydifferent things.
In a cataloging environment,that's really problematic,
(07:46):
right?
Because people use the wordsthat they understand, like the
normal language to search forwhat they're looking for.
So there's even just gettinginto the technical detail
component of that, but the humanpart of it too.
So a big part of our job inbuilding that strategy is
getting everyone on the samepage and building a plan that
meets all of those needs andisn't skewed to one side of it,
(08:08):
right?
Because then if IT owns it,librarians are going to be
frustrated.
If archives or libraries ownit, fundraisers are never going
to be able to use it.
Gary Pageau (08:18):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (08:18):
Because it's going to be cataloged in a
in a way that is not useful.
Gary Pageau (08:22):
The Dewey decimal system or whatever.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The Library of Congress subjectauthority, where they you have
to use the word dwelling forhouse or home.
It's just not realistic.
Gary Pageau (08:32):
And I even think like even words that you that
most normal people would thinkwould be obvious, like archive
probably has a completelydifferent meaning and depending
on who you're talking to.
Because like in the IT world,archive means storage.
It doesn't necessarily mean youaccess it.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (08:46):
Right.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
Gary Pageau (08:49):
So let's talk a little bit about the metadata
piece because I think that'ssort of interesting because
that's something that everyonekind of knows about and they're
familiar with, because you know,with uh you know, exit data and
things like that that peoplecan now manipulate on their even
on their phones and things.
There's a lot of apps for doingthat sort of thing.
Are there any AI tools that arehelping with that now?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (09:09):
Um it's the huge question in this space
right now, right?
Is what's the balance ofhelping versus hurting,
hindering where we're we'realready far behind, even in
trying to get folks up to speedand what metadata means and like
that metadata is the magic thatmakes it all happen, right?
If something isn't cataloged ortagged in ways that the group
(09:32):
that is acting needs to accessit, much less future users can
understand, it is pointless.
It is pointless.
Don't do it.
Like if you're not going tosignificantly invest in your
metadata and the strategy ofthat metadata, you're you are
wasting your time and money.
But it is the most uh involvedand expensive project.
Most of the projects we do area minimum of 80,000 hours just
(09:54):
in metadata.
Gary Pageau (09:55):
Hours?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (09:56):
Hours.
Gary Pageau (09:57):
Wow.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (09:58):
That's for a collection, maybe three, four
million items.
So AI can be a huge asset inlike in many other areas, right?
Absolutely, right, yeah, yeah.
Metadata is never done, nomatter how many tools you have,
right?
You have to continue to refineit and refine it.
And using AI smartly, like anyother approach, is going to make
(10:21):
a lot of that creation moreefficient, more consistent, but
it still needs the human review,right?
So it's this, it's the balanceof what was always like, well,
let's balance the humancomponent with the technology
component, and now we'rebringing in AI.
Like I said, in most otherareas, we're like, well, where
is this going to help and whereis it going to hinder?
The danger of it is the samething as the danger of cheap
(10:43):
scanning, right?
Is that like, oh no, we're justgonna check it off the list
now.
And now we have a digitalcollection that has, but if it's
if you have something that isnot correctly or adequately
described and tagged, you're notgonna be able to find it.
Or the people you want to beable to find it are not gonna be
able to find it, in which case,why is it there?
Gary Pageau (11:02):
Right.
So you you gotta touch onsomething like the you know, the
cheap scan, right?
Like, you know, like let's sayyou've got a local historical
society and they decide they'regonna digitize their archive,
right?
And they, you know, buy uh HPor Canon scanner or Epson
scanner, and they just start.
I mean, have you come acrossthose situations where you have
to go back and just redoeverything?
(11:23):
All the time.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (11:24):
All the time.
Gary Pageau (11:25):
And the I just hope they haven't thrown them out,
right?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (11:29):
Right.
Yeah, it's huge.
Like, and that's I mean, that'sa huge danger of so I I would
think I would say that the vastmajority of what we do is
educational.
Like it's just trying to getpeople to understand like why
are you investing, like why andwhy is it worth the investment?
Like this is the only copy ofsomething you have, right?
You want to make sure it's donecorrectly.
So we we are constantlyeducating about like what does a
(11:52):
truly like a true digitalpreservation file look like?
