October 30, 2025 • 23 mins
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Pricing isn’t the problem—meaning is. We sit down with author and podcaster Miriam Schulman to unpack the mindset and mechanics behind selling creative work without racing to the bottom. From her journey off Wall Street into a thriving art career, Schulman shares a practical framework for moving past fear, charging premium prices with confidence, and helping buyers answer the real question on their minds: Am I worth this investment?
Schulman explains the belief triad—belief in yourself, in your product, and in your buyer—and why that third piece is the missing ingredient in most pitches. Instead of listing specs, we show how to sell the destination, not the plane: the captured safari shot you would have missed, the portrait your grandkids will treasure, the brand identity that finally fits. Schulman explains how price signals trust, why “reassuringly expensive” can convert better than discounts, and how to align your personal story with what collectors and clients value.
Sustainability matters as much as the initial win. You’ll learn the four-hour rule for creative genius, what to stop doing immediately (hello, vanity metrics), and what to double down on to build a lasting business. She also tackles AI with a clear-eyed take: it’s a powerful car that needs a skilled driver. Use tools that save time—smart prompts, clipping, research assistants—while protecting the original ideas that make your work irreplaceable.
Mediaclip strives to continuously enhance the user experience while dramatically increasing revenue.
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:01):
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the
photoimaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society Podcastis brought to you by
Mediaclip, Advertek Printing,and Independent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:17):
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society Podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by Miriam
Schulman, who is an author and apodcaster, and she's going to
talk about what it's like to bean artpreneur.
Hi, Miriam.
How are you today?
Miriam Schulman (00:32):
Thank you for having me, Gary.
I'm so excited to be here.
Gary Pageau (00:36):
So, Miriam, let's talk a little bit about the
business of art, which is kindof your field of expertise.
What got you into the art fieldon the business side?
Miriam Schulman (00:47):
Okay, well, dialing back a little bit, I
always wanted to be an artist,but like many creative people, I
was told I wouldn't be able tomake a living that way.
So I went to Wall Street first.
That was my job out of collegeand grad school.
And after 9-11 happened, I knewI could not go back to that
world.
And that's when I dedicatedmyself to becoming an artist
(01:08):
full-time.
And at first I still didn'tbelieve I could make a living at
it.
So at first I was painting onthe side and teaching Pilates.
But while working at the gym, Iwas taught how to sell personal
training packages.
And that sales training was myaha moment.
I was like, oh, what they'reteaching me here, I can use to
(01:29):
sell my art.
And now, 25 years later, thatis how I help artists, is
because I'm letting I'm teachingthem how to use these same
business principles thateverybody uses, but to use it
for their art.
And as we were saying before wehit record, it's like that's
why what we're talking about, itdoesn't matter if you're a
(01:50):
photographer, if you are an appdeveloper, if you are a camera
store, equipment seller, aprinter, whatever it is.
We all have to follow the samebusiness rules that apply to
everything in order to thrive.
Gary Pageau (02:05):
But you know, there's always those people who
think they're the exception.
Miriam Schulman (02:08):
Oh, yes.
Everyone thinks they're aunicorn and this won't work for
me because.
Gary Pageau (02:12):
Right.
And so how do you interpretthat, right?
When you're talking to people,let's say you're working with an
artist and they're doing uhcalligraphy or something like
that.
Miriam Schulman (02:20):
And this won't work for me because?
Gary Pageau (02:22):
Yes, exactly.
Miriam Schulman (02:23):
Yes, okay.
So everyone thinks they're theexception, and it's not just
artists who think that way.
That is simply because ourbrains have evolved for
survival, not goal achievement.
Gary Pageau (02:35):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (02:35):
So whenever uh we feel anything that makes us
feel uncomfortable because it'sgonna be different or scary or
risky, which a lot of businessis by nature.
We're we're taking risks to dothings.
Whenever our we feeluncomfortable, our brains are
gonna come up with all kinds ofreasons why that's a terrible
idea.
Gary Pageau (02:53):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (02:54):
Terrible idea.
Because our brain just wants tokeep us safe in the cave,
right?
Safe in there.
So the smarter you are and themore creative you are, the
better you're gonna be at comingup with those stories about why
it's a terrible idea and youshould never do it.
Gary Pageau (03:10):
So you can be your almost your the more creative
you are, is more like how you'regonna be your own worst enemy.
Miriam Schulman (03:16):
That's correct.
And notice, and notice, Gary, Idid not say excuses.
Gary Pageau (03:20):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (03:20):
Because it does not feel like an excuse to you,
it does not feel like an excuseto the person who is believing
their own stories.
It feels real.
It's like, no, no, no, Gary,let me tell you, you don't
understand.
And right in my town, this isthe way it works.
Gary Pageau (03:35):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (03:36):
Right.
Gary Pageau (03:37):
So, step one, you're talking to an artist
who's come up with you that.
I mean, how do you break it tothem without crushing their
creative spirit?
Which is kind of what theproduct is, right?
Or their reason for being inbusiness is they want to share
their creative vision.
And yet, on the other hand,you're saying, well, you need to
follow these kind of steps,these the Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (03:57):
Um, the hardest thing for many business owners
to get over is that cheaper isnot easier to sell.
Gary Pageau (04:06):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (04:07):
So, and we we we were talking about this
before.
It's like not only can you notcompete on price, but it's not
easier to sell something cheapereither, because customers are
really looking for somethingthat's reassuringly expensive.
Is that a concept you've talkedabout be on this podcast?
Gary Pageau (04:23):
Uh, not recently, no.
I want I want to hear more.
Miriam Schulman (04:26):
Okay, so Gary, if I were gonna I do you like a
lot of men like watches.
Do you like watches?
Gary Pageau (04:32):
I just have an Apple watch.
Miriam Schulman (04:34):
I'm pretty boring when it comes to
accessories and well, you know,if you're talking about
something like a Rolex, if Iwere to try to sell you a Rolex,
or if I were to go in an eBayand try to sell a Rolex for $47,
right, I wouldn't be able to doit.
