Episode 049: Faith at Work with Brandon Mustful

This week on the podcast, Pastor Eric visits with Brandon Mustful to chat about Christians in the marketplace and faith at work.

Stock Media provided by MaxRazumov / Pond5

Episode Transcript

(00:18):
Hey folks, you're listening to episode 49 of the deeply devoted
podcast, A Ministry of the E Free Church of Bemidji, MN.
My name is Eric Nygren. I'm one of the pastors on staff
here at E Free Bemidji, and withme today in the deeply devoted
podcast studio is Brandon Musfall.
Brandon is joining me today as my guest to chat about

(00:40):
Christians in the marketplace and what it looks like to live
out our faith in Christ at work.And we're also going to touch a
bit on our church's strategic ministry plan and learn a little
bit about Brandon's role in thatprocess, how we got there.
So I want to jump right into it.Brandon, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.We're.

(01:02):
Going to have a good time here on this conversation.
We're going to start in One Direction and then I promise
we'll get to our topic at hand here eventually.
But first of all, Brandon, why don't you just kind of introduce
yourself a little bit? What, what do we need to know
about who you are? And maybe tell us a little bit
about how and when you got connected with our church here.
Well, I grew up in the Twin Cities in Champlin, MN, and I

(01:26):
moved to Bemidji in 2012. Actually, I was finishing up a
master's degree in public policyat the Humphrey School of Public
Affairs and looking for other opportunities.
And I saw an announcement for a job at the Beltrami Humane
Society. And I had no prior animal
experience, but I read the position description.

(01:47):
I said, well, I can do that and I can do that and I can do that.
So I submitted my resume and, and, and I got the job because
I'm kind of business minded and,and they actually wanted
somebody that wasn't too emotionally attached to animals.

(02:08):
So, so that's, that's kind of how we, we came to Bemidji,
Shelley and I. And then we went, we just looked
around at about maybe maybe it'slike 3 or 4 churches and, and we
did come here and, and we heard Pastor Fred and his sermon.
And I like the this sounds really terrible, but I like the
music that we sang that day. That's fair, yeah.

(02:28):
Yeah, horrible, you know, reasonto pick a church, but so, yeah,
so we decided to to come here and then.
And then, of course, Pastor Fredis retired, and it's been all
downhill since then. But just kidding.
Yeah, well, so you mentioned Shelly, you know, so you are
actually officially the second Must fall on the podcast here.

(02:49):
And I don't know if you know this, I don't know if she knows
this, but Shelly was back. Well, she knows that she was
back on episode 4 of this podcast.
She shared a bit of her faith journey.
But I looked back at the at the listings and that is actually
the second most popular episode of our what is now 49 episodes
of the podcast. So I'm, I'm wondering, Brandon,

(03:11):
where do you think our conversation is eventually going
to rank in, in say the top 50 here?
Well, First off, I did mention to her last night that her her
podcast was #2 and she very humbly responded, Oh, I thought
I was #3 but there's no way thatI'm going to top her.

(03:31):
She's far more interesting than I am.
It was a great conversation. And yeah, no.
Well, this is going to be a fun one, too.
And because really, you know, Speaking of episodes here,
Brandon, here's my transition. If I had a nickel for every time
that that Brandon quoted a line or referenced a scene from the
TV show The Simpsons, you know, I'd probably be maybe not a

(03:54):
millionaire, but, you know, I'd have some good change in my
pocket here. But Brandon, I don't want to
spend a lot of time on this topic because it it might kind
of be a a little nerdy and. And it's going to shoot down
your ratings big time. But I thought it would be a good
way to kind of get to know you. And Brandon, tell us a little
bit why that show resonates withyou so much.

(04:16):
Well, I just, you know, I kind of grew up with it and.
I did too. Yeah.
And there's just a lot of a lot of relevant things in there that
that really truly relate to reallife.
And it's extremely satirical. And they stop at nothing.
You know, they make fun of anything and everyone and, and
there's a lot of smart jokes in there.

(04:37):
So the guys that originally, youknow, worked on that show and
wrote it and everything, they had very high levels of
education. And even now, you know, I can
watch an episode from 1992 and it's still funny.
And there's new things that, youknow, sometimes it'll be
something that'll happen to me in, in, in life today.

