June 19, 2025 • 30 mins
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What if the secret to unlocking extraordinary business performance isn't found in complex strategies, but in your approach to leadership? That's the compelling premise James Robbins, mountain climber turned leadership expert, explores in this thought-provoking conversation.
Robbins takes us on a journey that begins in the Rocky Mountain foothills where he grew up and traces his unexpected path through ministry to business leadership consulting. Along the way, he reveals a fundamental truth many leaders miss: the skills that make someone excel as an individual contributor are rarely the same skills needed to lead others effectively.
"You can always hire a hand, but you can't hire a heart," Robbins explains, highlighting the critical distinction between compliance and commitment. True leadership happens when you trust people with meaningful work while providing both challenge and support. It's this delicate balance that creates cultures where people willingly contribute parts of themselves they've never given any previous employer.
The conversation tackles the leadership challenges facing today's multi-generational workforce, with Robbins offering a refreshing perspective on Gen Z workers. Rather than viewing them as difficult, he suggests their demand for authentic leadership actually raises standards for everyone. "The problem isn't with Gen Z, the problem is with leaders," he observes, suggesting that approaching younger generations as volunteers rather than subordinates can transform engagement.
Perhaps most powerfully, Robbins s
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Manning (00:09):
Pegeau Society podcast.
Welcome to the Dead PixelsSociety podcast.
I'm your Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by James
Robbins, who's a mountainclimber, best-selling author,
(00:31):
and award-winning speaker.
He's going to talk to us todayabout motivation and leadership,
and James is coming to us fromDenver, Colorado.
Hi James, how are you today?
James Robbins (00:38):
Gary, fantastic Thanks for having me on the show
and I love the name Dead PixelsSociety.
Gary Pageau (00:43):
Well, thank you, and well, I appreciate that.
Let's talk first about how youstarted.
I mean, I mean, I've never hada mountain climber that I'm
aware of, that that's the firstthing on their bio.
James Robbins (00:55):
Tell us that story about mountain climbing as
a passion yeah, I would putmyself in the amateur category
for sure, but you've been to theAndes, I've seen that.
Yeah, I've got to do some coolthings.
I actually grew up on a smallcattle ranch in the foothills of
the Rocky Mountains and myfather always had us outdoors
(01:16):
and in the mountains and so itjust was part of my life growing
up and also it just affectedthe lens through which I saw
life.
You know, life is simple butalso there's a lot of mountains
to climb, and that's reallywhere that began.
Gary Pageau (01:31):
Let's talk, then, about the business career,
because you've been doing thebusiness consulting.
You've written several booksover quite a few years.
What's your story there?
How did you get started withthat?
James Robbins (01:45):
So I'm the small-town kid who decided I
wanted to become a moviedirector.
I wanted to make movies with mylife.
So I went to college to go tofilm school and then sort of
ended up taking a right turn Ididn't expect and I went into
ministry and I became a preacher, which was totally shocked my
family Like we didn't grow up inchurch or anything like that.
(02:05):
But I started working in thischurch because I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed helping people.
It was there that you know.
Eventually you got to get upfront and say something and I
was just this shy, introvertedkid.
But that's where it began andthat career over those years.
You know, eventually you haveto start teaching other people
(02:26):
how to be leaders and that endedup turning into helping
business.
People turn into leaders.
So a little bit I'd like to sayI sort of followed in John
Maxwell's path and how hestarted.
Gary Pageau (02:39):
So when you say you had to teach people leadership
from the pulpit right, you hadto teach people leadership from
the pulpit right.
What were some of thoseleadership skills you saw that
you had to pass on, that weretransferable, if you will, from
that environment to the businessworld?
James Robbins (02:56):
Yeah for sure, in those early days, I think for
me a lot of it was the blindleading the blind.
I didn't know if I knew what Iwas talking about, but it passed
on what was passed on to me.
But here's the thing aboutleadership, gary, is that all of
us go through the same door,and that is that anyone here
who's listening, who's a leaderor you're a business owner, you
(03:20):
probably worked somewhere.
You had a job, you were good atit, people trusted you, you
worked hard and eventuallysomeone said, hey, now you're
going to be responsible for someother people.
And here's the thing about thattransition when you go from an
individual contributor to, allof a sudden, now you're leading
people, everything changes,because now, in a sense, what
(03:43):
got you there is not going toget you to the next level,
because now, great point.
Yeah, because now success isnot linked to how well you can
do a job.
Success is now linked to canyou move people?
And if you can't like, if youcan't get the best out of people
, you are going to be limited inyour success as a leader, as a
(04:04):
business owner, you are going tobe limited in your success as a
leader, as a business owner,any of those things you know.
Gary Pageau (04:11):
That's a great point, because you know, I've
worked in various size companiesand you always saw that point
where someone's really doinggood at their job, they're
excelling at a certain rolemaybe customer service or
something and then there'salways this desire that we're
going to put that person incharge because they're good at
what they do, so they're clearlygoing to be good at helping
other people do that thing.
And that's not always the case,right, because the thing that
(04:33):
got them in that position isn'tthe skill that's going to keep
them there.
James Robbins (04:38):
Exactly, and so you think about it.
Somebody gets in a corporateenvironment, they get promoted,
and now they've got this extraresponsibility to move people,
but where their security lies isin producing results through
their talent, right, and so nowthere's this war inside, right,
it's like, well, I just wanttime to do what I'm good at, but
(04:58):
I've got to go and meet theneeds of these employees, and
that's when you get managersthat you know have those days
where they're I hope my staffcan't find me so I can just get
stuff done Right, right, and sothat in a sense, that's the
default.
So so much of what I do incompanies is getting leaders to
get more intentional about thepeople side of leadership.
(05:19):
Right, right, because there'sthe people side there.
Then there's, of course, theprocess side.
Gary Pageau (05:24):
Well, I mean, and then they also may have a
challenge delegating Right,Because if you've got someone
who's really good at doing theirskill and then you make them in
charge of other people who aredoing their skill, you know they
have to be trust the peopleenough to let the people do the
job they were formerly doingformerly doing 100%.
James Robbins (05:43):
And for those of you who are listening, who are
actual business owners, you justalways have to remember almost
no one will do the job as goodas you or as with the same
passion, right?
And so you just have tounderstand that, like, there's a
little bit of letting go ofcontrol and even letting go of
sometimes quality in certainareas, because you know what you
weren't good at it overnighteither.
(06:03):
So it's a process, for sure ofletting go of control and even
letting go of sometimes qualityin certain areas, because you
know what you weren't good at itovernight either.
So it's a process, for sure, ofletting go trusting people.
But, gary, here's the thing Ifyou don't let go and give people
stuff, then they'll do what youask them to do, but they won't
engage on a deeper level.
