March 13, 2025 • 36 mins
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Imagine transforming your workplace into a high-performing, cohesive team where every member contributes meaningfully to your organization's success. That's exactly what Brenda Neckvatal, with more than 30 years of Fortune 500 HR experience, helps business owners achieve through her "human results" approach.
Neckvatal unpacks the delicate balance of team dynamics, comparing cohesion to an elastic band that stretches when individual performance wavers. She reveals how to catch performance issues early before that band becomes permanently damaged, sharing strategies that work across organizations of any size.
At the heart of high-performing teams lie core values that guide behavior and decision-making. "Never let good be the robber of great" exemplifies how a clear value statement can elevate performance across an entire organization. Neckvatal explains why these values must be lived, not just posted on office walls, particularly emphasizing trust as the foundation for all workplace relationships.
The conversation takes a practical turn as Neckvatal outlines her three-part communication framework: listen more than you talk, ask good questions to get good answers, and follow up consistently. These simple practices transform how leaders approach difficult conversations and performance issues, moving beyond the frustration of "employees today don't want to work" to create meaningful accountability.
Perhaps most valuable are Neckvatal's insights into managing today's workforce. Rather than lamenting generational differences, she provides actionable strategies for setting expectations and handling accountability conversations that respect employees while maintaining standards. Her "Hey Brenda Hotline" stories illustrate common leadership challenges and proven solutions that work in today's complex work environment.
Ready to transform your team's performance? Visit YoBrenda.com for free access to Brenda's impact scripts—powerful phrases designed to help you navigate d
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Advertek
Printing and Independent PhotoImagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel
Society Podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by Brenda
Neckvatal, who's a human resultsprofessional coming to us from
Virginia Beach.
Hi Brenda, how are you today?
Brenda Neckvatal (00:34):
I'm good.
How are you doing?
Gary Pageau (00:36):
Good, good.
That was kind of a long-windedintroduction.
To say that you are aprofessional who gets results
out of humans, that's right.
So how did you get started inthat business?
You are a professional who getsresults out of humans, is that
how?
We that's right, that's rightso how did you get started in
that business?
Brenda Neckvatal (00:48):
So I actually come from a 30-year plus tenured
HR background, mostly existingin and actually working in
high-performing teams.
I've had the fortune and theprivilege of working for six
Fortune 500 companies at a widevariety of different levels
throughout my entire career, soI've seen it done, I've been
(01:09):
part of it, and now I get totake what I know and what I
learned and actually helpbusinesses figure out that
people puzzle.
Gary Pageau (01:19):
Which is a very complex puzzle these days, which
I do want to get into.
But when you talk about humanresults, what does that mean?
Because you know you hear thesephrases.
I read a lot of business booksand I'm sure you do too.
You read the articles, theblogs, all that you know
performance and KPIs and allthese things people do.
(01:40):
What's your definition?
So we know what you and I aregoing to be talking about.
Brenda Neckvatal (01:52):
Performance is a wide range.
It can be just break down tothe very basic expectations all
the way up to, you know, beingyour absolute superstar.
But even within that scaleyou're, you still have to have
multiple people working withdifferent individuals being
cohesive together.
And so if one person isstruggling in a particular area
that starts pulling cohesionapart, then unless it's caught
(02:14):
in a timely manner, then whathappens is that drag.
It's like an elastic band,right, it's like a rubber band.
It keeps stretching andstretching until something
happens and it comes backtogether again.
But eventually what happens isthat stretch goes to the point
where it's overstretched.
So when you're talking abouthuman results, we're talking
about catching it early.
What can you do to reverse it?
(02:35):
We're looking at working withdifficult people.
We're looking at, you know,even people who are your steady
eddies and your most stable,high performing, like everybody,
at some point in time missesthe mark.
And so what does that mean?
You know what happens when youhave to deal with a really
difficult personality, andthat's that's where I get my
(02:56):
phone call.
So it's like my little heyBrenda hotline starts ringing
Always it always, when I answerit, it's always like I got a guy
or I have a woman that I'mworking with, like it always
starts that way, always.
So yeah, my little, hey, brenda, hotline.
That's when that thing startsgoing off.
Then I know I'm actuallydealing with something beyond
(03:20):
what their comfort level is, orbeyond what they know how to
handle, when in fact they doknow how to handle, when in fact
they do know how to handle it,but they don't have clarity,
they may not have the confidenceto do so and all they're
looking to do is get thatcohesion back in place and make
sure that that rubber band isn'tstretching anymore.
It's actually snapping back towhere it needs to be so you've
(03:41):
used that word a couple times.
Gary Pageau (03:42):
Cohesion is that the goal Is that sort of where
you think like the harmoniousworkplace is actually a better
performing workplace.
Brenda Neckvatal (03:51):
Ideally, yeah.
I mean, when you know andhere's the thing even within
cohesion you can still haveconflict, that is highly
effective.
So you can have people who arerespective of one another sit
there and say, I hear whatyou're saying, but I disagree,
and the other person, instead ofit going like the ego, coming
(04:13):
right up and going wait a minute.
I'm stepping in Right.
Then now you've got somebodythat's willing to talk and say
okay, let's hear what you've gotto say about this.
Help me understand why youdon't agree with that.
So a lot of times you hear whatyou've got to say about this.
Help me understand why youdon't agree with that.
Gary Pageau (04:25):
So a lot of times, you know you've got different
areas where people areinteracting with.
You know, people brought into ateam, right, you don't see an
existing team and then, hey, weneed another person.
And then HR goes out and findsthem and then brings them in and
you know, but then HR doesn'tdeal with that person, right?
So how can they improve thatprocess of bringing someone into
(04:47):
a team or creating a team fromthe onset?
That will hopefully improve thecohesion, as opposed to, you
know, hey, you know we need tofill a role.
Here's a body.
Brenda Neckvatal (04:56):
Well, to be honest with you, it doesn't
start and finish in HR Team.
Cohesion will always start andend with the value structure of
the organization.
Okay, so I'll give you anexample.
One of my mentors and this is alife mentor of mine everything
that he does from leading hisown family to leading multiple
(05:19):
businesses, to leading all ofhis coaches, to leading it Like
he, operates on a series of corevalues.
Now, when I've worked for thesefortune 500 companies, there
were two very specific companiesthat were masters at doing
exactly what my life mentor does, and that is operating an
(05:41):
organization is solely based oncore values.
Operating an organization issolely based on core values, and
so when you've got core valuesworking for you, what's going to
happen is that you're going tofind alignment, and alignment is
like one of the biggeststepping stones to cohesion.
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I mean by core values, and
I'll use one of his core values.
Everything that I do is all mydecisions are based off of my
(06:05):
core values.
Now, my core values are notstructured like his, but I love
how he does it, so that's why Iwant to use his, so his number
one core value that exists atthe top of everything is never
let good be the robber of great.
It's just a magnificent one,right.
It means that good is notenough in our organization.
Step, take one percent, stepmore right right.
(06:30):
They're just asking for one, not12, not 52, one percent greater
, right?
So never let great rob you ofyour existence and your
experience of greatness, right?
That's the thing now, if youhave somebody that thinks that
that's a load of crap, rightyeah which you're gonna have
(06:52):
employees that come in andthey're like what?
Gary Pageau (06:55):
yeah, that's good enough.
We can do that.
Brenda Neckvatal (06:57):
You know we don't need to yeah you don't
maybe necessarily havemisalignment, but you definitely
don't have that cohesion.
People are not walking the samepath Now.
They may live that way, theyjust may not think that way.
But the thing is is that, whenit comes to bringing the right
people in, your thoughts areactually going to dictate your
(07:18):
actions moving forward.
So if you're looking atsomebody through a critical lens
, you're always going to seesomebody through a critical lens
Like and that was my experience, it was my experience
throughout the vast majority ofmy career I had managers who
were looking at me constantly ina critical way and in their
eyes, I was never going to stepup and excel, even though I was
(07:40):
constantly working on myselfeach and every single day, and
the only way I got out of thatsituation was literally to leave
Right.
Right.
So I had some opportunity, butit wasn't and it wasn't
facilitated as a ceiling togetting myself up Right.
So leaders think when they lookat people in that way, they
think it's like I'm controllingthe situation, I'm controlling
the environment, I'm actuallykeeping the right people in the
(08:03):
right job, when in fact, whatthey're doing is they're
actually stretching that rubberband without really even
realizing it Right andultimately what they're going to
get is they're going to getpeople that look at that core
value and go what the hell arethey thinking?
Because they're not living upto it Right, and it's a massive,
massive aha thing that comesout when people realize that
they're doing that when, fact,they should be doing something
(08:25):
else.
They should actually beleveraging employee assets daily
, they should be maximizing itand literally allowing everybody
who wants to thrive and succeeda full runway to do that,
albeit guided right.