Gary Pageau (04:48):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (04:48):
Right?
Yeah, and if I was gonna evenif I was gonna ask $400 for that
same Rolex, I probably wouldn'tbe able to sell it for $400
either.
It's actually easier to sell itfor $4,000 or $5,000 than it is
for $400 or $47.
And that's because people arelooking for something that's
reassuringly expensive.
(05:09):
Now, someone listening who'snot a Rolex buyer, I'm not a
Rolex buyer either.
I actually have nothing on mywrists right now.
Uh, you have to think aboutwhere in your life are you also
not price sensitive?
Right.
So do you hire the cheapestvet?
Gary Pageau (05:23):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (05:24):
No.
The cheapest babysitter?
No.
Gary Pageau (05:27):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (05:27):
The cheapest doctor?
No.
You need heart surgery.
You're not gonna go look forsomeone who can do it for less
money.
Gary Pageau (05:33):
Bob's discount heart surgery.
That's right.
Miriam Schulman (05:36):
Okay.
So there's definitely buy-in.
And I have clients who say,Well, Miriam, but I live in
Missouri.
I was like, Yeah, okay.
It still works for you.
And so, like my client who wasin St.
Louis, he was asking $3,500.
He raised his prices to $5,000,and people kept buying.
In fact, he it was easier forhim to sell at the higher price.
Gary Pageau (05:57):
But you also have to kind of know who your
customer is in the sense thatyou realize you're not trying to
reach everyone, right?
And they're not everyone is aRolex buyer.
Miriam Schulman (06:08):
Correct.
However, when you're inbusiness, it's the hardest thing
to do is to go after theWalmart customer.
Gary Pageau (06:14):
Exactly.
Miriam Schulman (06:15):
Because every business who tries to do that is
going to be replaced bysomebody else.
Gary Pageau (06:19):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (06:19):
And you can communicate that you're not that
person by your your pricing.
Gary Pageau (06:25):
Yeah, because there's you know the
transactional sort of sales andthe other and not acting
transactional.
Miriam Schulman (06:32):
Not only is it the price that you choose, but
when you bring that into theconversation, right.
So you walk into Walmart, theregisters are right there, right
in front of you, becausethey're letting you know this is
the most important thing to youis how much this costs, right?
Gary Pageau (06:46):
Right, exactly.
Miriam Schulman (06:47):
Right.
But if I were selling ahigh-end uh photography package,
that should be the last thingthat I'm discussing with my
customer.
The last thing.
Gary Pageau (06:56):
Right.
Yeah, you should have convincedthem of the value of the
service before they even didthat.
Miriam Schulman (07:01):
It and it's more than that, Gary.
So, and again, this is thisgoes for anyone selling anything
high-end, whether it's a newpiece of camera equipment or a
photography package, or ifyou're a printer and you're
selling a print package to anartist, it's not just the value
of you, Gary, it's not just thevalue of your service.
(07:22):
But this is where, and I talkabout this in my book,
Artpreneur, it's the belieftriad.
So the belief triad is beliefin yourself, belief in your
product.
Yes, we've heard all that, butyou also have to believe in your
buyer.
So, what does that mean?
That means if I'm consideringspending five thousand dollars
on something, I'm just trying todecide if I'm worth it.
Gary Pageau (07:46):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (07:47):
And if you're only focusing on you, yourself,
Gary, about whether you're worthit, whether your service is
worth it, but you're notfocusing on if the customer is
worth this service, and that'swhat's going through their mind.
Am I worth investing in thisthing that I desperately want?
Gary Pageau (08:07):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (08:07):
Do I am I worth it?
You might lose them.
Gary Pageau (08:10):
So, for example, going with your camera example,
if someone's selling a, youknow, a $2,000 compact, high-end
compact digital camera, yeah.
You have to tell them you'regonna take pictures worthy of
that camera.
Miriam Schulman (08:26):
Exactly.
It's not just can the camera doXYZ?
Gary Pageau (08:30):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (08:31):
It's is my talent worth investing in this
thing in?
And that's part of what youhave to focus the conversation
on.
So you might ask them, whereare you gonna be taking these
pictures?
Oh, you're going to, I don't, Idon't know, making stuff up on
the Galapagos.
Right.
Wow, you're, you know, you'regonna you're gonna be amazed by
(08:53):
the sea turtle picture.
I had a client who, you know,went on a safari and he was so
happy that he had the camerathat was able to do XYZ because
he was able to capture this oneshot that he would have missed.
So take them to that placewhere they are you're feature
pacing them into already owningwhat you're selling, and they're
(09:14):
imagining that experience ofthem having it.
Gary Pageau (09:19):
So when you're positioning yourself with these
kind of buyers, right, what aresome of the things you need to
focus on your message for?
Miriam Schulman (09:30):
Yes.
So that's such a greatquestion.
Because as we said, if ifyou're not focused on the price
and you're not focused on thefeatures, what are you really
focused on?
People are buying meaning.
They're buying on what thisthing means to them.
And that is what you need tofocus on.
Now, what I see so manybusiness owners do wrong,
(09:52):
especially artists, is okay,forget about the price, but but
they're focusing on thefeatures, the benefits.
Right.
And and people say, Wait, wait,Miriam, aren't you supposed to
fe focus on that?
Yes and no, because really,like I said, it's the
destination that people want,it's the meaning that people
want.
So it's kind of like if youwere trying to sell me a trip to
(10:14):
Hawaii and you were telling me,well, the plane has 200 seats.
Gary Pageau (10:19):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (10:20):
No, I don't care about that.
But that's exactly what peopledo when they say, well, it can
do, you know, it has theseF-stops and it has this thing
and it has this much memory.
That's describing the plane.
Gary Pageau (10:31):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (10:32):
You can't describe the plane.
You have to describe thedestination.
And it's not like, oh, thishotel has a bar that's open
until this time.
That's a feature.
Like, uh, how much fun are yougonna have?