How do you get it, right?
There is the internationalstandard that uh uh of like what
that means.
And if you just use a regularconsumer scanner, like uh you're
gonna get a JPEG or a PDF,right?
And then so it's very easy whenwe start talking to people
about you get a JPEG or a PDF,that's great.
(12:12):
If that's a reference, that'ssomething you want to throw in
social media or email to yoursister, fantastic.
But that's not preservationbecause when we blink, the web
is not going to render JPEGs orPDFs anymore, which were already
a compressed format.
I mean, well, it's a wholeother interview to get into the
the details of the bio formatitself, right?
But just talking about thatpiece of it, educating people
(12:34):
about and organization,nonprofit organizations,
especially, they'll usuallythey'll have gotten a grant 10
years ago to scan all of theirmagazines.
And now they have these crappyblack and white scans that are
completely compressed.
And I come in and say, like,well, how are you gonna explain
to your how are we gonna explainto our board that we spent you
know this money a few years agoand now we have to spend it to
redo it all over again?
(12:56):
It's a challenge.
Gary Pageau (12:57):
Now, do you ever run into situations where maybe
people are making judgment callson what to scan?
And and it's it's frustratingbecause they're like, Well, we
don't need that.
And you're like, well, from ahistorical perspective, you
might and you want, but youmight have people who are like,
Well, I want to save a couplebucks because you know, you're
you're quoting me 80,000 hours,and it's like, well, maybe we
(13:20):
just don't do this, but thatactually might be you know
important information.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (13:25):
So a part, yeah, I find it as a historian,
I find it incrediblyfrustrating.
The question I hear more thananything else that makes me want
to scream is well, what'simportant?
And I'm supposed to tell youthat, or you're supposed to
decide.
But it's another reason thathistory IT always begins with
that strategic plan, right?
Like we want to come in if theyif an organization wants to
make that decision, I don't loveit, but I understand it.
(13:47):
I understand that thesedecisions have to be made.
What I want is for all of thestakeholders to understand the
risk that's involved in doingthat.
Gary Pageau (13:55):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (13:55):
Right.
So, first of all, who the hellare we to say what's important
and what's going to be important20 years from now?
So for us, the imperative is soyou know, our our hashtag is
save history.
Like we we believe that it isimportant and it is in danger.
And one of the most dangerouspieces of it is this like like
(14:16):
just our general attitude, likewe are gonna choose what's
important, but we don't actuallyknow.
So that's this other advantageof bringing in an outside
perspective to say I understandwhy you think this is important
now, but you don't know what'sgoing to be valuable in the
future.
And here's some ways in whichit might be.
And you need someone to come inthat's worked with 300 other
(14:37):
types of organizations like thisto say, these are the ways in
which you can utilize all ofthis and justify this
undertaking.
Gary Pageau (14:45):
Do you work with organizations, let's say, once
you get their catalog digitizedand archived, do you work with
them so their current content isfuture-proof?
Because the challenge is, ofcourse, now many organizations
are generating quadrillion gigaquads or whatever of content and
they want that to be findableand historically preserved in
it.
(15:05):
And they're clearly, you know,if they're taking pictures at a
board dinner off their iPhone,you know, that's not an archive,
you know, that that that H E IC file is not archival.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (15:15):
Right.
But increasingly the thequality is off the charts.
Um, yes, what we do, and thenyou get into social media, the
the gamut of like what thecontent that's being produced
now.
So part of our strategicplanning is you know, that I
think that it goes in phases.
There's kind of everythingpre-21st century that has a
(15:36):
point, like anything that'spaper, 3D, 2D, like that's
actually the easiest componentof any strategic plan.
That's just like what's itgonna take to digitally preserve
it, to get our future-proofassets and to truly catalog it.
Gary Pageau (15:50):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (15:50):
Then there's like 2000 to 2012, the
worst of in terms of digitalpreservation.
Every possible kind of mediathat is completely obsolete, DVD
you can scratch and it's gone,hard drives all over the place,
zip disks.
So there's that.
Gary Pageau (16:06):
And then I haven't heard the phrase zip disk in a
long time.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:08):
So oh, I see them all the time.