Don't let them go all lacy fairon you, but you know there's
just so many different things.
So when we look at the theoryof human results like what I
(08:47):
talk about is that we're lookingat, what are you doing to
actually maximize that abilityto lead your people?
Leverage employee assets dailyright.
Lead L, e, a, d.
What are you doing to make thathappen?
And how are we eliminatingthese little road bumps and and
the things that are getting in,the obstacles that are popping
(09:07):
up for you?
And and I promise you, I'vebeen down this road myself, I've
gone through all of thiscritical work that I can tell
you nine times out of 10,they're self-imposed.
Gary Pageau (09:16):
So you know, I've had a few guests on in the past
who have talked about, you know,core values and things.
But a lot of times, you know,when I talk to my audience
they're like well, you know, I'mjust trying to, you know, get
the store open every day andturn on the printer and
everything right, you know, Imean.
You know they got the day-to-dayfires to put out and it's hard
to deal with.
You know the promise of a corevalue right, which may be a, you
(09:37):
know, in the Pavlov's hierarchyof needs, you know it's way up
there into self-actualization,whereas down below it's like my
printer didn't show up thismorning that's the day-to-day
need, so obviously stuff happens.
How do you recommend tosomebody who is, let's say, they
got 20, 30, 40 employeesthey're not a Fortune 500
(09:58):
company, but it's a decent-sizedbusiness Staying on that focus
of reminding themselves of theircore values?
Brenda Neckvatal (10:08):
because you can get dragged down into the
day-to-day and lose sight of it.
Well, that's the thing, yeah,and that's the thing is that
those core values really aresomething that should be alive,
and I'll give you, I'll give youa really simple example of it.
So you've heard of patricklencioni's five dysfunctions of
a team, right?
Absolutely yeah when you lookat that period, what is that
foundation, that very, verybottom first rung on that period
?
Gary Pageau (10:28):
Well, it's been a while since I read the book, so
you may want to share whatyou're looking at.
Brenda Neckvatal (10:31):
So the very foundation of a functioning team
, and even a dysfunctioning team, is based off of the value of
trust period.
So you gave me a really greatexample.
It's like they're into the dayto day, right, they want to show
up to work and their printerdoesn't show up.
It's like, well, that trust nowhas been eroded.
Gary Pageau (10:49):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (10:50):
Right.
And here's the secret abouttrust Trust builds like
raindrops in a bucket, likealmost, like trust drops Right.
And so that bucket, if it istipped over because somebody
doesn't come in when they knowthat they're supposed to, if it
is tipped over because somebodydoesn't come in when they know
that they're supposed to Right,or they're not coming in on a
regular basis, that foundation,that value of trust, that starts
to get knocked down Right andthat does eat at the heart and
(11:14):
soul of a business owner.
Because I'm telling you rightnow, other than your own kids,
your dog and your cat and yourhorse or whatever value pet that
you have, there's nothing thatyou put more energy into other
than your own business.
Right.
Really that you have there'snothing that you put more energy
into other than your ownbusiness.
Right, Really Right.
So you're living your corevalues, whether you realize it
or not.
Even if you don't evenarticulate them, you're still
living them and more often thannot, somebody's core value is
(11:43):
going to hit that trust right.
Trust is nothing else is goingto happen unless you have trust
period Right.
So if you're working atbuilding trust, then you're
essentially living within theconstruct of your core value.
I trust that you're going to behere.
I trust that you're going toget the job done.
I'm going to trust that you'renot taking money out of the cash
register.
I'm also trusting that you'renot stealing my customers and my
business from me because younow have a peek behind the
(12:03):
scenes, right Trust.
Gary Pageau (12:07):
But part of that obligation, though, is the fact
that the owner themselves has tolive up to that right.
Brenda Neckvatal (12:12):
Absolutely.
Gary Pageau (12:14):
You know, I mean, that's the thing is.
You know, when you hear thestories of, you know the kids
today don't want to work orwhatever.
Is that because people don'twant to work, or is it because
you're hiring badly or you'renot modeling the behavior that
you want your own employees tohave?
Brenda Neckvatal (12:31):
It's a combination in today's world of
all three.
We do not have people in thisworld right now that have the
kind of skill set that we had 30, 40 years ago.
For those of you who don't knowlike, we were joking around
earlier and he was asking meabout you know, like, how
comfortable you are?
I told him.
I said I'm a one take Osmond,right.
If you've grown up in our era,you understand that Donnie and
(12:55):
Maria Osmond did everything byone take, just like the Jacksons
did.
Right, they had to doeverything by one take.
That was the expectation oftheir household that they didn't
.
There were sharp consequencesto that.
All that surface later on inlife.
But that was also a work valuethat we were taught growing up.
We didn't have remotely closeto anything that people have in
(13:15):
today's work environment.
We had bosses.
We absolutely had bosses andour bosses.
When they taught us how to work, they said this is what you're
going to do.
You're going to do it time andtime again and if you don't like
it, there's the door.
Don't let it hit you in the asson the way out, right, right.
In today's world we don't havethat anymore.
So there is a lack, of lack ofa better word.
Discipline.
That's going on.
(13:35):
We were disciplined into doingour job.
We had high expectations withhigh consequences that came with
that.
Now I'm not saying that thatdoesn't exist in today, but our
culture has shifted.
Our culture in world historyhas consistently shifted over
the decades and the eons.
Right, this is just our nextiteration of it.
So it gives us more challengesto find people, but ultimately,
(14:01):
those individuals likely don'thave that because that's just
not how the world is in today.
Right, but are they trainable?
Gary Pageau (14:11):
Sure.
Brenda Neckvatal (14:11):
Yeah, they are .
Can you set those expectationswith high consequences and teach
people that you come in?
Hey, this is how we do things.
This is what I expect.
Right, I'm going to follow upwith you on this to make sure
that you're doing it, and ifyou're not, you know what.
We're going to help you getback on track.
If you still aren't doing it,the conversation is going to be
(14:34):
a little bit different, and thenwe're going to give you the
choice.
Do you really want to be hereor not?
Right, right, you'll be amazedat how many people will actually
take that and go.
You know what?
Nobody's ever actually talkedto me that way before Right, and
treated me like an adult, andnot everybody is going to
embrace that.
The goal will always be isfinding the people in place to
(14:57):
actually do the job that youneed them to do, and are they
going to do it within the corevalue structure that you got?
Gary Pageau (15:01):
That, I think, is the first reference to Donny
Marie Osmond on this podcast.
So you went on that one BecauseI think there is some sort of
especially in our industry.
Right, because a lot of thepeople who run the photo labs
and the camera stores andwhatnot are, you know, people,
you know, middle-aged and higherin many cases, right, so they
may not have the.
(15:22):
The patience, I think, is whatyou're talking about to actually
have to grow some of the skillsof some of the folks, because
you said, I mean, they aretrainable, they want to, because
obviously they've applied to ajob maybe they weren't doing a
paper route when they were 14,like a lot of people were or,
you know, doing babysitting jobsor whatever, where you kind of
get your first taste ofconsequences.
Right, if I don't ship, I don'tdeliver the papers, I don't get
(15:44):
paid, right, yeah, what is someadvice you have for somebody
who's kind of in that spacewhere you know you're looking at
, you know, let's say, you dohave the core value piece, right
, and you are doing that, butyou know you have to communicate
that consistently.
Brenda Neckvatal (15:57):
You nailed it right on the head.
That's exactly where I wasgoing to go.
It's the communication piece ofit, and there's three things
that I teach people how toeffectively communicate right.
It's either when you're dealingwith a crisis, when you're, you
know, talking about anexpectation, when somebody's
made a mistake and you need tofigure out what's going on, when
you've got two people that arejust like banging heads.
(16:20):
It's the same process foreverything, and the first one is
that you have to listen moreand talk less, and the reason
why I say that is because you'regoing to learn a lot.
You're going to learn a lotmore than always being the one
I'm going to tell you right now,people who are constantly the
(16:41):
ones.
The leaders are the ones who arealways talking.
Their words are being sweptaway by the wind.
Listening actually draws forwardthe information that you need
in order to keep people it'slike a soccer game right.
Keep that ball out on the fieldand when you see one of
player's going out of bounds,you get them back in again.
Just by doing it that way, okay.
The next thing is is that whenyou have to ask, when you ask
questions, ask good questionsand you're going to get good
(17:01):
information back.
Ask good questions, you'regoing to get good answers.
If you ask bad questions,you're not going to get what you
want right.
And asking good questionsdoesn't necessarily mean that
you always know the answer tothem, but what it does is it
actually facilitates people,bringing you the information
that you need in order to workthrough the situation, not fix
it.
Work through it Right.
(17:23):
And then, lastly, the power ofyour leadership where you are
going to reign supreme willalways lie in your follow up,
and follow-up isn't justchecking to make sure somebody's
doing something.
