May 29, 2025 • 34 mins
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What does true leadership look like in today's business landscape? Dr. Kevin Mays reveals it begins not with controlling others, but with mastering yourself. His journey from aerospace engineering student to leadership consultant offers profound insights on building organizations that thrive beyond their founders.
Dr. Mays challenges conventional wisdom about leadership, arguing that before you can effectively lead others, you must first understand your thought patterns and intentions. This self-awareness forms the foundation for creating environments where people feel empowered to bring their best selves to work.
Many business owners fall victim to "founder syndrome," where their tight grip on every aspect of operations prevents growth and stifles talented employees. As Dr. Mays explains, "Too many leaders focus on the next quarter at the expense of the human beings actually doing the work." The result? Disengagement, high turnover of top talent, and ultimately, a business that depends entirely on its owner.
For those looking toward retirement or succession planning, Dr. Mays offers practical advice: Document your processes, clarify roles and responsibilities, develop your team members, and most importantly - let go of control. "Your business should be working for you," he emphasizes, "not you working for your business."
The conversation explores how business owners can shift from being "in the weeds" to taking a strategic position at the "top of the mountain," guiding the organization's future direction while empowering others to handle day-to-day operations. This transition creates not just a more fulfilling leadership experience, but a more valuable, sellable business.
Whether you're struggling with micromanagement tendencies, planning your exit strategy, or simply wanting to create a more engaged workplace, Dr. Mays' insights offer a roadmap to building an organization that works even when you're not present. Visit MaysLeadership.com to connect with Dr. M
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your Gary Pageau, and todaywe're joined by Dr Kevin Mays
of Mays Leadership, and he'sjust down the road in Rockford,
Michigan.
Hello, Dr Mays, how are youtoday?
Or can I call you Kevin?
Are you that kind of guy youcan?
Dr. Kevin Mays (00:34):
call me Kevin, absolutely, and it's just great
to talk to a fellow MichiganderFantastic.
Gary Pageau (00:41):
We all got to stick together in today's world world
, but we're not here to talkabout being a Michigander, which
is a great thing.
We're going to talk aboutsomething that's even better,
which is leadership and thevarious forms of leadership and
how leadership can drive yourbusiness and beyond.
So, first of all, when I, whenI have a guest that talks about
a topic like that, I always liketo ask them what is your
(01:03):
definition of leadership in yourcontext?
What do you mean by that?
Dr. Kevin Mays (01:07):
for me, the foundational first step is this
idea that before you can eventhink about leading others, you
have to lead yourself.
So leadership at a core levelis about thinking with conscious
intention and behaving in a waythat's aligned with a deeper
(01:28):
vision of how you want to showup and the influence you want to
have.
So it's really about how youinfluence.
But it starts at home,internally, we spend so much of
our time learning how to manageand manipulate the world around
us.
Our education system is basedaround how you manage other
things.
External leadership at a corelevel is a very internal process
(01:50):
.
It involves, you know, requiresself-awareness and intention,
presence and vision.
With those four elements youcan begin to lead, but it starts
with understanding how yourmind works.
Gary Pageau (02:02):
And so how did you get into the leadership game?
Were you like 10 or 12 and yousaid I really want to be a
doctor of leadership studies, orwhat was your background
leading up to this is thequestion.
Dr. Kevin Mays (02:17):
I'm actually a recovering psychologist, okay,
and I did that work for yearsand I found myself in that role
Originally.
I started out in aerospace andI was studying aerospace
engineering and I was designingpaint spray booth systems for
the car companies.
When I was young, went in tostudy aeronautical engineering
and I remember that I loved it.
The school counselor told meyou know, you probably won't
(02:39):
like this aerospace business.
It's a lot of specific,meticulous details and that's
not really how your personalityseems to work according to the
tests.
So, but being a 17 year old kidwho nobody's going to tell him
anything, I said forget that.
I'm going to go do what I wantto do.
I'm going to study aerospace,and you know what?
I'm going to be an airlinepilot so I can travel the world.
(03:00):
And I remember very clearly Iwas learning to fly Cessnas,
bored as all get up withpracticing straight and level
flight.
So I would get this airplaneand all these funky upside down
positions.
And Cessnas are made to beinnately stable.
If you let go of the wheel,it's going to correct itself.
Well, as a 17 year old who kneweverything, I overcorrected,
came out of the spin, I was inupside down and had to actually
(03:24):
power all the way through ituntil at one point I was aimed
straight at the ground, hittingthe never exceed speed, pulling
the wheel back, trying to liftthe nose and the horns going off
the stall horn and the blood'srushing out of my head and life
flashed before my eyes and I hadthis realization Kevin, this is
not the career path for you.
(03:47):
I ran with an airplane, sold mycar, bought a motorcycle and
took off across the country andI ended up just stretching out
my 20s for 20 years and I justreally traveled around the
country and kept going back toschool, and back to school, and
back to school, until I waseventually running organizations
and studying the stuff I was.
You know, I went from apsychologist leading the
(04:08):
organizations and then workedfor consulting firms and then
ultimately I was like anexecutive consultant for a large
bank, and it just things seemto fall that way.
So it was never like apredetermined plan, but it was
based on a lot of the, a lot ofthe hard fought wisdom I gained
along the way of how not to dothings.
(04:29):
Don't put your sets on anupside-down tailspin, right, it
does not get you Well, if youlive through it, it might help
you open up and do some thingsdifferently.
Now, was that a solo flight ordid you have an instructor?
That was solo?
No, that was solo.
It was my first solo flights.
One of the first things theflight instructor showed me when
we went out was how to do thesestalls and spins.
(04:50):
I'm like, oh, this is fun.
So when I was soloing, that'sall I would do.
I'd go out there and get theairplane upside down and you
know, these things have gravityfeed fuel tanks, so they're not
designed to be upside down.
The engine will stall, but Ididn't care.
You're not going to tell meanything.
Well, yeah, when you're 17 yearsold, you know everything, right
, a near death experience willchange you, and this is the
(05:11):
thing I find with leaders todayis that we get stuck in knowing
that we're right, doing the samething we've always done, and
wondering why we're not gettingthe next result.
So what traditional, likefounder syndrome?
Right, somebody starts abusiness and they're the expert,
they're the ones who know howto run the business and so it's
always their way.
They bring great talent in, butthe talent feels the brightest
(05:32):
people they brought in arejumping ship because the founder
really refuses to allow thestaff to make decisions and
actually exercise their wisdom.
Gary Pageau (05:54):
So when you talk about leadership like that, I
think a key component ofleadership from the discussions
I've had with various people onthe podcast over the years is it
really comes down to a trustissue.
I think it comes down to youknow.
Like you said, you know better,or I know better, right as the
leader, so you just need tofollow my lead, when in reality
(06:16):
could be the other way around.
You have to trust the peoplewho you've hired, who have the
expertise to actually show youor give you the information you
need to make decisions, which iswhat a leader does, and make
decisions not necessarily dothings.
Dr. Kevin Mays (06:32):
Well, and I love it.
Too many leaders get stuck inthe doing things and it really
comes back to the originalquestion you asked what is
leadership?
A it starts within.
You have to lead yourself first.
And B in my mind, it's reallyabout creating an environment of
engagement.
That is when people come andthey bring their A game.
You're going to create aphenomenal organization.
I worked with one leader who wassuch a visionary I remember
(06:53):
this.
He had this vision of 20 yearsand he became a good confidant.
I became a good confidant ofhis he told me one day.
He said, kevin, you know, Iwork with a bunch of idiots.
I said well, why'd you hire him?
He said they weren't idiots.
When I hired him.
Huh, this guy.
So he thought everybody was anidiot.
And guess how they were showingup?
(07:14):
They were disengaged, theydidn't care, they feel
unvalidated, they weren'tbringing their A game problems,
they were just waiting to betold what to do.
And guess what?
You ended up with A mediocreorganization, not one that was
thriving.
That's the hardest thing forleaders and founders is to be
able to get out of their own wayand create an environment that
actually elevates others.
(07:36):
The hard thing is that theymake their decisions.
Others will make differentdecisions and make decisions
differently.
How do you learn to allowyourself to let go of control to
make decisions differently?
How do you learn to allowyourself to let go of control?
Gary Pageau (07:45):
But on the other hand, you also have to be
plugged in enough to know whenthey are making a bad decision.
