Cephstravanganza with Professor Kat Bolstad

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker: You're on the ride with the blood vessels. (00:02):
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Speaker: The hills don't express. (00:05):
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Deep (00:06):
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Speaker: Sea Podcast, a punk take on (00:08):
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Speaker: science podcast about everything (00:09):
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Speaker: deep sea. (00:11):
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Speaker: I'm doctor Tom Lindley, curator (00:11):
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Speaker: of fishes at the National Museum (00:13):
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Speaker: of New Zealand Te Papa (00:14):
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Speaker: Tongarewa. (00:15):
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Speaker: And with me, as ever, is Professor Alan Jamieson, (00:16):
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Speaker: director of the Deep Sea Research Centre at the (00:20):
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Speaker: University of Western Australia and Scientists for fish. (00:22):
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Speaker: Any of our dumb opinions are our (00:25):
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Speaker: own and do not reflect the (00:27):
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Speaker: opinions of our respective (00:29):
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Speaker: organisations. (00:30):
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Speaker: Hello, mate. (00:31):
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Speaker: Hello. (00:32):
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Speaker: How are you coping in the heat? (00:33):
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Speaker: Uh, it's not the heat that's getting me down today. (00:34):
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Speaker: It's, uh, just come off the back (00:37):
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Speaker: of a five day conference with (00:38):
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Speaker: fifty deep sea people I've been (00:40):
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Speaker: organising this week, and I'm (00:41):
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Speaker: exhausted. (00:42):
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Speaker: And Friday night was a bit wild. (00:43):
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Speaker: So it's now Saturday evening, and I still feel rough. (00:44):
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Speaker: There was lots of friends of the podcast. (00:47):
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Speaker: Yeah, Giorgio was presenting. (00:49):
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Speaker: Old mate was there. (00:51):
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Speaker: He had a big barbecue for fifty people. (00:52):
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Speaker: Heather Stewart was there. (00:54):
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Speaker: She's been on the podcast before. (00:55):
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Speaker: That's an Aussie wedding, isn't it? (00:57):
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Speaker: Cooking a barbecue for fifty people? (00:58):
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Speaker: Yeah. (00:59):
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Speaker: Pretty much yeah. (01:00):
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Speaker: Did it on the shores of Matilda Bay. (01:00):
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Speaker: Oh. Very good. (01:02):
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Speaker: He did well. (01:03):
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Speaker: He did very well. (01:04):
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Speaker: As you would expect, we called (01:05):
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Speaker: the old mates classic Aussie (01:06):
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Speaker: sausage sizzle. (01:08):
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Speaker: Very good. (01:11):
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Speaker: Oh, Jakob was there as well. (01:12):
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Speaker: Of course. (01:13):
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Speaker: Yay! (01:14):
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Speaker: Now, celebrity Jakob folk like that episode. (01:14):
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Speaker: It was really nice. (01:17):
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Speaker: That was great. (01:18):
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Speaker: I was listening to it in the car driving around the Canary (01:18):
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Speaker: Islands a month ago. (01:20):
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Speaker: It was quite funny. (01:21):
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Speaker: It's a great story. (01:22):
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Speaker: Yeah, he's sort of observations and bringing it full circle. (01:23):
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Speaker: It was it was really enjoyable. (01:26):
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Speaker: Anyone who didn't catch that (01:27):
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Speaker: episode, that was our eco stop, (01:28):
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Speaker: uh, where Jakob talks about (01:31):
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Speaker: growing up in a culture where (01:33):
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Speaker: there wasn't really a concept of (01:34):
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Speaker: the ocean, and then finding (01:36):
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Speaker: himself at five thousand meters (01:37):
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Speaker: deep. (01:38):
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Speaker: Yeah, really nice story. (01:39):
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Speaker: Yes, it was a good week. (01:40):
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Speaker: Lots of good talks, lots of geology, biology, ecology, (01:41):
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Speaker: oceanography, big mix of everything we've done in the (01:44):
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Speaker: last few years and good chats about what we're going to do in (01:47):
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Speaker: the next five years. (01:49):
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Speaker: Really good. (01:50):
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Speaker: I'm just exhausted. (01:50):
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Speaker: It's really hard work organising a science conference. (01:51):
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Speaker: It's hard. (01:54):
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Speaker: Well, Devin was there as well, our glaciologist. (01:55):
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Speaker: Hey, he was there. (01:57):
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Speaker: I feel rough and tired as well, (01:58):
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Speaker: but my reason maybe isn't quite (02:01):
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Speaker: so good. (02:02):
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Speaker: I got up at two thirty in the (02:03):
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Speaker: morning to join some local (02:04):
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Speaker: fishers, who had kindly offered (02:06):
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Speaker: to take me and Kat out to deep (02:07):
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Speaker: water to test some of our new (02:09):
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Speaker: equipment before we head off to (02:10):
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Speaker: Antarctica again. (02:11):
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Speaker: And so I just want to say a massive thank you to William and (02:13):
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Speaker: Richie from W McWilliam, fishing for taking us out. (02:16):
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Speaker: And I'm sorry I was sick the whole time. (02:20):
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Speaker: I was really I was really spewing. (02:24):
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Speaker: Um, but these guys, uh, send some crab pots down really deep (02:27):
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Speaker: into almost a thousand meters. (02:31):
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Speaker: Richie has an Instagram where he posts some of the most (02:33):
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Speaker: interesting stuff that they, uh, bring up, and, uh, they return (02:35):
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Speaker: everything that they can. (02:39):
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Speaker: So everything that's alive, they, uh, they return. (02:40):
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Speaker: So you can check out tales from the Deep on Instagram to see (02:42):
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Speaker: some of those pictures. (02:47):
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Speaker: It's a really nice blobfish as well. (02:48):
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Speaker: And apparently the blobfish was fine. (02:49):
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Speaker: They they released it and it went straight back down. (02:51):
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Speaker: So thanks for the help, lads. (02:53):
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Speaker: Really appreciate that today. (02:55):
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Speaker: We wouldn't have been able to do that otherwise. (02:56):
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Speaker: My other bit of news is I've got an exhibition opening soon. (02:57):
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Speaker: It's my first first time curating in a museum anyway, and (03:01):
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Speaker: I did a curate. (03:06):
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Speaker: There isn't a single fish in it, but it does explore sort of our (03:07):
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Speaker: relationship and place within the natural world. (03:10):
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Speaker: It turns science into art, which is why I got involved with it. (03:13):
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Speaker: So it's a London based (03:16):
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Speaker: collective called Marshmallow (03:17):
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Speaker: Laser Feast. (03:18):
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Speaker: They do things like lidar scan trees in the Amazon, but then (03:19):
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Speaker: also scan below the soil surface and create these incredible (03:23):
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Speaker: digital arts where like, you can see the nutrients coming up the (03:27):
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Speaker: trunk and things like that. (03:30):
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Speaker: And it's all about sort of breath, the tree exhaling as you (03:31):
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Speaker: inhale kind of thing. (03:35):
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Speaker: It's it's really nice. (03:36):
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Speaker: It's quite spiritual, but it's sort of grounded in science. (03:37):
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Speaker: So that's going to be into Papa (03:41):
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Speaker: in a couple of weeks all over (03:43):
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Speaker: the summer. (03:44):
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Speaker: It's called breathe. (03:45):
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Speaker: Moreira. (03:46):
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Speaker: And so anyone in Wellington please come and check it out. (03:47):
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Speaker: And we've got some events coming on as well. (03:50):
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Speaker: So you might see me doing (03:51):
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Speaker: things, doing things related to (03:52):
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Speaker: the show, but I've not done that (03:54):
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Speaker: before. (03:55):
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Speaker: That was that was really nice, actually. (03:56):
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Speaker: I got really into the into the (03:57):
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Speaker: show and it nice palate (03:59):
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Speaker: cleanser. (04:00):
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Speaker: Like I said, there's not a single fish in it, but it dealt (04:00):
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Speaker: with some quite, quite big concepts that I quite liked. (04:02):
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Speaker: So anyone who particularly liked our eco anxiety episode, yeah, (04:05):
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Speaker: touches on a lot of those feelings really sort of being (04:09):
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Speaker: connected to and part of nature. (04:11):
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Speaker: Really good fun. (04:13):
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Speaker: Are people expected to part with their hard earned money to come (04:14):
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Speaker: and see you doing a curate? (04:16):
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Speaker: Yes, yes, that's a hard sell. (04:18):
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Speaker: My family, and in particular my son, is very upset by the fact (04:21):
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Speaker: that people pay money to hear daddy talk, but daddy talks too (04:26):
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Speaker: much and he is boring. (04:29):
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Speaker: But some people like it. (04:31):
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Speaker: Maybe he'll grow up to start a business where people pay him to (04:33):
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Speaker: stop you talking. (04:36):
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Speaker: He just comes into your house and deletes the podcast. (04:37):
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Speaker: Yes, you don't need that. (04:39):
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Speaker: You don't need that man. (04:40):
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Speaker: I lived with him. (04:41):
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Speaker: Yeah, it really gets grating after a while. (04:42):
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Speaker: Uh, we couldn't do the show without our patrons. (04:46):
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Speaker: Um, it really is what keeps it going. (04:48):
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Speaker: Uh, so I just wanted to say a (04:50):
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Speaker: massive thank you this month to (04:52):
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Speaker: Elizabeth Grace Demeyer and Nez (04:54):
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Speaker: Morgan. (04:57):
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Speaker: So thank you to our new patrons who keep the show going. (04:58):
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Speaker: We've not done a song of the (05:01):
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Speaker: month in a while, and I gotta (05:02):
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Speaker: say, that's because I'm afraid (05:04):
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Speaker: of Spotify. (05:05):
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Speaker: I've gotten really fastidious (05:06):
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Speaker: with the tagging of any music in (05:08):
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Speaker: podcasts. (05:10):
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Speaker: Annoyingly, there's no human beings that review that, so just (05:11):
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Speaker: a robot notices that there's a piece of a copyrighted piece of (05:15):
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Speaker: music on there and then takes you a whole show down, and it's (05:19):
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Speaker: like a week long appeals process to try and get a human being to (05:22):
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Speaker: then reinstate it. (05:25):
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Speaker: And that could be quite damaging (05:26):
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Speaker: to a podcast if you disappear (05:27):
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Speaker: for a while and then sort of (05:28):
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Speaker: come back. (05:29):
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Speaker: So yeah, I've been a little bit (05:30):
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Speaker: nervous, but I like a bit of (05:31):
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Speaker: music. (05:33):
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Speaker: I like the little segue. (05:34):
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Speaker: You had one on the discord, Alan. (05:35):
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Speaker: There's something. (05:37):
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Speaker: You saw them. (05:37):
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Speaker: You saw them live. (05:38):
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Speaker: You gazed upon their visage. (05:39):
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Speaker: Yes. (05:41):
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Speaker: When I was in the UK recently, I (05:41):
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Speaker: went to see Megadeth, took my (05:43):
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Speaker: son to his first metal concert, (05:44):
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Speaker: Megadeth supporting disturbed, (05:47):
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Speaker: which I don't agree with that (05:48):
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Speaker: order of events, but like both (05:50):
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Speaker: bands. (05:53):
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Speaker: But Megadeth should never be a support band. (05:54):
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Speaker: But they were great. (05:56):
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Speaker: Absolutely brilliant. (05:57):
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Speaker: So actually, I could send you a video, all right. (05:58):
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Speaker: With with audio of said son playing Megadeth. (06:01):
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Speaker: Oh, perfect. (06:05):
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Speaker: Perfect. (06:06):
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Speaker: Okay. (06:07):
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Speaker: Spotify is not going to get you there. (06:08):
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Speaker: No, that's original content unless it's really, really good. (06:09):
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Speaker: And it sounds like the album version is nearly that good. (06:11):
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Speaker: Yeah, well we'll see. (06:14):
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Speaker: We'll let the voters decide. (06:15):
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Speaker: We'll let Spotify algorithm decide. (06:16):
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Speaker: Grant, do you want to introduce it? (06:19):
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Speaker: What's the track? (06:20):
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Speaker: Uh, he's planning to play a song from the Rust in Peace album (06:21):
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Speaker: called Tornado of Souls. (06:25):
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Speaker: Nice. (06:26):
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Speaker: By the way, we've got a lovely (06:27):
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Speaker: new website up and running at (06:29):
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Speaker: WW. (06:31):
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Speaker: Uh, so that's where you can find loads more information about any (06:34):
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Speaker: of these new stories. (06:37):
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Speaker: We always try and put some wider reading on there. (06:38):
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Speaker: Lead you to the papers or the larger articles or videos. (06:40):
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Speaker: So if you ever want to know more about these things, just hop on (06:43):
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Speaker: over to there. (06:46):
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Speaker: So in the news this month, the (06:47):
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Speaker: world's largest race may be (06:49):
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Speaker: diving to extreme depths to (06:51):
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Speaker: build mental maps of vast (06:52):
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Speaker: oceans. (06:54):
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Speaker: So this is a team of scientists from Peru, Indonesia and New (06:54):
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Speaker: Zealand who've been tagging manta rays around New Zealand (06:58):
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Speaker: and the diving as deep as twelve hundred meters, which I think (07:01):
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Speaker: the more people tag, the more these depth ranges get bigger (07:04):
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Speaker: and bigger and bigger. (07:07):
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Speaker: I think things go much deeper than we think they do. (07:07):
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Speaker: So these deep dives are (07:09):
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Speaker: typically followed by extensive (07:10):
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Speaker: horizontal relocations, which (07:12):
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Speaker: kind of suggest that the dives (07:14):
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Speaker: are helping the rays gather (07:16):
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Speaker: navigational information about (07:17):
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Speaker: the environment. (07:18):
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Speaker: Like we would pop our head up out of the water to check where (07:19):
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Speaker: land is and then pop back down and swim there. (07:22):
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Speaker: Doing that the other way around, diving deep, coming up, moving (07:24):
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Speaker: along a bit, diving deep again and spending very, very little (07:27):
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Speaker: to no time at all at depth, which means they're not doing (07:30):
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Speaker: anything on the bottom. (07:33):
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Speaker: So it might be a good way of (07:34):
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Speaker: picking up the magnetic field, (07:34):
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Speaker: or maybe feeling temperature (07:36):
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Speaker: changes or feeling deeper (07:37):
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Speaker: current directions. (07:39):
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Speaker: Maybe surface currents change quite a lot, but if you can get (07:40):
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Speaker: deep enough to the those dominant currents, it's quite a (07:42):
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Speaker: good way of like, oh right, that one's heading north. (07:46):
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Speaker: Yeah, it's pretty cool. (07:49):
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Speaker: Yeah, they're up to something over a thousand meters. (07:50):
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Speaker: That's going to mess up George's Edna, isn't it? (07:52):
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Speaker: Oh, I bet they're leaking like a sieve. (07:55):
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Speaker: There's loads of DNA's coming off them. (07:57):
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Speaker: Yeah, but they've been squeezed out with those rays. (07:59):
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Speaker: Yeah, it's a big plate with a face. (08:01):
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Speaker: Yeah, it's like a weird face as well. (08:03):
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Speaker: Scoopy face? (08:05):
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Speaker: A new AI tool for deep sea research. (08:07):
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Speaker: So it's a deep sea exploration artificial intelligence model (08:10):
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Speaker: named depth GPT. (08:13):
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Speaker: And it was developed by a team led by a Chinese scientist and (08:16):
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Speaker: was recently launched to help explore the deep sea. (08:20):
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Speaker: Interestingly, the model (08:23):
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Speaker: combines AI technologies such as (08:24):
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Speaker: deep learning, large language (08:26):
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Speaker: models, computer vision, (08:27):
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Speaker: knowledge, reasoning to analyse (08:29):
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Speaker: various types of data including (08:31):
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Speaker: video footage, topography, (08:33):
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Speaker: hydrodynamics, sediment and (08:35):
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Speaker: bioacoustics. (08:37):
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Speaker: So there's a few things that have gone along this path. (08:37):
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Speaker: Um, mainly sort of image annotation stuff, but this (08:41):
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Speaker: sounds like it ingests lots of different types of data and (08:43):
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Speaker: tries to sort of harmonize them. (08:47):
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Speaker: I'd certainly take this for a spin and see how it works. (08:48):
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Speaker: Uh, yeah. (08:51):
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Speaker: I'll just I'll just ask to borrow it. (08:52):
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Speaker: Mess with it. (08:54):
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Speaker: Just get stuck in, Tom. (08:56):
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Speaker: Just get stuck in. (08:56):
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Speaker: Can you see if I can break it? (08:57):
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Speaker: And then. (08:59):
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Speaker: And before you get stuck, I remember and whisper the words (08:59):
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Speaker: for science smash, smash depth. (09:01):
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Speaker: GPT is a product of the Digital (09:03):
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Speaker: Depth Project, which is (09:07):
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Speaker: dedicated to studying deep sea (09:09):
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Speaker: ecosystems and was launched as (09:11):
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Speaker: part of the UN Decade of Ocean (09:12):
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Speaker: Sciences for Sustainable (09:15):
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Speaker: Development. (09:16):
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Speaker: So fun new tool coming out, big data, lots of data going in, (09:17):
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Speaker: revealing patterns that might not be obvious to the human (09:21):
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Speaker: observer, things happening on a large scale, and interesting (09:24):
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Speaker: correlations between things. (09:28):
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Speaker: What's going on with fat molecules are, I don't know, fat (09:30):
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Speaker: molecules doing something. (09:33):
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Speaker: Maybe in the are the molecules made of fat or particularly (09:34):
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Speaker: chubby looking molecules. (09:38):
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Speaker: Oh a little molecules. (09:39):
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Speaker: Just little rotund molecules. (09:41):
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Speaker: Fat molecules found in deep sea mud volcanoes somewhere around (09:43):
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Speaker: the Mariana Trench by the German ship Zöllner are o sauna sauna. (09:47):
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Speaker: On a side note, I have to be on (09:53):
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Speaker: a river cruise yesterday with my (09:54):
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Speaker: fifty delegates on a two story (09:55):
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Speaker: high glass cube that goes up and (09:57):
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Speaker: down the Swan River, and one of (09:58):
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Speaker: the songs came on was the Final (09:59):
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Speaker: Countdown. (10:00):
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Speaker: I'm not going to put any context (10:01):
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Speaker: for the viewers there, just for (10:03):
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Speaker: me. (10:04):
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Speaker: Just for me and al. Tom, Tom plus Zona Plus Final Countdown (10:04):
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Speaker: is a great story. (10:08):
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Speaker: Maybe because anyway, yeah. (10:09):
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Speaker: The fat molecules found in a mud volcano near the Mariana Trench. (10:11):
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Speaker: So locating life in these bright blue mud samples wasn't easy. (10:16):
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Speaker: Apparently the sparse number of cells identified and the low (10:19):
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Speaker: biomass pulled from the samples made it impossible to identify (10:23):
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Speaker: species by analyzing their DNA. (10:26):
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Speaker: Cut a long story short, the microbes are archaea, not (10:27):
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Speaker: bacteria, not viruses. (10:31):
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Speaker: They're just another thing. (10:32):
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Speaker: But small animals say before that I don't understand anything (10:34):
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Speaker: I can't drill a hole through. (10:37):
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Speaker: Yeah, archaea are one of those things. (10:38):
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Speaker: Yeah, they're they're in that. (10:41):
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Speaker: Put it on the list of things I'm (10:42):
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Speaker: putting away, because I just (10:44):
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Speaker: can't get my head around all the (10:45):
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Speaker: tiny. (10:47):
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Speaker: Even if they're fat, they're still tiny. (10:47):
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Speaker: Even the fat ones. (10:49):
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Speaker: Yeah, they're just fatter. (10:50):
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Speaker: Anyway, the team also examined carbon isotopes from the sample (10:52):
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Speaker: and estimated the various groups of archaea have existed in the (10:55):
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Speaker: mud volcanoes over time. (10:57):
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Speaker: Earlier dated bacteria combined resources to produce methane. (10:59):
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Speaker: However, later living species used sulfates and methane (11:03):
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Speaker: oxidization to survive. (11:06):
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Speaker: So I guess that's a big deal for people who like small things. (11:09):
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Speaker: It sounds like they're doing something important. (11:13):
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Speaker: I think sometimes I should spend more time going and reading the (11:15):
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Speaker: source material before we read out these news stories. (11:18):
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Speaker: Putative promiscuous symbiont in deep sea corals and crinoids. (11:21):
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Speaker: After our chat last month about some very involved symbionts, it (11:26):
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Speaker: turns out they're not all that committed that monogamous. (11:33):
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Speaker: So a new study has indicated that there is a potential cross (11:37):
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Speaker: host microbial interactions between deep sea corals. (11:40):
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Speaker: I know Desmond film him, but, uh. (11:44):
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Speaker: Salerno. (11:48):
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Speaker: Similar. (11:50):
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Speaker: Very well done on pronunciation. (11:51):
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Speaker: Tom. (11:53):
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Speaker: That was you nailed it. (11:53):
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Speaker: Anyway, corals and their associated crinoid. (11:54):
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Speaker: So basically a couple of types of coral, two different species (11:58):
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Speaker: of coral has an associated crinoid, those basket stars that (12:01):
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Speaker: lives on them. (12:05):
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Speaker: So anyone watching the ROV dives will see quite often. (12:05):
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Speaker: Lovely branchy coral, weird tangly up starfish living on it. (12:09):
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Speaker: So it's those two. (12:13):
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Speaker: This was a study in Campos Basin in Brazil. (12:14):
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Speaker: And the crinoids, the feather (12:18):
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Speaker: stars, the basket stars are (12:19):
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Speaker: frequently found in association (12:21):
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Speaker: with these corals, and both (12:23):
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Speaker: corals and crinoids host (12:24):
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Speaker: symbiotic microorganisms, like (12:26):
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Speaker: most things do, as we learned (12:28):
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Speaker: last month. (12:29):
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Speaker: Yet the physiological and (12:30):
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Speaker: microbial interactions between (12:32):
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Speaker: these organisms and the (12:33):
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Speaker: functional roles of the (12:34):
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Speaker: symbionts, particularly in deep (12:35):
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Speaker: sea environments, are largely (12:37):
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Speaker: unexplored. (12:38):
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Speaker: That's why I had to go and find some shallow squid last month. (12:39):
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Speaker: Using multiple approaches, (12:42):
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Speaker: researchers have found that the (12:43):
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Speaker: corals and crinoids both host (12:45):
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Speaker: the same symbiotic (12:47):
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Speaker: microorganisms, and metagenomic (12:48):
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Speaker: analysis revealed one of these (12:50):
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Speaker: symbionts contains a genetic (12:51):
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Speaker: pathway capable of reducing (12:54):
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Speaker: nitrate to ammonia, which could (12:56):
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Speaker: provide a substrate for ammonia (12:57):
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Speaker: oxidizing archaea, archaea, (12:59):
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Speaker: archaea. (13:02):
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Speaker: Again, it's Ikea month. (13:03):
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Speaker: The study suggests that nitrogen (13:05):
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Speaker: cycling plays a key role in (13:07):
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Speaker: structuring microbial symbiosis (13:09):
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Speaker: in deep sea coral, crinoid and (13:11):
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Speaker: metabolic interactions like NRE (13:13):
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Speaker: driven ammonia provisioning, (13:15):
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Speaker: which could underpin resilience (13:18):
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Speaker: in nutrient limited (13:20):
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Speaker: environments. (13:21):
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Speaker: So it seems that these corals, with their associated echinoderm (13:22):
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Speaker: buddies that we always see grabbing onto them, have very (13:27):
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Speaker: similar microbiomes, and that these microbiomes include (13:30):
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Speaker: pathways that might benefit them by reducing Sing nitrate to (13:34):
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Speaker: ammonia and things like that. (13:38):
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Speaker: Things that they can get nitrogenous goodies from. (13:39):
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Speaker: In nutrient poor environments. (13:43):
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Speaker: Well. (13:44):
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Speaker: Fair enough. (13:44):
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Speaker: Then in another news item, fresh water under my deep sea bed. (13:45):
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Speaker: Rather than trying to figure this out myself, I will throw to (13:49):
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Speaker: the scientists themselves. (13:53):
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Speaker: Did you know that there is fresh water beneath the ocean? (13:54):
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Speaker: My name is Rebecca Robinson, and I'm an oceanographer from the (13:57):
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Speaker: University of Rhode Island. (14:00):
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Speaker: I was recently lucky enough to (14:01):
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Speaker: participate in a multinational (14:03):
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Speaker: expedition to study a large (14:05):
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Speaker: deposit of freshened groundwater (14:07):
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Speaker: beneath the ocean offshore New (14:10):
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Speaker: England. (14:11):
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Speaker: The expedition included scientists, technicians, (14:12):
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Speaker: drilling and ships crews all united in an effort to retrieve (14:15):
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Speaker: fresh and groundwater. (14:19):
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Speaker: The seventy four day expedition (14:20):
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Speaker: was sponsored by the US National (14:21):
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Speaker: Science Foundation in (14:23):
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Speaker: collaboration with the (14:24):
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Speaker: International Ocean Drilling (14:26):
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Speaker: Program. (14:27):
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Speaker: Iodp cubed, a European and Japanese partnership focused on (14:28):
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Speaker: scientific ocean drilling. (14:32):
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Speaker: We took cores and sampled waters (14:33):
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Speaker: from three sites offshore (14:35):
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Speaker: Nantucket. (14:37):
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Speaker: We caught over eight hundred (14:38):
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Speaker: meters of sediment and sampled (14:39):
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Speaker: over ten thousand liters of (14:41):
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Speaker: water. (14:42):
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Speaker: Typically, the water that sits between the grains of sediment (14:43):
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Speaker: that make up the seafloor look a lot like sea water, with a (14:46):
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Speaker: salinity close to seawater, which averages thirty five. (14:49):
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Speaker: But we found salinities of eight (14:53):
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Speaker: or less, almost fresh enough to (14:55):
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Speaker: drink. (14:57):
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Speaker: The samples will be used to (14:58):
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Speaker: measure the water's chemical (15:00):
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Speaker: composition. (15:01):
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Speaker: Examine what types of (15:02):
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Speaker: microorganisms live in this (15:03):
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Speaker: brackish water, and to evaluate (15:04):
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Speaker: how it got there and how old it (15:07):
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Speaker: is. (15:08):
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Speaker: Humanity is thirsty for fresh (15:09):
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Speaker: water, and reserves like the one (15:11):
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Speaker: we sampled are found worldwide, (15:12):
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Speaker: making this study an important (15:15):
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Speaker: early step towards understanding (15:16):
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Speaker: whether this water is (15:18):
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Speaker: potentially useful for human (15:19):
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Speaker: activities. (15:21):
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Speaker: To learn more, go to e-course. (15:22):
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Speaker: Five oh one. (15:27):
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Speaker: So how are you going to go from (15:29):
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Speaker: that to what the subject of this (15:31):
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Speaker: podcast is we've been spoilt (15:34):
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Speaker: this month. (15:36):
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Speaker: Basically last month it was the (15:36):
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Speaker: CIO Symposium or Kayak (15:39):
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Speaker: Symposium. (15:42):
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Speaker: So it's the Cephalopod International Advisory Council, (15:42):
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Speaker: also known as Kayak Symposium. (15:46):
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Speaker: And this year it was in Japan. (15:47):
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Speaker: And all of the cool kids, including Kat Bolstad and the (15:49):
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Speaker: Squid Squad, attended. (15:54):
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Speaker: And Kat was very kind and was a (15:55):
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Speaker: roving reporter for us and (15:58):
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Speaker: accosted some of the most (15:59):
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Speaker: interesting, tentacled, slippery (16:01):
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Speaker: suction cuppy people she could (16:04):
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Speaker: find and talk to them about (16:05):
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Speaker: their work, including some (16:07):
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Speaker: celebs. (16:09):
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Speaker: Actually, I'm quite excited. (16:09):
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Speaker: Thanks for coming on. (16:23):
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Speaker: Associate Professor Kat. (16:24):
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Speaker: Wait, wait, there's a there's a track changes in this document. (16:25):
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Speaker: Can the associates the associates been crossed out? (16:29):
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Speaker: What's that about? (16:32):
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Speaker: Yeah, the associate's been crossed out. (16:33):
undefined