Gary Pageau (16:10):
Yeah, they just went bad randomly.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:13):
Yeah, well, most things do eventually,
and then it's now, right?
So 20 2012 really to now, cloudcloud technology that's like a
more kind of consistentframework, but there's still the
same danger or people likeputting their content in all
these various things they thinkare gonna be there forever and
they're not you know from nowon, because now once you
preserve the history, where doyou go in the future?
Gary Pageau (16:34):
Because you've got to maintain that discipline
then.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:36):
And what and what we don't want to do is
say, like, you don't want tocome back to a company like
history IT in 20 years, be like,okay, now let's do these last
20 years.
So artists model, you gottalove that, right?
Gary Pageau (16:46):
Yeah.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (16:47):
Well, it's still no, because but like what
we care about most of thebusiness model is making sure
that history is preserved andused.
Right.
So when we build that strategicplan, we look at, okay, so now
on an annual basis, what isbeing produced that we want to
archive?
Let's build that in and let'snot make that every time we come
in the there's it's very rarethat someone's sole job is to do
(17:08):
all of this, right?
So it's okay, so who isproducing?
Are you producing publications?
You're producing annualreports, you're producing
photos, like all where is allthis content being generated?
Who is responsible for it?
And then what is the plan on aon a regular basis to get that
into the archive in a way thatis consistent?
Many times they do have anannual contract with us where
(17:29):
they're gonna send us X amountof content each year, you know,
and we're going to integrate itfor them.
More often they're doing it,and we're just kind of
monitoring for consistency.
Gary Pageau (17:39):
Obviously, like in my world, it's it's pictures and
increasingly video and allthat, but you've got all kinds
of other material that you haveto archive, right?
I mean, imagine what's thecraziest thing you've had to
argue that has kind of been anarchivable item.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (17:54):
Human skeleton.
I mean, craziest?
It's it's that is pretty crazy.
Gary Pageau (18:06):
So I is there is that was that like the founder
of the organization they wantedto produce.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (18:10):
Antelia.
It may or may not have beenJimmy Hoffa.
Um yeah, it's this the stuff,the stuff we see is is pretty
crazy.
But yes, I mean, every so oneof the things when we developed
our software, which is calledOdyssey Preservation, we wanted
to make it so that any type ofartifact, digital artifact, was
(18:34):
treated the same way in terms ofthe metadata, right?
So you can so we can ingest anytype of media, you know, and
but then from a metadataperspective, we see an image, a
digital asset of a plaque or abaseball, you know, or a human
head, um, the same as a letter,an email, a video, you know, a
(18:56):
video produced from a film reel,that it has a consistent
application across it becausewhen I click on Gary's name, I
want to see anywhere he's goingto appear in this digital
archive, whether that's a nameon a plaque or because he threw
this baseball or whatever it is.
Um it's my head.
It's your skull.
Yeah.
Yeah, which would make thispodcast way more like really
(19:18):
dark.
Gary Pageau (19:18):
It would go very dark.
So one of the concerns that isout there has got to be uh
deteriorating media, right?
Because we I mean, you know, inmy world with you know, people
doing consumer scanning andwhatnot, with the old, you know,
videotapes don't last forever.
Like you said, even you know,back in the day when people used
to burn their own CDs, youknow, people thought those
(19:40):
lasted for a long time, but theydon't.
Do you have any specialtechniques or processes you you
had when you come across thingsthat may be degraded to help to
help restore those?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (19:50):
Well, restoration is a tricky thing
and an expensive thing, right?
So when we're talking aboutwhen we create the strategic
plans, we look first andforemost at preservation
priorities, right?
And magnetic tape, any or orany kind of disk media, that's
at the top of the list.
So magnetic tape, that's filmreel, you know, VHS cassette,
(20:11):
that's beyond peak degradationright now, which means like as
we're speaking, your film isbecoming less and less
available.
Um I think that the things thatthat we emphasize with
organizations is it's a it'simperative to get it done, to
get it done professionally andto understand the formats that
are being produced for you.
So sending your VHS to someonewho's going to give you a DVD is
(20:34):
not preserving it because it'sa compressed format and that DVD
can get scratched, right?
At least you are gettinganother format.