They may have to step in andcorrect, but I think allowing
people to make decisions givesyou the validation to make
corrections right Because you'vegiven them a lot of positive
feedback, given a lot ofpositive instructions.
So when you do have to comeback and say, you know, bob, I
(08:08):
wouldn't sell that like that.
Dr. Kevin Mays (08:10):
Let's try it this way.
Gary Pageau (08:11):
You've got, you've got background to do that.
Dr. Kevin Mays (08:14):
In my mind too, it's not only about giving that
kind of direction, which is, ofcourse, useful sometimes, but
asking the right questions right.
What do you think the impact isif you do that?
What are we missing here?
Gary Pageau (08:24):
OK, so frame it as a question, so maybe you get it.
Dr. Kevin Mays (08:28):
So then they own it because I have seen I've
worked with great organizationswhere the executive team comes
together and they're brilliantand they make these great
organizational change strategiesbecause there's a group think
and they all agree.
There's a group think and theyall agree.
They all buy in and they allpush this decision through and
it has horrendous negativeconsequences for the
(08:50):
organization that they never sawcoming.
The most brilliant decision forany organization is worthless
if nobody buys in and, evenworse, it's detrimental if
people push against it, even ifit's the right thing for the
organization.
So for me that goes back to thedefinition.
Well, how do you get people tobuy in and bring their hearts
and take ownership and takeaccountability and take
(09:11):
responsibility and it's not yourshow, but they feel like they
have skin in the game.
Then you're going to elevateyour organization and create
something that's sellable ortransferable to the next
generation.
Gary Pageau (09:23):
Right and that's one of the things I want to talk
about, because that is asignificant portion of my
audience are the folks who, youknow they've been in business
for a while and they're kind ofcoming to the point where it's
like what am I going to do withthis thing?
And it's like there may not befamily, just bring it in.
Erin Manning (09:38):
They may have family.
Gary Pageau (09:39):
But maybe they're not the right people or, you
know, maybe don't need any otherright employees.
How do they even start thatprocess of evaluating, passing
on the business?
Where do you think they shouldstart?
Dr. Kevin Mays (09:51):
Well, again, for me it 100% goes back in.
Looking at ourselves, I thinkof one manufacturer I currently
work with.
They've owned this place for 30years and their hand is so
tightly gripped on the wheelthat they haven't built any
bench strength and are notletting go to let the next level
, the successors, come in andlearn.
(10:12):
So of course you have to havesome basic systems and processes
.
It can't be knowledge in thehead of the few wise elders.
You got to codify it, write itdown, train people up to it,
back off and become a mentor,become a coach in your
organization and allow others tomake those mistakes and to make
(10:32):
decisions and then to think itthrough in a way that helps them
to learn how to step into thatrole.
But I see too many leaders whoare afraid of that and they end
up this organization that couldhave a high value instead just
becomes worth the amount of theequipment they have and they
pull it out and sell theequipment and the business never
(10:54):
continues on Huge costdifferential there.
But one is about getting tasksdone and doing the actual work
and the other is about managingthe human beings.
It's a totally different skillset.
Right, I'll tell you what ifyou can learn how to manage the
human beings?
You can take the raw equipmentand you can multiply it
(11:14):
exponentially, the value.
Gary Pageau (11:16):
So why is it that people struggle with that so
much?
Because I mean, you know, I'vebeen reading this in business
books for ages.
I mean this is not.
I mean I'm sure what you do iswonderful and I highly encourage
everyone to.
You know, check outmaizeleadershipcom and you know
and all that.
But why is this such achallenge for people to do this?
(11:37):
Is it because we've sort ofbeen brought up in this world of
your work?
Life is your work life and yourlife life is your life and you
kind of keep those separate?
Dr. Kevin Mays (11:46):
Yeah, and that's a great observation and I, you
know, for me, I love it.
That's maybe the old modelright, the industrial revolution
.
You have people talk about thework life balance, a bunch of
who, we.
You have one life right.
How do you make decisions?
And that's what I love aboutthe next generation.
People say, oh, they're lazy,they don't want to work.
(12:07):
No, maybe they've got a valuethat's actually aligned
appropriately.
It's got a value that'sactually aligned appropriately.
My dad worked for General Motorsfor 34 years.
People don't do that anymore.
The organization doesn't haveyour best interest anymore.
You have to look out foryourself.
The old day was my dad's day.
You work 35 years at the carcompanies.
You retire and die and that'sit.
And you're a good worker,you're a cog in the machine.
(12:29):
Well, that's not the way itworks anymore.
And now the thing I find too isthat when you have business
owners or people who really holdit dear to them, it becomes an
extension of them.
It's almost like their own ego.
They become defensive againstit.
They don't hear as well others'ideas because, hey, they've
done it this way 30 years.
I know what.
(12:50):
I know.
You're not going to come inhere with your new ideas and
tell me how to change things,and so they can shut things down
.
They create defensiveness intheir organization and almost
like an impenetrability.
People don't feel like they'reheard, they're listened to,
their perception matters, and sothen what happens?
You get that disengagement.
People just go along, do whatthey're told and you're not
(13:12):
really teeing the organizationup to have the most successful
second life and it becomes back.
I think it's a mental game.
That's why I say lead yourselffirst to understand what are the
patterns of attachment that wehave in our mind and how do you
see your business as anextension of yourself?
And how much are you doublingdown to do the same thing you've
(13:33):
always done and it's notgetting you the result you want
and you think the problem is theorganization.
If the organization is notgetting the result you want and
you're the leader the problem isyou.
Gary Pageau (13:44):
But on the other hand, the flip side of that is,
if the organization isphenomenally successful, it's
not because of you either.
Dr. Kevin Mays (13:52):
Well, I like to say that, but I'll tell you what
.
I have worked with so manyorganizations and I have never,
ever seen an organization thatwas dysfunctional at the ground
level, that didn't have a highlevel of dysfunction on the
executive team.
They didn't communicate welltogether, they weren't aligned,
they weren't on the same team.
Conversely, if I see anorganization that's dialed in
(14:14):
printing money and doing thingswell, I can always trace it back
to the top.
In fact, I worked recently witha foundry.
Now, this is the great thing Iworked with.
I had a bunch of companypresidents in the room I was
working with and one guy was.
I had known all of them exceptone guy.
He ran this foundry.
Now, often foundry folks aresalt of the earth.
Right, it's the second oldestindustry or second oldest
(14:36):
profession out there foundryworkers.
Don't ask me what the first is.
So they're out there and thisguy's a gruff looking guy.
But everybody told me the samething His foundry's printing
money.
And I said, well, what is ithe's doing?
I expected to see somebodywho's command and control.
I get him in the room.
When we start talking aboutbest practices.
(14:56):
He starts mentioning peoplelike Jim Rohn and Nightingale
and all of these classicmotivational the first wave of
motivational speakers in the 50sand 60s and people who really
talk about how you manage yourconscious intention to influence
others, influence friends andwin.
(15:16):
What's the saying?
Influence friends and managepeople, or whatever you know,
but anyway it came back to howhe managed, how he showed up,
and he wasn't just singularlyfocused on the bottom line.
You got to know your metrics.
But if you only focus on yourmetrics like I see, too many
businesses do they focus on thenext quarter and the next
(15:36):
quarter and they do anything tomake the next quarter's metrics
look good at the expense of thehuman beings who are actually
doing the work.
They end up knocking the legsout from underneath themselves.
Gary Pageau (15:45):
Because that is one of the things you know I see
with various businesses is, youknow, you see sort of this drive
to you know, reach optimalefficiency right by removing
people and removing certainfunctions within a thing.
And then they realize you'velost not just the human being,
but maybe you've lost all theyears of experience they had and
(16:07):
why they did it right yeah.
Dr. Kevin Mays (16:10):
You lose all the experience, you lose why they
did it and it goes back to again.
I think the industry thatyou're representing is a
beautiful model of what happenswhen we become so attached to
doing things a particular way.
What happened to polaroid?
Where'd they go?
Gary Pageau (16:25):
well, it was kind of funny.
They're still around.
Actually, they got back.
I mean they went down yes andthen they, and then bankruptcy
and all the other stuff, andthen they've come back and
they've got a new owner andthey're actually building quite
a niche.
But it's interesting because ittook that pain to do that, to
kind of refocus them on wheretheir value is.
(16:47):
You know, and Kodak did thesame thing, right?