Speaker: Well, apparently I'm allowed to (16:35):
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Speaker: profess now, and I'm gonna flex (16:37):
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Speaker: my new professing muscles by (16:40):
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Speaker: hijacking your podcast once (16:42):
undefined

Speaker: again for yet another cephalopod (16:44):
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Speaker: special. (16:46):
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Speaker: My real goal for this is just to do it so many times that you (16:47):
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Speaker: stop saying cephalopod. (16:50):
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Speaker: Oh, sorry. (16:51):
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Speaker: I actually flip a lot. (16:52):
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Speaker: Is it Seth? (16:54):
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Speaker: I know, but in Latin, isn't it a k sound? (16:54):
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Speaker: Well, who would. (16:57):
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Speaker: Who would know who's alive? (16:58):
undefined

Speaker: No one was alive. (16:59):
undefined

Speaker: Latin. (17:00):
undefined

Speaker: You went along to the conference. (17:03):
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Speaker: All the cool kids were there in tentacles. (17:05):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: So this is the triennial or every three years, cephalopod (17:08):
undefined

Speaker: International Advisory Council symposium or Kayak symposium. (17:12):
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Speaker: This year it was in Okinawa, Japan, at the Okinawa Institute (17:16):
undefined

Speaker: of Science and Technology. (17:19):
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Speaker: Uh, we had about two hundred and (17:21):
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Speaker: fifty delegates, which I think (17:23):
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Speaker: is the largest one we've ever (17:25):
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Speaker: had. (17:26):
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Speaker: The previous one was a hybrid (17:27):
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Speaker: online and Portugal during (17:29):
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Speaker: Covid. (17:31):
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Speaker: And it was. (17:32):
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Speaker: That was the first time we'd ever had it. (17:32):
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Speaker: Hybrid was really great to be able to participate from New (17:34):
undefined

Speaker: Zealand because we were in lockdown, but it really wasn't (17:36):
undefined

Speaker: the same as being there and catching up with everybody. (17:39):
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Speaker: Yeah, over two hundred two or squid ologists as we sometimes (17:42):
undefined

Speaker: have to say. (17:47):
undefined

Speaker: Otherwise, people think we're dentists and quite a lot of (17:47):
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Speaker: extra talent thrown in there. (17:51):
undefined

Speaker: So scientists of all career stages. (17:53):
undefined

Speaker: But some of those are also (17:55):
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Speaker: excellent science communicators (17:56):
undefined

Speaker: authors. (17:58):
undefined

Speaker: So we had Dana staff selling some of her new cephalopod (17:58):
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Speaker: books, written a number of excellent cephalopod books. (18:01):
undefined

Speaker: We had artists and photographers and philosophers share their (18:04):
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Speaker: really beautiful footage of these animals alive in (18:08):
undefined

Speaker: Blackwater and some some deep sea footage as well. (18:11):
undefined

Speaker: And it was a really great meeting. (18:14):
undefined

Speaker: We covered all sorts of interesting topics, and some of (18:16):
undefined

Speaker: them were deep sea, and so I shoulder tapped a few people to (18:19):
undefined

Speaker: either have a chat with me or to record some little bits about (18:23):
undefined

Speaker: their research themselves, which I thought I'd share. (18:26):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you so much. (18:28):
undefined

Speaker: This episode I have a feeling is going to run long. (18:30):
undefined

Speaker: We might wrangle it a little more for the pressurized (18:33):
undefined

Speaker: version, but I think these are such cool people to hear from. (18:35):
undefined

Speaker: This is such like bullet point, (18:39):
undefined

Speaker: rapid fire of lots of different (18:40):
undefined

Speaker: topics. (18:42):
undefined

Speaker: I'm just going to let it run long. (18:43):
undefined

Speaker: So anyone listening in just just settle in. (18:44):
undefined

Speaker: You've probably seen the counter on your podcast app so you know (18:47):
undefined

Speaker: what you're in for. (18:50):
undefined

Speaker: But I think this is all gold. (18:51):
undefined

Speaker: So I'm gonna just I'm just going to let it breathe. (18:52):
undefined

Speaker: I'm not going to part to it or anything. (18:54):
undefined

Speaker: And if you want to get a punchier version, we'll try for (18:56):
undefined

Speaker: it in the pressurized version. (18:59):
undefined

Speaker: But to be honest, this is all gold and I'm just going to let (19:00):
undefined

Speaker: it run long. (19:04):
undefined

Speaker: But when you were mentioning (19:05):
undefined

Speaker: about the last one being a (19:06):
undefined

Speaker: virtual conference and how much (19:08):
undefined

Speaker: better it is to be in the room, (19:09):
undefined

Speaker: you got lots of fun stuff in, (19:11):
undefined

Speaker: like you were diving and going (19:12):
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Speaker: bug hunting with some really (19:14):
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Speaker: cool people. (19:15):
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Speaker: Like that's that's why this social and the network of a (19:16):
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Speaker: conference is so nice. (19:18):
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Speaker: There's the stuff you learn from people's talks. (19:19):
undefined

Speaker: There's the stuff you hear people are doing, and then you (19:21):
undefined

Speaker: have chats, and maybe you start a new project with somebody, or (19:23):
undefined

Speaker: you talk to someone who's interested in coming and working (19:26):
undefined

Speaker: in your lab for a bit, but then also you do things like you go (19:29):
undefined

Speaker: off and do social events. (19:32):
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Speaker: Um, I'd been in Japan for a (19:33):
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Speaker: couple of weeks already, and I (19:35):
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Speaker: will say Japan was excellent bug (19:36):
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Speaker: hunting on my own, but turned (19:38):
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Speaker: out that there was a fair group (19:41):
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Speaker: of us who were really interested (19:42):
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Speaker: in the bugs of the area we were (19:43):
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Speaker: on. (19:46):
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Speaker: Okinawa was quite tropical, so there were some very good, very (19:46):
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Speaker: large bugs around Meg Midland, who will have a chat to watch a (19:49):
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Speaker: particular spider fan and hadn't seen any spiders in Japan yet. (19:52):
undefined

Speaker: So I made a point of relocating a large one out of the women's (19:56):
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Speaker: bathroom in my drink bottle to hand to her, so that she got to (19:59):
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Speaker: see at least one large spider. (20:02):
undefined

Speaker: That's friendship. (20:04):
undefined

Speaker: I brought you a spider. (20:05):
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Speaker: I brought you a spider in my drink bottle I have. (20:07):
undefined

Speaker: I will share the photo. (20:09):
undefined

Speaker: There's. (20:10):
undefined

Speaker: I have a photo of her with it on (20:10):
undefined

Speaker: her hand, and she looks so (20:11):
undefined

Speaker: excited. (20:13):
undefined

Speaker: Uh, and we did go diving. (20:14):
undefined

Speaker: There were some live cephalopod encounters, so I got to see my (20:15):
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Speaker: first wild cuttlefish ever. (20:18):
undefined

Speaker: And I got to shake hands with a new species of octopus that I (20:21):
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Speaker: hadn't encountered before. (20:24):
undefined

Speaker: It was a little abdopus. (20:25):
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Speaker: adipose. (20:26):
undefined

Speaker: So other people also saw bobtail (20:26):
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Speaker: squids and some other cuttlefish (20:28):
undefined

Speaker: as well. (20:30):
undefined

Speaker: So there was a an excellent (20:30):
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Speaker: array of cephalopod exposure at (20:32):
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Speaker: this meeting. (20:34):
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Speaker: Okay, let's dive in. (20:35):
undefined

Speaker: Who are we going to talk to (20:36):
undefined

Speaker: first leading up to the (20:37):
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Speaker: conference? (20:39):
undefined

Speaker: There's always a couple of days of workshops. (20:39):
undefined

Speaker: We had workshops about fisheries (20:42):
undefined

Speaker: and about AI for cephalopod (20:43):
undefined

Speaker: science and how that might move (20:46):
undefined

Speaker: us forward. (20:47):
undefined

Speaker: The one I participated in was (20:48):
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Speaker: about cryptic biodiversity (20:50):
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Speaker: because there are still many, (20:51):
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Speaker: many cephalopod species left to (20:53):
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Speaker: be described. (20:56):
undefined

Speaker: And quite a lot of those are (20:57):
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Speaker: things that historically people (20:59):
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Speaker: have sort of said, oh, (21:01):
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Speaker: worldwide, I think it's one (21:02):
undefined

Speaker: species. (21:03):
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Speaker: And then the more you look, the more it's not so. (21:03):
undefined

Speaker: This workshop was really summarising our current state of (21:06):
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Speaker: knowledge about how much we have left to discover in the (21:09):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopod biodiversity space. (21:11):
undefined

Speaker: And so I had a chat to Fernando Angel Fernandez Alvarez, better (21:13):
undefined

Speaker: known as Fafa, who was organizing this workshop and is (21:18):
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Speaker: one of the other leading deep sea squid biodiversity. (21:21):
undefined

Speaker: People worldwide. (21:25):
undefined

Speaker: Hello, everybody. (21:26):
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Speaker: This is Fernando Angel Fernandez (21:27):
undefined

Speaker: Alvarez from the Spanish (21:29):
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Speaker: Institute of Oceanography in (21:30):
undefined

Speaker: Asturias. (21:31):
undefined

Speaker: First of all, I want to thank you for inviting us here. (21:33):
undefined

Speaker: I want to talk about a meeting (21:37):
undefined

Speaker: held in the last cephalopod (21:39):
undefined

Speaker: International Advisory Council (21:40):
undefined

Speaker: conference. (21:42):
undefined

Speaker: We talk about biodiversity when (21:42):
undefined

Speaker: we are unable to identify clear (21:45):
undefined

Speaker: differences among different (21:46):
undefined

Speaker: biological species. (21:48):
undefined

Speaker: This can be because actually, (21:50):
undefined

Speaker: there are no differences at all (21:51):
undefined

Speaker: among them. (21:53):
undefined

Speaker: But in my experience, this is not the most common scenario. (21:53):
undefined

Speaker: Many differences have been overlooked due to over (21:56):
undefined

Speaker: conservative taxonomic practices, or because the kind (22:00):
undefined

Speaker: of data that are considered do not cover the actual difference (22:03):
undefined

Speaker: among those species. (22:07):
undefined

Speaker: For example, during the workshop, it was mentioned many (22:08):
undefined

Speaker: times that for some species it can be quickly identified as (22:11):
undefined

Speaker: different if you look at their live specimens or just fresh (22:15):
undefined

Speaker: collected ones, but almost impossible after fixation. (22:18):
undefined

Speaker: But at least I can talk about the biodiversity of oceanic (22:21):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopods, which is a topic I have been working for quite a (22:25):
undefined

Speaker: few years already. (22:27):
undefined

Speaker: One of the things that keeps (22:29):
undefined

Speaker: amazing me is how little we know (22:30):
undefined

Speaker: about the biodiversity of (22:32):
undefined

Speaker: animals as charismatic and (22:33):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopods. (22:35):
undefined

Speaker: If you take any oceanic squid (22:36):
undefined

Speaker: family, for instance, the most (22:38):
undefined

Speaker: typical thing is that there is a (22:40):
undefined

Speaker: single species described (22:41):
undefined

Speaker: somewhere in between the last (22:43):
undefined

Speaker: decades of the nineteenth (22:44):
undefined

Speaker: century and the first decades of (22:46):
undefined

Speaker: the twentieth century, which has (22:48):
undefined

Speaker: been seated all around the (22:50):
undefined

Speaker: world. (22:52):
undefined

Speaker: When you test them with (22:52):
undefined

Speaker: molecular methods, most of them (22:53):
undefined

Speaker: usually are more than a single (22:56):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Sometimes there are some suspicions, such different (22:58):
undefined

Speaker: morphology on that character. (23:01):
undefined

Speaker: No one has been giving it importance. (23:03):
undefined

Speaker: Let's say the spermatophore, for instance. (23:05):
undefined

Speaker: Or maybe biochemistry information. (23:07):
undefined

Speaker: All this information together might challenge or consensus of (23:10):
undefined

Speaker: whether it is a single species or more than one. (23:14):
undefined

Speaker: This is the case of the neon flying squid, for instance. (23:16):
undefined

Speaker: When we look at the molecular (23:19):
undefined

Speaker: information, We discover that (23:20):
undefined

Speaker: there are four species within (23:22):
undefined

Speaker: the genus. (23:24):
undefined

Speaker: The genus from. (23:25):
undefined

Speaker: Astrophys. (23:25):
undefined

Speaker: Funny thing I got so obsessed about this squid that I named my (23:26):
undefined

Speaker: kitty cat on my face. (23:30):
undefined

Speaker: Anyway, on my species, the squid ones. (23:31):
undefined

Speaker: The real ones are an allopatric (23:35):
undefined

Speaker: species complex, which means (23:37):
undefined

Speaker: that the species distributions (23:38):
undefined

Speaker: do not overlap them, making (23:40):
undefined

Speaker: identification based on (23:42):
undefined

Speaker: geography easy. (23:44):
undefined

Speaker: So that was lucky. (23:45):
undefined

Speaker: We believe that the major (23:46):
undefined

Speaker: sonographic currents maintain (23:48):
undefined

Speaker: populations isolated. (23:50):
undefined

Speaker: So we decided to follow up on (23:51):
undefined

Speaker: this trail, and we test the (23:53):
undefined

Speaker: effect of sonographic variables (23:55):
undefined

Speaker: on biodiversity using sixteen (23:56):
undefined

Speaker: Squid morphospecies all across (23:58):
undefined

Speaker: the Atlantic Ocean and the (24:00):
undefined

Speaker: Mediterranean Sea, using (24:02):
undefined

Speaker: material collected in several (24:03):
undefined

Speaker: oceanographic cruises. (24:05):
undefined

Speaker: Well, reality not always align (24:06):
undefined

Speaker: with whatever you are expected (24:08):
undefined

Speaker: to find, and most sonographic (24:10):
undefined

Speaker: features had little or no effect (24:13):
undefined

Speaker: over this species assemblage we (24:15):
undefined

Speaker: found. (24:16):
undefined

Speaker: However, we did find a strong signal of biodiversity in four (24:17):
undefined

Speaker: of the study species. (24:21):
undefined

Speaker: One of them, Helicocranchia, was in what we call the grey zone. (24:22):
undefined

Speaker: This happens when it is difficult to decide if the (24:27):
undefined

Speaker: observed pattern is the result of high population structure. (24:30):
undefined

Speaker: That means conspecifics or these populations are in the initial (24:33):
undefined

Speaker: stages of speciation event. (24:37):
undefined

Speaker: However, there are these few (24:41):
undefined

Speaker: times when a cosmopolitan (24:43):
undefined

Speaker: species actually is a (24:45):
undefined

Speaker: cosmopolitan species, and there (24:47):
undefined

Speaker: are two cases I am going to (24:48):
undefined

Speaker: comment. (24:50):
undefined

Speaker: Also, they are very charismatic species, so maybe you already (24:50):
undefined

Speaker: know about them. (24:53):
undefined

Speaker: One of them is that giant squid. (24:54):
undefined

Speaker: Up to twenty names has been proposed for that species. (24:56):
undefined

Speaker: However, in twenty thirteen, an (24:59):
undefined

Speaker: international team led by Ingrid (25:02):
undefined

Speaker: Winkelmann discovered that there (25:03):
undefined

Speaker: are a single species architect (25:05):
undefined

Speaker: stocks, and in a recent and (25:07):
undefined

Speaker: somehow polemic article, the (25:10):
undefined

Speaker: vampire Vampyroteuthis (25:12):
undefined

Speaker: infernalis was split in two (25:14):
undefined

Speaker: different species. (25:16):
undefined

Speaker: For one of them, a new name has (25:17):
undefined

Speaker: been proposed that is (25:19):
undefined

Speaker: Vampyroteuthis Infernalis. (25:20):
undefined

Speaker: These two species seem to have a cosmopolitan distribution range. (25:22):
undefined

Speaker: Long story short, is there any (25:25):
undefined

Speaker: way to tell apart cosmopolitan (25:27):
undefined

Speaker: species from cryptic species (25:29):
undefined

Speaker: complexes? (25:31):
undefined

Speaker: Well, you never know until you sequence. (25:32):
undefined

Speaker: So please fit us with cephalopod DNA sequences. (25:34):
undefined

Speaker: And now I would like to introduce someone to you. (25:38):
undefined

Speaker: Some did a short internship in the lab of Villanueva in the (25:40):
undefined

Speaker: Marine Science Institute of Barcelona, when I was a (25:44):
undefined

Speaker: postdoctoral researcher on ancistrocerus diversity at the (25:47):
undefined

Speaker: global scale, and she found something so amazing. (25:51):
undefined

Speaker: Hi everybody. (25:55):
undefined

Speaker: I am Sam Arnold. (25:56):
undefined

Speaker: I'm a marine biologist, and I (25:57):
undefined

Speaker: focus mainly on invertebrates (25:58):
undefined

Speaker: and taxonomy. (26:00):
undefined

Speaker: And I will tell you a little bit (26:01):
undefined

Speaker: about the work I did together (26:03):
undefined

Speaker: with Fernando. (26:04):
undefined

Speaker: Our goal was to confirm if there (26:05):
undefined

Speaker: were any morphological (26:07):
undefined

Speaker: differences in the suspected (26:08):
undefined

Speaker: cryptic species complex of (26:10):
undefined

Speaker: ancestors. (26:11):
undefined

Speaker: There was molecular data pointing to a possible complex. (26:13):
undefined

Speaker: Also, there have been a lot of (26:16):
undefined

Speaker: confusion about this name in (26:18):
undefined

Speaker: general. (26:19):
undefined

Speaker: This was mainly due to scientists all around the world (26:20):
undefined

Speaker: describing similar looking squid in their own way, all focusing (26:22):
undefined

Speaker: on different characters. (26:26):
undefined

Speaker: What all of these specimen across the world had in common (26:28):
undefined

Speaker: was that they had hooks in their arm instead of suckers. (26:31):
undefined

Speaker: They had a purplish mantle and (26:35):
undefined

Speaker: light organs in the skin, (26:37):
undefined

Speaker: forming a distinct pattern to (26:39):
undefined

Speaker: see if the specimen from around (26:41):
undefined

Speaker: the world were different (26:43):
undefined

Speaker: morphologically. (26:44):
undefined

Speaker: We wanted to put them all besides each other. (26:46):
undefined

Speaker: To this end, we inspected specimen from several European (26:48):
undefined

Speaker: museums and collections using specimen collected in the (26:52):
undefined

Speaker: Atlantic, the Indian Ocean, and even specimen from the Pacific. (26:56):
undefined

Speaker: We also reviewed the sequences (27:00):
undefined

Speaker: stored in two databases, NCBI (27:01):
undefined

Speaker: and Bold. (27:04):
undefined

Speaker: Based on this data, we found (27:05):
undefined

Speaker: that there are at least six (27:07):
undefined

Speaker: species within the genus, rather (27:08):
undefined

Speaker: than just one single (27:11):
undefined

Speaker: cosmopolitan species ISS, we (27:12):
undefined

Speaker: were able to resurrect the name (27:15):
undefined

Speaker: on Cisco Alessandrini for one of (27:16):
undefined

Speaker: them, which is present in the (27:18):
undefined

Speaker: North Atlantic and the (27:20):
undefined

Speaker: Mediterranean Sea. (27:22):
undefined

Speaker: And we also characterized the (27:23):
undefined

Speaker: distribution of a few of the (27:24):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: It is quite unique about this (27:27):
undefined

Speaker: species complex that we're (27:28):
undefined

Speaker: looking at was the arm and (27:30):
undefined

Speaker: tentacle hooks. (27:32):
undefined

Speaker: This was historically used as (27:33):
undefined

Speaker: one of the main classifying (27:35):
undefined

Speaker: features. (27:36):
undefined

Speaker: There is still plenty of (27:37):
undefined

Speaker: research to do with species, but (27:38):
undefined

Speaker: at least we found some (27:42):
undefined

Speaker: morphological characters which (27:43):
undefined

Speaker: are promising to solve this (27:44):
undefined

Speaker: complex. (27:46):
undefined

Speaker: Additionally, within this (27:47):
undefined

Speaker: inspected material, we found a (27:48):
undefined

Speaker: specimen which was really (27:50):
undefined

Speaker: interesting. (27:52):
undefined

Speaker: It had the characteristic arm hooks of this genus, but the (27:53):
undefined

Speaker: hooks looked different as they have accessory cusps next to the (27:57):
undefined

Speaker: main hook, which kind of resembles a trident. (28:01):
undefined

Speaker: Interestingly, it also lacked many of the other characters we (28:04):
undefined

Speaker: associate with the genus. (28:09):
undefined

Speaker: Enos. (28:12):
undefined

Speaker: It lacked any pigment or light organs. (28:13):
undefined

Speaker: Even more importantly, the heart (28:16):
undefined

Speaker: structures, which are really (28:17):
undefined

Speaker: less morphologically flexible, (28:19):
undefined

Speaker: were very distinct and (28:21):
undefined

Speaker: different. (28:23):
undefined

Speaker: After confirming our observations with descriptions (28:23):
undefined

Speaker: of known species, we concluded that this specimen did not only (28:26):
undefined

Speaker: represent a new species, but also a new genus and a new (28:31):
undefined

Speaker: family, which made this the first new squid family described (28:34):
undefined

Speaker: since the nineties. (28:38):
undefined

Speaker: This specimen was found by the cephalopod researcher Malcolm (28:39):
undefined

Speaker: Clark in the stomach of a sperm whale between nineteen fifty (28:43):
undefined

Speaker: five and nineteen fifty six. (28:47):
undefined

Speaker: As this specimen lacked skin (28:48):
undefined

Speaker: pigment and was found in the (28:50):
undefined

Speaker: sperm whale gut, we decided to (28:52):
undefined

Speaker: name them after Herman (28:53):
undefined

Speaker: Melville's character Moby Dick, (28:55):
undefined

Speaker: and as their arm hooks looked (28:57):
undefined

Speaker: like tridents. (28:58):
undefined

Speaker: Its specific epithet was dedicated to Poseidon, and (28:59):
undefined

Speaker: that's how the name Moby Dick Poseidon was born. (29:03):
undefined

Speaker: Without the continued efforts of (29:06):
undefined

Speaker: natural history museums, this (29:07):
undefined

Speaker: discovery couldn't have been (29:09):
undefined

Speaker: made especially considering many (29:11):
undefined

Speaker: deep sea animals have been (29:13):
undefined

Speaker: previously collected with (29:15):
undefined

Speaker: outdated, unethical practices (29:16):
undefined

Speaker: such as whaling, which means (29:18):
undefined

Speaker: that the collections we have now (29:20):
undefined

Speaker: will be the biggest source of (29:22):
undefined

Speaker: deep sea animal taxonomical (29:23):
undefined

Speaker: information we will have for the (29:25):
undefined

Speaker: foreseeable future. (29:27):
undefined

Speaker: This is one of the many reasons (29:28):
undefined

Speaker: it's so important to protect (29:30):
undefined

Speaker: collections. (29:32):
undefined

Speaker: So we would like to end on the note that historical collections (29:33):
undefined

Speaker: and natural collections are so important to protect and (29:36):
undefined

Speaker: maintain, because these historical specimen contain so (29:40):
undefined

Speaker: much information, and we can still learn so much from them. (29:43):
undefined

