March 6, 2025 • 34 mins
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In this episode, Matt Bailey, a digital marketing expert with more than 20 years of experience, takes us through his journey, starting from building websites in the '90s to now focusing on effective marketing education. He shares insights about the evolution of digital marketing and highlights why businesses must focus on their best customers. With a powerful message on the misconception that more traffic equals more sales, he challenges listeners to think differently about their marketing strategies.
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:02):
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry'sleading news source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by Matt
Bailey, who's a digital marketerwith a company called SiteLogic
, and he's from Canton, Ohio,and we've just been giggling for
the last 20 minutes justsharing stories about marketing,
small business and what thereal world is like out there.
(00:40):
Hi, Matt, how are you today?
Matt Bailey (00:41):
Oh, I'm doing great , Gary.
Thanks for having me on.
I hope we haven't covered toomuch in the preamble, because
there's actually a lot I want toask you about.
Oh,Oh
, I'm sure there's a lot more wecould get to.
(01:19):
a
Gary Pageau (00:54):
So tell me about Matt Bailey and how he got into
digital marketing.
Matt Bailey (01:00):
Well, I don't want to go too long, I'll just say
about mid-90s I was in the realestate business and you know I
was a kid, Gary, and I startedbuilding 12, 13 years old yeah
yeah, 13 years old, I startedbuilding websites because we had
some commercial properties likeBen Breakfast Inns and things
(01:21):
like that.
So I started building websitesto get more exposure for that,
because at that point you eitherbuilding websites to get more
exposure for that because atthat point you either had the
newspaper, the local LMS, youcould take a full page color ad
in Southern Living for 40 grand.
So I figured, you know, let'stry this out.
And within months of gettingthose websites up, we were
(01:41):
getting leads, massive amountsof leads from at that time it
was Yahoo, altavista, you know,when Google started coming in,
and so the vast majority ofleads we were getting on these
properties were coming from theinternet, and so it didn't take
too long for me to realize thatthis internet thing was going to
be a whole lot more fun thanreal estate, especially before
(02:03):
2000.
So from there, you know, all Ihad to do was show up at an
agency and say I know SEO and Icould get hired almost anywhere,
because that's what people werestarting to ask for.
So that's what launched me intothe career.
I've been in the agency worldfor years, then started my own
agency and then, because of,I've just got a passion for
(02:27):
teaching and teaching others,and so I worked with a lot of
organizations in teaching theirmemberships how to do marketing.
Eventually, I sold off theclient services, went full on
into the training side, andthat's what I've been doing for
the past 10 years.
Gary Pageau (02:42):
So in the nineties, where were you getting the
resources to learn things?
Because there weren't YouTubetutorials, there weren't Matt
Bailey's out there.
So what was that like Was this alot of trial and error.
How did you learn so back then?
Matt Bailey (02:56):
hat you may remember this, Gary, there were
forums.
Forums where CompuServe yeah,CompuServe, but then just
text-based forums where peoplewould share information.
And I loved it because I mean,here's the difference We've got
things like X and all thesewords very short, but forums,
(03:17):
people would write paragraphs ofwhat I've learned, what I saw,
and then there would be debate,and that was a great way of
learning, but also, I will say,a lot of it was just trial and
error what works, what doesn'twork.
And I remember I picked up abook oh, I can't remember when
it was, but it was called-.
Gary Pageau (03:37):
It was called SEO, then really was it.
Matt Bailey (03:39):
No, it was well.
It was at the beginning stages,but I picked up a book that
called Websites that Don't Suck.
I think I had that, yeah, andit was great because that's what
taught me about user experienceand the interface and learning
that it's not only just gettingpeople to the site, it's making
(04:02):
it easier for them to use.
And so that's what formed a lotof my decision-making and
growth, because when I had myagency, where we created value
for people, yes, we couldincrease the amount of traffic
coming to their site when wereally hit it out of the park
(04:22):
was improving the site so thatthe people who were coming could
more easily find what theyneeded, and so looking and
finding where those roadblockswere and taking them out.
You know there's a couple ofsites.
You know we doubled their salesovernight because we found
where the roadblocks were andfixed them.
Gary Pageau (04:44):
What was the biggest misconception that you
had going in in the 90s?
You learned, or that surprisedyou, I guess.
Matt Bailey (04:53):
Misconception?
I don't know.
I feel like everything was aconception at that point.
Gary Pageau (04:57):
It was just Well the reason why I said I remember
that it was kind of the WildWest back then, right yeah?
Matt Bailey (05:02):
Well, my wife would always say you know, know, it
is ignorance and enthusiasm,right, this is why you love it
is is there's no rules there,there's just, oh, that didn't
work.
Let's try this.
And I think that excitement isreally what carried it and made
it what it was.
Is you never know what you weregoing to see that day?
You never, you know.
(05:23):
You just sit down and go to it.
And but I will say one of thethings, another forming instance
is when I sat down and tried tofigure out I've got two hours
to work tonight on this.
Where am I going to spend thattime?
Do I spend it, you know, addingmore properties?
Do I spend it doing follow-up?
(05:43):
Do I spend it doing these typesof things?
And that question drove me tolearn analytics and measurement
and learning what's reallydriving business.
And I learned from that pointon more leads and more visits
don't necessarily mean morebusiness.
(06:05):
Right, and that was probablythe biggest.
I won't say it's amisconception, it was more.
You know, it's an assumption.
Right and because I would haveclients constantly saying I want
to you know, I want more visitsand I would have to ask them do
you want more visits or do youwant more business?
Gary Pageau (06:23):
Right.
Matt Bailey (06:24):
They're not the same.
So learning that is really whatthen propelled our business my
ability to communicate tobusinesses.
Here's how to set goals.
Here's how to build strategy.
Here's how to measure success.
Gary Pageau (06:42):
Now I'm just curious, because you've worked
with businesses of differentsizes and I'm thinking back in
those early days.
You probably ran into a bit ofconflict in the organization
because you have your marketingcontact right, the person who's
hired you to do this, andthey're like we want visits, we
want to see those numbers, yes,we don't care how we get it.
And then but it's like butwe're not making sales.
(07:04):
Well, sales is somebody else,that's somebody else's concern.
Right, my concern is how didyou manage that sort of thing?
Because I remember back thenthat was a lot of the conflict
back then copywriters, but alsowith graphic artists.
Matt Bailey (07:22):
Because, they wanted to build the site like
this, and I'm coming in saying,oh no, we need much more
contrast.
That can't be a graphic, itneeds to be HTML.
So I think, personally, I hadmore conflict with graphic
artists because I came from asales background and so I could
speak the sales language andshow them.
(07:43):
And here's where probably thebiggest thing was is I had to
persuade them.
The more content you put on thesite, the easier the sale will
be.
Gary Pageau (07:52):
Right.
Matt Bailey (07:53):
Because everyone their idea was well, we need to
keep information back.
We just need to get them tocall us, and I was trying to
convince them that they willcall if they don't have
confidence or if you don't spurthat question.
And so that was the mainconflict is how much information
do we give to get a call, toget an email?
(08:15):
That was a lot of fun but,again, coming from a sales
background, that enabled me towork with them a little bit more
and sell the idea and finally,you know, and then when they saw
it happening, that that wasjust that was a great time.
Gary Pageau (08:34):
So moving forward, right.