(04:57):
I'll hear a song or I'll hear about some historical thing and
I'll be like, oh, that's what was going on in The Simpsons.
That was the reference, yeah, right.
And that was what they were satirizing, yeah.
Right. And it's 30 years later and and
I'm still these things are beingrevealed to me.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know, I don't, I don't follow
the show really anymore. Like you, you know, I, I kind of

(05:20):
grew up with it a little bit or it was kind of in that season of
life. I guess it would have been kind
of high school era or something like that, middle school,
something like that. I did follow that show for, I
don't know, maybe 7-8 years, 7-8seasons, I guess.
It's in in season 37 and has been officially renewed for at
least through season 40. Wow.

(05:43):
But you're right. I mean, back in those early
years, it was really known for some big, big comedy writers
were writers for that show. Yeah, and you know, even names
that probably we would know today that our comedians or talk
show hosts or. Things like that.
I mean, Conan O'Brien is is an example of of somebody who was a
writer. Right, a name that maybe people

(06:05):
would know. And of course it's not a it's
not a show for everyone. It's not, this is not
necessarily an endorsement, but I agree, you know, just it, it
was a show that did a great job of just it.
You know, they commented, like you said, on everyday life
situations, a really good sense of humor and yes, lot of satire.
And, and what was interesting isthey weren't shy and probably

(06:29):
still aren't shy about satirizing religion or even
evangelical Christianity. And I don't know that they're
making fun of, you know, in the sense of trying to demean, but
but you know, satire is about toto point out the the obvious
absurdities of things. So Brennan, what?

(06:51):
Why do you think Christians weresuch an easy target on on a show
like that? And, and even do you have any of
the favorite religious themed episodes?
Well, like you said it, it's going to grab anything and
anyone in, in, in their path and, and, and find a way to

(07:12):
satirize it. And, and yeah, I think
especially the, the idea of likea conservative, you know,
Christian is, is probably a pretty easy target.
And they use God a lot. He's been in the show many, many
times. But what's so funny is they
never show his face right, 'cause no one's ever seen God's

(07:32):
face. So they always, you just see him
from like the shoulders down. And there are some really funny.
Yeah. You know, religious episodes of
there's one in particular where Homer joins a cult, the the
movementarians and one line fromBart, He he said church, cult,
cult, church. What's the difference?

(07:53):
So we get bored someplace else every week.
And basically Marge, he, she ends up getting out of the cult
and they're trying to get Homer out.
But, you know, he's he's just, you know, really into the, the
the leader. He's obsessed with the leader.
And they finally get some beer on his tongue, one drop of beer

(08:14):
and that that saves him. And and they they end up
exposing the the movementarian leader who was just after their
money and and yeah, all all's well that ends well in that
episode. Yeah.
There's another episode where Bart is a healer and it's, it's
pretty funny. He thinks he's actually like
healing people. But you know, Lisa, of course,

(08:35):
is she's the the constant skeptic.
What one of my favorite lines again from Bart there is, is
this other spiritual leaders is,is trying to convince Bart to,
to really believe in, in Christ And, and, and Bart's like, you
know, I'm just going to go live my life the way I want and do
the deathbed repentance. And, and, but then the spiritual

(08:56):
leader guy is like, well, but you know, what if you, what if
you have a sudden death, you know, you fall off a Cliff or
you're hit by a truck or something.
And so Bart's like full coverage.
So he really considers, you know, being being a believer
just so you can have, you know, full coverage no matter what
happens. Right.
Again, I think they exaggerate the absurdity of things, you

(09:16):
know, that maybe people don't actually behave this way, but it
does maybe shine a light on someof the things, some of the
behaviors of, of, of people and,and try to think through that,
You know, what do we really believe?
I remember a few episodes, you know, they dealt with things in
the early seasons, you know, about why do we go to church
and, and some of these things. There's a lot of episodes where.

(09:37):
Well, there, there was one whereBart, yeah, or Homer refused to
go to church and and he was justliving it up on Sunday mornings
and and then, of course, there was a fire and, and Ned Flanders
saved him. It must have been Ned must have
just come home from church, maybe.
I'm not sure. But yeah, he he saved him from
the fire And and then Homer and and Ned were best friends and.