Speaker: Participants in this workshop (29:47):
undefined

Speaker: included people who have or are (29:49):
undefined

Speaker: developing expertise within (29:51):
undefined

Speaker: specific cephalopod groups and (29:53):
undefined

Speaker: their taxonomy and (29:55):
undefined

Speaker: classification. (29:56):
undefined

Speaker: So we've got a couple of these (29:57):
undefined

Speaker: projects going in our lab at the (29:59):
undefined

Speaker: moment. (30:00):
undefined

Speaker: We've got two PhD students (30:01):
undefined

Speaker: working on specific deep sea (30:03):
undefined

Speaker: squid groups. (30:05):
undefined

Speaker: I'd like to introduce PhD (30:06):
undefined

Speaker: candidate Austin Hogenkamp from (30:07):
undefined

Speaker: the AUT ORT lab for Cephalopod (30:09):
undefined

Speaker: Ecology and Systematics or the (30:11):
undefined

Speaker: Squid Squad. (30:13):
undefined

Speaker: Hi everyone! (30:14):
undefined

Speaker: My name is Austin Hogenkamp and (30:14):
undefined

Speaker: I am a PhD student here at the (30:16):
undefined

Speaker: Auckland University of (30:18):
undefined

Speaker: Technology working under Doctor (30:19):
undefined

Speaker: Kat Bolstad. (30:21):
undefined

Speaker: It is a pleasure to introduce (30:22):
undefined

Speaker: you to the family of squids that (30:23):
undefined

Speaker: I work with, known as the (30:25):
undefined

Speaker: bracket. (30:26):
undefined

Speaker: The bracket today consists of two genera, so try saying that (30:27):
undefined

Speaker: five times fast and the bracket. (30:31):
undefined

Speaker: There are about seven species (30:34):
undefined

Speaker: between the two genera, and it (30:35):
undefined

Speaker: was first founded in eighteen (30:37):
undefined

Speaker: eighty one. (30:38):
undefined

Speaker: Between eighteen eighty one and (30:39):
undefined

Speaker: twenty twenty five, not a lot of (30:41):
undefined

Speaker: work has truly been done on this (30:43):
undefined

Speaker: family, so that's where I come (30:44):
undefined

Speaker: in. (30:46):
undefined

Speaker: I am currently doing a global (30:46):
undefined

Speaker: revision of the family using (30:48):
undefined

Speaker: integrative taxonomy. (30:49):
undefined

Speaker: So I am first looking at (30:51):
undefined

Speaker: morphology from museum (30:52):
undefined

Speaker: collection specimens or (30:54):
undefined

Speaker: specimens that are just (30:56):
undefined

Speaker: opportunistically collected if (30:57):
undefined

Speaker: possible. (30:59):
undefined

Speaker: And then I'm comparing the morphology between them. (30:59):
undefined

Speaker: And then I get to take the genetics, I get to do the cool (31:02):
undefined

Speaker: sciencey side and actually look at what genetic differences (31:05):
undefined

Speaker: separate those species. (31:09):
undefined

Speaker: We also have PhD candidate Ben Shirey, who is working on the (31:11):
undefined

Speaker: jeweled squid family, and he's doing both taxonomic work in (31:16):
undefined

Speaker: that group and some studies on their ecology worldwide. (31:19):
undefined

Speaker: Hi, my name is Benjamin Shirey and I'm a PhD candidate at the (31:23):
undefined

Speaker: Auckland University of Technology in the Aleses lab (31:26):
undefined

Speaker: with Kat and Heather. (31:29):
undefined

Speaker: I'm originally from the United (31:30):
undefined

Speaker: States, and I've always been (31:31):
undefined

Speaker: passionate about the deep sea (31:32):
undefined

Speaker: and marine invertebrates in (31:33):
undefined

Speaker: particular. (31:35):
undefined

Speaker: My thesis is looking at the (31:35):
undefined

Speaker: systematics and ecology of the (31:37):
undefined

Speaker: deep sea squid family, (31:38):
undefined

Speaker: Histioteuthis. (31:39):
undefined

Speaker: You may know them a little better as the strawberry jeweled (31:40):
undefined

Speaker: or even cock eyed squid. (31:43):
undefined

Speaker: In a nutshell, what I'm looking at is essentially who's in this (31:44):
undefined

Speaker: family and how they fit into the global oceanic food web. (31:47):
undefined

Speaker: With regards to systematics, I'm looking at several species (31:50):
undefined

Speaker: complexes where we know there is cryptic biodiversity, that being (31:53):
undefined

Speaker: similar looking animals that have been previously treated as (31:56):
undefined

Speaker: a single species. (31:59):
undefined

Speaker: But genetic differences have now been recognized. (32:00):
undefined

Speaker: To sort this out, I'm using integrative taxonomy, which (32:02):
undefined

Speaker: incorporates genetic and morphological information to (32:05):
undefined

Speaker: help separate these species. (32:07):
undefined

Speaker: I'm describing new species and (32:09):
undefined

Speaker: resurrecting old names where (32:10):
undefined

Speaker: applicable. (32:12):
undefined

Speaker: Presently, I've found some very cool differences in mantle (32:13):
undefined

Speaker: photophore patterns that seem to be extremely helpful in (32:15):
undefined

Speaker: differentiating between them. (32:17):
undefined

Speaker: As for the ecology, I'm trying to get a good grasp on the (32:19):
undefined

Speaker: predators, prey, and overall trophic position of the family (32:21):
undefined

Speaker: globally as of now. (32:24):
undefined

Speaker: I've compiled an updated list of predators from various sources, (32:25):
undefined

Speaker: primarily stomachs, including important megafauna like toothed (32:27):
undefined

Speaker: whales, various deep sea fish and sharks, and more recently, (32:31):
undefined

Speaker: we found even other squid. (32:34):
undefined

Speaker: But we still don't know what they themselves eat. (32:36):
undefined

Speaker: So I will be using DNA (32:38):
undefined

Speaker: metabarcoding on stomachs to (32:40):
undefined

Speaker: identify their prey, as well as (32:41):
undefined

Speaker: doing stable isotope analysis on (32:43):
undefined

Speaker: beaks to figure out where they (32:44):
undefined

Speaker: lie. (32:45):
undefined

Speaker: Trophically, thank you so much (32:46):
undefined

Speaker: and feel free to reach out to (32:47):
undefined

Speaker: me. (32:48):
undefined

Speaker: If you're interested in (32:48):
undefined

Speaker: strawberry squid or have any (32:49):
undefined

Speaker: questions. (32:50):
undefined

Speaker: I will take literally any excuse to talk about them. (32:51):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you so much. (32:53):
undefined

Speaker: Uh, there are lots of different ecological topics covered. (32:54):
undefined

Speaker: Uh, cephalopods, of course, are (32:57):
undefined

Speaker: very important in marine (32:58):
undefined

Speaker: ecosystems as both predators and (33:00):
undefined

Speaker: prey. (33:03):
undefined

Speaker: A lot more is known about their (33:04):
undefined

Speaker: role as prey because of humans (33:05):
undefined

Speaker: interest in their predators, (33:08):
undefined

Speaker: such as whales and dolphins and (33:10):
undefined

Speaker: seabirds. (33:11):
undefined

Speaker: Then we tend to know about their diets themselves. (33:12):
undefined

Speaker: So a few people are working on (33:16):
undefined

Speaker: dietary studies for various (33:17):
undefined

Speaker: groups. (33:19):
undefined

Speaker: Their diets are very challenging to study for a number of (33:19):
undefined

Speaker: reasons, part of which is they chew their food really finely (33:23):
undefined

Speaker: because of course, their esophagus passes through the (33:27):
undefined

Speaker: middle of their brain. (33:29):
undefined

Speaker: So it's pretty, pretty high stakes if they don't do that, (33:30):
undefined

Speaker: which leaves the stomach contents as a nice slurry of (33:33):
undefined

Speaker: very tiny pieces. (33:36):
undefined

Speaker: And if we're lucky, we might get some recognizable fish otoliths. (33:37):
undefined

Speaker: We might get some crustacean parts. (33:41):
undefined

Speaker: But, you know, I can't tell you how jealous I am when you open (33:43):
undefined

Speaker: up a fish. (33:47):
undefined

Speaker: And the most beautiful squid specimen I've ever seen falls (33:48):
undefined

Speaker: out of it. (33:52):
undefined

Speaker: And, like, could be a type (33:52):
undefined

Speaker: specimen, like, there's there's (33:53):
undefined

Speaker: no challenge in identifying (33:55):
undefined

Speaker: that. (33:57):
undefined

Speaker: And we get this smoothie of parts which increasingly, you (33:57):
undefined

Speaker: know, we're doing integrative taxonomy on these. (34:03):
undefined

Speaker: So barcoding them for co1 and also morphological IDs. (34:05):
undefined

Speaker: And we find actually that those (34:09):
undefined

Speaker: two methods are very (34:10):
undefined

Speaker: complementary. (34:12):
undefined

Speaker: They pick up different prey items. (34:13):
undefined

Speaker: So with morphology you get the (34:15):
undefined

Speaker: otoliths and some recognizable (34:16):
undefined

Speaker: pieces. (34:18):
undefined

Speaker: And often we don't pick up those fish sequences when we're (34:18):
undefined

Speaker: barcoding, whereas the barcoding does a lot better job of (34:22):
undefined

Speaker: recovering invertebrates and also picks up some fishes that (34:24):
undefined

Speaker: are probably too large for the squid to consume the head. (34:28):
undefined

Speaker: So we don't get the otoliths. (34:32):
undefined

Speaker: So actually, if we did just one of those methods, we get very (34:33):
undefined

Speaker: different pictures of the diet. (34:35):
undefined

Speaker: And then both of those are very (34:37):
undefined

Speaker: short term looks at what the (34:38):
undefined

Speaker: squid happened to have been (34:40):
undefined

Speaker: eating right before it was (34:41):
undefined

Speaker: collected. (34:42):
undefined

Speaker: So we have a number of people (34:43):
undefined

Speaker: who are also adding in the (34:44):
undefined

Speaker: stable isotope component for a (34:46):
undefined

Speaker: longer term picture of what kind (34:48):
undefined

Speaker: of trophic level they're feeding (34:50):
undefined

Speaker: at. (34:51):
undefined

Speaker: One of those people is Christina Fleetwood, who is a master's (34:52):
undefined

Speaker: student at Scripps Institute of Oceanography at the University (34:55):
undefined

Speaker: of California, San Diego. (34:58):
undefined

Speaker: My name is Christina. (34:59):
undefined

Speaker: I'm a second year master's student here at Scripps (35:01):
undefined

Speaker: Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. (35:03):
undefined

Speaker: I studied trophic ecology of (35:07):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopods, and I also work (35:09):
undefined

Speaker: here at the Pelagic Invertebrate (35:11):
undefined

Speaker: Collections. (35:14):
undefined

Speaker: Christina, thanks for having a chat with me. (35:15):
undefined

Speaker: Uh, we've actually been in touch for a few years because, as I (35:17):
undefined

Speaker: recall, we met in front of a cephalopod tank at MBARI when (35:20):
undefined

Speaker: you were working there, and I happened to be visiting one day. (35:23):
undefined

Speaker: Am I remembering that right? (35:26):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: In front of a GPO tank. (35:27):
undefined

Speaker: In fact, uh, GPO is my first love. (35:29):
undefined

Speaker: That's how I got hooked on cephalopods in the first place. (35:31):
undefined

Speaker: A very fortuitous meeting, as it turned out. (35:34):
undefined

Speaker: And now you're working your way (35:37):
undefined

Speaker: up through the ranks of grad (35:38):
undefined

Speaker: school and cephalopod research, (35:40):
undefined

Speaker: and now you're doing a dietary (35:42):
undefined

Speaker: study on pelagic and some deep (35:43):
undefined

Speaker: sea cephalopods. (35:45):
undefined

Speaker: As with a lot of deep sea stuff, we have to get creative with (35:46):
undefined

Speaker: some different methods. (35:48):
undefined

Speaker: Um, yes. (35:50):
undefined

Speaker: So I'm looking at accretionary structures. (35:50):
undefined

Speaker: So their beaks. (35:53):
undefined

Speaker: For instance, um, and I'm since they're really, really small (35:54):
undefined

Speaker: beaks, I'm having to use the whole structure rather than (35:57):
undefined

Speaker: parsing it out over time. (36:00):
undefined

Speaker: And I'm looking at fifteen nitrogen and thirteen carbon. (36:01):
undefined

Speaker: So for those of you maybe less familiar with those isotopes, (36:05):
undefined

Speaker: the nitrogen the heavier the nitrogen isotopes, the higher up (36:08):
undefined

Speaker: they are in the food chain. (36:11):
undefined

Speaker: And the thirteen carbon kind of tells us where that baseline of (36:13):
undefined

Speaker: productivity is coming from, whether that's more benthic or (36:16):
undefined

Speaker: pelagic, for instance. (36:19):
undefined

Speaker: It's so cool, right? (36:21):
undefined

Speaker: By studying these two isotopes, you can find out kind of what (36:21):
undefined

Speaker: trophic level they're at. (36:24):
undefined

Speaker: Although there are some complications, right? (36:25):
undefined

Speaker: When we get animals that are (36:27):
undefined

Speaker: scavenging, they can have an (36:28):
undefined

Speaker: artificially high nitrogen (36:29):
undefined

Speaker: signature. (36:30):
undefined

Speaker: And then the carbon one gives you a bit of a read on location. (36:31):
undefined

Speaker: So you get this really nice paired data about how high up (36:35):
undefined

Speaker: the food web they're eating and where they've been. (36:39):
undefined

Speaker: And for larger beaks, you can do (36:41):
undefined

Speaker: this more across the lifespan as (36:43):
undefined

Speaker: well. (36:44):
undefined

Speaker: So you can get a read of sort of (36:44):
undefined

Speaker: a history of what the animal's (36:46):
undefined

Speaker: been doing. (36:47):
undefined

Speaker: And so you're looking at the beaks of really tiny ones. (36:48):
undefined

Speaker: And and beaks are tricky to get out anyway. (36:51):
undefined

Speaker: So I have a lot of respect for (36:53):
undefined

Speaker: you doing this with really tiny (36:54):
undefined

Speaker: animals. (36:56):
undefined

Speaker: Which species are you looking at? (36:56):
undefined

Speaker: What are you finding the most? (36:58):
undefined

Speaker: For the first part of our study, which was conducted across the (36:59):
undefined

Speaker: Santa Lucia Escarpment. (37:02):
undefined

Speaker: We got primarily Chiroteuthis, mostly paralarvae, as well as (37:04):
undefined

Speaker: histioteuthis or strawberry squids and vampire squids, as (37:08):
undefined

Speaker: well as lots of other taxa. (37:11):
undefined

Speaker: But those were more one and two ORFs. (37:13):
undefined

Speaker: Oh, now vampire squid. (37:15):
undefined

Speaker: That's very interesting. (37:16):
undefined

Speaker: I, off the top of my head, feel (37:17):
undefined

Speaker: like I read something that (37:20):
undefined

Speaker: suggested that vampire squid, (37:22):
undefined

Speaker: which are at least partial (37:24):
undefined

Speaker: detritivores later in life, (37:25):
undefined

Speaker: maybe start out as more active (37:27):
undefined

Speaker: carnivores and become (37:29):
undefined

Speaker: detritivores. (37:30):
undefined

Speaker: Is that am I remembering that right? (37:31):
undefined

Speaker: That's what I've heard anecdotally. (37:34):
undefined

Speaker: So I haven't opened up their (37:35):
undefined

Speaker: guts because they are rather (37:36):
undefined

Speaker: small. (37:38):
undefined

Speaker: I will say just having a preliminary look at the data. (37:39):
undefined

Speaker: They are showing up very high in the food chain. (37:41):
undefined

Speaker: Everything dies, so everything (37:44):
undefined

Speaker: will become part of marine snow (37:46):
undefined

Speaker: and that might kind of (37:47):
undefined

Speaker: artificially inflate their (37:48):
undefined

Speaker: trophic position. (37:50):
undefined

Speaker: Now, when you say small ones, (37:51):
undefined

Speaker: have you seen any of the awkward (37:52):
undefined

Speaker: teenage stage vamps that have (37:54):
undefined

Speaker: four fins? (37:56):
undefined

Speaker: No, I don't think so. (37:57):
undefined

Speaker: But I will say that they didn't come up in the best shape. (37:58):
undefined

Speaker: So even if they did have four (38:01):
undefined

Speaker: fins, they might not have had (38:03):
undefined

Speaker: four fins by the time we got to (38:04):
undefined

Speaker: them. (38:06):
undefined

Speaker: Okay, we'll have to post a link to this. (38:06):
undefined

Speaker: There is an absolutely adorable clip of a vampire squid. (38:08):
undefined

Speaker: And for those who don't know, vampire squid babies have a pair (38:11):
undefined

Speaker: of fins that they partly use to move around with. (38:16):
undefined

Speaker: But as they mature, those fins (38:19):
undefined

Speaker: regress and they grow a new pair (38:21):
undefined

Speaker: of fins that has a different (38:24):
undefined

Speaker: gait that it provides to the (38:26):
undefined

Speaker: animal. (38:27):
undefined

Speaker: So they use these two pairs of fins quite differently. (38:28):
undefined

Speaker: And for a very brief, adorable, sort of dorky, awkward teenage (38:30):
undefined

Speaker: phase, they have four of them and they kind of work at odds (38:34):
undefined

Speaker: with each other. (38:37):
undefined

Speaker: And so there's this little video (38:37):
undefined

Speaker: clip of a vamp, a baby vamp in a (38:38):
undefined

Speaker: tank that's got its two pairs of (38:41):
undefined

Speaker: fins going. (38:42):
undefined

Speaker: And it is honestly one of the cutest things I've ever seen. (38:43):
undefined

Speaker: How far through your study are you now? (38:45):
undefined

Speaker: So I kind of have two parts to my research. (38:47):
undefined

Speaker: So like I mentioned, the Santa Lucia Escarpment, I was (38:50):
undefined

Speaker: fortunate enough to go out to sea this past February, March (38:53):
undefined

Speaker: and take some trial samples. (38:56):
undefined

Speaker: And the rest of our crew was (38:59):
undefined

Speaker: taking zooplankton and physical (39:00):
undefined

Speaker: oceanography samples, just (39:01):
undefined

Speaker: trying to characterize this (39:03):
undefined

Speaker: region. (39:04):
undefined

Speaker: That part of my study is a little bit further along. (39:05):
undefined

Speaker: And then I was also fortunate (39:07):
undefined

Speaker: enough to get bycatch from a (39:09):
undefined

Speaker: NOAA survey that just came back (39:11):
undefined

Speaker: a couple months ago, the Coastal (39:13):
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Speaker: Pelagic Survey. (39:15):
undefined

Speaker: So they survey the entire west (39:16):
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Speaker: coast of the US all the way from (39:18):
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Speaker: San Diego to the top of (39:20):
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Speaker: Washington state. (39:21):
undefined

Speaker: So I'm still kind of processing and pulling out the beaks from (39:22):
undefined

Speaker: those animals as well. (39:25):
undefined

Speaker: That's kind of a common theme, right? (39:26):
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Speaker: Cephalopods, especially not the (39:28):
undefined

Speaker: non-commercial ones, are really (39:29):
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Speaker: difficult to target with (39:31):
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Speaker: research gear. (39:33):
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Speaker: So a lot of the samples we get are just incidental bycatch from (39:34):
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Speaker: people who are studying or fishing for other things. (39:39):
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Speaker: And that's one of the reasons we (39:42):
undefined

Speaker: tend to have fairly low sample (39:43):
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Speaker: sizes is that, you know, we just (39:44):
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Speaker: get the odd unlucky one that (39:46):
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Speaker: ends up in the net with (39:47):
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Speaker: everybody else, but it's always (39:48):
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Speaker: really cool then to make use of (39:50):
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Speaker: those. (39:51):
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Speaker: Right? (39:51):
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Speaker: So it's not a complete waste (39:51):
undefined

Speaker: that that animal happens to get (39:53):
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Speaker: caught. (39:55):
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Speaker: We at least can can use that to learn something about it. (39:56):
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Speaker: Any initial findings from what you've been doing that you'd (39:58):
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Speaker: like to tell us about? (40:00):
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Speaker: Um, well, so far no big surprises. (40:02):
undefined

Speaker: I'm still in the very (40:04):
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Speaker: preliminary phase of looking (40:05):
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Speaker: through data. (40:06):
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Speaker: Um, but we did see kind of a big grouping of all of the (40:07):
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Speaker: cephalopods across the escarpment, with the exception (40:11):
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Speaker: of a couple muscular guys and then the vampire squids. (40:14):
undefined

Speaker: Of course, everyone else is pretty much the same trophic (40:17):
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Speaker: position or within one or two trophic positions of each other. (40:20):
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Speaker: So we're going to explore whether or not different species (40:23):
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Speaker: are migrators where they exist in the water column. (40:27):
undefined

Speaker: Um, and these trawls were going on throughout day and night. (40:30):
undefined

Speaker: So there was a little bit of parsing out that needs to be (40:33):
undefined

Speaker: done with respect to time. (40:35):
undefined

Speaker: So it'll be interesting to see how these animals kind of living (40:37):
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Speaker: on top of each other are all feeding very similarly. (40:41):
undefined

Speaker: And do you have much of a size (40:44):
undefined

Speaker: range, or do you have some that (40:45):
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Speaker: are, um, larger or older than (40:46):
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Speaker: others and sort of overlapping (40:48):
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Speaker: cohorts? (40:50):
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Speaker: I would say there's a couple that I would be comfortable (40:50):
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Speaker: saying are adults and not to do this and a gonatopsis. (40:53):
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Speaker: But everyone else is pretty much a paralarvae or subadults, so (40:57):
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Speaker: they'll fit in your hand. (41:01):
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Speaker: They're pretty small, and then a (41:02):
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Speaker: few are very, very new (41:03):
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Speaker: paralarvae of course, as they go (41:05):
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Speaker: through those different life (41:07):
undefined

Speaker: phases, um, a lot of these (41:08):
undefined

Speaker: animals change their diet along (41:10):
undefined

Speaker: the way, not just, um, just size (41:11):
undefined

Speaker: classes, but completely (41:14):
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Speaker: different taxa. (41:15):
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Speaker: So really interested to hear, because some of these ones that (41:16):
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Speaker: you're studying, this will be the first dietary information (41:19):
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Speaker: for them ever. (41:22):
undefined

Speaker: So anything that you can contribute there will be really (41:23):
undefined

Speaker: valuable in helping us understand the biology of these (41:26):
undefined

Speaker: hard to get to species. (41:28):
undefined

Speaker: Definitely. (41:29):
undefined

Speaker: And also kind of funny that (41:30):
undefined

Speaker: they're in such a well-studied (41:31):
undefined

Speaker: system. (41:33):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: The California current system is a highly researched area and (41:33):
undefined

Speaker: still a lot we don't know. (41:37):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: You know, relatively speaking, when we say highly researched (41:39):
undefined

Speaker: area of pelagic or deep sea that is very different from highly (41:42):
undefined

Speaker: researched stream or highly researched forest system, right? (41:47):
undefined

Speaker: It's of course, any takeaways (41:52):
undefined

Speaker: from kayak that you found really (41:54):
undefined

Speaker: cool? (41:56):
undefined

Speaker: Just being around cephalopod (41:56):
undefined

Speaker: people is really fun here at (41:58):
undefined

Speaker: Scripps, where there are only (41:59):
undefined

Speaker: two of us working on squids in (42:00):
undefined

Speaker: general, and we do very, very (42:02):
undefined

Speaker: different things. (42:04):
undefined

Speaker: Um, so kind of being around a community that understands what (42:05):
undefined

Speaker: you're going through and can talk through the nitty gritty, (42:08):
undefined

Speaker: um, is really, really helpful. (42:10):
undefined

Speaker: So I'm in a zooplankton lab and it's very helpful for me kind of (42:13):
undefined

Speaker: looking at the overall trophic ecology of the system. (42:17):
undefined

Speaker: Um, but I don't have as much of (42:20):
undefined

Speaker: as many of those squid specific (42:22):
undefined

Speaker: conversations. (42:24):
undefined

Speaker: Um, so that was helpful to get a bit more perspective about what (42:26):
undefined

Speaker: people are working on and how it kind of lines up with other (42:29):
undefined

Speaker: parts of the world. (42:32):
undefined

Speaker: Seems like, uh, a lot of the early career researchers who (42:33):
undefined

Speaker: were there, the grad students and the recent graduates, um, (42:36):
undefined

Speaker: there's a really nice community in that kind of career stage. (42:39):
undefined

Speaker: And, uh, it just seemed like, (42:43):
undefined

Speaker: you know, people were having a (42:44):
undefined

Speaker: great time making connections (42:45):
undefined

Speaker: and building those relationships (42:47):
undefined

Speaker: with their their future (42:49):
undefined

Speaker: colleagues, which is great to (42:50):
undefined

Speaker: see. (42:51):
undefined

Speaker: Definitely. (42:51):
undefined

Speaker: I think it helps a little bit with imposter syndrome to kind (42:52):
undefined

Speaker: of hear that people are struggling with similar things. (42:55):
undefined

Speaker: We're all kind of at the same (42:57):
undefined

Speaker: same place doing different (42:59):
undefined

Speaker: things. (43:00):
undefined

Speaker: But that was, I think, very (43:00):
undefined

Speaker: useful to experience imposter (43:02):
undefined

Speaker: syndrome. (43:04):
undefined

Speaker: Fortunately or unfortunately doesn't necessarily go away. (43:05):
undefined

Speaker: You know, those those of us who (43:08):
undefined

Speaker: have been doing it for a while, (43:09):
undefined

Speaker: we're maybe just better at (43:11):
undefined

Speaker: hiding it. (43:12):
undefined

Speaker: It doesn't mean it's not there. (43:12):
undefined

Speaker: That's fair. (43:15):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you so much, Christina. (43:15):
undefined

Speaker: That was great. (43:16):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you so much for having me. (43:17):
undefined

Speaker: We also have someone in our lab, the squid Squad, who is studying (43:19):
undefined

Speaker: squid diets locally. (43:23):
undefined

Speaker: Using this same combination of (43:25):
undefined

Speaker: factors morphological IDs, co1 (43:26):
undefined

Speaker: barcoding, and longer term (43:29):
undefined

Speaker: stable isotope. (43:31):
undefined

Speaker: With those, he's investigating (43:32):
undefined

Speaker: the diets of five deep sea (43:33):
undefined

Speaker: squids whose diets are either (43:35):
undefined

Speaker: completely unknown or have not (43:37):
undefined

Speaker: been investigated in New Zealand (43:38):
undefined

Speaker: before. (43:40):
undefined

Speaker: So this is Sam Cleugh from the Squid Squad. (43:40):
undefined

Speaker: Part of my PhD research focuses (43:43):
undefined

Speaker: on the dietary niches of the (43:45):
undefined

Speaker: Angolan and the Antarctic flying (43:47):
undefined

Speaker: squids. (43:49):
undefined

Speaker: These sister species both look quite similar. (43:49):
undefined

Speaker: They're about one meter long and (43:52):
undefined

Speaker: weigh about three to four (43:53):
undefined

Speaker: kilograms. (43:54):
undefined

Speaker: These two species are so similar to each other we would expect (43:55):
undefined