Follow-up is also if the personhas self-corrected or corrected
because of your guidance.
That acknowledgement is likehey, that is exactly what I
(17:46):
wanted you to do.
Thank you so much way to go.
Keep doing, doing it.
That's perfect.
What you did was perfect andyou should feel really good
about that.
Right, that's follow up.
And if you do those three thingsconsistently right then you're
always going to have peopleproblems, you're always going to
have process problems, alwaysRight, yeah, you can't.
(18:09):
You know, and it's really funnybecause years ago, when I first
started, I was screwingsomething up in my head.
I'm like, okay, I fixed thisproblem because I'm a problem
fixer.
Right, I went and fixed thisproblem, had the conversation
with a person, boom, done, notgoing to happen again.
Right, when, in fact, what Ishould have been doing is
realizing is that I'm going tohave this conversation, I'm
(18:31):
going to reset the expectation.
Today's a new day and then youknow what we're going to check
with them tomorrow to make surethat what I put into place
sticks.
Gary Pageau (18:40):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (18:41):
Right and I don't really have to do anything
more beyond that, because ifit's sticking, then it's working
.
Then problem solved Right.
If it's not sticking, thatmeans I got a bigger problem and
now I've done so much footworkalready that addressing the
problem, moving forwardeventually will come down to
choice.
You either want to be here andplay the game or you don't.
That's fine.
(19:01):
Whatever you want to do,congratulations, we love you.
Go on, find your happinesssomewhere else, right.
Gary Pageau (19:11):
One of the challenges you kind of hit on
there, though, is today's hiringenvironment.
I think some people always sayyou know at least this person's
here.
There may be a problem in mylab or in my store.
At least they're here and theydon't want to deal with that
problem of maybe having toinvite someone to apply
somewhere else, as they say whenis the point when you have to
(19:32):
make that decision?
Because you know, I think inmost cases when you get to that
point, it shouldn't be asurprise.
That person should know they'reon a path right of
non-performance, right.
So.
But when do you start havingthose conversations?
Brenda Neckvatal (19:48):
Early, and often, yeah, and you know, what
a lot of people do is that I see, and this is when the Brenda,
hey, you know, the hey hotlinestarts working right Is that
they have now allowed thebehavior to go on for a long
time.
And I'll be honest with you,back in the early two thousands,
the vast majority of questionson my hey Brenda hotline that
(20:08):
would come up were mostly it'slike well, he's got a bad
attitude and I want the attitudeto change.
And I'm like why are youfocusing on attitude?
Because you can't change thatright, what it's even.
Trust me, and if you don'tbelieve me, just tell a
screaming four-year-old thatthey have a bad attitude and
watch the magic happen, right,right, watch the meteors fall
from the sky.
But when you focus onsomebody's behavior, right.
(20:32):
In today's world?
Yeah, we've got still attitudestuff, but really what more
people are like?
They're dialing in on behavior,like they don't want to be here
, they don't want to work, theydon't want to.
Part of it, I'm going to betotally honest with you.
Part of it, is that ourfrontline employees, the people
that we are steady eddies, thepeople that we need boots on the
(20:52):
ground all the time beingclient facing, they are
conditioned for a couple ofthings.
Number one the cell phone hasreplaced pretty much every
appliance in the world exceptyour refrigerator and your oven.
But what it's also done is itis also taught them that there's
such thing as instantgratification.
Gary Pageau (21:12):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (21:13):
And that is not real, right, right.
So there's that.
That's a challenge.
And then the other thing is isthat they also are learning that
everybody can have a sidehustle, and every side hustle
will make you a grandiosemillionaire.
Gary Pageau (21:28):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (21:28):
That also is not the case too.
So, in my opinion, opinion thisgeneration is going to have to
shake that off.
They're going to have to learnthose hard lessons they're going
to have to go through.
The sad part of it is is thatthey're going to be 10, 15 years
behind in the skill gap rightcompared to people that go.
I'm putting my damn phone down,I'm focusing in on what I need
(21:48):
to do here right now and notfalling victim to the instant
gratification that is kind ofpart of this generation, this
rising generation of employees.
By the time they get to be 35,40 years old, they're going to
realize as not the case, right,right, and there's nothing wrong
with that.
Those are the lessons thatthey're going to learn.
Gary Pageau (22:09):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (22:10):
Every generation has them Right.
No-transcript.
(22:35):
This is what I want myemployees to look like, because
when you think a certain way,you are in fact affecting your
future.
It's almost like calling itinto existence.
But, just because you write itdown, just because you're clear
on it, doesn't mean it's goingto happen overnight.
Those things do happen.
They're the exception and notthe rule.
But you at least now knowhiring and dating they're so
(23:01):
similar they really are.
And when you, when you'retalking to somebody and you're
asking them questions that helpyou understand how they're going
to behave through something,and you see them again when you
talk, listen more and talk less,you're actually learning,
because they're telling youeverything, okay, and then
they're also telling the thingsthat they're not willing to tell
(23:21):
you.
They're saying what they're notwanting to say.
You pick up on those things,right, you get a sense.
It's like okay, so I think Ican work with this person over
the next six to nine months.
I think I can get them to whereI need them to be.
And then you have to commit toit.
You absolutely have to committo it, right?
If you don't commit to it andyou just let them flap like a
(23:43):
flag in the wind, that's allyou're going to get.
You're going to get a tatteredpiece of cloth.
Gary Pageau (23:48):
You know it's interesting.
You mentioned that.
It gets back to, I think, whatyou were saying before about
listening right, listening morethan you're talking right.
Brenda Neckvatal (23:56):
Absolutely.
I mean, you're listening forthe things that they handling
the cash.
There's some people that don'tlike handling the cash.
There are people that arereally great at figuring out
your it issues, and then there'ssome people that can barely get
(24:18):
their way out of a paperback.
I mean, it's just we're allwired differently and not and
none of it's bad.
It's just we're all extremelydifferent.
Visionary leaders they look atthe world as a stratosphere and
you're like, can you calm downnow for a minute, cause I need
to talk to you about somethingserious.
And then you've got youroperational people who are
extremely firmly grounded right.
Gary Pageau (24:40):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (24:40):
Like they're only looking at things between
5,000 to 30,000 feet.
You just have to figure out howthe people are a puzzle.
You just have to figure out howcan I take everything that
they're good at and apply ittowards my business, and if you
look at them every day that way,you're not going to see them,
as the checklist isn't beingdone.
(25:00):
They're deficient in this area.
You need to know that that'snot their strong point.
Gary Pageau (25:06):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (25:08):
And if they're not showing up, reliability is
not their strong point.
Gary Pageau (25:11):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (25:12):
Right, it's a really good example.
Gary Pageau (25:14):
So what do you do in that case?
I mean, you've hired someonefor a job and for a position, a
role you want to fill.
Then you're finding out thatreliability is not their
standpoint, right.
Or maybe, in the case of youknow a print lab, they're not so
great on quality control, right?
So what do you do?
Brenda Neckvatal (25:32):
You got to figure out what is at the heart
of it.
Right, because there's a coupleof things that you can fix.
You can fix the amount ofknowledge.
So if it's because they needsome more training, if they're
doing it because they didn'tknow something, that's an easy
fix right, you fill that gap.
If it's something to where theyjust don't have the skill set
for it, that's easy to fix, isbecause they have the gap.
(25:52):
If it's anything else otherthan that, other than those two
things, it's because there'ssomething inside of them that
they are not connecting to inthis business and right and
maybe they need to be invited togo, you know, apply their
skills elsewhere maybe, but thevery first thing is is and this
is always the big miss is thatleaders don't set the
(26:13):
expectation.
Gary Pageau (26:14):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (26:15):
Right, they immediately do exactly what you
did.
Well, maybe this personshouldn't be here.
Well, how many times did youset the expectation?
How many times did youreinforce it?
Gary Pageau (26:23):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (26:24):
And in what time frame?
Gary Pageau (26:25):
Sure.
Brenda Neckvatal (26:25):
Did you do it once when they first started,
and now we're doing it again,nine months later, when it's a
day-to-day thing, right?
Or is it like, as soon as yousee it, it's not being met?
Let's get them to correct andset the expectations, like, if
you're not doing this, I expectyou to course correct and if you
have questions, I'm here.
You know, let me know.
What do you need to besuccessful in this area?
(26:47):
Right?
People will look at you likeyou've got three heads, because
you're not used to being talkedto that way.
Gary Pageau (26:52):
Well, I was going to say, wouldn't they?
Wouldn't the response to someof those be hey, you know you're
micromanaging me.
Brenda Neckvatal (27:01):
Stop hovering.
No, that's what I'm talkingabout is trust, but verify.
Right.
Micromanaging is when.