What you know, what's thetemperature gonna be like?
Gary Pageau (10:46):
Because what kind of relationships do you develop
while you're there?
Miriam Schulman (10:49):
Right.
Like, what is the experiencegonna be like for me?
That future pace them, enjoyingwhat the destination doesn't
matter what the plane is.
Gary Pageau (11:00):
So, one of the great things about photography
specifically is because it doeshave that emotional, it can have
that emotional.
I mean, there's certainly partsof it that are, you know, I'm
just taking pictures of areceipt and you know, that sort
of thing.
That's not really photography.
But if you're trying to growpeople's experience with
photography, um, what are someof the things that you can do to
(11:21):
connect with those types ofbuyers?
Miriam Schulman (11:25):
Okay, so now it's gonna depend on really
understanding who your buyer is.
What is it that they want touse it for?
Are they a portraitphotographer?
Are they taking pictures oftheir family?
Are they a travel buff?
Is that what's most importantto them?
So understanding their valuesand connecting to them on the
(11:46):
values piece of it.
So that's why I said beforepeople buy meaning and
understand what is meaningful tothem in that conversation.
Gary Pageau (11:57):
Now, the art business is kind of a different
business than the snapshotmemory business.
But when you're working withartists who are trying to convey
a vision, right?
Or some sort of technique orsomething they've learned that
they want to use in a visualsense of some way, you know,
whether ceramics or it'spainting or what have you.
(12:18):
Where does their personalvision relate to the sales side?
Because you can have people whocreate personal visions that
are unsellable, if you will.
Miriam Schulman (12:27):
Let's assume that that's not the case, that
they do have a vision.
I'm gonna give you someexamples about how we were
talking about people's valuesand how you can communicate
meaning in a completelydifferent way based on your
values.
So recently I worked with anartist, he does pencil drawing
of people, but this isapplicable if somebody was a
(12:48):
photographer taking pictures ofpeople.
So it's pretty much the samething.
And before he became an artist,he spent the last 25 years in
the construction business doinglike mill work.
So when we were unpacking, likewhat was those connection
points, how he comes in and howthat artistry of the craft and
(13:12):
the detail of it, well, that wasthe same thing he was doing
with his drawing.
Gary Pageau (13:19):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (13:20):
And so making these connection points that
only you can with your valuescan communicate, whether you're
talking about a brand, it couldbe a brand voice, but a lot of
us are individual, we arepersonal brands.
What is it that only you canbring to the table and talk
about that's unique to you toshow why you're the right person
(13:43):
for completing the vision?
Because it's not just thevision of the artist, because we
need to communicate with abuyer, it's matching our vision
to something that a collectoractually wants.
Gary Pageau (13:58):
And there's kind of two phases for this, as far as
I understand it.
Like there's the I prepare agallery of my work and I would
like people to buy it.
Then there's the commissionedpiece, right?
Where you people ask you to dothings in your style.
Is it the same sort of uhapproach in terms of you know
marketing and pricing?
Miriam Schulman (14:17):
Let's say, for example, you know, it actually
isn't the same.
It actually is the same, um,whether it's a commission or
producing the vision, becausethe person who's gonna
commission you, they just wantsomething more specific that
your vision is alreadycommunicating.
Okay.
If you're not communicatingyour vision, they're not gonna
commission you because theydon't know what they're gonna
(14:37):
get.
Gary Pageau (14:38):
Right.
Okay, that makes sense.
Miriam Schulman (14:39):
And it's and too many artists, whether it's a
photographer or regular, theythink it's just the thing.
The no, it's not the thing,it's how you communicate the
thing.
You know, like Nike, it's ajust do it.
So they're communicatingsomething that is a very
specific idea that people arebuying into that identity that
(15:02):
they want.
And it doesn't matter if you'rea photographer, an equipment
salesperson, an app developer,what is that idea that people
are buying into that idea thatthey want to be a part of that
idea?
Gary Pageau (15:14):
Part of the subtitle of your book is
sustainable and in terms ofkeeping that business going over
time, right?
Miriam Schulman (15:21):
Yes, yes.
Gary Pageau (15:22):
That's where I think a lot of people struggle,
right?
Because creative people veryoften have short attention spans
for some things, right?
They, you know, they they wantto move from one thing to
another because they've kind ofsaid their piece, they want to
move on.
What is your insight into that?
Miriam Schulman (15:36):
Oh, such a great question.
So, first of all, why we chosethe word sustainable.
I have actually gotten clientsover the six-figure mark.
But I know that what mostartists want, what's most
creative want, is a sustainablebusiness simply because they
don't believe that six, youknow, six and seven figures are
possible to them.
So that whole title is like weremember if we're talking about
(16:00):
the branding, the wholesubtitle, we're selling an idea
that this is your dream and thisis what's possible.
And to say become a millionaireartist, no one's gonna buy that
book.
Gary Pageau (16:10):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (16:11):
Well, they might, but not as many.
Gary Pageau (16:13):
So you want to be able to sustain the sales of the
book, by the way.
Miriam Schulman (16:18):
That's correct.
That is correct.
But to talk about your actualquestion was was being
sustainable and people'sshortest attention spans.
I had a business coachbrilliantly once say this to me,
which is making money isactually very boring.
So once you learn how to makemoney, you have to keep doing
that same thing, and that can beboring to people after a while.
Gary Pageau (16:41):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (16:42):
So I'll tell to my artist, like, hey, if
there's gold, keep digging.
Gary Pageau (16:47):
So, how do you coach clients who maybe the
business side of it starts totake away their joy of their
work?
You know, because I once hadsomeone tell me that you know,
nothing kills their love ofphotography faster than having a
photography business.
Right.
Miriam Schulman (17:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's two things that umall creative people and business
people really need to know, andthat is we really only have
four hours of genius time in theday.
And they have done multiplestudies, everyone from Darwin to
Beethoven, you know, whetherit's musicians, artists,
(17:29):
Hemingway, writers, past,present, that you they only have
four hours.
