Family Matters | Fred Fox Jr. & Stephen Langford | Writers/Producers - The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois

Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Fred Fox junior, Steven LankfordFirst of all, is it Fred Fox
junior or just Fred Fox? I get junior visa, Yeah, My dad
was a writer and all that kind of stuff.
So I guess we can go junior. OK, wonderful.
Yeah, you guys are you know, youyou were in it.
I mean writing and producing you, you did a lot of that for
Family Matters, which is the thethe show that my self and my Co

(00:30):
host Andrew who could not be with us today.
That's too bad. Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, he. He sends his love.
I mean, he knows that this is going to be a terrific
conversation. He could have you.
You wish he could have been here, but.
Yeah, no. For the past couple of years,
we've been just diving into everything that is our favorite
childhood television show, Family Matters.
And once we saw your name on thecredits and what you guys

(00:52):
contributed to this show, we were really just hoping to speak
to you. So to be able to have that
opportunity right now is just soamazing.
So. So thank you for having us and
thank you word of this. Yeah.
So let's just start from the beginning.
If you guys don't mind, can you each tell me how television came

(01:15):
into your life? Like what first made you want to
say, OK, I got it right, I got to produce for television.
Steve, why don't you start it off?
Well, I was a teenager and the TV series Star Trek came out and
there was a book called The Making of Star Trek, which I
read and I saw the the outline for the pilot for Star Trek was
like 15 pages. And I said to myself, I could do

(01:37):
that. And I was just like sort of.
And then I was as a teenager, I was just writing 120 page
screenplays and things like thatwith my parents from like didn't
know what to think. It's like 1516.
I was then I started making these, you know, cute little
films and things. And I was all into the whole
that whole thing. And then I went to Emerson

(01:59):
College and which was had a ridiculous amount of talent that
was there. I mean, because I'm not, there's
like a list of famous actors, writers, screening people that
came out at school and met some friends.
And then he ended up working on a on Different Strokes.
And then when there was an opening on Silver Spoons, it's

(02:21):
kind of obscure show right now, I got a job as assistant and
eventually became a writer on the show.
Excellent. I'm kind of like the antithesis
of Steve. It's so cool.
Steve knew what he wanted to do,and he was writing screenplays.
As I mentioned earlier, my father was a writer.
Bob Hope, George Burns, Jackie Gleason, Lucy.

(02:43):
And growing up, I thought it wasso cool.
Dad was a writer. Never, never entered my mind
that I would do it. I graduated from UC Santa
Barbara, went to San Diego State, and my first big job was
I was at Hertz Truck Rental. I was behind the desk then.
I was an executive. And then in 1974, I took a

(03:08):
comedy writing class at UCLA Extension.
There's a gentleman there. It were for an advertising
agency, and we kind of hit it off.
We wrote a spec on the family myfather's agent submitted to.
The producers didn't hear anything for a while.
We got a letter from the producers saying you guys are
very funny. The guy I wrote it with was Gary
Shandling, who is amazing. Oh.

(03:29):
My God. Amazing.
And then in New Year's Eve 1975,I got a call from Cindy
Williams, my high school classmate.
She said, I'm doing this show called Laverne and Shirley.
It could be cancelled right away, but if you want to be my
Gopher, basically. And then when we leave from the

(03:52):
day, I could go to the writer's room.
She got me a meeting with Gary Marshall.
I walked in and he said, oh, so you're Freddie Fox as a kid.
And when Garry Marshall and Jerry Bilson came out from New
York to be writers, one of the first shows they were on, or it
was a Joey Bishop show. And Gary said dad was very
helpful and encouraging. And then Gary said, now I know

(04:15):
you want to write. I almost went, really.
But he said, you know, right nowif Cindy needs some dry cleaning
picked up or a car wash, you know, we just would like her to
concentrate on the show. And I said that's fabulous.
It was a great car wash. So we're going to do an episode
where Ron Howard and Anson Williams guest starred, and I

(04:36):
wrote the episode. So I ended up on Happy Days.
So I was extremely lucky. Oh my God.
Well, follow up questions for for each of you on your start.
So Steven, can you like like I'm, I'm, I'm wondering how you
met, how you were friendly with people that happened to work on
different strokes. So these are people that were

(04:57):
like a fellow Emerson College students.
College classmates. OK.
And, and how did, I mean what did they get the job much in the
same way that you get a show business job.
They just knew the right person and and they got connected
there. I think see the thing of Emerson
College was they had Ala program.
So the LA program put students out here in LA and now it's like

(05:23):
there's a whole building. There's a whole Emerson building
I think on Sunset, I think. And but so I had friends that
got connected from this and because they got connected, they
got on shows. They were on shows before I was.
And then when I was I graduated that they got me an interview
for a show and that was it. Can you talk about your

(05:47):
experience working on different strokes that being your first
big no? No silver spoons.
They they were on different strokes.
Let me let me explain. Embassy Television was doing six
or seven different shows and where we were, we were in
bungalows at Universal, right? Like little bungalows, you know,
and where Amlin is now. That's where I worked.

(06:11):
And so it was sort of like, yeah, I was on silver spoons,
but different structures across the across the walk, you know,
across the the side, you know, it's like it's right over there.
I just walk over the in fact, life is fact that life is to my
right and differences to my left.
You know the glitter is just Youare in a sea of shows.
Wow. And yeah.

(06:33):
So first gig on Silver Spoons, what was that experience like?
What did you learn? What failures did you have to go
through to become the success that you are now?
Like tell, tell me what that first experience in in the
business was? Like, oh, the first experience,
well, I did leave out, I did leave out one thing.
Oh, when I was in college, IPA Ed on major movies.

(06:53):
See what I did was I was in highschool and they gave you, you
had to do 2 internships. And I was sitting there looking
at a list of internships and I looked at then I thought of,
wait a minute, there's a film Bureau, the Massachusetts film
Bureau. I'll ask my, you know, teacher
if I can get one there. And they got me one there
because that's the way I thoughtwas, oh, if I, if I'm in a film

(07:14):
Bureau, then I need to be on set.
If I'm being set, I can get a job in a movie.
That's exactly what happened. I did.
AI was like it was I was 18 years old working on Oliver's
story. The sequel's a love story.
And the first job I had was RyanO'Neal had to drive his car down

(07:37):
to hit the mark, and I'm at witha mark, with a radio down at the
mark where he has to stop again,18 years old, The car comes
down. They yell cut.
I tell Ryan Cut. Then Ryan Neal says, want me to
drive you back up? And I'm like, drive me back up
with Ryan O'Neal, who at the time was a very, very big movie
star. And I'm like, where the fuck am
I? Where am I?

(07:57):
What the heck is going on? What did I get myself into?
And then I worked on the verdictof Paul Newman.
I said Gummet and starting over and Hanky Panky with Gene Wilder
was a very, very nice guy. Yeah.
And so that was my college. So.
So when I came out to Lai had the best resume of anybody.

(08:17):
So that's why I got the job on Silver Spoons.
I had done so many films. Yeah.
My goodness. And Fred, I mean, you mentioning
that your father, Fred Senior, already had his experience in
the business and was working with the likes of Lucille Ball.
Can you tell me what that experience was like being, you
know, amongst those big names asa kid growing up trying to
figure out your way into the business?

(08:39):
Was it intimidating? Was it fascinating?
Like tell me what that was like.Yeah, no, I thought it was
fascinating. Dad was a very, very funny man.
You know, he wasn't a joke teller per SE.
He was just just naturally funny.
All my high school friends wouldwant to come over and to see me,
but I think a lot of it was to see see dad and have fun.

(08:59):
When I have a twin sister. Once I would go to the filming,
I remember went to a Sunday and Cher taping Jerry Lewis.
In fact, Jerry Lewis, I think we're 16 at the time, and I
think Jerry Lewis's son asked mysister out on a date.
OK. She for some reason maybe should

(09:21):
have seen someone but didn't go out with him and he couldn't
understand why she wouldn't go out with him.
We we have a bulb in our house with a good idea.
So, you know, so far as I said, you know, and I mean, in high
school I was class comedian, allthat kind of stuff.
And then UC Santa Barbara took one acting class and you know,

(09:41):
which is fun, but just still never thought I wait, I guess I
worked when I was going to UC Santa Bar.
I worked as a stagehand and dad got me a kind of a stagehand job
at the studios. So I would either get a prop
call, a grip call or electric call.
I was always here I get an electric call because I had no

(10:03):
idea what I would be doing. I worked at like works the and
Mark and Margaret special. She was, I think I had a grip
call that day and she was singing respect.
And after the rehearsal, we'd have to move some stuff after
when she kind of was, you know, pointed towards me to like come
see her. And I, I turn around like 10
times. She finally said, no, you and

(10:25):
she, I walked up and she said, oh, excuse me, but you have a
very nice face. Can I look at you when I'm
singing? And after I fainted and got up,
I said, of course, you know, theexperience was amazing.
And then fine. Oh, I worked on a game show
called the girl in my life, FredHot.
It was the host and I was in theaudience department, which was

(10:47):
very important because the premise of the show was you
would bring a girlfriend, a woman would bring her girlfriend
to the show and say, oh, this will be fun.
And you she would be honored fordoing nice things for people.
So that was my first real experience.
But yeah, again, growing up, I thought it was so great.
Dad, it was right. And we never even talked about

(11:08):
it. If, you know, if I wouldn't be
in it. I mean, looking back, obviously
I wish I had said, hey, dad, this is looks like fine.
Can you get me a meeting? But, you know, I just was if
Cindy Williams hadn't called, I don't know what I would have
ended up doing. So again, extremely, extremely
lucky. You mentioned working in the
audience department. What does what does that mean?

(11:30):
What? We had, since we surprised the
woman in the audience, we had tohave the audience, you know, get
an audience to come to each show.
So we would call fraternities, sororities in your homes and we
would bust them in to see the show.
So that was it was it was an interesting show because we shot
on Friday and we'd be we'd have the audience all set.

(11:52):
And then we get a call Friday morning and say, Oh, Mr. Fox,
I'm sorry, our 50 people can't come.
So then we scramble to get more people's.
It's kind of a high pressure job, but it was, you know, a
very good experience and even, you know, working at Hertz Trek
going along. I remember James Mitchell didn't
start writing to his like for it.
And he said that, you know, everything he did helped, you

(12:13):
know, help him become a writer and you know the experiences,
which I I think is very true. You know some of the experiences
we all have, you know, before weget in the business.
So when you're like writing and producing something like A
Family Matters and you come in with that audience department
experience, is that something that's, I don't know it is, is
that something that's that's helpful to to when you are just

(12:37):
focusing on writing and producing?
So I think it, it really is. And I'm I'm glad I started out
as a, you know, basically a Gopher to Cindy Williams,
because I think when you start at the, you know, the bottom per
SE, you just you really realise,first of all, how lucky we are
to be in this business. And there's I think, a lot of
talented people that never get the break.

(12:58):
So you know, when I got in and then since, you know, dad was
very successful right over theretimes, you know, he was out of
works and you so I knew just howso lucky I was to start on
LeBron and Shirley and then, youknow, happy days for you know,
that seven years in family matters for 8.
And you know, I've certainly have done shows that were

(13:19):
cancelled, you know, after 13. But again, just seeing what you
know, dad went through. I remember as a little kid, you
know, one of my favorite shows was Superman.
I'd be all excited and dad wouldcome home and say, Oh, dad,
let's watch Superman and and he'd go, oh boy, great.
And then I'm sure Steve couldn'tunderstand this, too.
And you all of a sudden he kind of, you know, I disappear and

(13:40):
walk in. And he was on his role
typewriter, you know, typing away.
And I, you know, it didn't really bother me because I knew
fortunately, you know, how how hard the business is and how
many hours you had to work. But yeah, it was when I finally
got in, I just again, just, you know, loved every moment.
And you know, Steve would agree,you know, you know, writing
tables at family matters. God, Oh my God.

(14:02):
So much fun. And then, yeah, how I got on
family Matters. Yeah.
I worked with Michael Warren andBill Beckley on Happy Days.
Yeah, gentlemen. And Brian Van Knight created a
show called My Secret Identity, and Jerry O'Connell and Derek
McGrath were the leads. And Brian stayed here to run the

(14:25):
new Leave It to Beaver. And then I went to Toronto to
shoot My Secret Identity. When that ended, I went back to
new live to Beaver, start shooting in Orlando.
And then I came back here and I thought, gosh, you know, I hope
we get on a show. And then I got a call from
Michael Warren saying, hey, we're doing a show called, we're

(14:45):
doing a show of family matters. Steve and I came out in the
second season and he said we hired Dave Duke Klein to be a
showrunner. And is Steve and I will tell you
later, just an incredible, great, talented showrunner in
person. So that's how I got on family
matters. How did you get on Family
Matters, Steve? Because I had worked on Jim

(15:09):
Gagan was up for one of the producers was on Silver Spoons.
And what happened was it's a fewsteps, but what happened was, is
that I that Jim noticed me first, he mentored me.
And when Norman Lear sold the company to Sony, we were going

(15:29):
to get what do you call a bonus check?
Now, a bonus check was usually aweek salary, which is about 350
bucks, right? So I'm going, OK, so it's, it's
toward Christmas time. I work for.
Mind you, the only person I didn't like was my first boss
was a really terrible guy. What happened?
Oh, that's another that's that'sa whole podcast in itself.

(15:50):
But I could get you a bunch of people to do a Steve Pritzker
pod podcast. Yeah, because he was so
notorious. But.
I'll be interested. So anyway, so I so Jim mentors
me and he and there's some tragedy happens to one of the
writers on Silver Spoons and I come on in the mid season and

(16:11):
staff. So I've left as a as an
assistant maybe a year and a half ago and come back as a
writer. And it was like all the
assistants were hanging, hangingtheir heads out the window
cheering me on. I was like, Oh my God, I can't
believe this shit. Couldn't believe it.
But then so I worked there and then Dave Dukeland did Boys V
Boys and then Jim was on that show too, and he said, let's

(16:33):
bring Steve on. So then I was, I knew Dave from
the first season of Silver Spoons as an assistant, but not
as a writer. And then we saw what I could do
on Boys V Boys with Matthew Perry.
Then I had his eye. So when he got Family Matters, I
was one of the first calls. I was like, I had that year.
I had interviews for The Cosby Show and Family Matters.

(16:58):
Really. Yeah.
I went to New York, thank God. And it's like.
Well, no, no, I mean, and, and yeah, in hindsight obviously,
given all the stuff with Bill Cosby, but at the time, I
believe The Cosby Show was stillthe number one show on that was.
A big show. It was a big show, but it was a
lot of like, you know, but I would, I think it'd be safe to

(17:19):
say that the writers of Family Matters make more residuals than
the writers of The Cosby Show right now.
I mean, why, why why was that? Was the did did Bill just have
something set up where the writers would not get as much as
they they were worth? Like no, because of because of
the incident, the value of the show went down.
Oh, I see. What financial?
Value of the show went down. Yeah.

(17:40):
You know, Family Matters has gotto be on like, I don't know, a
Cape BET plus about three or four other places.
It's still, it's an Evergreen, you know, and an Evergreen is a
thing I learned when I was firstthat as a pup writer, they said
the older brother said, what, you want to be want to be an
Evergreen show, the show that keeps paying.
And I go, OK, I'm like, well, itturns out, yeah, I was on one of

(18:03):
those, one of those that just keeps.
It's still generating. So it's an important piece of
Warner Brothers earnings, you know?
Oh, just to I'm at a a Jim Gaganstory.
I had never met Jim. And then when he the first day
he came on the show, I hear thisgentleman on a bullhorn saying

(18:24):
something like, Hey, everybody, I'm here, I'm here, I'm going,
who is this guy? And you know, a great guy,
talented, funny. What brought scripts together?
I mean, Steve's done them for years and just quite a
character. Wow.
So I let me, let me just see if I have this right.
Steve, were you, were you officially offered a job at
Cosby and went to Family Mattersinstead?
Is that how that went or? I had, I had literally within a

(18:47):
week, I had an interview with Cosby and I had a job offer from
Family, Family Matters. And I was just sort of was the
kind of thing where the offer came in and no offer came in
from the Cosby Show. And I was and I and this was my

(19:10):
second. This was, this was my second
dance with Cosby. And I was like, going, you know
what? I'm not going to uproot
anything. You know, this is this is this
show is going to be on for years.
And I just knew what I'm going because I knew the ratings from
the first season going, this is the show that stays on for a
long time. I just said I felt relieved.
But it was also working with Dave, who was great.