I'll give you a really goodexample.
I'm on a phone call.
I've got a very sensitive issue.
I've got my door shut.
I'm working my way through thisproblem and the president of
the company is standing outsideof your door reminding you of
your meeting that's starting infive minutes, right?
(27:22):
And then you don't answer thedoor and then they knock again
and you're on the phone for 20minutes and they're standing at
the door waiting for you to come.
That's micromanaging that doesnot work.
Right, minutes and they'restanding at the door waiting for
you to come that'smicromanaging.
That does not work right.
But when you see somethingthat's not happening, like if
you're telling somebody to dosomething that they're already
doing or they're fixing to doand they're not given the chance
(27:44):
, that's micromanaging right.
However, if you are addressingthe gaps, that's not
micromanaging, because I think alot of people would be if
you're accusing, notmicromanaging, because I think a
lot of people would be.
Gary Pageau (27:54):
If you're accusing them of micromanaging, they're
not, they're just.
No, I'm just providing feedbackBecause I always tie
micromanaging almost to the lackof trust.
Brenda Neckvatal (28:02):
That is what motivates micromanagement.
However, there's also somethingelse that motivates
micromanagement, and that's,quite frankly, the person not
doing the job Right, and that's,quite frankly, the person not
doing the job Right.
So, when you get to a pointwhere somebody is not doing it
after being instructed threetimes within a reasonable time
period, you have two choices.
You can either micromanage thatperson and wind up spending 14
(28:23):
percent of your annual timedealing with a frontline issue,
or you can just say you have achoice right now and there are
times where I've done this andit is extremely effective but
you also have to really knowwhen to play this card.
You've had the conversationwith somebody.
You're on the fourthconversation.
If you go beyond three, this iswhen the fourth one kicks in.
(28:47):
Okay, I need you to help meunderstand.
Do you want to be here to dothis work?
Because if you don't, I'm greatif you make that decision right
now, but if you decide to stay,here's what I expect.
The choice is 100% yours.
Go Like you.
Tell me what you want to do,because we're only going to do
this for five more minutes.
Gary Pageau (29:05):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (29:06):
What that person is saying.
Holy crap.
Now my welfare is like totallyon the line, and now it's up to
me.
Gary Pageau (29:15):
There's a little secret about people.
Brenda Neckvatal (29:17):
People secretly love power and people
will secretly love to not thinkthat you like that power.
So when you're giving them achoice, what you're doing is
you're giving them power back,but it's a limited amount of
power.
In the scope of it, they havethe power to make the decision
right then and there and what itis that they want to do.
Right.
That's accountability.
Gary Pageau (29:39):
So you're saying people, if properly set up or
framed, will actually want totake accountability.
They'll like it.
But they have to be set up in aproper way, right?
You can't just drop it on themand say, there you go.
You got to have three to foursteps leading up to it so they
know it's coming, so they cankind of see it coming over the
hill yeah, I mean it's.
Brenda Neckvatal (29:58):
It's a conditioning, it's a learning
right, and this is not what alot of people are used to in
today's environment, but this isexactly what we grew up with
right you know, and it's stilleffective today, as it was 30,
40, 50, 70, 80, 100 years ago sodo you think that it's?
Gary Pageau (30:14):
it's the technology that's changed or what?
Because I mean, like you said,we've all been there, we've, all
you know, gone into a retailstore or someplace and you know
the person behind the counter,instead of greeting the greeting
customers, is, you know,scrolling instagram or doing
selfies or something right, isit?
Brenda Neckvatal (30:30):
I'm just curious, because I don't see
that going away like smart no,you're right gonna disappear, so
you're right, it's a there's acultural shift in the world, but
let me tell you something.
I just got off, in december, Iwas on my very first cruise.
There wasn't a person on thecruise ship you're talking about
.
Our volume was 3,500 people,max capacity on on my, on the
(30:54):
ship that I was on, which meansthat they need about 1,600 to
1,800 employees.
There wasn't a single, not one.
Not even the guys who come outwith a spray bottle or rag and
they're cleaning the letters onthe wall to help you know where
you are right.
There was a single person thatwasn't willing to help you out,
(31:15):
wasn't willing to say hello, wasunbelievably friendly, right,
right, accommodating, joyous,like they were happy to to be
able to meet and at least getand help you solve your problem,
right, not one.
All the way from the captain tothe guys that were slinging the
(31:36):
lines on the side of the shipnot one.
And I talked to I couldn't eventell you how many people I
talked to and my friend that waswith me.
She kept watching me.
She was it's amazing watchingyou.
Just like engage with people.
I said I'm curious where they'refrom.
They say they're from africa.
I want to know about it right,not a single person.
So you can't tell me, on asecluded ship with all those
(31:56):
people that are on board, whenyou've got cantankerous
customers and people who aredrunk and hung over and they
just want to be left alone orthey want everything you know
served to.
There's a wide variety ofpeople on a ship.
The entire staff holds to thesame level of expectation.
Doesn't matter if it's aFortune 500 company or a large
company or whatever.
That's just on one ship, it'sout there.
Erin Manning (32:19):
It can be done.
Brenda Neckvatal (32:20):
Those people are out there, I promise.
Gary Pageau (32:22):
It can be done.
Brenda Neckvatal (32:23):
It absolutely can be done.
You spend a week on a cruiseship and you will understand
that in seven days you'll get itlike there are people that are
still out there.
Gary Pageau (32:33):
Well, that's cool.
So where can people go for moreinformation about Brenda and
all the cool things?
I mean, have you published thehey Brenda hotline?
Brenda Neckvatal (32:42):
Yeah, I know, I should get that URL, shouldn't
I?
So, actually, the easiest wayto find me and this is funny
because my business partner, mybusiness partner does this when
he gets on the phone, he says yo, that's how he says hi.
So I came up with yo brendacom,because it's a lot easier than
trying to spell my last name.
If you go to yo brendacom, I'mactually going to give you guys
(33:03):
something that is going to helpand you can put it to work
immediately, right?
So, when you want more clarityout of your leadership, you want
more cohesion.
It's going to help you buildmore confidence, and this is
something that I call impactscripts.
If you want to start making animpact to your team, making an
impact to your day, so you don'tfeel like you know you're
(33:25):
jumping through hoops andsolving everybody's problems.
This is going to help youachieve that.
Listen more, talk less it'sgoing to help you achieve.
Ask good questions You're goingto help you achieve that.
Listen more, talk less it'sgoing to help you achieve.
Ask good questions You're goingto get good answers, especially
that one.
Ok, and so impact.
So if you go to your Brenda dotcom, what you're going to do is
you put in your name, you putin your email and it's going to
ask you a question.
(33:46):
It's going to ask you what wasthe one thing that wowed you?
Today, you're going to be ableto take the course.
It's totally free, 100%.
And these are my three topphrases that I use all the time,
especially when I'm dealingwith difficult people, and I'll
give you an example of one ofthem.
You ever have that one personthat comes in and that's
constantly telling you about howbad Bob is.
And Bob sucks, and you knowBob's thinking this about you
(34:08):
and Bob thinks that you're doingbecause you know you make this
decision and all of a sudden,because Bob it's like well, how
do you know what's on Bob's mind, right?
So now you've got a conflictwith Bob.
One of the things that I havewhen people who are just so
caught up into this thing, I'llask them why do you believe that
is?
Why do you believe it is thatBob doesn't like you?
Why do you believe that Bob isintentionally setting out to
(34:32):
make your life a living hell?
Help me understand that.
Right, that is a great question, because what it does is it
pulls the person's ego out ofthe conversation, right?
And it requires them to giveyou information, if it's
something.
Because Bob has told me hedoesn't like me.
Bob is telling me that hedoesn't like the smell of my
(34:54):
perfume because Bob is tellingme that he's, you know, done
something stupid to my coffeeRight now.
You got something to work with,right.
But if they keep coming out andsay, well, it's just because
this is how he is and this ishow he approaches and this is
what I'm like, ok, now that'sego, because that's somebody
trying to interpret somethingthat actually isn't really
happening Right Now.
You know what you're dealingwith.
(35:14):
You're either dealing withdrama or you're dealing with
real facts, right.
So let's take your exampleearlier of the person coming in
late, right, your printer notshowing up the next time they
come in is help me understandwhy you are not coming into work
on time.
And then you shut up.
And it's amazing because itwill force them to answer the
(35:35):
question without this egogetting in the way and without
all of this cultural shift stuffthat's coming in and all of
these lame excuses.
Right, they'll try the lameexcuse, but that is a hard
conversation for them to beat.
Gary Pageau (35:48):
Right.
Well, yeah, I've heard thelatest is time blindness that
now people are afflicted withtime blindness.
Right, they can't judge time,so they are always late, right.
Brenda Neckvatal (35:59):
You know, every second grader knows how to
read a damn clock these days.