Kodak, yes, and whereas, youknow, right now they're doing
very well actually.
But by realizing they're not.
You know the world changed.
They needed to adapt.
Dr. Kevin Mays (17:01):
Some adapted, some didn't.
That's the thing, and it's nodifferent whether it's
organization.
Organization is amalgamation ofthe individuals.
It's a manifestation of theleader's brain.
If the leader is adapting,you're going to stay at the
forefront.
It's a manifestation of theleader's brain.
If the leader is adapting,you're going to stay at the
forefront.
And right now technology isevolving quickly.
You have to be able to findthat balance between keeping a
structure and consistency butalso being adaptive, and if you
(17:25):
just focus all your eggs in onebasket or the other, you're
going to underserve yourself.
Gary Pageau (17:30):
Well, part of it is too trying to figure out what
it is you're really good at.
Like your friend who did thefoundry right.
He understood functionally thattheir business is to transform
things from one thing to another.
Right, it's a manufacturingprocess, right?
They didn't try to become amarketing company.
Didn't try to do these otherthings.
They really understood, you know, and they honed themselves on
(17:52):
that process.
There's a a where a lot ofbusiness, I think, screw up from
a leadership standpoint is.
You get people who kind of getthe process down and then they
decided, well, we're reallygoing to be about the brand,
right, or something like that,or they go on an acquisition
spree outside of their industry,because it's like, you know,
we've got all this cash and theinvestors think we need to do
(18:13):
something.
Dr. Kevin Mays (18:15):
It becomes a shiny object quest, a quest for
the next shiny object, rightExactly.
Gary Pageau (18:20):
Exactly, and it's, it's, it's, it's a challenge.
I think.
For some of us, success canbreed stupidity.
I think in a lot of ways.
Dr. Kevin Mays (18:26):
Isn't it right.
We lose sight of what got us,and it's a hard thing because
there's certain plateaus as abusiness grows.
Right, there's differentchallenges at different revenue
points, different things youneed to focus on at a given
point.
Whether it's automating systemsor building an executive
leadership team or whatever itis marketing sales there's
always a different challengedepending on where you are in
(18:48):
the growth cycle.
But so many times I find thatwhen businesses become flush,
when they're successful, thenthey start to.
They undercut themselves.
They start.
I worked with one aerospacecompany that wanted to grow.
They acquired 30 smallerbusinesses, 30.
So they were great.
They were one of the biggest.
Well, each business had its ownculture, had its own ERP system
(19:12):
, its own technology platform.
Now they're going to decide tomake them all have the same
technology and it became a wholedifferent ball of wax.
They just totally lost the ball.
They lost their eye, they tooktheir eye off the ball and it
didn't help them.
Gary Pageau (19:26):
Well, look what just happened with Boeing, right
?
I mean, that's a good examplewhere you know they were known
for having the most reliableaircraft there were.
Right, then they buy.
Erin Manning (19:34):
McDonald's.
Gary Pageau (19:34):
Douglas.
And all of a sudden the beancounters get involved and you
start shaving things here andthere.
And then you got, you know,doors blowing off on jets.
Dr. Kevin Mays (19:42):
Who was it?
Neil Armstrong, floating aroundthe earth, saying he had this
realization that he was in acapsule in space that was won by
the lowest bidder.
Not necessarily what you want,and this is the hard thing.
It'll destroy your niche andit's a race to the bottom and
it's a race to bankruptcy.
So I like what you're saying.
You're in a very niche marketand I think the more you
articulate what your niche isand have a specific, very
(20:05):
concrete avatar who's the idealclient and market to that person
and fix that person's problem,you can go a lot further than
trying to the shotgun approachwhere everything to everybody.
Gary Pageau (20:17):
Yeah, and that level of focus is very difficult
you know, as a leader becauseand part of that is because you
know, once you do have atechnology platform.
I mean, I see this all the time,for example, with people in our
industry who maybe buy acertain kind of printer and they
can make a certain width ofproduct on that printer and then
(20:40):
they start playing with othersubstrates and start playing
with other things and they said,well, what else can we do with
this thing?
And then they kind of lose alittle bit of focus, in the
sense that they kind of forgotwhy they bought the thing in the
first place.
Because they got tied up in thisthing where we need to maximize
or just find cool things to dowith it.
Because they're not maybethinking about the market so
(21:00):
much as they're thinking abouttheir production capability.
Dr. Kevin Mays (21:03):
Well, this is the thing too that I find so
often with creative mindedindividuals.
They start a business thatrequires that creativity, love,
that process, and then thebusiness starts to take off and
they still have that creativemindset.
Well, that's very differentthan running a business, and in
fact I've worked with businessowners who they've scaled their
(21:23):
business, did a beautiful job,and I mean beautiful to the
extent that most people who havekids have their products in
their house.
Right, I would say vastly 80%.
If you have a small child, youhave the elf on their products
in their house.
Right, I would say vastly 80%.
If you have a small child, youhave the elf on the shelf in
your house.
But then what happens?
I have this creative group ofpeople who want to design things
and don't want to spend theirtime focusing on the business,
(21:45):
and it becomes this A it's a tugof war, it's a real push and
pull and being able to get folksinto that seat who can be the
implementers and who can drivethe structure in the
organization.
So if you're the creativeminded one, you can stay in that
space and have somebody who cankeep you grounded.
Otherwise, if you're a creativeminded person and you're trying
(22:06):
to grow a business.
It's too often happens that wedo.
We lose focus, we go to thenext thing and the next thing,
and it's a process of continualinnovation and invention, and
the market has no idea whatwe're about.
Gary Pageau (22:21):
And the other challenge you have with that as
leaders is you may have someonewho excels in their position,
right?
Maybe they're like so they're agreat designer, right, and so
naturally you think, well,everybody wants to be promoted,
so I'm going to make that persona department head of all the
other designers and then prettysoon, everyone's miserable.
Dr. Kevin Mays (22:40):
Isn't that amazing how that works.
We make this assumption that,because you're good at doing
your job and doing the task,that you're going to be good at
managing people, and it's such atotally different skill set and
one that's too often overlooked.
I see executives to be good atmanaging people, and it's such a
totally different skill set andone that's too often overlooked
.
Right, I see executives who aregood at looking at the
spreadsheet and the bottom lineand the strategic plan, and they
(23:02):
forget about that pesky littlething, the human.
Erin Manning (23:06):
Every company is nothing more than a human
organization.
Dr. Kevin Mays (23:08):
A human institution, it's for humans, by
humans, to a human organization.
A human institution, it's forhumans, by humans, to a human
end period.
The commodity you might happento produce could be anything.
It could be automobiles, itcould be photovoltaic cells, it
could be whatever you do in yourspecific niche, right?
(23:30):
I mean whether it's creatingphotos or art or what have you?
Sure, but that's what I love.
The infrastructure of everybusiness is the same, and unless
you understand that, it's soeasy to get caught up and
twisted up and miss what youneed to have in place to create,
in my mind, a sellableorganization.
I mean, that's the goldstandard, right?
(23:51):
Not that you have to sell it,but you can retire from it and
ultimately, if you're going tobe a business owner, that means
you have a business that workswithout you and then you can do
any role you want in thebusiness.
Gary Pageau (24:00):
And that's part of the thing you need to think
about is you know, when youstart the business or take over
the business or whatever, wheredo you want it to be?
Right at the end, right, theold Stephen Covey, begin with
the end in mind sort of idea,because I've run into many
people in the photo industry whohave small retail stores or
whatever and they've beenrunning for 34 years and it's
(24:20):
just not sellable, it's not in asellable state Because, like
you said earlier, you knowpeople have got it all in their
head or they don't have theprocesses down or they're just,
you know, doing it the waythey've always been doing it.
So what are like three thingsthat, if you wanted to make your
business sellable, you shouldlook at?
And we're assuming that theperson has their act together.
(24:44):
You know we're not doing anemergency heart replacement on
this thing.
It's going well.
But what are the three thingsyou think that they ought to
look at?
Dr. Kevin Mays (24:53):
Yeah, this is the fun stuff.
When I have business owners whoare hungry, there's some great
stuff they can do that can havea huge impact out of the gate.
I think it starts with thefirst thing we said manage
yourself.
How are you to look at andhonestly ask yourself, how are
you spending your time as aleader?
How should you be spending yourtime?
(25:13):
Too many leaders findthemselves doing the $10 an hour
jobs.