That's it.
That's it.
So I'll tell my artists thatlike if you're doing more than
that, you're not reallyproducing anything of value
after those four hours.
That's all you need to do.
For some artists, that'sactually a relief because they
think they need to be in theirstudio 40 hours a week.
(17:51):
Then it's terms of the businessside, it's focusing only on
what matters and eliminatingwhat doesn't.
Because most business people,it's not that they aren't
working hard enough, but they'refocused on the wrong things.
Gary Pageau (18:06):
Right.
So, what would be an example ofa wrong thing?
Would it be like just spendingall your time trying to get
Instagram likes?
Miriam Schulman (18:12):
Yes, that's exactly 100%.
That's that would be exactlywhat I would say.
When I first started writing mybook, the average engagement
rate on Instagram was 1%.
And I did get one of theeditors from HarperCollins
wasn't happy that I didn't talkenough about Instagram and
TikTok.
Gary Pageau (18:30):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (18:31):
And they assumed, well, this was like the
note that I saw, which I guesswas for a different editor, but
of course I read it.
It was like, oh, I guess she'sshe's a woman in her 50s, she's
kind of old-fashioned.
And instead of being offendedby that, I was like, okay, that
means I didn't make my casestrong enough.
Why social media is not what itwas 10 years ago.
Gary Pageau (18:52):
Sure.
Miriam Schulman (18:53):
So I went back and I edited that chapter.
And during that one year that Iwas writing the book, the
average Instagram engagementrate dropped from 1% to 0.6%.
And Gary, it's now 0.35%.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:09):
So out of a thousand people, that's three
people.
Gary Pageau (19:14):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:14):
That's three people.
Gary Pageau (19:16):
And of those three people, how many are actually
going to buy something?
Miriam Schulman (19:18):
Yeah, that's three people.
Gary Pageau (19:20):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:20):
So that is one of the things that you should
not be focusing your diet on.
Gary Pageau (19:25):
So when you look at like the universe of the art
business, it seems like it'sit's it's changed a lot over the
last few years with differenttools, different things made
available.
Um, you're hearing a lot ofthings about AI right now,
killing the art business.
But I think it's actually gonnamake real art more valuable.
What do you think about that?
Miriam Schulman (19:44):
I think you're right.
The listeners couldn't see myeye roll when you when you when
you actually uh set me up forthat.
I mean, I think that if yourart can be replaced by AI,
you're probably not making goodart.
Gary Pageau (19:56):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:57):
And that's that's true whether you're a
digital photographer or aphotographer.
Like uh I know I was reading uha little while ago that
branding campaigns that use AI,it actually takes longer to use
AI than it does not to use AI.
And there was like a littlecartoon I saw how everyone
thinks uh using AI is likejumping on a train, and really
(20:20):
what it looks like in reality issomebody pushing the train.
Right.
Gary Pageau (20:25):
Well, you know, it's one of those things where
you know it's a tool you canuse.
Miriam Schulman (20:28):
It is a tool, but it's kind of like a
Lamborghini.
A Lamborghini is a car thatgoes really fast, but you need
to have a good driver behind it.
Gary Pageau (20:36):
Right, right.
And you can't drive iteverywhere, right?
You're not gonna do the Walmartthat we were discussing
earlier.
Miriam Schulman (20:41):
Yeah, yeah, you need a good driver.
So yeah, it's great.
I use it all the time, but youneed to know how to drive that
Lamborghini so you don't crash.
Gary Pageau (20:48):
Yeah, because back in the day, I was having this
conversation with a photographerlast week for the podcast.
We're talking about how, youknow, there used to people used
to hand retouch photos, youknow, with oils, and then
Photoshop came in.
And it put those people out ofbusiness, but you still need to
have the eye and the techniqueto do that.
And I think you know, AI, well,besides the fact that you can't
really own the intellectualproperty from an AI, I mean that
(21:11):
I mean that's a whole notherissue, right?
Yeah, but there but the realityis is if you're creating
something that you want tomonetize, you need to, you know,
do it yourself.
Miriam Schulman (21:20):
I mean, well, that's a whole different thing.
Like what so what right?
Yeah, I mean, yes, yes, yes,that's correct.
Gary Pageau (21:27):
So, what would be an example of an AI tool that
you would suggest an artistcould use effectively?
Miriam Schulman (21:34):
So, I mean, we we use like many uh in my
business, and I'm one of thethings that some of my artists
are surprised about is like howhelpful it can be for them.
Gary Pageau (21:44):
Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman (21:46):
So everything from ChatGPT, but again, use
smartly because if you're justsaying if you just say write me
an about page, it's gonna spitsomething out that sound like
Dr.
Spock wrote it.
You really have to understandwhat to put into it to get
something good out.
Some things that we use and myI can encourage my artists to
use are like those AI videoclipping tools.
Gary Pageau (22:08):
Yep.
Miriam Schulman (22:09):
So we love that.
Anything that saves you timeand money, right?
Use it.
Gary Pageau (22:15):
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (22:15):
Like it's kind of like saying you're not good
at math because you use acalculator.
No, somebody who who can docalculus still uses a
calculator.
Gary Pageau (22:24):
Right, exactly.
And that's where I think someof the fear is is that because I
mean people are gener, youknow, normies, if you will, are
generating, and I'm doing airquotes here, art using Chat GPT
or something.
Miriam Schulman (22:36):
It looks like it.
Gary Pageau (22:37):
Yeah, it's it's not very good.
And you know, you can bereplaced by a prompt, you
probably aren't very good tobegin with.
Miriam Schulman (22:45):
Right.
That's what that's what I wassaying before.
Like if it can be replaced, anda lot of it, it's more like
people, what's gonna be moreimportant as we move into this
AI world is an idea economyrather than a skill economy.
Who has the best ideas?
Gary Pageau (23:02):
And speaking of great ideas, where can people go
for more information about thethings you do?