Every phone has an alarm clock.
Yeah, I mean, I swear to God,iphone has replaced Mickey Mouse
watches.
I mean, I swear to God, iphonehas replaced Mickey Mouse
watches, exactly.
Gary Pageau (36:14):
So everyone needs to go to YoBrenda that's
Y-O-Brenda.
com to get these three powerfulstatements that people can learn
.
Well, thank you, Brenda, foryour time.
It's been great.
Thank you for bringing back thememories of Donnie and Marie
Osmond and learning more abouthow to manage people in this
(36:34):
very fraught time.
So thank you so much.
Brenda Neckvatal (36:37):
Thank you for having me on, I appreciate it.
Erin Manning (36:40):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry's leadingnews source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Advertek
Printing and Independent PhotoImagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel
Society Podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by Brenda
Neckvatal, who's a human resultsprofessional coming to us from
Virginia Beach.
Hi Brenda, how are you today?
Brenda Neckvatal (00:34):
I'm good.
How are you doing?
Gary Pageau (00:36):
Good, good.
That was kind of a long-windedintroduction.
To say that you are aprofessional who gets results
out of humans, that's right.
So how did you get started inthat business?
You are a professional who getsresults out of humans, is that
how?
We that's right, that's rightso how did you get started in
that business?
Brenda Neckvatal (00:48):
So I actually come from a 30-year plus tenured
HR background, mostly existingin and actually working in
high-performing teams.
I've had the fortune and theprivilege of working for six
Fortune 500 companies at a widevariety of different levels
throughout my entire career, soI've seen it done, I've been
(01:09):
part of it, and now I get totake what I know and what I
learned and actually helpbusinesses figure out that
people puzzle.
Gary Pageau (01:19):
Which is a very complex puzzle these days, which
I do want to get into.
But when you talk about humanresults, what does that mean?
Because you know you hear thesephrases.
I read a lot of business booksand I'm sure you do too.
You read the articles, theblogs, all that you know
performance and KPIs and allthese things people do.
(01:40):
What's your definition?
So we know what you and I aregoing to be talking about.
Brenda Neckvatal (01:52):
Performance is a wide range.
It can be just break down tothe very basic expectations all
the way up to, you know, beingyour absolute superstar.
But even within that scaleyou're, you still have to have
multiple people working withdifferent individuals being
cohesive together.
And so if one person isstruggling in a particular area
that starts pulling cohesionapart, then unless it's caught
(02:14):
in a timely manner, then whathappens is that drag.
It's like an elastic band,right, it's like a rubber band.
It keeps stretching andstretching until something
happens and it comes backtogether again.
But eventually what happens isthat stretch goes to the point
where it's overstretched.
So when you're talking abouthuman results, we're talking
about catching it early.
What can you do to reverse it?
(02:35):
We're looking at working withdifficult people.
We're looking at, you know,even people who are your steady
eddies and your most stable,high performing, like everybody,
at some point in time missesthe mark.
And so what does that mean?
You know what happens when youhave to deal with a really
difficult personality, andthat's that's where I get my
(02:56):
phone call.
So it's like my little heyBrenda hotline starts ringing
Always it always, when I answerit, it's always like I got a guy
or I have a woman that I'mworking with, like it always
starts that way, always.
So yeah, my little, hey, brenda, hotline.
That's when that thing startsgoing off.
Then I know I'm actuallydealing with something beyond
(03:20):
what their comfort level is, orbeyond what they know how to
handle, when in fact they doknow how to handle, when in fact
they do know how to handle it,but they don't have clarity,
they may not have the confidenceto do so and all they're
looking to do is get thatcohesion back in place and make
sure that that rubber band isn'tstretching anymore.
It's actually snapping back towhere it needs to be so you've
(03:41):
used that word a couple times.
Gary Pageau (03:42):
Cohesion is that the goal Is that sort of where
you think like the harmoniousworkplace is actually a better
performing workplace.
Brenda Neckvatal (03:51):
Ideally, yeah.
I mean, when you know andhere's the thing even within
cohesion you can still haveconflict, that is highly
effective.
So you can have people who arerespective of one another sit
there and say, I hear whatyou're saying, but I disagree,
and the other person, instead ofit going like the ego, coming
(04:13):
right up and going wait a minute.
I'm stepping in Right.
Then now you've got somebodythat's willing to talk and say
okay, let's hear what you've gotto say about this.
Help me understand why youdon't agree with that.
So a lot of times you hear whatyou've got to say about this.
Help me understand why youdon't agree with that.
Gary Pageau (04:25):
So a lot of times, you know you've got different
areas where people areinteracting with.
You know, people brought into ateam, right, you don't see an
existing team and then, hey, weneed another person.
And then HR goes out and findsthem and then brings them in and
you know, but then HR doesn'tdeal with that person, right?
So how can they improve thatprocess of bringing someone into
(04:47):
a team or creating a team fromthe onset?
That will hopefully improve thecohesion, as opposed to, you
know, hey, you know we need tofill a role.
Here's a body.
Brenda Neckvatal (04:56):
Well, to be honest with you, it doesn't
start and finish in HR Team.
Cohesion will always start andend with the value structure of
the organization.
Okay, so I'll give you anexample.
One of my mentors and this is alife mentor of mine everything
that he does from leading hisown family to leading multiple
(05:19):
businesses, to leading all ofhis coaches, to leading it Like
he, operates on a series of corevalues.
Now, when I've worked for thesefortune 500 companies, there
were two very specific companiesthat were masters at doing
exactly what my life mentor does, and that is operating an
(05:41):
organization is solely based oncore values.
Operating an organization issolely based on core values, and
so when you've got core valuesworking for you, what's going to
happen is that you're going tofind alignment, and alignment is
like one of the biggeststepping stones to cohesion.
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I mean by core values, and
I'll use one of his core values.
Everything that I do is all mydecisions are based off of my
(06:05):
core values.
Now, my core values are notstructured like his, but I love
how he does it, so that's why Iwant to use his, so his number
one core value that exists atthe top of everything is never
let good be the robber of great.
It's just a magnificent one,right.
It means that good is notenough in our organization.
Step, take one percent, stepmore right right.
(06:30):
They're just asking for one, not12, not 52, one percent greater
, right?
So never let great rob you ofyour existence and your
experience of greatness, right?
That's the thing now, if youhave somebody that thinks that
that's a load of crap, rightyeah which you're gonna have
(06:52):
employees that come in andthey're like what?
Gary Pageau (06:55):
yeah, that's good enough.
We can do that.
Brenda Neckvatal (06:57):
You know we don't need to yeah you don't
maybe necessarily havemisalignment, but you definitely
don't have that cohesion.
People are not walking the samepath Now.
They may live that way, theyjust may not think that way.
But the thing is is that, whenit comes to bringing the right
people in, your thoughts areactually going to dictate your
(07:18):
actions moving forward.
So if you're looking atsomebody through a critical lens
, you're always going to seesomebody through a critical lens
Like and that was my experience, it was my experience
throughout the vast majority ofmy career I had managers who
were looking at me constantly ina critical way and in their
eyes, I was never going to stepup and excel, even though I was
(07:40):
constantly working on myselfeach and every single day, and
the only way I got out of thatsituation was literally to leave
Right.
Right.
So I had some opportunity, butit wasn't and it wasn't
facilitated as a ceiling togetting myself up Right.
So leaders think when they lookat people in that way, they
think it's like I'm controllingthe situation, I'm controlling
the environment, I'm actuallykeeping the right people in the
(08:03):
right job, when in fact, whatthey're doing is they're
actually stretching that rubberband without really even
realizing it Right andultimately what they're going to
get is they're going to getpeople that look at that core
value and go what the hell arethey thinking?
Because they're not living upto it Right, and it's a massive,
massive aha thing that comesout when people realize that
they're doing that when, fact,they should be doing something
(08:25):
else.
They should actually beleveraging employee assets daily
, they should be maximizing itand literally allowing everybody
who wants to thrive and succeeda full runway to do that,
albeit guided right.
Don't let them go all lacy fairon you, but you know there's
just so many different things.
So when we look at the theoryof human results like what I
(08:47):
talk about is that we're lookingat, what are you doing to
actually maximize that abilityto lead your people?
Leverage employee assets dailyright.
Lead L, e, a, d.
What are you doing to make thathappen?
And how are we eliminatingthese little road bumps and and
the things that are getting in,the obstacles that are popping
(09:07):
up for you?
And and I promise you, I'vebeen down this road myself, I've
gone through all of thiscritical work that I can tell
you nine times out of 10,they're self-imposed.
Gary Pageau (09:16):
So you know, I've had a few guests on in the past
who have talked about, you know,core values and things.