Speaker: them to exclude one another. (43:57):
undefined

Speaker: Yet both co-occur in New Zealand waters. (43:59):
undefined

Speaker: I hypothesize that the mechanism (44:02):
undefined

Speaker: behind their coexistence is that (44:04):
undefined

Speaker: when these two species co-occur, (44:06):
undefined

Speaker: they select different types of (44:07):
undefined

Speaker: prey to avoid competition with (44:09):
undefined

Speaker: each other. (44:10):
undefined

Speaker: To investigate this hypothesis, (44:11):
undefined

Speaker: I've been identifying prey (44:13):
undefined

Speaker: species from the stomach (44:14):
undefined

Speaker: contents of the two squid (44:15):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Yet this method only provides a (44:18):
undefined

Speaker: snapshot of what they've (44:19):
undefined

Speaker: recently eaten. (44:21):
undefined

Speaker: To overcome this bias, I have been analysing the nitrogen (44:22):
undefined

Speaker: fifteen and carbon thirteen values of the squids beaks. (44:25):
undefined

Speaker: To put simply, the different (44:28):
undefined

Speaker: prey groups have their own (44:30):
undefined

Speaker: nitrogen fifteen and carbon (44:31):
undefined

Speaker: thirteen values which are (44:32):
undefined

Speaker: absorbed into the squid speaks (44:34):
undefined

Speaker: when it eats them, making the (44:36):
undefined

Speaker: squid beaks more like the (44:37):
undefined

Speaker: nitrogen fifteen and carbon (44:38):
undefined

Speaker: thirteen values of prey (44:40):
undefined

Speaker: regularly consumes. (44:42):
undefined

Speaker: So what did I find? (44:43):
undefined

Speaker: Squids had a lot of lanternfish in their stomach contents, which (44:45):
undefined

Speaker: were these tiny fish that rise from the deep sea to feed on (44:48):
undefined

Speaker: planktonic crustaceans at the surface at night time. (44:51):
undefined

Speaker: Both species also have their (44:53):
undefined

Speaker: fair share of the larger deep (44:55):
undefined

Speaker: sea fish, such as hoki and (44:56):
undefined

Speaker: rattail fish. (44:58):
undefined

Speaker: Despite the overlap, the ongoing flying squid had a greater (44:59):
undefined

Speaker: diversity of small cephalopod species such as the gelatinous (45:02):
undefined

Speaker: telescope octopus based on stomach content analysis. (45:06):
undefined

Speaker: It would seem that their diets are quite similar to each other. (45:09):
undefined

Speaker: However, nitrogen fifteen and carbon thirteen values tell us a (45:12):
undefined

Speaker: very different story. (45:16):
undefined

Speaker: The Angolan flying squid had (45:17):
undefined

Speaker: values more like the small squid (45:18):
undefined

Speaker: and lanternfish we found in the (45:20):
undefined

Speaker: stomach, whereas the Antarctic (45:22):
undefined

Speaker: flying squid had carbon and (45:24):
undefined

Speaker: nitrogen fifteen values more (45:25):
undefined

Speaker: comparable to the larger deep (45:27):
undefined

Speaker: sea fish we regularly found in (45:29):
undefined

Speaker: Steinhardt. (45:30):
undefined

Speaker: So it seems that despite the stomach content analysis (45:31):
undefined

Speaker: overlap, the two flying squid species do diverge more in (45:35):
undefined

Speaker: stomach content, and analysis would initially indicate. (45:38):
undefined

Speaker: Thanks for listening to me talk a little bit about my research? (45:41):
undefined

Speaker: If you want to learn more about my research, you can find me on (45:44):
undefined

Speaker: ResearchGate and also check out Fernando's online talk. (45:47):
undefined

Speaker: If you'd like to learn more (45:50):
undefined

Speaker: about the biology of flying (45:51):
undefined

Speaker: squids. (45:52):
undefined

Speaker: If we want to give people a hand (45:53):
undefined

Speaker: with sort of trophic levels and (45:55):
undefined

Speaker: stable isotopes, a nice little (45:57):
undefined

Speaker: primer on that is there are (46:00):
undefined

Speaker: different isotopes of some (46:02):
undefined

Speaker: common molecules. (46:03):
undefined

Speaker: There are some that are a little (46:04):
undefined

Speaker: bit heavier, and biological (46:05):
undefined

Speaker: systems seem to like those (46:08):
undefined

Speaker: heavier ones. (46:09):
undefined

Speaker: They integrate them into things at a slightly higher rate than (46:10):
undefined

Speaker: they're found in nature. (46:13):
undefined

Speaker: And so every step of the food web, you end up with a little (46:14):
undefined

Speaker: bit more of these ones. (46:18):
undefined

Speaker: So the ratio changes. (46:19):
undefined

Speaker: It's really interesting that we can use such chemistry to find (46:21):
undefined

Speaker: out, well, how high are you in the food chain? (46:23):
undefined

Speaker: Who's eating who? (46:25):
undefined

Speaker: So that's where the sort of trophic and the stable isotope (46:27):
undefined

Speaker: side of things come. (46:29):
undefined

Speaker: And now that we've got genetic (46:30):
undefined

Speaker: barcoding again, we can sequence (46:32):
undefined

Speaker: the goo and find out who is in (46:34):
undefined

Speaker: the goo. (46:36):
undefined

Speaker: So those two approaches are letting us know where they sit (46:36):
undefined

Speaker: within the food web. (46:39):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: And there were some really cool (46:40):
undefined

Speaker: talks about different types of (46:41):
undefined

Speaker: chemistry. (46:43):
undefined

Speaker: So the beaks of squids and octopuses are one of the (46:44):
undefined

Speaker: structures that people tend to use most often. (46:47):
undefined

Speaker: For these stable isotope analyses, there are trace (46:50):
undefined

Speaker: elements recorded in the statolith, which is the squid (46:53):
undefined

Speaker: version of the otolith as well. (46:55):
undefined

Speaker: And those have really well defined growth increments. (46:56):
undefined

Speaker: So if you know how often those (46:59):
undefined

Speaker: growth increments are laid down, (47:00):
undefined

Speaker: you can actually get a really (47:01):
undefined

Speaker: detailed read on the squid's (47:03):
undefined

Speaker: life history. (47:04):
undefined

Speaker: And as you mentioned, those (47:05):
undefined

Speaker: nitrogen isotopes give us (47:06):
undefined

Speaker: trophic information. (47:07):
undefined

Speaker: You can also study carbon isotopes which give more of a (47:08):
undefined

Speaker: geographic or depth profile. (47:11):
undefined

Speaker: And then if you have lots of funding, you can study oxygen (47:13):
undefined

Speaker: isotopes, which give you an indication of where in the water (47:18):
undefined

Speaker: column the animal's been. (47:20):
undefined

Speaker: And that gives us some (47:21):
undefined

Speaker: interesting insight into maybe (47:22):
undefined

Speaker: ontogenetic descent from those (47:24):
undefined

Speaker: early life stages in the shallow (47:26):
undefined

Speaker: waters down into the deep sea (47:27):
undefined

Speaker: later on. (47:29):
undefined

Speaker: And we had someone speak about the fact that you can actually (47:29):
undefined

Speaker: recover quite a lot of hormone information from beaks as well. (47:32):
undefined

Speaker: So they're starting. (47:35):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: So starting to get some further (47:36):
undefined

Speaker: insight into physiology and life (47:38):
undefined

Speaker: cycles based on studying those (47:40):
undefined

Speaker: from beaks. (47:42):
undefined

Speaker: People are using historical (47:43):
undefined

Speaker: collections from museums to (47:44):
undefined

Speaker: track past climate fluctuations (47:45):
undefined

Speaker: as well. (47:48):
undefined

Speaker: Few people are looking at the (47:49):
undefined

Speaker: chemistry of the embryo and its (47:50):
undefined

Speaker: surrounding fluid within the (47:53):
undefined

Speaker: egg, and looking at whether the (47:54):
undefined

Speaker: depletion in oxygen across (47:56):
undefined

Speaker: development is what eventually (47:57):
undefined

Speaker: triggers hatching. (47:59):
undefined

Speaker: The oxygen levels just get so low inside the egg that the (48:00):
undefined

Speaker: squid has to hatch, and then it actually gives a visible little (48:03):
undefined

Speaker: gasp as it comes out. (48:06):
undefined

Speaker: So lots of really cool ecology and chemistry stuff. (48:08):
undefined

Speaker: We have another interesting (48:10):
undefined

Speaker: aspect of ecology running in the (48:12):
undefined

Speaker: squid squad. (48:14):
undefined

Speaker: So student Marina Maranzana from our lab is just about to submit (48:15):
undefined

Speaker: her thesis about symbiosis. (48:19):
undefined

Speaker: So about the microbiota associated with deep sea squids. (48:22):
undefined

Speaker: I know you just spoke with Margaret Mcfall-ngai. (48:25):
undefined

Speaker: That was an awesome interview. (48:27):
undefined

Speaker: Marina is studying a far less well understood system of who (48:28):
undefined

Speaker: lives in association with the deep sea squids. (48:34):
undefined

Speaker: Ciao. (48:37):
undefined

Speaker: I'm Marina, a PhD student at Aut's Lab for Cephalopod Ecology (48:37):
undefined

Speaker: and Systematics, also known as alces I, studied the microbiota (48:41):
undefined

Speaker: of deep sea squids. (48:46):
undefined

Speaker: This means I look at the different bacteria that live on (48:47):
undefined

Speaker: and inside these squids. (48:50):
undefined

Speaker: For my PhD, I focused on nine different species of squids, all (48:51):
undefined

Speaker: within the order of Gökceada, including the colossal squid. (48:55):
undefined

Speaker: The bacteria that I have found is quite different than the (48:58):
undefined

Speaker: bacteria that has currently been reported in coastal squids. (49:01):
undefined

Speaker: This is especially true for (49:04):
undefined

Speaker: bacteria found in the (49:05):
undefined

Speaker: reproductive organs. (49:06):
undefined

Speaker: We think this might be because (49:08):
undefined

Speaker: of the different egg laying (49:09):
undefined

Speaker: strategies between deep sea and (49:10):
undefined

Speaker: coastal squids. (49:12):
undefined

Speaker: Coastal squids are known for laying egg masses on the sea (49:13):
undefined

Speaker: floor, and from what we know of deep sea squids, they tend to (49:16):
undefined

Speaker: brood their eggs in their arms or lay floating egg masses. (49:19):
undefined

Speaker: Therefore, they might need (49:22):
undefined

Speaker: different bacteria to protect (49:23):
undefined

Speaker: their eggs. (49:25):
undefined

Speaker: Given these initial findings, it (49:26):
undefined

Speaker: would be interesting to look at (49:27):
undefined

Speaker: what the functions of these (49:28):
undefined

Speaker: bacteria are. (49:29):
undefined

Speaker: Although the reproductive organs (49:30):
undefined

Speaker: of deep sea and coastal squids (49:32):
undefined

Speaker: harbor different bacteria, the (49:33):
undefined

Speaker: different genera of bacteria (49:35):
undefined

Speaker: might be performing similar (49:37):
undefined

Speaker: functions. (49:38):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you for having me and keep (49:39):
undefined

Speaker: an eye out for any future (49:40):
undefined

Speaker: publications if you're (49:42):
undefined

Speaker: interested. (49:42):
undefined

Speaker: So all of these ecological studies are interesting because (49:43):
undefined

Speaker: they're providing insights into these animals, sometimes for the (49:46):
undefined

Speaker: first time, even for a species within the whole family. (49:50):
undefined

Speaker: Might be the first time we know anything about that family. (49:53):
undefined

Speaker: But as we know from many different deep sea groups, what (49:55):
undefined

Speaker: we're finding out now may or may not represent a baseline of how (49:58):
undefined

Speaker: things were before humans started to mess with stuff. (50:02):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Because we're learning this stuff for the first time, but (50:05):
undefined

Speaker: the oceans are already changing. (50:07):
undefined

Speaker: So we had lots of talks about the effects of temperature and (50:08):
undefined

Speaker: acidification on different aspects of cephalopod biology. (50:12):
undefined

Speaker: There was the sort of perception that cephalopod stocks were (50:16):
undefined

Speaker: expanding worldwide because the overharvesting of their (50:19):
undefined

Speaker: competitors and predators, specifically large fin fishes, (50:23):
undefined

Speaker: has left some vacancies that cephalopods can rapidly fill. (50:26):
undefined

Speaker: But it turns out, you know, that some of these rapidly warming (50:29):
undefined

Speaker: and acidifying conditions are not great for them either. (50:32):
undefined

Speaker: so probably did have increasing populations in some cases for (50:35):
undefined

Speaker: the last couple of decades. (50:39):
undefined

Speaker: But some of those are starting to come back down again. (50:40):
undefined

Speaker: But we're also seeing some changes in range. (50:42):
undefined

Speaker: Like famously, the Humboldt (50:44):
undefined

Speaker: squid's range has expanded, and (50:45):
undefined

Speaker: there was a very interesting (50:48):
undefined

Speaker: talk from Mike Navarro about new (50:50):
undefined

Speaker: range expansion of a deep sea (50:52):
undefined

Speaker: squid into the waters outside (50:54):
undefined

Speaker: his laboratory. (50:56):
undefined

Speaker: Right now, I'm speaking with Doctor Michael Navarro, who's an (50:57):
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Speaker: associate professor of marine fisheries at the Department of (51:00):
undefined

Speaker: Natural Sciences at the University of Alaska Southeast. (51:03):
undefined

Speaker: Thanks for joining me, Mike. (51:06):
undefined

Speaker: Hi. It's great to be doing this podcast. (51:07):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you. (51:09):
undefined

Speaker: You talked about a really cool thing, right? (51:10):
undefined

Speaker: So in the era of some of the (51:11):
undefined

Speaker: changes we're seeing in the (51:14):
undefined

Speaker: ocean, one of the big questions (51:15):
undefined

Speaker: is how our species ranges (51:17):
undefined

Speaker: changing. (51:18):
undefined

Speaker: And you told us that you're seeing some interesting changes (51:19):
undefined

Speaker: in your local marine ecosystems that involve deep sea squids. (51:22):
undefined

Speaker: So can you tell us what's going on? (51:25):
undefined

Speaker: Sure. (51:27):
undefined

Speaker: Here in Alaska, as far as for (51:27):
undefined

Speaker: those squid that have the (51:29):
undefined

Speaker: potential to be fishery species, (51:31):
undefined

Speaker: that includes. (51:33):
undefined

Speaker: this opalescence as well as Manchester. (51:34):
undefined

Speaker: One of those is endemic. (51:37):
undefined

Speaker: That's to Manchester. (51:38):
undefined

Speaker: Or the armhook squid or magister (51:40):
undefined

Speaker: squid as they're sometimes (51:42):
undefined

Speaker: referred to and they're (51:43):
undefined

Speaker: abundant, seems to be increasing (51:45):
undefined

Speaker: a bit. (51:47):
undefined

Speaker: That's at least what (51:47):
undefined

Speaker: anecdotally, our fishermen have (51:48):
undefined

Speaker: been talking about over the last (51:50):
undefined

Speaker: few years. (51:52):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, and these are squids from the family gonad, right. (51:53):
undefined

Speaker: Which is one of the typical deep (51:55):
undefined

Speaker: sea squid families, like some (51:57):
undefined

Speaker: species, are known to carry (51:58):
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Speaker: their egg masses and brood them (52:00):
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Speaker: as a person who, like, likes to (52:01):
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Speaker: keep track of eggs or oceanic (52:02):
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Speaker: squid sightings on iNaturalist, (52:05):
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Speaker: I definitely have seen, I think, (52:06):
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Speaker: an increase in the berryteuthis (52:08):
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Speaker: sightings on iNaturalist as (52:10):
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Speaker: well. (52:11):
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Speaker: So this is in with some of the (52:12):
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Speaker: local fisheries that you have (52:14):
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Speaker: going on. (52:15):
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Speaker: How are the local community responding to these changes and (52:16):
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Speaker: what what might happen with the fisheries as a result? (52:18):
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Speaker: Well, our communities are really (52:21):
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Speaker: curious about the variables, (52:22):
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Speaker: magister. (52:23):
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Speaker: They have been seeing them in their catches. (52:24):
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Speaker: We have, as you can imagine, Alaska has. (52:27):
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Speaker: Our communities are very (52:29):
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Speaker: interested in all kinds of (52:31):
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Speaker: fisheries. (52:32):
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Speaker: So we have sablefish and of course halibut and a poor (52:33):
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Speaker: sablefish and halibut. (52:37):
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Speaker: These can be deeper sea fisheries so people can go down (52:38):
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Speaker: to one hundred meters or more sometimes to fish for them. (52:42):
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Speaker: And when they do every now and then they'll pick up some squid. (52:44):
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Speaker: And that's where I think a lot of the curiosity and interest is (52:48):
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Speaker: because people want to know, what is it? (52:51):
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Speaker: Why is it here? (52:53):
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Speaker: And but there hasn't been a fishery for these, for this (52:54):
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Speaker: species in the past. (52:56):
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Speaker: Right. (52:57):
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Speaker: Not not an appreciable one. (52:57):
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Speaker: No. That's exactly right. (52:59):
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Speaker: No commercial fisheries. (53:01):
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Speaker: There has been. (53:03):
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Speaker: In general, you can catch squid, (53:04):
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Speaker: but it's not even species (53:07):
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Speaker: specific. (53:08):
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Speaker: That's the particular policy. (53:09):
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Speaker: So there is interest in our (53:10):
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Speaker: community now from fishermen in (53:12):
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Speaker: developing commercial fishery (53:14):
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Speaker: for Manchester. (53:16):
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Speaker: You mentioned some really interesting sustainability (53:17):
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Speaker: requirements that all fisheries locally have to meet. (53:20):
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Speaker: Can you tell us a little bit about that? (53:22):
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Speaker: Oh yes. (53:24):
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Speaker: In Alaska it's in our state constitution. (53:25):
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Speaker: It's actually we are required by law, state law to have a (53:27):
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Speaker: sustainable guild principle, which means that in order to (53:31):
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Speaker: harvest anything, there needs to be demonstration that it can be (53:34):
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Speaker: done sustainably or to this sustainable guild principle. (53:38):
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Speaker: That means when somebody proposes a new fishery or any (53:41):
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Speaker: kind of resource extraction, natural resource extraction and (53:43):
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Speaker: demonstration that it can be done so sustainably, right? (53:47):
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Speaker: So as a prerequisite for getting a new fishery established, you (53:49):
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Speaker: have to show that it will be sustainable from the beginning. (53:53):
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Speaker: Correct? (53:55):
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Speaker: Yep. (53:56):
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Speaker: And then early in twenty twenty (53:56):
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Speaker: five, there was a proposal that (53:58):
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Speaker: was put in place for (53:59):
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Speaker: Berryteuthis magister. (54:01):
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Speaker: And to kind of give an example of this. (54:02):
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Speaker: That proposal is ultimately was not accepted because of a lack (54:05):
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Speaker: of biological information. (54:09):
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Speaker: Aha. (54:10):
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Speaker: Mike, somebody should study this squid. (54:11):
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Speaker: So that's what that's what (54:14):
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Speaker: really with encouragement from (54:15):
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Speaker: the community, working with the (54:16):
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Speaker: state, we're doing a little bit (54:19):
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Speaker: of that here at UAS southeast, (54:20):
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Speaker: and in particular looking at (54:22):
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Speaker: these harvested squid for a (54:24):
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Speaker: number of biological (54:26):
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Speaker: characteristics. (54:27):
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Speaker: Basic characteristics such as size, reproductive maturity, (54:28):
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Speaker: etc. as well as aging, and then kind of getting a little bit (54:32):
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Speaker: into what they're eating and those kind of this family of (54:35):
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Speaker: squids, the gonad squids. (54:37):
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Speaker: There are quite a few species (54:39):
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Speaker: that occur in the North Pacific, (54:40):
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Speaker: and I know they are fished in (54:41):
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Speaker: some places. (54:43):
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Speaker: One of the convenience stores I was in in Japan for this (54:44):
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Speaker: conference, there was a packet of dried squid, and looking at (54:47):
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Speaker: the photo on it, I could tell that it was a gonad squid (54:49):
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Speaker: because it had the right unique armature on the arms that were (54:52):
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Speaker: visible in the photo. (54:56):
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Speaker: So that was a first for me being able to ID something based on (54:57):
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Speaker: the photo on the package for a deep sea squid. (55:00):
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Speaker: Maybe that means that, you know, there'll be some published (55:02):
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Speaker: fisheries information for related species that you could (55:04):
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Speaker: draw on as well. (55:07):
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undefined

Speaker: In fact, Japan is one of the (55:08):
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Speaker: leading their teams there, as (55:10):
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Speaker: well as, uh, Russian research (55:11):
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Speaker: teams are some of the key (55:12):
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Speaker: scientists for this particular (55:14):
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Speaker: species or has a range that (55:15):
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Speaker: extends from Japan all the way (55:18):
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Speaker: through the North Pacific, down (55:20):
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Speaker: into the States, through Canada, (55:22):
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Speaker: etc.. I see I mean, it's (55:24):
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Speaker: certainly not one that we're (55:25):
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Speaker: familiar with. (55:26):
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Speaker: We only have one species in that (55:26):
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Speaker: family down around New Zealand, (55:28):
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Speaker: and that is one that is mostly (55:30):
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Speaker: Antarctic, but does occur a (55:32):
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Speaker: little bit further north (55:33):
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Speaker: sometimes, but it's a real (55:34):
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Speaker: distinctive one. (55:35):
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Speaker: In my pages and pages of notes I took at kayak. (55:36):
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Speaker: I was looking over, um, cool (55:38):
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Speaker: stuff you had said in your talk, (55:40):
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Speaker: and I think you were the person (55:41):
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Speaker: who mentioned that the embryos (55:43):
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Speaker: of cephalopods that have large (55:46):
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Speaker: eggs can see prey while they're (55:48):
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Speaker: still in the egg, and that's (55:50):
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Speaker: when they develop their search (55:51):
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Speaker: image. (55:52):
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Speaker: Did you say that? (55:53):
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undefined

Speaker: That's correct. (55:54):
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undefined

Speaker: They basically are born into this world ready to hunt. (55:55):
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Speaker: That is amazing that they can see through the egg capsule and (55:58):
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Speaker: well enough to start knowing already what they're looking for (56:02):
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Speaker: when they had to start hunting. (56:05):
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Speaker: I tell you what, when I go fishing, you know, if I don't (56:06):
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Speaker: catch anything, I still get to go home and eat. (56:09):
undefined

Speaker: But like for for these little (56:11):
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Speaker: baby squid, they have to be able (56:13):
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Speaker: to successfully hunt, but (56:14):
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Speaker: successfully hunt within a few (56:16):
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Speaker: days or else they run out of (56:17):
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Speaker: yolk. (56:18):
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Speaker: That's amazing. (56:19):
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Speaker: And there are some both, some squid and some octopuses that (56:19):
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Speaker: have relatively large eggs and I, you know, picturing those (56:23):
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Speaker: embryos that make sense to me. (56:27):
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Speaker: Now, of course, I'm wondering for the real deep sea ones that (56:28):
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Speaker: have those large eggs, if those babies are also still hunting (56:31):
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Speaker: visually, and if they have this development because, you know, (56:35):
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Speaker: like mega, the big Antarctic deep sea octopus, those eggs can (56:37):
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Speaker: be like four centimeters long. (56:41):
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Speaker: Those are pretty well developed babies when they hatch. (56:43):
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Speaker: Now, I wonder what they're (56:45):
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Speaker: capable of as soon as they come (56:46):
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Speaker: out. (56:47):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, that is interesting. (56:48):
undefined

Speaker: That is big. (56:49):
undefined

Speaker: That's. (56:50):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: That's huge eggs. (56:50):
undefined

Speaker: I couldn't believe we had a female specimen and some of the (56:52):
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Speaker: eggs came out. (56:54):
undefined

Speaker: I was just like, those have got (56:55):
undefined

Speaker: to be the biggest cephalopod (56:56):
undefined

Speaker: eggs, you know, by orders of (56:57):
undefined

Speaker: magnitude. (56:59):
undefined

Speaker: It was amazing. (56:59):
undefined

Speaker: I've really enjoyed your talk at (57:00):
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Speaker: kayak, and I'm glad to be able (57:01):
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Speaker: to follow up with you on some (57:03):
undefined

Speaker: other projects. (57:04):
undefined

Speaker: Wonderful talk. (57:04):
undefined

Speaker: So in this changing world, cephalopods are rapid adapters (57:05):
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Speaker: to environmental change. (57:10):
undefined

Speaker: But some of their biology is particularly interesting because (57:12):
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Speaker: they have the ability to do some pretty neat tricks to assist (57:16):
undefined

Speaker: with these rapid adaptations. (57:20):
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Speaker: So I know octopus RNA editing has been an interesting topic (57:22):
undefined

Speaker: for a couple of years because there are aliens, right? (57:26):
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Speaker: Because of the aliens thing. (57:28):
undefined

Speaker: Because how? (57:29):
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Speaker: They're aliens. (57:30):
undefined

Speaker: Oh, you know what? (57:31):
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Speaker: I know somebody we should ask about whether they're aliens. (57:32):
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Speaker: Let's ask Meg Midlane. (57:34):
undefined