(09:59):
Yeah, so I remember watching some of these and in fact, I
have this. I grabbed this book off my
shelf. It's called The Gospel According
to The Simpsons. I shouldn't lend you lend this
to you, Brandon. It's it's probably 2025 years
old, yeah, published 2001. But it was a really interesting
book, you know, the spiritual life of the world's most
animated family. And it would it kind of comments

(10:21):
on that of just, you know, the idea is this is an animated
show. It's a cartoon, not really a
kids show, but, you know, day inthe life of this family and, you
know, the average American family, you know, what is their
level of spirituality, their religious affiliation and things
like that. So I thought that was kind of an

(10:42):
interesting thing. Now, again, we're not going to
beat this topic to death here. But, you know, even for those
people who have never watched that show, you know, culturally,
especially in the 90s and maybe early 2000s, everybody knew the
names Homer and Marge and Bart and Lisa and Maggie, right?
It was just part of pop culture.But Brandon and you mentioned

(11:04):
him, there's a character on thatshow named Ned Flanders.
For those that aren't familiar with the show, what what was his
role in the on the show? Well, he's the annoying neighbor
and and he drives Homer crazy and he is an extremely
conservative Christian and you know, he takes it to the

(11:26):
extreme. So it we're talking like a like
a Pharisee, right? All the little rules that they
have to follow in that householdand his kids, Rod and Todd are,
you know, they they are also thethe perfect little Angel kids.
But you know, again, it's like to to the extreme where it's
just kind of absurd, right. With that said, Ned is a deeply

(11:48):
flawed character and they actually have an episode that
explains, you know, how he became the way he is.
He is, his parents were beatniksand they had no rules
whatsoever. He had no boundaries or
anything. And eventually he was put into
a, a spanking study at the University of Minnesota of all
places, where he was spanked non-stop for like 30 days.

(12:11):
And then at the end of it all, the doctors like or the
researcher, he's like, how do you feel?
And Ned's like, I feel fine. And it pretty much warped his,
his whole, you know, way of thinking.
Yeah, and I think it illustrates.
Again, it's an exaggeration, butmaybe just the way the non

(12:33):
Christian world might view. Yeah, definitely.
The, the very religious Christian or, you know, whether
they understand the term evangelical or not, the one
who's, you know, very moralisticand has a, you know, keeps a
strict, as you said, it kind of Fair sickle and things like

(12:54):
that. And so it it's sort of a window
into maybe how how the non believing world views
Christians, right. And so here's here's my lead
into our main topic today. Again, we're not going to spend
much more time here on The Simpsons, but but I think it'll
help us lead to to where we're going.
So I'm going to call this episode where we're doing here

(13:15):
Brandon faith at work, because we're talking about Christians
in the marketplace. And, you know, for, for 2000
years of church history, Christians in every culture have
wrestled with what is their place in the broader culture.
You know, this, this biblical concept of being in the world,

(13:38):
but not of the world and, and trying to nuance that, of what
does that mean? And you know, what does it mean
just in, in the public sphere, but what does it mean in the
workplace and, and things like that.
And so a character like a Ned Flanders on the on The Simpsons
is an extreme example of somebody who he's in the world,

(13:59):
but he does not want to be of the world and he makes really
clear distinctions. So so, Brandon, here's my point.
Why is this topic of a Christian's place in the market
in the marketplace something we should even consider?
Well, because most of us are going to church once a week and,
and we're, you know, maybe interacting with, with people in

(14:23):
that, in that culture and churchon a limited basis.
The rest of our lives, we're outamong everyone else.
And we have a lot, there's a lotof ethical questions, a lot of,
a lot of difficult challenges. And we need to know, we need to
be prepared ahead of time how we're going to respond to that

(14:44):
and, and how we're going to dealwith it.
And we also need to be connectedto to the Lord and, and be in
the word and be in prayer to avoid our own sin and our own
selfishness and our own the things that that we want that we
might want to get ahead and things like that, that could

(15:07):
affect our decisions in in the marketplace and, and really
affect, you know, how, how somebody views us.
And then even beyond that, you're going to be a target too.
There are going to be people that, that's, that know that,
that you have something you know, that they don't have, and
they're going to be pretty bitter about it and they're

(15:28):
going to find ways to, to, to bring you down, so to speak.
I know that sounds that sounds pretty cryptic, pretty harsh,
but I I I believe it's true. Right, Yeah.
And you know, depending on maybewhen you came to faith in
Christ, you know, if you came tofaith early on and and you've,
you've sort of been in the Christian Church world a long

(15:51):
time, you, it's easy to forget just kind of how the rest of the
world operates. But for maybe some other folks
who came to faith, maybe later in life, they, they maybe
remember a season where maybe they looked at that, that fellow
believer or that, that other believer, you know, in the

(16:11):
workplace or their neighbor or something like that, and didn't
fully understand what was going on, what, what made them, you
know, a, a Christian And, you know, they use terms like what,
what makes you So why is he so why is Brandon so religious all
the time? And that's the word they have
to, to use to try to capture it.And, and, you know, we, we, I