Miriam Schulman (23:08):
Okay, so if you like the kinds of things I
talked about today, you'll hearmore about that on the
Inspiration Place podcast,wherever you're listening to
Dead Pixel Society, or you cancheck out my book, Art Preneur,
available wherever books aresold.
Gary Pageau (23:23):
Awesome, Miriam.
It's great, it's been a greatconversation.
I really enjoyed uh learningfrom you.
This is kind of fun talkingabout kind of the the potential
of the art business and how itactually has more of a blue sky
ahead of it than anything else.
Miriam Schulman (23:37):
Yeah, I'm optimistic.
Erin Manning (23:40):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
www.theadpixelssociety.com.
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the
photoimaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society Podcastis brought to you by
Mediaclip, Advertek Printing,and Independent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:17):
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society Podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by Miriam
Schulman, who is an author and apodcaster, and she's going to
talk about what it's like to bean artpreneur.
Hi, Miriam.
How are you today?
Miriam Schulman (00:32):
Thank you for having me, Gary.
I'm so excited to be here.
Gary Pageau (00:36):
So, Miriam, let's talk a little bit about the
business of art, which is kindof your field of expertise.
What got you into the art fieldon the business side?
Miriam Schulman (00:47):
Okay, well, dialing back a little bit, I
always wanted to be an artist,but like many creative people, I
was told I wouldn't be able tomake a living that way.
So I went to Wall Street first.
That was my job out of collegeand grad school.
And after 9-11 happened, I knewI could not go back to that
world.
And that's when I dedicatedmyself to becoming an artist
(01:08):
full-time.
And at first I still didn'tbelieve I could make a living at
it.
So at first I was painting onthe side and teaching Pilates.
But while working at the gym, Iwas taught how to sell personal
training packages.
And that sales training was myaha moment.
I was like, oh, what they'reteaching me here, I can use to
(01:29):
sell my art.
And now, 25 years later, thatis how I help artists, is
because I'm letting I'm teachingthem how to use these same
business principles thateverybody uses, but to use it
for their art.
And as we were saying before wehit record, it's like that's
why what we're talking about, itdoesn't matter if you're a
(01:50):
photographer, if you are an appdeveloper, if you are a camera
store, equipment seller, aprinter, whatever it is.
We all have to follow the samebusiness rules that apply to
everything in order to thrive.
Gary Pageau (02:05):
But you know, there's always those people who
think they're the exception.
Miriam Schulman (02:08):
Oh, yes.
Everyone thinks they're aunicorn and this won't work for
me because.
Gary Pageau (02:12):
Right.
And so how do you interpretthat, right?
When you're talking to people,let's say you're working with an
artist and they're doing uhcalligraphy or something like
that.
Miriam Schulman (02:20):
And this won't work for me because?
Gary Pageau (02:22):
Yes, exactly.
Miriam Schulman (02:23):
Yes, okay.
So everyone thinks they're theexception, and it's not just
artists who think that way.
That is simply because ourbrains have evolved for
survival, not goal achievement.
Gary Pageau (02:35):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (02:35):
So whenever uh we feel anything that makes us
feel uncomfortable because it'sgonna be different or scary or
risky, which a lot of businessis by nature.
We're we're taking risks to dothings.
Whenever our we feeluncomfortable, our brains are
gonna come up with all kinds ofreasons why that's a terrible
idea.
Gary Pageau (02:53):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (02:54):
Terrible idea.
Because our brain just wants tokeep us safe in the cave,
right?
Safe in there.
So the smarter you are and themore creative you are, the
better you're gonna be at comingup with those stories about why
it's a terrible idea and youshould never do it.
Gary Pageau (03:10):
So you can be your almost your the more creative
you are, is more like how you'regonna be your own worst enemy.
Miriam Schulman (03:16):
That's correct.
And notice, and notice, Gary, Idid not say excuses.
Gary Pageau (03:20):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (03:20):
Because it does not feel like an excuse to you,
it does not feel like an excuseto the person who is believing
their own stories.
It feels real.
It's like, no, no, no, Gary,let me tell you, you don't
understand.
And right in my town, this isthe way it works.
Gary Pageau (03:35):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (03:36):
Right.
Gary Pageau (03:37):
So, step one, you're talking to an artist
who's come up with you that.
I mean, how do you break it tothem without crushing their
creative spirit?
Which is kind of what theproduct is, right?
Or their reason for being inbusiness is they want to share
their creative vision.
And yet, on the other hand,you're saying, well, you need to
follow these kind of steps,these the Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (03:57):
Um, the hardest thing for many business owners
to get over is that cheaper isnot easier to sell.
Gary Pageau (04:06):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (04:07):
So, and we we we were talking about this
before.
It's like not only can you notcompete on price, but it's not
easier to sell something cheapereither, because customers are
really looking for somethingthat's reassuringly expensive.
Is that a concept you've talkedabout be on this podcast?
Gary Pageau (04:23):
Uh, not recently, no.
I want I want to hear more.
Miriam Schulman (04:26):
Okay, so Gary, if I were gonna I do you like a
lot of men like watches.
Do you like watches?
Gary Pageau (04:32):
I just have an Apple watch.
Miriam Schulman (04:34):
I'm pretty boring when it comes to
accessories and well, you know,if you're talking about
something like a Rolex, if Iwere to try to sell you a Rolex,
or if I were to go in an eBayand try to sell a Rolex for $47,
right, I wouldn't be able to doit.
Gary Pageau (04:48):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (04:48):
Right?
Yeah, and if I was gonna evenif I was gonna ask $400 for that
same Rolex, I probably wouldn'tbe able to sell it for $400
either.
It's actually easier to sell itfor $4,000 or $5,000 than it is
for $400 or $47.
And that's because people arelooking for something that's
reassuringly expensive.
(05:09):
Now, someone listening who'snot a Rolex buyer, I'm not a
Rolex buyer either.
I actually have nothing on mywrists right now.
Uh, you have to think aboutwhere in your life are you also
not price sensitive?
Right.
So do you hire the cheapestvet?