(19:32):
So because the, the reality is what happened was is that we did
season 2 and these two of the writers left or fired.
I don't know what the story was,but then I told Dave and Gagan
hired Jim Gagan because you knowthat that's his, that was his
friend too. So Jim started the third season
and we had a good time. We had a very, I mean the
writers room, but that was, we had a lot, a lot, a lot, pretty

(19:55):
good time. Great group.
Sorry, so so you're saying the ratings for season 1 of Family
Matters you saw were great and you thought going into second
season that? Actually, it's interesting, the
first the ratings weren't, I didn't, weren't very good, in
fact. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was
the. You know, the infamous if I
think Julio first appeared in episode 12 of the first scene

(20:18):
and just, you know, turned around.
Well, we knew there was something blowing up over there
with him. Yeah, you're going, there's
something blowing up over here, and you want to be at a place
where something's blowing up. So that was, you know, that's
what we did. That makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah.
So. So you were talking about the
momentum from episode 12, the end of the first season.
OK, OK. I thought you meant like before
Julio came on. I was confused.

(20:39):
OK. All right, All right, so.
And that. And that's interesting that you
say that, Steve, because, you know, we, I mean, someone like
me might think, oh, you know, you, you stick with or you
hinder on the show that is bigger at the time, which was
Cosby. You try to get a job there.
But it sounds like you were thinking more long term, like,
OK, this, this show's going to be hot.

(21:00):
This show's going to be on for along time.
This show's going to pay me residuals that will make it
worth it. So I I didn't think about it
that way. And also it's like I'm going, I
know, I know my boss. I know my boss is, I know what
he's like. And it's like I worked before,
you know, and so I ended up doing, you know, not only family
matters with him, but I did not come and Eddie with him too.
But yeah, I was just one of these things where I just sort
of, you know, I I I've been a, you know, Cosby like they they

(21:26):
flirted with me several times and was just sort of like it was
getting, you know, I don't know what kind of environment that
was. I do know after I left Silver
Spoons, an assistant, I didn't work with a mean a mean person
after that for my, my whole career, everybody was nice,
everybody's kind, everybody was supportive.

(21:47):
And I can tell you other writersdo not have the same experience.
But I had like, it was very, it was just like everyone's great.
You hear you hear horror storiesand same as Steve, I well had
one in in my very lucky career, I only had one bad experience
with the showrunners. What was that?

(22:09):
Yeah, I'd rather not say it was on on a show called Webster, but
there there's some very, very good, really good producers and
but but there were two that weren't so so I.
Would say I didn't. I remember 11.
I wrote 1 Webster. But I was going to ask about.

(22:29):
That and but I know he's talkingabout and they were notorious
all across town. It's like that.
Was everyone new? Everybody knew.
They were just like they were. They were notorious.
I don't know what they did, but they were notorious.
Wow. Yeah.
Because that's a good. Remember, there was only 100
shows back then, so it was a very small group of writers and

(22:51):
people. People, you know, you.
You if you were just like if youwere, if you were a jerk, you
know you'd know, but you'd you'dhear about it.
Yeah, you got around. Yeah.
Oh yeah, actually the guy had the guy had worked for on Silver
Spoons. The the bad guy had gone to
Valerie's family and he got fired from there.

(23:11):
Valerie. I'm sorry, Valerie who?
Valerie Harper Show. Oh yeah.
OK, OK. He got fired from there and we
all knew right away and but we also then someone said somebody
had gone to his parking space taking a sharpie and rid an
asshole on his all over his name.
Oh, that'll do it this. Is the kind of yeah.

(23:32):
There's still, there's still some Inga on Steve's hands.
But the guy who fired him, the guy who fired him, this guy
named Chip Keys. Good, nice guy.
I said. Chip, I got to have lunch with
you. Got to.
You got to tell me about that day.
I'll pay for lunch. And he did give me a breakdown

(23:53):
of the whole day and it was like, it was like drinking a
fine wine because really the theonly person that was mean to me,
the only person you know. And it's just like it's because
he you, you. I realized after a while I'm
like, like most people are really nice.
What is this guy's deal? It's like.
Like a like a verbally, like a just a verbally and emotionally

(24:14):
abusive person. That just that was the way of
the land. Absolutely.
And, and Steve and I have said to one another, you know, so
lucky to be in this business andthere's no reason for people to
be, you know, mean and yell at people.
And so it's, it's like sad. They were very it only happened
on one occasion. You know, I was like this one

(24:36):
day I was working on a film called Hanky Panky and the AD
told me take Gene Wilder over toget some posts, some some stamps
when the in Cambridge by Harvard.
So we walk with the post office and I'm like going this guy, I'm
with the big star. It's this team Wilder.

(24:57):
This is like just like this Young Frankenstein, you know,
just not that far away from that.
That's a big deal. So we're walking through
Cambridge and I'm looking aroundgoing no one's noticing him.
And I walk at the post office. Gene says I'd like some stamps.
The postmaster doesn't recognizehim at all, hands from the
stamps he pays. We walk out and I'm sitting here

(25:20):
going, I was nervous. I'm going, I got to take care of
this, this millionaire actor star, you know, I'm like, oh,
that was easy. That was nothing.
That was great. Now Sidney Poitier was directing
the movie. So the AD said to me, we changed
location to Central Square. And he said, just could you walk
Sidney to his car? And Central Square was where

(25:47):
most African Americans lived in Cambridge were in that area.
And so we walk up the car. I reach for the door handle.
It's locked. The teamster's going off
somewhere. We don't know where he is.
Sidney and I turn around and we see a sea of people coming
toward us. I go through the same with Gene
Wilder. This is cake.

(26:08):
No, no. I'm like going, oh, my God.
Now I'm going. Now I'm going, what am I going
to do? What am I going to do?
And then I don't, do I? I didn't have to do anything.
Sidney Poitier has been in this situation many a time.
Obviously, he just put on the Sidney Poitier smile.
And I kid you not, people step back.
They just step back because because he's an icon, like Comfy

(26:28):
Bogart, you know, Marilyn Monroe, he was an iconic and I
kind of say probably the only iconic person I've really ever
been with. But but yeah, but that was the
thing was like they step back. He just filed at them.
The teamster walked up, we off and off we went, all the same
day. It's all the same day.
The show I did in Toronto, My secret identity, we won an

(26:51):
International Film Award. The only reason I mentioned it
is Audrey Hepburn presented and I just, she was, as you can
imagine, just the nicest, just agreat slow dancer.
No, I'm just kidding. OK.
Well, that's The funny thing is the, that that Fred and I have
met. I mean, when someone posts on

(27:11):
Facebook, tell me all the famouspeople you met, people are met
with shock when I, when I put itdown because it's ridiculous.
Yeah, it's ridiculous what we met.
I mean, I've had Donna Summer singing right next to me and
that's unreal. Same thing with Pavarotti.
I hit a private concert with himon a show.
Yeah. When things like you going stuff

(27:32):
that most people never, ever, you know, it's like, it's like,
it's just not. That's not like you're trying
for this to happen. It just happened.
And I meant, I meant Gregory Peck wants To Kill a
Mockingbird. It's my favorite movie.
I was at a restaurant, a hot restaurant at the time, and I
was dating this young lady and she all of a sudden, she just
like, stopped in and was transfixed.

(27:53):
And I said, are you OK? And she just kind of pointed.
I turned around. It was Gregory Peck and his wife
having dinner with another couple.
And then I look at the couple and a gentleman I went to
grammar school with named RobertFinkelstein, who's an
entertainment lawyer, handles the Sinatra state and Groucho
Marx. So I went over and if Gregory
Peck had been a bad guy, I wouldhave been the nicest person in

(28:16):
the world. Yeah, he was very, very nice.
Oh my God, Were there any? Were there any special guest
stars on family matters that youguys met that kind of blew you
away in the same aspect? Oh.
Different levels of things, you know, They're all different
levels of things. Like I said, I was a Star Trek
fan and I end up casting. I don't know if you remember
this episode where there was a bulbous alien, Bulbous head
aliens, and it was the head alien.

(28:39):
And I was casting her in my show.
And we're going, OK, that's crazy.
This is something that was like,you know, out of my childhood.
And she's here, she's acting andlike, going.
So there's things like that. And just, you know, it's, oh, I
think the thing I think, and I sure will probably agree, we got
to cast some great comedy veterans like Tom Poston.
We're so lucky to have him. Can you talk about the episode

(29:01):
that he was in and and and what we may know him from?
Oh, Tom Poston was on the new Heart show.
Oh, OK. And he was a a comic legend and
I believe he played Mr. Lunet was was one of Steve's team.
Yeah, high. Yeah.
High school. He worked in the high school,
wasn't he? Yeah.
Mr. Lunet. Maybe something like that?

(29:24):
And the guy was like some it's ajoy because you go, you know how
to write for him and you know he's going to give you 100% more
than what you wrote. I love that.
And Fred, Fred Willard. Fred Willard.
Oh my God, Fred Willard. So, so funny.
Oh. My God, but that we but then we
did. It's like we we would sometimes

(29:45):
you'd be going, we'd be, we'd besitting there, the producer be
sitting on well, I'm going to cast a show where they're going.
She wouldn't make it hot. If we have to cast, we have to
get in the golf cart and drive all the way across Warner
Brothers right in the back and to the casting, which is fine.
But sometimes you're going, hey,can we just make an offer on
somebody not go down there? And we did that.

(30:07):
We like going. We had, we had people that we
liked and going and they were willing to come in for, you
know, X amount of dollars. But and also we did a kind of a
serious show called Find the Words where.
Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
Paul Winfield was the guest. Paul Winfield.
Exactly. Yeah, I wrote that episode and I
was stunned. We got Paul Winfield and see, it

(30:27):
was, I thought an incredible. But like since you never know he
does he make an offer? Yeah, it, it's, it's, it is,
it's, it's a bit shocking. You know, we did that.
You can make that offer and theyshow up and they're there and
you're going, wow, this is really, this is just crazy for
them. Now in the course of now in the

(30:49):
course of us taking casting, we get in the golf cart and Oh my
God, who you'd see just cross just driving the golf cart just
like what was the what was the thing where there was a did you
offer a ride to to a movie star?Oh God, we were Jim Gay and I
were going to cast and on a golfcart as she said and we're

(31:12):
walking, we see a young lady on the lot.
So we stopped the car and said, you know, would you like a ride?
And she said, oh, that's so niceof you.
So I get in the back of the golfcart, she gets in the front.
Jim Flores it I go flying off the golf court.
And so then I get back on and one of us said, oh, what?

(31:37):
You know, what brings you to Warner Brothers?
And she goes, oh, well, I'm hereto see it a star.
And she'd say it was, but it was, it was, you know, very
interesting. Thank God.
Do do you guys mind breaking down how each of you like write
a script that that's the, you know, in looking at all the

(31:58):
episodes that you've done with family matters.
That was just a key thing that that came to mind was like, how
do they, you know, break down the story, the characters, the
lines, like I'm I'm just interested in that kind of
process. You can, Steve, you can start.
Well, let's start with my favorite episode.
My personal favorite is driving,Driving call, call Crazy learns
how to drive. So that was really interesting

(32:19):
in the process where we're in the conference room at Sony and
I said, you know, Steve Jaleel'sturning 16, he's got to learn
how to drive. And that was sort of chuckles.
And then we go, yeah, you're right.
And then they go, But I said inner Cellars drove and one of
the Pink Panther was a weird three wheel car.

(32:40):
He kind of had a normal car, so all the guys were like scouring,
scouring, find the right car. It was like, remember that Fred?
We were like, we were like a frenzy trying to find the right
stupid car. Yeah, it was.
It was fun. And someone found the BMW
Isetta. And then in that process, then
what happens is then. So we have the idea.

(33:01):
And now the eight of us generally hate of us.
We sit on the table and we beginbuilding the story.
Yeah. And I think the beef story was
Carl with some blood pressure problems.
I believe that was what it was. Yeah, I think so.
Dave 2 climbers wanted said 321123.

(33:22):
What the heck is bothering me? Right.
That was that was Dave and he because a funny thing about Dave
was David wanted to be an actor and that was kind of helpful
because he know how to act out of scene.
Or if the actor didn't have it, he knew how to how to pot up,
portray it so they could see, oh, that's how you do it.

(33:42):
But yeah, so we built up the story.
Obviously I'm taking notes. I'd go off and write an outline
of that story. I get more notes and then I'm
sent off to teleplay for two weeks.
I'm where I'm not in the writersroom.
I'm I'm allowed just to write the script.
I don't have to come to the meetings or anything.

(34:03):
And then when it's done, then ina way, the real work happens
where all of us are pitching jokes, adjustments, you know,
and it's like it's like if your desire to be a writers, you want
us to have all your words. I think you've written films
that comes or not not the place for you.

(34:23):
I I learned that on what's happening now my first solo
credit and I'd written it. I I pitched like 8 ideas and the
label, they like 7. I was like a gunslinger, which
is crazy. And I just said I walked in Mike
Milligan and Jay Mariardi. Mike just passed away by the by
the way, but walked in to set the stage for the taping and

(34:47):
they like decided to see me. They shook my hand.
They said, hey, you did a great job.
There's still 4 pages of your dialogue in the script.
And it's a great thing to learn as a young writer, like going,
oh, OK, I'm part of the process,but not all of the process.
It's like I'm getting it to a certain point so they can do

(35:08):
what they do. And great thing to learn
starting off. No, that is, yeah, if I can.
I haven't heard of that. I mean, some scripts stay pretty
much. But talking about stories and
writing, so many times Steve andI are asked, you know, how do
you come up with your stories, which is, you know, great
question. Some it's, you know, life
experiences. Well, there's one case where

(35:31):
someone pitched, hey, why don't we do a camping show?
And you know, a lot of people said, Oh yeah, that's a good
idea. But I said, you know, I've seen
that so many times, so let's tryto try to come up with a new
way. I don't if you remember the
Steve so and I don't remember whose pitch it was, but it was a
great idea episode. The story was they go camping.

(35:54):
You know, it's going to be Carl and Eddie, But of course, Steve
comes along. Carl and Steve start kind of
arguing. OK, where are we going to pitch
the tent? Oh, somehow Steve wins.
So at the middle of the night, all of a sudden, a guys ago, a
water geyser just goes up, takesthe tent.
And the fact that we could do that on stage is just some of

(36:16):
the episodes we did were amazing.
Steve right with the. Oh yeah, we we.
We really intentionally, now that we're shooting on 35mm
film, we tried to make the show even more cinematic.
You know, we do a little bit extra, we do special effects you
couldn't really imagine in the 90s, but we would do those
things because we knew that added just a little touch, you

(36:39):
know, making it a little more cinematic.
Just trying to experiment with some some things.
So I think we did a, an episode where we did three like 3 love
stories because we realized thatin that 22 minute format,
structurally, we could mess around with things and we, you
know, now we'll do it all with all the all day long.

(37:01):
But it was like not many shows were trying to do that.
But we did stuff like that wherewe'd say, hey, yeah, we'll do.
I can't remember the episode's name.
It was like, I think it was like3 because it may be a
Valentine's show. It was like 3 separate like
vignettes that made-up a whole half hour.
So we were like, did stuff like that and I think we did.
Also stay we did hot rods to heck where we went on location

(37:24):
and yes, he's souped up as I said, and it's just yeah,
looking back, some of the the episodes we did were hard to
believe we they went. To they went to Paris, right,
got beat up and. Yeah, we we were the last night.
I wasn't sure if we should tell the story, but we're God is the

(37:47):
last night Rich Carell's directing that episode.
So we thought, OK, let's take some of the crew out for dinner.
So Planet Hollywood on the shop deli, say Rich and myself and
then a friend of Rich's female. We're walking to get a taxi.