So you get into your own agencydoing your own thing what
changed.
The reason why I say is becauseyou know I've run into people.
Now those are, they're stillasking those same questions,
right?
Erin Manning (08:44):
I don't?
Gary Pageau (08:45):
I think you've hit on a universal problem, that
even though the foundationaltechnology has changed, and
maybe some of the attitudesregarding change.
I mean, you were talking aboutenthusiasm.
I think a lot of marketingtoday is more desperation and
cynicism than it is.
Enthusiasm than it is.
You know, enthusiasm, right,yeah, but overall, I mean, is
(09:06):
there anything new reallyhappening in or in the
objectives?
I guess in the way, yeah, yeah.
Matt Bailey (09:12):
You know it hasn't changed much.
I will say that the windowdressing changes every week,
right, but it's still the samewindow.
It's still put information outthere that people are looking
for, right?
That is the basic thing thathas not changed.
And put it out there in a waythat people can find it, that
(09:35):
they can use it and that alsoconnects with them at some level
, whether it's giving themconfidence that you can do it,
building curiosity that maybethese guys can help me.
It's that same basic idea hasalways been the same.
It's just a matter of howyou're going to execute it, how
(09:56):
you're going to build or developit.
But I will say, right now, theproblem is there's so many shiny
objects and we get a new one.
you know, and we were talking alittle bit earlier and I I
realized this was next to me andthis is the, the course I'm
teaching at my university.
Look at how thick that book isof principles of marketing.
(10:17):
Here's the thing this waspublished only like two years
ago and they're talking abouthow the metaverse is the next
biggest thing.
You know, and I'm laughing, I'mlike I'm going to make this the
centerpiece of my course,because there's so many shiny
objects if you don't know whatworks, why it works right and
(10:39):
and how to affect that thenyou're going to get caught up in
the shiny objects.
Gary Pageau (10:44):
Yeah, you know it's funny.
We were talking again earlierabout the course I teach in the
prison system, which somelisteners know about.
I teach a course onentrepreneurship and I run in
the same thing with my book,because I think it was published
in 2016 or something.
Erin Manning (10:57):
And it talks about like.
Gary Pageau (10:59):
This is a search engine and this is how it works.
But again, the principles arethe same.
That's why it's still a validthing, but it is so.
When you talk about finding outwhat people are looking for,
the challenge a lot of mylisteners run into is they make
stuff and they want to sell thethings that they make, but
(11:24):
sometimes that's not the stuffthat customers are looking for.
So how should they deal withthat?
Right, you know?
Let's say, for example, theyjust bought a new press and they
really want to feed that press,but the customer may not even
be aware of what it can do orsee the advantage of it.
Matt Bailey (11:40):
Yeah, well, and that, so that gets to your
marketing strategy and howyou're positioning yourself.
So you know, for example,Starbucks, red Bull Coke, they
sell caffeine drinks, that's it.
However, what do they marketthemselves at?
You know, what do they say theydo?
(12:02):
And there's a big, bigdifference.
There's that functional thingof what we do, and then there is
the what I would say is more ofthe marketing view of what we
do.
Are you selling pictures ormemories?
Right, one has an emotionaldraw to it, the other one does
not.
Gary Pageau (12:21):
Right.
Matt Bailey (12:21):
It's more functional and so it's coming up
with that bridge offunctionally.
This is what I do, but this ishow I change people's lives.
Gary Pageau (12:31):
Right.
Matt Bailey (12:31):
This is how I make an impact, and it's that
statement and that idea that allof a sudden broadens out your
audience and what they'relooking for.
I'm not just looking for apicture, I'm looking for a way
to, you know, immortalize amoment and memories.
It's emotion and and that'swhat you're it's thinking about
(12:58):
the satisfaction that you'rebringing someone once they have
it, once they've done it, andwhen you think about that end
result, that's what you'reselling and so that's that
connection, because so manytimes people get locked into
that functional mode or and it'sjust how far does this go?
Gary Pageau (13:19):
Yeah, and that's part of the challenge in the
marketing in the photo industry,right?
Well, we're recording this fulldisclosure during the fourth
quarter of 2024.
So there's a lot of discountingand you know, buy one, get ones
, and you know 20% off, 30% offdeals are going on because
there's a lot of that urgencyand that's not that message.
(13:39):
And the problem you run into, Ithink, especially in my
industry, is, you know, onceyou've gone down that path, it's
hard to switch to a valuemessage.
Matt Bailey (13:49):
Yeah.
So I did a lot of work with thedirect marketing industry around
you know the 2000s into the2010s and it was always fun to
talk to people who were catalogretailers that had these type of
businesses, and I remembertalking to one person
specifically who said I willnever offer a discount unless
(14:13):
it's to an existing customerBecause they've shown their
loyalty They've shown Now here'swhy that's changed is Amazon.
Amazon has made everyone believethat shipping is free and it's
immediate, and one of the greatpieces of advice I got is if you
see something you like onAmazon, go to the retailer, go
(14:34):
to the person that sells it, andchances are they'll offer you
10%, which takes care of theshipping.
You know it's now, we've beenconditioned for that and but you
can also feed that beast.
You offer a discount and I'mguilty of this.
If you offer me a discount, I'mgoing to wait for the next
discount.
I've got something sitting in ashopping cart right now,
(14:54):
because I'm waiting for theabandoned cart discount.
I'm going to wait for the nextdiscount.
I've got something sitting in ashopping cart right now, right,
because I'm waiting for theabandoned cart discount.
Erin Manning (14:59):
Right.
Matt Bailey (14:59):
I'm waiting for a sale, so it's.
You are training people withdiscounts when you keep offering
them, so it's.
But and that's the thing, doyou offer it to get a new
customer?
Do you offer it as a reward forcustomers?
And so that's a lot.
When we can get into thebusiness side of things is do
(15:20):
you reward customers and at whatlevel do you reward customers?
And how do you work withcustomers then, not just order
from us when you feel like it?
How are you communicating tothe people that spent $1,000
with you this past year?
How are you communicating topeople that spent $5,000 with
you the past year?
(15:40):
When we talk about marketing, Ithink like 80%, 90% of what
people think about is top offunnel.
It's getting new customers, andwe tend to forget to take care
of those that are already on ourmailing list past buyers,
buyers in the past year, thosetype of things.
Gary Pageau (15:58):
And you've reached an interesting point, because I
think you know discount is easyright, it's just easy to do.
But the reality is is, at leastin the photographic industry,
whether you're in the hardwareside or the output side or the
capture side you're trying tobuild a relationship for ongoing
business, right, because youare dealing with people's
personal uh image or theirpersonal memories, or they're
(16:20):
trying to decorate their homeand have it be their taste and
all those things.
That's really an advantage thatthe industry has over.
Let's say, you know, I'm justselling a uh, you know, towels
or something like that.
Yes, so do you have anyguidelines on, like, how often a
business like that should becommunicating with customers,
(16:42):
because you kind of want to,don't want to give them too much
information all the time, justbecause it's annoying yeah, yeah
, this time of the year versusyou know just, you want to
remind people that you existright, and you can't always rely
on social media for that,because that's kind of outside
of your ability to control thealgorithm.
Matt Bailey (17:01):
It is, and with social media you're only going
to reach 2% maybe of the peoplethat follow you.
And I think also we could gointo an assumption that people
follow brands.