But a lot of times, you know,when I talk to my audience
they're like well, you know, I'mjust trying to, you know, get
the store open every day andturn on the printer and
everything right, you know, Imean.
You know they got the day-to-dayfires to put out and it's hard
to deal with.
You know the promise of a corevalue right, which may be a, you
(09:37):
know, in the Pavlov's hierarchyof needs, you know it's way up
there into self-actualization,whereas down below it's like my
printer didn't show up thismorning that's the day-to-day
need, so obviously stuff happens.
How do you recommend tosomebody who is, let's say, they
got 20, 30, 40 employeesthey're not a Fortune 500
(09:58):
company, but it's a decent-sizedbusiness Staying on that focus
of reminding themselves of theircore values?
Brenda Neckvatal (10:08):
because you can get dragged down into the
day-to-day and lose sight of it.
Well, that's the thing, yeah,and that's the thing is that
those core values really aresomething that should be alive,
and I'll give you, I'll give youa really simple example of it.
So you've heard of patricklencioni's five dysfunctions of
a team, right?
Absolutely yeah when you lookat that period, what is that
foundation, that very, verybottom first rung on that period
?
Gary Pageau (10:28):
Well, it's been a while since I read the book, so
you may want to share whatyou're looking at.
Brenda Neckvatal (10:31):
So the very foundation of a functioning team
, and even a dysfunctioning team, is based off of the value of
trust period.
So you gave me a really greatexample.
It's like they're into the dayto day, right, they want to show
up to work and their printerdoesn't show up.
It's like, well, that trust nowhas been eroded.
Gary Pageau (10:49):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (10:50):
Right.
And here's the secret abouttrust Trust builds like
raindrops in a bucket, likealmost, like trust drops Right.
And so that bucket, if it istipped over because somebody
doesn't come in when they knowthat they're supposed to, if it
is tipped over because somebodydoesn't come in when they know
that they're supposed to Right,or they're not coming in on a
regular basis, that foundation,that value of trust, that starts
to get knocked down Right andthat does eat at the heart and
(11:14):
soul of a business owner.
Because I'm telling you rightnow, other than your own kids,
your dog and your cat and yourhorse or whatever value pet that
you have, there's nothing thatyou put more energy into other
than your own business.
Right.
Really that you have there'snothing that you put more energy
into other than your ownbusiness.
Right, Really Right.
So you're living your corevalues, whether you realize it
or not.
Even if you don't evenarticulate them, you're still
living them and more often thannot, somebody's core value is
(11:43):
going to hit that trust right.
Trust is nothing else is goingto happen unless you have trust
period Right.
So if you're working atbuilding trust, then you're
essentially living within theconstruct of your core value.
I trust that you're going to behere.
I trust that you're going toget the job done.
I'm going to trust that you'renot taking money out of the cash
register.
I'm also trusting that you'renot stealing my customers and my
business from me because younow have a peek behind the
(12:03):
scenes, right Trust.
Gary Pageau (12:07):
But part of that obligation, though, is the fact
that the owner themselves has tolive up to that right.
Brenda Neckvatal (12:12):
Absolutely.
Gary Pageau (12:14):
You know, I mean, that's the thing is.
You know, when you hear thestories of, you know the kids
today don't want to work orwhatever.
Is that because people don'twant to work, or is it because
you're hiring badly or you'renot modeling the behavior that
you want your own employees tohave?
Brenda Neckvatal (12:31):
It's a combination in today's world of
all three.
We do not have people in thisworld right now that have the
kind of skill set that we had 30, 40 years ago.
For those of you who don't knowlike, we were joking around
earlier and he was asking meabout you know, like, how
comfortable you are?
I told him.
I said I'm a one take Osmond,right.
If you've grown up in our era,you understand that Donnie and
(12:55):
Maria Osmond did everything byone take, just like the Jacksons
did.
Right, they had to doeverything by one take.
That was the expectation oftheir household that they didn't
.
There were sharp consequencesto that.
All that surface later on inlife.
But that was also a work valuethat we were taught growing up.
We didn't have remotely closeto anything that people have in
(13:15):
today's work environment.
We had bosses.
We absolutely had bosses andour bosses.
When they taught us how to work, they said this is what you're
going to do.
You're going to do it time andtime again and if you don't like
it, there's the door.
Don't let it hit you in the asson the way out, right, right.
In today's world we don't havethat anymore.
So there is a lack, of lack ofa better word.
Discipline.
That's going on.
(13:35):
We were disciplined into doingour job.
We had high expectations withhigh consequences that came with
that.
Now I'm not saying that thatdoesn't exist in today, but our
culture has shifted.
Our culture in world historyhas consistently shifted over
the decades and the eons.
Right, this is just our nextiteration of it.
So it gives us more challengesto find people, but ultimately,
(14:01):
those individuals likely don'thave that because that's just
not how the world is in today.
Right, but are they trainable?
Gary Pageau (14:11):
Sure.
Brenda Neckvatal (14:11):
Yeah, they are .
Can you set those expectationswith high consequences and teach
people that you come in?
Hey, this is how we do things.
This is what I expect.
Right, I'm going to follow upwith you on this to make sure
that you're doing it, and ifyou're not, you know what.
We're going to help you getback on track.
If you still aren't doing it,the conversation is going to be
(14:34):
a little bit different, and thenwe're going to give you the
choice.
Do you really want to be hereor not?
Right, right, you'll be amazedat how many people will actually
take that and go.
You know what?
Nobody's ever actually talkedto me that way before Right, and
treated me like an adult, andnot everybody is going to
embrace that.
The goal will always be isfinding the people in place to
(14:57):
actually do the job that youneed them to do, and are they
going to do it within the corevalue structure that you got?
Gary Pageau (15:01):
That, I think, is the first reference to Donny
Marie Osmond on this podcast.
So you went on that one BecauseI think there is some sort of
especially in our industry.
Right, because a lot of thepeople who run the photo labs
and the camera stores andwhatnot are, you know, people,
you know, middle-aged and higherin many cases, right, so they
may not have the.
(15:22):
The patience, I think, is whatyou're talking about to actually
have to grow some of the skillsof some of the folks, because
you said, I mean, they aretrainable, they want to, because
obviously they've applied to ajob maybe they weren't doing a
paper route when they were 14,like a lot of people were or,
you know, doing babysitting jobsor whatever, where you kind of
get your first taste ofconsequences.
Right, if I don't ship, I don'tdeliver the papers, I don't get
(15:44):
paid, right, yeah, what is someadvice you have for somebody
who's kind of in that spacewhere you know you're looking at
, you know, let's say, you dohave the core value piece, right
, and you are doing that, butyou know you have to communicate
that consistently.
Brenda Neckvatal (15:57):
You nailed it right on the head.
That's exactly where I wasgoing to go.
It's the communication piece ofit, and there's three things
that I teach people how toeffectively communicate right.
It's either when you're dealingwith a crisis, when you're, you
know, talking about anexpectation, when somebody's
made a mistake and you need tofigure out what's going on, when
you've got two people that arejust like banging heads.
(16:20):
It's the same process foreverything, and the first one is
that you have to listen moreand talk less, and the reason
why I say that is because you'regoing to learn a lot.
You're going to learn a lotmore than always being the one
I'm going to tell you right now,people who are constantly the
(16:41):
ones.
The leaders are the ones who arealways talking.
Their words are being sweptaway by the wind.
Listening actually draws forwardthe information that you need
in order to keep people it'slike a soccer game right.
Keep that ball out on the fieldand when you see one of
player's going out of bounds,you get them back in again.
Just by doing it that way, okay.
The next thing is is that whenyou have to ask, when you ask
questions, ask good questionsand you're going to get good
(17:01):
information back.
Ask good questions, you'regoing to get good answers.
If you ask bad questions,you're not going to get what you
want right.
And asking good questionsdoesn't necessarily mean that
you always know the answer tothem, but what it does is it
actually facilitates people,bringing you the information
that you need in order to workthrough the situation, not fix
it.
Work through it Right.
(17:23):
And then, lastly, the power ofyour leadership where you are
going to reign supreme willalways lie in your follow up,
and follow-up isn't justchecking to make sure somebody's
doing something.
Follow-up is also if the personhas self-corrected or corrected
because of your guidance.
That acknowledgement is likehey, that is exactly what I
(17:46):
wanted you to do.
Thank you so much way to go.
Keep doing, doing it.
That's perfect.
What you did was perfect andyou should feel really good
about that.
Right, that's follow up.
And if you do those three thingsconsistently right then you're
always going to have peopleproblems, you're always going to
have process problems, alwaysRight, yeah, you can't.
(18:09):
You know, and it's really funnybecause years ago, when I first
started, I was screwingsomething up in my head.
I'm like, okay, I fixed thisproblem because I'm a problem
fixer.
Right, I went and fixed thisproblem, had the conversation
with a person, boom, done, notgoing to happen again.