(38:08):
All of a sudden we see 5 or 6 guys coming towards me, you
know, probably in their 20s. A guy comes up to me and starts
trying to get my wallet and justa natural reaction.
I push them away. He starts her me and two guys
hold him back. Two guys I didn't know came
behind me, sucker punched me. All of a sudden Rich crawling
and I'm I'm like 5-9 and Rich ismy height.

(38:33):
There's six guys in the Apparently we're in a fight with
six guys, which is. Oh my God.
The only thing I remember is slamming a guy into a car, he
goes down and then, you know, Rich, it's, it happened so fast.
I mean, we're so lucky they didn't have, you know, knives we
got. But the strangest thing to me is
they ran off without getting anything.

(38:55):
And you know, it's like like midgets fighting a behemoth and
so on. About 5 minutes later, some of
the crew comes out, you know, big guys and we go, hey guys,
nice timing. So we go to the hospital.
Yeah, I think broke his thumb. And, you know, I had a cut on my
forehead and stuff. So I get back to the hotel.

(39:15):
I'm wearing a white shirt. I take this perfect imprint of a
foot. Oh wow.
And it never went down. But it was just just so people
said, oh, I bet you hate, you know, going to Paris it no, it
could, you know, it could happenhere.
But it was it turned out, you know, with the three parter.
We shot an Eiffel Tower, Paris Opera House.

(39:35):
Amazing. Yeah, actually we'll talk to
finally about the the Paris experience and.
It wasn't. Recently came out What?
Oh my God. Well, Fred actually noticed
since we just wrapped up the ourseason 2 podcast re watch
process, we noticed you're writing credits on episodes like
Boxcar Blues, Dog Day, Halloween, Fast Eddie Winslow,

(39:56):
high hopes busted finding birds.Well, you know your stuff, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, we we dissect and
talk about each episode. So with Boxcar Blues, like to me
it was a powerful indication of how strong Steven Carl's dynamic
would be throughout the durationof the series.
In particular, there was a snortlaugh Symphony that they do on

(40:18):
the on the boxcar that I found very hilarious.
Can you talk about if you had that sort of long term dynamic
between them in mind? And also, like, how was it
choreographing writing in that Symphony?
Like just just talking? About well, you said it's a team
effort. You know, a lot of my stuff is
there and I, you know, I don't remember who did the the start

(40:39):
thing itself. But to answer your question,
that was the first episode I wrote.
It was so, so much fun. Yeah, I think that, I mean, it
didn't, you know, start the relationship, but it just, it, I
just, I was so happy to be able to, you know, write that
episode. And again, it's a team thing
and, you know, everyone contributed.
But it was. Yeah, a lot of it was my lot.

(41:01):
Of thing, The thing is when Julio and Reggie performing as
professionals, you know, you've got it.
You know, it's funny. You know, that's like there, you
know, there's a sweet spot. This is always going to work.
This is why I think of shows like Modern Family are just
extraordinary because you take every actor in that show and you

(41:22):
combine them with any combination.
They're all sweet spots. And that's why I said I called
that that show is is it's legendary.
I don't think anyone could ever do a show as good as that again.
But because the sweet spots are important thing.
See the thing you should put Waldo with anybody.
It's fine. Yeah, my dad, you put Waldo and
Jaleel. I mean, I mean, it's just, it's

(41:43):
crazy, you know, they're just weall Myra.
Myra was a great combination up with her.
Well, with Myra, Laura and and Steve.
But those combinations are very,very important to writing a
sitcom. And if you have one combination,
you are sold. And you and you guys had
multiple, I mean Eddie Waldo. Eddie so lucky because to have

(42:09):
just to write a show like that and then have the ACT, you know,
it was like with with happy daystoo and and others that you just
know they're going to just, you know, kill it and just do it.
Makes the job easier. It does.
It does that. You go and you go because it's
sort of like you're going, oh, if you're going, like I said,
was driving. Call crazy.
Everyone knew Carl's got to teach Steve to drive.

(42:31):
That's funny. Yeah, that's just funny.
It's like that's like this is going to be really bad.
I did one where it was, this is I was online and I saw on the
decider.com that my Christmas episode of Failing Matters was

(42:52):
considered the best Christmas episode.
And was that the one? I have my IMDb here.
I can't remember the name. Was it the one from season 2,
Have yourself a Merry Winslow Christmas or was a different
episode? I think.
I did Miracle on Elm Street Gemini, so it wasn't that one.
Wasn't that one, but the point was in that.

(43:16):
So I thought I thought it was like a number one this list and
I'm like, OK, and Fred will tellyou this like we are gobsmacked
by the interest in the show after so much time.
You know, this is it's surprising.
So I decided to watch the episode.
And the episode was about it's Christmas time.
Jaleel and and Reggie are on theL the, the subway and the train

(43:43):
breaks down and everyone's a they're all bitter Chicagoans,
angry about everything. And Jaleel strives to bring them
Christmas cheer. Yeah.
And, and it was just like sitting here going, that is the
one the lady from Star Trek was on that episode.
So I'm like looking at one of the things is when I one of the
things I've found sometimes is Ilook back at episodes.

(44:04):
I go, wait a minute. I worked with this actor for
years. He's my favorite movie.
I never talked to him about it. I get mad at myself sometimes.
I'm like, talk to him about it, you know?
But you're so caught up in making the show, you just don't
think about those things. Yeah.
I didn't have so-called sink or swim where Carl Stevens going to
fill high school if he doesn't pass a swimming test.

(44:27):
So Carl, you know, teach teachesEddie Mecca from LeBron Shirley
guest starred and it was just again, that was so much fun to
see their, you know, relationship.
I love that. Oh my God, that's so great.
So, you know, kind of jumping back to the the Christmas
episode of it all. I've always wondered when
sitcoms have Christmas episodes,is that something where the

(44:48):
writers are like, all right, it's Christmas time, let's come
up with a Christmas episode? Or is it more so like ATGIFABC
requirement that like you know, the whole night of shows are
going to have a Christmas themednight?
Like you better have a Christmasepisode for your show then we
just did it. Just did it, didn't we?
Yeah, we just. But no, that's a that's a very
good question. Like for example, did the
network say, OK guys, you you have to and I think usually they

(45:10):
did. They didn't say you have to do
it, but I think they always. We Yeah.
Expecting one, but as ever said oh shoot, do we have to do 1?
But. But you know, The thing is, and
interesting, the way Tom and Bobset up the operation, we really
didn't have to deal with the network much, right?
We don't have to deal with Warner Brothers that much.
Warner Brothers figured out, oh,they know.

(45:33):
They know what they're doing. Leave them alone.
Yeah, they did. Yeah.
And I'm sorry, Michael Warren and Bill Beckley were very, you
know, they would deal with the network too.
But yeah, we're, we're pretty much, you know, we were
concentrating on the, you know, getting the shows out so.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like it's, it's as you

(45:56):
know, today, I know there's a lot of talk about executive
interference and where we are inthe business right now.
But boy, on that show, there's like it was just hands off.
We just did the show. And that's very rare, obviously.
And then, yeah, it's even worse today.
And I'll add also that we would leave at 6:00 PM every night
except film night. You'd be in at 10, out at six.

(46:18):
Yes. And I I know Rich Corel having
him on the podcast a while ago. He was talking about the
contrast between you guys and say a friends where like their
rehearsals, like their rehearsaldays will will be fine.
They probably will get out in the middle of the afternoon, but
their tape nights were notoriousfor not letting out until like
2. And pointing hours and hours of

(46:38):
Rich, yeah, Rich, Rich, a good friend, godfather and daughter
and just amazing, amazing director gentleman he got, he
directed, as you know, so many family matters.
David Duquan was the Clint Eastwood of showrunners.
Yeah. I remember we were filming a
scene he went to. It was like 3-3 cameras.

(47:02):
We filmed the scene and Dave said moving on the next scene.
Well, you looked at him like Dave, that was one take.
We got it. He said we got it and we're
like, but what a lesson that was.
I learned that lesson. I went and worked in the
verdict. I'm like, so excited because
it's Sidney Lumet, who I'm a bigfan of.
It's Paul Newman, right? It's like this is, you know,

(47:24):
it's a legendary film when they're making it.
You just know. Yeah.
And the first day we're filming up at the State House in Boston,
and his first scene and he goes take one, take two, take three,
turn the camera around, take one, take two, take 3.
Wow. And this is an Oscar nominated
movie. And it was a real lesson of
like, going this whole thing of taking a lot of takes of stuff

(47:45):
is, is nonsense. Yeah.
These actors are so good. They're getting it on the first
take. Yeah, you're there, you know.
Do you think when shows like Friends stay, we have long tape
nights or take multiple takes orconstantly rewrite jokes, Do you
think that's a reflection of, OK, like we're a really hot show
and we really have to put ourselves to high standards.
So we're going to we're just going to beat this thing down to

(48:07):
a pulp until we get the perfect joke.
Do you think that's part of whatit is into it?
Because you guys had a really hot show on Family Matters and
you guys could have had that same mindset.
But somehow even with the hotness of the show, you were
like, all right, let's just keepit moving.
Let's just keep it moving. So I wonder.
Yeah, go ahead. I.
Think it's the difference between having the confidence
and lack or lack of confidence. If you have the confidence to

(48:27):
know this is this will be this will be funny.
I remember I remember on a show we had done a run through and
the show didn't seem that funny.And the show owner said you've
heard the joke three times. What's why you're not laughing?
And I'm like going we're all nervous.
We get to tape night audience comes in, they're laughing their
asses off because he knew he isn't.
He knew that. Yeah, this is.

(48:49):
So the joke was funny and a jokethat's funny on Monday,
innocently unfunny on Wednesday.It's unfunny because you've
heard, you know, the joke and you can't let that define your
decision making because it's like you laughed the first time.
Yeah. When they hear it first, they'll
laugh. They'll laugh too.
So is that stuff like that? So I said confidence is a is a
big reason. Confidence is why, you know you.

(49:12):
Yeah. You'd go home earlier.
I mean, I remember one time Davewas so ahead of the game, he
said we were like Bat, one of the Batman movies had come out
and we were working, but he saidlet's let's get some tickets,
let's go see a movie. And we bunked off and saw a
movie because we were that far ahead that but he.
Was, I mean, there were, there were times we would spend quite

(49:35):
a few minutes on, you know, getting a better joke and then
sometimes you go back, you know,go back to the thing you spent
20 minutes on, But that, that was very, but I've been on other
shows where you'll spend so muchtime And, and the reason for
that is it's, you know, they want you drive for perfection.

(49:55):
You're not going to get it, but you want to do, you know, we're
hired to do the best job we can.If you, if you one has to stay
late. It never bothered me.
Sometimes it can be overdone, like the friends shooting night
was right and we didn't have to experience that.
And you guys were like, oh, practically right next door to
them, right? What are the Warner Brothers?
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Well, we were literally, we wereliterally next door to next door

(50:16):
to Clint Eastwood, right next tous.
And also go ahead and see this. I'm going to tell, OK, we got
two stories about this. I'm going to tell my story and
you can tell you what you're worrying about the mother, OK,
your mother. My story is like, so Fred, Gary
Mentier and I and maybe Jim are standing on the at the one of

(50:37):
the bungalows at Warner Brothers.
Clint Eastwood leaves his officeMel El Paso and he's walking
like away from us. The first, he's got a kind of a
funny walk, and then Garmin tears says you want to go tell
him. See what happens.
That's so God I don't. I fortunately don't recall that.

(50:57):
But there it was. It was just like, you go.
But he did have a funny walk andit was like, like, wait, so you
tell yours? That's so funny.
Now you said the mother one. Which one's the mother one?
The mother 1 was like OK Clint had the death parking spot on
the. Line.
Oh right, I got it right. Then OK, go ahead.

(51:18):
Thanks. Dad was working at Universal and
for some reason my mother went by to see him and for comes in
and Dad goes, oh, you know, goodto see you.
And you know, for some reason, you know, where did you park?
And he goes, all right, I parkedin Clint Eastwood's space.
Not a good idea. So he goes to you.

(51:40):
Know fly out of your chair, you fly out.
Of your chair and Clint Eastwoodsays something like hey, hey,
you're you're parked in my spot.Dad says, oh, Mr. Eastwood.
Yeah, I'm sorry, but on my wife part and it's I don't tell me if
this is how you recall. I think Clinton was either
bumped into the car, like the end of the car or something,

(52:01):
something like that. But it was, yeah, a lesson not
to. And then one other story.
I think Steve remembers 12 There's a bass George Clooney's
doing ER and there's a basketball court, you know,
right. As you know, and I I knew
George, you know, not by name, but you know, he saw me a lot.
And one time he, he, we're, so we're watching to the, you know,

(52:24):
run through and George calls me over and goes and he's sorting
this cute little puppy. And he goes, now you've got to
get a puppy. All these girls flock to you.
And I said, George, give me the puppy.
You don't need the puppy. It was so refreshing.
A guy that you know would say. Oh yeah, Clemens flock.
To you like he needs a puppy, George.

(52:44):
So there was this Family Matterscurse that every show that was
put next to us on the soundstagewould get cancelled.
No, it went. On for you.
It went on for years. So then we moved to Warner
Brothers and ER was put next to us and of course that's the
exception. That was the exception.
But I remember walking on and George Clooney was there and he

(53:06):
goes, hi, I'm George. I'm George.
He says to me he's like, I work an actor right now.
I'm like I'm Steve Langford. So every day whenever I got
walked in this hey George, hey Steve.
We hang out, talk the guy. Don't.
The amazing thing, and other people have said this before, is
that he's the guy who went from being a working actor to a huge
movie star. Never changed.

(53:29):
Never changed. Was the same nice guy.
Yeah, he was the guy. Grateful for what he has.
This, like his partner of Brent Heslow, did a couple of acting
jobs on happy days. Oh, really?
Yeah. But yeah, nicest guy.
Just nicest guy. Speaking of Happy Days, Fred
Fox, you you, you had talked about your experience on that

(53:49):
show. Can you talk about because we
had we had Bill Bickley on recently on the podcast, his
experience talk about his experience with Gary Marshall
and what Gary Marshall taught him.
How about you like what? What did you learn from Gary
Marshall on your experience writing for Happy Days and Le
Bron and Shirley? Well, I'm gone.
I'm so glad you asked that because I kind of wanted to

(54:10):
bring it up. Gary.
Gary's just an incredible mentor.
I mean, he started, you know, Logan's so, so many people.
And he was Brian Ovatt and I just wrote a book called Believe
it or not, it's been 50 years since happy days debut wrote a
book called 50 years of happy Days.
And we we talk about this stuff.But but Gary was just so he had

(54:35):
a saying that family is more important than show business.
He he just just started so many people's careers.
They do kwan. Yeah, as as Dave did.
They've worked on happy days as well.
Laverne and Shirley. Laverne and Shirley gotcha.
But yeah, Gary, as we talked about in the book, it was just

(54:59):
learned so, so much. You know, since Dad was a
writer, I knew kind of the process.
I mean, just this says a lot about Gary.
When I left, when Cindy Williamswent home, you know, after
rehearsal, I'd go to the writer's room and at that time,
the new, the new person. When you're going over the
strip, if we're trying to get a funnier line, I couldn't just

(55:22):
pitch it because I was like the new guy.
So I would write, write it. Write the joke suggestion on a
little piece of paper, hand it to a real writer.
He or she would pitch it. If it bombed, they wouldn't turn
around and say, oh, it's a stupid new guy.
But if it got a huge laugh and go, hey, that, that was Fred's.
So after a while, you know, I could just pitch.

(55:44):
But what's interesting, because I've, I've heard stories that
just brutal, like 1 friend of mine started on a show and he
pitched something and it didn't get a laugh.
And one guy said, Oh, that's terrible.
How did you, how did you get this job?
I mean, if that happened to me, it would have been I would have
been devastated. But you know, it was very Gary
was very and and what we talk when Brian start on the show.

(56:09):
Oh, the way this is kind of off track with the way Brian got on
Happy Days is mind boggling. Gary had a basketball game every
Saturday and all kinds of peopleto go.
So a friend of Brian's invited him to the game.
Brian guarded Gary and blocked some shots.
And after the game, Gary said, you know, what do you do?