(16:34):
think we need to think through this so that we, we don't sort
of think that the, the world is our enemy, but we do look at the
world through very different lenses.
Yeah. And it's really easy to get
frustrated and to say why, Why do they do that?
When you know us as Christians looking at, you know, people

(16:56):
that we're working with, we can get frustrated with their
behaviors. But then you have to stop and
think, well, but if they don't know Jesus, why would they act
any differently? You know, like you're saying,
you have to look at where they're coming from.
Right, right. So, Brandon, maybe tell us a
little bit about some of the jobs that you've had over the
years and, and in particular, how have some of those

(17:22):
experiences taught you about living out your faith in the
workplace? Well, I've been involved in, in
community development and nonprofits for a long time.
I was after college, I was in the Peace Corps in Paraguay.
I served there for 27 months. From there, I, I worked at the

(17:42):
Salvation Army in Brooklyn Park.And then I came up here to run
the Beltrami Humane Society, nowcalled Great River Rescue.
And, and after that, I've been at Northwoods Habitat for
Humanity for the last couple of years.
And it there, there's I, you know, I'm just learning.

(18:03):
I'm just learning and growing in, in every one of these
places. And there's so many things that
I wish I would have done differently, but it's too late.
You can't go back and do it differently.
The number one thing is, you know, I, I, I wish that I would
have been more focused on my faith and, and on and on Christ.
And I, I've been a believer my whole life, but you know, that

(18:27):
maturity has been just coming along and I'm still like so far
away from where I want to be. But with that said, even, you
know, going back to the Peace Corps where, yeah, you know, I
made a lot of mistakes, but I think I built some really strong
and deep relationships. And, you know, even just
yesterday, I, I sent a happy birthday message on WhatsApp to

(18:50):
one of my friends down there in Paraguay.
And I still talk to people every, you know, several months
and, and, and, and like I said, I, they, they came to know me
and, and respect me for, for whoI was and the beliefs that I
had. And I was going to, they had a,
they had a Catholic Church and they had an evangelical church.

(19:11):
And I would go to both of these churches and then, you know,
they would always ask me about the, you know, the people going
to the Catholic Church. And then they're asking me about
the people going to the evangelical church.
And I was just kind of the middleman and trying to keep the
peace and everything. But, you know, moving on from
there, you know, running, running a, a smaller town,
Humane Society, anybody who hasn't done it, there's no way

(19:33):
that you can appreciate what yougo through.
It's a extremely emotional fieldthat requires a lot of really
tough decisions. And there's a lot of
expectations on you. And, you know, I had to try to
remain, you know, steadfast with, with, with, with following

(19:55):
my, my Christian beliefs and, and following the Lord and, and
believing that he was going to step up for me.
And, and that organization. It, it was, it was in a really
difficult spot when, when I started very little money.
We were in debt, bad community reputation, and I had no idea

(20:16):
what I was doing. Like I said, I'd never.
I'd never done anything with animals other than the pets that
I had when I grew up, but I trusted that God was going to
take care of us. And I and I had plenty of
moments where, you know, I had, I had my doubts and God always
showed up and, and he did it in amazing ways.
And that really helped bolster my faith and, and, and help me

(20:40):
to, to lead with, with integrity.
And there were several instanceswhere my a leadership was, was
questioned. I actually had to go through two
investigations into my conduct, which I am not perfect.
And of course I'm not going to go into detail on this on this

(21:02):
podcast, but that's the kind of scrutiny that you're under.
And yeah, you know, I, I, I always just tried to uphold, you
know, what I felt was right and,you know, trying to appreciate
at at the same time that I, you know, I, I don't always know

(21:23):
what the right thing to do is, but, you know, while respecting
my, my community and respecting the, my board members and, and
things like that. So I don't know, that's kind of
a long winded complicated response, but.
Well, and I think it is you, youknow, you said you're kind of
learning as you go and you know,even as you reflect back, you

(21:43):
know, if there was a way that you could go back in time and
maybe change or, or warn yourself or something, you, you
would, but you can't. And so you try to just learn
from, from your experience. You're, you're positive and
you're negative, but you know, you're hired for a job.
You, this is what, what they askof you to do.