Right, when, in fact, what Ishould have been doing is
realizing is that I'm going tohave this conversation, I'm
(18:31):
going to reset the expectation.
Today's a new day and then youknow what we're going to check
with them tomorrow to make surethat what I put into place
sticks.
Gary Pageau (18:40):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (18:41):
Right and I don't really have to do anything
more beyond that, because ifit's sticking, then it's working
.
Then problem solved Right.
If it's not sticking, thatmeans I got a bigger problem and
now I've done so much footworkalready that addressing the
problem, moving forwardeventually will come down to
choice.
You either want to be here andplay the game or you don't.
That's fine.
(19:01):
Whatever you want to do,congratulations, we love you.
Go on, find your happinesssomewhere else, right.
Gary Pageau (19:11):
One of the challenges you kind of hit on
there, though, is today's hiringenvironment.
I think some people always sayyou know at least this person's
here.
There may be a problem in mylab or in my store.
At least they're here and theydon't want to deal with that
problem of maybe having toinvite someone to apply
somewhere else, as they say whenis the point when you have to
(19:32):
make that decision?
Because you know, I think inmost cases when you get to that
point, it shouldn't be asurprise.
That person should know they'reon a path right of
non-performance, right.
So.
But when do you start havingthose conversations?
Brenda Neckvatal (19:48):
Early, and often, yeah, and you know, what
a lot of people do is that I see, and this is when the Brenda,
hey, you know, the hey hotlinestarts working right Is that
they have now allowed thebehavior to go on for a long
time.
And I'll be honest with you,back in the early two thousands,
the vast majority of questionson my hey Brenda hotline that
(20:08):
would come up were mostly it'slike well, he's got a bad
attitude and I want the attitudeto change.
And I'm like why are youfocusing on attitude?
Because you can't change thatright, what it's even.
Trust me, and if you don'tbelieve me, just tell a
screaming four-year-old thatthey have a bad attitude and
watch the magic happen, right,right, watch the meteors fall
from the sky.
But when you focus onsomebody's behavior, right.
(20:32):
In today's world?
Yeah, we've got still attitudestuff, but really what more
people are like?
They're dialing in on behavior,like they don't want to be here
, they don't want to work, theydon't want to.
Part of it, I'm going to betotally honest with you.
Part of it, is that ourfrontline employees, the people
that we are steady eddies, thepeople that we need boots on the
(20:52):
ground all the time beingclient facing, they are
conditioned for a couple ofthings.
Number one the cell phone hasreplaced pretty much every
appliance in the world exceptyour refrigerator and your oven.
But what it's also done is itis also taught them that there's
such thing as instantgratification.
Gary Pageau (21:12):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (21:13):
And that is not real, right, right.
So there's that.
That's a challenge.
And then the other thing is isthat they also are learning that
everybody can have a sidehustle, and every side hustle
will make you a grandiosemillionaire.
Gary Pageau (21:28):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (21:28):
That also is not the case too.
So, in my opinion, opinion thisgeneration is going to have to
shake that off.
They're going to have to learnthose hard lessons they're going
to have to go through.
The sad part of it is is thatthey're going to be 10, 15 years
behind in the skill gap rightcompared to people that go.
I'm putting my damn phone down,I'm focusing in on what I need
(21:48):
to do here right now and notfalling victim to the instant
gratification that is kind ofpart of this generation, this
rising generation of employees.
By the time they get to be 35,40 years old, they're going to
realize as not the case, right,right, and there's nothing wrong
with that.
Those are the lessons thatthey're going to learn.
Gary Pageau (22:09):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (22:10):
Every generation has them Right.
No-transcript.
(22:35):
This is what I want myemployees to look like, because
when you think a certain way,you are in fact affecting your
future.
It's almost like calling itinto existence.
But, just because you write itdown, just because you're clear
on it, doesn't mean it's goingto happen overnight.
Those things do happen.
They're the exception and notthe rule.
But you at least now knowhiring and dating they're so
(23:01):
similar they really are.
And when you, when you'retalking to somebody and you're
asking them questions that helpyou understand how they're going
to behave through something,and you see them again when you
talk, listen more and talk less,you're actually learning,
because they're telling youeverything, okay, and then
they're also telling the thingsthat they're not willing to tell
(23:21):
you.
They're saying what they're notwanting to say.
You pick up on those things,right, you get a sense.
It's like okay, so I think Ican work with this person over
the next six to nine months.
I think I can get them to whereI need them to be.
And then you have to commit toit.
You absolutely have to committo it, right?
If you don't commit to it andyou just let them flap like a
(23:43):
flag in the wind, that's allyou're going to get.
You're going to get a tatteredpiece of cloth.
Gary Pageau (23:48):
You know it's interesting.
You mentioned that.
It gets back to, I think, whatyou were saying before about
listening right, listening morethan you're talking right.
Brenda Neckvatal (23:56):
Absolutely.
I mean, you're listening forthe things that they handling
the cash.
There's some people that don'tlike handling the cash.
There are people that arereally great at figuring out
your it issues, and then there'ssome people that can barely get
(24:18):
their way out of a paperback.
I mean, it's just we're allwired differently and not and
none of it's bad.
It's just we're all extremelydifferent.
Visionary leaders they look atthe world as a stratosphere and
you're like, can you calm downnow for a minute, cause I need
to talk to you about somethingserious.
And then you've got youroperational people who are
extremely firmly grounded right.
Gary Pageau (24:40):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (24:40):
Like they're only looking at things between
5,000 to 30,000 feet.
You just have to figure out howthe people are a puzzle.
You just have to figure out howcan I take everything that
they're good at and apply ittowards my business, and if you
look at them every day that way,you're not going to see them,
as the checklist isn't beingdone.
(25:00):
They're deficient in this area.
You need to know that that'snot their strong point.
Gary Pageau (25:06):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (25:08):
And if they're not showing up, reliability is
not their strong point.
Gary Pageau (25:11):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (25:12):
Right, it's a really good example.
Gary Pageau (25:14):
So what do you do in that case?
I mean, you've hired someonefor a job and for a position, a
role you want to fill.
Then you're finding out thatreliability is not their
standpoint, right.
Or maybe, in the case of youknow a print lab, they're not so
great on quality control, right?
So what do you do?
Brenda Neckvatal (25:32):
You got to figure out what is at the heart
of it.
Right, because there's a coupleof things that you can fix.
You can fix the amount ofknowledge.
So if it's because they needsome more training, if they're
doing it because they didn'tknow something, that's an easy
fix right, you fill that gap.
If it's something to where theyjust don't have the skill set
for it, that's easy to fix, isbecause they have the gap.
(25:52):
If it's anything else otherthan that, other than those two
things, it's because there'ssomething inside of them that
they are not connecting to inthis business and right and
maybe they need to be invited togo, you know, apply their
skills elsewhere maybe, but thevery first thing is is and this
is always the big miss is thatleaders don't set the
(26:13):
expectation.
Gary Pageau (26:14):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (26:15):
Right, they immediately do exactly what you
did.
Well, maybe this personshouldn't be here.
Well, how many times did youset the expectation?
How many times did youreinforce it?
Gary Pageau (26:23):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (26:24):
And in what time frame?
Gary Pageau (26:25):
Sure.
Brenda Neckvatal (26:25):
Did you do it once when they first started,
and now we're doing it again,nine months later, when it's a
day-to-day thing, right?
Or is it like, as soon as yousee it, it's not being met?
Let's get them to correct andset the expectations, like, if
you're not doing this, I expectyou to course correct and if you
have questions, I'm here.
You know, let me know.
What do you need to besuccessful in this area?
(26:47):
Right?
People will look at you likeyou've got three heads, because
you're not used to being talkedto that way.
Gary Pageau (26:52):
Well, I was going to say, wouldn't they?
Wouldn't the response to someof those be hey, you know you're
micromanaging me.
Brenda Neckvatal (27:01):
Stop hovering.
No, that's what I'm talkingabout is trust, but verify.
Right.
Micromanaging is when.
I'll give you a really goodexample.
I'm on a phone call.
I've got a very sensitive issue.
I've got my door shut.
I'm working my way through thisproblem and the president of
the company is standing outsideof your door reminding you of
your meeting that's starting infive minutes, right?
(27:22):
And then you don't answer thedoor and then they knock again
and you're on the phone for 20minutes and they're standing at
the door waiting for you to come.
That's micromanaging that doesnot work.
Right, minutes and they'restanding at the door waiting for
you to come that'smicromanaging.
That does not work right.
But when you see somethingthat's not happening, like if
you're telling somebody to dosomething that they're already
doing or they're fixing to doand they're not given the chance
(27:44):
, that's micromanaging right.