(56:30):
He goes, well, I'm a writer. I've done some little, you know,
some things. He goes, so call Diane, my
assistant. So Brian goes in and pitches and
that's how he got on the show. If you hadn't been playing
basketball, you know, Brian, pardon me.
And then obviously brought, I mean, when I was with Brian for,

(56:51):
you know, so many years, he could just, I have a feeling he
would go on to be an incredible,you know, director.
You know, I did the Flintstones movies and Jingle all the Way
and many, many others. But I'm sorry, back to your
question. I mean, Gary's just so learned
so, so much from. I think is.
Gary's Michael and Bill on family matters.
And it just kept, you know, you keep learning.

(57:14):
Yeah. I think The thing is Gary's
hand, even though he wasn't doing Family Matters, it was
over the show. Yeah.
And he would show up sometimes he'd come by hold court.
That was great. Yeah, people like you said that
because it's like he. So at one point we were doing.
We're on the same floor, step bystep.
And Gary's sister was the producer of Step By Step.

(57:37):
Yeah, Ronnie. Ronnie Allen So we got to know
them pretty well. But Gary was some kind of a
genius. I mean I there is a story about
there's a documentary on Netflixabout the making a Pretty Woman.
You directed it. Yeah, yeah.
The script that was written and what was shot are two different
things. And there's also some.

(57:57):
I believe that Gary Marshall hadthe movie in his head and he was
so brilliant that he had it in his head.
So the everyone wasn't sure whatwas doing.
In fact, at one point they went to the Jeff Katzenberg and said
we don't know if we got we got amovie here.
And then Katzenberg just hired an editor.
They put together some scenes and said it's fine.
He said he was so smart he couldcome to the set and know what

(58:20):
what had happened that day. He had the holes flipped in his
head. And when you said and when you
say that Garry Marshall, like his identity, his sort of brand
is all over the family matters, what?
What do you mean by that? What?
What exactly? Well, Dave, Dave first, Dave
Dukeland's first job was with him.
So he he been toward Dave. And I think a lot of the rules

(58:40):
that Dave had were Gary Marshall's rules, like a rule
that he had was don't tell me something is wrong unless you
got a fix. You don't want people
complaining. And that's a very smart, smart,
smart rule. He said, oh, you got to say, oh,
this is this. But I think we could do this.
If you just sit there and say, Idon't like that, that would not
fly. That would not no, no, no, no,

(59:02):
no, no you. And that was a great rule.
But there were, you know, there were other things.
There were a lot of a lot of rules.
And you going this because he was mentored by this really, you
know, top producer. I mean, he wasn't talking about
he was brought in to fix Laverneand Shirley.
When the actors were having theywere having troubles, they
brought them in and he settled them down.

(59:24):
But therefore. Right.
I'm sorry also. And Gary, Gary on Happy Days
started a softball team because we talked about, you know, the
show as a family and it sounds corny, but it really was.
We went on, we played in charitygames.
We played on to you, the Castle and Brian Levant, myself and
some others played the US troopsin Okinawa and Germany.

(59:45):
They just brought, brought us closer.
He wanted us to be, you know, not know one another, just on or
off the set. It was just an incredible
experience. And did Laverne and surely have
their own baseball team or not so.
There was a buzz, but it's so funny.
Even Gary, you know, Gary said happy days and such, you know, I

(01:00:10):
mean there, you know, there'd besome problem as well.
But the difference between the Laverne and Shirley set and
happy days because I, I started on Laverne and Shirley at night.
I started I think 2 weeks beforethe IT went on the air.
Huge ratings as you know #1 and I'm coming to work the next

(01:00:30):
time. I think, wow, people are going
to be so happy. And they were.
But you know, some of the fightsthey'd have on this end of
Cindy, who started me in the business, as I mentioned, just a
wonderful, funny, generous lady.And but boy, some of the you
know. I mean, I pulled up some stuff
on the website and I want you totell me if it's true, Fred,

(01:00:50):
because you, you worked on, I believe you just worked on one
episode of that show, correct? No, I worked quite a while.
I just wrote one episode. I see for quite a while.
It's I started February, I'm a brand Shirley and then I start
on Happy Days in September and Imentioned some self help, you
know if I know. I was reading that Cindy

(01:01:12):
Williams feared that Penny Marshall would get preferential
treatment because her brother Gary was one of the creators.
So she demanded top billing and to appease both actresses, it
was decided that both of their names would appear on the screen
at the same time. While Marshall's name appeared
on the left side Williams, his name was higher up on the right.
But this wasn't enough for Williams.

(01:01:32):
In 1977, she complained to TV Guide that the writers gave
Marshall more lines before along, the two lead actresses
were fighting over the square footage of their dressing rooms
and the cast of Happy Days who set was right next to theirs.
Because sometimes you're fighting on the next stage.
Does all of that seem accurate? No, I would, I mean definitely
you could hear them probably, but to my knowledge, she, they,

(01:01:58):
Cindy never demanded top billing, but that, you know,
that could have. I wasn't in those negotiations,
but the one thing it was true was when the show started, Penny
was getting all the physical jokes and and Cindy would say,
well, Gary, you know, I think I could do this too.
And then finally he said, you know, and obviously she could do

(01:02:20):
it. And they're, you know, and then
fortunately he ended up being, you know, very good friends
because, yeah, there there was some depth.
And when a gentleman named BobbyHoffman was a dialogue coach and
he left to do a movie at Disney called Freaky Friday, and he
recommended that I would be the dialogue coach.
And that that was always interesting because they didn't

(01:02:41):
want, they weren't fond of running line, shall we say.
So that way. So one time Cindy and I kind of
did this thing. We were running lines and Cindy
said something like, well, Fred,I just, you know, I don't want
to do that. And I said, Cindy, you're doing
it right now. And they were like stunned.
They thought, oh, gosh, this is nice guy just yelled at Cindy.
And we had to kind of set it up and stuff.

(01:03:02):
But it was, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was.
But fortunately, both were, you know, just wonderful physical,
you know. Yeah, I mean I.
Yeah, go ahead. I sat my nephews and nieces down
to watch a Laverne and Shirley last year.
It was the near the near Mexico episode.

(01:03:22):
Hilarious. Yeah.
I never saw them laugh harder. You know, it's it's just like
you go. It was hilarious.
And I going it's like, but it's like it's it's actually ageless
comedy really is. But I remember Dave talking
about Laverne and Shirley, and Iremember him saying again, it's
like Dave was a disciplinarian in a subtle way.

(01:03:43):
So when he came to learn, Shirley said to the the the the
pair of them, this is the deal. No throwing scripts into the
trash, trash can. You read it?
And if it's bad, it's bad. It's good, It's good, but read
it. So we know.
So we know. Did we do well?
And if we didn't do well, we're going to fix it.
I guess it was OK after that. Yeah, Dave.

(01:04:05):
Yeah, Dave got there after I did.
But one episode where they meet Fabian, the end when just Cindy
was, you know, they're so oh, hestarted singing and, you know,
Penny grabs his leg and then Cindy starts hitting her head on
the floor. Just one of the funniest scenes
I've seen. It's just physical.
When physical comedy comes together, it's just magic.

(01:04:28):
Yeah, magic. It's like, it's like it's just,
you know, it's sort of like, I mean, I think we did great
physical comedy on family matters.
Yeah, I actually want to ask you, Steve, about the Season 2
episode that you wrote Flash Pants, where Carl enters the
policeman charity dance contest,breaks his back and there's some
physical comedy there at the endand the climactic dance scene

(01:04:50):
with his like rival police partner.
And also great physical comedy, like when he's like hanging by
the swinging kitchen door with someone like Reginald Val
Johnson, who like my me and my Co host Andrew have talked over
and over about how he's great. He's seems to be underrated,
especially in terms of like in in relation to Julio.

(01:05:10):
I feel like Reginald sometimes doesn't get the credit that he
deserves in terms of how he could, you know, you know,
certain facial expressions or just certain ways of speaking
lines. Like, he just knows how to hit
those comedic and dramatic beatsas well as he can.
And like, when you're working with a seasoned talent like
that, is it one of those things where you still got to like,

(01:05:34):
detailed, like right on the script?
Like, OK, you take this physicalcomedic beat.
You take that physical comedic beat.
Or is Reginald the type of actorwhere you could just kind of
write some vague and generic things and then you can trust
that he'll just put some extra spice on it, if that?
Makes sense sometimes like I would say in the script like
flash pants. I would bet a lot of it was
found on the floor that the directors, they they added on

(01:06:00):
the floor. So we come down to run through
some time to see stuff that we hadn't written, you know, but
they knew we were going to laugh.
So the directors are key component of the of this process
and we had some great ones. We did.
We really did. Right, I'm sorry speaking to

(01:06:20):
that. I just rich girl and I are, you
know, still best friends. And it's funny, he told me
something I never even knew likea couple weeks ago, that he he
really brought a lot of stuff tothe character of Urkel.
He suggested. I forgot to whom?
I think you related it to like Jerry Lewis.
So Jaleel like your your your little Jerry Lewis.

(01:06:41):
Yeah, yeah. And he, Rich added a lot of the
physical comedy and, you know, bumping into stuff.
And so, yeah, as you've said, you know, some directors add a
lot, some nuts, but yeah, some just really, really.
They really bring it like I was,I was on a pod quite listening

(01:07:02):
to a podcast from Frasier and they it was Ted, Ted Danson.
And I forget that, I forget the other actor's name.
They were talking No, no, no. The other?
The other bartender. Oh, Woody Harrelson.
Woody Harrelson, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Everybody knows your name. Yeah.

(01:07:22):
And so, yeah, so. And ironically, as a strange
thing, the woman in the main titles of Cheers, who's wearing
shorts and is walking in the shot in the main title is the
woman that hired me in my first movie.
Wow. That's that's a small.
World. Yeah, he did location thing for
the the open those shots and shewas in she was an extra in it,

(01:07:44):
but. I think you you bought her the
shorts I think. But but what he talked, they
talked about how James Burrows would add stuff and he thought,
I would have thought everything was was written.
But like there was one episode of Cheers where Diane Chambers

(01:08:04):
got angry and frustrated and shemarched out of the out of the
out of the bar. Then Carla is sitting up by the
hat. The coat rack, irons coat is on
the rack and you see the door open and her hand, Diane's hand
reaching for the coat. And the what Jim Burroughs did
was he told Carla to grab the hoat rack, the coat rack and

(01:08:28):
slowly pull it away from her. That's the kind of stuff where
you're going as a writer, you'renot going to.
You can't see that necessarily. You might, but you might not.
But when you're on the floor andyou're doing it, and frankly
you're with a lot of funny people, you know, stuff happens
and you know during. During our run throughs you know
we would see suggest some physical things and that's why

(01:08:51):
we all went to the runsters to work and what isn't work and
what to add. Yeah, I was gonna ask if there
were moments like that in FamilyMatters that that that had that
sort of thing where if you put the actors up on their feet and
sort of play around with the script more, you find those
moments like that, whether it belike, you know, I don't know,
Steve following Carl to the doorand Carl is looking back,

(01:09:12):
wondering why he's following him.
And then Steve is just kind of doing his walk following.
But yeah, little moments like that.
Yeah, but it's yeah, it's fun, fun adding things, especially,
you know, when that shoot night,it's a huge, huge laugh.
And that's always. I only had one which I thought
was a scary week. An actor who had a big part in
the episode comes the table reading and bombs at the table.

(01:09:32):
Oh no, just like bombs. Known actor go to the run
through. He's still not there on Tuesday,
I think it was and goes and Davesays I may have to fire this
guy. And he's like, and he's still a
very well known actor today, right?
Do we have the actor or no? I'll just say when he's
interviewed, he sounds kind of crazy and that's all I'll say.

(01:09:53):
That narrows it down. That's like going sounds really
crazy. Oh my God.
Anyways, So what it was was thathe wasn't thinking about all of
us and the rest of the cast. He was sitting everything for,
for, for, for film. He was just walking through it.
And then when he came, when the film came on, the cameras came
on. He did he he did the show.
But Dave had a tough decision right there.

(01:10:15):
But he finally figured it out. Whatever it worked out.
But it was like, I was like, since then I've always thought,
OK, this guy's nuts. And it had proven over and over
and over again in the public. And you go like, oh, God, yeah.
I actually heard someone saying,oh, I'm starting, starting to
film with this guy next week. I'm going.
And I was sitting going. And I'll say that it was Steve.

(01:10:39):
What? Not really.
No, it was you, Steve Lankford, It was you.
No, no, it was like, no, it was just like, but this, it was just
like, it was one of these thingsof like, what's going on here?
I'm on this out of control bus because this guy's not
delivering. And we'd now I don't think we
ever fired an actor midweek. I don't think, I don't think we

(01:11:01):
ever did. No, never did.
That was a close one. That was a close call.
An actor being selfish. Generally, the actors really are
feed, feed off each other and they want to work with each
other and try to make this thinghappen.
You know, that's been most the case that I've seen.
But this guy was like, he was coming from the planet.
We also the actor I've I've heard people's that had a little

(01:11:23):
part on family matters and yearslater they'll say, you know,
cast treated them, you know themvery well, which is, you know,
obviously very important. Same with Happy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, I mean, I don't know if you
remember one of the guest stars that we interviewed, actually,
you know, two of the guest starswe interviewed from they were in
Season 1 episodes before you guys were on, you know, Jacques

(01:11:44):
Bolton, who played an idol, a basketball idol of of Eddie and
Carl's in a season 1 episode, hetalked about how great he was
treated by the cast. Merson, who was in a, I think
the maybe the 8th episode of thefirst season where she was one
of the professional contractors when Carl was clumsily trying to
like, build a bathroom for his mother.
I mean, she she she had great things to say about the cast.

(01:12:05):
So, yeah, I mean, I think it says a lot when everybody who
has guest starred on the show has said, wow, like, what a
professional, lovely working, lovely cast to work with.
And you know, it was funny when I was working on silver spoons.
So I'll get back to filming, man, I'm going I'm going back to

(01:12:25):
it. But no, you're good comparison
is like was like when they're filming, they make a lot of
mistakes. They have to go back and go back
and go back. Actually was sort of
disheartening to me at a certainpoint as a as a young writer.
I mean, I was like, what? Gosh, just like, so a friend of
mine said, Hey, I got to take itto cheers.
You want to go see it? Sure.
So you're going to see Cheers camera, which episode it was.

(01:12:47):
But it was like it was the way it was supposed to be.
They came in, they hit their marks, they did the scene moving
on, hit their marks. It's like, oh, oh, this is the
way it's supposed to be. Yeah, it wasn't like it wasn't
like Friends where they shipped in to audiences.
No, it was like going, it was like we was boom, boom, boom.
Oh, oh, oh, this is great. I do want to do this.

(01:13:09):
And then I came to family matters and family matters was
just like that. We were just like, hit the
marks, do the scene, moving on. There's like this totally
professional and of course, hilarious to boot.
But it was like, it was just like this.
It was the situation I kind of dreamed of, of like, yeah, I
want to be in a situation where the actors are pros, like
cheers. Because those guys were like,

(01:13:30):
they didn't, they didn't screw around.
They were like, they got the jobdone.
You came in and I think maybe we're there for an hour, you
know? But he's just like, but they're
just they. It was, it was.
Yeah, it was. Definitely more than an hour,
but. Yeah, I mean, but it was you did
not go away on chairs. It was not eaten.
We were out of there relatively because it early evening.