(22:04):
But you are a a Christian and you are trying to live out your
faith, not just your ethics, butas a believer, we, we understand
that we are to go and make disciples, right, of of all
nations and maybe I would say ofall situations, right.
And so, so Brandon, you know, one of the things that has come

(22:26):
up a few times in our Friday morning men's discipleship group
sometimes has been, you know, what are some wise ways of
sharing the gospel, doing evangelism at at work.
And and so man, Brandon, maybe you could comment just is it
appropriate to speak about your faith in Christ with your non

(22:47):
Christian coworkers and and how do you navigate those situations
maybe when the opportunity is there?
Yeah. And I feel really unqualified to
answer that question. But my, my belief is yes,
absolutely you can. You can talk about your faith.
You can talk about Christ. What you need to do is, is be in

(23:08):
prayer and be in communion with the Lord yourself and then ask
him. Show me where you're working and
where you want to use me that you know, we're here to partner
with him. It's it's not about us and what
we want to accomplish. He's going to accomplish what he
wants to accomplish. And we're just privileged if he
allows us the opportunity to, tobe part of that.

(23:29):
So if you, if you keep your eyesopen, your ears open, those
opportunities are going to come up.
And, and, and when they do, then, you know, you can have
those conversations with your Coworkers and, and while at the
same time, you know, being sensitive and not, you know,
shoving something down their throat, but everybody, you know,

(23:51):
when we were doing our strategicplanning, one of the things that
was obvious from the, the research that we looked at is
people are just desperate for connection, but they're also
really skeptical of churches. So you have a great opportunity
to connect with somebody outsideof a church and build that
relationship. And most of the time they're
going to be receptive because they, they, they need to hear

(24:14):
the gospel truth. And, you know, if, if things, if
things don't go well, then, you know, maybe take a step back
and, and keep praying about it. But as far as I know, we're
still in a country that you're allowed to speak what what you
believe. Absolutely, Yeah, yes.
And yeah, I mean, I think there is a fine line and you know,

(24:37):
it's, it's harder for me becausemost of my vocational career has
been in a, in a church setting, in a ministry setting.
And so it's helpful for me to kind of stop and think about
what, what everybody else is doing Monday through Friday or,
you know, through through the week.

(24:57):
I mean, with, with the normal people, if I can say it that
way, that aren't in ministry full time of, of what it's what
it's like to navigate your faithin the workplace.
And yeah, to test those waters and to build, because you do,
the people you work with, you dobuild a relationship with, even
if you don't, you know, they're,they're not your best friends.

(25:18):
They're not people you would spend a lot of time with.
Maybe outside work, you build a relationship and whatever it is
that's important to you should kind of come out it just as
maybe what's important to them will come out.
You know, maybe they'll talk about their family or their, you
know, even if it's more surfaceytheir their sports team that
they they live and die by and things like that.

(25:41):
And so I, I think it's normal that those things come out and
just because it's in the spiritual realm, I don't think
those have to be awkward or strange or taboo topics.
Yeah. And at the same time, I don't
exactly advocate for just like letting it ride for 10 years.
Oh, you know, they'll ask me when they're ready.
Kind kind of a thing, right. And that does go back a little

(26:03):
bit to Bart's rationale of, of, of having full coverage.
You don't know when that person's going to get called.
And so, right, it's like you need to, obviously you need to
build a relationship and, and, and it does take time, but at
the same time, you can't just sit around and wait either.

(26:26):
We really need to be telling people, yeah, because life goes
by fast. And, and you know, maybe that
person, before you know it, they, they leave, take another
job or something. You never told them about
Christ. Right.
And I think it would be a shame if, you know, you left that
position or they left that position and at the end of that
time, they found out that you were a Christian.

(26:46):
And they said, I would have never guessed that about
Brandon. You know, we've been working
together for 10 years. And I never knew that was true
of him, right? That would be a, a, a real
shame. And, you know, probably
something we need to rethink through so well, Brandon, you
know, sometimes we, we talk about, especially in a, in a
ministry context, we, we talk about calling.

(27:07):
You know, we think of someone who is called into the mission
field or pastoral ministry or some kind of full time ministry.
But, but what about people who are not in full time ministry?
You know, what about Christians whose vocation is something
other than ministry? In what sense might we say,

(27:32):
Brandon, is, is called to these,these jobs that you've had?
What is? What is?
What is your sense of calling? You know, in, in, in, in, in the
workplace. Boy, this is a hard hitting
podcast. You ask so many hard questions.
I, I, I again, I don't have an answer for you.