The other thing that I think isit's a really hard pill for our
partners to swallow is thatoften if they don't even know
what's on that film reel, theystill need to invest in
preserving it because many ofthem are last play.
(20:56):
If you get like if any of thesereels are VHS, it's like, well,
we want to look at it anddetermine whether or not it's
important to preserve, right?
You want a professional doingthat because it might be the
only time you have to trulycapture it.
Are there secrets aboutrestoration?
And I that's like well beyondmy I'm just a figurehead.
But I think that understandinglike the risk of it's not as
(21:20):
simple as just like sending itout and you know and getting
something back.
Gary Pageau (21:24):
Yeah, I mean it's it's one of the things like I
said in the consumer space,right?
When you're dealing with, youknow, just normal VHS that
someone was maybe recording TVshows on, then they threw their
home movie on.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (21:34):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (21:35):
It's probably most well, if you can find a VHS
player at this point, it'sprobably unwatchable anyway.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (21:41):
It might be unwatchable.
We but the worry is that it itcould be the last time, right?
Or that that you're going to dofurther damage by trying to
watch it.
Gary Pageau (21:50):
Right.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (21:51):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (21:51):
So I imagine with some of the organizations that
you're working with, you mayeven be dealing with, I don't
know, what do you call thoselike uh wax recordings and all
kinds of like totally obsoleteformats?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (22:02):
Cylinders and yeah.
Gary Pageau (22:04):
Totally obsolete formats.
What's that like?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (22:06):
I mean, it's it's all the same.
The transfer of content fromone format into digital, yeah,
there are different tools, thereare different specialists, you
know.
So, like where we don't do thatin-house, we partner with
specialists who do that.
But at the end of the day, it'sall about like the true
strategy, is in how you treat itin terms of being able to find
it and utilize it.
(22:27):
Right.
Gary Pageau (22:27):
When you're looking, when you're talking to
someone about their strategy, isis how they could monetize it
part of it.
Because I imagine a lot of thatis they don't even know what
they could do with some of thisstuff.
For example, if you're talkingto like an like a fraternity
alumni society, right?
And you're digitizing thesorority archives from whatever,
(22:50):
you know, that's a hugefundraising opportunity,
perhaps.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (22:53):
Huge, yes.
So I think I mean, about 65% ofour business is
membership-based organizations,private schools, religious
organizations, fraternitysorority, junior league, you
name it.
And without question, when theystart to talk about like ROI,
the biggest thing for anyorganization of any type, but
particularly anything with analumni base, is going to be
(23:15):
alumni engagement, donorengagement, fundraising.
Um, it's not how many thingscan I print on a mug and sell,
right?
Gary Pageau (23:24):
Right.
Although there might be some ofthat, right?
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (23:27):
Uh yeah, but not enough to pay for a
digital archive of billionitems, right?
Um, or or to continue to buildnot seeing value from it.
So without question,understanding that to be able to
give anyone who works in an inan audience engagement
environment.
So obviously with membershipbased, I think we work with NFL,
like the fan base, like beingable to, in a blink, serve up
(23:53):
content that is unique andspecific to any group I'm
talking to or any individual I'mtalking to.
Hey, like here is a photo ofyour mother, here's a photo of
all of your friends, hey, lookat this film clip from whatever.
Oh, you're really interested inthe philanthropic effort on
your campus in 1962.
Here it is.
Like being able to pull thatup, instantly, we start to look
(24:15):
at the value of that.
So like Pi Kappa AlphaFraternity, the first year they
worked with us, their annual dayof giving, they increased by
791%.
So you're looking not just atlike raising money for history,
but with like with that.
Gary Pageau (24:29):
Yeah, I mean, what you want to do is you want to
build connections, right?
So I imagine, like you said,you when you talked about 1962
that that what happened oncampus, maybe there was, you
know, you want to find out notonly what was what's happening
in the uh educationaldepartment, but maybe who was
speaking on campus that thatday.
And you uh connect those dotsthrough that.
(24:50):
And that's where the metadatacomes in.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (24:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Gary Pageau (24:54):
So what kind of uh materials are you getting?
Let's say let's stick with theeducational example, right?
You know, where you're dealingwith maybe uh imprecise sources
or you know, things like youknow, maybe like the college
newspaper or things like that totry and figure out what was
happening on campus in 1962 orsomething like that.