(01:13:51):
Yeah, Oh yeah, definitely. It was just a sidelight on
Boxcar Blues, Mark. When Baker directed it, you know
it was not. For perfect strangers, yeah.
And. I forgot that he directed.
Yeah, that might have been his first.
And then Jason Bateman observed what for a while, a couple of.
Jason Bateman, Yeah, he directedan episode in like 1997.
I forgot. What it was called?
What? Was that about, well, how did

(01:14:11):
that happen? Well.
Just put the this from my personal perspective.
I'm on Silver spoons, I'm an assistant and Jason Bateman is
constantly sneaking up and popping from scaring me.
He's like 13 years old and yearslater you come and I believe he
may have directed one of my episodes.
I can't remember but and we haveto later hired him, Malcolm and

(01:14:35):
Eddie's. He's amazing guy, amazing
talent. I mean, frankly, any actor who
can direct, their intellect is you have to, you have to be very
smart person. Because as a writer, we're much
more, we're not subjective. We're not really subjective.
We're not really looking at ourselves.
We're more objective, get the job done, make this thing

(01:14:56):
happen. But for an actor that can
direct, they have to switch between objective and
subjective. There they go.
They have to turn off, turn off the subjective.
That's gone. I'm a director now apparently
hard to do had read. So this interview with Michael
Caine who had this video and acting and he does some
incredible stuff that the technique of what he would do
these things, little subtle things you do for that.

(01:15:18):
You know, the editors need this.I'll do this thing.
Just you go like you can't believe what a technician this
guy is. And the editor said to him, and
this is where I learned this. He goes, Oh my Michael, you know
so much about why haven't you directed?
Oh, oh, my dear boy. No, I'm subjective completely.
That's an objective personality.I'm not that.
And it's like he knew that. Oh, interesting.
Oh, he's fully aware of it. So a lot of actually fully aware

(01:15:40):
of it. And some would never do it
because they know that's not me.But the ones that can do it,
wow. And I work with Jason on a show
called It's Your Move that Ron Levitt, Michael Moy, did, you
know, Married with children. And you could see Jason was, you
know, so good and was wasn't surprising he couldn't.

(01:16:01):
So actually bouncing off of Malcolm and Eddie, Steve, your
experience working on that show?I remember watching the the
reruns when when I was a kid growing up.
And I think what always seems tobe like the most recent headline
about that show is like, you know, Malcolm Jamal Warner will
go on say like The Breakfast Club radio show and talk about

(01:16:24):
how he wasn't in love working with that show.
Because I guess he was comparingit to the, the, the, the, the
writing standard that was set inhis mind by his experience on
the Cosby Show. So I wanted to know what your
thoughts were on that because itseemed like Malcolm when he was

(01:16:45):
talking about his experience on the show, came up from it from
experience of like, oh, they were like leaning in on
unfortunate black stereotypes onthat show.
And that's not what Bill Cosby did on his show.
So what was your experience? Cuz I mean, I, I, I found it a,
a fun show to watch. I, I love Malcolm, I love Eddie
Griffin. So what was your experience

(01:17:07):
riding on that show And did Malcolm bring any of that energy
to the set? Like what was your experience?
I would say it was a difficult set.
Oh. I would say that I don't think
he can. Eddie got along.
Why was that? Well, you know, again, he grew
up with Cosby and a different system of writing and a kind of

(01:17:36):
a newer, a different approach. But that was that that's unique
to that, right? He what he would what you you're
not going to get the same thing on another show.
Well, I mean it's like hearing it's we did.
We came in the second season, the 2nd or the 3rd and fourth
seasons, and I'm pretty proud ofwhat we did.

(01:17:59):
We did. We did the top of winger witch
project. So we did a whole kind of
hidden, I mean lost, lost camerakind of thing.
We, we experimented with stuff. We did a lot of experimentation
almost those, those last few seasons.
But you know, it's like it's comparing the two shows is, you

(01:18:21):
know, it doesn't make any sense.And it's like you're, you're.
And I found I think we had to work harder than, say, in family
Matters to get there because I don't think there was a sweet
spot on the show. Really.
I don't. I don't think there was no.

(01:18:42):
So how did? How did it last as long as it
did? Because it had a decent run.
For 88 episodes, but it was sortof like what it was was that we
had to be more story intensive, you know, up the game.
You had to have a bigger idea for an episode.
And so we become a bigger ideas to compensate.
But you know, I was it was with the writers, first season

(01:19:09):
writers. I was, I was running, I was
running the table and on that show for the first time and I
had one of the writers was or Eddie's friends who was like a
potential HR nightmare. So I'm like sitting here on my
eyes, like on this guy, like, don't you do that?
And because I got I got women onstaff and I'm like, don't you

(01:19:32):
pull anything right. And he was one day he talks
about how and and using a vernacular, yes, about writing
for the porno porno, the porno awards, whatever they call those
things. But he didn't use he used a
colorful term. And the women just kind of like

(01:19:54):
I'm like, my heart drops like, oh shit, right.
And the women so interestingly, like it's so ridiculous.
They start laughing. Like what?
Like what is this guy said down.But it was like and he would but
he was gone the next season. But we had a actually a pretty
good time. My favorite time on Mark
Barnetti was we would tape 2 shows on a Friday night.

(01:20:17):
We took an early show like maybeat 4, have dinner, take a short
step long day. So Brigette is Dave Dukeland
running the show so things. Are very quickly, so it's like
faster day, yeah. So it's like, so we're sitting
there and the writer, the, the right, my, my, the writing staff
and I would go and we watch Canon reruns of Canon between

(01:20:38):
shows and the show's so ridiculous now.
It's just so ridiculous. You know, it's like, it's so
dated. We would be, you put like 6
comedy writers room watching Canon.
It's hilarious. We're just like just, we're
finding jokes everywhere. It's just like, and one of the
guys was a comedian, so he's just ripping it up.
It was like, it was our thing, our go to thing.
Every Friday night we watch Canon.

(01:20:59):
Yeah, it was just like, it's just.
But that's part of the joys whenthe joys of working with comedy
writers. You laugh so much, you laugh.
God, you laugh. And that's what made the.
I assume that's what made the experience mostly pleasant for
you. Is is just.
Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.
We just. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I assume Fred the same one for you and and your experience

(01:21:19):
would say happy days that it seems like that writers room was
was a very collaborative and funone, correct?
Yes, just so so it's you know, it sounds corny, but it's like,
God, we're getting paid for this.
It was just, it's true, so much,so much fun.
And just, and then that was, youknow, so lucky to start on

(01:21:39):
Lauren and Scheer, then a show on a show for seven years and
then on Family Matters for just so just incredibly lucky.
I mean. The thing is that I was thinking
about the other day, Fred, and this is an interesting thing is
that there literally are only you can count in the thousands
on this planet that can do this work.
That's a really amazing thing. You're going.

(01:21:59):
There's there's only thousands of people that can write TV
shows or movies. Most people can't do it.
And it's like, it's kind of likeit's, it's a little.
I mean, when you think I'll comeback in those days, we were
like, we were part of maybe 1000writers.
Yeah, maybe 2000 that did this work.

(01:22:19):
You know, that's like being in Congress statistically like
going it's like, what are you saying?
You look back and go, well, if Iknew that would have done this.
Right. Oh, so my sounds like I have to
part of the 00000 point 1% or something, Yeah.
And also what was interesting when Steve and I were working,

(01:22:41):
you know, sometimes we'd be on on panel writing panels and you
know, there'd be people that wanted to be in the business.
And there was that kind of dichotomy where you you'd want
to be very truthful and you'd want it.
You wouldn't want to hurt people's dreams, you know.
So you would, you know, you would say, you know, it is very
tough. You know, it can happen.

(01:23:02):
Look at me, you know, I got but it was it was interesting.
And, you know, we would say, what what do you say to people
that want to get in the business?
And you want to be very positives?
You know, you point out that, you know, the tough part, but
you know, it happened to me. It can happen to, you know,
people. But you know, so many people
come to Hollywood. You know, there are stars in
their high school and stuff. And then, you know, it's such a

(01:23:22):
huge talent pool. And also when when we were
casting, it was always interesting when people would
come in, they'd leave the room and sometimes someone right away
would look at the resume and they'd say, oh, well, they
haven't done anything. And I would say what others
would say, well, well, if they have no experience, you have to

(01:23:44):
give them, you know, give them achance.
Give. Them something, they have to
start somewhere. Yeah, if they flub the line, you
know, you redo it. It's interesting process.
And also it was tough for actorsis, you know, if there's a part,
you know, Steve might recommend someone, I might recommend
someone. And maybe the other producers
and then the cast director, he or she has people they work

(01:24:05):
with. So, you know, I would say and
others to say, OK, you know, bring in, you know, some
requests and some people, but let's see, bring in some, you
know, some new people. Let's try to give people a
chance and sometimes really pay it off.
You know, we also had, we also had times, we had a, we had
casting. And Dave says we don't have the
person. A couple times was like, you're
going. He said, I did.

(01:24:26):
And it's like, I'm like casting director, you know, she's she's
kind of in a nervous situation because she's picked these
people and hoping that they're going to nail it and her job is
done. But when she doesn't nail it,
it's like she's like a wreck. I'm like, Oh my God.
Yeah. And.
A family matter can you can you think of a family matters
episode where that occurred where you thought you got the

(01:24:46):
person and then it just didn't come through and then you're.
No, no, was the case that they don't.
They never got that far. They come into the casting in
the back of the lot and you'd see 6 people and none of them
could do it. And it's very, very infrequent
this happened. But Dave would just say, Nope,
go back to the go back to the beginning.
You don't have it. None of that I haven't seen.
I don't see the person there. Very rare.

(01:25:08):
Right, a lot of times I'd I'd bereading it, casting other parts,
which was was fun and interesting.
Sometimes you're on. You're on the show 1 time,
weren't you? Oh yeah, it was Jim.
We did the Aunt Una or Donna Summer guest star.
I remember it was the karaoke contest, karaoke thing, you
know, Jonas Summer played Jalil's aunt, who, you know, no

(01:25:29):
confidence whatsoever. But when she sang So I was a
contestant in the karaoke contest.
That was when I sang. Remember that there's a.
Japanese song, the Japanese songright there.
Yaki or sukiyaki? And there's a song from the 60s,
right? Right.
So I sang that and then afterwards an Asian gentleman

(01:25:50):
was wearing a Cowboys and sang Home on the Range and then Jim,
Jim Gagan was the MC, right, remember?
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
That's right. Yeah.
Oh my God, that's. Great.
And Donna was Donna was that wassomething else that was quite.
Yeah, she was like that was, youknow, hearing someone sing next
to you like who could you could really sing?

(01:26:11):
Yeah. It is a amazing experience.
Like I was at this. I had went to a little a
memorial and my wife's friend isin theater, Broadway, whatnot.
So he had some singers at this memorial and the woman that
wrote the Rose, that song came out and belted the song on

(01:26:32):
better better than Bette Midler.It was like, but it was like, my
God, he's here. And then I found I didn't know
this, but the Rose, the song theRose was written for a Janis
Joplin biopic. They didn't make Wow I.
Had no idea. I had no idea that was
apparently the family didn't want to do it finally, and so it

(01:26:52):
ended up morphing into the Rose.But but yeah, it's like it's,
it's those these experiences you're going, yeah, that you've
experienced so many things. And I have one friend, Alan
Stevens, who worked on Roseanne.This man can never repeat a
story. He's lived 2020 lives.
I mean, just crazy, you know, because I remember like he'll

(01:27:13):
say to me, did I tell you the time I I was chatting with John
Lennon, I'm like, Alan, I've known you like 15 years.
Why don't you start there? But that's, but that's The thing
is that we were you're in this thing in the middle of it.
You're meeting all kinds of people.
Write a question for you actually because I had noticed
in a number of season 2 episodesSteve, Rachel's Place, torn

(01:27:36):
between 2 lovers, Marriage, One O 1, Flash Pants, the Crash
Course, Custom Urkel, Dog Day, Halloween, etcetera.
You were listed as a story editor.
What does a story editor do? Well, I'm just the second to
lowest writer on the show at that.
I'm, I am basically, I'm in the I'm in the room for the story

(01:27:59):
conferences, I'm pitching, I'm, you know, pitching stories,
writing scripts. I'm not in editing.
I'm not doing editing, I'm not doing casting.
So it's sort of like, and oh boythat I tell you the I kept
getting jobs as a staff writer level below on the 1st 123

(01:28:20):
shows. I did finally in my got a deal
destroyed in the last episode ofone seat of the Grabber Guillen
show. So that was a big deal.
Because what it is is that when you here's a difference, when
you're a story editor, you writea script, you get paid for the
script. If you're staff writer, you get
a salary. The salary is against the
script. That's the big difference.

(01:28:41):
But you're still a junior writerpretty much, and you're just
doing whatever they tell you to do.
That's pretty much that's that'sthat's basically it.
But we didn't have any producingresponsibilities.
I see. I see.
We were, we were obviously therefor the the table reads and the
run throughs and the filming, but we didn't have, as you know,

(01:29:01):
much responsibility at a certainpoint.
So at a certain point we became Vita Sarah became producers.
There was this issue about the costumes department was not
working with the art department.So costumes would come in with
stuff that would clash or blend in to the set.
So every Wednesday, Beta Sarah and I had to go down the stage

(01:29:24):
and approve, approve all the costumes, right, Because they
literally would not work together.
Yeah, it was just like, you know, it was some fiefdoms or
whatever. But that's.
So we just came and we did just said no, we can't use that.
You gotta use this. Still a lot of the costumes too
I think. But I remember, I remember one
time I were coming in for costume check, may have been the

(01:29:46):
fifth season or something, I think.
And Julia comes running in and he falls like on me, like
panting. So what's what's wrong?
He said, oh, man, oh, man. It goes, what?
I was just at a Clippers game. I said, yeah, so I'm at the
Clippers game. And I heard the announcer say,
and now for your entertainment rerun from what's happening Now.

(01:30:08):
Wow. He's out doing the popping and
locking thing. Don't let that happen to me.
Don't. Don't let that be my fate.
Yeah, let your fate. He was terrified.
He was terrified. He saw.
He was like, Oh my God. Yeah, you know, bouncing off the
costuming, because that was a big thing that we had comments
about in our Season 1 and 2 recaps, was like the very loud,

(01:30:33):
interesting costume choices. I mean, whether it be Laura is
wearing like this cow color themed outfit or Eddie is
wearing like a very flower filled Jean jacket.
So, you know, bouncing off of that, Like, any specific
examples where you could think of where like maybe Eddie or
Laura or Steve wore something that clashed against the set and

(01:30:56):
you had to change it? Well, they never, never
apparently it did happen becausethe network complained that was
the one they never did say. And I said you're you got some
in a brown suit and you got a brown, a brown set.
You know, that was actually thatcame from the network that he
was like did not like that. So that's why we were down
there. But.
Are there rules are? Is there like a set of rules for

(01:31:17):
like OK, you can't have a a clothing color match the the set
color? Is that like sort of a list that
you have to go by or is it? Just it was not a list, but we
knew the cask was he just like you looked at the outfit, you
knew what does that look like and you knew whether it's going
to work or not. It would clash.

(01:31:37):
It was like we going it would just be.
But it was just a thing where, you know, I don't know both the
people that were responsible arenow gone, have passed away, but
I don't know what what it was. Again, we whatever fights went
on, whatever arguments, we wouldnever know.
David and Gary would know. David and Gary would know, but

(01:31:59):
we would never know. Like we heard a story from one
of the actors just recently. I'm not going to repeat it, but
it's something. Wow, that was big.
We never knew that. That's we think Fred and I
realized we didn't. They kept everything from us.
We didn't know anything. I see.
So we, there was no, the the gossip didn't get back to us.
And frankly, when we did set, wedid the costume check.

(01:32:22):
The actors never said anything to us like that they were
complaining to us or anything. You know, we used to like just a
bit annoyed that our department and costuming wouldn't work
together. But you know, that was the deal
that Dave said, go ahead and check the check the costumes.
And we did. And sometimes, yeah, there was
stuff that you know, no, you can't use this.
The set is a set. The set's built.
The costumes can change, not thesets.

(01:32:44):
Right. John.
John, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
No, go ahead. John, I heard your podcast on
Dog Day Halloween and Dave Duke Klein and I wrote, but I thought
it was your your comments and then Andrew Sue, you know, very
interesting. I thought that was because I've
never heard podcast, you know, talk about costumes, but.