(06:23):
Right, you can always hire ahand.
Like you can always hire a hand, but you can't hire a heart.
You got to win the heart, andthat's one of the ways you do it
by trusting them with workbecause I find that people who
have a tendency tomicromanagement you know,
towards micromanagement may havetrust issues.
Actually, that's really theproblem it totally can be trust
(06:43):
issues.
Uh, also, let's say, uh, you'vegot a small business owner who
you know you're hustling,grinding and just trying to make
payroll every month.
Then that fear creates morecontrol.
Right, you want to exert morecontrol, and so it's a natural
thing to do, but it's not theright thing.
But I totally understand thefeeling.
Gary Pageau (07:05):
So let's talk about , you know, building a culture
of performance within a business, because that's really what
it's about right?
If you don't have a businessthat has a culture where the
owner or the leader can evenstep away and allow the people
to do the work, then it's nothealthy, it's not sustainable,
(07:28):
if that's the right word.
So what are your definitionalpoints of like, what our
performance culture is?
James Robbins (07:35):
Yeah, gary, and you're so right that if we don't
have a culture that is likethat current in the river, if
that's not flowing and a healthyone, then you can never leave
your business, you can neverstep out.
So when you think about highperformance cultures, they are
first of all driven around somesort of vision point.
So you know, we hear this allthe time about leaders have to
(07:57):
have vision.
And of course it's true, butnot just the big vision.
But you know, breaking thisdown quarter by quarter hey,
what are we doing this quarter?
Where are we going?
Why are we going there?
What are we all about?
That has to be front and centerall the time because that's how
we're going to tap into purpose.
But that's just one piece ofthe culture.
(08:19):
To distill this like in assimple as I can, it would be
that in the context of thatvision and where we're going,
there are clear targets thathave high expectations, that are
challenging for people.
So think about that.
Our goal when we're trying toget the best out of people,
create a high performanceculture.
You don't get that by justhaving a nice laissez-faire
(08:44):
workplace.
No, you have a workplace wherepeople have targets and they're
going after them and they'reheld accountable.
So all this sounds very mean andscary in some ways if you look
at it like that, but that has tobe balanced with the other side
of that, and that other side ofit is caring about your staff
having their back, creating aplace for them that's
(09:07):
psychologically safe, and theleaders that can do that, create
this safety and create a placeof high expectations and then
supporting people to get there.
That's where you really beginto unlock the magic in your
staff right.
That's when people beginbringing.
They begin unlocking parts ofthemselves to throw into your
(09:27):
company that they haven't given.
Anyone else Does that make?
Gary Pageau (09:31):
sense?
Yeah, absolutely so.
The question is is who setsthose goals, who sets those
standards?
Because if the leadership isout of touch, they may set
either unrealistic goals orgoals that aren't really
suitable or appropriate.
Let's put it that way and ifyou let the staff set the goals,
they may not align those goalswith the direction of the
(09:56):
business.
It just says, hey, this is thestuff I'm good at and this is
what I'm going to do.
James Robbins (10:01):
Yeah.
So here's how I view it, here'show I teach.
It is that, at the end of theday, who's ever the top leader?
You're responsible fordecisions.
Right, you should includepeople.
If you want them to buy intothe vision, they've got to be
part of the process.
But at the end of the day,they're not being paid to make
the final decision, because thefinal decision, if it's a
(10:24):
victory, of course it's theteam's.
If it doesn't go well, theperson who made the decision has
to own that, and that's goingto be the business owner.
You've got to be able to ownthat.
So of course, you want to bringpeople in.
Sometimes, things I used to dowhere I would have a pretty good
idea where we need to go, andit might even be something that
(10:45):
was a different direction, and Iwouldn't tell my staff.
I would first say, hey, let'stalk a little bit about some
ideas for the future, and Iwould get them all to weigh in.
Of course I'm listening becausemaybe something that they would
say would change my thinking.
But if it didn't, and whoeverwas kind of the closest to what
(11:06):
I was already thinking, I wouldsay I love what Sarah said.
I've been thinking somethingsimilar and this is what we're
going to do.
So in that way, you're bringingyour staff in, getting their
input, but at the end of the day, they want you to make a final
choice.
Gary Pageau (11:23):
They want you to make a final choice.
So a lot of my listenershipright are people who either grew
up in their business or theystarted their business, so they
may not have a lot ofprofessional leadership training
per se right, or even thebusiness they're in.
I know several large companiesthey don't do.
You know, in today'senvironment they're not doing a
lot of great leadership trainingbecause, you know, cost cutting
(11:45):
or pressures in the market orsomething like that.
So where are some places peoplecan get some good information
about everyday resources?
Not, you know, we're going totalk about your book
specifically later on, but rightnow it's sort of non James
Robbins resources.
James Robbins (12:03):
For sure.
Well, I've read a lot of them,them.
So here's the thing aboutleadership.
The biggest thing aboutleadership is that you just have
to lead with intention.
You have to be intentional.
The things that drive humanmotivation and engagement are
not mysterious, right, right andwhy is it so hard then?
(12:23):
it's so hard because we have thewe're're juggling priorities
right.
So in a big corporateenvironment, someone's breathing
down your neck to produce someresults.
So you feel you know yourhair's on fire.
Then you think, well, we justgot to keep shoving that at your
staff instead of taking the 30seconds to say to Mary hey Mary,
how was your son Joey's soccertournament on the weekend?
(12:44):
Like that's leadership, becauseyou're creating those bonds and
those connections.
So when it comes down to it,leadership at the end of the day
again, it's going to be somesimple things and all of those
things can be learned.
But to my point was we're notgoing to discover something
three years from now that we'relike oh my goodness, this is a
new discovery.
It's a little bit like six packabs, like if you are waiting
(13:07):
for some new research to comeout on how to get a six pack,
I'm sorry to tell you it's notgoing to come out.
We all know how to get six packabs.
I don't have them.
Gary, if you punch me in thestomach, you will not hurt your
hand right so.
I do not have six pack abs, butit's not a knowledge problem,
it's an execution problem.
Leadership's the same, and thechallenge for most people is
(13:30):
it's actually twofold.
A lot of leaders are like, well, can I really have an impact on
staff motivation?
And the answer is yes.
And the second one is, well,yeah, but where do I focus?
Because I just don't have time.
So that's what we're fightingagainst.
It's really it's the timepressure, and the great thing
about leadership is leadership.
Great leadership is actuallythe little things that are done
(13:52):
consistently.
And, Gary, I don't know if youplayed sports when you're
growing up or if you had somegreat bosses that you can look
back to, but I bet any of thepositive examples they're going
to be they did these smallthings just consistently.