Sweep up the floor, it's themom and pop shop and they do
everything.
Well, that's great, but it'stime to think.
I think of it in terms of amountain, right, what is your
position on the mountain?
What's your station?
If you're I mean if you're thethe leader, you need to be at
the top of the mountain, whichmeans you have the law, the
(25:34):
furthest view, the moststrategic thought, right, and
you're not down in the weedsgetting stuff done, the
day-to-day stuff.
Now, of course, small shopowners.
You need to manage both, butthe first step is that mindset,
to think like a owner.
Then, when you do that, tostart to, I like to draw out an
org chart, even if it's only youto think of.
(25:55):
What are the different rolesyou're doing?
Right?
You have operations, you havesales, you have finance, okay,
and then to start to actuallycreate an and without names, but
by position Right, to draw thatorg chart by position Right and
then and then all the way down,maybe the level below that, and
then the neat thing is you cango in and add the names.
Oh, I'm doing three quarters ofthis stuff and Bill over here
(26:17):
is doing some of this.
But then from that you can askyourself okay, now you have an
org chart for the current state.
Measure that against an orgchart you designed for the
future.
Are you growing your business orsimply trying to keep it where
it's at and create it in asustainable way that you can get
out of it and it'll maintainitself?
So it's not a job you own, buta business you own.
(26:37):
They're two different things.
If you're trying to grow it, Imean, then there should be a
difference between the currentorg chart and the future, right.
But I think when you start tosee it visually oh, here's where
we're going in the org chartthen you can start to hire well,
create systems and processesfor those key roles, maybe two
layers down, that you can hirepeople into.
So there's a method that theyknow best practice.
(27:01):
Here's what the store looks likeat the end of the day.
There's pictures, there's abook they can go through.
Here's how you greet customers.
Here's how you greet the phonewhen the phone rings.
Here's how all of this stuffright.
Here's your brand guide thebasic systems and processes.
Start to get those in place ata low level and then you can
start to feed people, hirepeople at a low level to do that
(27:22):
and eventually train them upinto the higher level positions
and to become the director ofsales, the director of marketing
, the director of finance, thedirector of operations or
whatever.
It is right.
Maybe it's one person doing allof that, that's fine.
But having some clarity aroundwhat those different roles are,
it's hard because as an owner,we wear all the hats and don't
even think about it.
(27:42):
We don't separate it, exactlybeing able to separate it.
Think like, if you're a GM,what are all the different
departments?
Okay, well, you have differentdepartments, even if you're the
one doing it all.
To understand those departments, start to write down what are
the best practices.
Get the knowledge out of yourhead, the tribal knowledge.
Get it written down.
Even if nowadays, with AItechnology, you can speak into
your phone and then have ittranscribed.
(28:05):
In no time, without a lot ofwork, you can start to have a
sheet that says here's how weclose this door, here's how we
do X, y and Z right, and thenyou can really train people to
consistently keep that standard.
That'll allow you to be moreand more at the top of the
mountain, strategically focusingon where you're going, because
(28:26):
most business owners myexperience is they're so busy
running around getting stuffdone in operations they don't
have a strategic focus, theydon't have a strategic plan,
they don't know where they'regoing in three years or five
years.
They're just happy they're inthe field they love day to day.
But suddenly here you are, 60years old, thinking it's time to
get out.
What do I do?
Gary Pageau (28:46):
Well, and what's the response of somebody who
says but I don't have time forthat, Dr.
Kevin?
Dr. Kevin Mays (28:52):
I don't have time for that.
That's brilliant, right?
You don't have time?
Great, okay, then what you'regoing to do is take all your
equipment when it's time toretire and part it all out and
sell all the individualequipment and that's your
retirement.
No, it's about priority.
It's about recognizing that youhave convinced yourself over
(29:13):
the course of your existence inyour job that what you must do
to be important, to besuccessful, is do the daily
tasks.
And that goes back to youmanaging yourself.
You must change how you'rethinking.
You don't have time.
You don't have time not to doit.
If you keep doing what you'redoing, your business will
implode eventually.
(29:35):
Right, if you are, you'recommitted to having this
business be an institutionbeyond you.
To go beyond you, you have toenter into a business owner
mindset, which means you muststart to get people fed in, even
at a low level, right, I mean,I know businesses.
They get interns and your job,intern, is to start to document
(29:57):
the processes.
I knew people who ran a copyshop, and it was a low level guy
just started documenting allthe processes.
Right, I knew people who ran acopy shop, and it was a low
level guy just starteddocumenting all the processes
and guess what end of ninemonths.
He had a book with everyprocess in it.
They could bring anybody in andthey could do it.
Now, that's the hard thing fora business owner.
He wanted to be special.
It's our business, nobody elsecould do it like us.
(30:17):
Yeah, exactly, well, you'regonna.
You, you're going to shootyourself in the foot.
Gary Pageau (30:20):
The reality is a lot of people can do it.
You got to let go Because youwant that.
You want it to be replicable.
Yes, right, you want that.
Dr. Kevin Mays (30:29):
And that's what you do as a business owner now.
But you do it and you know it'sa high level of quality and
that high standard, yourreputation, you, you feel good
about that, but nobody will doit as good as me, right?
That's what mom always said Ifyou want it done right, you do
it yourself.
Well, guess what you got?
(30:52):
To dial down mom's voice inyour head and train others.
That's leadership.
Elevate others to be fullyengaged, to be interested, to be
excited to see the vision, notjust to see the task in front of
them.
You know, not to be just abricklayer who's laying one
brick at a time, but to be thebricklayer who has this
perception that they're buildinga cathedral to God and they're
worshiping every time they lay abrick.
That's different.
You're going to have peoplebringing their heart to the game
.
Gary Pageau (31:11):
Now I like what you said earlier about the mountain
thing, because you know thereality is is you can't see
anything from the peak of themountain if the base of the
mountain isn't solid.
Dr. Kevin Mays (31:23):
Right, I mean, that's a good analogy and but
this is the thing I find so manytimes.
I work with a couple businessowners who have 200 million
dollar businesses and they knowwe talk about that mountain
analogy.
What is the job description ofwhere you should be above the
tree line?
What does that look like?
And once they have that targetdialed in of what that role
(31:45):
should look like, then itbecomes very clear.
Every time they drop down intooperations they can see it very
clearly Like, oh, look what I'mdoing now and guess what?
They start to upset the applecart every time they do because
there's somebody whose role isto be in that operations
position.
A card every time they dobecause there's somebody whose
role is to be in that operationsposition and now they're
dropping down because of themistake they see somebody else
made or that internal voice wantit done right, do it yourself.
(32:07):
So they jump down, skip a level, do it themselves, and it just
creates this cluster ofcommunication in the
organization.
So it is about that trusting.
You talked about being able totrust, being able to allow
people to make a mistake and tonot do it your way and to learn
and to grow, to have that openmindset and to be again not only
(32:27):
a business owner but a mentorand a coach, and to elevate
people up, because, ultimately,the business isn't something
that you should be working for.
The business should be workingfor you.
If you're a business owner inthe true sense of the word, you
should be listening to thisright now down in the Virgin
islands, and the business iscreating for you right now and
(32:49):
you can come back when you wantto and you know what the
business is all dialed in andpeople are there.
You have good management team,good leaders.
They're handling it.
You're the owner.
It's not an appendage that'sconnected to you, because once
you learn how to run onebusiness, my God, you can have
multiple.
You can have franchises.
That's how franchising works,but it's about changing the
(33:09):
mindset.
Gary Pageau (33:12):
So, speaking of changing minds and hearts, where
can people go for moreinformation about the maze
leadership and you and yourcompany?
Dr. Kevin Mays (33:21):
Oh, yes, I love answering any questions.
So of course, I have a website,mazeleadershipcom, that's
M-A-Y-S leadershipcom.
Send me an email, kevin, atmazeleadershipcom, and we have a
lot of materials that areavailable for business owners.
One of the programs I have is afive step to grow your business
.
So I have an evaluationbusiness owners can do to start
(33:43):
to get dialed in.
I'm all about offeringresources to be helpful.
In fact, it's that's my mantraat a deep level.
I believe.
Hey, if I'm just helpful,life's going to work out Right.
So I've got a bunch of freestuff available.
Come check it out.
Go to the website, check it out.
If there's anything that youneed, I have resources,
materials I'll send your way.