Gary Pageau (05:23):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (05:24):
No.
The cheapest babysitter?
No.
Gary Pageau (05:27):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (05:27):
The cheapest doctor?
No.
You need heart surgery.
You're not gonna go look forsomeone who can do it for less
money.
Gary Pageau (05:33):
Bob's discount heart surgery.
That's right.
Miriam Schulman (05:36):
Okay.
So there's definitely buy-in.
And I have clients who say,Well, Miriam, but I live in
Missouri.
I was like, Yeah, okay.
It still works for you.
And so, like my client who wasin St.
Louis, he was asking $3,500.
He raised his prices to $5,000,and people kept buying.
In fact, he it was easier forhim to sell at the higher price.
Gary Pageau (05:57):
But you also have to kind of know who your
customer is in the sense thatyou realize you're not trying to
reach everyone, right?
And they're not everyone is aRolex buyer.
Miriam Schulman (06:08):
Correct.
However, when you're inbusiness, it's the hardest thing
to do is to go after theWalmart customer.
Gary Pageau (06:14):
Exactly.
Miriam Schulman (06:15):
Because every business who tries to do that is
going to be replaced bysomebody else.
Gary Pageau (06:19):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (06:19):
And you can communicate that you're not that
person by your your pricing.
Gary Pageau (06:25):
Yeah, because there's you know the
transactional sort of sales andthe other and not acting
transactional.
Miriam Schulman (06:32):
Not only is it the price that you choose, but
when you bring that into theconversation, right.
So you walk into Walmart, theregisters are right there, right
in front of you, becausethey're letting you know this is
the most important thing to youis how much this costs, right?
Gary Pageau (06:46):
Right, exactly.
Miriam Schulman (06:47):
Right.
But if I were selling ahigh-end uh photography package,
that should be the last thingthat I'm discussing with my
customer.
The last thing.
Gary Pageau (06:56):
Right.
Yeah, you should have convincedthem of the value of the
service before they even didthat.
Miriam Schulman (07:01):
It and it's more than that, Gary.
So, and again, this is thisgoes for anyone selling anything
high-end, whether it's a newpiece of camera equipment or a
photography package, or ifyou're a printer and you're
selling a print package to anartist, it's not just the value
of you, Gary, it's not just thevalue of your service.
(07:22):
But this is where, and I talkabout this in my book,
Artpreneur, it's the belieftriad.
So the belief triad is beliefin yourself, belief in your
product.
Yes, we've heard all that, butyou also have to believe in your
buyer.
So, what does that mean?
That means if I'm consideringspending five thousand dollars
on something, I'm just trying todecide if I'm worth it.
Gary Pageau (07:46):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (07:47):
And if you're only focusing on you, yourself,
Gary, about whether you're worthit, whether your service is
worth it, but you're notfocusing on if the customer is
worth this service, and that'swhat's going through their mind.
Am I worth investing in thisthing that I desperately want?
Gary Pageau (08:07):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (08:07):
Do I am I worth it?
You might lose them.
Gary Pageau (08:10):
So, for example, going with your camera example,
if someone's selling a, youknow, a $2,000 compact, high-end
compact digital camera, yeah.
You have to tell them you'regonna take pictures worthy of
that camera.
Miriam Schulman (08:26):
Exactly.
It's not just can the camera doXYZ?
Gary Pageau (08:30):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (08:31):
It's is my talent worth investing in this
thing in?
And that's part of what youhave to focus the conversation
on.
So you might ask them, whereare you gonna be taking these
pictures?
Oh, you're going to, I don't, Idon't know, making stuff up on
the Galapagos.
Right.
Wow, you're, you know, you'regonna you're gonna be amazed by
(08:53):
the sea turtle picture.
I had a client who, you know,went on a safari and he was so
happy that he had the camerathat was able to do XYZ because
he was able to capture this oneshot that he would have missed.
So take them to that placewhere they are you're feature
pacing them into already owningwhat you're selling, and they're
(09:14):
imagining that experience ofthem having it.
Gary Pageau (09:19):
So when you're positioning yourself with these
kind of buyers, right, what aresome of the things you need to
focus on your message for?
Miriam Schulman (09:30):
Yes.
So that's such a greatquestion.
Because as we said, if ifyou're not focused on the price
and you're not focused on thefeatures, what are you really
focused on?
People are buying meaning.
They're buying on what thisthing means to them.
And that is what you need tofocus on.
Now, what I see so manybusiness owners do wrong,
(09:52):
especially artists, is okay,forget about the price, but but
they're focusing on thefeatures, the benefits.
Right.
And and people say, Wait, wait,Miriam, aren't you supposed to
fe focus on that?
Yes and no, because really,like I said, it's the
destination that people want,it's the meaning that people
want.
So it's kind of like if youwere trying to sell me a trip to
(10:14):
Hawaii and you were telling me,well, the plane has 200 seats.
Gary Pageau (10:19):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (10:20):
No, I don't care about that.
But that's exactly what peopledo when they say, well, it can
do, you know, it has theseF-stops and it has this thing
and it has this much memory.
That's describing the plane.
Gary Pageau (10:31):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (10:32):
You can't describe the plane.
You have to describe thedestination.
And it's not like, oh, thishotel has a bar that's open
until this time.
That's a feature.
Like, uh, how much fun are yougonna have?
What you know, what's thetemperature gonna be like?
Gary Pageau (10:46):
Because what kind of relationships do you develop
while you're there?
Miriam Schulman (10:49):
Right.
Like, what is the experiencegonna be like for me?
That future pace them, enjoyingwhat the destination doesn't
matter what the plane is.
Gary Pageau (11:00):
So, one of the great things about photography
specifically is because it doeshave that emotional, it can have
that emotional.
I mean, there's certainly partsof it that are, you know, I'm
just taking pictures of areceipt and you know, that sort
of thing.
That's not really photography.
But if you're trying to growpeople's experience with
photography, um, what are someof the things that you can do to
(11:21):
connect with those types ofbuyers?