They don't normally do that.
However, they do get emails andyou know, especially this time
(17:22):
of year, email is powerful.
Email drives more sales thansocial it always has, because
it's that one-on-one.
And now I will say, measuringemail is getting harder.
We don't know how many peopleopened.
I mean, it was always a fuzzymetric to begin with.
Gary Pageau (17:40):
Right.
Matt Bailey (17:40):
However, we can look at clicks.
Clicks are something that arehard I can go by that and so
looking at who opens your email,who clicks on your email,
seeing if I've sent four emailsin the past three months, who's
clicked on them.
Erin Manning (17:58):
Right.
Matt Bailey (17:58):
Those are the people who are actively looking
and reading and seeing what'sthere.
I can segment those andcommunicate to them differently
than to people who maybe haveonly clicked on an email once in
the past year.
Right, and so a lot of it isjust.
You know, we do the same thingin face-to-face.
We communicate with peopledifferently based on our level
(18:19):
of relationship.
We need to do the same thing inour marketing, our emails and
things like that.
Gary Pageau (18:24):
When you're talking with people who are you know,
similar businesses right Like,consumer goods businesses like
and you talk about chasing theshiny, which is it was a phrase
I liked.
I like to use a lot too,because I do see a lot of people
guilty about.
What are some of the thingspeople should look at before
they decide to try somethingshiny and new, right Cause, like
(18:45):
I said, I've had photoretailers going.
You know, I've already got theFacebook, I've already got the
Instagram, I've already got theLinkedIn for my corporate
accounts.
Do I need TikTok?
Right?
No one needs TikTok.
Matt Bailey (18:55):
Yeah, yeah.
My first question is where'sthe money coming from?
Right, right, where?
Where are you going to pullthis budget?
Because are you going to add tothe budget for that or are you
going to pull?
You know one story I tell peopleconstantly.
I worked with a consumer goodsretailer and they got sold on
(19:16):
social commerce.
This was a couple years ago.
Uh, through instagram, acompany sold them and and we
were working on their website aswell as their marketing and,
and I cautioned about doing andthis was like probably late
summer, early fall againchristmas is their biggest sales
time and they pulled money outof their paid search budget.
(19:41):
They pulled money out of theiremail budget, and I'm trying to
tell them you shouldn't do this.
Then they came back.
They lost everything.
Everything that they put intothe social commerce did not
produce anything, and not onlythat, it damaged their business
and it took them years torecover.
And they asked me why?
Well, I told them, like everydollar you put into paid search,
(20:05):
you were making at least $5 inreturn.
So not only did you miss that$5 return on ad spend, every
dollar you took out of that adspend hurt you even more.
I said your two best channelswere paid search and email, and
(20:27):
you pulled budget out of both inorder to try something new.
That's why I tell people knowwhat works and why, and because
if you don't know, you could bepulling budget from an area that
is working great.
But if you don't know, andagain, just throwing money at a
(20:50):
channel does not necessarilymean it's going to work.
This gets to like, you know,just our typical talk.
Gary, how are you going to useit?
Did you think about that?
Because if you use TikTok, well, who's going to shoot the video
?
Who's going to edit it?
What's going to be yourschedule?
How are you going to talk aboutit?
And one of the things I don'tthink people realize is every
(21:11):
single one of these socialchannels is it's a game, right?
If you're going to besuccessful at a channel, you
have to have a game, and by thatI mean you can't look at other
people's numbers and comparebecause you don't know how they
got those.
Especially in social, there's alot of social.
Gary Pageau (21:32):
Yeah.
Matt Bailey (21:32):
You know, and when you start digging in and reading
how to create audience, how tocreate things like that, very
little of it is organic.
Right, there is a lot of pay.
You know, back in the day weused to call it the payola.
Yeah, you know, if you'repaying DJs to play your music.
Gary Pageau (21:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Bailey (21:52):
Essentially, that's what's going on in social media
Right, You're paying companiesto boost.
You're paying companies toboost.
You're paying companies tofollow.
So many of these metrics areinflated or overdone.
We see things go viral and weassume it's organic.
It is 99.999% of the time it'snot organic.
(22:13):
It was done by an agency andthey had the means to make it
happen.
Gary Pageau (22:18):
But let's not be on the negative side and say you
shouldn't try new things.
I'm just saying I mean thereare things that you want to try,
but the reality is is don'tkill the golden goose to do it.
Use, maybe try it, but don'tuse.
Don't pull out of your budget.
Add to your budget, dosomething different.
Matt Bailey (22:35):
You know, that's why I guess and have a way to
measure it.
Absolutely, and that's the thingI tell people.
You can try a new channel, butultimately, here, my, my first
bit of advice is find onechannel and do great.
Don't do three channels midwayRight.
Do one thing, great, and whenyou've mastered it, now figure
(22:58):
out which channel should we lookat from here.
What's next?
You know, and you might besurprised when you start looking
to see where these communitiesare, of people that not only
would like your product but aregoing to tell others about it.
That'll take pictures of theirwhat they got and send it and
show it to other people.
It that'll take pictures ofwhat they got and send it and
(23:21):
show it to other people.
It's not just a matter of whichplatform's the biggest.
It's where the people are thatwill be the most appreciative
and the most engaging, andthat's part of it.
The new is not always the best.
It's finding where thosecommunities are.
Gary Pageau (23:35):
If you're a local business, you know and you've
got, you know, a three to fivemile trading area right, like
most people, for your brick andmortar.
How do you find where thepeople are right?
I'm talking to your regular,everyday business owner, who's
not a marketing expert, who youknow is just dealing with the
day to day.
How does that person find thepeople?
Matt Bailey (23:56):
The best thing that you can do is build that Google
my Business profile.
That is number one for alocally based business.
You are going to get moremileage out of that than you
will building a website andputting all kinds of things
trying to get a bigger audience.
Your Google business profile isgoing to be, first, what Google
(24:22):
shows people.
Connect it to your website.
There's a number of things youcan do and engage with it.
Update it.
Google my Business is one ofthose things.
The more effort you put into it, the more you're going to see.
I work with a couple of localbusinesses.
I've developed their businessprofile and, by the way, anyone
that wants to charge you to doit, come on, you can do this.
(24:45):
You can do it in a weekend.
Don't pay someone else to dothis, but then also log into it
once a week, double check yourhours, double check the things
that you've got there and if youcan upload pictures.
That is what's going to movethings.
And as people start leavingreviews about your business and,
by the way, you can grab a linkand you can send it to
(25:07):
customers with an invitation forthem to leave a review about
your business.
So the more active you are inthe profile, the more pictures
you load and the more ratingsyou get.
The more exposure you load andthe more ratings you get, the
more exposure your local listingwill get in Google compared to
your website.
And then over time the wordsthat people search for will
(25:32):
become broader and your locallisting will come up more
frequently.
At first it'll come up for yourbusiness name, but as you grow
that reputation it's going tobroaden out into more terms that
Google's going to associate andif you're active, you are
building that profile, you'regoing to get that visibility.
Gary Pageau (25:53):
So I mean, and like you said, it's something you
can do in your spare time,because one of your resources is
a book called Marketing in OneHour, right?
So you think most people can dothis without investing a crazy
amount of time, because that'swhat I always hear from a lot of
my audiences.
You know, I'd love to do thisstuff, but I just don't have
time.