And hey, if anybody'sinterested in having someone to
(34:04):
help them scale, grow thatbusiness that works without them
.
That is that's the reason I'mon earth, other than being a
good husband and father.
Gary Pageau (34:15):
Awesome.
Well, it was great to see you,dr Mays, and to talk with you
and connect with anotherMichigander in this great state
of Michigan.
Dr. Kevin Mays (34:24):
I know, I know I'm going to finish with go blue
.
Oh, I know you're in Lansing.
Gary Pageau (34:29):
Hey, listen it's fine.
Go blue, go green, go white, goMichigan.
Right, there you go.
All right, great to talk to you, take care it to you.
Dr. Kevin Mays (34:37):
Take care, it's such a pleasure.
Be well, thank you.
Erin Manning (34:40):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your Gary Pageau, and todaywe're joined by Dr Kevin Mays
of Mays Leadership, and he'sjust down the road in Rockford,
Michigan.
Hello, Dr Mays, how are youtoday?
Or can I call you Kevin?
Are you that kind of guy youcan?
Dr. Kevin Mays (00:34):
call me Kevin, absolutely, and it's just great
to talk to a fellow MichiganderFantastic.
Gary Pageau (00:41):
We all got to stick together in today's world world
, but we're not here to talkabout being a Michigander, which
is a great thing.
We're going to talk aboutsomething that's even better,
which is leadership and thevarious forms of leadership and
how leadership can drive yourbusiness and beyond.
So, first of all, when I, whenI have a guest that talks about
a topic like that, I always liketo ask them what is your
(01:03):
definition of leadership in yourcontext?
What do you mean by that?
Dr. Kevin Mays (01:07):
for me, the foundational first step is this
idea that before you can eventhink about leading others, you
have to lead yourself.
So leadership at a core levelis about thinking with conscious
intention and behaving in a waythat's aligned with a deeper
(01:28):
vision of how you want to showup and the influence you want to
have.
So it's really about how youinfluence.
But it starts at home,internally, we spend so much of
our time learning how to manageand manipulate the world around
us.
Our education system is basedaround how you manage other
things.
External leadership at a corelevel is a very internal process
(01:50):
.
It involves, you know, requiresself-awareness and intention,
presence and vision.
With those four elements youcan begin to lead, but it starts
with understanding how yourmind works.
Gary Pageau (02:02):
And so how did you get into the leadership game?
Were you like 10 or 12 and yousaid I really want to be a
doctor of leadership studies, orwhat was your background
leading up to this is thequestion.
Dr. Kevin Mays (02:17):
I'm actually a recovering psychologist, okay,
and I did that work for yearsand I found myself in that role
Originally.
I started out in aerospace andI was studying aerospace
engineering and I was designingpaint spray booth systems for
the car companies.
When I was young, went in tostudy aeronautical engineering
and I remember that I loved it.
The school counselor told meyou know, you probably won't
(02:39):
like this aerospace business.
It's a lot of specific,meticulous details and that's
not really how your personalityseems to work according to the
tests.
So, but being a 17 year old kidwho nobody's going to tell him
anything, I said forget that.
I'm going to go do what I wantto do.
I'm going to study aerospace,and you know what?
I'm going to be an airlinepilot so I can travel the world.
(03:00):
And I remember very clearly Iwas learning to fly Cessnas,
bored as all get up withpracticing straight and level
flight.
So I would get this airplaneand all these funky upside down
positions.
And Cessnas are made to beinnately stable.
If you let go of the wheel,it's going to correct itself.
Well, as a 17 year old who kneweverything, I overcorrected,
came out of the spin, I was inupside down and had to actually
(03:24):
power all the way through ituntil at one point I was aimed
straight at the ground, hittingthe never exceed speed, pulling
the wheel back, trying to liftthe nose and the horns going off
the stall horn and the blood'srushing out of my head and life
flashed before my eyes and I hadthis realization Kevin, this is
not the career path for you.
(03:47):
I ran with an airplane, sold mycar, bought a motorcycle and
took off across the country andI ended up just stretching out
my 20s for 20 years and I justreally traveled around the
country and kept going back toschool, and back to school, and
back to school, until I waseventually running organizations
and studying the stuff I was.
You know, I went from apsychologist leading the
(04:08):
organizations and then workedfor consulting firms and then
ultimately I was like anexecutive consultant for a large
bank, and it just things seemto fall that way.
So it was never like apredetermined plan, but it was
based on a lot of the, a lot ofthe hard fought wisdom I gained
along the way of how not to dothings.
(04:29):
Don't put your sets on anupside-down tailspin, right, it
does not get you Well, if youlive through it, it might help
you open up and do some thingsdifferently.
Now, was that a solo flight ordid you have an instructor?
That was solo?
No, that was solo.
It was my first solo flights.
One of the first things theflight instructor showed me when
we went out was how to do thesestalls and spins.
(04:50):
I'm like, oh, this is fun.
So when I was soloing, that'sall I would do.
I'd go out there and get theairplane upside down and you
know, these things have gravityfeed fuel tanks, so they're not
designed to be upside down.
The engine will stall, but Ididn't care.
You're not going to tell meanything.
Well, yeah, when you're 17 yearsold, you know everything, right
, a near death experience willchange you, and this is the
(05:11):
thing I find with leaders todayis that we get stuck in knowing
that we're right, doing the samething we've always done, and
wondering why we're not gettingthe next result.
So what traditional, likefounder syndrome?
Right, somebody starts abusiness and they're the expert,
they're the ones who know howto run the business and so it's
always their way.
They bring great talent in, butthe talent feels the brightest
(05:32):
people they brought in arejumping ship because the founder
really refuses to allow thestaff to make decisions and
actually exercise their wisdom.
Gary Pageau (05:54):
So when you talk about leadership like that, I
think a key component ofleadership from the discussions
I've had with various people onthe podcast over the years is it
really comes down to a trustissue.
I think it comes down to youknow.
Like you said, you know better,or I know better, right as the
leader, so you just need tofollow my lead, when in reality
(06:16):
could be the other way around.
You have to trust the peoplewho you've hired, who have the
expertise to actually show youor give you the information you
need to make decisions, which iswhat a leader does, and make
decisions not necessarily dothings.
Dr. Kevin Mays (06:32):
Well, and I love it.
Too many leaders get stuck inthe doing things and it really
comes back to the originalquestion you asked what is
leadership?
A it starts within.
You have to lead yourself first.
And B in my mind, it's reallyabout creating an environment of
engagement.
That is when people come andthey bring their A game.
You're going to create aphenomenal organization.
I worked with one leader who wassuch a visionary I remember
(06:53):
this.
He had this vision of 20 yearsand he became a good confidant.
I became a good confidant ofhis he told me one day.
He said, kevin, you know, Iwork with a bunch of idiots.
I said well, why'd you hire him?
He said they weren't idiots.
When I hired him.
Huh, this guy.
So he thought everybody was anidiot.
And guess how they were showingup?
(07:14):
They were disengaged, theydidn't care, they feel
unvalidated, they weren'tbringing their A game problems,
they were just waiting to betold what to do.
And guess what?
You ended up with A mediocreorganization, not one that was
thriving.
That's the hardest thing forleaders and founders is to be
able to get out of their own wayand create an environment that
actually elevates others.
(07:36):
The hard thing is that theymake their decisions.
Others will make differentdecisions and make decisions
differently.
How do you learn to allowyourself to let go of control to
make decisions differently?
How do you learn to allowyourself to let go of control?
Gary Pageau (07:45):
But on the other hand, you also have to be
plugged in enough to know whenthey are making a bad decision.
They may have to step in andcorrect, but I think allowing
people to make decisions givesyou the validation to make
corrections right Because you'vegiven them a lot of positive
feedback, given a lot ofpositive instructions.
So when you do have to comeback and say, you know, bob, I
(08:08):
wouldn't sell that like that.
Dr. Kevin Mays (08:10):
Let's try it this way.
Gary Pageau (08:11):
You've got, you've got background to do that.
Dr. Kevin Mays (08:14):
In my mind too, it's not only about giving that
kind of direction, which is, ofcourse, useful sometimes, but
asking the right questions right.
What do you think the impact isif you do that?
What are we missing here?
Gary Pageau (08:24):
OK, so frame it as a question, so maybe you get it.