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (14:09):
Yeah, and that's, I think, part of it is.
You know, the consistency thingI think is is the piece right,
Because sometimes it's like youknow, business runs into trouble
.
They're having a challenge andleadership says, oh, we have to
be leaders now, so and theyreally haven't built up the
equity right, they haven'tdeposited in the bank or
whatever phrase you want to talkabout, where they built the
(14:32):
leadership over time.
They can quickly solve theproblem with some attention, and
it takes time is the challenge.
James Robbins (14:40):
It does.
And all this to come back tothe question you asked that I
didn't answer yet.
But that has to do with goodresources.
So here's the thing it's noteven so much whether the
resource is good, it's just thatyou have a constant immersion
in leadership.
So when I was a young preacher,I was just devouring books on
leadership.
Now, if I were to go back intime and now look at them, I
(15:03):
would probably look at themdifferently.
But at the time I was justsoaking everything up and you
know, my wife at one time waslike you bought another
leadership book and the wholepoint was because I just need it
consistently in my life.
Right, and that's the mostimportant thing I think for
leaders is look, just some newleadership book comes out, great
(15:27):
, buy it and just start workingthrough it.
You're reading two or three atthe same time.
There's so many resources.
Today, of course, we've got AI,can tell you things, but I think
also you can read greatbiographies.
You know, I was just readingone about the guy who turned
around Best Buy.
I forget his name now, but hetalked about joy at work.
I love reading how they come inand think about that, and then
(15:50):
you can go.
How does this apply to mycompany?
What does what doesn't right?
It's just like eating fish eatthe meat and spit the bones out,
but a constant diet ofeducation is important.
Gary Pageau (16:04):
Because I think that's where some people may
even avoid management, becauseit's almost like you know, if I
get too close to the employees,they might ask me for something,
and you know what I mean.
Have you ever encountered thatkind of idea?
James Robbins (16:20):
for sure.
So one of the things that whenwe're training leaders in a
company, one of our foundationalpoints is you just need to care
about your staff, you just careabout them.
You don't have to be theirfriend, but you need to care
about them.
You need to have a genuineinterest in them as people.
And some people are like, ah,but that's not professional.
I'm like, well, I'm not surewhere you got that definition of
(16:43):
professional.
I get what you're saying, ofcourse, of professional.
I get what you're saying, ofcourse, be professional, but you
can be genuinely interested inthem as people, because that
creates that reciprocity.
That's as basic as it gets, butit's so powerful.
Gary Pageau (16:56):
I still think, even though it's 2025, we start kind
of grappling with sort of thestill tail end of like 50s
management styles of you knowhierarchies and divisions and
things like that.
Was there anything to learnfrom that sort of you know
corporate culture?
Was it me, was it the rest?
Because I hear some people allyou know that was dead, you got
(17:18):
to be totally horizontal and youknow different kind of business
structures.
But but I tend to think maybethere was some value there 100%.
James Robbins (17:28):
So think of it from this perspective.
Like, at the end of the day,what you most want with your
employees is for them to givetheir best, and a big piece of
them giving their best isfeeling a sense of ownership.
So the idea where people cameout and said, hey, let's just
flatten the organization Well,okay, you can do that.
(17:52):
You gain some strengths fromthat, but you also lose some
things from that.
What you lose is when you havea great leader who's over five
or six or seven people, thatleader is able to have an
incredible impact on those five,six or seven or so.
Then just this flatorganization, right.
If you got a flat organization,who's?
(18:13):
Who's caring about you?
Who's coaching you?
Right?
Who's sitting down with you andsaying, hey, I want to talk
with you about what you did lastweek was amazing, because no
one's eyes going to be on you.
It's a little bit like ahospital.
You got a charge nurse andthey're over, you know, 40
nurses.
From an organizational point,it works.
But here's the thing If youhave leaders that are trained,
(18:38):
then it's okay to have ahierarchy.
And, to the point about 1950s,you know, I think the problem
then was you know, I'm a Gen Xer, so I grew up with bosses that
you know A they weren't going tocare about me.
No one recognized me, no onecoached me.
You know, I'm going to talk toyou when you've screwed up.
But part of it was also thatwas the culture at the time, so
(19:02):
you didn't know what you'remissing.
Culture at the time, so youdidn't know what you're missing.
The strength was.
The strength in that was you asan employee showed up and we're
like all right, I better, Ibetter focus.
You know I got to do my thing.
I don't want to yell that?
Yeah, exactly, and.
But you know again, it comesback to my point about ownership
.
You want people to takeownership and to do that, we've
(19:26):
got to give them something toown, but we've got to give them
something to strive for.
Because, if you think about,there's the psychological
process that you know we callstriving right.
When somebody has a clear goalthat's challenging and they're
going after, well, the leaderhas to be part of that process.
Right, helping set a goal forsomeone.
A lot of times people will seta goal but it won't be that
(19:49):
challenging and so the leader isgoing to bump it up going.
No, I think you can do more.
I think you can do this.
We all need that push from timeto time.
I do not believe that everyone'sjust going to be so
self-motivated.
You know who's self-motivatedthe business owners.
They.
You know who's self-motivated.
The business owners.
Right, they're motivatedbecause there's so much on the
line.
Sure, you know we don't makemore sales.
(20:09):
How am I going to make payroll?
You take that pressure with youto bed.
Yeah, you're engaged, but youremployee who comes in?
who's running the cash?
register, they're going to leaveat five and clock out mentally.
But when you can get them moreengaged and feel some ownership
for the store, they might leaveat five.
(20:31):
But then they're thinking, theygo over to another camera store
and all of a sudden they'relike, wow, they do this, that's
a good idea, we should do this.
And now they're also thinkingright, like an owner.
Gary Pageau (20:43):
Because I think that is one of the challenges
with, especially in today'sworkplace Right, you mentioned
Gen Xers, right?
So you got the Gen Z people nowwhere there is sort of this
disengagement in a lot to adegree in the workplace.
Do you think leadership is theway to solve that problem, or do
you think there's too muchcynicism out there now?
James Robbins (21:05):
Leadership is how you solve the problem, and what
I've learned is that the thingsthat drive Gen Xers also drive
millennials, also drive Gen Zers.
It just has to be presented ina bit different way.
But who doesn't want to becared about at work?
Baby boomers not so much, butfor everyone on down like it
makes a bigger difference.
Who doesn't want to accomplishsomething great, who doesn't
(21:28):
want to be part of somethinggreat?
I think what Gen Z has donemillennials a little bit as well
, but I think what Gen Z hasdone is has raised the bar for
the type of leadership needed.