Speaker: Hi, my name is Meg Midlane. (57:35):
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Speaker: I am a molecular biologist and science communicator, and I (57:38):
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Speaker: study octopuses and a molecular mechanism that they do called a (57:42):
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Speaker: to I RNA editing. (57:46):
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Speaker: And my socials are invertebrate. (57:48):
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Speaker: The only different one is Instagram which has a dot in (57:52):
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Speaker: between in and vertebrates. (57:56):
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Speaker: So thank you so much Meg for (57:58):
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Speaker: having a chat with me about your (57:59):
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Speaker: research. (58:00):
undefined

Speaker: You're also one of the main (58:01):
undefined

Speaker: organisers of the CF research (58:03):
undefined

Speaker: network. (58:05):
undefined

Speaker: Discord, correct? (58:05):
undefined

Speaker: Yes, I am though Austin started it and so I think he deserves (58:06):
undefined

Speaker: most of the credit. (58:10):
undefined

Speaker: You're doing a project on octopus RNA editing and this is (58:11):
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Speaker: really a cool topic. (58:16):
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Speaker: I learned a lot about it at kayak, and I'm excited to have (58:18):
undefined

Speaker: you tell us a little bit more? (58:21):
undefined

Speaker: It is one of the things that people who do sitcom have to (58:22):
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Speaker: myth bust quite a lot. (58:27):
undefined

Speaker: So I'm going to come right out (58:29):
undefined

Speaker: with the question you probably (58:30):
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Speaker: hate, which is Meg, are (58:31):
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Speaker: octopuses aliens? (58:33):
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Speaker: It would be really fun if they were, but they're not. (58:35):
undefined

Speaker: And it is. (58:39):
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Speaker: I think I have to talk about a lot, because my research and (58:40):
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Speaker: other scientists who do RNA editing research have kind of (58:44):
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Speaker: been put in the crossfire for this question, because there is (58:47):
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Speaker: a academic paper out there that puts up this hypothesis that (58:52):
undefined

Speaker: octopuses have come from a meteorite from outer space and (58:55):
undefined

Speaker: uses RNA editing as the evidence for this claim. (59:00):
undefined

Speaker: It's a very bad paper. (59:05):
undefined

Speaker: It has not been peer reviewed. (59:06):
undefined

Speaker: But nonetheless, it's spread (59:08):
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Speaker: like wildfire all over the (59:10):
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Speaker: internet. (59:11):
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Speaker: And, you know, with some understanding that, you know, (59:12):
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Speaker: people know a lot about octopuses and they're really (59:15):
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Speaker: weird and they're considered the only intelligent invertebrate. (59:17):
undefined

Speaker: So it's not like far off on (59:22):
undefined

Speaker: people's radars to really (59:24):
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Speaker: believe this, but they are not (59:25):
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Speaker: aliens. (59:27):
undefined

Speaker: I think the thing that annoys me (59:28):
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Speaker: the most about the claim that (59:30):
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Speaker: octopuses are aliens is that I (59:32):
undefined

Speaker: think it is so much cooler to be (59:34):
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Speaker: as weird as they are, and to be (59:36):
undefined

Speaker: made of all the same materials (59:39):
undefined

Speaker: that we are made of, which is (59:41):
undefined

Speaker: part of the reason why I love (59:43):
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Speaker: RNA editing. (59:44):
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Speaker: It's because it's a molecular (59:45):
undefined

Speaker: mechanism that everybody else (59:47):
undefined

Speaker: uses, but it is utilized in a (59:49):
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Speaker: completely different way in (59:52):
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Speaker: cephalopods and a way that, like (59:54):
undefined

Speaker: we had not imagined before (59:56):
undefined

Speaker: because like, I love sci fi, I (59:59):
undefined

Speaker: love fiction, you know, I love (01:00:01):
undefined

Speaker: the creativity that people put (01:00:03):
undefined

Speaker: towards the ocean and deep sea (01:00:07):
undefined

Speaker: animals and what fuels a lot of (01:00:08):
undefined

Speaker: our narrative surrounding, you (01:00:10):
undefined

Speaker: know, deep sea animals being (01:00:12):
undefined

Speaker: aliens. (01:00:14):
undefined

Speaker: A lot of our creatures are inspired by them. (01:00:14):
undefined

Speaker: But nobody ever thought of RNA editing. (01:00:16):
undefined

Speaker: No one ever thought of. (01:00:18):
undefined

Speaker: Wouldn't it be so wacky and interesting if someone, some (01:00:20):
undefined

Speaker: animal, edited their RNA to change their proteins, to change (01:00:24):
undefined

Speaker: the way that their bodies communicate to each other as a (01:00:29):
undefined

Speaker: tool of genetic editing, instead of just like changing your DNA, (01:00:32):
undefined

Speaker: which every writer out there has written a story about. (01:00:36):
undefined

Speaker: And so I love that for them, (01:00:40):
undefined

Speaker: because it's just so interesting (01:00:41):
undefined

Speaker: and unique and something that (01:00:42):
undefined

Speaker: humans had not yet thought of (01:00:44):
undefined

Speaker: until we found it such a (01:00:45):
undefined

Speaker: recurring thing in Deep Sea, (01:00:47):
undefined

Speaker: right? (01:00:48):
undefined

Speaker: It's like we come up with all of these wild sci fi and fantasy (01:00:48):
undefined

Speaker: creatures, and then it turns out there's all this stuff in the (01:00:53):
undefined

Speaker: deep sea that goes even way further beyond sort of the (01:00:56):
undefined

Speaker: wildest imaginings of what we've come up with there. (01:01:00):
undefined

Speaker: Real like they actually exist, and it's even more bonkers than (01:01:02):
undefined

Speaker: what we've invented. (01:01:06):
undefined

Speaker: No, it's part of the reason why I love the Deep sea, because so (01:01:07):
undefined

Speaker: much of our stories come from the deep sea, from artists being (01:01:10):
undefined

Speaker: inspired by things in the ocean and then writing really funky (01:01:16):
undefined

Speaker: stories to go along with it. (01:01:20):
undefined

Speaker: And I think the deep sea just (01:01:22):
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Speaker: like, fuels people's creativity (01:01:24):
undefined

Speaker: and imagination. (01:01:26):
undefined

Speaker: And I'm really just kind of sad that that imagination spread (01:01:27):
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Speaker: into disinformation on the internet instead of like, I (01:01:32):
undefined

Speaker: don't know, a cool sci fi novel. (01:01:36):
undefined

Speaker: Once we get down to the really (01:01:38):
undefined

Speaker: weird, kooky things that animals (01:01:40):
undefined

Speaker: do. (01:01:41):
undefined

Speaker: It's just like, oh my God, I (01:01:42):
undefined

Speaker: can't believe that this is a (01:01:43):
undefined

Speaker: real thing. (01:01:44):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, this this shares my planet and we share ancestors (01:01:45):
undefined

Speaker: with this thing. (01:01:49):
undefined

Speaker: That's what I think. (01:01:50):
undefined

Speaker: RNA editing is so cool because, (01:01:51):
undefined

Speaker: like, man, like they they did (01:01:52):
undefined

Speaker: something completely different (01:01:54):
undefined

Speaker: than us with, like, the same (01:01:55):
undefined

Speaker: materials. (01:01:57):
undefined

Speaker: For those of us who have vaguely (01:01:58):
undefined

Speaker: heard about RNA editing as a (01:02:00):
undefined

Speaker: concept previously, but don't (01:02:03):
undefined

Speaker: have a deep understanding of it, (01:02:04):
undefined

Speaker: can you tell us a little bit (01:02:06):
undefined

Speaker: about generally what it is and (01:02:07):
undefined

Speaker: the fact that lots of animals do (01:02:09):
undefined

Speaker: it, but then what it is that (01:02:10):
undefined

Speaker: octopuses are doing that's (01:02:12):
undefined

Speaker: different. (01:02:13):
undefined

Speaker: The way I like to preface my RNA editing explanation is that we (01:02:14):
undefined

Speaker: kind of all know animals evolve through random mutation to their (01:02:17):
undefined

Speaker: DNA, and that's kind of how we acquire traits and change things (01:02:21):
undefined

Speaker: about our bodies. (01:02:25):
undefined

Speaker: And in very simple terms, you (01:02:26):
undefined

Speaker: know, become newer species and (01:02:28):
undefined

Speaker: organisms. (01:02:30):
undefined

Speaker: There's a second step to DNA that people often forget about. (01:02:31):
undefined

Speaker: Not anymore because of Covid RNA, which is our intermediate (01:02:35):
undefined

Speaker: step to getting our proteins, which is all of the things that (01:02:38):
undefined

Speaker: work and make your body work. (01:02:42):
undefined

Speaker: And the way I like to think (01:02:44):
undefined

Speaker: about it is that DNA is going to (01:02:45):
undefined

Speaker: be the cookbook to make all the (01:02:48):
undefined

Speaker: things that work in your body, (01:02:51):
undefined

Speaker: and RNA is going to be all of (01:02:52):
undefined

Speaker: those little individual recipes (01:02:54):
undefined

Speaker: sometimes. (01:02:56):
undefined

Speaker: Generally, a mutation arises in (01:02:57):
undefined

Speaker: your DNA, and you can think of (01:03:00):
undefined

Speaker: that as like swapping out (01:03:01):
undefined

Speaker: recipes or, you know, maybe (01:03:02):
undefined

Speaker: changing the cookbook (01:03:04):
undefined

Speaker: altogether. (01:03:05):
undefined

Speaker: But what octopuses and squid and cuttlefish are doing is they're (01:03:06):
undefined

Speaker: tinkering with the individual recipes themselves, the RNA and (01:03:10):
undefined

Speaker: what that ends up making is very similar versions of proteins (01:03:14):
undefined

Speaker: that act, you know, slightly different from each other. (01:03:20):
undefined

Speaker: So it's like if you have a chocolate chip cookie recipe and (01:03:22):
undefined

Speaker: you change out the amount of flour or the amount of salt. (01:03:24):
undefined

Speaker: Tinkering with those little (01:03:28):
undefined

Speaker: individual ingredients, you (01:03:29):
undefined

Speaker: still get a chocolate chip (01:03:30):
undefined

Speaker: cookie, but you get a chocolate (01:03:31):
undefined

Speaker: chip cookie in a bunch of (01:03:32):
undefined

Speaker: different textures, like you get (01:03:33):
undefined

Speaker: a cakey one, you get a chewy (01:03:34):
undefined

Speaker: one. (01:03:36):
undefined

Speaker: There's just lots of different (01:03:36):
undefined

Speaker: ways to make a chocolate chip (01:03:37):
undefined

Speaker: cookie. (01:03:39):
undefined

Speaker: Um, the way that octopus, squid, and cuttlefish are doing this is (01:03:39):
undefined

Speaker: they're tinkering with the little individual recipes and (01:03:42):
undefined

Speaker: slightly altering the proteins in their body as a result. (01:03:45):
undefined

Speaker: And so the way we've seen this is by studying temperature and (01:03:49):
undefined

Speaker: how warmer and colder water affects editing, because it's (01:03:53):
undefined

Speaker: happening all the time. (01:03:57):
undefined

Speaker: But it's easiest to change a variable. (01:03:58):
undefined

Speaker: Um, so like their environment (01:04:01):
undefined

Speaker: and see what's edited (01:04:02):
undefined

Speaker: differently. (01:04:03):
undefined

Speaker: Um, when you're studying (01:04:04):
undefined

Speaker: something like this and what (01:04:05):
undefined

Speaker: they found is, you know, it's (01:04:06):
undefined

Speaker: things like the rate of ions (01:04:08):
undefined

Speaker: moving in and out of a channel, (01:04:10):
undefined

Speaker: the rate of kinesin, which is a (01:04:12):
undefined

Speaker: motor protein walking across a (01:04:14):
undefined

Speaker: microtubule and even like (01:04:15):
undefined

Speaker: conformational changes to (01:04:17):
undefined

Speaker: proteins like Synaptotagmin, (01:04:19):
undefined

Speaker: which is a nervous system (01:04:20):
undefined

Speaker: protein. (01:04:21):
undefined

Speaker: And so all of these changes are (01:04:22):
undefined

Speaker: happening in their brain, and it (01:04:23):
undefined

Speaker: happens in the rest of their (01:04:25):
undefined

Speaker: body, but just more so in their (01:04:26):
undefined

Speaker: brain. (01:04:27):
undefined

Speaker: And the commonality is that they seem to be changing the rate of (01:04:27):
undefined