Dr. Kevin Mays (08:28):
So then they own it because I have seen I've
worked with great organizationswhere the executive team comes
together and they're brilliantand they make these great
organizational change strategiesbecause there's a group think
and they all agree.
There's a group think and theyall agree.
They all buy in and they allpush this decision through and
it has horrendous negativeconsequences for the
(08:50):
organization that they never sawcoming.
The most brilliant decision forany organization is worthless
if nobody buys in and, evenworse, it's detrimental if
people push against it, even ifit's the right thing for the
organization.
So for me that goes back to thedefinition.
Well, how do you get people tobuy in and bring their hearts
and take ownership and takeaccountability and take
(09:11):
responsibility and it's not yourshow, but they feel like they
have skin in the game.
Then you're going to elevateyour organization and create
something that's sellable ortransferable to the next
generation.
Gary Pageau (09:23):
Right and that's one of the things I want to talk
about, because that is asignificant portion of my
audience are the folks who, youknow they've been in business
for a while and they're kind ofcoming to the point where it's
like what am I going to do withthis thing?
And it's like there may not befamily, just bring it in.
Erin Manning (09:38):
They may have family.
Gary Pageau (09:39):
But maybe they're not the right people or, you
know, maybe don't need any otherright employees.
How do they even start thatprocess of evaluating, passing
on the business?
Where do you think they shouldstart?
Dr. Kevin Mays (09:51):
Well, again, for me it 100% goes back in.
Looking at ourselves, I thinkof one manufacturer I currently
work with.
They've owned this place for 30years and their hand is so
tightly gripped on the wheelthat they haven't built any
bench strength and are notletting go to let the next level
, the successors, come in andlearn.
(10:12):
So of course you have to havesome basic systems and processes
.
It can't be knowledge in thehead of the few wise elders.
You got to codify it, write itdown, train people up to it,
back off and become a mentor,become a coach in your
organization and allow others tomake those mistakes and to make
(10:32):
decisions and then to think itthrough in a way that helps them
to learn how to step into thatrole.
But I see too many leaders whoare afraid of that and they end
up this organization that couldhave a high value instead just
becomes worth the amount of theequipment they have and they
pull it out and sell theequipment and the business never
(10:54):
continues on Huge costdifferential there.
But one is about getting tasksdone and doing the actual work
and the other is about managingthe human beings.
It's a totally different skillset.
Right, I'll tell you what ifyou can learn how to manage the
human beings?
You can take the raw equipmentand you can multiply it
(11:14):
exponentially, the value.
Gary Pageau (11:16):
So why is it that people struggle with that so
much?
Because I mean, you know, I'vebeen reading this in business
books for ages.
I mean this is not.
I mean I'm sure what you do iswonderful and I highly encourage
everyone to.
You know, check outmaizeleadershipcom and you know
and all that.
But why is this such achallenge for people to do this?
(11:37):
Is it because we've sort ofbeen brought up in this world of
your work?
Life is your work life and yourlife life is your life and you
kind of keep those separate?
Dr. Kevin Mays (11:46):
Yeah, and that's a great observation and I, you
know, for me, I love it.
That's maybe the old modelright, the industrial revolution
.
You have people talk about thework life balance, a bunch of
who, we.
You have one life right.
How do you make decisions?
And that's what I love aboutthe next generation.
People say, oh, they're lazy,they don't want to work.
(12:07):
No, maybe they've got a valuethat's actually aligned
appropriately.
It's got a value that'sactually aligned appropriately.
My dad worked for General Motorsfor 34 years.
People don't do that anymore.
The organization doesn't haveyour best interest anymore.
You have to look out foryourself.
The old day was my dad's day.
You work 35 years at the carcompanies.
You retire and die and that'sit.
And you're a good worker,you're a cog in the machine.
(12:29):
Well, that's not the way itworks anymore.
And now the thing I find too isthat when you have business
owners or people who really holdit dear to them, it becomes an
extension of them.
It's almost like their own ego.
They become defensive againstit.
They don't hear as well others'ideas because, hey, they've
done it this way 30 years.
I know what.
(12:50):
I know.
You're not going to come inhere with your new ideas and
tell me how to change things,and so they can shut things down
.
They create defensiveness intheir organization and almost
like an impenetrability.
People don't feel like they'reheard, they're listened to,
their perception matters, and sothen what happens?
You get that disengagement.
People just go along, do whatthey're told and you're not
(13:12):
really teeing the organizationup to have the most successful
second life and it becomes back.
I think it's a mental game.
That's why I say lead yourselffirst to understand what are the
patterns of attachment that wehave in our mind and how do you
see your business as anextension of yourself?
And how much are you doublingdown to do the same thing you've
(13:33):
always done and it's notgetting you the result you want
and you think the problem is theorganization.
If the organization is notgetting the result you want and
you're the leader the problem isyou.
Gary Pageau (13:44):
But on the other hand, the flip side of that is,
if the organization isphenomenally successful, it's
not because of you either.
Dr. Kevin Mays (13:52):
Well, I like to say that, but I'll tell you what
.
I have worked with so manyorganizations and I have never,
ever seen an organization thatwas dysfunctional at the ground
level, that didn't have a highlevel of dysfunction on the
executive team.
They didn't communicate welltogether, they weren't aligned,
they weren't on the same team.
Conversely, if I see anorganization that's dialed in
(14:14):
printing money and doing thingswell, I can always trace it back
to the top.
In fact, I worked recently witha foundry.
Now, this is the great thing Iworked with.
I had a bunch of companypresidents in the room I was
working with and one guy was.
I had known all of them exceptone guy.
He ran this foundry.
Now, often foundry folks aresalt of the earth.
Right, it's the second oldestindustry or second oldest
(14:36):
profession out there foundryworkers.
Don't ask me what the first is.
So they're out there and thisguy's a gruff looking guy.
But everybody told me the samething His foundry's printing
money.
And I said, well, what is ithe's doing?
I expected to see somebodywho's command and control.
I get him in the room.
When we start talking aboutbest practices.
(14:56):
He starts mentioning peoplelike Jim Rohn and Nightingale
and all of these classicmotivational the first wave of
motivational speakers in the 50sand 60s and people who really
talk about how you manage yourconscious intention to influence
others, influence friends andwin.
(15:16):
What's the saying?
Influence friends and managepeople, or whatever you know,
but anyway it came back to howhe managed, how he showed up,
and he wasn't just singularlyfocused on the bottom line.
You got to know your metrics.
But if you only focus on yourmetrics like I see, too many
businesses do they focus on thenext quarter and the next
(15:36):
quarter and they do anything tomake the next quarter's metrics
look good at the expense of thehuman beings who are actually
doing the work.
They end up knocking the legsout from underneath themselves.
Gary Pageau (15:45):
Because that is one of the things you know I see
with various businesses is, youknow, you see sort of this drive
to you know, reach optimalefficiency right by removing
people and removing certainfunctions within a thing.
And then they realize you'velost not just the human being,
but maybe you've lost all theyears of experience they had and
(16:07):
why they did it right yeah.
Dr. Kevin Mays (16:10):
You lose all the experience, you lose why they
did it and it goes back to again.
I think the industry thatyou're representing is a
beautiful model of what happenswhen we become so attached to
doing things a particular way.
What happened to polaroid?
Where'd they go?
Gary Pageau (16:25):
well, it was kind of funny.
They're still around.
Actually, they got back.
I mean they went down yes andthen they, and then bankruptcy
and all the other stuff, andthen they've come back and
they've got a new owner andthey're actually building quite
a niche.
But it's interesting because ittook that pain to do that, to
kind of refocus them on wheretheir value is.
(16:47):
You know, and Kodak did thesame thing, right?
Kodak, yes, and whereas, youknow, right now they're doing
very well actually.
But by realizing they're not.
You know the world changed.
They needed to adapt.
Dr. Kevin Mays (17:01):
Some adapted, some didn't.
That's the thing, and it's nodifferent whether it's
organization.
Organization is amalgamation ofthe individuals.
It's a manifestation of theleader's brain.
If the leader is adapting,you're going to stay at the
forefront.
It's a manifestation of theleader's brain.
If the leader is adapting,you're going to stay at the
forefront.
And right now technology isevolving quickly.
You have to be able to findthat balance between keeping a
structure and consistency butalso being adaptive, and if you
(17:25):
just focus all your eggs in onebasket or the other, you're
going to underserve yourself.
Gary Pageau (17:30):
Well, part of it is too trying to figure out what
it is you're really good at.