The problem is not with Gen Z,the problem is with leaders, and
if you want to lead a veryengaged group of Gen Z, you got
(21:52):
to raise the level of yourleadership.
And I've seen organizationsthat have, you know, scores of
Gen Z, millennials and Gen Xersall working together and
everyone was called back to work.
They all came back to work.
They were motivated and engaged.
Their boss was a boomer, sothey had every generation there.
Gary Pageau (22:13):
It's not about the generation, it's about how
they're led well, the thingabout gen z, I will say and I'm
not necessarily negative on thatdemographic is they can smell
inauthenticity a mile away.
I mean more you know, in thesense that you know if the
(22:38):
leadership is not carryingthrough or living up to what
they're professing they're doing.
They're going to know, probablybefore anyone else.
James Robbins (22:44):
Yeah, exactly Gary.
And I think another strength ofGen Z is they're not afraid of
you.
And what I mean this is that,you know, in the old days it's
like your boss, you know, yelledat you.
You were just, you know, kindof cowered in a corner and like,
okay, I'll do it differentlynext time, even though I did it
right.
A Gen Zer is going to listen toyou.
(23:04):
Let's say, you yell at them.
They're just going to standthere and look at you, at them.
They're just going to standthere and look at you and then,
when you're done, they're goingto say, well, you know what?
You told me this, I did this, Istand by my decision.
And then it's going to take youto to up your leadership,
whether that's you realizing youwere wrong, or how do you help
direct their thinking?
Because that's just what thatgeneration is.
(23:28):
I think it's a great strength.
Gary Pageau (23:30):
That's a great way to put it, because you know
again from people of a differentgeneration.
Let's say you know there issort of a generational
interpretation that gets there.
You know you always read somevery positive things about you
know Gen Z in terms of you knowempathy, and they do work hard
if they do believe in whatthey're doing right.
So the challenge fromleadership is to inspire them to
(23:52):
do that, whereas I think youknow older generations well.
Your inspiration is you getpaid every two weeks.
That should be your inspiration.
James Robbins (24:00):
Yeah, like when I was graduating from Gary high
school, like back then it waslike you must go to college or
you have failed.
That was the first thing, right.
Or go work in the oil patch,get a job with the postal
service.
And now you've got these GenZ's coming to work and in the
back of their mind they're likewell, I got a friend making
$40,000 a month, you know,making content, I can always go
(24:21):
do that, but I figure I'll trywork this job Like they are in a
world that we didn't get toexperience Right, and they've
got more options than ever.
And so you know.
A great way actually to look atleading Gen Z.
It's almost like you arerunning a not-for-profit and
they are volunteers, and I thinkthat's actually what helped me
(24:43):
with leadership was working somany years in the ministry is
that you have a paid staff butthen you have this bulk of
volunteers.
You can't kick them out, youcan't fire them.
You've got to find a way towork with them.
That's a little bit what Gen Zis like and it takes a lot more
learning.
Things like the relationalinfluence, influence about
(25:05):
purpose, not just show up and doyour job.
Gary Pageau (25:08):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So if someone were to look atleadership now, obviously you're
a leadership coach and aspeaker, so you think it's
pretty important.
Where does it rank on otherskills in the plateau?
Do you think business leadersshould be spending all this time
leading and motivating, or whatdo you think the percentage is
(25:30):
there in terms of time andattention?
Obviously, for someone like you, you're gonna say it's pretty
high, but you know there areother things that need to get
done sometimes.
James Robbins (25:38):
Yeah, it's really going to depend, gary, on the
industry and what's going on.
You got some leaders who are,you know, in the trenches with
their team, and they're havingto get stuff done.
You got some a business ownerin a larger company Okay, that's
going to look differently.
It's all just going to comeback, though, is am I getting
the best out of my people?
Right?
(25:59):
So, as a leader, there's acertain piece of the processes
and systems you have to have inplace, right, and you got to
have you know what's our OKRsfor the next quarter and how are
we going to measure?
What are our KPIs?
And, of course, there's all ofthat holding people accountable.
But, on the other side, yeah,how do I extract potential?
(26:19):
Because, think of it in thisway, gary, like you and I can
come to work, and on our worstday versus our best day, at
least for me, that's a prettybig gulf, right.
The gulf between me at my bestand me at my half slacking it,
that's a lot.
Now, multiply that by theamount of employees you have,
(26:39):
right?
I was speaking to a big miningcompany in Canada.
They had 3,000 employees, andI'm just with all the leaders,
and I told them.
I said what if I could give you300 more employees that you
didn't have to pay for and werealready trained?
Would you want them?
Of course the answer is yes andI said well then all we have to
do is get 3,000 people 10% moreengaged, and there's your 300
(27:04):
employees.
It's like when the governmentwants to save energy, they tell
everyone just drop yourthermostat in your house by one
degree.
If everyone just does it by one, we save millions of dollars.
The same thing there how can Iget my people just a little bit
more engaged?
So again, without your people,unless you've got AI employees
(27:28):
to take their place, withoutyour people, you don't have a
business.
So back to the question wheredoes that rank?
I'm going to put it at the verytop, because you might have a
great product, but if yourculture is not strong and people
keep quitting and you're justhaving to replace new employees,
and now you've got a new personand you've got to retrain them,
(27:49):
and then they quit.
Now you've got a new person,you've got to retrain them, and
then they quit.
Gary Pageau (27:52):
You can't serve the customer, right?
Yeah, I always think that whenyou have people leaving a
business frequently, they havetrouble retaining people, right,
it's like, well, they don't payenough, or whatever.
No, it's a leadership problem,because most people leave
because of bad leadership.
James Robbins (28:10):
You are 100% right, 100 right.
There's the.
Of course, there's oddsituations where someone I lost
an employee, um because a cryptocompany came in and offered her
three times more than when Iwas paying her like 300 more.
jamesrobbins.
Yeah but even then she was acrypto so well even then he was
(28:31):
like I don't know if I shouldtake it, and I was like of
course you have to take it, it'sa great opportunity for you.
But you know, even then I meanI was 300%.
Imagine if someone wants totriple your salary but you're
still thinking of maybe Ishouldn't leave the company that
I'm in.
Well, that's what you want tobuild, right?
Awesome?
Gary Pageau (28:50):
Well, speaking of building, where can people go
for more information Because youdo have a new book coming out,
so tell us a little bit aboutthat and where people can find
more information on that.
James Robbins (28:59):
I have a new book coming out yes, thanks for
bringing that up and it's moreof personal leadership than it
is about leading your teams.
Like my other book, the name isthe Call to Climb.
It's actually a fable and it'sall about when your life gets a
little bit out of alignment.
It's time to have aconversation with your inner
(29:20):
life and get things right.