Speaker: their brain cells communicating to each other. (01:04:31):
undefined

Speaker: So just making little changes (01:04:34):
undefined

Speaker: depending on the temperature (01:04:36):
undefined

Speaker: that either speeds up that (01:04:38):
undefined

Speaker: communication or slows down that (01:04:39):
undefined

Speaker: communication. (01:04:41):
undefined

Speaker: I know that you mentioned a little bit about this with (01:04:41):
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Speaker: implications for climate change. (01:04:44):
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Speaker: I'm of course, thinking about, (01:04:46):
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Speaker: you know, whether and how much (01:04:48):
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Speaker: we know about this for deep sea (01:04:49):
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Speaker: stuff. (01:04:50):
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Speaker: So I know you you study animals that live in fairly cold water (01:04:50):
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Speaker: in the Pacific Northwest. (01:04:54):
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Speaker: Do we know anything about these (01:04:56):
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Speaker: mechanisms in the deeper sea (01:04:58):
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Speaker: species? (01:05:00):
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Speaker: We don't. (01:05:00):
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Speaker: Which drives me wild, because I want to know. (01:05:02):
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Speaker: The thinking is that these changes that cephalopods are (01:05:07):
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Speaker: making to their proteins can enable them to better acclimate (01:05:12):
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Speaker: to their environment. (01:05:16):
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Speaker: And so if you have an ocean that's constantly changing, (01:05:17):
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Speaker: which is, you know, an ocean that they've lived through, then (01:05:21):
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Speaker: it's a really great thing to be able to edit their proteins, to (01:05:24):
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Speaker: acclimate to those changes. (01:05:30):
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Speaker: If you have a wider range of (01:05:31):
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Speaker: ingredients or just variations (01:05:33):
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Speaker: available, the more likely you (01:05:35):
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Speaker: are to have something in your (01:05:37):
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Speaker: toolkit that lets you survive a (01:05:38):
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Speaker: change, right? (01:05:39):
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Speaker: Yeah, yeah. (01:05:40):
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Speaker: Yeah, exactly. (01:05:40):
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Speaker: And so like I'm setting this in regards to ocean acidification. (01:05:41):
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Speaker: And we're seeing how like a (01:05:44):
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Speaker: transcriptional factor, zinc (01:05:46):
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Speaker: finger proteins which repress or (01:05:47):
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Speaker: activate genes. (01:05:49):
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Speaker: Of course that's exactly what I thought they did. (01:05:50):
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Speaker: Yep. (01:05:52):
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Speaker: Yeah. (01:05:52):
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Speaker: So that's that's how they could (01:05:52):
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Speaker: a little bit too advanced in my (01:05:54):
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Speaker: terminology. (01:05:56):
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Speaker: But um, that's how they can work. (01:05:56):
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Speaker: I've linked my research to behavioral changes that, um, (01:05:59):
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Speaker: cephalopods make in result to, um, increased acidification. (01:06:03):
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Speaker: And so the idea is maybe that (01:06:07):
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Speaker: this is helping them out a (01:06:09):
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Speaker: little bit. (01:06:10):
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Speaker: But why this is so interesting with the deep sea is that in the (01:06:10):
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Speaker: deep sea, you don't have as much of a constantly changing ocean. (01:06:15):
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Speaker: You know, the environmental (01:06:19):
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Speaker: conditions are a little bit more (01:06:20):
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Speaker: stable. (01:06:22):
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Speaker: They're not like the warmer (01:06:22):
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Speaker: oceans that have gone through (01:06:24):
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Speaker: warming and cold and increased (01:06:25):
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Speaker: acidification and lower (01:06:27):
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Speaker: acidification. (01:06:28):
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Speaker: There's a little bit more stability. (01:06:29):
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Speaker: And so my question has always been like, well, is editing (01:06:31):
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Speaker: still happening then? (01:06:34):
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Speaker: Are they still needing it? (01:06:35):
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Speaker: Yeah, because I always make this point as well. (01:06:37):
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Speaker: Right. (01:06:38):
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Speaker: That the deep sea is an extreme (01:06:39):
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Speaker: environment in a lot of senses (01:06:41):
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Speaker: and in other senses, like if you (01:06:43):
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Speaker: compare that to a tide pool, a (01:06:45):
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Speaker: very different type of extreme, (01:06:46):
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Speaker: like it is an extreme set of (01:06:48):
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Speaker: circumstances, but with very, (01:06:50):
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Speaker: very slow rates of change in (01:06:52):
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Speaker: most places. (01:06:54):
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Speaker: Not the same as it changes on a six hour tidal cycle and goes (01:06:55):
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Speaker: from like completely dry to flooded and heavy wave action. (01:07:00):
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Speaker: So yeah, so, so maybe under these more stable conditions, (01:07:04):
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Speaker: these rapid adaptive mechanisms are not as needed, and we don't (01:07:06):
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Speaker: really know whether they persist or not in those taxa. (01:07:11):
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Speaker: But then like also the (01:07:14):
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Speaker: interesting thing is we know (01:07:15):
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Speaker: that the original RNA editing (01:07:17):
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Speaker: paper was done with an Arctic (01:07:19):
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Speaker: cephalopod. (01:07:21):
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Speaker: That's a very cold water, I think, kind of deep living (01:07:22):
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Speaker: octopus that they do found RNA editing rates with. (01:07:25):
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Speaker: And then also editing is suppressed in both warmer water (01:07:28):
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Speaker: and more acidic water. (01:07:34):
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Speaker: And so the deep sea is right. (01:07:36):
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Speaker: It's more acidic, but it's a lot colder. (01:07:39):
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Speaker: Editing could still be happening. (01:07:41):
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Speaker: But then like what's going on? (01:07:43):
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Speaker: What are they editing if that is happening? (01:07:45):
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Speaker: I don't know, there's just a lot of questions. (01:07:48):
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Speaker: One more question of what are they doing down there? (01:07:49):
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Speaker: We have we have so many questions about this. (01:07:52):
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Speaker: Interesting to hear you refer to, like the original paper that (01:07:55):
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Speaker: caused all of this trouble with octopuses being aliens. (01:07:58):
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Speaker: I am shocked and dismayed to (01:08:01):
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Speaker: discover maybe I'd forgotten (01:08:03):
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Speaker: that that was an actual paper (01:08:05):
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Speaker: that someone put out because I (01:08:06):
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Speaker: always thought it was someone (01:08:07):
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Speaker: had said they are the closest (01:08:08):
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Speaker: thing to aliens we have on (01:08:11):
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Speaker: Earth, and that like the media (01:08:12):
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Speaker: had just mangled that into that (01:08:14):
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Speaker: sound. (01:08:16):
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Speaker: Octopuses are aliens. (01:08:16):
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Speaker: I know that happens as well. (01:08:17):
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Speaker: Oh yeah, it was published by a (01:08:19):
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Speaker: bunch of astrobiologists, and (01:08:20):
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Speaker: there was no zoologist on the (01:08:23):
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Speaker: paper. (01:08:26):
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Speaker: There was like a huge amount of (01:08:26):
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Speaker: people on the paper, but no (01:08:28):
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Speaker: zoologists. (01:08:29):
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Speaker: And you could really tell once (01:08:30):
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Speaker: you got into the octopus section (01:08:32):
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Speaker: because they are also like, oh, (01:08:34):
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Speaker: well, you know, octopuses (01:08:35):
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Speaker: appeared out of nowhere and we (01:08:37):
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Speaker: have no idea their evolutionary (01:08:39):
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Speaker: history. (01:08:41):
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Speaker: Oh man. (01:08:42):
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Speaker: Like you, the way you just ignore an entire they don't (01:08:43):
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Speaker: fossilize like trilobites, but we know where they came from. (01:08:47):
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Speaker: Yeah, but we do know where they came from. (01:08:51):
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Speaker: And then it was also like they posed a hypothesis that squid (01:08:54):
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Speaker: turned into octopuses from a virus that came from outer (01:08:58):
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Speaker: space, which is a very funny graphic that they put in. (01:09:02):
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Speaker: It looked like it was made like a ten year old. (01:09:06):
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Speaker: It's a very funny paper, but also a very oh my God, I can't (01:09:08):
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Speaker: believe this got published in an academic journal and that it is (01:09:11):
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Speaker: going to haunt me and other octopus scientists for the rest (01:09:15):
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Speaker: of our lives. (01:09:18):
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Speaker: But you know, one of the things (01:09:19):
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Speaker: that this podcast is really good (01:09:20):
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Speaker: for is myth busting about deep (01:09:22):
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Speaker: sea stuff and, and associated (01:09:24):
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Speaker: things so. (01:09:25):
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Speaker: Well. (01:09:26):
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Speaker: Thank you so much, Meg, for having a chat with me. (01:09:26):
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Speaker: You do such cool work and I can't wait to hear when we get (01:09:28):
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Speaker: more insight into what's happening in the deep sea. (01:09:31):
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Speaker: Maybe we can work on that together. (01:09:34):
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Speaker: And thank you so much! (01:09:37):
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Speaker: Yes, thank you so much for (01:09:38):
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Speaker: having me on this podcast, I (01:09:39):
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Speaker: love it. (01:09:41):
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Speaker: I'm disappointed. (01:09:42):
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Speaker: I wanted them to be aliens. (01:09:43):
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Speaker: Well, I think a lot of people (01:09:44):
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Speaker: did and that's why it got the (01:09:45):
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Speaker: traction. (01:09:46):
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Speaker: Yeah, that's how it is. (01:09:47):
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Speaker: But you know, the pyramids were made by aliens, so, you know, (01:09:48):
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Speaker: it's all good. (01:09:50):
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Speaker: Um, Discovery Channel after (01:09:51):
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Speaker: eight p m. It's all Nazis and (01:09:52):
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Speaker: aliens. (01:09:54):
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Speaker: Sometimes both. (01:09:55):
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Speaker: What a party. (01:09:56):
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Speaker: As cephalopod populations are (01:09:58):
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Speaker: expanding, Contracting, changing (01:10:00):
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Speaker: their ranges. (01:10:04):
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Speaker: Oh, someone introduced the term (01:10:05):
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Speaker: to geography, which I really (01:10:06):
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Speaker: liked. (01:10:08):
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Speaker: So that's using cephalopod biogeography to infer other bits (01:10:08):
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Speaker: of information about oceans and food webs and trophic systems. (01:10:14):
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Speaker: Mobile rapid generation time. (01:10:17):
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Speaker: Historically, things like that (01:10:19):
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Speaker: have been done on like the (01:10:21):
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Speaker: brittle stars and things like (01:10:22):
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Speaker: that. (01:10:23):
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Speaker: But that's not going to respond (01:10:23):
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Speaker: rapidly to a changing world, (01:10:25):
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Speaker: whereas these are quite mobile (01:10:27):
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Speaker: animals. (01:10:28):
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Speaker: And there was a really amazing (01:10:29):
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Speaker: keynote actually, by Professor (01:10:31):
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Speaker: Jan Strugnell from Australia at (01:10:32):
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Speaker: James Cook University, who used (01:10:34):
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Speaker: the distribution of current deep (01:10:37):
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Speaker: sea octopus species around the (01:10:40):
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Speaker: Western peninsula in Antarctica (01:10:42):
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Speaker: to infer when the ice shelf last (01:10:43):
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Speaker: completely collapsed. (01:10:46):
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Speaker: Some differences in sea level at (01:10:47):
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Speaker: that time, and to also predict (01:10:49):
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Speaker: what might happen under future (01:10:52):
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Speaker: warming scenarios. (01:10:54):
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Speaker: So we'll link that paper in the show notes. (01:10:55):
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Speaker: As cephalopod populations and distributions change, of course, (01:10:57):
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Speaker: humans continue to harvest them. (01:11:01):
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Speaker: They're an important protein (01:11:03):
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Speaker: source in a lot of parts of the (01:11:04):
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Speaker: world. (01:11:05):
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Speaker: They are quite a challenging (01:11:05):
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Speaker: group to manage sustainably, (01:11:07):
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Speaker: because their populations change (01:11:09):
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Speaker: so rapidly that it's almost (01:11:11):
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Speaker: impossible to get a good (01:11:13):
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Speaker: estimate of biomass or abundance (01:11:14):
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Speaker: before you start fishing in any (01:11:17):
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Speaker: given season. (01:11:19):
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Speaker: So that leads to some challenges in managing them worldwide. (01:11:20):
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Speaker: And in some places, multiple overlapping species are fished (01:11:23):
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Speaker: and managed as a single fishery. (01:11:27):
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Speaker: So to tell us a little bit more about that, we've got PhD (01:11:28):
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Speaker: student Connor Wallace from the AUT Squid Squad. (01:11:31):
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Speaker: Kia ora koutou and hello everyone. (01:11:33):
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Speaker: My name is Connor and I'm also a (01:11:35):
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Speaker: doctoral candidate of Aut's (01:11:38):
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Speaker: awesome lab. (01:11:39):
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Speaker: One of the things that I'm most (01:11:41):
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Speaker: passionate about is (01:11:42):
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Speaker: conservation. (01:11:43):
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Speaker: And so I've come into cephalopod research with a bit of a (01:11:44):
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Speaker: different background from some of my peers. (01:11:47):
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Speaker: I completed a master of science (01:11:50):
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Speaker: project looking at viruses in (01:11:52):
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Speaker: New Zealand. (01:11:53):
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Speaker: Native parrots at Kakariki and (01:11:54):
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Speaker: Kakapo have done research (01:11:56):
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Speaker: identifying terrestrial (01:11:57):
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Speaker: invertebrates in a mammalian (01:11:58):
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Speaker: predator proof sanctuary and (01:12:00):
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Speaker: have worked to protect and (01:12:01):
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Speaker: monitor Pekapeka Toroa (01:12:02):
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Speaker: aotearoa's endemic long tailed (01:12:04):
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Speaker: bat. (01:12:06):
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Speaker: I've always found cephalopods (01:12:07):
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Speaker: fascinating and was looking for (01:12:08):
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Speaker: a PhD project that would allow (01:12:09):
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Speaker: me to combine that fascination (01:12:11):
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Speaker: with my conservation and species (01:12:12):
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Speaker: management background. (01:12:14):
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Speaker: Side note if you're pursuing biology ecology research, a lot (01:12:15):
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Speaker: of skills are transferable between different study (01:12:19):
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Speaker: organisms, so don't be afraid to change things up a bit and (01:12:21):
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Speaker: pursue the research that inspires you the most. (01:12:24):
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Speaker: Nowadays, I'm researching (01:12:27):
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Speaker: Aotearoa's arrow squids, two (01:12:28):
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Speaker: Amish triffids in the genus (01:12:30):
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Speaker: Notodoris. (01:12:31):
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Speaker: If you can picture a squid in your mind. (01:12:32):
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Speaker: These squids are very squid (01:12:34):
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Speaker: shaped squids with a torpedo (01:12:36):
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Speaker: shaped body and arrowhead shaped (01:12:37):
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Speaker: fins. (01:12:39):
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Speaker: The aim of my research is to improve our understanding of (01:12:40):
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Speaker: population structure, to improve the sustainability of New (01:12:42):
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Speaker: Zealand's squid fishery. (01:12:46):
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Speaker: This significant species for people in New Zealand we catch (01:12:47):
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Speaker: about thirty thousand five hundred tonnes per annum, which (01:12:50):
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Speaker: is worth roughly one hundred and forty million dollars per year (01:12:53):
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Speaker: and also ecologically significant as prey items for (01:12:56):
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Speaker: animals such as the long finned pilot whales and the endangered (01:12:59):
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Speaker: pancake or New Zealand sea lion. (01:13:02):
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Speaker: When we're looking at conservation and species (01:13:04):
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Speaker: management, one of our goals is to build the best picture we can (01:13:06):
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Speaker: of the life history of the species that we're interested (01:13:09):
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Speaker: in, the survival pressures it's under, and to understand how (01:13:12):
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Speaker: populations of the species are structured with fisheries. (01:13:15):
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Speaker: Population structure is super important. (01:13:19):
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Speaker: If you're fishing in one spot, thinking that the squid's in (01:13:21):
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Speaker: this area are only a small part of a larger population, and then (01:13:24):
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Speaker: it turns out that there isn't a larger population, but actually (01:13:27):
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Speaker: two completely separate ones. (01:13:30):
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Speaker: You could overharvest a population losing genetic (01:13:31):
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Speaker: diversity and collapsing a localized food web. (01:13:34):
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Speaker: Aotearoa's squids typically live up to a depth of about three (01:13:37):
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Speaker: hundred meters, and with deep sea animals like this, it can be (01:13:41):
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Speaker: really difficult for us to understand population structure. (01:13:44):
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Speaker: We can't directly observe how (01:13:47):
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Speaker: many squid are present in the (01:13:49):
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Speaker: environment. (01:13:50):
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Speaker: We can't attach GPS trackers to (01:13:51):
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Speaker: log the dispersal of individuals (01:13:52):
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Speaker: and measure population (01:13:54):
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Speaker: connectivity. (01:13:55):
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Speaker: Furthermore, the rapid generational cycles that we see (01:13:56):
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Speaker: in many squids can make it hard to assess biomass. (01:13:59):
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Speaker: Fortunately, genetic tools offer (01:14:02):
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Speaker: a possible way forward, and so (01:14:03):
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Speaker: this is what I'm pursuing with (01:14:05):
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Speaker: my research. (01:14:06):
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Speaker: Genetics techniques can provide (01:14:07):
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Speaker: clear measures of population (01:14:08):
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Speaker: relatedness and don't rely on (01:14:10):
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Speaker: the observation of live (01:14:12):
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Speaker: specimens. (01:14:13):
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Speaker: A small tissue clip can be all (01:14:13):
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Speaker: the biological sample that you (01:14:15):
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Speaker: need. (01:14:17):
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Speaker: I'm fortunate to be working with a wealth of squid tissue samples (01:14:17):
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Speaker: collected by Earth Sciences New Zealand, and I'm using a (01:14:20):
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Speaker: combination of microsatellites and single nucleotide (01:14:23):
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Speaker: polymorphisms, two different genetic markers to look at how (01:14:26):
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Speaker: related to each other. (01:14:29):
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Speaker: Arrow squid are around Aotearoa New Zealand. (01:14:30):
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Speaker: Ideally, with this relatedness data, we'll get a picture of (01:14:33):
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Speaker: where populations stop and start and how they mix. (01:14:36):
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Speaker: One of the topics that's been very interesting to see develop (01:14:39):
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Speaker: across the last few cephalopod conferences is what kinds of (01:14:42):
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Speaker: technology people are using to study these animals. (01:14:46):
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Speaker: They don't lend themselves well to being studied in a lab, (01:14:49):
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Speaker: especially if you're studying deep sea ones. (01:14:53):
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Speaker: People are making some very interesting behavioral (01:14:55):
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Speaker: observations in the wild, and then some of those species can (01:14:57):
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Speaker: be studied in situ by bringing them into the lab. (01:15:01):
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Speaker: But it remains pretty challenging. (01:15:03):
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Speaker: You know, people are doing things like for the octopus (01:15:05):
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Speaker: species that's known to hunt together with a group of fish. (01:15:08):
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Speaker: Someone has now developed a (01:15:11):
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Speaker: robot fish whose behavior they (01:15:12):
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Speaker: can control to test how the (01:15:14):
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Speaker: other members of the Co hunting (01:15:16):
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Speaker: group respond to different (01:15:18):
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Speaker: prompts given by this robot (01:15:19):
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Speaker: fish. (01:15:21):
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Speaker: Wow, that was one of my favorites. (01:15:22):
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Speaker: Actually, the robot grouper is pretty cool looking. (01:15:24):
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Speaker: I like the interspecies collaborations. (01:15:26):
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Speaker: Mhm. (01:15:29):
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Speaker: I mean, I know you need a robot fish. (01:15:29):
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Speaker: Like as soon as I saw that I was (01:15:31):
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Speaker: like, oh, I know somebody who (01:15:32):
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Speaker: needs that. (01:15:33):
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Speaker: People are doing some really amazing stuff with technology. (01:15:34):
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Speaker: We have people who are able to (01:15:37):
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Speaker: map the development and cell (01:15:38):
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Speaker: migration within embryos and (01:15:41):
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Speaker: like track where different parts (01:15:43):
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Speaker: of the early embryo end up (01:15:45):
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Speaker: watching the cells migrate in (01:15:48):
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Speaker: real time by coloring them (01:15:49):
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Speaker: differently and seeing across (01:15:50):
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Speaker: the first couple of days of (01:15:52):
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Speaker: development. (01:15:53):
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Speaker: Which parts of the early eight cell stage turn into which parts (01:15:54):
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Speaker: of the brain and body? (01:15:58):
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Speaker: And in terms of studying them in (01:15:59):
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Speaker: situ, people are making advances (01:16:00):
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Speaker: in how to study these animals in (01:16:03):
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Speaker: their natural environment as (01:16:04):
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Speaker: well. (01:16:05):
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Speaker: There was a cool talk about tagging three different species (01:16:06):
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Speaker: of animals that live within a Spanish MPA, and monitoring (01:16:09):
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Speaker: using a moored array of hydrophones, how those different (01:16:14):
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Speaker: species movements were tracking in real time. (01:16:18):
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Speaker: So I'm going to pass over to Tony Sanchez Marquez. (01:16:20):
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Speaker: My name is Antonio Sanchez. (01:16:23):
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Speaker: I am a PhD candidate at the (01:16:25):
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Speaker: Institute of Physics del Mar in (01:16:27):
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Speaker: Barcelona, Spain, and I'm (01:16:29):
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Speaker: currently working with Deep-Sea, (01:16:30):
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Speaker: especially deep sea marine (01:16:33):
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Speaker: protected areas. (01:16:34):
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Speaker: And in this case, we are trying to get to understand how (01:16:35):
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Speaker: different species use the territory or the marine (01:16:39):
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Speaker: protected areas themselves. (01:16:42):
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Speaker: So we are doing some kind of tagging methods to evaluate how (01:16:44):
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Speaker: they use the territory. (01:16:48):
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Speaker: You actually have got a setup (01:16:50):
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Speaker: where you're able to do some (01:16:51):
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Speaker: experimental work, which is (01:16:53):
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Speaker: really nice. (01:16:54):
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Speaker: So can you tell us a little bit about the study area where (01:16:54):
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Speaker: you've been working in the three species you're looking at? (01:16:57):
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Speaker: We've been working in an empa near Barcelona. (01:16:59):
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Speaker: It ranges from three hundred and twenty five meters to five (01:17:02):
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Speaker: hundred and fifty, more or less. (01:17:06):
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Speaker: The area is characterized by muddy bottoms. (01:17:07):
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Speaker: It doesn't have any, like, hard structures for the individuals (01:17:10):
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Speaker: maybe to lay eggs on or for corals to build themselves, (01:17:14):
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Speaker: because the area has been deeply impacted by trawling activities. (01:17:18):
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Speaker: So all these hard structures like rocks or other things have (01:17:23):
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Speaker: been removed from the area. (01:17:28):
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Speaker: And you're interested in three (01:17:29):
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Speaker: particular species that are (01:17:30):
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Speaker: co-occurring there. (01:17:32):
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Speaker: So who are they? (01:17:32):
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Speaker: We are working with Nephro (01:17:33):
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Speaker: norvegicus, which is the Norway (01:17:35):
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Speaker: lobster. (01:17:37):
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Speaker: This is like the main focus of (01:17:37):
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Speaker: my group during the last maybe (01:17:39):
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Speaker: twenty years. (01:17:42):
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Speaker: And now we are kind of expanding. (01:17:43):
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Speaker: So this species is an ecological engineering. (01:17:45):
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Speaker: So they provide a little bit of movement in the sediment. (01:17:48):
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Speaker: They construct burrows and they give a little bit of three (01:17:51):
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Speaker: dimensionality to the area. (01:17:55):
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Speaker: And on top of that, we also (01:17:56):
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Speaker: wanted to study two of their (01:17:58):
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Speaker: predators. (01:17:59):
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Speaker: In this case we're working with the small spotted catshark, (01:18:00):
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Speaker: which is a highly mobile demersal shark in comparison (01:18:04):
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Speaker: with the nephrops, for example. (01:18:08):
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Speaker: And on the other hand, we were (01:18:10):
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Speaker: working with a little octopus or (01:18:12):
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Speaker: a curled octopus, which is an (01:18:15):
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Speaker: octopus that covers themselves (01:18:17):
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Speaker: in sand doesn't move that much (01:18:19):
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Speaker: in comparison with the shark, (01:18:20):
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Speaker: and they also prey on the (01:18:22):
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Speaker: lobster. (01:18:24):
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Speaker: And it's quite interesting because we selected this species (01:18:24):
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Speaker: based on the phylogeny of the species, as we wanted a wide (01:18:28):
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Speaker: range of coverage. (01:18:31):
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Speaker: We also wanted to work with atlas fish like conger or (01:18:33):
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Speaker: European conger eel. (01:18:37):
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Speaker: But in this case, we were not (01:18:38):
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Speaker: able to catch any individuals (01:18:40):
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Speaker: during the experimental (01:18:42):
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Speaker: trawling. (01:18:43):
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Speaker: We also tried to catch them with (01:18:43):
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Speaker: traps, but it was highly time (01:18:45):
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Speaker: consuming, so we dropped that (01:18:49):
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Speaker: species. (01:18:51):
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Speaker: So those are three really (01:18:52):
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Speaker: different types of animals, (01:18:53):
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Speaker: right. (01:18:55):
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Speaker: And really different considerations for tagging. (01:18:55):
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Speaker: So you've got a shark, a lobster and an octopus. (01:18:58):
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Speaker: And you have managed to figure out how to catch tag and then (01:19:01):
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Speaker: track what they're doing. (01:19:07):
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Speaker: So can you tell us a little bit about the tagging and tracking (01:19:07):
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Speaker: methods for tagging methods? (01:19:10):
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Speaker: We work based on previous (01:19:13):
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Speaker: literature on the topic, so the (01:19:14):
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Speaker: most obvious case would be the (01:19:17):
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Speaker: lobster is the main focus of (01:19:19):
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Speaker: study. (01:19:21):
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Speaker: So in this case we conducted an experiment some years back in a (01:19:21):
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Speaker: similar area, in this case in the northern part of Catalonia, (01:19:25):
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Speaker: which would be Palamos. (01:19:29):
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Speaker: Here we tracked fifteen individuals, I think, and the (01:19:30):
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Speaker: idea is that as they are highly mobile, they use their tail. (01:19:33):
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Speaker: So we have to tag them on the cephalothorax and with a little (01:19:36):
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Speaker: bit of epoxy to secure the tag and also a bridle. (01:19:41):
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Speaker: So it would be like a little backpack which they carry. (01:19:45):
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Speaker: And the good part is that when they molt, they leave the tags. (01:19:48):
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Speaker: So we are not giving this individual an assured death to (01:19:53):
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Speaker: maybe problems shedding or things like that. (01:19:57):
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Speaker: They usually shed once per year. (01:19:59):
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Speaker: In the case of the size of the animals we tag. (01:20:02):
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Speaker: So we are sure that the species or the individuals will continue (01:20:05):
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Speaker: with their life cycles. (01:20:09):
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Speaker: In the case of the of the (01:20:10):
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Speaker: charts, we can catch them easily (01:20:12):
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Speaker: and we can do a little surgical (01:20:14):
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Speaker: procedure. (01:20:17):
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Speaker: So we we did a little cut in their stomachs. (01:20:18):
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Speaker: We introduced the tag, which is like a would you say size wise (01:20:20):
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Speaker: we give them two suture points. (01:20:25):
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Speaker: The chance of survival after the (01:20:27):
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Speaker: procedure is nearly one hundred (01:20:29):
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Speaker: percent. (01:20:30):
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Speaker: And finally, in the case of the octopus, this was the trickiest (01:20:31):
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Speaker: one because we know they don't have a hard patch. (01:20:33):
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Speaker: And in this case, we based our method on some previous studies (01:20:36):
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Speaker: that were conducted in Galicia. (01:20:41):
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Speaker: I think in this case they try to (01:20:44):
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Speaker: type individuals in different (01:20:46):
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Speaker: areas. (01:20:47):
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Speaker: The thing is that when they clean themselves, they usually (01:20:48):
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Speaker: grab anything that is not theirs and start pulling. (01:20:51):
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Speaker: So first, first we have an animal that's really squishy and (01:20:54):
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Speaker: soft, and second, an animal that's very dexterous and good (01:20:57):
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Speaker: at grooming itself. (01:21:00):
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Speaker: So, you know, this is building through different layers of very (01:21:01):
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Speaker: challenging tagging technology. (01:21:05):
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Speaker: And in this case, the solution (01:21:07):
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Speaker: was to tag them in the left arm (01:21:09):
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Speaker: number three in the near the (01:21:11):
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Speaker: base. (01:21:13):
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Speaker: And they wouldn't have any (01:21:14):
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Speaker: problems using that arm in this (01:21:15):
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Speaker: case, putting it in near the (01:21:18):
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Speaker: base, it makes it harder for (01:21:19):
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Speaker: them to grab onto it and try to (01:21:21):
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Speaker: pull a. The lifetime of the tag (01:21:23):
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Speaker: would be like between three and (01:21:27):
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Speaker: six months. (01:21:29):
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Speaker: So you've got three really (01:21:30):
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Speaker: different benthic species living (01:21:31):
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Speaker: in this soft sediment (01:21:33):
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Speaker: environment and an array of (01:21:34):
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Speaker: moored hydrophones. (01:21:37):
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Speaker: And they I think you said they have overlapping ranges. (01:21:38):
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Speaker: So you've got pretty good (01:21:40):
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Speaker: consistent coverage through your (01:21:41):
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Speaker: study area. (01:21:43):
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Speaker: What patterns are you seeing in this case? (01:21:43):
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Speaker: We had some previous studies on nephrops. (01:21:46):
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Speaker: So this species is highly (01:21:48):
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Speaker: territorial and also construct (01:21:49):
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Speaker: burrows. (01:21:51):
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Speaker: So we expected them at the (01:21:52):
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Speaker: beginning of the experiment (01:21:54):
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Speaker: after the release procedure for (01:21:55):
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Speaker: them to try to establish (01:21:57):
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Speaker: themselves. (01:21:59):
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Speaker: Some of them will leave, some of them will establish properly, as (01:21:59):
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Speaker: there are other lobsters already living in the area. (01:22:03):
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Speaker: So that's one thing. (01:22:05):
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Speaker: And later we see that these individuals, once they establish (01:22:06):
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Speaker: they don't move that much. (01:22:09):
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Speaker: So they would be within the three species the least mobile. (01:22:11):
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Speaker: They will be territorial, they would exhibit the most site (01:22:15):
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Speaker: fidelity of the three. (01:22:18):
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Speaker: Yeah, they'll stay the most localized. (01:22:19):
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Speaker: Exactly. (01:22:21):
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Speaker: In the case of the of the (01:22:21):
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Speaker: octopus, we observe that they (01:22:23):
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Speaker: move way more than the lobster, (01:22:26):
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Speaker: unfortunately. (01:22:28):
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Speaker: Do they stay within the study area or did some of them exit (01:22:28):
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Speaker: the study area? (01:22:31):
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Speaker: Some of them did exit, some of them stayed. (01:22:32):
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Speaker: And but as we talked, I think fourteen individuals, most of (01:22:34):
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Speaker: them left the area between three and five days, but they stayed (01:22:37):
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Speaker: the whole study period, which lasted six months. (01:22:41):
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Speaker: In this case, for for them, (01:22:44):
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Speaker: because it's the lifetime of the (01:22:45):
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Speaker: of the Italian and finally the, (01:22:47):
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Speaker: the sharks. (01:22:50):
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Speaker: They were the most mobile of all, as we cannot encapsulate (01:22:50):
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Speaker: the whole MPA with a little proportion like one quarter of (01:22:53):
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Speaker: the of the area, we observe how they go in and out of the array. (01:22:57):
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Speaker: Although they move a lot, they (01:23:03):
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Speaker: are also exhibit this kind of (01:23:04):
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Speaker: ability. (01:23:07):
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Speaker: Okay. (01:23:08):
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Speaker: So they have they they move around a bit, but maybe they (01:23:08):
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Speaker: have sort of a home territory. (01:23:11):
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Speaker: It's just a bit larger and they (01:23:12):
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Speaker: probably overlap between (01:23:14):
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Speaker: individuals. (01:23:15):
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Speaker: It's not like in the case of the (01:23:16):
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Speaker: lobster, where you have one (01:23:17):
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Speaker: individual which would be (01:23:19):
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Speaker: focused on a little area, in (01:23:20):
undefined

Speaker: this case the individuals common (01:23:21):
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Speaker: goal, they not exclude the other (01:23:23):
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Speaker: individuals from their (01:23:25):
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Speaker: territory. (01:23:26):
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Speaker: This technology allows you to position the individuals if (01:23:27):
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Speaker: three or more receptors detect the same signal. (01:23:31):
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Speaker: If we are working, usually in shallower areas like twenty (01:23:34):
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Speaker: thirty meters, the data quality is very high, so you can track (01:23:38):
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Speaker: individuals very precisely during a long time periods. (01:23:41):
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Speaker: And you can also do these kind of studies where if two (01:23:44):
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Speaker: individuals get too close to each other, you can like to (01:23:47):
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Speaker: establish an interaction, but our data has not that quality. (01:23:50):
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Speaker: So we weren't able to do this kind of procedures. (01:23:54):
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Speaker: How far through the study are you? (01:23:58):
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Speaker: You've finished all of your data collection now or do you have (01:23:59):
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Speaker: more seasons coming up? (01:24:01):
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Speaker: Yes, we have finished all the collections. (01:24:02):
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Speaker: What I presented of kayak was (01:24:04):
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Speaker: one of the chapters of my (01:24:07):
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Speaker: thesis, first six months of the (01:24:08):
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Speaker: study in December twenty twenty (01:24:10):
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Speaker: three. (01:24:11):
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Speaker: When we collected this data, we (01:24:12):
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Speaker: also redeployed them and we also (01:24:13):
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Speaker: redeployed another seventeen (01:24:15):
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Speaker: videos. (01:24:17):
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Speaker: In this case, we successfully tagged three European countries. (01:24:17):
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Speaker: We also tried tagging some other bony fishes. (01:24:21):
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Speaker: Unfortunately, we didn't get some quality data from them, so (01:24:24):
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Speaker: we are not sure if it's related to mortality or because they (01:24:27):
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Speaker: left the area. (01:24:32):
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Speaker: But yeah, the following study that I will do will be working (01:24:32):
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Speaker: with the whole dataset. (01:24:36):
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Speaker: So it would be a one year period. (01:24:38):
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Speaker: And we would like to see if there are changes in the (01:24:40):
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Speaker: different seasons, or maybe mostly in how they use the (01:24:42):
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Speaker: territory, their activity patterns, if they shift, (01:24:45):
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Speaker: depending on the light hours or other parameters, the activity (01:24:48):
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Speaker: patterns of the species based on the movement data that we (01:24:52):
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Speaker: collected doesn't match with was previously known because in this (01:24:56):
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Speaker: area there's a lot of trolling. (01:25:01):
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Speaker: They did some studies, some which were like short rows in (01:25:03):
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Speaker: different hours of the day. (01:25:07):
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Speaker: So we know when some species are more available than others. (01:25:08):
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Speaker: We would like to see how these changes during this whole year (01:25:12):
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Speaker: period, in this case, this trolling experiments were done (01:25:16):
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Speaker: within a month. (01:25:20):
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Speaker: So maybe in this case they (01:25:21):
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Speaker: touched just a little (01:25:23):
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Speaker: variability within the the whole (01:25:25):
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Speaker: year. (01:25:27):
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Speaker: So so within a period short time (01:25:29):
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Speaker: period within a particular (01:25:31):
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Speaker: season. (01:25:32):
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Speaker: And they only captured that particular seasonality. (01:25:32):
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Speaker: So we have to look into that (01:25:35):
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Speaker: thing, and it would give us a (01:25:37):
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Speaker: lot of information about the (01:25:38):
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Speaker: fisheries and the species of the (01:25:40):
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Speaker: area. (01:25:41):
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Speaker: So it was interesting when you (01:25:42):
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Speaker: when you go and you're able to (01:25:43):
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Speaker: collect a larger data set, and (01:25:44):
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Speaker: that contradicts some little (01:25:45):
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Speaker: snapshot that was the basis for (01:25:47):
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Speaker: all of the previous (01:25:49):
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Speaker: understanding. (01:25:50):
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Speaker: So yet another case of you start to look into it and it turns out (01:25:51):
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Speaker: it's of course way more complicated than we thought. (01:25:54):
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Speaker: Yes, exactly. (01:25:57):
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Speaker: Yeah, that's kind of the motto of deep sea stuff as well. (01:25:59):
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Speaker: Well, it's more complicated than we thought. (01:26:01):
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Speaker: Oh, fantastic. (01:26:03):
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Speaker: Thank you so much, Anthony, for (01:26:04):
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Speaker: having a chat with me about your (01:26:05):
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Speaker: research. (01:26:06):
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Speaker: And then, of course, we know (01:26:07):
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Speaker: that these animals are very (01:26:08):
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Speaker: charismatic. (01:26:09):
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Speaker: So one of their most endearing (01:26:10):
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Speaker: things to me, I think, is the (01:26:13):
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Speaker: fact that they are have this (01:26:14):
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Speaker: amazing potential for science (01:26:16):
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Speaker: communication. (01:26:17):
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Speaker: They're great poster children (01:26:18):
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Speaker: for getting people excited about (01:26:19):
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Speaker: the ocean. (01:26:21):
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Speaker: They're one of these groups (01:26:22):
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Speaker: where you don't really need to (01:26:23):
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Speaker: embellish how amazing they are (01:26:24):
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Speaker: at all. (01:26:26):
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Speaker: You're just kind of a conduit for telling people about all (01:26:26):
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Speaker: this cool stuff that these animals just do. (01:26:29):
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Speaker: They're amazing and you don't need to make anything up about (01:26:31):
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Speaker: them to be amazing. (01:26:34):
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Speaker: You just have to tell people the truth. (01:26:35):
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Speaker: We have a couple of really impressive science communicators (01:26:37):
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Speaker: in our community. (01:26:39):
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Speaker: Someone who was talking about the way that the chromatophores (01:26:40):
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Speaker: function, which is Maturana, he's been working on them for a (01:26:45):
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Speaker: long time and actually runs a YouTube channel called Doctor (01:26:48):
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Speaker: Nemo, which has some great cephalopod explainer videos on (01:26:51):
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Speaker: it and a variety of other interesting videos as well. (01:26:54):
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Speaker: So follow that link at your own peril. (01:26:58):
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Speaker: But of course, one of the leading cephalopod science (01:27:00):
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Speaker: communicators worldwide is Doctor Sarah McAnulty, who's the (01:27:03):
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Speaker: executive director of Skype. (01:27:06):
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Speaker: A scientist, Sarah gave a great workshop about cephalopods and (01:27:07):
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Speaker: science communication, and so I asked her to have a chat to me (01:27:11):
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Speaker: for the podcast as well. (01:27:14):
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Speaker: Welcome, sir. (01:27:15):
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Speaker: Thanks for having a chat with me. (01:27:16):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, thanks for having me on. (01:27:17):
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Speaker: Can you tell us a little bit about things like Skype, a (01:27:18):
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Speaker: scientist and murals and art nights and all of the really (01:27:22):
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Speaker: cool different levels, like stuff you do? (01:27:26):
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Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. (01:27:29):
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Speaker: So I run a nonprofit. (01:27:29):
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Speaker: We're called Skype, a Scientists were based in Philadelphia in (01:27:31):
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Speaker: the United States. (01:27:34):
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Speaker: And we do a lot of different (01:27:35):
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Speaker: things to try to connect people (01:27:37):
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Speaker: with science. (01:27:39):
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Speaker: One of the things we do is match scientists with classrooms and (01:27:39):
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Speaker: scout troops and libraries. (01:27:43):
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Speaker: Any group of people that would like to speak with a scientist. (01:27:45):
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Speaker: We want to lower the barriers of access to getting experts, (01:27:48):
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Speaker: particularly scientists, connected with people. (01:27:51):
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Speaker: So we offer that program for free. (01:27:54):
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Speaker: We serve like, you know, four (01:27:56):
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Speaker: thousand to five thousand groups (01:27:57):
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Speaker: a year. (01:27:59):
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Speaker: And that program has been running since twenty seventeen. (01:27:59):
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Speaker: In addition to the virtual connections that we make, we (01:28:02):
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Speaker: also try to connect people with science offline, mostly in (01:28:05):
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Speaker: person in Philadelphia and a couple other cities. (01:28:09):
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Speaker: And so those projects are pretty art forward because we're trying (01:28:11):
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Speaker: to reach a population that is not already science interested. (01:28:15):
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Speaker: I was finding that connecting with people online was mostly (01:28:20):
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Speaker: attracting people who are already really into science, or (01:28:24):
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Speaker: at least open to science. (01:28:27):
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Speaker: Think of themselves as science (01:28:29):
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Speaker: interested, and my goal is to (01:28:30):
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Speaker: reach people who are are not in (01:28:32):
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Speaker: that category. (01:28:34):
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Speaker: So we do this using, um, murals, street art, art, forward nights, (01:28:35):
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Speaker: trying to attract artists to tackle, communicating on some of (01:28:40):
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Speaker: the big issues that humanity is facing today like climate (01:28:44):
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Speaker: change, the biodiversity crisis, this sort of thing. (01:28:47):
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Speaker: And these projects reach people who, uh, definitely are not (01:28:50):
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Speaker: identifying themselves as science interested, and some of (01:28:54):
undefined