Like your friend who did thefoundry right.
He understood functionally thattheir business is to transform
things from one thing to another.
Right, it's a manufacturingprocess, right?
They didn't try to become amarketing company.
Didn't try to do these otherthings.
They really understood, you know, and they honed themselves on
(17:52):
that process.
There's a a where a lot ofbusiness, I think, screw up from
a leadership standpoint is.
You get people who kind of getthe process down and then they
decided, well, we're reallygoing to be about the brand,
right, or something like that,or they go on an acquisition
spree outside of their industry,because it's like, you know,
we've got all this cash and theinvestors think we need to do
(18:13):
something.
Dr. Kevin Mays (18:15):
It becomes a shiny object quest, a quest for
the next shiny object, rightExactly.
Gary Pageau (18:20):
Exactly, and it's, it's, it's, it's a challenge.
I think.
For some of us, success canbreed stupidity.
I think in a lot of ways.
Dr. Kevin Mays (18:26):
Isn't it right.
We lose sight of what got us,and it's a hard thing because
there's certain plateaus as abusiness grows.
Right, there's differentchallenges at different revenue
points, different things youneed to focus on at a given
point.
Whether it's automating systemsor building an executive
leadership team or whatever itis marketing sales there's
always a different challengedepending on where you are in
(18:48):
the growth cycle.
But so many times I find thatwhen businesses become flush,
when they're successful, thenthey start to.
They undercut themselves.
They start.
I worked with one aerospacecompany that wanted to grow.
They acquired 30 smallerbusinesses, 30.
So they were great.
They were one of the biggest.
Well, each business had its ownculture, had its own ERP system
(19:12):
, its own technology platform.
Now they're going to decide tomake them all have the same
technology and it became a wholedifferent ball of wax.
They just totally lost the ball.
They lost their eye, they tooktheir eye off the ball and it
didn't help them.
Gary Pageau (19:26):
Well, look what just happened with Boeing, right
?
I mean, that's a good examplewhere you know they were known
for having the most reliableaircraft there were.
Right, then they buy.
Erin Manning (19:34):
McDonald's.
Gary Pageau (19:34):
Douglas.
And all of a sudden the beancounters get involved and you
start shaving things here andthere.
And then you got, you know,doors blowing off on jets.
Dr. Kevin Mays (19:42):
Who was it?
Neil Armstrong, floating aroundthe earth, saying he had this
realization that he was in acapsule in space that was won by
the lowest bidder.
Not necessarily what you want,and this is the hard thing.
It'll destroy your niche andit's a race to the bottom and
it's a race to bankruptcy.
So I like what you're saying.
You're in a very niche marketand I think the more you
articulate what your niche isand have a specific, very
(20:05):
concrete avatar who's the idealclient and market to that person
and fix that person's problem,you can go a lot further than
trying to the shotgun approachwhere everything to everybody.
Gary Pageau (20:17):
Yeah, and that level of focus is very difficult
you know, as a leader becauseand part of that is because you
know, once you do have atechnology platform.
I mean, I see this all the time,for example, with people in our
industry who maybe buy acertain kind of printer and they
can make a certain width ofproduct on that printer and then
(20:40):
they start playing with othersubstrates and start playing
with other things and they said,well, what else can we do with
this thing?
And then they kind of lose alittle bit of focus, in the
sense that they kind of forgotwhy they bought the thing in the
first place.
Because they got tied up in thisthing where we need to maximize
or just find cool things to dowith it.
Because they're not maybethinking about the market so
(21:00):
much as they're thinking abouttheir production capability.
Dr. Kevin Mays (21:03):
Well, this is the thing too that I find so
often with creative mindedindividuals.
They start a business thatrequires that creativity, love,
that process, and then thebusiness starts to take off and
they still have that creativemindset.
Well, that's very differentthan running a business, and in
fact I've worked with businessowners who they've scaled their
(21:23):
business, did a beautiful job,and I mean beautiful to the
extent that most people who havekids have their products in
their house.
Right, I would say vastly 80%.
If you have a small child, youhave the elf on their products
in their house.
Right, I would say vastly 80%.
If you have a small child, youhave the elf on the shelf in
your house.
But then what happens?
I have this creative group ofpeople who want to design things
and don't want to spend theirtime focusing on the business,
(21:45):
and it becomes this A it's a tugof war, it's a real push and
pull and being able to get folksinto that seat who can be the
implementers and who can drivethe structure in the
organization.
So if you're the creativeminded one, you can stay in that
space and have somebody who cankeep you grounded.
Otherwise, if you're a creativeminded person and you're trying
(22:06):
to grow a business.
It's too often happens that wedo.
We lose focus, we go to thenext thing and the next thing,
and it's a process of continualinnovation and invention, and
the market has no idea whatwe're about.
Gary Pageau (22:21):
And the other challenge you have with that as
leaders is you may have someonewho excels in their position,
right?
Maybe they're like so they're agreat designer, right, and so
naturally you think, well,everybody wants to be promoted,
so I'm going to make that persona department head of all the
other designers and then prettysoon, everyone's miserable.
Dr. Kevin Mays (22:40):
Isn't that amazing how that works.
We make this assumption that,because you're good at doing
your job and doing the task,that you're going to be good at
managing people, and it's such atotally different skill set and
one that's too often overlooked.
I see executives to be good atmanaging people, and it's such a
totally different skill set andone that's too often overlooked
.
Right, I see executives who aregood at looking at the
spreadsheet and the bottom lineand the strategic plan, and they
(23:02):
forget about that pesky littlething, the human.
Erin Manning (23:06):
Every company is nothing more than a human
organization.
Dr. Kevin Mays (23:08):
A human institution, it's for humans, by
humans, to a human organization.
A human institution, it's forhumans, by humans, to a human
end period.
The commodity you might happento produce could be anything.
It could be automobiles, itcould be photovoltaic cells, it
could be whatever you do in yourspecific niche, right?
(23:30):
I mean whether it's creatingphotos or art or what have you?
Sure, but that's what I love.
The infrastructure of everybusiness is the same, and unless
you understand that, it's soeasy to get caught up and
twisted up and miss what youneed to have in place to create,
in my mind, a sellableorganization.
I mean, that's the goldstandard, right?
(23:51):
Not that you have to sell it,but you can retire from it and
ultimately, if you're going tobe a business owner, that means
you have a business that workswithout you and then you can do
any role you want in thebusiness.
Gary Pageau (24:00):
And that's part of the thing you need to think
about is you know, when youstart the business or take over
the business or whatever, wheredo you want it to be?
Right at the end, right, theold Stephen Covey, begin with
the end in mind sort of idea,because I've run into many
people in the photo industry whohave small retail stores or
whatever and they've beenrunning for 34 years and it's
(24:20):
just not sellable, it's not in asellable state Because, like
you said earlier, you knowpeople have got it all in their
head or they don't have theprocesses down or they're just,
you know, doing it the waythey've always been doing it.
So what are like three thingsthat, if you wanted to make your
business sellable, you shouldlook at?
And we're assuming that theperson has their act together.
(24:44):
You know we're not doing anemergency heart replacement on
this thing.
It's going well.
But what are the three thingsyou think that they ought to
look at?
Dr. Kevin Mays (24:53):
Yeah, this is the fun stuff.
When I have business owners whoare hungry, there's some great
stuff they can do that can havea huge impact out of the gate.
I think it starts with thefirst thing we said manage
yourself.
How are you to look at andhonestly ask yourself, how are
you spending your time as aleader?
How should you be spending yourtime?
(25:13):
Too many leaders findthemselves doing the $10 an hour
jobs.
Sweep up the floor, it's themom and pop shop and they do
everything.
Well, that's great, but it'stime to think.
I think of it in terms of amountain, right, what is your
position on the mountain?
What's your station?
If you're I mean if you're thethe leader, you need to be at
the top of the mountain, whichmeans you have the law, the
(25:34):
furthest view, the moststrategic thought, right, and
you're not down in the weedsgetting stuff done, the
day-to-day stuff.
Now, of course, small shopowners.
You need to manage both, butthe first step is that mindset,
to think like a owner.
Then, when you do that, tostart to, I like to draw out an
org chart, even if it's only youto think of.
(25:55):
What are the different rolesyou're doing?
Right?