So that book comes out inAugust.
I'm excited about that, but, ofcourse, anyone here who would
love to connect I'm atjamesrobbinscom or find me on
LinkedIn James Robbins, two Bs,and just let me know that you
heard me through Gary.
Gary Pageau (29:38):
All right, listen, james.
It's been great talking to you.
I've learned a lot, and that'salways a good sign of a good
podcast when I've learned acouple of things, because I
appreciate your time.
Thank you so much.
James Robbins (29:49):
Gary, thanks for having me on the show.
Erin Manning (29:51):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
Pegeau Society podcast.
Welcome to the Dead PixelsSociety podcast.
I'm your Gary Pageau, andtoday we're joined by James
Robbins, who's a mountainclimber, best-selling author,
(00:31):
and award-winning speaker.
He's going to talk to us todayabout motivation and leadership,
and James is coming to us fromDenver, Colorado.
Hi James, how are you today?
James Robbins (00:38):
Gary, fantastic Thanks for having me on the show
and I love the name Dead PixelsSociety.
Gary Pageau (00:43):
Well, thank you, and well, I appreciate that.
Let's talk first about how youstarted.
I mean, I mean, I've never hada mountain climber that I'm
aware of, that that's the firstthing on their bio.
James Robbins (00:55):
Tell us that story about mountain climbing as
a passion yeah, I would putmyself in the amateur category
for sure, but you've been to theAndes, I've seen that.
Yeah, I've got to do some coolthings.
I actually grew up on a smallcattle ranch in the foothills of
the Rocky Mountains and myfather always had us outdoors
(01:16):
and in the mountains and so itjust was part of my life growing
up and also it just affectedthe lens through which I saw
life.
You know, life is simple butalso there's a lot of mountains
to climb, and that's reallywhere that began.
Gary Pageau (01:31):
Let's talk, then, about the business career,
because you've been doing thebusiness consulting.
You've written several booksover quite a few years.
What's your story there?
How did you get started withthat?
James Robbins (01:45):
So I'm the small-town kid who decided I
wanted to become a moviedirector.
I wanted to make movies with mylife.
So I went to college to go tofilm school and then sort of
ended up taking a right turn Ididn't expect and I went into
ministry and I became a preacher, which was totally shocked my
family Like we didn't grow up inchurch or anything like that.
(02:05):
But I started working in thischurch because I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed helping people.
It was there that you know.
Eventually you got to get upfront and say something and I
was just this shy, introvertedkid.
But that's where it began andthat career over those years.
You know, eventually you haveto start teaching other people
(02:26):
how to be leaders and that endedup turning into helping
business.
People turn into leaders.
So a little bit I'd like to sayI sort of followed in John
Maxwell's path and how hestarted.
Gary Pageau (02:39):
So when you say you had to teach people leadership
from the pulpit right, you hadto teach people leadership from
the pulpit right.
What were some of thoseleadership skills you saw that
you had to pass on, that weretransferable, if you will, from
that environment to the businessworld?
James Robbins (02:56):
Yeah for sure, in those early days, I think for
me a lot of it was the blindleading the blind.
I didn't know if I knew what Iwas talking about, but it passed
on what was passed on to me.
But here's the thing aboutleadership, gary, is that all of
us go through the same door,and that is that anyone here
who's listening, who's a leaderor you're a business owner, you
(03:20):
probably worked somewhere.
You had a job, you were good atit, people trusted you, you
worked hard and eventuallysomeone said, hey, now you're
going to be responsible for someother people.
And here's the thing about thattransition when you go from an
individual contributor to, allof a sudden, now you're leading
people, everything changes,because now, in a sense, what
(03:43):
got you there is not going toget you to the next level,
because now, great point.
Yeah, because now success isnot linked to how well you can
do a job.
Success is now linked to canyou move people?
And if you can't like, if youcan't get the best out of people
, you are going to be limited inyour success as a leader, as a
(04:04):
business owner, you are going tobe limited in your success as a
leader, as a business owner,any of those things you know.
Gary Pageau (04:11):
That's a great point, because you know, I've
worked in various size companiesand you always saw that point
where someone's really doinggood at their job, they're
excelling at a certain rolemaybe customer service or
something and then there'salways this desire that we're
going to put that person incharge because they're good at
what they do, so they're clearlygoing to be good at helping
other people do that thing.
And that's not always the case,right, because the thing that
(04:33):
got them in that position isn'tthe skill that's going to keep
them there.
James Robbins (04:38):
Exactly, and so you think about it.
Somebody gets in a corporateenvironment, they get promoted,
and now they've got this extraresponsibility to move people,
but where their security lies isin producing results through
their talent, right, and so nowthere's this war inside, right,
it's like, well, I just wanttime to do what I'm good at, but
(04:58):
I've got to go and meet theneeds of these employees, and
that's when you get managersthat you know have those days
where they're I hope my staffcan't find me so I can just get
stuff done Right, right, and sothat in a sense, that's the
default.
So so much of what I do incompanies is getting leaders to
get more intentional about thepeople side of leadership.
(05:19):
Right, right, because there'sthe people side there.
Then there's, of course, theprocess side.
Gary Pageau (05:24):
Well, I mean, and then they also may have a
challenge delegating Right,Because if you've got someone
who's really good at doing theirskill and then you make them in
charge of other people who aredoing their skill, you know they
have to be trust the peopleenough to let the people do the
job they were formerly doingformerly doing 100%.
James Robbins (05:43):
And for those of you who are listening, who are
actual business owners, you justalways have to remember almost
no one will do the job as goodas you or as with the same
passion, right?
And so you just have tounderstand that, like, there's a
little bit of letting go ofcontrol and even letting go of
sometimes quality in certainareas, because you know what you
weren't good at it overnighteither.
(06:03):
So it's a process, for sure ofletting go of control and even
letting go of sometimes qualityin certain areas, because you
know what you weren't good at itovernight either.
So it's a process, for sure, ofletting go trusting people.
But, gary, here's the thing Ifyou don't let go and give people
stuff, then they'll do what youask them to do, but they won't
engage on a deeper level.
(06:23):
Right, you can always hire ahand.
Like you can always hire a hand, but you can't hire a heart.
You got to win the heart, andthat's one of the ways you do it
by trusting them with workbecause I find that people who
have a tendency tomicromanagement you know,
towards micromanagement may havetrust issues.
Actually, that's really theproblem it totally can be trust
(06:43):
issues.
Uh, also, let's say, uh, you'vegot a small business owner who
you know you're hustling,grinding and just trying to make
payroll every month.
Then that fear creates morecontrol.
Right, you want to exert morecontrol, and so it's a natural
thing to do, but it's not theright thing.