However, if you are addressingthe gaps, that's not
micromanaging, because I think alot of people would be if
you're accusing, notmicromanaging, because I think a
lot of people would be.
Gary Pageau (27:54):
If you're accusing them of micromanaging, they're
not, they're just.
No, I'm just providing feedbackBecause I always tie
micromanaging almost to the lackof trust.
Brenda Neckvatal (28:02):
That is what motivates micromanagement.
However, there's also somethingelse that motivates
micromanagement, and that's,quite frankly, the person not
doing the job Right, and that's,quite frankly, the person not
doing the job Right.
So, when you get to a pointwhere somebody is not doing it
after being instructed threetimes within a reasonable time
period, you have two choices.
You can either micromanage thatperson and wind up spending 14
(28:23):
percent of your annual timedealing with a frontline issue,
or you can just say you have achoice right now and there are
times where I've done this andit is extremely effective but
you also have to really knowwhen to play this card.
You've had the conversationwith somebody.
You're on the fourthconversation.
If you go beyond three, this iswhen the fourth one kicks in.
(28:47):
Okay, I need you to help meunderstand.
Do you want to be here to dothis work?
Because if you don't, I'm greatif you make that decision right
now, but if you decide to stay,here's what I expect.
The choice is 100% yours.
Go Like you.
Tell me what you want to do,because we're only going to do
this for five more minutes.
Gary Pageau (29:05):
Right.
Brenda Neckvatal (29:06):
What that person is saying.
Holy crap.
Now my welfare is like totallyon the line, and now it's up to
me.
Gary Pageau (29:15):
There's a little secret about people.
Brenda Neckvatal (29:17):
People secretly love power and people
will secretly love to not thinkthat you like that power.
So when you're giving them achoice, what you're doing is
you're giving them power back,but it's a limited amount of
power.
In the scope of it, they havethe power to make the decision
right then and there and what itis that they want to do.
Right.
That's accountability.
Gary Pageau (29:39):
So you're saying people, if properly set up or
framed, will actually want totake accountability.
They'll like it.
But they have to be set up in aproper way, right?
You can't just drop it on themand say, there you go.
You got to have three to foursteps leading up to it so they
know it's coming, so they cankind of see it coming over the
hill yeah, I mean it's.
Brenda Neckvatal (29:58):
It's a conditioning, it's a learning
right, and this is not what alot of people are used to in
today's environment, but this isexactly what we grew up with
right you know, and it's stilleffective today, as it was 30,
40, 50, 70, 80, 100 years ago sodo you think that it's?
Gary Pageau (30:14):
it's the technology that's changed or what?
Because I mean, like you said,we've all been there, we've, all
you know, gone into a retailstore or someplace and you know
the person behind the counter,instead of greeting the greeting
customers, is, you know,scrolling instagram or doing
selfies or something right, isit?
Brenda Neckvatal (30:30):
I'm just curious, because I don't see
that going away like smart no,you're right gonna disappear, so
you're right, it's a there's acultural shift in the world, but
let me tell you something.
I just got off, in december, Iwas on my very first cruise.
There wasn't a person on thecruise ship you're talking about
.
Our volume was 3,500 people,max capacity on on my, on the
(30:54):
ship that I was on, which meansthat they need about 1,600 to
1,800 employees.
There wasn't a single, not one.
Not even the guys who come outwith a spray bottle or rag and
they're cleaning the letters onthe wall to help you know where
you are right.
There was a single person thatwasn't willing to help you out,
(31:15):
wasn't willing to say hello, wasunbelievably friendly, right,
right, accommodating, joyous,like they were happy to to be
able to meet and at least getand help you solve your problem,
right, not one.
All the way from the captain tothe guys that were slinging the
(31:36):
lines on the side of the shipnot one.
And I talked to I couldn't eventell you how many people I
talked to and my friend that waswith me.
She kept watching me.
She was it's amazing watchingyou.
Just like engage with people.
I said I'm curious where they'refrom.
They say they're from africa.
I want to know about it right,not a single person.
So you can't tell me, on asecluded ship with all those
(31:56):
people that are on board, whenyou've got cantankerous
customers and people who aredrunk and hung over and they
just want to be left alone orthey want everything you know
served to.
There's a wide variety ofpeople on a ship.
The entire staff holds to thesame level of expectation.
Doesn't matter if it's aFortune 500 company or a large
company or whatever.
That's just on one ship, it'sout there.
Erin Manning (32:19):
It can be done.
Brenda Neckvatal (32:20):
Those people are out there, I promise.
Gary Pageau (32:22):
It can be done.
Brenda Neckvatal (32:23):
It absolutely can be done.
You spend a week on a cruiseship and you will understand
that in seven days you'll get itlike there are people that are
still out there.
Gary Pageau (32:33):
Well, that's cool.
So where can people go for moreinformation about Brenda and
all the cool things?
I mean, have you published thehey Brenda hotline?
Brenda Neckvatal (32:42):
Yeah, I know, I should get that URL, shouldn't
I?
So, actually, the easiest wayto find me and this is funny
because my business partner, mybusiness partner does this when
he gets on the phone, he says yo, that's how he says hi.
So I came up with yo brendacom,because it's a lot easier than
trying to spell my last name.
If you go to yo brendacom, I'mactually going to give you guys
(33:03):
something that is going to helpand you can put it to work
immediately, right?
So, when you want more clarityout of your leadership, you want
more cohesion.
It's going to help you buildmore confidence, and this is
something that I call impactscripts.
If you want to start making animpact to your team, making an
impact to your day, so you don'tfeel like you know you're
(33:25):
jumping through hoops andsolving everybody's problems.
This is going to help youachieve that.
Listen more, talk less it'sgoing to help you achieve.
Ask good questions You're goingto help you achieve that.
Listen more, talk less it'sgoing to help you achieve.
Ask good questions You're goingto get good answers, especially
that one.
Ok, and so impact.
So if you go to your Brenda dotcom, what you're going to do is
you put in your name, you putin your email and it's going to
ask you a question.
(33:46):
It's going to ask you what wasthe one thing that wowed you?
Today, you're going to be ableto take the course.
It's totally free, 100%.
And these are my three topphrases that I use all the time,
especially when I'm dealingwith difficult people, and I'll
give you an example of one ofthem.
You ever have that one personthat comes in and that's
constantly telling you about howbad Bob is.
And Bob sucks, and you knowBob's thinking this about you
(34:08):
and Bob thinks that you're doingbecause you know you make this
decision and all of a sudden,because Bob it's like well, how
do you know what's on Bob's mind, right?
So now you've got a conflictwith Bob.
One of the things that I havewhen people who are just so
caught up into this thing, I'llask them why do you believe that
is?
Why do you believe it is thatBob doesn't like you?
Why do you believe that Bob isintentionally setting out to
(34:32):
make your life a living hell?
Help me understand that.
Right, that is a great question, because what it does is it
pulls the person's ego out ofthe conversation, right?
And it requires them to giveyou information, if it's
something.
Because Bob has told me hedoesn't like me.
Bob is telling me that hedoesn't like the smell of my
(34:54):
perfume because Bob is tellingme that he's, you know, done
something stupid to my coffeeRight now.
You got something to work with,right.
But if they keep coming out andsay, well, it's just because
this is how he is and this ishow he approaches and this is
what I'm like, ok, now that'sego, because that's somebody
trying to interpret somethingthat actually isn't really
happening Right Now.
You know what you're dealingwith.
(35:14):
You're either dealing withdrama or you're dealing with
real facts, right.
So let's take your exampleearlier of the person coming in
late, right, your printer notshowing up the next time they
come in is help me understandwhy you are not coming into work
on time.
And then you shut up.
And it's amazing because itwill force them to answer the
(35:35):
question without this egogetting in the way and without
all of this cultural shift stuffthat's coming in and all of
these lame excuses.
Right, they'll try the lameexcuse, but that is a hard
conversation for them to beat.
Gary Pageau (35:48):
Right.
Well, yeah, I've heard thelatest is time blindness that
now people are afflicted withtime blindness.
Right, they can't judge time,so they are always late, right.
Brenda Neckvatal (35:59):
You know, every second grader knows how to
read a damn clock these days.
Every phone has an alarm clock.
Yeah, I mean, I swear to God,iphone has replaced Mickey Mouse
watches.
I mean, I swear to God, iphonehas replaced Mickey Mouse
watches, exactly.
Gary Pageau (36:14):
So everyone needs to go to YoBrenda that's
Y-O-Brenda.
com to get these three powerfulstatements that people can learn
.
Well, thank you, Brenda, foryour time.
It's been great.
Thank you for bringing back thememories of Donnie and Marie
Osmond and learning more abouthow to manage people in this
(36:34):
very fraught time.
So thank you so much.
Brenda Neckvatal (36:37):
Thank you for having me on, I appreciate it.
Erin Manning (36:40):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
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