(27:53):
What I can tell you is before I joined the Peace Corps, I was, I
was an intern at the Department of Treasury.
And more specifically, I was, I was more deeply involved in the
Alcohol, Tobacco, Tax and Trade Bureau.
And I was doing a great job. And they would have hired me,
you know, right out of college. And I just, I just knew that I
was, I did not want to sit behind a desk in Washington, DC,

(28:17):
you know, right, right out of college.
And since that time, you know, I'm, I've been trying to figure
out my, my calling. I know that, that I'm called to
serve. And that's been the main reason
why that you, why I've been in, in different nonprofit
organizations and I've, I, but I've had a lot of struggles and

(28:39):
it's been really difficult. More recently, in the last, you
know, few years, I started my own consulting business, must
full strategic consulting. And, and that is something that
I, I believe that, that I'm called to do, you know, it, it,
it's like I said, it's taking a long time to figure out exactly

(29:01):
where my skill sets are and, and, and how I can use them, you
know, for, for God's Kingdom. But I, I do believe and hope
that that that's something that I can do more of where I'm not
just we look at the example of the Humane Society.
I was there for 11 years. The whole thing turned around
for the better. And like I said, I, I, I made a

(29:24):
lot of mistakes, but we, you know, we, we really improved the
operations, improved the reputation, every, everything
about the organization did better.
I feel like I can bring that to other organizations, other
business leaders, other, you know, churches with, with my
ability to see the bigger picture, organize things and,

(29:47):
and help move things forward. Yeah, it I think calling we we
again, I think we use it a lot in these more ministry contexts,
but I believe that that people are called to whatever vocation

(30:08):
it it doesn't have to be a ministry vocation.
I really do believe people are called, but but at the same
time, it's not this mystical experience.
And it, you know, I don't fully understand how the Lord
sovereignly works through thingslike resumes and interviews and

(30:29):
the normal process of searching for a job and interviewing for a
job and landing a job. Because even in in the ministry
world, we do those things, you know, when we have an open
position at the church, we gather resumes, we do
interviews, we call references. And and yet we also pray and

(30:51):
just seek the Lord's face. And I always think that's an
interesting thing because, you know, often times the prayers
are something like, Lord, you already have the person in mind
for this position. And you we could, we could just
coast and we could just wait until, you know, Joe or Sally or
whoever it is just shows up and says, I feel led to, to come and

(31:16):
fill this position. It's probably not going to
happen that way, But but it does, you know that that
there's, there's a cooperation process.
And I think that happens in the the non ministry context as
well. You know that if we're prayerful
about what the Lord would have us do, you know, through our

(31:36):
maybe through our education or preparation or skill building,
that the Lord's going to lead usto the right place and he's
going to sovereignly move those,you know, kind of move those
pieces so that you end up where you end up.
And you're right. I mean, it's that where you were
doesn't just because you were called to wherever doesn't mean

(31:57):
that it's going to be smooth sailing over those eleven years
or or whatever. You know, well, yeah, I'm
definitely really annoyed by people that are like, when they
were like 8 years old, I, I feltcalled to be, you know, this.
And then that's what they've been their whole life.
And it's like, I'm so happy for you.
Not your experience. Yeah, yeah.

(32:17):
But yeah, I think, I think that's not true for a lot of
people. And, and you know, a calling is
a deeply personal thing in between you and and the Lord.
But you know, you have to involve others as well to help
you, help you learn what what that calling might be as well
'cause they can see things that you can't.
And I want to tie it in with, with strategic planning,

(32:38):
something that that I do a lot of with my consulting business.
This just the strategic plan itself is is not as valuable as
the process of doing strategic planning.
You learn a lot in going throughthat process, which involves
conflict and a lot, a lot of difficult decisions and

(32:59):
information gathering and a lot of really boring stuff sometimes
too. But you learn a lot about your
organization. So likewise, through all the
experiences that you have, you learn about yourself personally
and and who you want to be. Right, right.
Brandon, do you want to define for us what strategic planning
is and maybe let us know how didyou get interested in in that

(33:22):
field? Yeah, it it's a process of
understanding strategic issues. So, so issues that affect your
ability to achieve your mission and, and understanding your
place in the world, basically your environment, your strengths

(33:43):
and weaknesses and, and using all that information to, to
develop a rational like, what word am I looking for?
Deliberate ideas about who you're, who you are and where
you're going and how you're going to get there.
It's a, it's a road map, yeah, to to where you're going now.