(01:33:06):
What? What did you find interesting
about the About the recap? Both your you know, your takes
and, you know, certain what you know the characters are wearing.
You know, you know, very, very interesting because I, I had
never heard anyone comment on and I, yeah, I thought it was,
you know, some you love and you said call Fred.
Why do they do that? No, I'm just, that was very

(01:33:29):
interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I think our favorite part of the episode was the running joke
of I I think maybe maybe it was the robber that kept confusing
which iconic like black female singer Laura was like calling
her Chaka Khan, Paula Abdul, like whatever hot black female
singer at the time it was. I want to ask you Fred, a couple

(01:33:50):
of episodes you had written in season 2.
Fast Eddie Winslow and busted both revolved around Eddie owing
money to somebody and trying to pay it off with both gambling
and also taking advantage of Stevens intelligence during said
gambling. Like that kind of like
reoccurring story device. Is that something that you you
love to come back to because that hits you personally?

(01:34:13):
Is that just something that you find is a strength with Darius
and his character like, oh, you know, teenagers, you know, love
to get into gambling trouble. Like what what's, what's the
idea behind, you know, crafting episodes?
Next question. And again, it's interesting
because you know, Steve could come up with the story, I could
come up with the story and someone else, you know, writes
it's. But firstly, I'm a poker player

(01:34:34):
and stuff and so it was fun. A very good poker player, by the
way. Well, thank you, Okay.
Fred and I would set the table together.
Fred and I would set the table together for the readings every
Monday. You'd sit down and tell me how
much you want. And I was like I said, they
went, Oh my God, he's a very good poker player.

(01:34:55):
Well, thank you, but I sound like a jerk, I'm sorry to say
about. No, no, no.
They were trying quietly. And then, you know, we thought,
you know, when we decided we'd not just me or we all decided to
do that story, We thought it was, you know, would be a good,
you know, a good vehicle to showsome, of, you know, they're

(01:35:17):
either they're acting in it or, you know, their points of view.
And, you know, Carl obviously wasn't thrilled that Eddie was.
You know, then we did another episode where, you know, Eddie.
Yeah, maybe it was that word, lost some money.
And then Carl went back to play.And then we did in another
episode we did where Steve endedup Lieutenant Jenner was playing

(01:35:39):
in a poker game. And then Steve played and
Harriet played. Yeah.
We just. Yeah.
Because Steve is so smart, that became almost a starting point
for a lot of different stories. It allowed us to do a lot of
things, allowed us to do Stefan.It allowed us to do, you know,
just any number of things so that his brilliant, his

(01:36:00):
brilliance allowed us to he's a great story generator because I
bet and the and that gambling one, someone probably said, Oh
God, Steve could count cards or whatever.
He gets his, he could we and he could figure out I could use his
intellect to make money. It's like that's, you know,

(01:36:20):
again, that's really the it's right there.
It's right there. It's you go like it's, I mean,
basically what sort of sort of like Julio kind of gives you a
bunch of the writers a bunch of equations to work with and you
keep kind of doing different equations.
And when, Oh, if I do this with this, him with her, you know,
oh, was this funny if he did this?
So it was like he just, he just made the show much easier to

(01:36:41):
write. True also be I think in the pool
when he'd realized in what angles we were you know to make
the shots and yeah, but he just.Was it like?
Intellectual. Yeah, was a big driver in a lot
of stories. Wow, Fred with the Finding the
Words episode that you wrote where Harriet and Rachel meets
their long lost father, Jimmy, of course, played by the iconic

(01:37:03):
Paul Winfield. Given the huge impact that it
had on them in that episode. We my Co host and I and a bunch
of fans on say Reddit, we're wondering like, huh, why did
Jimmy never come back? Was there ever any discussion?
Because I, I would think that like these ladies met their

(01:37:23):
father for the first time in many years.
Maybe he might come back in other guest starring forms.
Was there any consideration on on having Jimmy come back given
the impact that he had on that episode?
You know it's Steve. I I don't think so.
There wasn't. No, there wasn't.
I don't. Think so.
And I think, yeah, I I don't think there was.
It was just sort of like it was.That's the kind of one of those

(01:37:45):
things where you're going, you write the character and you go,
can we get Paul Winfield and youget him.
You just like to get him again. You just go, you're just done.
Did you got him? And he's there on the set, and
you're going. But, you know, that's a very
good question. I think sometimes, you know, you
know, we're so, you know, busy, you know, we're working on that
week's trip and next week that, you know, just constantly, you

(01:38:09):
know, turn out episodes. Sometimes one forgets either,
you know, think back and and also when you when you do a
story like that, because that was one of the, you know, quote
UN quote serious ones. And when we do shows like that,
I think, you know, it's important.
It's a nice a nice variation, but I think it would have been

(01:38:32):
for just for example, on Happy Days, I wrote an episode called
The Mechanic where Font Fontsi hires a mechanic over the phone
and the guy shows up in a wheelchair.
And because we wanted, we didn'twant to be didacted, but we
wanted to kind of introduce maybe young kids that haven't
dealt with the quote UN quote disabled.

(01:38:52):
I was very interested. There's a big article in The
Times when you do a show like that, you don't want to enhance
any, you know, falsehoods. It's kind of like taking a
chance. And I remember I was on a board
of directors of a company calledPath Performing Arts, City of

(01:39:13):
the Handicapped. And it's, you know, difficult
enough for an actor to get a role, you know, let alone a
disabled person. So when we did that episode,
it's, it's always tough because you're not going to make
everybody happy. So we had, I remember we had a
Christmas party and some of the actors, disabled actors we

(01:39:34):
worked with, you know, some, youknow, some love the episode.
Some said, OK, why did you make the Gentleman in the Wheelchair
so, so bitter? So, you know, any time you do
kind of a serious episode, do you want to, you know, we got a
lot of letters from organizations that were, you
know, very happy we did it. So back to the finding the words
episode. You know, why?

(01:39:56):
Why didn't we see, you know, that again and, you know, would
the would Harriet and Rachel, you know, forgive them?
So yeah, it's it's and again, you know, that was I didn't come
up with the idea, you know, I forgot who did.
But we all, you know, all discussed.
Yeah, it's sometimes it's hard to remember where the idea
started because so many times itcan be in the room or if someone

(01:40:18):
says one sentence, it sets off another writer to say another
sentence and then you go, oh, wait a minute, you do this and
that. So at all.
Sometimes it's just the eight ofus or whatever, you know.
Well, I just, I just did remember a strange anecdote back
in Family Matters. I was at the bungalow.
I was standing on the steps of the bungalow.
And this is right. It's a bungalow right by the

(01:40:38):
main administration building. And there's some editing suites
across from me. So I was standing there and one
of the younger female writers comes running up to me and kind
of hugs me. And I'm like, what is going on
here? That was me.
No, I was like going, what is going on here?

(01:40:59):
She's like acting like I'm her boyfriend or something.
I'm like going, well, what's going on?
Beep, beep, beep. Steven Seagal walks around the
corner. He looks at me, looks at her and
does that little praying thing he does and goes to the editing
room and I'm like, she was running away from Steven Seagal.
No, no. He was, he was hitting on her
and I was like, and I was the protection.

(01:41:20):
Oh God. You know the story I told you
about the actor. I mean, we picked up on the golf
course. He was coming to see Mr. Segal.
That's right. That's right.
Wow. Yeah.
Interesting he was. The story goes, even though
Warner Brothers, his Warner Brothers films, made a ton of
money for them, they didn't wanthim around.

(01:41:41):
They they were like, done. Yeah.
They were down there like that. I I this is just.
I've heard he. I've heard he.
Wasn't like, yeah, I mean, it was just, but that was my Steven
Seagal. And Connor was like going this
is so weird. Wow.
She ran up and hugged you. Wow.
He did. He ran up to try to make sure it
that he knew that is that I was the big black boyfriend and I

(01:42:01):
like going. I was like, this is the I was I
was the safety net because it was like whatever happened, She
was like, oh shit, I was I was Iwas opponent protector and was
like, all I do is I just let I just looked at him and I'm like
going, I was totally confused. But I'm like going, what is
this? And I remember, oh, OK, I get
it. Yeah, it all makes sense now.

(01:42:22):
But he disappeared in the editing suite and that was it.
But it was like, it was just like, Oh my God.
See, that's The thing is like the strange part of Hollywood.
I usually don't. I see.
In fact, I'm so straight I've probably only seen cocaine once
in my life. OK, one time.
That was it. Well, I never drank.

(01:42:43):
I never did. I look like maybe I did drive
but I didn't. No, it's not.
It's just like you go. It's it's, it's the kind of
thing you're going. I guess it's going.
You should feel so fortunate. Why would you?
Right. Speaking of which, Steve, I
believe you wrote an episode of Webster where Webster and Nikki

(01:43:05):
like they'd have something with a basketball star who is like
using cocaine. Is that come?
Does that come from your only experience of seeing?
Cocaine. No.
OK, guys. I'll, I'll tell you what, I had
this after I quit Sony, when Norman Layers sold the company

(01:43:27):
and I got a check for 5000 bucks.
I said, I'm going to be a writer.
So I went off that summer. I was, I'm my, my agent got me
in the pitch and all these different shows and I'd sell
every single time. And I was like, when I mean, it
was like, I guess this is what the freelancing career in the
60s must have been like for writers Doesn't really exist

(01:43:50):
that much anymore. But it was fun.
It was actually a lot of fun because I was, I would come up
with these ideas, I'd sell, I'd sell every single time, but I
would tell people I was selling and other friends.
And finally the guys that got me, the guy that got me the job
on Silver Spoon got me an assignment on Webster.

(01:44:13):
And that was sort of like. Yeah, because by that it was not
even on network anymore. It was also.
Syndicated and it wasn't a good story.
It was just like, you know, I'm like pay was good.
Was like, this is not really great.
And they rewrote it a lot, and Ididn't blame them.
What what? What was it like originally and

(01:44:34):
what did it end up being? Same thing, but it's just sort
of bland. I'm like, I just felt sort of
bland. And I wrote a Small wonder and I
remember when the taping thinking, Oh my God, my name's
on this. Oh man.
Because I said I told these guys, these friends, listen, I
sold. I sold a story to Howard.

(01:44:55):
I said, oh, congratulations, butnow you got to work with Howard.
So. It's like, so it was sort of
like, but it was this great summer of just like being, you
know, this, you know, I didn't have to be anywhere.
I just at home. I could write.
They pay me and then I got the job on silver spoons.
So but what I was doing was I kept selling.

(01:45:18):
I kept my mentor came in the business first as a comedian,
but selling scripts, not be on staff.
So when he saw me leave the showto be a writer, that impressed
him and I didn't know I was selling myself every I called
Jim and say I sold him the script.
I sold him the script. You know, I was like going, I
think I sold two what's happenings and Small wonder

(01:45:40):
crazy Webster was like, I mean, it was great.
It was a great feeling and but because but so when the opening
came up the silver spoons I was the top of the list.
Yeah, actually I didn't. Realize I was selling myself.
I didn't realize it that all those sales was like, oh, OK,
I'm in the game now. Right, so Fred, I think you also
had an experience. I think you wrote they didn't

(01:46:01):
you write a season one episode of Webster.
I think I had that in my. No, it was might have been
Season 2 because when Happy Daysended, John Barbara, who was a
executive of Paramount, asked ifI would go to go to Webster.
God, now I'm completely blankingand.

(01:46:22):
No, it's OK you. Know what, you know why I had, I
had an interview about silver spoons.
And then maybe the same thing ishappening here is that you find
that you they're asking about silver spoons when I find I
blocked a lot of it on my on my memory.
And you had. I mean, I know who you were
working with. And but human mind does that if

(01:46:43):
something's sort of traumatic and working with somebody who's
really, really a jerk, terrible person.
Yeah. I, I was realizing it was like
it was very strange to find it because it was a, a live
broadcast. It was like stumbling and
fumbling, going, Oh my God, I don't remember.

(01:47:03):
I blocked. It out.
That's so. I remember almost every episode
we remembered jokes, but yeah, Ijust can't remember.
Yeah, yeah, it was traumatic. You you don't want to remember
it. Yeah, because IMDb, Fred, IMDb
had you like writing a like it was a 1984 season 1 episode.
I, I forgot what it was about, but I just want to get your

(01:47:24):
thoughts on working because I, Ibelieve it was season 1 where
the parents, the actors who played the parents, they weren't
liking the new direction the show was taking where Emmanuel
Lewis was going to become the star.
And I was wondering if that played a role in your writing.
But you're, you're kind of saying maybe season 1 or season
2 is, is what you wrote Because I, I believe season 2 is where

(01:47:46):
kind of of like everybody was onequal footing on what the
identity of Webster was going. To be it was, yeah, I was there
exactly. Some writers on the show, when
they heard I was offered to be on the show, said Fred.
Basically, you know, run away. Just don't.
Don't do it. John Barber asked me to and John

(01:48:09):
said no, Fred, you're a showrunner on Happy Days with
Brian Ovett the last two years. You know, I can't promise you a
producer, correct. Whatever I said.
Well, it's fine. You know, I'd like to help.
But yeah, it was very tough between the showrunners and
then, you know, Susan and Alex, a lot of the.

(01:48:30):
Actors who play the parents, yeah.
You know, a lot of lot of battles, which is too bad.
One reason I don't want and I probably shouldn't tell the
story. But Manuel was, you know, such,
you know, great, great kid. And one time we're walking to
rehearsal and Manuel's and in front of the stage, two of his

(01:48:52):
friends are there, you know, visiting and we're walking.
And one of the little kids, man,whose friend asked one of the
showrunners what they did on theshow.
And the person screams and goes,what do I do on the show?
I'm the executive producer. To this little kid, it was just,

(01:49:14):
it was very sad. Yeah, that was.
Yeah. It's like, it is.
It's like though we what? Fortunately, fortunately, Fred
and I have had, you know, with mostly good people.
Just 99. Percent boy, yeah, I like clean.
I mean, I can't imagine people would have to be in a job with a

(01:49:35):
person like that for a long period of time.
Yeah, tough. Yeah, Steve did it.
What was it, 2 years Steve with your first?
Yeah, I did it for about two years.
Yeah. And it was just.
Silver spoons or Webster, I'm sorry.
Silver spoons. OK, Yeah, I did.
I did. I'm an assistant for two years

(01:49:55):
with this guy. It was just, yeah, yeah.
It's like he was, he was, he wasnotorious.
Was like he got The showrunners fired on Silver Spoons to get
the job. Wow.
And then when he got fired from the probably Harper thing, then

(01:50:19):
the next job he had was under the guise he got fired.
So they how did they react to that?
Did they do a revenge tactic or?I, I think the, I think the
revenge was just there. You know, it's like it's just
this, you're working for me again.
And it's like it was just there.I think I think Cindy Williams
was on that show, too. Interesting.

(01:50:39):
Yeah, but yeah, that the but butyeah, it's like we've mostly
have avoided, you know, bad situations and there are toxic,
there are toxic writers rooms. I've never seen them.
But you know, it's like it's, you know, the thing, the thing
about the writing staff on Family Matters is we really

(01:51:01):
didn't come in with an agenda. Billy said here, the characters,
how do they, how do we make these people laugh?
We had no idea in the world thatthis thing would still be be
talked about today. And there's a certain point
where I was going. Peels and Keys are doing a
Family Matters sketch. Yeah.
I'm like, wait, wait a minute, That was 20 years ago.