Speaker: them attract a mix. (01:28:57):
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Speaker: So for the murals, we do community mural projects. (01:28:59):
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Speaker: So we really involve either neighbor neighbors associations (01:29:02):
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Speaker: or, um, other community groups in the city and collaborate with (01:29:06):
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Speaker: them on those projects. (01:29:11):
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Speaker: We hire local artists to design (01:29:12):
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Speaker: the murals and then host (01:29:15):
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Speaker: community paint days to get (01:29:16):
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Speaker: people involved. (01:29:18):
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Speaker: Those murals have mostly been (01:29:19):
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Speaker: on, um, the biodiversity of the (01:29:21):
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Speaker: area that we're making the mural (01:29:23):
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Speaker: in. (01:29:25):
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Speaker: So it's super relevant to the people in the neighborhood. (01:29:25):
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Speaker: And we have neighbors paint the wall with us. (01:29:28):
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Speaker: So they really have a vested (01:29:30):
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Speaker: interest in the finished work (01:29:32):
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Speaker: because they can say they (01:29:34):
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Speaker: painted it. (01:29:35):
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Speaker: The scope of the different (01:29:36):
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Speaker: projects that you do is so cool, (01:29:37):
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Speaker: because some of them are so wide (01:29:39):
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Speaker: reaching, but others are really (01:29:40):
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Speaker: focused on that one on one (01:29:41):
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Speaker: connection. (01:29:42):
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Speaker: And I think that's so important (01:29:43):
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Speaker: in an age where a lot of people (01:29:45):
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Speaker: don't understand or don't trust (01:29:47):
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Speaker: science, you're not sure where (01:29:49):
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Speaker: to find reliable information (01:29:50):
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Speaker: online. (01:29:52):
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Speaker: You know, having someone where you feel like they're providing (01:29:52):
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Speaker: reliable information and are forming that personal connection (01:29:55):
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Speaker: with you is also super important, especially right now. (01:29:57):
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Speaker: Yeah, completely. (01:30:00):
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Speaker: And so part of that is why I (01:30:01):
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Speaker: think it's really, really (01:30:02):
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Speaker: critical that many scientists (01:30:03):
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Speaker: get involved. (01:30:06):
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Speaker: I think a lot of times people see scientists like, you know, (01:30:07):
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Speaker: Bill Nye and these like Ali Ward, even like people who are (01:30:10):
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Speaker: communicating on behalf of science, who reach, you know, (01:30:14):
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Speaker: millions and millions of people. (01:30:17):
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Speaker: And they might think their (01:30:18):
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Speaker: impact that they could have is (01:30:20):
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Speaker: just not worth it, not worth (01:30:21):
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Speaker: their time. (01:30:23):
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Speaker: But I think right now, particularly where we are with (01:30:23):
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Speaker: siloing of culture on social media and and etc. like we (01:30:26):
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Speaker: really don't have time to waste not communicating and connecting (01:30:31):
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Speaker: with each other at the community level, at the neighbor level. (01:30:35):
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Speaker: Like we really need all hands on deck right now. (01:30:37):
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Speaker: Um, we're out of time to leave to other people. (01:30:40):
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Speaker: And so for because we've got a (01:30:44):
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Speaker: fair amount of early career deep (01:30:46):
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Speaker: sea and marine people listening (01:30:48):
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Speaker: to the podcast, do you have any (01:30:50):
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Speaker: advice for people early in their (01:30:51):
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Speaker: career wanting to develop their (01:30:53):
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Speaker: skills, and at what point can (01:30:54):
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Speaker: you feel that you're qualified (01:30:56):
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Speaker: enough to do something like (01:30:58):
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Speaker: Skype a scientist, or talk to (01:31:00):
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Speaker: other people about the cool (01:31:02):
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Speaker: stuff that you're learning (01:31:03):
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Speaker: about? (01:31:04):
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Speaker: Good question. (01:31:05):
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Speaker: I think, um, one nice thing (01:31:05):
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Speaker: about having a lot of science (01:31:07):
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Speaker: interested people on social (01:31:09):
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Speaker: media is that social media is (01:31:10):
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Speaker: like a good place to get your (01:31:12):
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Speaker: practice in. (01:31:14):
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Speaker: You can see what works and what doesn't on blue Sky for sure. (01:31:15):
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Speaker: If you say anything that's not completely accurate, uh, or if (01:31:19):
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Speaker: you oversimplify, probably people are going to come in and (01:31:22):
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Speaker: correct you so that for, for better or worse. (01:31:24):
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Speaker: So practicing on social media I (01:31:27):
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Speaker: think is a good start as far as (01:31:29):
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Speaker: when you can sign up to be a (01:31:31):
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Speaker: scientist, volunteer for Skype a (01:31:33):
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Speaker: scientist. (01:31:34):
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Speaker: If you are working in a lab, you (01:31:35):
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Speaker: already have an undergrad (01:31:37):
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Speaker: degree, and you're either (01:31:38):
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Speaker: working in a lab after your (01:31:40):
undefined

Speaker: undergrad or you're pursuing (01:31:41):
undefined

Speaker: graduate school. (01:31:43):
undefined

Speaker: That's when we tag you in to talk with classrooms. (01:31:44):
undefined

Speaker: But science communication can (01:31:47):
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Speaker: happen in a lot of different (01:31:49):
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Speaker: ways. (01:31:50):
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Speaker: Like I, I don't think that science communication right now (01:31:51):
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Speaker: can be limited to scientists or even professional science (01:31:54):
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Speaker: communicators, for sure, because we need more people to engage on (01:31:58):
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Speaker: climate change and the biodiversity crisis immediately. (01:32:03):
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Speaker: So once you know what the (01:32:06):
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Speaker: important things for you to do (01:32:10):
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Speaker: are, um, whether it's, you know, (01:32:12):
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Speaker: changing your personal approach (01:32:14):
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Speaker: to climate change, CO2 (01:32:16):
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Speaker: reductions or like, who to vote (01:32:18):
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Speaker: for, that's going to help with (01:32:19):
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Speaker: this stuff, or like how you're (01:32:21):
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Speaker: going to plant stuff in your (01:32:22):
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Speaker: backyard, Like there's so many (01:32:24):
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Speaker: things that all of us can and (01:32:26):
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Speaker: need to be doing to address this (01:32:27):
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Speaker: problem. (01:32:29):
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Speaker: And so we don't have time for (01:32:29):
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Speaker: you to wait to get a PhD before (01:32:31):
undefined

Speaker: you start talking with your (01:32:32):
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Speaker: neighbors about native plants or (01:32:33):
undefined

Speaker: whatever. (01:32:36):
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Speaker: So a lot of times, I think the best way to practice science (01:32:36):
undefined

Speaker: communication is just doing it. (01:32:39):
undefined

Speaker: And maybe you won't always get it right one hundred percent of (01:32:41):
undefined

Speaker: the time, and you shouldn't expect yourself to, because (01:32:45):
undefined

Speaker: we're all learning. (01:32:47):
undefined

Speaker: Just like, you know, artists aren't built in a day like (01:32:49):
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Speaker: you're going to make bad doodles on the past. (01:32:52):
undefined

Speaker: And that's probably also true for science communication. (01:32:54):
undefined

Speaker: You ran a little session on (01:32:57):
undefined

Speaker: science communication at kayak, (01:32:59):
undefined

Speaker: which I thought was really (01:33:01):
undefined

Speaker: great, and we had a range of (01:33:02):
undefined

Speaker: different career stage people in (01:33:03):
undefined

Speaker: the room. (01:33:04):
undefined

Speaker: But I wanted to pick up because you were just talking about (01:33:05):
undefined

Speaker: having those one on one conversations on a really useful (01:33:07):
undefined

Speaker: pointer that you provided. (01:33:10):
undefined

Speaker: Right? (01:33:11):
undefined

Speaker: So we talked about this thing (01:33:12):
undefined

Speaker: called the empathy sandwich, (01:33:13):
undefined

Speaker: which I'll get you to explain in (01:33:15):
undefined

Speaker: a second. (01:33:16):
undefined

Speaker: But I think particularly for (01:33:16):
undefined

Speaker: deep sea stuff where there's so (01:33:18):
undefined

Speaker: much misinformation and people (01:33:20):
undefined

Speaker: are really fascinated by it, but (01:33:21):
undefined

Speaker: there is a lot of misperceptions (01:33:23):
undefined

Speaker: about it. (01:33:25):
undefined

Speaker: Can you give us a synopsis of (01:33:26):
undefined

Speaker: what you suggest when you're (01:33:28):
undefined

Speaker: confronted with someone who has (01:33:29):
undefined

Speaker: a piece of patently false (01:33:31):
undefined

Speaker: information, but you still want (01:33:33):
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Speaker: to help them and make a (01:33:34):
undefined

Speaker: connection? (01:33:35):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, this happens in so many different ways. (01:33:36):
undefined

Speaker: When you're communicating science, you hear people say, (01:33:38):
undefined

Speaker: some of the wildest stuff you've ever heard, like whether it's an (01:33:41):
undefined

Speaker: AI generated piece of misinformation or a fossil fuel (01:33:43):
undefined

Speaker: company generated, there's lots of nonsense out there. (01:33:46):
undefined

Speaker: And what you don't want to do is hit somebody that you're talking (01:33:49):
undefined

Speaker: with with like a well, actually, because that can really shut (01:33:53):
undefined

Speaker: down the conversation. (01:33:57):
undefined

Speaker: And, um, we need to make sure people are open to listening to (01:33:58):
undefined

Speaker: what we say going forward. (01:34:01):
undefined

Speaker: So here's what I generally try to do. (01:34:03):
undefined

Speaker: The empathy sandwich starts and ends with positive feelings and (01:34:06):
undefined

Speaker: affirmations between you and the person that you're talking with. (01:34:10):
undefined

Speaker: What you can start with, just find something in what they said (01:34:13):
undefined

Speaker: that you can agree with. (01:34:16):
undefined

Speaker: And when we're talking about (01:34:17):
undefined

Speaker: deep sea stuff, maybe the thing (01:34:18):
undefined

Speaker: that you agree with is like, (01:34:20):
undefined

Speaker: yeah, aren't anglerfish so (01:34:21):
undefined

Speaker: completely cool? (01:34:23):
undefined

Speaker: And then after you have this (01:34:24):
undefined

Speaker: like, yeah, this is so amazing, (01:34:26):
undefined

Speaker: this thing that we both love, (01:34:28):
undefined

Speaker: then you can hit them with the (01:34:29):
undefined

Speaker: actual information that you need (01:34:31):
undefined

Speaker: to correct. (01:34:32):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Anglerfish are so cool. (01:34:33):
undefined

Speaker: But you know, it's crazy. (01:34:35):
undefined

Speaker: Like, this is actually the, the (01:34:35):
undefined

Speaker: thing that is real that they're (01:34:38):
undefined

Speaker: only about the size of a (01:34:39):
undefined

Speaker: baseball or even smaller or (01:34:41):
undefined

Speaker: whatever. (01:34:43):
undefined

Speaker: And then you can end it with (01:34:43):
undefined

Speaker: another affirmation that you you (01:34:46):
undefined

Speaker: both share values you both agree (01:34:48):
undefined

Speaker: with something like, it's so (01:34:50):
undefined

Speaker: important for us to tell more (01:34:52):
undefined

Speaker: people about how amazing these (01:34:54):
undefined

Speaker: animals are. (01:34:55):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: And helps them come away from that with a positive taste in (01:34:56):
undefined

Speaker: their mouth and increased enthusiasm for whatever it was (01:34:59):
undefined

Speaker: that you were talking about. (01:35:02):
undefined

undefined

undefined

Speaker: Like they were shut down by the (01:35:05):
undefined

Speaker: scientist who was smarter than (01:35:06):
undefined

Speaker: you and corrected, you know, (01:35:07):
undefined

Speaker: something that maybe your your (01:35:09):
undefined

Speaker: parent told you so you thought (01:35:11):
undefined

Speaker: it was really, you know, really (01:35:12):
undefined

Speaker: credible and. (01:35:14):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Or even maybe they were like (01:35:15):
undefined

Speaker: watching the Discovery Channel (01:35:16):
undefined

Speaker: and Discovery Channel used to be (01:35:17):
undefined

Speaker: reliable. (01:35:20):
undefined

Speaker: And now it's not right. (01:35:21):
undefined

Speaker: So you can't blame people for (01:35:22):
undefined

Speaker: getting duped by a lot of (01:35:25):
undefined

Speaker: nonsense. (01:35:27):
undefined

Speaker: It's important that you make people feel okay when you're (01:35:27):
undefined

Speaker: correcting the past. (01:35:32):
undefined

Speaker: It's wild because the deep sea is so cool in reality that you (01:35:33):
undefined

Speaker: really don't need to, like, punch it up at all. (01:35:36):
undefined

Speaker: And I see these, like, AI videos of monsters that are not real. (01:35:39):
undefined

Speaker: And I'm like, man, all you had to do was show the real animal. (01:35:43):
undefined

Speaker: Like, yeah, what we have is so much cooler than that. (01:35:46):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, for sure. (01:35:49):
undefined

Speaker: I always feel also like, especially with deep sea (01:35:50):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopods where I feel like they kind of sell themselves. (01:35:52):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Once you get people talking about deep sea cephalopods, you (01:35:55):
undefined

Speaker: don't really have to hype them up a lot. (01:35:57):
undefined

Speaker: For me, I'm just the conduit of information. (01:35:59):
undefined

Speaker: Like, I know this stuff, but I'm not inventing anything. (01:36:01):
undefined

Speaker: Or, like, creating some knowledge. (01:36:05):
undefined

Speaker: Sure, by, like, synthesizing data. (01:36:07):
undefined

Speaker: But really, it's all there. (01:36:09):
undefined

Speaker: And if you can share it with people like, that's enough. (01:36:11):
undefined

Speaker: You don't have to overemphasize anything or hyperbole it up. (01:36:13):
undefined

Speaker: It's there for the knowing, and it's cool enough already. (01:36:17):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, there's no exaggeration needed when you look at (01:36:19):
undefined

Speaker: Grimaldi, like that animal is already off the charts. (01:36:22):
undefined

Speaker: The puppet master squid. (01:36:25):
undefined

Speaker: The elbow squid. (01:36:27):
undefined

Speaker: Taningia. (01:36:27):
undefined

Speaker: There's so many. (01:36:28):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you so much, sir. (01:36:29):
undefined

Speaker: It was so great to hang out with you at kayak. (01:36:30):
undefined

Speaker: A little bit starstruck having a chat with Sarah. (01:36:32):
undefined

Speaker: That's very cool. (01:36:34):
undefined

Speaker: We mentioned Skype, a scientist and the Eel advent calendar on (01:36:35):
undefined

Speaker: the last episode. (01:36:39):
undefined

Speaker: Doing some great, great work. (01:36:40):
undefined

Speaker: Always thinking outside the box, (01:36:42):
undefined

Speaker: always looking at new ways of (01:36:43):
undefined

Speaker: engaging with people and doing (01:36:44):
undefined

Speaker: science communication in fun and (01:36:46):
undefined

Speaker: engaging ways. (01:36:48):
undefined

Speaker: Because science isn't boring. (01:36:49):
undefined

Speaker: It's amazing. (01:36:50):
undefined

Speaker: We just have to sometimes talk (01:36:51):
undefined

Speaker: quite dryly, and some of us (01:36:52):
undefined

Speaker: forget how to talk like people (01:36:53):
undefined

Speaker: after that. (01:36:55):
undefined

Speaker: That was some of her her really valuable advice how to keep (01:36:55):
undefined

Speaker: people on side, even if you have to correct them gently. (01:36:59):
undefined

Speaker: But that has shown that they are seeking knowledge. (01:37:02):
undefined

Speaker: You just have to be the better source of knowledge and offer (01:37:04):
undefined

Speaker: them another, another tract. (01:37:08):
undefined

Speaker: We went diving together, we went bug spotting together and we ate (01:37:09):
undefined

Speaker: a lot of ice cream together. (01:37:12):
undefined

Speaker: So I feel like that that set us (01:37:14):
undefined

Speaker: up for being able to have a (01:37:16):
undefined

Speaker: chat. (01:37:17):
undefined

Speaker: So that's our interviews. (01:37:18):
undefined

Speaker: But I'm guessing this wasn't the (01:37:19):
undefined

Speaker: only things covered in the (01:37:20):
undefined

Speaker: conference. (01:37:21):
undefined

Speaker: Are there any other cool bits that leapt out as topics? (01:37:22):
undefined

Speaker: Oh, so let's see the summary. (01:37:25):
undefined

Speaker: Summarize a five full day (01:37:27):
undefined

Speaker: conference in about another two (01:37:28):
undefined

Speaker: minutes. (01:37:31):
undefined

Speaker: Yeah, we're tight on time, so just wrap it up. (01:37:31):
undefined

Speaker: You know we can finish here and I'll just ring on the answer (01:37:34):
undefined

Speaker: phone and summarize it in 90s. (01:37:36):
undefined

Speaker: How about that. (01:37:38):
undefined

Speaker: But the conference abstract is still online. (01:37:39):
undefined

Speaker: Yes. (01:37:41):
undefined

Speaker: So the conference booklet can still be downloaded. (01:37:41):
undefined

Speaker: Uh, as well as the two hundred (01:37:43):
undefined

Speaker: and seventy four page book of (01:37:45):
undefined

Speaker: abstracts, including all of the (01:37:48):
undefined

Speaker: authors. (01:37:49):
undefined

Speaker: So if you want to know more about any of these topics or (01:37:49):
undefined

Speaker: who's doing this work that can actually be accessed by the (01:37:52):
undefined

Speaker: public, so we'll have that in the show notes. (01:37:54):
undefined

Speaker: I was thinking back over some of (01:37:56):
undefined

Speaker: the other talks that had been (01:37:57):
undefined

Speaker: really interesting. (01:37:58):
undefined

Speaker: There was a lot of cool stuff about reproductive behaviors. (01:37:59):
undefined

Speaker: People who know a bit about (01:38:02):
undefined

Speaker: cuttlefish are probably familiar (01:38:04):
undefined

Speaker: with the fact that they are one (01:38:05):
undefined

Speaker: of these groups where there are (01:38:07):
undefined

Speaker: different male reproductive (01:38:08):
undefined

Speaker: strategies, right? (01:38:10):
undefined

Speaker: So they're like the big dominant (01:38:10):
undefined

Speaker: consort males who are aggressive (01:38:12):
undefined

Speaker: and guarding females and sort of (01:38:14):
undefined

Speaker: deterring others. (01:38:16):
undefined

Speaker: And then there are the smaller (01:38:17):
undefined

Speaker: sneaker males that come in and (01:38:18):
undefined

Speaker: in some, you know, pretty (01:38:20):
undefined

Speaker: extreme cases. (01:38:22):
undefined

Speaker: They color themselves differently on different sides (01:38:22):
undefined

Speaker: of the body so that they're displaying to the big males. (01:38:25):
undefined

Speaker: I'm a female. (01:38:28):
undefined

Speaker: You don't have to worry about me while displaying on the other (01:38:28):
undefined

Speaker: side to the female, I'm a male. (01:38:31):
undefined

Speaker: Just ignore that guy for a bit and we'll see if we can make (01:38:33):
undefined

Speaker: some stuff happen. (01:38:36):
undefined

Speaker: So there were some amazing talks about the fact that these (01:38:37):
undefined

Speaker: strategies might be more evolutionarily locked in than we (01:38:40):
undefined

Speaker: realized, because the spermatophore morphology in (01:38:45):
undefined

Speaker: these two different types of male is predetermined. (01:38:48):
undefined

Speaker: And so like the consort males have these really big (01:38:50):
undefined

Speaker: spermatophores and the sneaker males have these smaller ones. (01:38:53):
undefined

Speaker: So they're kind of predetermined to do this. (01:38:55):
undefined

Speaker: It's not a matter of oh, how big am I going to grow? (01:38:57):
undefined

Speaker: Which strategy of life? (01:39:00):
undefined

Speaker: I didn't grow as big as I hoped from birth. (01:39:01):
undefined

Speaker: It was going to be a sneaker. (01:39:03):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Wow. (01:39:05):
undefined

Speaker: But in in other species and (01:39:06):
undefined

Speaker: other circumstances, there are (01:39:08):
undefined

Speaker: things like the male will like (01:39:10):
undefined

Speaker: we're talking about pygmy squids (01:39:11):
undefined

Speaker: here. (01:39:13):
undefined

Speaker: So these little tiny, they call them post-it notes of the sea (01:39:13):
undefined

Speaker: because they've got a little sucker, dorsal adhesion sucker (01:39:16):
undefined

Speaker: on the mantle, and they stick themselves to seagrass blades. (01:39:19):
undefined

Speaker: And so in some of these animals, which have been studied in the (01:39:22):
undefined

Speaker: lab for a long time, the male will display to the female. (01:39:25):
undefined

Speaker: And if she is receptive, they (01:39:28):
undefined

Speaker: will mate in a particular (01:39:31):
undefined

Speaker: position. (01:39:32):
undefined

Speaker: And if she's not receptive, he will do a quick flyby. (01:39:33):
undefined

Speaker: And just like stick a packet of (01:39:36):
undefined

Speaker: sperm on somewhere and head off, (01:39:38):
undefined

Speaker: which she often will then (01:39:40):
undefined

Speaker: remove. (01:39:42):
undefined

Speaker: So she has the ability first to say no thank you. (01:39:42):
undefined

Speaker: And then if he doesn't listen to that, she's like, yeah, I'm not (01:39:45):
undefined

Speaker: storing that for use later because I said, no, that's a (01:39:47):
undefined

Speaker: very plastic one. (01:39:50):
undefined

Speaker: The same males will do different (01:39:51):
undefined

Speaker: behaviors depending on on the (01:39:52):
undefined

Speaker: female's receptiveness and (01:39:54):
undefined

Speaker: whether they think they can get (01:39:55):
undefined

Speaker: close enough. (01:39:56):
undefined

Speaker: Is the body sucker adapted from (01:39:57):
undefined

Speaker: a fin or is it a novel (01:39:59):
undefined

Speaker: structure? (01:40:00):
undefined

Speaker: I believe it's a novel structure. (01:40:01):
undefined

Speaker: They still have fins. (01:40:03):
undefined

Speaker: This whole group has those and (01:40:04):
undefined

Speaker: yeah, they use them to maintain (01:40:06):
undefined

Speaker: position attached to blades of (01:40:07):
undefined

Speaker: seagrass. (01:40:09):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Speaking of suckers. (01:40:10):
undefined

Speaker: There were some very cool talks (01:40:12):
undefined

Speaker: about cephalopod suckers as (01:40:13):
undefined

Speaker: well. (01:40:15):
undefined

Speaker: So there are people who are in the biomimetics field who are (01:40:15):
undefined

Speaker: creating hydraulic replicas of different kinds and sizes of (01:40:18):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopod suckers, and investigating how the strength (01:40:22):
undefined

Speaker: of the sucker is influenced both by the size of the sucker and (01:40:26):
undefined

Speaker: also the shape of the teeth in the sucker ring. (01:40:30):
undefined

Speaker: So what kind of seal is made (01:40:33):
undefined

Speaker: onto the surface based on (01:40:35):
undefined

Speaker: whether you've got a few small (01:40:36):
undefined

Speaker: pointy teeth or larger, blunter (01:40:38):
undefined

Speaker: teeth just around part of the (01:40:41):
undefined

Speaker: sucker? (01:40:42):
undefined

Speaker: So there were some cool talks demonstrating how they'd built (01:40:43):
undefined