Erin Manning (26:12):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (26:13):
But you're saying you do have time, but you got to
have the discipline to do it.
Matt Bailey (26:17):
Yeah, the business profile is the easiest thing to
do.
You know I work with a lot ofyou know small businesses and I
tell them the easiest thing youcan do is take a picture of what
you do, take a picture of thebefore and after.
Put that in.
You know, I know people don'thave time to sit around and
write 2000 word pages for a blogand that's the thing People,
(26:39):
when they hear content, that'swhat they think of.
But no, you know, take a shortvideo.
You know I work with a plumber.
I tell them, like, just take ashort video of some of the worst
things that you see in a dayand explain why it's so bad.
Put that on your businessprofile, put it on your website.
Gary Pageau (26:56):
That's the type of thing people want to see okay,
I'm surprised you would say thatfor your business profile,
because usually when I think ofthe business profile I think of
like the store, the back room,the trucks, the retail area.
So you're even talking aboutlike things out in the field,
like gary, do you remember the?
Matt Bailey (27:16):
the show dirty jobs ?
Absolutely, that's what I'mtalking about, right?
Gary Pageau (27:21):
people are fascinated to see but that's
okay for a google profile.
Matt Bailey (27:24):
That's what I'm saying yeah, well, think about
and here's the thing, thinkabout the problems people run
into.
Right, you know, with a plumber, we don't call plumbers three
months before we need them.
That's right, you know.
Same, you know withian.
It might be a little different,but it's it's.
Think about the things ahomeowner might run into where,
(27:46):
all of a sudden, they realizeI'm in over my head.
Maybe they go online andthey're looking and if they see
on your profile oh, this guy'sseen this before he's explaining
why it's so bad or or why Ineed what I need to do Maybe
they'll learn, maybe they'llcall you know it's.
It's that behind the scenes.
That that's why, you know, Iuse the dirty jobs example.
People are fascinated with whatpeople do, sure, and they'll
(28:11):
sit and watch.
Gary Pageau (28:13):
Absolutely.
Oh, I agree, I just have notheard of someone using the
Google profile.
I mean, hear people do youtubefor that you know.
But yeah, but youtube's adifferent.
Matt Bailey (28:24):
Do both okay doing both okay, it doesn't hurt you
to do both google owns youtube,so they love that too yeah,
exactly, yeah when it comes tomarketing, we're you know we're
doing.
Gary Pageau (28:34):
So let's recap a little bit avoid the shiny, have
discipline.
You can do this.
Don't kill the golden goose.
What is something else that youwould share with somebody about
that you tell the big companiesyou work with.
I mean, what I find surprising,I'm sure, is big companies have
these same problems as littlecompanies.
It's almost.
It's just on a different scale.
Matt Bailey (28:56):
Oh, it's on a completely different scale.
Things go slower.
There are things you cannotchange because you're not in
charge of that.
Somebody else is.
It's absolutely frustrating towork with a larger company who
won't move or move quickly.
There is an advantage to beingthe one who calls the shots.
(29:16):
You can move very quickly.
Large companies I find you knowmy own experience.
I spend more time presentingwhy we need to take action than
actually taking action.
You need to get more peoplesigned off, you need to justify
it and I will say from you knowit can be fun but it can be
(29:38):
frustrating as well.
And so, yeah, I've got friendsand clients, you know, in all
different areas and it's justthey all have their nuance to it
.
The people that I train inagencies, I train them
differently than the people thatare in large companies with you
know, a 20 person marketingdepartment or a hundred person
marketing department or a 100person marketing department, the
(29:59):
expectations are different, theobjectives are different,
measurements are different, andwhen you've got politics thrown
in, that's just icing on thecake so one of the things that I
hear from people is I need newcustomers, I need new people, I
need new people, but from what Iwas understanding're saying,
before you're saying, doubledown on the your existing people
(30:23):
, your current customers, canyou tell me how that results in
new customers?
Gary Pageau (30:29):
Cause I I think I know what you're going to say,
but it does actually bring younew customers by by focusing on
your current customer base.
Matt Bailey (30:36):
Yeah, well, it starts with asking who's my best
customer.
Gary Pageau (30:40):
Right.
Matt Bailey (30:41):
And now, what I love about that question is it
can be interpreted in a coupleof different ways.
Is it financially, who's mybest customer, right?
Is it socially, who's my?
You know, I've got a lot ofbusinesses I work with and, yeah
, these people spend a lot ofmoney, but these people, they
are actively posting,recommending, you know, and or I
(31:06):
love working with these people,right, you know they may not
spend a lot, but I love workingwith them.
So how do you interpret that?
What's you know?
I ask any businesses, what'syour goal?
Is your goal to find morepeople that you have fun working
with, or is your goal to findmore people who spend more?
How are you going to definethat question?
(31:26):
Because that's going todetermine.
Now let's go look at the data.
Let's go see who these peopleare that you define as your best
customers.
Now let's develop a campaignthat rewards, that promotes,
that helps them tell othersabout you.
That's ultimately what we'regoing to do, and that's where
(31:48):
the swag comes in.
I'm wearing swag here thismorning.
I don't know if you can see.
It's an analytics company.
They saw that I was talkingabout them.
They sent me a sweatshirt, so Italk about them even more.
That's how it works.
You know, and we're workingwith a company right now and you
know we look to see how manypeople were talking about their
(32:11):
product online and we weresurprised that not only did they
talk about the product, theytalk about how much they love it
.
And so, you know, our biggestpiece of advice is you need to
put together a box of swag andget that out to them, get it out
to their teams, get it out tothem.
Reward them for what they'redoing for you.
(32:33):
There was one client that wasour best promotion.
That was our best campaign wasrewarding the people that were
actively talking about itproduced more than any of the
social media stuff we did,because it was them doing it.
Again, what kind of customer doyou want?
Find them and reward them andcome up with a way to engage
(32:56):
them even more.
Back in the day, gary, youprobably did this as well.
We had user groups, right.
You know where you get thatdirect one-on-one feedback.
It's also where we got ideasfor new products.
Sure, I think in thiselectronic age, we do a lot more
assuming and less communicating.
Gary Pageau (33:13):
Speaking of communication, how can people
get more information about MattBailey's SiteL ogic, and the
things that you offer in termsof training and resources?
Matt Bailey (33:23):
Thank you, Gary.
I appreciate the opportunityfor an ad.
They can go to SiteLogic andthat is S-I-T-E,
sitelogicmarketingcom or evenjust sitelogiccom.
I've got courses on digitalmarketing In fact, we talked
about the local marketing andI've got a course on Google, my
(33:45):
Business.
It is free and that's my hook.
You can also take courses onSEO, on content marketing, how
to find customers, how to buildcustomer insights, and all of my
courses my paid courses arecoached courses.
They are active learning.
So you're going to getassignments, and this assignment
can be about your own business,Right, and so you will build
(34:08):
strategy for your own business.
You will build campaigns andI'm going to be with you every
step of the way, looking at yourassignments, giving you
feedback and building your ownskills for your business.
Gary Pageau (34:21):
Awesome, well, great man.
It's been great getting to knowyou and learning more about
your business and your offeringsand the education you offer,
because it sounds cool and I'mgoing to check it out.
So thank you so much.
Matt Bailey (34:31):
Thank you, Gary.
It's been a lot of fun beinghere.