(01:51:22):
Whenever they just like that doesn't happen.
Yeah, it happens. Maybe to, to, to to Lucy.
Yeah, not to us. Yeah.
And then they have these like dark Days of comedy sort of
documentary specials where you talk about the behind the scenes
stuff and actually which which brings me to this question.
So, and I think Jaleel had addressed this in one of those

(01:51:43):
dark days of comedy series. And Season 2, we get the debut
of Myrtle Urkel and cousin Urkel.
And I think Steve, you had a story editor credit on that
episode and me and my Co hosts were just kind of baffled by
like, oh, hey, this is like the last time we see Myrtle until
like season 7. And I wonder if it's related to

(01:52:05):
the often said backstage story about, I think it was something
in the matter of, like, Reggie and Joe Marie weren't papi with
Myrtle because they kind of like, put out this stereotype
of, you know, black men or blackboys playing girls for comedy.
And Julio was crying in his dressing room afterwards and his
dad had to comfort him. So I don't know if that had

(01:52:26):
anything to do with the fact that we didn't see Myrtle for a
long time. Or was it just, oh, there wasn't
anything, you know, doable, right for Myrtle until season?
As he said before, John, it's like we've realized a lot was
kept from. Us so this this was one of
those. Things we would we would not be
necessarily pretty to that. Is that a possibility that could

(01:52:48):
I I? It sounds like it could it could
be a possible. I I had I had heard that was
that in Jaleel's book John. Jaleel did not specifically
write that in his book, but he'stalked about it and in in a docu
series called Dark Side of Comedy I.
Believe I I had heard that and I'm not sure where, but that,
yeah, that could have been it. Could have been so I mean I I

(01:53:13):
assume by the seat by the time he does Myrtle at that point I
probably has a lot more power atthat point.
So if I do whatever he wanted, I.
Would it was it was a fun car, Iwrote dumbbell of the blonde of
the ball. But it was a fun but he did a
great job. He really did.
He the thing was, is what Julio was, he was like Peter Sellers

(01:53:33):
in a way. He threw anything at him.
Anything he'll he'll do it and go 100%.
Yeah. So you could do all different
kinds of characters also. Just just, there was nothing
that he couldn't do. So what was that conversation
like? You know, Fast forward to season
7 where it's like, oh, hey, remember that character Julio
did way back in season 2? Let's do that.
Like how how did that suddenly spring about?

(01:53:55):
Was it just kind of like you guys were looking for ideas and
that came about or was there some?
It just became part of the mix of what we were doing.
Yeah, I just finding finding stories.
And we thought, hey, let's, let's bring back Myrtle.
It wasn't. Yeah, there's never, never were
things of like, oh, we don't want to do this because.

(01:54:15):
Right, right. That was never the thought
process. The thought process was purely
how do we make these people laugh?
Right, Right. I mean, we had, I remember one
time, well, we did the Stevo. We did Stevo the the Halloween
episode. Yeah.
And the best fun about that was.Gives me nightmares by the way,
to Stebel. I'm sorry, we're.

(01:54:37):
Sorry, I'm going there, I'm going there so.
Appropriately enough. So I said, so we started to do
Stebel too, right? We knew, oh, the audience may
not have seen Stebel 1. So we're going to play Stebel
Stebel 1 before the show begins filming.
And we're on the floor, 250 people in the in the stage.
Do you win? People are shrieking, they're

(01:55:00):
freaking out. It's like it's it's a horror
movie. And it's like we're like going,
we hear laughter coming from that stage.
We were terror coming to the stage.
And I'm like going, oh, I kind of get what the horror thing is
about now. It's like, yeah, that's kind of
fun to be able to. That's what I kind of do now.
But but it was such a great experience of like, watching

(01:55:22):
them them, like jumping in theirchairs and shaking, like, yeah,
we made a scary show. We really made a scary show that
scares people. Yeah.
And Halloween episode, yeah cuz.It's like we were like, yeah, I
was like, I'm going, yeah. We, we really rocked it on that
one. That was great.
Oh my God. And you know what?
And what I love, and this is part of the Family Matters

(01:55:43):
conversation that people continue to have today, is, you
know, ranking, you know, all these episodes in terms of
quality. Like, oh, is there a time where,
you know, Family Matters was at its creative peak?
And maybe is there a time where they weren't so much?
You'll jump the shark. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's where and that and that'swhere I was going to go.
Fred, you're probably tired of talking about this, but not.

(01:56:06):
At all. OK, so of course, you wrote the
the infamous Happy Days episode where Fonsi literally jumps over
a shark to like answer to a challenge.
And that created the term that we know today as jumping the
shark, which is where a show hasreached its creative peak and
just kind of declines from there.
Two questions for you. One, how do you that has your

(01:56:27):
feeling about that legacy changed?
Maybe you kind of enjoy or find funny the sort of infamy that
the episode has gotten, or maybeit's more so you're you're kind
of still defensive about the episode.
That's one question. And two, for both of you guys,
do you think that Family Mattersever jumped the shark?

(01:56:48):
Well, well, answer the first part.
Yeah, we did an episode where talent agent's car breaks down,
goes into Arnold, sees Fonzie's magic with the ladies, said Oh
my goodness, you can be the nextJames Dean.
And of course the whole people come out.
So the bee story finds it on thebeach and there's this cocky

(01:57:13):
California kid type guy. They have a water skiing race
that's a tie. So we have to come up with a
tiebreaker. Well, part of it is Henry
Winkler's father always said to Henry, OK, telling me water ski,
tell me water ski. So he finally did.
But that that wasn't why we did this.
But what's interesting, Lee Margulies, who worked at the LA

(01:57:35):
Times for years in the calendar section 2000, gosh, maybe 10
years ago, asked me if I wanted to write an article on Jump the
Shark. So I did.
And it's kind of called In Defense.
And Jumping the Shark is when itfirst came out.
I thought, Oh my God, I should wear a scarlet F on my chest.
I'm doomed. Yeah.

(01:57:55):
So I felt like, oh, my God, I'm I'm embarrassed.
And then after family matters, Iwent after Happy Days and all
the stuff I went to pitch something at at Disney.
I'm sorry that I'll get to the answer, but the the executive
was looking at my resume and said, oh, you worked on happy

(01:58:16):
days that God, do you have any idea who wrote the Jump the
Shark episode? And I said I I never got to
pitch the story because she was so excited anyway.
So yeah, I finally got to the point where it I'm, you know,
I'm fine with it. Your Jeopardy question now?
Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, like, it
makes more people want to check out the episode and maybe they

(01:58:37):
enjoy it even more because this is just, I don't know, it's just
just something that's just etched in pop culture.
A. Friend of mine thought it was
Jump the shark man. Well, it's a really good thing.
You see, he loves that episode. I seems adventurous, yeah.
Right. Funny with family matters.
Theoretically, you could say we jumped the shark a number of
times. But there was a strange compact

(01:59:00):
between the audience and Jaleel.They trusted his character so
much that if he said we we tournament to Steph, Stefan, the
ratings went up. Ratings like the ratings go up,
you know, like, so we do anothercharacter, like do Elvis like
going yeah, they just accept this.
They just accept this. And it was just like, that was a
strange, you know, and that was like Dave felt it out.

(01:59:22):
He pushed it in real life. Oh, I can keep going further.
They can keep going further because they're they this is
they're cool with this. So you go, yeah, you could
theoretically say jump the shark, but it was, I mean,
certain episodes. But there was such a trust
between the audience and the character they wanted us to do.

(01:59:42):
They want us to go there. They want us to go there.
I'll tell you a story. I was teaching at a New York
film Academy and I had a studentwith me.
I was consulting with a student.The student asked me.
He says, what shows did you do? And I said I did.
Family matters. His guys get really wide and
goes, my God, your show. Tell me, Tell me that I could be

(02:00:02):
cool. Be.
Yeah, from being a nerd to beingcool.
And I was like, and I got to saymy point of view about why did
writing changed after Family matters?
Because of all the people that say, oh, that was family night
for us. This was the only time we were
together. Things like this.
Wick has heard it. Jim Gagan has heard it.

(02:00:23):
And I was even listening to a little old interview with
Gregory, Gregory Peck talking same thing.
And then you go, I I'll go, oh, this isn't about me at all.
These are about strangers. I'm writing for strangers.
I might start a marriage somehow.
I don't know. I might end a marriage somehow.
I wrote, I don't know. I'll probably never know.
But these shows, are they affecting people's lives?

(02:00:50):
And it's like it's, it's literally not.
I mean, literally, I think our Fred and I was thinking is what
do we have to write to get audience here and make them
laugh their asses off? Yeah, You know, that's just like
the principal who want to. It's like going because believe
me, I've been in tapings where nobody laughed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like that is like Fred

(02:01:11):
Grimace is like that is the scariest thing.
Scary idea for comedy writers toput us and nobody laughs because
I'm so bad going. So that's where our heads are
at. But it's like, you realize as
you get older, you go, oh, I'm this is pretty heady stuff here.

(02:01:32):
And even though it was made, youknow, however many years ago,
it's still affecting people. It's still affecting people
lives because more and more are seeing it.
You're going. Oh, OK, nine on one on this
earth. Go like, Oh yeah.
Which for them, OK, fair enough.Yeah.
You've given up. You've given a lot of
millennials like myself joy, so we appreciate you for that.
You know what? You know what?
And that's, that's, that's, you know, the, the, that's the whole

(02:01:56):
point of it, right? That's the whole point of it.
The whole point of it is, you know, it's like, yeah, this
thing is we did it right. It brings joy.
Maybe insight. We did try to do insight, I
mean, in terms of the relationships and whatnot.
But yeah, you know, you, you don't realize when you're doing
it what the bigger result is even bigger than for the

(02:02:20):
financial result. It's like they're Oh yeah, It's
like I don't think anybody ever came up, came to my father and
said, oh, you that thing you didAG changed my life.
That didn't happen, but it's happened to.
US. Numerous times when the show was
mentioned and it's like, yeah, thank God, that's great.

(02:02:41):
But it has has affected my writing today.
I really make sure that there's something human in the stories,
something that of value that some, some might, someone might
get something out of. Yeah.
That's. Awesome.
But also, there are things I'm going.
It's like, I heard this story. It was Marlon Brando was so
brilliant. He mastered movie acting in his

(02:03:03):
probably his 20s and was quite bored with it when he was doing
it because he was just so good at it.
Wasn't until the horrible stuff that happened to his kids.
Yeah, he went to a movie just toget away.
And then he understood what movies were about.
That's what he understood what he did for a living, but what
the meaning of it was. He goes on the other end of it

(02:03:25):
and yeah, it's, it's potent stuff.
You know, it's like it's you, you.
That's why, you know, it's funny.
Someone said recently it's some awards thing and he said a
writer said maybe we should not be putting villains on a

(02:03:48):
pedestal, letting the villain bea protagonist.
It sends a bad message that thatcould have affected us today.
And I think that's what they're thinking was like going, you
know, you know, this is this is dangerous stuff.
You're you're, you're, you're playing with in a bomb movie,
The villain is the villain, the villain dies.

(02:04:10):
That's it. There's no, no qualifiers.
And there's like the villain, the villain just goes and and I
do, I do. I think that maybe that's this
writers got some point to make you going out, you know,
villains should be just that, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. Sorry to interrupt, Fred.
Did, did did you think that Family Matters jumped the shark?

(02:04:32):
I don't know if we ever got to your part of the question.
No, no, I don't think it. I don't.
Think it it's, it's yeah. Everything we, we didn't have to
like grab for something odd thatwe thought could bring ratings
in or something. But it's like you just they were
like Carl and Steve are great story generators, you know, just

(02:04:53):
like you always could find a story for the two of them.
Yeah. And always would be.
Fun did it. I don't I don't think I ever
jumped the show. There were times where as as
Chillo got older, you know, theymight have thought, you know, a
little strange, but that was theonly ever.
Yeah, that was the only thing ashe got older and, you know, it's
like it's growing. So it's just like, but but it's.

(02:05:14):
Yeah, it's. But it didn't.
Yeah, it didn't. But there was, but there was
just there was this, there was arelationship with the audience.
You know, I saw a show, the show, the show cop show called
The Rookie. That's done now.
And we liked it because it's a very, very realistic police

(02:05:35):
show. Then the showrunner left and
they were jumping the shark all over the place.
I'm going and my wife's going. I can't take this anymore.
Yeah, it's too much. Too much, Too much.
Too much, too much. Oh yeah.
Yeah. Can you both can you both talk
about your relationship with Bill Beckley and Mike Warren,

(02:05:56):
who of course created Family Matters?
I so so Fred, it if I understandcorrectly, you met Bill and Mike
on happy Days and Steve, it looks like you got to know more
through family matters. Something about Bill's
conversation that were like I had with him the other day about
how he might have taken the showversus how Dave Duclaan

(02:06:20):
eventually took the show kind ofstuck with me.
I mean, he did seem to think that sort of the like say that
the sci-fi elements that were happening later on with Urkel
and The Time Machine and Stevo and things like that may have
not been how he would have takenit.
So I don't know if you guys had any relationship, much

(02:06:43):
conversation, much input any anydynamic with Bill and Michael
toward how the direction of the show was going to be.
What what what are your thoughtson that?
Like what was the? Issue with them.
That's an excellent question. As I mentioned it was Happy Days
50th anniversary. Brian Levant and I wrote a book
as I mentioned called 50 years of Happy Days.
We interviewed the whole cast obvious that are with us and I

(02:07:09):
joined Happy Days the four season as did Brian Levant and
Bill, I'm sure. Is it from the conversation you
had with him? Bill was the first producer on
Happy Days and as I'm sure you know, a lot of people think
Happy Days came to be because ofAmerican Graffiti.
Happy Days was shot before. Yeah, Bill said that.
Yeah. You know, turned down and they

(02:07:30):
showed it on Love American Style.
So, so again, you know, Bill wasthe first producer.
We interviewed the whole cast and we sat down with Bill and we
had a event at the Gary MarshallTheatre and we had a panel Bill
Beckley, Logan's and Dave was never involved with.

(02:07:51):
He might have written an episode, but so Bill was the
producer the first two years andthen as Gary thought it would
be, with Jimmy Walker and Dynamite being very popular,
Gary Morrison decided not to do 1 camera anymore and do a three,

(02:08:11):
you know, 3 camera stage. So all of a sudden, you know,
American 3D comes out by either I I forgot who called Gary and
said, Hey, hey, we need a show like, you know, the 50s.
And Gary said we already have one.
So then in addition again and Anson Williams, they thought

(02:08:33):
they were too old. So so when it turned to 3
camera, you know, Bill didn't have experience in that, but
Bill was Bill and Michael were great.
You know, they'd be on happy days, they'd be gone.
And then they were my boss and Iwas their boss.
And there was, you know, then onfamily matters, I was, they're
always my, but just great guys to work with, so.

(02:08:53):
They're great guys and they, they weren't with, they weren't,
weren't with us day-to-day. They were with us day-to-day.
They were there, but they weren't with us day-to-day on
the show. Bill, I got to know better than
Michael as I I mean, I, I was sort of like, it was sort of
funny because sort of like, and honestly, I never actually spoke
to Tom Miller the whole time. Of Miller and Boyett.

(02:09:16):
Yeah, I never. I never, there was never a time
it was like, hi, I'm Steve and like, no, it was like I never, I
never met him. I've seen him at BBC with table
readings, but then, you know, somebody wasn't showing up to
those anymore. But he just so I'd never knew
that. I never really knew the man.
Yeah, back back to when So Bill left after the second saying

(02:09:37):
that Logan's took over and just really the, you know, the energy
was great. The cast is love.
I think they really have fond memories of the, you know, first
two seasons. But what really happened was the
energy shoot in front of an audience.
They just just love, just love that.

(02:09:59):
And everyone had, you know, Marion and Tom, but you know,
Tom Blasey won a Tony Ward for Fiorello, you know, on Broadway,
obviously. But so everyone had to kind of
experience that. Ron Howard.
Never He was. A single camera guy.
Yeah, so, so nervous the first episode.

(02:10:19):
I understand he was just just really, I want to say Fred, but
afraid, you know, he'd he'd blowit or something.
But Jerry Paris and the cast were just so, you know, behind
them. And obviously, as you know, Ron,
Ron just just nailed it at the energy it brought.
And, you know, Jerry was just a great, you know, great director,

(02:10:40):
you know, actor, you know, you know, the show where he played
the neighbor and it was an actorin the wild ones, the naked and
the Dead, where he played both parts, I think.
No, I'm just kidding. So he brought so much energy and
just, the cast just just love Friday nights, just the energy

(02:11:02):
and, and, and Bill and Michael remained, you know, a key part
of it, you know, off and on. So it's just working with them
all these years and it's just just a thrill.
So what what? So what were Bill and Michael's
roles versus like Miller and Boyett's roles Like, because I
know Miller and Boyett, they they come up in the end credits

(02:11:23):
there. Were they just the production
company that funded and distributed the show?
Like what were the differences? Between the two, first is
Miller, Miller Milkis Boyett, then you know, Gary Court, Mary
Marshall and then Eddie left andit was Miller Boyett and his
Steve said we didn't we would see them, you know, they'd be at
readings and stuff, but they they kind of handled, you know,
work with the network stuff, especially after, you know, Gary

(02:11:46):
went off to do movies and stuff.But the day-to-day stuff was,
you know, Michael and Bill get notes from them.
You know, Dave was a showrunner and they they trusted did
explicitly so. Many the idea back in the day
probably is true today too. But do when you create a show,
you don't plan on doing it day-to-day the whole time.