Speaker: these different sample suckers. (01:40:45):
undefined

Speaker: There were people who had done (01:40:47):
undefined

Speaker: histological work on octopus (01:40:48):
undefined

Speaker: suckers, and were reporting the (01:40:50):
undefined

Speaker: fact that each individual sucker (01:40:52):
undefined

Speaker: has multiple nerve bundles going (01:40:55):
undefined

Speaker: to it, and some of those are (01:40:57):
undefined

Speaker: sensory and some of those are (01:40:58):
undefined

Speaker: motor. (01:40:59):
undefined

Speaker: So they have completely (01:41:00):
undefined

Speaker: independent nerve systems for (01:41:01):
undefined

Speaker: using the suckers to grasp and (01:41:04):
undefined

Speaker: release things, and for using (01:41:06):
undefined

Speaker: the suckers as Chemosensors and (01:41:08):
undefined

Speaker: tactile sensors, so each suction (01:41:10):
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Speaker: cup has its own set of two (01:41:12):
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Speaker: completely different types of (01:41:14):
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Speaker: nerves that are controlling that (01:41:15):
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Speaker: sucker, which might explain the (01:41:17):
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Speaker: sort of arm sub brain processing (01:41:18):
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Speaker: center. (01:41:22):
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Speaker: Yes, a lot of data. (01:41:22):
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Speaker: There you know, there were (01:41:24):
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Speaker: various discussions about can we (01:41:25):
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Speaker: even agree on what consciousness (01:41:27):
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Speaker: is, how much of this are they (01:41:28):
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Speaker: controlling consciously? (01:41:30):
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Speaker: Not consciously. (01:41:31):
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Speaker: How much of the camouflage is a direct automatic response to the (01:41:32):
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Speaker: environment and how much of it is maybe consciously controlled? (01:41:36):
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Speaker: And do we call it a brain or a sub brain in the arms? (01:41:39):
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Speaker: And I think the short answer on (01:41:42):
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Speaker: that one is no, it's a nerve (01:41:43):
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Speaker: processing center. (01:41:46):
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Speaker: They don't have nine brains. (01:41:47):
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Speaker: Even sub brain is wrong. (01:41:48):
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Speaker: We'll just call it a processing center. (01:41:49):
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Speaker: I want to be right. (01:41:51):
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Speaker: I said cephalopod wrong. (01:41:51):
undefined

Speaker: I want to be right. (01:41:52):
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Speaker: I want to be right too. (01:41:53):
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Speaker: But it's not my field. (01:41:54):
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Speaker: Okay? (01:41:55):
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Speaker: Bail out. (01:41:56):
undefined
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Speaker: Octopuses. (01:41:57):
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Speaker: One other thing that was super cool, actually, was obviously (01:41:58):
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Speaker: we're interested in light and vision and how these animals are (01:42:00):
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Speaker: perceiving their environment. (01:42:03):
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Speaker: And our understanding is still (01:42:04):
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Speaker: that almost all cephalopods are (01:42:06):
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Speaker: completely colorblind, but they (01:42:08):
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Speaker: are sensitive to polarized (01:42:09):
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Speaker: light. (01:42:10):
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Speaker: There is some amazing work being (01:42:11):
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Speaker: done on what that sensitivity (01:42:13):
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Speaker: polarized light, might do for (01:42:15):
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Speaker: them. (01:42:16):
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Speaker: And in one case, there's a (01:42:17):
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Speaker: cuttlefish species that is (01:42:18):
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Speaker: producing a display by orienting (01:42:21):
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Speaker: its arms differently so that (01:42:24):
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Speaker: polarized light passes through (01:42:26):
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Speaker: the translucent tissue in a (01:42:27):
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Speaker: different way, so that it sends (01:42:29):
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Speaker: one signal with most of the (01:42:30):
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Speaker: arms. (01:42:32):
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Speaker: And it has like a little flag of a different arm that sticks up (01:42:32):
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Speaker: in the polarized light, is refracted through it in a (01:42:35):
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Speaker: different way, so that this is probably a species specific (01:42:38):
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Speaker: sexual signal, using just different orientations of (01:42:41):
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Speaker: polarized light that we need to build more cameras. (01:42:44):
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Speaker: I know more cameras, more lures, more different types of light. (01:42:48):
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Speaker: This is a shallow water species, though I feel fairly comfortable (01:42:52):
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Speaker: in the fact that at two kilometers, which is what we're (01:42:56):
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Speaker: aiming for, there's not a lot of polarized light complicating (01:42:59):
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Speaker: what we're trying to do. (01:43:02):
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Speaker: Although, having just said that, I'm sure we'll be proven wrong. (01:43:03):
undefined

Speaker: We always are. (01:43:05):
undefined

Speaker: Nature is amazing. (01:43:06):
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Speaker: There was a leucistic octopus. (01:43:07):
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Speaker: I beg your pardon. (01:43:10):
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Speaker: There was a leucistic octopus. (01:43:11):
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Speaker: There was a an individual. (01:43:13):
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Speaker: One single octopus, as far as I know, ever in recorded history (01:43:15):
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Speaker: was brought to the attention of one of the Japanese Theologists. (01:43:19):
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Speaker: He's from the UK originally, but lives in Sendai in Japan. (01:43:23):
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Speaker: A fisherman collected this (01:43:26):
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Speaker: leucistic octopus, which is all (01:43:27):
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Speaker: white, subsequently became named (01:43:30):
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Speaker: Mr. White and was then a (01:43:32):
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Speaker: research subject in eon lab for (01:43:34):
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Speaker: a while. (01:43:37):
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Speaker: That's such an opportunity, actually. (01:43:38):
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Speaker: So the functional outcome of (01:43:39):
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Speaker: this is that this octopus was (01:43:41):
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Speaker: basically all white, all the (01:43:43):
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Speaker: time, was placed on different (01:43:44):
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Speaker: types of substrate and (01:43:47):
undefined

Speaker: background to see whether it (01:43:48):
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Speaker: behaved as though it knew that (01:43:50):
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Speaker: it was not properly camouflaged, (01:43:52):
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Speaker: and it didn't seem to have any (01:43:54):
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Speaker: different behaviours from an (01:43:56):
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Speaker: octopus that would have typical (01:43:58):
undefined

Speaker: camouflage abilities. (01:43:59):
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Speaker: It was so lucky to live that long in the wild. (01:44:01):
undefined

Speaker: So lucky. (01:44:03):
undefined

Speaker: Right? (01:44:04):
undefined

Speaker: It's like the like the white (01:44:04):
undefined

Speaker: squirrels that you see (01:44:05):
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Speaker: occasionally you're like, oh, (01:44:06):
undefined

Speaker: well, delicious. (01:44:07):
undefined

Speaker: You've done very well, but I don't think you're going to be (01:44:08):
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Speaker: passing on a lot of your genes. (01:44:10):
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Speaker: He was not at all behaving as (01:44:11):
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Speaker: though he needed to do things (01:44:14):
undefined

Speaker: differently. (01:44:16):
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Speaker: I think the skin texture could still be changed, but there just (01:44:16):
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Speaker: was no ability to color match. (01:44:19):
undefined

Speaker: The background had no idea that it was a brilliant white. (01:44:22):
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undefined

Speaker: Apparently so. (01:44:26):
undefined

Speaker: Oh that's awesome. (01:44:27):
undefined

Speaker: Oh, I did have a question about the sort of mechanics of a (01:44:28):
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Speaker: sucker with teeth. (01:44:31):
undefined

Speaker: Is it like the teeth have lips? (01:44:32):
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Speaker: Can you grasp a hard substrate by retracting the teeth and (01:44:34):
undefined

Speaker: letting it form a seal, or the teeth always engaging to form a (01:44:38):
undefined

Speaker: suction so the sucker ring sits inside a ring of muscle, and so (01:44:42):
undefined

Speaker: the hard part of the sucker ring can be exposed directly to the (01:44:49):
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Speaker: surface, or can be sort of lightly exposed to the surface (01:44:54):
undefined

Speaker: with the muscle around it forming more of the seal. (01:44:58):
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Speaker: What tends to happen, I happen, (01:45:01):
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Speaker: I believe, is that the fleshy (01:45:03):
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Speaker: part of the sucker makes (01:45:05):
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Speaker: contact. (01:45:06):
undefined

Speaker: The toothy sucker ring is then brought into contact with the (01:45:07):
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Speaker: surface, and water is pumped out of the chamber behind it to (01:45:10):
undefined

Speaker: create the suction. (01:45:13):
undefined

Speaker: So when the seal is complete, (01:45:15):
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Speaker: both the fleshy part and the (01:45:17):
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Speaker: toothed part are in contact with (01:45:18):
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Speaker: the surface. (01:45:20):
undefined

Speaker: And what they're finding is they test these hydraulic replicas is (01:45:21):
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Speaker: that under a certain amount of strain, part of the toothy (01:45:24):
undefined

Speaker: sucker ring will deform first to break the seal. (01:45:28):
undefined

Speaker: And how that happens depends on (01:45:31):
undefined

Speaker: the number and distribution of (01:45:34):
undefined

Speaker: the teeth and how large they (01:45:36):
undefined

Speaker: are. (01:45:37):
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Speaker: And that seems to make a big difference to both how the (01:45:38):
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Speaker: adhesion is initiated and how that is released at the right (01:45:41):
undefined

Speaker: point in the strain. (01:45:45):
undefined

Speaker: Very very cool. (01:45:47):
undefined

Speaker: And the one little clarification (01:45:48):
undefined

Speaker: I just wanted to say, I know (01:45:49):
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Speaker: this is one of the interviews, (01:45:51):
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Speaker: um, GPO. (01:45:52):
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Speaker: GPO is giant Pacific octopus (01:45:53):
undefined

Speaker: Enteroctopus Dofleini, uh, which (01:45:56):
undefined

Speaker: is, I think, the gateway (01:45:58):
undefined

Speaker: cephalopod for a lot of us who, (01:46:00):
undefined

Speaker: you know, have worked in (01:46:02):
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Speaker: aquariums or stood in front of (01:46:03):
undefined

Speaker: an aquarium and just looked at (01:46:04):
undefined

Speaker: an enormous octopus plastered to (01:46:05):
undefined

Speaker: the glass. (01:46:07):
undefined

Speaker: A lot of people's first hug. (01:46:07):
undefined

Speaker: Yes, a lot of people. (01:46:09):
undefined

Speaker: Certainly. (01:46:10):
undefined

Speaker: Certainly my first hug. (01:46:11):
undefined

Speaker: When I worked at the aquarium in Boston, I was not actually (01:46:12):
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Speaker: involved in the octopus care, but of course was incredibly (01:46:16):
undefined

Speaker: drawn to this animal. (01:46:20):
undefined

Speaker: And so I spent as much time down (01:46:21):
undefined

Speaker: hanging out with the GPO as (01:46:23):
undefined

Speaker: possible. (01:46:24):
undefined

Speaker: And I used to come home at the end of the day with hundreds of (01:46:25):
undefined

Speaker: sucker hickeys up my entire arm, up to my shoulder from the GPO. (01:46:30):
undefined

Speaker: Thanks so much for that, Kat. (01:46:35):
undefined

Speaker: You're an excellent roaming reporter. (01:46:36):
undefined

Speaker: I wouldn't have gotten all those interviews any other way. (01:46:38):
undefined

Speaker: There's a real, real cross section there. (01:46:41):
undefined

Speaker: And because I didn't get a chance to speak directly with a (01:46:43):
undefined

Speaker: lot of people who prerecorded or used the answerphone or had a (01:46:46):
undefined

Speaker: chat with Kat. (01:46:50):
undefined

Speaker: Thank you so much for contributing to the podcast. (01:46:51):
undefined

Speaker: We are going to link to your work. (01:46:53):
undefined

Speaker: I really hope that we can give you a boost as a way of saying (01:46:55):
undefined

Speaker: thank you, but thank you for your time and energy. (01:46:57):
undefined

Speaker: We really enjoyed covering such broad, broad topics in the (01:46:59):
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Speaker: Christmas variety pack. (01:47:03):
undefined

Speaker: Delicious. (01:47:04):
undefined

Speaker: Chucky's episode. (01:47:05):
undefined

Speaker: Are you joining us for our Christmas party? (01:47:06):
undefined

Speaker: For us, it's Saturday morning on the thirteenth. (01:47:08):
undefined

Speaker: It is in my calendar. (01:47:11):
undefined

Speaker: Do we know yet what film is going to be yelled about? (01:47:13):
undefined

Speaker: We don't know what film is going to make us get very angry. (01:47:16):
undefined

Speaker: It's coming together. (01:47:19):
undefined

Speaker: So looking forward to that final reminder that you can join our (01:47:20):
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Speaker: Patreon, join our discord and join us for the holiday party! (01:47:23):
undefined

Speaker: Which Cat has just confirmed she's going to be along to. (01:47:28):
undefined

Speaker: All the cool kids will be there. (01:47:31):
undefined

Speaker: We'll watch some sort of terrible film. (01:47:33):
undefined

Speaker: Thanks so much, Cat. (01:47:34):
undefined

Speaker: We'll catch you at the party. (01:47:35):
undefined

Speaker: April O'Neil signing off. (01:47:37):
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Speaker: Hi, friends. (01:47:42):
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Speaker: Megan here. (01:47:43):
undefined

Speaker: I have an update for you on the (01:47:44):
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Speaker: work the Unseen Ocean Collective (01:47:46):
undefined

Speaker: is doing to get ready for our (01:47:47):
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Speaker: show coming up in Juneau, (01:47:49):
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Speaker: Alaska. (01:47:50):
undefined

Speaker: We are so grateful to be able to bring our deep sea inspired (01:47:51):
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Speaker: artwork and science communication outreach to the (01:47:54):
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Speaker: Juneau Arts and Humanities Council for the month of (01:47:56):
undefined

Speaker: February twenty twenty six. (01:47:59):
undefined

Speaker: In addition to madly working (01:48:00):
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Speaker: away on paintings, sculptures (01:48:02):
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Speaker: and video installations, we are (01:48:04):
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Speaker: also bringing a selection of (01:48:05):
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Speaker: hand-drawn coloring pages for (01:48:07):
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Speaker: children. (01:48:08):
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Speaker: These pages are a collaborative (01:48:09):
undefined

Speaker: effort combining line drawings (01:48:10):
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Speaker: of beautiful deep sea organisms (01:48:12):
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Speaker: like brittle stars, mushroom (01:48:14):
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Speaker: corals, carnivorous sponges, (01:48:15):
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Speaker: deep sea fish and more with age (01:48:17):
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Speaker: appropriate and fascinating (01:48:19):
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Speaker: science texts. (01:48:20):
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Speaker: We are hoping that this (01:48:21):
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Speaker: combination of art and science (01:48:22):
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Speaker: will help Alaska schoolchildren (01:48:23):
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Speaker: learn all about and connect with (01:48:25):
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Speaker: the underwater coral and sponge (01:48:27):
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Speaker: gardens in their deep ocean (01:48:28):
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Speaker: neighborhood. (01:48:30):
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Speaker: Our collective is founded on the (01:48:31):
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Speaker: idea that by bringing deep sea (01:48:32):
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Speaker: education to underserved (01:48:33):
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Speaker: communities, we can foster a (01:48:35):
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Speaker: love for these unseen (01:48:37):
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Speaker: environments and nurture a new (01:48:38):
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Speaker: generation of deep ocean (01:48:39):
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Speaker: stewardship. (01:48:40):
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Speaker: As people, we love what we can (01:48:41):
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Speaker: see and connect with, which is a (01:48:43):
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Speaker: challenging hurdle for the deep (01:48:44):
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Speaker: sea since it's far away, (01:48:46):
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Speaker: relatively inaccessible and in (01:48:47):
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Speaker: the dark. (01:48:49):
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Speaker: Kirsten Neely Laura and I believe that art can function as (01:48:50):
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Speaker: a big, bright bridge in this situation, bringing the beauty (01:48:53):
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Speaker: of the deep to the people. (01:48:57):
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Speaker: Since you can't really bring the people to the deep, what would a (01:48:58):
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Speaker: world look like where children grow up thinking? (01:49:01):
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Speaker: The deep is beautiful, fascinating and engaging? (01:49:03):
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Speaker: How can we rewrite these (01:49:06):
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Speaker: alienating, deep sea narratives (01:49:07):
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Speaker: perpetuated by bad press and (01:49:09):
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Speaker: clickbait headlines? (01:49:10):
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Speaker: These are the questions we hope (01:49:12):
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Speaker: to address with our events in (01:49:13):
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Speaker: twenty twenty five and twenty (01:49:15):
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Speaker: twenty six. (01:49:16):
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Speaker: We aspire to take real science about the deep sea and a real (01:49:17):
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Speaker: love for the deep sea, in perfect combination to help (01:49:21):
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Speaker: inspire a new public perception. (01:49:23):
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Speaker: If you're keen to see our work before February, it's being (01:49:26):
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Speaker: shown at the Chanteau Marine Lab in Gothenburg, Sweden right now (01:49:28):
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Speaker: until late January and will also be in Spokane, Washington in (01:49:32):
undefined

Speaker: April of twenty twenty six. (01:49:36):
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Speaker: You can always visit our (01:49:37):
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Speaker: website, Unseen Ocean (01:49:38):
undefined

Speaker: Collective. (01:49:40):
undefined

Speaker: Com or follow us on Instagram (01:49:40):
undefined

Speaker: and blue Sky, both under Unseen (01:49:43):
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Speaker: Ocean Collective. (01:49:45):
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Speaker: If you can make it to any of our events in person, please say hi. (01:49:46):
undefined

Speaker: We would love to meet you. (01:49:49):
undefined

Speaker: Just as a reminder. (01:49:54):
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Speaker: Coming up very soon. (01:49:56):
undefined

Speaker: Twelfth of December, UK time thirteenth of December, New (01:49:57):
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Speaker: Zealand future time. (01:50:01):
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Speaker: We're still going to have our Christmas party so there's still (01:50:02):
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Speaker: time to join us. (01:50:07):
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Speaker: What's the mechanism for picking the final movie? (01:50:08):
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Speaker: We're going to watch. (01:50:10):
undefined

Speaker: There will be a vote. (01:50:11):
undefined

Speaker: There will be a poll in the end. (01:50:12):
undefined

Speaker: At the moment we're gathering (01:50:13):
undefined

Speaker: ideas and then there'll be a (01:50:14):
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Speaker: poll. (01:50:15):
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Speaker: Democracy. (01:50:16):
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Speaker: Democracy in action. (01:50:17):
undefined

undefined

Speaker: Let's see the squid do that. (01:50:18):
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undefined

Speaker: So if you are keen to come and make sure you sign up as a (01:50:20):
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Speaker: Patreon pledger, and not only will you be helping to support (01:50:23):
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Speaker: the podcast, but you'll also get to attend the cool party if (01:50:27):
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Speaker: there's ever anything I can do. (01:50:31):
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Speaker: I usually do so if the podcast (01:50:33):
undefined

Speaker: is ready early, they get it (01:50:34):
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Speaker: early. (01:50:35):
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Speaker: And if it was an interview, that was really good, but I had to (01:50:36):
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Speaker: cut it for time. (01:50:39):
undefined

Speaker: I've been putting up the full, unedited or less edited. (01:50:40):
undefined

Speaker: I'll take out the ums and ahs (01:50:44):
undefined

Speaker: and bits that aren't relevant, (01:50:46):
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Speaker: but the longer interview I've (01:50:47):
undefined

Speaker: been putting up on the Patreon (01:50:49):
undefined

Speaker: as well. (01:50:51):
undefined

Speaker: If there's ever a way I can say a thank you and give them (01:50:51):
undefined

Speaker: something a little bit extra. (01:50:54):
undefined

Speaker: That's what I've been trying to do. (01:50:55):
undefined

Speaker: So we appreciate it. (01:50:56):
undefined

Speaker: Always thinking of others, Tom. (01:50:57):
undefined

Speaker: Aren't you always thinking of other people? (01:50:58):
undefined

Speaker: I'm thinking of the ones that help us keep going. (01:51:00):
undefined

Speaker: Couldn't do it without them. (01:51:03):
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Speaker: That's good. (01:51:04):
undefined

Speaker: Someone's got to do it. (01:51:05):
undefined

Speaker: Someone's. (01:51:06):
undefined

Speaker: Someone's got to keep us going. (01:51:06):
undefined

Speaker: There's a link in the show notes. (01:51:08):
undefined

Speaker: Uh, it's on our website as well. (01:51:09):
undefined

Speaker: You can just click that link and (01:51:11):
undefined

Speaker: record us a little answerphone (01:51:14):
undefined

Speaker: message. (01:51:15):
undefined

Speaker: I think it runs for a minute and a half, but a lot of people just (01:51:16):
undefined

Speaker: then immediately record the next part of the message. (01:51:19):
undefined

Speaker: Anyway. (01:51:21):
undefined

Speaker: Feel free to leave us a longer one as well. (01:51:21):
undefined

Speaker: There's been some good stuff (01:51:23):
undefined

Speaker: actually going on on the discord (01:51:24):
undefined

Speaker: community. (01:51:25):
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Speaker: You mentioning that long, long overdue. (01:51:26):
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Speaker: I didn't realise how much we (01:51:29):
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Speaker: were missing it until we created (01:51:30):
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Speaker: one, but we now have an art (01:51:32):
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Speaker: channel. (01:51:33):
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Speaker: We've got so many artists that are members of the community (01:51:34):
undefined

Speaker: that we now have a dedicated art channel, and some of the stuff (01:51:37):
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Speaker: that's been churned out is really, really lovely. (01:51:39):
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Speaker: Sea cucumbers, brittle star (01:51:42):
undefined

Speaker: mugs, grenadier illustrations, (01:51:44):
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Speaker: and actual art shows that people (01:51:46):
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Speaker: are creating as well, and a lot (01:51:48):
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Speaker: more. (01:51:49):
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Speaker: So. I can't believe we went so (01:51:49):
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Speaker: long without having an art (01:51:51):
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Speaker: channel, and it was immediately (01:51:52):
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Speaker: filled with absolutely amazing (01:51:54):
undefined

Speaker: stuff. (01:51:56):
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Speaker: We've got loads of feedback about the last episode. (01:51:56):
undefined

Speaker: People like the bioluminescent symbiosis one. (01:51:59):
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Speaker: It was just nice to have such a mature field of study, where all (01:52:01):
undefined

Speaker: the things I was wondering about have been answered. (01:52:05):
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Speaker: We could really, really dive into it in so much detail. (01:52:08):
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Speaker: I enjoyed that one. (01:52:11):
undefined

Speaker: One of our listeners has also (01:52:12):
undefined

Speaker: provided a photo tour and a (01:52:15):
undefined

Speaker: review of six amazing (01:52:16):
undefined

Speaker: submersibles that they've been (01:52:18):
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Speaker: working with. (01:52:19):
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Speaker: One of the team actually won an (01:52:20):
undefined

Speaker: internship and so is getting to (01:52:22):
undefined

Speaker: do some very, very cool stuff (01:52:24):
undefined

Speaker: and almost the complete opposite (01:52:25):
undefined

Speaker: of that. (01:52:27):
undefined

Speaker: The podcast has now pledged allegiance to cornflake, the (01:52:28):
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Speaker: guinea pig, and it's become a death cult, it seems. (01:52:32):
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Speaker: So. I don't know where that went (01:52:35):
undefined

Speaker: off the rails, but as soon as (01:52:36):
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Speaker: Cornflake the guinea pig made an (01:52:37):
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Speaker: appearance, people were (01:52:39):
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Speaker: committing their lives to this (01:52:40):
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Speaker: guinea pig. (01:52:41):
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Speaker: I didn't see that coming. (01:52:42):
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Speaker: I didn't see a guinea pig staging a hostile takeover. (01:52:43):
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Speaker: Well, it's not the most deep sea animal I've ever heard of, but (01:52:46):
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Speaker: it did come up because it's a relatively capybara and capybara (01:52:50):
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Speaker: came up last month. (01:52:53):
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Speaker: Your lab spirit animal. (01:52:54):
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Speaker: Because Javier works obsessed. (01:52:55):
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Speaker: Actually, you had some deep sea stickers. (01:52:57):
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Speaker: Made this for this conference (01:52:58):
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Speaker: that has a deep sea capybara on (01:53:00):
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Speaker: said sticker. (01:53:02):
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Speaker: One of my guys, Javier (01:53:03):
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Speaker: Montenegro, is a really cool (01:53:04):
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Speaker: geneticist and he was trying to (01:53:06):
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Speaker: do lots of things by, you know, (01:53:07):
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Speaker: we once had this ideas from (01:53:09):
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Speaker: Colombia. (01:53:11):
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Speaker: So he said South America and then capybaras, whatever. (01:53:11):
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Speaker: But he had this idea of trying to do a tracer experiment around (01:53:14):
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Speaker: the entire Sea of Japan, and he needed some sort of DNA that (01:53:17):
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Speaker: would be obviously not contamination from another part (01:53:20):
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Speaker: of the ocean. (01:53:23):
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Speaker: So he had this ridiculous idea of trying to completely flood (01:53:23):
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Speaker: the north west Pacific Ocean with capybara DNA. (01:53:27):
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Speaker: It never got anywhere, of course, but yeah, but then over (01:53:31):
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Speaker: time, it's become this sort of weird spiritual animal thing, (01:53:33):
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Speaker: and it's, uh, we've all kind of adopted it, really. (01:53:35):
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Speaker: All I can think of is a giant (01:53:38):
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Speaker: tea bag filled with capybaras (01:53:39):
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Speaker: being lowered by a crane off the (01:53:41):
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Speaker: side of a boat and dipped in the (01:53:42):
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Speaker: Pacific Ocean. (01:53:43):
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Speaker: Well, that was sure was a podcast. (01:53:45):
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Speaker: Yeah, yeah. (01:53:47):
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Speaker: Good job man. (01:53:48):
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Speaker: Good job. (01:53:48):
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Speaker: Don't know if it was a good one, but it sure was one. (01:53:49):
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Speaker: It definitely was recorded with ABC. (01:53:51):
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Speaker: Next time we miss you already. (01:53:54):
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Speaker: We're sorry. (01:53:56):
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Speaker: It's Christmas though. (01:53:56):
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Speaker: See you at the party. (01:53:58):
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Speaker: Bye. (01:53:58):
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Speaker: Oh, yeah. (01:54:04):
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Speaker: Would you like to share that story, Megan? (01:54:22):
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Speaker: Sure. (01:54:24):
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Speaker: At our house, our seven year old named his stuffed alpaca toy (01:54:25):
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Speaker: Professor Alan Jameson because he's an alpaca. (01:54:30):
undefined

Speaker: And so it's Alan Jameson. (01:54:33):
undefined

Speaker: And so every alpaca toy is now Professor Alan Jameson. (01:54:35):
undefined

Speaker: But they sing it, and they sing it like Hamilton. (01:54:38):
undefined

Speaker: So it's Professor Alan Jameson. (01:54:41):
undefined

Speaker: I'm so glad the podcast has ruined your home. (01:54:45):
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