Miriam Schulman (11:25):
Okay, so now it's gonna depend on really
understanding who your buyer is.
What is it that they want touse it for?
Are they a portraitphotographer?
Are they taking pictures oftheir family?
Are they a travel buff?
Is that what's most importantto them?
So understanding their valuesand connecting to them on the
(11:46):
values piece of it.
So that's why I said beforepeople buy meaning and
understand what is meaningful tothem in that conversation.
Gary Pageau (11:57):
Now, the art business is kind of a different
business than the snapshotmemory business.
But when you're working withartists who are trying to convey
a vision, right?
Or some sort of technique orsomething they've learned that
they want to use in a visualsense of some way, you know,
whether ceramics or it'spainting or what have you.
(12:18):
Where does their personalvision relate to the sales side?
Because you can have people whocreate personal visions that
are unsellable, if you will.
Miriam Schulman (12:27):
Let's assume that that's not the case, that
they do have a vision.
I'm gonna give you someexamples about how we were
talking about people's valuesand how you can communicate
meaning in a completelydifferent way based on your
values.
So recently I worked with anartist, he does pencil drawing
of people, but this isapplicable if somebody was a
(12:48):
photographer taking pictures ofpeople.
So it's pretty much the samething.
And before he became an artist,he spent the last 25 years in
the construction business doinglike mill work.
So when we were unpacking, likewhat was those connection
points, how he comes in and howthat artistry of the craft and
(13:12):
the detail of it, well, that wasthe same thing he was doing
with his drawing.
Gary Pageau (13:19):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (13:20):
And so making these connection points that
only you can with your valuescan communicate, whether you're
talking about a brand, it couldbe a brand voice, but a lot of
us are individual, we arepersonal brands.
What is it that only you canbring to the table and talk
about that's unique to you toshow why you're the right person
(13:43):
for completing the vision?
Because it's not just thevision of the artist, because we
need to communicate with abuyer, it's matching our vision
to something that a collectoractually wants.
Gary Pageau (13:58):
And there's kind of two phases for this, as far as
I understand it.
Like there's the I prepare agallery of my work and I would
like people to buy it.
Then there's the commissionedpiece, right?
Where you people ask you to dothings in your style.
Is it the same sort of uhapproach in terms of you know
marketing and pricing?
Miriam Schulman (14:17):
Let's say, for example, you know, it actually
isn't the same.
It actually is the same, um,whether it's a commission or
producing the vision, becausethe person who's gonna
commission you, they just wantsomething more specific that
your vision is alreadycommunicating.
Okay.
If you're not communicatingyour vision, they're not gonna
commission you because theydon't know what they're gonna
(14:37):
get.
Gary Pageau (14:38):
Right.
Okay, that makes sense.
Miriam Schulman (14:39):
And it's and too many artists, whether it's a
photographer or regular, theythink it's just the thing.
The no, it's not the thing,it's how you communicate the
thing.
You know, like Nike, it's ajust do it.
So they're communicatingsomething that is a very
specific idea that people arebuying into that identity that
(15:02):
they want.
And it doesn't matter if you'rea photographer, an equipment
salesperson, an app developer,what is that idea that people
are buying into that idea thatthey want to be a part of that
idea?
Gary Pageau (15:14):
Part of the subtitle of your book is
sustainable and in terms ofkeeping that business going over
time, right?
Miriam Schulman (15:21):
Yes, yes.
Gary Pageau (15:22):
That's where I think a lot of people struggle,
right?
Because creative people veryoften have short attention spans
for some things, right?
They, you know, they they wantto move from one thing to
another because they've kind ofsaid their piece, they want to
move on.
What is your insight into that?
Miriam Schulman (15:36):
Oh, such a great question.
So, first of all, why we chosethe word sustainable.
I have actually gotten clientsover the six-figure mark.
But I know that what mostartists want, what's most
creative want, is a sustainablebusiness simply because they
don't believe that six, youknow, six and seven figures are
possible to them.
So that whole title is like weremember if we're talking about
(16:00):
the branding, the wholesubtitle, we're selling an idea
that this is your dream and thisis what's possible.
And to say become a millionaireartist, no one's gonna buy that
book.
Gary Pageau (16:10):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (16:11):
Well, they might, but not as many.
Gary Pageau (16:13):
So you want to be able to sustain the sales of the
book, by the way.
Miriam Schulman (16:18):
That's correct.
That is correct.
But to talk about your actualquestion was was being
sustainable and people'sshortest attention spans.
I had a business coachbrilliantly once say this to me,
which is making money isactually very boring.
So once you learn how to makemoney, you have to keep doing
that same thing, and that can beboring to people after a while.
Gary Pageau (16:41):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (16:42):
So I'll tell to my artist, like, hey, if
there's gold, keep digging.
Gary Pageau (16:47):
So, how do you coach clients who maybe the
business side of it starts totake away their joy of their
work?
You know, because I once hadsomeone tell me that you know,
nothing kills their love ofphotography faster than having a
photography business.
Right.
Miriam Schulman (17:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's two things that umall creative people and business
people really need to know, andthat is we really only have
four hours of genius time in theday.
And they have done multiplestudies, everyone from Darwin to
Beethoven, you know, whetherit's musicians, artists,
(17:29):
Hemingway, writers, past,present, that you they only have
four hours.
That's it.
That's it.
So I'll tell my artists thatlike if you're doing more than
that, you're not reallyproducing anything of value
after those four hours.
That's all you need to do.
For some artists, that'sactually a relief because they
think they need to be in theirstudio 40 hours a week.
(17:51):
Then it's terms of the businessside, it's focusing only on
what matters and eliminatingwhat doesn't.
Because most business people,it's not that they aren't
working hard enough, but they'refocused on the wrong things.
Gary Pageau (18:06):
Right.
So, what would be an example ofa wrong thing?
Would it be like just spendingall your time trying to get
Instagram likes?
Miriam Schulman (18:12):
Yes, that's exactly 100%.