I appreciate it and, yeah, it'sbeen a great conversation.
Erin Manning (34:36):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the
photo imaging industry'sleading news source.
Here's your host, Gary Pageau.
The Dead Pixels Society podcastis brought to you by Mediaclip,
Advertek Printing, andIndependent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau (00:18):
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
I'm your host, Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by Matt
Bailey, who's a digital marketerwith a company called SiteLogic
, and he's from Canton, Ohio,and we've just been giggling for
the last 20 minutes justsharing stories about marketing,
small business and what thereal world is like out there.
(00:40):
Hi, Matt, how are you today?
Matt Bailey (00:41):
Oh, I'm doing great , Gary.
Thanks for having me on.
I hope we haven't covered toomuch in the preamble, because
there's actually a lot I want toask you about.
Oh,Oh
, I'm sure there's a lot more wecould get to.
(01:19):
a
Gary Pageau (00:54):
So tell me about Matt Bailey and how he got into
digital marketing.
Matt Bailey (01:00):
Well, I don't want to go too long, I'll just say
about mid-90s I was in the realestate business and you know I
was a kid, Gary, and I startedbuilding 12, 13 years old yeah
yeah, 13 years old, I startedbuilding websites because we had
some commercial properties likeBen Breakfast Inns and things
(01:21):
like that.
So I started building websitesto get more exposure for that,
because at that point you eitherbuilding websites to get more
exposure for that because atthat point you either had the
newspaper, the local LMS, youcould take a full page color ad
in Southern Living for 40 grand.
So I figured, you know, let'stry this out.
And within months of gettingthose websites up, we were
(01:41):
getting leads, massive amountsof leads from at that time it
was Yahoo, altavista, you know,when Google started coming in,
and so the vast majority ofleads we were getting on these
properties were coming from theinternet, and so it didn't take
too long for me to realize thatthis internet thing was going to
be a whole lot more fun thanreal estate, especially before
(02:03):
2000.
So from there, you know, all Ihad to do was show up at an
agency and say I know SEO and Icould get hired almost anywhere,
because that's what people werestarting to ask for.
So that's what launched me intothe career.
I've been in the agency worldfor years, then started my own
agency and then, because of,I've just got a passion for
(02:27):
teaching and teaching others,and so I worked with a lot of
organizations in teaching theirmemberships how to do marketing.
Eventually, I sold off theclient services, went full on
into the training side, andthat's what I've been doing for
the past 10 years.
Gary Pageau (02:42):
So in the nineties, where were you getting the
resources to learn things?
Because there weren't YouTubetutorials, there weren't Matt
Bailey's out there.
So what was that like Was this alot of trial and error.
How did you learn so back then?
Matt Bailey (02:56):
hat you may remember this, Gary, there were
forums.
Forums where CompuServe yeah,CompuServe, but then just
text-based forums where peoplewould share information.
And I loved it because I mean,here's the difference We've got
things like X and all thesewords very short, but forums,
(03:17):
people would write paragraphs ofwhat I've learned, what I saw,
and then there would be debate,and that was a great way of
learning, but also, I will say,a lot of it was just trial and
error what works, what doesn'twork.
And I remember I picked up abook oh, I can't remember when
it was, but it was called-.
Gary Pageau (03:37):
It was called SEO, then really was it.
Matt Bailey (03:39):
No, it was well.
It was at the beginning stages,but I picked up a book that
called Websites that Don't Suck.
I think I had that, yeah, andit was great because that's what
taught me about user experienceand the interface and learning
that it's not only just gettingpeople to the site, it's making
(04:02):
it easier for them to use.
And so that's what formed a lotof my decision-making and
growth, because when I had myagency, where we created value
for people, yes, we couldincrease the amount of traffic
coming to their site when wereally hit it out of the park
(04:22):
was improving the site so thatthe people who were coming could
more easily find what theyneeded, and so looking and
finding where those roadblockswere and taking them out.
You know there's a couple ofsites.
You know we doubled their salesovernight because we found
where the roadblocks were andfixed them.
Gary Pageau (04:44):
What was the biggest misconception that you
had going in in the 90s?
You learned, or that surprisedyou, I guess.
Matt Bailey (04:53):
Misconception?
I don't know.
I feel like everything was aconception at that point.
Gary Pageau (04:57):
It was just Well the reason why I said I remember
that it was kind of the WildWest back then, right yeah?
Matt Bailey (05:02):
Well, my wife would always say you know, know, it
is ignorance and enthusiasm,right, this is why you love it
is is there's no rules there,there's just, oh, that didn't
work.
Let's try this.
And I think that excitement isreally what carried it and made
it what it was.
Is you never know what you weregoing to see that day?
You never, you know.
(05:23):
You just sit down and go to it.
And but I will say one of thethings, another forming instance
is when I sat down and tried tofigure out I've got two hours
to work tonight on this.
Where am I going to spend thattime?
Do I spend it, you know, addingmore properties?
Do I spend it doing follow-up?
(05:43):
Do I spend it doing these typesof things?
And that question drove me tolearn analytics and measurement
and learning what's reallydriving business.
And I learned from that pointon more leads and more visits
don't necessarily mean morebusiness.
(06:05):
Right, and that was probablythe biggest.
I won't say it's amisconception, it was more.
You know, it's an assumption.
Right and because I would haveclients constantly saying I want
to you know, I want more visitsand I would have to ask them do
you want more visits or do youwant more business?
Gary Pageau (06:23):
Right.
Matt Bailey (06:24):
They're not the same.
So learning that is really whatthen propelled our business my
ability to communicate tobusinesses.
Here's how to set goals.
Here's how to build strategy.
Here's how to measure success.
Gary Pageau (06:42):
Now I'm just curious, because you've worked
with businesses of differentsizes and I'm thinking back in
those early days.
You probably ran into a bit ofconflict in the organization
because you have your marketingcontact right, the person who's
hired you to do this, andthey're like we want visits, we
want to see those numbers, yes,we don't care how we get it.
And then but it's like butwe're not making sales.
(07:04):
Well, sales is somebody else,that's somebody else's concern.
Right, my concern is how didyou manage that sort of thing?
Because I remember back thenthat was a lot of the conflict
back then copywriters, but alsowith graphic artists.
Matt Bailey (07:22):
Because, they wanted to build the site like
this, and I'm coming in saying,oh no, we need much more
contrast.
That can't be a graphic, itneeds to be HTML.
So I think, personally, I hadmore conflict with graphic
artists because I came from asales background and so I could
speak the sales language andshow them.
(07:43):
And here's where probably thebiggest thing was is I had to
persuade them.
The more content you put on thesite, the easier the sale will
be.
Gary Pageau (07:52):
Right.
Matt Bailey (07:53):
Because everyone their idea was well, we need to
keep information back.
We just need to get them tocall us, and I was trying to
convince them that they willcall if they don't have
confidence or if you don't spurthat question.
And so that was the mainconflict is how much information
do we give to get a call, toget an email?
(08:15):
That was a lot of fun but,again, coming from a sales
background, that enabled me towork with them a little bit more
and sell the idea and finally,you know, and then when they saw
it happening, that that wasjust that was a great time.
Gary Pageau (08:34):
So moving forward, right.
So you get into your own agencydoing your own thing what
changed.
The reason why I say is becauseyou know I've run into people.