But I totally understand thefeeling.
Gary Pageau (07:05):
So let's talk about , you know, building a culture
of performance within a business, because that's really what
it's about right?
If you don't have a businessthat has a culture where the
owner or the leader can evenstep away and allow the people
to do the work, then it's nothealthy, it's not sustainable,
(07:28):
if that's the right word.
So what are your definitionalpoints of like, what our
performance culture is?
James Robbins (07:35):
Yeah, gary, and you're so right that if we don't
have a culture that is likethat current in the river, if
that's not flowing and a healthyone, then you can never leave
your business, you can neverstep out.
So when you think about highperformance cultures, they are
first of all driven around somesort of vision point.
So you know, we hear this allthe time about leaders have to
(07:57):
have vision.
And of course it's true, butnot just the big vision.
But you know, breaking thisdown quarter by quarter hey,
what are we doing this quarter?
Where are we going?
Why are we going there?
What are we all about?
That has to be front and centerall the time because that's how
we're going to tap into purpose.
But that's just one piece ofthe culture.
(08:19):
To distill this like in assimple as I can, it would be
that in the context of thatvision and where we're going,
there are clear targets thathave high expectations, that are
challenging for people.
So think about that.
Our goal when we're trying toget the best out of people,
create a high performanceculture.
You don't get that by justhaving a nice laissez-faire
(08:44):
workplace.
No, you have a workplace wherepeople have targets and they're
going after them and they'reheld accountable.
So all this sounds very mean andscary in some ways if you look
at it like that, but that has tobe balanced with the other side
of that, and that other side ofit is caring about your staff
having their back, creating aplace for them that's
(09:07):
psychologically safe, and theleaders that can do that, create
this safety and create a placeof high expectations and then
supporting people to get there.
That's where you really beginto unlock the magic in your
staff right.
That's when people beginbringing.
They begin unlocking parts ofthemselves to throw into your
(09:27):
company that they haven't given.
Anyone else Does that make?
Gary Pageau (09:31):
sense?
Yeah, absolutely so.
The question is is who setsthose goals, who sets those
standards?
Because if the leadership isout of touch, they may set
either unrealistic goals orgoals that aren't really
suitable or appropriate.
Let's put it that way and ifyou let the staff set the goals,
they may not align those goalswith the direction of the
(09:56):
business.
It just says, hey, this is thestuff I'm good at and this is
what I'm going to do.
James Robbins (10:01):
Yeah.
So here's how I view it, here'show I teach.
It is that, at the end of theday, who's ever the top leader?
You're responsible fordecisions.
Right, you should includepeople.
If you want them to buy intothe vision, they've got to be
part of the process.
But at the end of the day,they're not being paid to make
the final decision, because thefinal decision, if it's a
(10:24):
victory, of course it's theteam's.
If it doesn't go well, theperson who made the decision has
to own that, and that's goingto be the business owner.
You've got to be able to ownthat.
So of course, you want to bringpeople in.
Sometimes, things I used to dowhere I would have a pretty good
idea where we need to go, andit might even be something that
(10:45):
was a different direction, and Iwouldn't tell my staff.
I would first say, hey, let'stalk a little bit about some
ideas for the future, and Iwould get them all to weigh in.
Of course I'm listening becausemaybe something that they would
say would change my thinking.
But if it didn't, and whoeverwas kind of the closest to what
(11:06):
I was already thinking, I wouldsay I love what Sarah said.
I've been thinking somethingsimilar and this is what we're
going to do.
So in that way, you're bringingyour staff in, getting their
input, but at the end of the day, they want you to make a final
choice.
Gary Pageau (11:23):
They want you to make a final choice.
So a lot of my listenershipright are people who either grew
up in their business or theystarted their business, so they
may not have a lot ofprofessional leadership training
per se right, or even thebusiness they're in.
I know several large companiesthey don't do.
You know, in today'senvironment they're not doing a
lot of great leadership trainingbecause, you know, cost cutting
(11:45):
or pressures in the market orsomething like that.
So where are some places peoplecan get some good information
about everyday resources?
Not, you know, we're going totalk about your book
specifically later on, but rightnow it's sort of non James
Robbins resources.
James Robbins (12:03):
For sure.
Well, I've read a lot of them,them.
So here's the thing aboutleadership.
The biggest thing aboutleadership is that you just have
to lead with intention.
You have to be intentional.
The things that drive humanmotivation and engagement are
not mysterious, right, right andwhy is it so hard then?
(12:23):
it's so hard because we have thewe're're juggling priorities
right.
So in a big corporateenvironment, someone's breathing
down your neck to produce someresults.
So you feel you know yourhair's on fire.
Then you think, well, we justgot to keep shoving that at your
staff instead of taking the 30seconds to say to Mary hey Mary,
how was your son Joey's soccertournament on the weekend?
(12:44):
Like that's leadership, becauseyou're creating those bonds and
those connections.
So when it comes down to it,leadership at the end of the day
again, it's going to be somesimple things and all of those
things can be learned.
But to my point was we're notgoing to discover something
three years from now that we'relike oh my goodness, this is a
new discovery.
It's a little bit like six packabs, like if you are waiting
(13:07):
for some new research to comeout on how to get a six pack,
I'm sorry to tell you it's notgoing to come out.
We all know how to get six packabs.
I don't have them.
Gary, if you punch me in thestomach, you will not hurt your
hand right so.
I do not have six pack abs, butit's not a knowledge problem,
it's an execution problem.
Leadership's the same, and thechallenge for most people is
(13:30):
it's actually twofold.
A lot of leaders are like, well, can I really have an impact on
staff motivation?
And the answer is yes.
And the second one is, well,yeah, but where do I focus?
Because I just don't have time.
So that's what we're fightingagainst.
It's really it's the timepressure, and the great thing
about leadership is leadership.
Great leadership is actuallythe little things that are done
(13:52):
consistently.
And, Gary, I don't know if youplayed sports when you're
growing up or if you had somegreat bosses that you can look
back to, but I bet any of thepositive examples they're going
to be they did these smallthings just consistently.
Yeah.
Gary Pageau (14:09):
Yeah, and that's, I think, part of it is.
You know, the consistency thingI think is is the piece right,
Because sometimes it's like youknow, business runs into trouble
.
They're having a challenge andleadership says, oh, we have to
be leaders now, so and theyreally haven't built up the
equity right, they haven'tdeposited in the bank or
whatever phrase you want to talkabout, where they built the
(14:32):
leadership over time.
They can quickly solve theproblem with some attention, and
it takes time is the challenge.
James Robbins (14:40):
It does.
And all this to come back tothe question you asked that I
didn't answer yet.
But that has to do with goodresources.