(25:16):
I mean, that's that's where Ithink a lot of your 80,000 hours
is just deciphering things fromback then.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (25:22):
Well, I think actually, I think that the
true goal of creating anaccessible digital archive is
making the evidence, making theprimary resource discoverable
and available, then letting theuser interpret it, right?
It's not my job to tell you themeaning of this, it's my job to
preserve that evidence in a waythat you can find it and make
(25:44):
sense of it.
If anything, people are gonnaquestion if it's like, oh now
I'm telling you what this means,right?
So I can say, you know, we canprovide, sure, we're historians,
we can provide historicalcontext.
We can say that like this iswhy this language is a certain
way.
Right.
Um, but what's reallyimperative is like this is the
evidence, like for whatever itis, this is a photograph that
(26:05):
was actually taken in 1962.
This is a, you know, this is anarticle from the campus
newspaper that was authored bythis person.
It's not just something that AIgenerated in order to make an
argument.
Gary Pageau (26:16):
Is there a way to allow?
I'm sure there is.
I'm just wondering if yoursystem provides for it, like to
allow annotation.
So let's say, for example, thatarticle in 1962 appears and I'm
still alive and I wrote that, Icould maybe add context to it.
And it would not behistorically accurate because
it's, you know, obviously arecollection, it's not
verifiable, but it's a way toannotate things to kind of build
(26:40):
that connection.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (26:42):
So in terms of like looking for user
feedback on the content, ourdigital museums provide ways to
do that that are not directly,and every every single
organization asks for it andsay, Do you want to manage that?
Gary Pageau (26:57):
Yeah.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (26:58):
If you want to manage it, our system
will do that.
Not one has said yes, right.
So it's a lovely idea, right?
And a lot of folks think thatthey can get around metadata
creation by crowdsourcing.
It's just, it's not realistic.
So we do get that feedback, andwe often will look.
So in the strategy of buildingand making digital assets
(27:20):
available, we're looking at likewhat information isn't known
and how can we use that to ouradvantage.
So in a sorority example, youknow, there might be a tag for
unidentified Kappa in the KappaKappa Gamma Museum, right?
And now at any point, we cansearch for I want all images, I
want all photographs or allvideo that have an unidentified
(27:42):
person from between this yearand this year on this campus.
And now I'm gonna use that toengage that alumni base.
Right.
Gary Pageau (27:50):
Identify this person.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (27:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know anyone in thesephotos?
And so that interface is more,you know, we're constantly
getting like, hey, that like yousay it says you're in this
room, but you're actually inthat room.
And I know that because I'mthat guy in the corner over
there.
But like we're you get that,and then you have a human, to
some extent an AI, but like ahuman like analyze that and
(28:12):
determine its validity and thenimplement it rather than just
asking.
I mean, at this point, we'reall familiar with patrols and
everything else that can happen.
Oh, yeah.
Gary Pageau (28:20):
Just people's memories aren't reliable.
I mean, human beings are, youknow, their memories are not
reliable.
Maybe that guy may think he'sin that room with that person,
but he may be remembering itdifferently entirely with
somebody else.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (28:32):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (28:33):
Yep.
Yeah, human beings are notreliable.
But what is reliable is historyIT.
And where can people go formore information about your
company and what is you?
Because I'm fascinated by this.
I'm I just think this is thecoolest thing.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (28:45):
I will thank you.
I I'd have to agree with you.
Um, so find us at uh historyit.com, our software is at
odysseypreservation.com or onall of the social net history IT
or hashtag save history.
Gary Pageau (28:58):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
It's great to meet you.
Like I said, this is you know,when I deal with a lot of people
in the consumer scanning worldand the archiving world, you
know, they would I I thinkthey're just gonna be fascinated
by the level of detail you haveto do with this sort of thing.
And maybe they'll want to reachout and partner with you or
something because I think it'suh I think preserving, you know,
history like this is atremendous uh avocation.
(29:21):
And I uh I appreciate you guystaking that on.
Kristen Gwinn-Becker (29:25):
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thanks for the conversationtoday, too.
Erin Manning (29:29):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
www.theadpixels society.com.
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