Now those are, they're stillasking those same questions,
right?
Erin Manning (08:44):
I don't?
Gary Pageau (08:45):
I think you've hit on a universal problem, that
even though the foundationaltechnology has changed, and
maybe some of the attitudesregarding change.
I mean, you were talking aboutenthusiasm.
I think a lot of marketingtoday is more desperation and
cynicism than it is.
Enthusiasm than it is.
You know, enthusiasm, right,yeah, but overall, I mean, is
(09:06):
there anything new reallyhappening in or in the
objectives?
I guess in the way, yeah, yeah.
Matt Bailey (09:12):
You know it hasn't changed much.
I will say that the windowdressing changes every week,
right, but it's still the samewindow.
It's still put information outthere that people are looking
for, right?
That is the basic thing thathas not changed.
And put it out there in a waythat people can find it, that
(09:35):
they can use it and that alsoconnects with them at some level
, whether it's giving themconfidence that you can do it,
building curiosity that maybethese guys can help me.
It's that same basic idea hasalways been the same.
It's just a matter of howyou're going to execute it, how
(09:56):
you're going to build or developit.
But I will say, right now, theproblem is there's so many shiny
objects and we get a new one.
you know, and we were talking alittle bit earlier and I I
realized this was next to me andthis is the, the course I'm
teaching at my university.
Look at how thick that book isof principles of marketing.
(10:17):
Here's the thing this waspublished only like two years
ago and they're talking abouthow the metaverse is the next
biggest thing.
You know, and I'm laughing, I'mlike I'm going to make this the
centerpiece of my course,because there's so many shiny
objects if you don't know whatworks, why it works right and
(10:39):
and how to affect that thenyou're going to get caught up in
the shiny objects.
Gary Pageau (10:44):
Yeah, you know it's funny.
We were talking again earlierabout the course I teach in the
prison system, which somelisteners know about.
I teach a course onentrepreneurship and I run in
the same thing with my book,because I think it was published
in 2016 or something.
Erin Manning (10:57):
And it talks about like.
Gary Pageau (10:59):
This is a search engine and this is how it works.
But again, the principles arethe same.
That's why it's still a validthing, but it is so.
When you talk about finding outwhat people are looking for,
the challenge a lot of mylisteners run into is they make
stuff and they want to sell thethings that they make, but
(11:24):
sometimes that's not the stuffthat customers are looking for.
So how should they deal withthat?
Right, you know?
Let's say, for example, theyjust bought a new press and they
really want to feed that press,but the customer may not even
be aware of what it can do orsee the advantage of it.
Matt Bailey (11:40):
Yeah, well, and that, so that gets to your
marketing strategy and howyou're positioning yourself.
So you know, for example,Starbucks, red Bull Coke, they
sell caffeine drinks, that's it.
However, what do they marketthemselves at?
You know, what do they say theydo?
(12:02):
And there's a big, bigdifference.
There's that functional thingof what we do, and then there is
the what I would say is more ofthe marketing view of what we
do.
Are you selling pictures ormemories?
Right, one has an emotionaldraw to it, the other one does
not.
Gary Pageau (12:21):
Right.
Matt Bailey (12:21):
It's more functional and so it's coming up
with that bridge offunctionally.
This is what I do, but this ishow I change people's lives.
Gary Pageau (12:31):
Right.
Matt Bailey (12:31):
This is how I make an impact, and it's that
statement and that idea that allof a sudden broadens out your
audience and what they'relooking for.
I'm not just looking for apicture, I'm looking for a way
to, you know, immortalize amoment and memories.
It's emotion and and that'swhat you're it's thinking about
(12:58):
the satisfaction that you'rebringing someone once they have
it, once they've done it, andwhen you think about that end
result, that's what you'reselling and so that's that
connection, because so manytimes people get locked into
that functional mode or and it'sjust how far does this go?
Gary Pageau (13:19):
Yeah, and that's part of the challenge in the
marketing in the photo industry,right?
Well, we're recording this fulldisclosure during the fourth
quarter of 2024.
So there's a lot of discountingand you know, buy one, get ones
, and you know 20% off, 30% offdeals are going on because
there's a lot of that urgencyand that's not that message.
(13:39):
And the problem you run into, Ithink, especially in my
industry, is, you know, onceyou've gone down that path, it's
hard to switch to a valuemessage.
Matt Bailey (13:49):
Yeah.
So I did a lot of work with thedirect marketing industry around
you know the 2000s into the2010s and it was always fun to
talk to people who were catalogretailers that had these type of
businesses, and I remembertalking to one person
specifically who said I willnever offer a discount unless
(14:13):
it's to an existing customerBecause they've shown their
loyalty They've shown Now here'swhy that's changed is Amazon.
Amazon has made everyone believethat shipping is free and it's
immediate, and one of the greatpieces of advice I got is if you
see something you like onAmazon, go to the retailer, go
(14:34):
to the person that sells it, andchances are they'll offer you
10%, which takes care of theshipping.
You know it's now, we've beenconditioned for that and but you
can also feed that beast.
You offer a discount and I'mguilty of this.
If you offer me a discount, I'mgoing to wait for the next
discount.
I've got something sitting in ashopping cart right now,
(14:54):
because I'm waiting for theabandoned cart discount.
I'm going to wait for the nextdiscount.
I've got something sitting in ashopping cart right now, right,
because I'm waiting for theabandoned cart discount.
Erin Manning (14:59):
Right.
Matt Bailey (14:59):
I'm waiting for a sale, so it's.
You are training people withdiscounts when you keep offering
them, so it's.
But and that's the thing, doyou offer it to get a new
customer?
Do you offer it as a reward forcustomers?
And so that's a lot.
When we can get into thebusiness side of things is do
(15:20):
you reward customers and at whatlevel do you reward customers?
And how do you work withcustomers then, not just order
from us when you feel like it?
How are you communicating tothe people that spent $1,000
with you this past year?
How are you communicating topeople that spent $5,000 with
you the past year?
(15:40):
When we talk about marketing, Ithink like 80%, 90% of what
people think about is top offunnel.
It's getting new customers, andwe tend to forget to take care
of those that are already on ourmailing list past buyers,
buyers in the past year, thosetype of things.
Gary Pageau (15:58):
And you've reached an interesting point, because I
think you know discount is easyright, it's just easy to do.
But the reality is is, at leastin the photographic industry,
whether you're in the hardwareside or the output side or the
capture side you're trying tobuild a relationship for ongoing
business, right, because youare dealing with people's
personal uh image or theirpersonal memories, or they're
(16:20):
trying to decorate their homeand have it be their taste and
all those things.
That's really an advantage thatthe industry has over.
Let's say, you know, I'm justselling a uh, you know, towels
or something like that.
Yes, so do you have anyguidelines on, like, how often a
business like that should becommunicating with customers,
(16:42):
because you kind of want to,don't want to give them too much
information all the time, justbecause it's annoying yeah, yeah
, this time of the year versusyou know just, you want to
remind people that you existright, and you can't always rely
on social media for that,because that's kind of outside
of your ability to control thealgorithm.
Matt Bailey (17:01):
It is, and with social media you're only going
to reach 2% maybe of the peoplethat follow you.
And I think also we could gointo an assumption that people
follow brands.
They don't normally do that.
However, they do get emails andyou know, especially this time
(17:22):
of year, email is powerful.