So here's the thing it's noteven so much whether the
resource is good, it's just thatyou have a constant immersion
in leadership.
So when I was a young preacher,I was just devouring books on
leadership.
Now, if I were to go back intime and now look at them, I
(15:03):
would probably look at themdifferently.
But at the time I was justsoaking everything up and you
know, my wife at one time waslike you bought another
leadership book and the wholepoint was because I just need it
consistently in my life.
Right, and that's the mostimportant thing I think for
leaders is look, just some newleadership book comes out, great
(15:27):
, buy it and just start workingthrough it.
You're reading two or three atthe same time.
There's so many resources.
Today, of course, we've got AI,can tell you things, but I think
also you can read greatbiographies.
You know, I was just readingone about the guy who turned
around Best Buy.
I forget his name now, but hetalked about joy at work.
I love reading how they come inand think about that, and then
(15:50):
you can go.
How does this apply to mycompany?
What does what doesn't right?
It's just like eating fish eatthe meat and spit the bones out,
but a constant diet ofeducation is important.
Gary Pageau (16:04):
Because I think that's where some people may
even avoid management, becauseit's almost like you know, if I
get too close to the employees,they might ask me for something,
and you know what I mean.
Have you ever encountered thatkind of idea?
James Robbins (16:20):
for sure.
So one of the things that whenwe're training leaders in a
company, one of our foundationalpoints is you just need to care
about your staff, you just careabout them.
You don't have to be theirfriend, but you need to care
about them.
You need to have a genuineinterest in them as people.
And some people are like, ah,but that's not professional.
I'm like, well, I'm not surewhere you got that definition of
(16:43):
professional.
I get what you're saying, ofcourse, of professional.
I get what you're saying, ofcourse, be professional, but you
can be genuinely interested inthem as people, because that
creates that reciprocity.
That's as basic as it gets, butit's so powerful.
Gary Pageau (16:56):
I still think, even though it's 2025, we start kind
of grappling with sort of thestill tail end of like 50s
management styles of you knowhierarchies and divisions and
things like that.
Was there anything to learnfrom that sort of you know
corporate culture?
Was it me, was it the rest?
Because I hear some people allyou know that was dead, you got
(17:18):
to be totally horizontal and youknow different kind of business
structures.
But but I tend to think maybethere was some value there 100%.
James Robbins (17:28):
So think of it from this perspective.
Like, at the end of the day,what you most want with your
employees is for them to givetheir best, and a big piece of
them giving their best isfeeling a sense of ownership.
So the idea where people cameout and said, hey, let's just
flatten the organization Well,okay, you can do that.
(17:52):
You gain some strengths fromthat, but you also lose some
things from that.
What you lose is when you havea great leader who's over five
or six or seven people, thatleader is able to have an
incredible impact on those five,six or seven or so.
Then just this flatorganization, right.
If you got a flat organization,who's?
(18:13):
Who's caring about you?
Who's coaching you?
Right?
Who's sitting down with you andsaying, hey, I want to talk
with you about what you did lastweek was amazing, because no
one's eyes going to be on you.
It's a little bit like ahospital.
You got a charge nurse andthey're over, you know, 40
nurses.
From an organizational point,it works.
But here's the thing If youhave leaders that are trained,
(18:38):
then it's okay to have ahierarchy.
And, to the point about 1950s,you know, I think the problem
then was you know, I'm a Gen Xer, so I grew up with bosses that
you know A they weren't going tocare about me.
No one recognized me, no onecoached me.
You know, I'm going to talk toyou when you've screwed up.
But part of it was also thatwas the culture at the time, so
(19:02):
you didn't know what you'remissing.
Culture at the time, so youdidn't know what you're missing.
The strength was.
The strength in that was you asan employee showed up and we're
like all right, I better, Ibetter focus.
You know I got to do my thing.
I don't want to yell that?
Yeah, exactly, and.
But you know again, it comesback to my point about ownership
.
You want people to takeownership and to do that, we've
(19:26):
got to give them something toown, but we've got to give them
something to strive for.
Because, if you think about,there's the psychological
process that you know we callstriving right.
When somebody has a clear goalthat's challenging and they're
going after, well, the leaderhas to be part of that process.
Right, helping set a goal forsomeone.
A lot of times people will seta goal but it won't be that
(19:49):
challenging and so the leader isgoing to bump it up going.
No, I think you can do more.
I think you can do this.
We all need that push from timeto time.
I do not believe that everyone'sjust going to be so
self-motivated.
You know who's self-motivatedthe business owners.
They.
You know who's self-motivated.
The business owners.
Right, they're motivatedbecause there's so much on the
line.
Sure, you know we don't makemore sales.
(20:09):
How am I going to make payroll?
You take that pressure with youto bed.
Yeah, you're engaged, but youremployee who comes in?
who's running the cash?
register, they're going to leaveat five and clock out mentally.
But when you can get them moreengaged and feel some ownership
for the store, they might leaveat five.
(20:31):
But then they're thinking, theygo over to another camera store
and all of a sudden they'relike, wow, they do this, that's
a good idea, we should do this.
And now they're also thinkingright, like an owner.
Gary Pageau (20:43):
Because I think that is one of the challenges
with, especially in today'sworkplace Right, you mentioned
Gen Xers, right?
So you got the Gen Z people nowwhere there is sort of this
disengagement in a lot to adegree in the workplace.
Do you think leadership is theway to solve that problem, or do
you think there's too muchcynicism out there now?
James Robbins (21:05):
Leadership is how you solve the problem, and what
I've learned is that the thingsthat drive Gen Xers also drive
millennials, also drive Gen Zers.
It just has to be presented ina bit different way.
But who doesn't want to becared about at work?
Baby boomers not so much, butfor everyone on down like it
makes a bigger difference.
Who doesn't want to accomplishsomething great, who doesn't
(21:28):
want to be part of somethinggreat?
I think what Gen Z has donemillennials a little bit as well
, but I think what Gen Z hasdone is has raised the bar for
the type of leadership needed.
The problem is not with Gen Z,the problem is with leaders, and
if you want to lead a veryengaged group of Gen Z, you got
(21:52):
to raise the level of yourleadership.
And I've seen organizationsthat have, you know, scores of
Gen Z, millennials and Gen Xersall working together and
everyone was called back to work.
They all came back to work.
They were motivated and engaged.
Their boss was a boomer, sothey had every generation there.
Gary Pageau (22:13):
It's not about the generation, it's about how
they're led well, the thingabout gen z, I will say and I'm
not necessarily negative on thatdemographic is they can smell
inauthenticity a mile away.
I mean more you know, in thesense that you know if the
(22:38):
leadership is not carryingthrough or living up to what
they're professing they're doing.