(02:12:08):
You want to do 3, three or four years and then hand it off to
someone else and then basically you're collecting a nice check.
Oh yeah. Try to sell something else.
And Bill and Mike Michael were at that point where they've done
a lot of stuff and they needed someone to run the show and they
want someone to run the show. So they have to worry about the
stuff they they did the heavy lifting, selling the show.

(02:12:30):
They got her on the air. You know, now it's like you're
going, hey, now we don't have to, we don't have to work these
hours. So, but and that's their, that's
their, you know, that's their prerogative.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
And also, I'm sorry, as you know, they Warner Brothers
wanted to bring it back about Ballpark 6 or so months ago.

(02:12:51):
Brother Ben and I had lunch withBill not too long ago and they
said. A Family Matters.
Reboot. A Family Matters.
Reboot. Yeah, yeah, we heard about.
This phone call from Warner Brothers basically saying, hey,
we want your, you know, OK to dothis.
He won't be a part of it. They gave him some money and it
never, it never happened, but they didn't want anyone involved

(02:13:12):
with family matters to do it again.
Is is that why the why I never went anywhere because like more
shut out that were important to the original run?
Yeah, so they just didn't want to do it.
And then there's been articles, I don't know if Shiloh talked
about it, but he he doesn't wantto do it where like he's older
now and has kids who wanted to do.
I think he probably told you a sitcom about really what

(02:13:36):
happened to him, you know? Yeah, Yeah, he wanted to do it.
If you, if you guys ever seen the The Big Bang Theory spin off
Young Sheldon, he kind of wantedto do that like you want to do
like a young Julia White sort oftwist on it.
So I don't know, latest story that I've seen is that Jaleel
says he has a reboot cooking so that the things were kind of all

(02:13:57):
over the place as to whether a reboot is actually happening or
not. You know, here's, here's my
idea. Yeah.
You, you, you write the show as though it's the 10th season and
you do it all in AI. Actors don't have to, Actors
don't have to deal with each other.
They could be in a, you know, a recording booth and record it
and do the whole season. It'll look like, because, you
know, Justine Bateman, who's quite good at this stuff, he

(02:14:18):
said actually the technology exists to do the Ted season of
Family Ties. And now, listen, I was watching
a Rambo 6 trailer with Stallone,and I'm going, wait a minute,
and I go to IMDb. There's no Rambo 6.
There's no plans for Rambo 6. That was an AI version of it was
like, it looked real. Yeah.

(02:14:40):
Speaking of, I have to ask because I think I've been
reading online for God knows howlong.
I think you guys had stayed withFamily Matters through the ends
and there was always discussion about how there was thoughts of
a season 10 where Steve and Laura got married.
Obviously the show got cancelledSeason 9, you know, with the

(02:15:01):
whole CBS block party disaster that happened with Family
Matters and Step by Step. Is any of that true?
What was there a season 10 plan where we were going to see the
marriage or no? I.
Don't. I don't.
No, we were not planning on a season 10.
Here's the what the I guess the here's something's probably true
is that they went to CBS becausethey wanted another season for

(02:15:23):
step by step on, I think some new shows.
Yeah, if they hadn't gone to CBS, there probably would have
been a tenth season, I was told.Really.
Why was it taken off of ABC after the 8th season?
Well, no. Stayed on ABC on the FDA season
because it was a business. Deal.
Well, the last year was CBS. Yeah, it was.

(02:15:43):
It was a business deal. You know, Tom and Bob were
trying to get more episodes out of the other shows and they used
sort of failing matters as the anchor as we're getting at CBS.
But you know, it was a disaster like you said.
But I've heard that ABC would have wanted a 10 season.
Really. Wow.
So again, that they can't go back in time or no, but it was

(02:16:06):
like, but that's what I've that's the scuttlebutt that I
heard because the whole CBS thing, I don't remember.
We found, found out, found out about that.
But it was like minute we were on CBS, it was apparent no one
was talking about season 10 after the first, after the
ratings, no one was talking about it.
What were the ratings specifically?
Because I'm sure that would be great by today's standards.

(02:16:27):
Oh, by today's standards, we'd be on forever.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think we went down to 5 million from 90.
We had. A Yeah, for a network that's
pretty bad at the time. Yeah, yeah, today 5 million is
good, yeah. But back then I could see, yeah,
if you weren't pulling double digits, then yeah, you were in
trouble. But I've noticed that the

(02:16:47):
networks are trying to pull back, bring back every name
actor from the 90s and 2002 two,two shows.
And I'm not surprised or talk ofthe family matters reboot.
I don't know how they would do it, but but because that's
what's going on. They're they're bleeding viewers

(02:17:07):
and they are. In fact, what's really
interesting is you look at you look at shows today on the
networks and they're more culturally diverse than they
were in the 90s. Yeah, and but it's not out of
altruism. It's out of we got to get more
people. We got to get more eyeballs,
right. So you see more black people.

(02:17:28):
So like, you're going, you're seeing a lot of different races
on these shows. You know, you're going, it's
just, that's no mistake. This is like, this is on
purpose. Like you go to the show, Elspeth
the the boss is black, her partner's black.
You know, it's like going, this is not, they're just going.
We got to get, we got to get everybody watching.
We can't be. We can't because when it when it
came to the year 2000, Madison Ave. said, oh, we don't need

(02:17:50):
older viewers and they cancelledMatlock.
They cancelled these shows that were working and now you're
going, you gave away a lot and now they want it back, right?
I think right now the top show is Tracker.
Yeah, yeah. With Justin Hartley.
Yep, Justin. Hartley it's like, yeah, that's
the shows about 18,000,000 viewers, a lot of viewers.
But you know, The thing is, you look at the show, it's like it's

(02:18:12):
cool detector show. You can't stay ahead of it.
There's nothing that would piss off any group.
It's like you're going, he just has to find the person.
That's it. Yeah.
Very simple. Very simple but complicated
finding him and he'd go like, that's what you know that that's
that's doing really well. So I wouldn't be surprised in
the future if you start seeing more shows.

(02:18:34):
I want to say that of that ilk, but of that thought process.
I'm going simple clean writing, you know, and I think, you know,
it's funny. It's like it's, I don't know,
I'm spoiled from for sitcoms because of I did it.
So what I see someone doing it poorly.
It just is like I can't watch. Yeah, I like, yeah.
I just like, I don't know about you, Fred, but I'm like, I go

(02:18:56):
there's a something called George or Martha's first wedding
or whatever. And we watched like 7 minutes.
Oh my God. Yeah, it's interesting because,
you know, we made our living writing sitcoms and I, I don't
really what? Too many no?
There's not a lot of them on TV actually.
Here's The thing is that they want more sitcoms because
they're cheaper to make. I fear they may have broken.

(02:19:19):
See, the thing was was that here's how it works.
Garry Marshall hires Dave Duquanand towards him, right?
Dave Duquan hires me, mentors me, right?
And then after me, they broke the chain.
And so I don't know how many people know how to do this.
I don't know because you're going, this was all based upon,

(02:19:40):
you know, writers from the 50s teaching writers in the in the
60s and the 70s and da da, da dada, on and on.
But that was that was broken. The only funny show on right now
is Saint Denis Medical. To me, that's a funny show.
Right, right. Wow.
That's Justin Spitzer. That's quite funny.
But I'm like, I watched another new one recently.
I'm like going I know well, you know, just one show cause the

(02:20:00):
show called mid century modern and I was, I was curious because
we watch Modern Family every night.
We'll go to bed. Laugh before you go to bed.
Healthiest thing. So we watched Ron and family and
Mitch and Cam are of course a big component of it and they're
hilarious and the world they go into and this is like going it's
great. And I'm that's my expectation.

(02:20:21):
And then I watched my mid century modern.
I'm like going, yeah, these guysdid it better.
I mean, I did it better. It's like I'm going, they're not
making me laugh the way these guys did.
But I mean, it's Christopher, Christopher Lloyd and Steve
Leviton just did. It's I look at it now.
It's I just don't have. I don't know how they did it,
the physical comedy. I don't know how they did it.

(02:20:43):
And unless we did it, we did some great physical comedy.
Yeah. They were doing stuff on a level
that I've never seen before and I've never seen against again.
But it's but it's just like it is.
It is sad, though. It's sad that the sitcom, say
the sitcom, you know, it's like you're going it brings people
joy. And it's like, and also made a
lot of money and they ran away from it.

(02:21:04):
I'm like, wait, what? Yeah, yeah, it's very sad, so.
Now, so now they're in trouble. You know, the whole reality
business is like a in a depression from my
understanding, because they wantthis reality way.
And I'm going, you know, that's not a long term, it's not not a
good style long term business plan because when the
advertising dollars go down, which they have, you got this
thing that's not making much money and the resale of it

(02:21:25):
probably isn't that great either.
Right, right. I mean, you know, Netflix seems
to be doing very well with reality television shows, so
that there, there might be an exception to the rule there for
sure. Oh, sure, there's got to be
stuff that does well, but you know, it's not the same post
strike. It's not the same.
Oh, yeah, they're they're going,they're they're looking.

(02:21:46):
How do we cut our, our, our, ourdebt loads?
How do we make these shows cheaper?
You know, I mean, you can look at you look at the show, the pit
on it on Max and you can see what they're doing.
You go like, OK, I got Noah Wiley in the lead.
And I guarantee you, every otheractor who I'd never heard
before, it's probably getting the base pay.
You know, it's one guy making a lot of money, and everyone's

(02:22:08):
probably just getting the base pay.
They'll go up. But I'm going these are all new
people. They're all new people.
These are people I haven't seen.One guy, isn't it?
He had one credit before the show.
Wow. And so there's so many art in
the LA Times, they're just devastating how many people
can't make a living anymore that, you know, they're leaving
California. So lucky to do it When when we

(02:22:30):
we did it. Now Logan's son is a writer.
You know, though, they'll bring us some writers for, you know, a
month or two, they'll break the stories.
They're gone. I mean, we, you know, we would
shoot, you know, 24 episodes just, you know, had months,
months of work. And now it's just, it's so
difficult. I mean, we asked.
What part of the strike was about was that we had an

(02:22:50):
unwritten compact, which was, yeah, there's a couple staff
writers, a few story editors, somany producers, so many
executive producers, but it was like 8, anywhere from 8 to 10
people. And basically the system started
messing with that. And that's why there was, that's
one of the reason why there was a strike because they had to put
in writing what had been true for the last 20 odd years.

(02:23:14):
Because the writing staff seem back in the 60's, the writing
staff was, it wasn't really, it was like a producer, maybe a
story editor and everything elsewas freelance.
You know, as the 70s came upon, gradually the writing staff get
got bigger and bigger and bigger.
Sometimes writing Staffs got to be ridiculous sized like
Roseanne and 20 people. And it's like, yeah, it's like

(02:23:36):
20 they get doing 20 people. It's ridiculous.
But some of the shows had big staff like that.
But now with the studios going, I just thought, I think Fred
probably saw this. The Writers Guild sent us a
report that TV writing jobs havegone down by 37%.
But that makes sense in the sense that there were 600 shows

(02:23:59):
on the air. Now that's somewhere between 500
and 450. You know, take an average of 10
writers, it adds up to 1000 something.
You know, it's like you're going, it's like they're,
they're, they're contracting. Where there's 10 writers,
there's a lot less. Right.
Yeah, yeah. But now they've, now they've,
now they've put it into, it's like you cannot have less than
like 8 or 7 or 8 now. Now it's like, it's like you

(02:24:21):
have to have this position filled.
You can't, you know, so they basically took, they basically
took what we did, which happenednaturally and made it the law
because because they're just like there's people that just
try to, you know, disrupt and they try to disrupt and their
disruption isn't necessarily a good thing.
You know, I mean, you could argue Netflix disruption

(02:24:43):
probably wasn't a good thing with the business, you know,
because it's a company and a stock that doesn't make sense,
just like just in and so but you.
So what the studios did was theytried to copy something that
does that doesn't make sense because it's what they always
done. They did it with sound.
They did it TV. They did they always just DVDs.

(02:25:05):
They all go when someone finds something.
They all, they'll go that way, except if you all go that way,
you get up with a giant debt load.
And they have a lot of them giant debt loads.
Yeah. It's really, it's, it's like,
you know, it's really it's, it's, it's, you know, there's a
new TV show called the Studio onApple.
Yep. Yep.
And he's getting on the nitty gritty of what's wrong.

(02:25:27):
It's like on, you know, this is this is not.
And when I started out, I started out working at Universal
and there was a guy named Lou Wasserman.
Lou Wasserman was the town. If there was going to be a
strike, he'd fix it. If there needed to be a strike,
he'd let it happen. This guy was the he was the guy.
He said what I what Lou says goes well, there's no Lou
Wasserman in that. There's no CEO who speaks for

(02:25:50):
the town. Yep.
And it's like in in the end of the strike, three of the CE OS
had it had it had it basically to the negotiation together,
because basically it's the firsttime on a negotiation.
I don't know about you, Fred, but that's the first time I ever
saw this. Get everything we wanted,
everything we wanted because they knew.
One studio said to them, writersand actors, we have to do this

(02:26:13):
or we're going under. I don't know what studio it was,
but they used to were like, we're going under because it's
like what they were. They were doing stuff that was
like, this is an example of whenI did the Pavarotti movies in
Boston. There's a DVA negotiation coming
up, but we were told if there's a strike, we're just going to

(02:26:35):
film the opera, the whole thing and sell it as a documentary.
So they had a plan of, oh, you know, there's a, there's a,
there's a risk here when this, they didn't plan that way this
year, last year. I mean, whatever this thing
happened, it was like Deadpool was the middle of filming.
Like why in the world we start filming Deadpool when, you know,

(02:26:58):
there's a potential lockout? I think it's The thing is these
sets stay up and they got to payrent for months and months and
carry all this stuff over. So I'm going, it's going, this
isn't very professional. What's going on here, right?
I just thought that's still blumbling.
This is just thought like this is something's wrong here.

(02:27:18):
Yeah. This is really neat.
This is, there's a lot going on,and it's like going whoa, you
know? Yeah.
Well, I appreciate all the insight that you guys have given
both on your experience with Family Matters and all the other
experiences that you've had in the business.
Can you let us know how we can keep a deck with you via a
website or social media? How we can keep up with what
you're doing? I'm on Facebook and I'm on X.

(02:27:41):
Yeah. What's your handle?
How can we find you? S Langford scare.
OK. And you, Fred?
See, I'm only on Instagram. I think it's Freddie, Freddy
Junior. I'm not I'm not a big social old
guy. I mean, that's.
OK, that's OK. Yeah.
I mean, Instagram is how we how we connect it.
So yeah. But thank you Fred Fox and

(02:28:02):
Stephen Langford. I mean, I appreciate you guys
giving your experience on the I'm.
Sorry you're so long. No, no, no, no, no, no.
No, no, I mean, this was great. I mean, I wanted to get a a nice
full in depth conversation aboutwhat you guys been through and
and this was great. So yeah, I appreciate you a lot
for for doing this. I know it's a little bit earlier
in California there. Are you still in California,
Steve? You are?
Yeah. I'm in Tarzana.
I'm in Tarzana. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

(02:28:25):
Yeah, Thank you guys so much. I mean, I thank.
You. Yeah, definitely.
I would definitely talk with, you know, for more hours and ask
you more questions. But time is of the essence.
But. Best to Andrew.
Thank you. Yes, I'll tell him you guys said
hi. Thank you so much.
Yeah, but yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.
Take care and have a great day. You too.
Thanks. Bye bye.
All right, bye, bye.

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Family Matters | Fred Fox Jr. & Stephen Langford | Writers/Producers

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Family Matters | Fred Fox Jr. & Stephen Langford | Writers/Producers