(34:04):
The future is uncertain, so that's where strategic plans can
get a bad rap because people think that, oh, OK, I've got
this map for the next five years, I'm just going to do
everything. Just follow the playbook, right?
Yeah, but but yeah, you say playbook, just like in a
football game, you come in with a plan and then, you know, it
kind of goes down the toilet when you when you find out you

(34:27):
know, how challenging the other team is.
So, but that doesn't mean you don't make a plan.
That doesn't mean that the the football coach, he's still going
to spend all week preparing for that next team.
And he's going to prepare differently for, you know, the
Bengals than he will for the Bears or the Broncos.
I'm picking all B teams, I guess, but that's the same thing

(34:49):
with your, your organization, your business.
You, you want to plan and prepare, but make a plan that's
flexible and understand that youknow that there's going to be
changes as you go. I got involved with it because
at the Humphrey School of PublicAffairs, I had a class with John
Bryson, a, a, a leader in, in strategic planning.
And one class in particular, we did some action oriented

(35:13):
strategy mapping. We were in groups and, and just
did like a, it was like we're a pretend organization and we
developed a strategic plan in like 2 hours.
And, and, and it was really cooland impactful.
And then when I came to the Humane Society, we didn't have
any kind of plans. So I was like, well, I had this
class, you know, like 6 months ago.

(35:33):
I mean, well, let me just and I still have the textbook.
Let's just do what it says in here.
Yeah. And we developed a strategic
plan. And then after two years, things
had changed so much that we developed another strategic
plan. And, and I felt like that was
kind of the main, one of the main impetus for, for all the
positive change. And, and then Habitat for

(35:53):
Humanity called and well, we need a strategic plan.
And so I helped them with theirs.
And, and, and then, you know, going a little bit further in my
career, again, I was trying to figure out my calling.
I wasn't feeling like being the executive director of a Humane
Society was going to be what I was going to do till I retired.
And so, you know, through a lot of prayer and and conversations,

(36:16):
I decided to yeah, to start my own business in in doing that.
Well, so more than a year ago now, our church said, hey,
Brandon, we, we want to develop a strategic plan.
We're, we're starting to think about some of these questions.
Can you, can you help us? And that's, that was the that's

(36:38):
what brought about what we now know as our church's mission and
vision and core values and our our discipleship pathway.
That's good. For a second I thought you were
going to say and that was the biggest mistake we ever made.
It was no, no, I mean, we're even even this Sunday here we're
going to be, we're going to be back to the four GS, right?

(36:58):
That's something that was birthed out of that whole
process, you know, the gather, grow, give and go.
So. So, Brandon, tell us a little
bit about the part that you played in our own church's
strategic ministry plan. Well, I'm a facilitator, so the
idea is not that I tell you whatyou should be doing, but that I

(37:19):
just help organize the process, create forums for ideation and
decision making. And it was, it was challenging
because I of course, made a plan.
OK, here's how we're going to develop our strategic plan.
And then and I created a proposal.

(37:41):
But then by the time the elders wanted to, you know, talk to me
about it again, I completely changed the proposal.
And then by the time we started doing strategic planning, you
know, we started going one way. And then I'm like, oh, but let's
do it this way. And then like, oh, no, wait, we
got to do this. And everything changed as we
went. So it was not exactly a linear

(38:03):
process, but like I said, it wasa process of learning.
And, and it did give us opportunities to to really think
deliberately and strategically about who we are as a church and
how we want to actually define becoming a deeply devoted
follower of Christ. Yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, I, I think we

(38:25):
needed some direction and no, because when you get 1618
ministry leaders, staff and volunteers in a room, you get
all kinds of ideas of what we should do and why we should do
it and the way we used to do it and the way we.
Yeah, I think, I think church consulting is not for the faint

(38:48):
of heart, for sure. But it's people that are
passionate about local church ministry and in particular their
local church. So, yeah.
So it'll be neat to just kind ofsee over the years here,
Brandon, how the Lord uses that strategic consulting.

(39:10):
Not I, I guess maybe not ministry, but it could be a
ministry. Yeah, yeah.
In the sense of that that strategic consulting work,
because sometimes it'll be in a church context and sometimes
it'll be in a nonprofit and things like that.
Yeah, or, or like right now I'm talking to another Christian
business leader. He owns businesses, but they're

(39:30):
they're not, they have nothing to do with, you know, a
ministry. But he, you know, he told me
what I want to, you know, do do mission work.
I want to spread the gospel through these businesses that I
run. Yeah, Yeah.
Well, Brandon, we've we've covered a lot of ground here.
You know, we've talked about strategic planning, we've talked

(39:51):
about living out our faith in the workplace, Christians in the
marketplace. So I want to kind of open end
here. Brandon, what do you think our
church should should be thinkingabout?
You know, I'm going to give you the microphone here for a second
here. And what, what's one thing that
you would want our church reallyto think through with respect to