You have operations, you havesales, you have finance, okay,
and then to start to actuallycreate an and without names, but
by position Right, to draw thatorg chart by position Right and
then and then all the way down,maybe the level below that, and
then the neat thing is you cango in and add the names.
Oh, I'm doing three quarters ofthis stuff and Bill over here
(26:17):
is doing some of this.
But then from that you can askyourself okay, now you have an
org chart for the current state.
Measure that against an orgchart you designed for the
future.
Are you growing your business orsimply trying to keep it where
it's at and create it in asustainable way that you can get
out of it and it'll maintainitself?
So it's not a job you own, buta business you own.
(26:37):
They're two different things.
If you're trying to grow it, Imean, then there should be a
difference between the currentorg chart and the future, right.
But I think when you start tosee it visually oh, here's where
we're going in the org chartthen you can start to hire well,
create systems and processesfor those key roles, maybe two
layers down, that you can hirepeople into.
So there's a method that theyknow best practice.
(27:01):
Here's what the store looks likeat the end of the day.
There's pictures, there's abook they can go through.
Here's how you greet customers.
Here's how you greet the phonewhen the phone rings.
Here's how all of this stuffright.
Here's your brand guide thebasic systems and processes.
Start to get those in place ata low level and then you can
start to feed people, hirepeople at a low level to do that
(27:22):
and eventually train them upinto the higher level positions
and to become the director ofsales, the director of marketing
, the director of finance, thedirector of operations or
whatever.
It is right.
Maybe it's one person doing allof that, that's fine.
But having some clarity aroundwhat those different roles are,
it's hard because as an owner,we wear all the hats and don't
even think about it.
(27:42):
We don't separate it, exactlybeing able to separate it.
Think like, if you're a GM,what are all the different
departments?
Okay, well, you have differentdepartments, even if you're the
one doing it all.
To understand those departments, start to write down what are
the best practices.
Get the knowledge out of yourhead, the tribal knowledge.
Get it written down.
Even if nowadays, with AItechnology, you can speak into
your phone and then have ittranscribed.
(28:05):
In no time, without a lot ofwork, you can start to have a
sheet that says here's how weclose this door, here's how we
do X, y and Z right, and thenyou can really train people to
consistently keep that standard.
That'll allow you to be moreand more at the top of the
mountain, strategically focusingon where you're going, because
(28:26):
most business owners myexperience is they're so busy
running around getting stuffdone in operations they don't
have a strategic focus, theydon't have a strategic plan,
they don't know where they'regoing in three years or five
years.
They're just happy they're inthe field they love day to day.
But suddenly here you are, 60years old, thinking it's time to
get out.
What do I do?
Gary Pageau (28:46):
Well, and what's the response of somebody who
says but I don't have time forthat, Dr.
Kevin?
Dr. Kevin Mays (28:52):
I don't have time for that.
That's brilliant, right?
You don't have time?
Great, okay, then what you'regoing to do is take all your
equipment when it's time toretire and part it all out and
sell all the individualequipment and that's your
retirement.
No, it's about priority.
It's about recognizing that youhave convinced yourself over
(29:13):
the course of your existence inyour job that what you must do
to be important, to besuccessful, is do the daily
tasks.
And that goes back to youmanaging yourself.
You must change how you'rethinking.
You don't have time.
You don't have time not to doit.
If you keep doing what you'redoing, your business will
implode eventually.
(29:35):
Right, if you are, you'recommitted to having this
business be an institutionbeyond you.
To go beyond you, you have toenter into a business owner
mindset, which means you muststart to get people fed in, even
at a low level, right, I mean,I know businesses.
They get interns and your job,intern, is to start to document
(29:57):
the processes.
I knew people who ran a copyshop, and it was a low level guy
just started documenting allthe processes.
Right, I knew people who ran acopy shop, and it was a low
level guy just starteddocumenting all the processes
and guess what end of ninemonths.
He had a book with everyprocess in it.
They could bring anybody in andthey could do it.
Now, that's the hard thing fora business owner.
He wanted to be special.
It's our business, nobody elsecould do it like us.
(30:17):
Yeah, exactly, well, you'regonna.
You, you're going to shootyourself in the foot.
Gary Pageau (30:20):
The reality is a lot of people can do it.
You got to let go Because youwant that.
You want it to be replicable.
Yes, right, you want that.
Dr. Kevin Mays (30:29):
And that's what you do as a business owner now.
But you do it and you know it'sa high level of quality and
that high standard, yourreputation, you, you feel good
about that, but nobody will doit as good as me, right?
That's what mom always said Ifyou want it done right, you do
it yourself.
Well, guess what you got?
(30:52):
To dial down mom's voice inyour head and train others.
That's leadership.
Elevate others to be fullyengaged, to be interested, to be
excited to see the vision, notjust to see the task in front of
them.
You know, not to be just abricklayer who's laying one
brick at a time, but to be thebricklayer who has this
perception that they're buildinga cathedral to God and they're
worshiping every time they lay abrick.
That's different.
You're going to have peoplebringing their heart to the game
.
Gary Pageau (31:11):
Now I like what you said earlier about the mountain
thing, because you know thereality is is you can't see
anything from the peak of themountain if the base of the
mountain isn't solid.
Dr. Kevin Mays (31:23):
Right, I mean, that's a good analogy and but
this is the thing I find so manytimes.
I work with a couple businessowners who have 200 million
dollar businesses and they knowwe talk about that mountain
analogy.
What is the job description ofwhere you should be above the
tree line?
What does that look like?
And once they have that targetdialed in of what that role
(31:45):
should look like, then itbecomes very clear.
Every time they drop down intooperations they can see it very
clearly Like, oh, look what I'mdoing now and guess what?
They start to upset the applecart every time they do because
there's somebody whose role isto be in that operations
position.
A card every time they dobecause there's somebody whose
role is to be in that operationsposition and now they're
dropping down because of themistake they see somebody else
made or that internal voice wantit done right, do it yourself.
(32:07):
So they jump down, skip a level, do it themselves, and it just
creates this cluster ofcommunication in the
organization.
So it is about that trusting.
You talked about being able totrust, being able to allow
people to make a mistake and tonot do it your way and to learn
and to grow, to have that openmindset and to be again not only
(32:27):
a business owner but a mentorand a coach, and to elevate
people up, because, ultimately,the business isn't something
that you should be working for.
The business should be workingfor you.
If you're a business owner inthe true sense of the word, you
should be listening to thisright now down in the Virgin
islands, and the business iscreating for you right now and
(32:49):
you can come back when you wantto and you know what the
business is all dialed in andpeople are there.
You have good management team,good leaders.
They're handling it.
You're the owner.
It's not an appendage that'sconnected to you, because once
you learn how to run onebusiness, my God, you can have
multiple.
You can have franchises.
That's how franchising works,but it's about changing the
(33:09):
mindset.
Gary Pageau (33:12):
So, speaking of changing minds and hearts, where
can people go for moreinformation about the maze
leadership and you and yourcompany?
Dr. Kevin Mays (33:21):
Oh, yes, I love answering any questions.
So of course, I have a website,mazeleadershipcom, that's
M-A-Y-S leadershipcom.
Send me an email, kevin, atmazeleadershipcom, and we have a
lot of materials that areavailable for business owners.
One of the programs I have is afive step to grow your business
.
So I have an evaluationbusiness owners can do to start
(33:43):
to get dialed in.
I'm all about offeringresources to be helpful.
In fact, it's that's my mantraat a deep level.
I believe.
Hey, if I'm just helpful,life's going to work out Right.
So I've got a bunch of freestuff available.
Come check it out.
Go to the website, check it out.
If there's anything that youneed, I have resources,
materials I'll send your way.
And hey, if anybody'sinterested in having someone to
(34:04):
help them scale, grow thatbusiness that works without them
.
That is that's the reason I'mon earth, other than being a
good husband and father.
Gary Pageau (34:15):
Awesome.
Well, it was great to see you,dr Mays, and to talk with you
and connect with anotherMichigander in this great state
of Michigan.
Dr. Kevin Mays (34:24):
I know, I know I'm going to finish with go blue
.
Oh, I know you're in Lansing.
Gary Pageau (34:29):
Hey, listen it's fine.
Go blue, go green, go white, goMichigan.
Right, there you go.
All right, great to talk to you, take care it to you.
Dr. Kevin Mays (34:37):
Take care, it's such a pleasure.
Be well, thank you.
Erin Manning (34:40):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
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