They're going to know, probablybefore anyone else.
James Robbins (22:44):
Yeah, exactly Gary.
And I think another strength ofGen Z is they're not afraid of
you.
And what I mean this is that,you know, in the old days it's
like your boss, you know, yelledat you.
You were just, you know, kindof cowered in a corner and like,
okay, I'll do it differentlynext time, even though I did it
right.
A Gen Zer is going to listen toyou.
(23:04):
Let's say, you yell at them.
They're just going to standthere and look at you, at them.
They're just going to standthere and look at you and then,
when you're done, they're goingto say, well, you know what?
You told me this, I did this, Istand by my decision.
And then it's going to take youto to up your leadership,
whether that's you realizing youwere wrong, or how do you help
direct their thinking?
Because that's just what thatgeneration is.
(23:28):
I think it's a great strength.
Gary Pageau (23:30):
That's a great way to put it, because you know
again from people of a differentgeneration.
Let's say you know there issort of a generational
interpretation that gets there.
You know you always read somevery positive things about you
know Gen Z in terms of you knowempathy, and they do work hard
if they do believe in whatthey're doing right.
So the challenge fromleadership is to inspire them to
(23:52):
do that, whereas I think youknow older generations well.
Your inspiration is you getpaid every two weeks.
That should be your inspiration.
James Robbins (24:00):
Yeah, like when I was graduating from Gary high
school, like back then it waslike you must go to college or
you have failed.
That was the first thing, right.
Or go work in the oil patch,get a job with the postal
service.
And now you've got these GenZ's coming to work and in the
back of their mind they're likewell, I got a friend making
$40,000 a month, you know,making content, I can always go
(24:21):
do that, but I figure I'll trywork this job Like they are in a
world that we didn't get toexperience Right, and they've
got more options than ever.
And so you know.
A great way actually to look atleading Gen Z.
It's almost like you arerunning a not-for-profit and
they are volunteers, and I thinkthat's actually what helped me
(24:43):
with leadership was working somany years in the ministry is
that you have a paid staff butthen you have this bulk of
volunteers.
You can't kick them out, youcan't fire them.
You've got to find a way towork with them.
That's a little bit what Gen Zis like and it takes a lot more
learning.
Things like the relationalinfluence, influence about
(25:05):
purpose, not just show up and doyour job.
Gary Pageau (25:08):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So if someone were to look atleadership now, obviously you're
a leadership coach and aspeaker, so you think it's
pretty important.
Where does it rank on otherskills in the plateau?
Do you think business leadersshould be spending all this time
leading and motivating, or whatdo you think the percentage is
(25:30):
there in terms of time andattention?
Obviously, for someone like you, you're gonna say it's pretty
high, but you know there areother things that need to get
done sometimes.
James Robbins (25:38):
Yeah, it's really going to depend, gary, on the
industry and what's going on.
You got some leaders who are,you know, in the trenches with
their team, and they're havingto get stuff done.
You got some a business ownerin a larger company Okay, that's
going to look differently.
It's all just going to comeback, though, is am I getting
the best out of my people?
Right?
(25:59):
So, as a leader, there's acertain piece of the processes
and systems you have to have inplace, right, and you got to
have you know what's our OKRsfor the next quarter and how are
we going to measure?
What are our KPIs?
And, of course, there's all ofthat holding people accountable.
But, on the other side, yeah,how do I extract potential?
(26:19):
Because, think of it in thisway, gary, like you and I can
come to work, and on our worstday versus our best day, at
least for me, that's a prettybig gulf, right.
The gulf between me at my bestand me at my half slacking it,
that's a lot.
Now, multiply that by theamount of employees you have,
(26:39):
right?
I was speaking to a big miningcompany in Canada.
They had 3,000 employees, andI'm just with all the leaders,
and I told them.
I said what if I could give you300 more employees that you
didn't have to pay for and werealready trained?
Would you want them?
Of course the answer is yes andI said well then all we have to
do is get 3,000 people 10% moreengaged, and there's your 300
(27:04):
employees.
It's like when the governmentwants to save energy, they tell
everyone just drop yourthermostat in your house by one
degree.
If everyone just does it by one, we save millions of dollars.
The same thing there how can Iget my people just a little bit
more engaged?
So again, without your people,unless you've got AI employees
(27:28):
to take their place, withoutyour people, you don't have a
business.
So back to the question wheredoes that rank?
I'm going to put it at the verytop, because you might have a
great product, but if yourculture is not strong and people
keep quitting and you're justhaving to replace new employees,
and now you've got a new personand you've got to retrain them,
(27:49):
and then they quit.
Now you've got a new person,you've got to retrain them, and
then they quit.
Gary Pageau (27:52):
You can't serve the customer, right?
Yeah, I always think that whenyou have people leaving a
business frequently, they havetrouble retaining people, right,
it's like, well, they don't payenough, or whatever.
No, it's a leadership problem,because most people leave
because of bad leadership.
James Robbins (28:10):
You are 100% right, 100 right.
There's the.
Of course, there's oddsituations where someone I lost
an employee, um because a cryptocompany came in and offered her
three times more than when Iwas paying her like 300 more.
jamesrobbins.
Yeah but even then she was acrypto so well even then he was
(28:31):
like I don't know if I shouldtake it, and I was like of
course you have to take it, it'sa great opportunity for you.
But you know, even then I meanI was 300%.
Imagine if someone wants totriple your salary but you're
still thinking of maybe Ishouldn't leave the company that
I'm in.
Well, that's what you want tobuild, right?
Awesome?
Gary Pageau (28:50):
Well, speaking of building, where can people go
for more information Because youdo have a new book coming out,
so tell us a little bit aboutthat and where people can find
more information on that.
James Robbins (28:59):
I have a new book coming out yes, thanks for
bringing that up and it's moreof personal leadership than it
is about leading your teams.
Like my other book, the name isthe Call to Climb.
It's actually a fable and it'sall about when your life gets a
little bit out of alignment.
It's time to have aconversation with your inner
(29:20):
life and get things right.
So that book comes out inAugust.
I'm excited about that, but, ofcourse, anyone here who would
love to connect I'm atjamesrobbinscom or find me on
LinkedIn James Robbins, two Bs,and just let me know that you
heard me through Gary.
Gary Pageau (29:38):
All right, listen, james.
It's been great talking to you.
I've learned a lot, and that'salways a good sign of a good
podcast when I've learned acouple of things, because I
appreciate your time.
Thank you so much.
James Robbins (29:49):
Gary, thanks for having me on the show.
Erin Manning (29:51):
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel
Society podcast.
Read more great stories andsign up for the newsletter at
wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
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