Email drives more sales thansocial it always has, because
it's that one-on-one.
And now I will say, measuringemail is getting harder.
We don't know how many peopleopened.
I mean, it was always a fuzzymetric to begin with.
Gary Pageau (17:40):
Right.
Matt Bailey (17:40):
However, we can look at clicks.
Clicks are something that arehard I can go by that and so
looking at who opens your email,who clicks on your email,
seeing if I've sent four emailsin the past three months, who's
clicked on them.
Erin Manning (17:58):
Right.
Matt Bailey (17:58):
Those are the people who are actively looking
and reading and seeing what'sthere.
I can segment those andcommunicate to them differently
than to people who maybe haveonly clicked on an email once in
the past year.
Right, and so a lot of it isjust.
You know, we do the same thingin face-to-face.
We communicate with peopledifferently based on our level
(18:19):
of relationship.
We need to do the same thing inour marketing, our emails and
things like that.
Gary Pageau (18:24):
When you're talking with people who are you know,
similar businesses right Like,consumer goods businesses like
and you talk about chasing theshiny, which is it was a phrase
I liked.
I like to use a lot too,because I do see a lot of people
guilty about.
What are some of the thingspeople should look at before
they decide to try somethingshiny and new, right Cause, like
(18:45):
I said, I've had photoretailers going.
You know, I've already got theFacebook, I've already got the
Instagram, I've already got theLinkedIn for my corporate
accounts.
Do I need TikTok?
Right?
No one needs TikTok.
Matt Bailey (18:55):
Yeah, yeah.
My first question is where'sthe money coming from?
Right, right, where?
Where are you going to pullthis budget?
Because are you going to add tothe budget for that or are you
going to pull?
You know one story I tell peopleconstantly.
I worked with a consumer goodsretailer and they got sold on
(19:16):
social commerce.
This was a couple years ago.
Uh, through instagram, acompany sold them and and we
were working on their website aswell as their marketing and,
and I cautioned about doing andthis was like probably late
summer, early fall againchristmas is their biggest sales
time and they pulled money outof their paid search budget.
(19:41):
They pulled money out of theiremail budget, and I'm trying to
tell them you shouldn't do this.
Then they came back.
They lost everything.
Everything that they put intothe social commerce did not
produce anything, and not onlythat, it damaged their business
and it took them years torecover.
And they asked me why?
Well, I told them, like everydollar you put into paid search,
(20:05):
you were making at least $5 inreturn.
So not only did you miss that$5 return on ad spend, every
dollar you took out of that adspend hurt you even more.
I said your two best channelswere paid search and email, and
(20:27):
you pulled budget out of both inorder to try something new.
That's why I tell people knowwhat works and why, and because
if you don't know, you could bepulling budget from an area that
is working great.
But if you don't know, andagain, just throwing money at a
(20:50):
channel does not necessarilymean it's going to work.
This gets to like, you know,just our typical talk.
Gary, how are you going to useit?
Did you think about that?
Because if you use TikTok, well, who's going to shoot the video
?
Who's going to edit it?
What's going to be yourschedule?
How are you going to talk aboutit?
And one of the things I don'tthink people realize is every
(21:11):
single one of these socialchannels is it's a game, right?
If you're going to besuccessful at a channel, you
have to have a game, and by thatI mean you can't look at other
people's numbers and comparebecause you don't know how they
got those.
Especially in social, there's alot of social.
Gary Pageau (21:32):
Yeah.
Matt Bailey (21:32):
You know, and when you start digging in and reading
how to create audience, how tocreate things like that, very
little of it is organic.
Right, there is a lot of pay.
You know, back in the day weused to call it the payola.
Yeah, you know, if you'repaying DJs to play your music.
Gary Pageau (21:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Bailey (21:52):
Essentially, that's what's going on in social media
Right, You're paying companiesto boost.
You're paying companies toboost.
You're paying companies tofollow.
So many of these metrics areinflated or overdone.
We see things go viral and weassume it's organic.
It is 99.999% of the time it'snot organic.
(22:13):
It was done by an agency andthey had the means to make it
happen.
Gary Pageau (22:18):
But let's not be on the negative side and say you
shouldn't try new things.
I'm just saying I mean thereare things that you want to try,
but the reality is is don'tkill the golden goose to do it.
Use, maybe try it, but don'tuse.
Don't pull out of your budget.
Add to your budget, dosomething different.
Matt Bailey (22:35):
You know, that's why I guess and have a way to
measure it.
Absolutely, and that's the thingI tell people.
You can try a new channel, butultimately, here, my, my first
bit of advice is find onechannel and do great.
Don't do three channels midwayRight.
Do one thing, great, and whenyou've mastered it, now figure
(22:58):
out which channel should we lookat from here.
What's next?
You know, and you might besurprised when you start looking
to see where these communitiesare, of people that not only
would like your product but aregoing to tell others about it.
That'll take pictures of theirwhat they got and send it and
show it to other people.
It that'll take pictures ofwhat they got and send it and
(23:21):
show it to other people.
It's not just a matter of whichplatform's the biggest.
It's where the people are thatwill be the most appreciative
and the most engaging, andthat's part of it.
The new is not always the best.
It's finding where thosecommunities are.
Gary Pageau (23:35):
If you're a local business, you know and you've
got, you know, a three to fivemile trading area right, like
most people, for your brick andmortar.
How do you find where thepeople are right?
I'm talking to your regular,everyday business owner, who's
not a marketing expert, who youknow is just dealing with the
day to day.
How does that person find thepeople?
Matt Bailey (23:56):
The best thing that you can do is build that Google
my Business profile.
That is number one for alocally based business.
You are going to get moremileage out of that than you
will building a website andputting all kinds of things
trying to get a bigger audience.
Your Google business profile isgoing to be, first, what Google
(24:22):
shows people.
Connect it to your website.
There's a number of things youcan do and engage with it.
Update it.
Google my Business is one ofthose things.
The more effort you put into it, the more you're going to see.
I work with a couple of localbusinesses.
I've developed their businessprofile and, by the way, anyone
that wants to charge you to doit, come on, you can do this.
(24:45):
You can do it in a weekend.
Don't pay someone else to dothis, but then also log into it
once a week, double check yourhours, double check the things
that you've got there and if youcan upload pictures.
That is what's going to movethings.
And as people start leavingreviews about your business and,
by the way, you can grab a linkand you can send it to
(25:07):
customers with an invitation forthem to leave a review about
your business.
So the more active you are inthe profile, the more pictures
you load and the more ratingsyou get.
The more exposure you load andthe more ratings you get, the
more exposure your local listingwill get in Google compared to
your website.
And then over time the wordsthat people search for will
(25:32):
become broader and your locallisting will come up more
frequently.
At first it'll come up for yourbusiness name, but as you grow
that reputation it's going tobroaden out into more terms that
Google's going to associate andif you're active, you are
building that profile, you'regoing to get that visibility.
Gary Pageau (25:53):
So I mean, and like you said, it's something you
can do in your spare time,because one of your resources is
a book called Marketing in OneHour, right?
So you think most people can dothis without investing a crazy
amount of time, because that'swhat I always hear from a lot of
my audiences.
You know, I'd love to do thisstuff, but I just don't have
time.
Erin Manning (26:12):
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (26:13):
But you're saying you do have time, but you got to
have the discipline to do it.