(40:17):
all the things we've been talking about today?
I, I, I just think that no matter what, we need to be in
the word and we need to be in prayer and, and, and really
looking to the Lord, but then incommunion with each other as

(40:41):
well. And, and that's, that's why
church is so important and that whole, the G of gathering is so
important. And it's probably ironic coming
from me 'cause, you know, I don't, I don't like going down
to the, you know, Cafe and sitting around chatting about

(41:02):
anything. But that doesn't mean I don't
like you. I just, I just don't really,
it's just doesn't interest me. Often times I'm already thinking
about the next thing that I haveto get done.
And that's just just my personality.
But, but it's important to recognize that we, that we need
each other and everybody is unique and special.
And then God made us like that on, on purpose.

(41:23):
So I, I think we, we need to focus on, on, on community.
But that's, you know, that's a lot of, that's internal stuff.
And that's where I think we needto do a better job of the being
more external, externally focused and bringing, you know,
bringing more people into our church.

(41:44):
I think sometimes we get so focused on on being as biblical
as we possibly can that, you know, we we scare away other
people. And that's not like I'm not
saying we should absolutely be 100% biblical, but but we need
to be open to, to bring in more people in here so they can hear

(42:05):
and be part of all the the good things going on.
Yeah, Amen. Yeah.
And there's there are a lot of good things going on.
I just even think about the start of ministries coming up
this week with our kickoff and everything kind of restarting
here for the the school year. I'm excited about what's
happening here. But I, I love that focus of it's
not just about what happens herein particular in our building.

(42:27):
This is, this really needs to beascending center because we are
out in the community. We are working in the community
and living in the community. And, you know, our kids are in
the in schools and things like that.
So we are part of the the greater Bemidji community and
not just this local church community.
So that's a great, that's a great reminder.

(42:48):
Yeah. I want to go back to one, one
thing with The Simpsons, in caseanybody is still listening, the
one, you know, hugely redeeming quality of The Simpsons is, is
that it's family centered and that it's about a family that
is, has a lot of problems, but they stick together.
And, and they, you know, Homer does love his family.

(43:12):
He's faithful to his wife and, and they, they, they get
through, you know, thick and thin together.
So anybody that, you know, you know, maybe they're offended by
the fact that we talked about The Simpsons.
I get it. There's a lot of, you know, kind
of raunchy stuff on there. But at the same time, it's at
its core, it's about a family that that sticks together.

(43:33):
That is interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
Just that that's, you know, lotsof TV shows that try to depict
the average American family, some better, some worse.
And yeah, kind of an interestingcommentary on on family life.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, Brandon, at the end of every episode here on the
podcast, I like to ask my guestsone last question.

(43:56):
At our church, as you mentioned,we are all about becoming deeply
devoted followers of Jesus together.
So Brandon, what's one thing that you have been blessed by
lately that is deepening your own devotion to Jesus?
I, I read a book called experiencing God recently.

(44:17):
I did AI did that with my brother and and we once a week
we would, you know, talk about each chapter and and so that was
really good. And there was a lot of, you
know, challenging conversations and I think I think it it was
helpful for both of us. So yeah, it's called
experiencing God. Do you remember the author?

(44:38):
Henry Blackaby. It's kind of a classic.
Yeah. You know, it's, it's been a
while since I've read that one, but it's a great one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. And so if anybody's listening
and wants to get a hold of that book, we can we can point you in
the right. Direction, although frankly I
hate to promote a book, but. Yeah, what?
Are you going to do? Well, I'm recommending this book
here, Brandon, The Gospel according to The Simpsons.

(45:01):
That might be more up your alley, but folks, that's going
to do it for this episode of thedeeply devoted podcast.
My thanks again to Brandon Musvall for joining me today to
talk about strategic planning, faith at work and of course the
long running animated TV show The Simpsons.
We are due up folks for our nextTestimony Tuesday episode.

(45:22):
And if you'd like to be a guest on the podcast and you would
like to share about your faith journey, I would invite you to
reach out to me. Use our podcast e-mail, which is
just podcast at EFC bemidji.org.Or you know, maybe there's
somebody out there that you would like to hear their story.
Let me know and maybe I'll kind of gently nudge them and see if

(45:43):
they'd be willing to share theirtestimony on the podcast.
But we'll be back in two weeks folks with another episode and
until then, have a great week and thanks for listening.