That's that would be exactlywhat I would say.
When I first started writing mybook, the average engagement
rate on Instagram was 1%.
And I did get one of theeditors from HarperCollins
wasn't happy that I didn't talkenough about Instagram and
TikTok.
Gary Pageau (18:30):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (18:31):
And they assumed, well, this was like the
note that I saw, which I guesswas for a different editor, but
of course I read it.
It was like, oh, I guess she'sshe's a woman in her 50s, she's
kind of old-fashioned.
And instead of being offendedby that, I was like, okay, that
means I didn't make my casestrong enough.
Why social media is not what itwas 10 years ago.
Gary Pageau (18:52):
Sure.
Miriam Schulman (18:53):
So I went back and I edited that chapter.
And during that one year that Iwas writing the book, the
average Instagram engagementrate dropped from 1% to 0.6%.
And Gary, it's now 0.35%.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:09):
So out of a thousand people, that's three
people.
Gary Pageau (19:14):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:14):
That's three people.
Gary Pageau (19:16):
And of those three people, how many are actually
going to buy something?
Miriam Schulman (19:18):
Yeah, that's three people.
Gary Pageau (19:20):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:20):
So that is one of the things that you should
not be focusing your diet on.
Gary Pageau (19:25):
So when you look at like the universe of the art
business, it seems like it'sit's it's changed a lot over the
last few years with differenttools, different things made
available.
Um, you're hearing a lot ofthings about AI right now,
killing the art business.
But I think it's actually gonnamake real art more valuable.
What do you think about that?
Miriam Schulman (19:44):
I think you're right.
The listeners couldn't see myeye roll when you when you when
you actually uh set me up forthat.
I mean, I think that if yourart can be replaced by AI,
you're probably not making goodart.
Gary Pageau (19:56):
Right.
Miriam Schulman (19:57):
And that's that's true whether you're a
digital photographer or aphotographer.
Like uh I know I was reading uha little while ago that
branding campaigns that use AI,it actually takes longer to use
AI than it does not to use AI.
And there was like a littlecartoon I saw how everyone
thinks uh using AI is likejumping on a train, and really
(20:20):
what it looks like in reality issomebody pushing the train.
Right.
Gary Pageau (20:25):
Well, you know, it's one of those things where
you know it's a tool you canuse.
Miriam Schulman (20:28):
It is a tool, but it's kind of like a
Lamborghini.
A Lamborghini is a car thatgoes really fast, but you need
to have a good driver behind it.
Gary Pageau (20:36):
Right, right.
And you can't drive iteverywhere, right?
You're not gonna do the Walmartthat we were discussing
earlier.
Miriam Schulman (20:41):
Yeah, yeah, you need a good driver.
So yeah, it's great.
I use it all the time, but youneed to know how to drive that
Lamborghini so you don't crash.
Gary Pageau (20:48):
Yeah, because back in the day, I was having this
conversation with a photographerlast week for the podcast.
We're talking about how, youknow, there used to people used
to hand retouch photos, youknow, with oils, and then
Photoshop came in.
And it put those people out ofbusiness, but you still need to
have the eye and the techniqueto do that.
And I think you know, AI, well,besides the fact that you can't
really own the intellectualproperty from an AI, I mean that
(21:11):
I mean that's a whole notherissue, right?
Yeah, but there but the realityis is if you're creating
something that you want tomonetize, you need to, you know,
do it yourself.
Miriam Schulman (21:20):
I mean, well, that's a whole different thing.
Like what so what right?
Yeah, I mean, yes, yes, yes,that's correct.
Gary Pageau (21:27):
So, what would be an example of an AI tool that
you would suggest an artistcould use effectively?
Miriam Schulman (21:34):
So, I mean, we we use like many uh in my
business, and I'm one of thethings that some of my artists
are surprised about is like howhelpful it can be for them.
Gary Pageau (21:44):
Absolutely.
Miriam Schulman (21:46):
So everything from ChatGPT, but again, use
smartly because if you're justsaying if you just say write me
an about page, it's gonna spitsomething out that sound like
Dr.
Spock wrote it.
You really have to understandwhat to put into it to get
something good out.
Some things that we use and myI can encourage my artists to
use are like those AI videoclipping tools.
Gary Pageau (22:08):
Yep.
Miriam Schulman (22:09):
So we love that.
Anything that saves you timeand money, right?
Use it.
Gary Pageau (22:15):
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (22:15):
Like it's kind of like saying you're not good
at math because you use acalculator.
No, somebody who who can docalculus still uses a
calculator.
Gary Pageau (22:24):
Right, exactly.
And that's where I think someof the fear is is that because I
mean people are gener, youknow, normies, if you will, are
generating, and I'm doing airquotes here, art using Chat GPT
or something.
Miriam Schulman (22:36):
It looks like it.
Gary Pageau (22:37):
Yeah, it's it's not very good.
And you know, you can bereplaced by a prompt, you
probably aren't very good tobegin with.
Miriam Schulman (22:45):
Right.
That's what that's what I wassaying before.
Like if it can be replaced, anda lot of it, it's more like
people, what's gonna be moreimportant as we move into this
AI world is an idea economyrather than a skill economy.
Who has the best ideas?
Gary Pageau (23:02):
And speaking of great ideas, where can people go
for more information about thethings you do?
Miriam Schulman (23:08):
Okay, so if you like the kinds of things I
talked about today, you'll hearmore about that on the
Inspiration Place podcast,wherever you're listening to
Dead Pixel Society, or you cancheck out my book, Art Preneur,
available wherever books aresold.
Gary Pageau (23:23):
Awesome, Miriam.
It's great, it's been a greatconversation.
I really enjoyed uh learningfrom you.
This is kind of fun talkingabout kind of the the potential
of the art business and how itactually has more of a blue sky
ahead of it than anything else.
Miriam Schulman (23:37):
Yeah, I'm optimistic.
Erin Manning (23:40):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
www.theadpixelssociety.com.
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