Matt Bailey (26:17):
Yeah, the business profile is the easiest thing to
do.
You know I work with a lot ofyou know small businesses and I
tell them the easiest thing youcan do is take a picture of what
you do, take a picture of thebefore and after.
Put that in.
You know, I know people don'thave time to sit around and
write 2000 word pages for a blogand that's the thing People,
(26:39):
when they hear content, that'swhat they think of.
But no, you know, take a shortvideo.
You know I work with a plumber.
I tell them, like, just take ashort video of some of the worst
things that you see in a dayand explain why it's so bad.
Put that on your businessprofile, put it on your website.
Gary Pageau (26:56):
That's the type of thing people want to see okay,
I'm surprised you would say thatfor your business profile,
because usually when I think ofthe business profile I think of
like the store, the back room,the trucks, the retail area.
So you're even talking aboutlike things out in the field,
like gary, do you remember the?
Matt Bailey (27:16):
the show dirty jobs ?
Absolutely, that's what I'mtalking about, right?
Gary Pageau (27:21):
people are fascinated to see but that's
okay for a google profile.
Matt Bailey (27:24):
That's what I'm saying yeah, well, think about
and here's the thing, thinkabout the problems people run
into.
Right, you know, with a plumber, we don't call plumbers three
months before we need them.
That's right, you know.
Same, you know withian.
It might be a little different,but it's it's.
Think about the things ahomeowner might run into where,
(27:46):
all of a sudden, they realizeI'm in over my head.
Maybe they go online andthey're looking and if they see
on your profile oh, this guy'sseen this before he's explaining
why it's so bad or or why Ineed what I need to do Maybe
they'll learn, maybe they'llcall you know it's.
It's that behind the scenes.
That that's why, you know, Iuse the dirty jobs example.
People are fascinated with whatpeople do, sure, and they'll
(28:11):
sit and watch.
Gary Pageau (28:13):
Absolutely.
Oh, I agree, I just have notheard of someone using the
Google profile.
I mean, hear people do youtubefor that you know.
But yeah, but youtube's adifferent.
Matt Bailey (28:24):
Do both okay doing both okay, it doesn't hurt you
to do both google owns youtube,so they love that too yeah,
exactly, yeah when it comes tomarketing, we're you know we're
doing.
Gary Pageau (28:34):
So let's recap a little bit avoid the shiny, have
discipline.
You can do this.
Don't kill the golden goose.
What is something else that youwould share with somebody about
that you tell the big companiesyou work with.
I mean, what I find surprising,I'm sure, is big companies have
these same problems as littlecompanies.
It's almost.
It's just on a different scale.
Matt Bailey (28:56):
Oh, it's on a completely different scale.
Things go slower.
There are things you cannotchange because you're not in
charge of that.
Somebody else is.
It's absolutely frustrating towork with a larger company who
won't move or move quickly.
There is an advantage to beingthe one who calls the shots.
(29:16):
You can move very quickly.
Large companies I find you knowmy own experience.
I spend more time presentingwhy we need to take action than
actually taking action.
You need to get more peoplesigned off, you need to justify
it and I will say from you knowit can be fun but it can be
(29:38):
frustrating as well.
And so, yeah, I've got friendsand clients, you know, in all
different areas and it's justthey all have their nuance to it
.
The people that I train inagencies, I train them
differently than the people thatare in large companies with you
know, a 20 person marketingdepartment or a hundred person
marketing department or a 100person marketing department, the
(29:59):
expectations are different, theobjectives are different,
measurements are different, andwhen you've got politics thrown
in, that's just icing on thecake so one of the things that I
hear from people is I need newcustomers, I need new people, I
need new people, but from what Iwas understanding're saying,
before you're saying, doubledown on the your existing people
(30:23):
, your current customers, canyou tell me how that results in
new customers?
Gary Pageau (30:29):
Cause I I think I know what you're going to say,
but it does actually bring younew customers by by focusing on
your current customer base.
Matt Bailey (30:36):
Yeah, well, it starts with asking who's my best
customer.
Gary Pageau (30:40):
Right.
Matt Bailey (30:41):
And now, what I love about that question is it
can be interpreted in a coupleof different ways.
Is it financially, who's mybest customer, right?
Is it socially, who's my?
You know, I've got a lot ofbusinesses I work with and, yeah
, these people spend a lot ofmoney, but these people, they
are actively posting,recommending, you know, and or I
(31:06):
love working with these people,right, you know they may not
spend a lot, but I love workingwith them.
So how do you interpret that?
What's you know?
I ask any businesses, what'syour goal?
Is your goal to find morepeople that you have fun working
with, or is your goal to findmore people who spend more?
How are you going to definethat question?
(31:26):
Because that's going todetermine.
Now let's go look at the data.
Let's go see who these peopleare that you define as your best
customers.
Now let's develop a campaignthat rewards, that promotes,
that helps them tell othersabout you.
That's ultimately what we'regoing to do, and that's where
(31:48):
the swag comes in.
I'm wearing swag here thismorning.
I don't know if you can see.
It's an analytics company.
They saw that I was talkingabout them.
They sent me a sweatshirt, so Italk about them even more.
That's how it works.
You know, and we're workingwith a company right now and you
know we look to see how manypeople were talking about their
(32:11):
product online and we weresurprised that not only did they
talk about the product, theytalk about how much they love it
.
And so, you know, our biggestpiece of advice is you need to
put together a box of swag andget that out to them, get it out
to their teams, get it out tothem.
Reward them for what they'redoing for you.
(32:33):
There was one client that wasour best promotion.
That was our best campaign wasrewarding the people that were
actively talking about itproduced more than any of the
social media stuff we did,because it was them doing it.
Again, what kind of customer doyou want?
Find them and reward them andcome up with a way to engage
(32:56):
them even more.
Back in the day, gary, youprobably did this as well.
We had user groups, right.
You know where you get thatdirect one-on-one feedback.
It's also where we got ideasfor new products.
Sure, I think in thiselectronic age, we do a lot more
assuming and less communicating.
Gary Pageau (33:13):
Speaking of communication, how can people
get more information about MattBailey's SiteL ogic, and the
things that you offer in termsof training and resources?
Matt Bailey (33:23):
Thank you, Gary.
I appreciate the opportunityfor an ad.
They can go to SiteLogic andthat is S-I-T-E,
sitelogicmarketingcom or evenjust sitelogiccom.
I've got courses on digitalmarketing In fact, we talked
about the local marketing andI've got a course on Google, my
(33:45):
Business.
It is free and that's my hook.
You can also take courses onSEO, on content marketing, how
to find customers, how to buildcustomer insights, and all of my
courses my paid courses arecoached courses.
They are active learning.
So you're going to getassignments, and this assignment
can be about your own business,Right, and so you will build
(34:08):
strategy for your own business.
You will build campaigns andI'm going to be with you every
step of the way, looking at yourassignments, giving you
feedback and building your ownskills for your business.
Gary Pageau (34:21):
Awesome, well, great man.
It's been great getting to knowyou and learning more about
your business and your offeringsand the education you offer,
because it sounds cool and I'mgoing to check it out.
So thank you so much.
Matt Bailey (34:31):
Thank you, Gary.
It's been a lot of fun beinghere.
I appreciate it and, yeah, it'sbeen a great conversation.
Erin Manning (34:36):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
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