May 12, 2025 • 63 mins
It was a pleasure to speak to "Family Matters" cinematographer and director Gregg Heschong! He gives us the inside scoop on stunts, the visual palette he uses for different skin tones, the live action and animation blend in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit", the compliment Ted Danson gave him on the set of "Becker", shooting a multi-camera sitcom outdoors with a studio audience present, and more! Check out his IMDB, he's got CREDITS!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
I appreciate you spending time with us.
So usually it's me and my Co host Andrew.
He wasn't able to join us because of a scheduling
conflict, but for the past couple years we've been
recapping one of our favorite childhood television shows,
Family Matters, and we were looking through the list of
credits and found that, you know, you were listed as a
(00:27):
director of photography for 168 episodes between seasons 2
through 8. I know you directed 3 episodes,
so naturally. Three.
It might have been four, I'm notsure.
OK I mean IMDb has three but I know from talking to Co creator
William Beckley that IMDb may not give the complete picture.
(00:47):
So your your your guess is probably better.
Great, you've been able to contact all these people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. William Bickley, Director, Rich
Corral, writer, producer. Gary Goodrich.
I mean, we've had a lot of greatpeople come on and talk, and
we're glad to add you to the list.
So first question for someone listening and watching who may
(01:08):
not know what a director of photography does, do you mind
explaining that? I don't lied a director of
photography, DP or cinematographer.
It depends, you know, on what what part of the world you're
you're you're in. But here in the States, we're
known primarily as a director ofphotography.
(01:29):
So I am, I am the one who is responsible for how the show
looks and how it's photographed,how it, you know from from these
first initial script meetings inall the way through post, but
primarily on set. So I'm there every day with with
(01:52):
rehearsals and finding how the show is going to be lit.
What we're doing with what are called swing sets.
I mean, as you know, with familymatters, as with a number of
other, there are kind of what are known as permanent sets.
Like the living room? Like the living room?
Like the kitchen? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, the Winslow house. So those get set a certain way
(02:15):
and then I will adjust accordingly to from episode to
episode depending on what you know, what our actions going to
be, what time of day it is, whatwe had a lot of stunts with
family matters, as you know. So that was always that required
a lot of a lot of attention. And then with each episode,
(02:38):
generally there would be what are called swing sets, some very
simple if if you know, the show were really elaborate.
I mean, I did think we did things from having a frozen lake
on stage to airplanes to boats to, you know, snow anyway.
Yeah, and Speaking of Frozen Lake, I, I, I'm automatically
(03:04):
thinking of the Season 2 episodethat we recap not too long ago,
Ice Station Winslow, where Carl essentially forces his son Eddie
to go ice fishing with him to spend some quality time.
Was was that an actual frozen lake?
Was all on stage. That was all on stage.
Yes, I would, yeah. I remember talking to Michael
Andrew about how it very much looked like it was a set built
(03:27):
on a sound stage as opposed to, like, I don't know, somewhere on
Lake Placid is. When you make those kind of
decisions, is that more so because of financial reasons or
because you just think that you could make a great set on a
stage? Well, right off the bat, yes, we
could do some great sets and we did.
Lynn Griffin, who we unfortunately just lost
(03:50):
recently, was the production designer I think through most of
almost all of the series. And yeah, we we would plan and,
you know, do what we needed to do to make it as realistic as
possible. So it was it was the show was a
(04:11):
a a challenge every week, but a lot of fun.
How so Can you? Can you describe how it was a
challenge? Well, just like what we're
talking about you bring now remember that.
So these family matters like many other situation companies
hopefully are all done in front of an audience.
So this is all live in front of an audience every scene.
(04:34):
So that requires a great deal ofplanning in order to how do you
fit like the, the the frozen lake set you're referencing or I
just did onto the stage and makeit work seamlessly from
beginning to end because we would shoot in sequence, not
like you would do in a, you know, feature film or some
(04:56):
single camera. So, so we can shoot out of
order. We Family Matters was presented
like a play from the beginning to the end in sequence.
So when Carl drowns in that frozen lake and Eddie eventually
saves him, like is Reginald Val Johnson literally like drowning
(05:16):
in a in a lake that's making himreally chilly?
Or is it just like warm water and we're.
We had a tank in there under theend of the whole set was built
on an elevation so we could do this.
Now I can't quite remember there.
Sometimes we would do some sequences as a pre shoot part of
it just in order to be able to pull off some certain effects
(05:40):
that wouldn't be as. Now by appreciate do you mean
like shooting it without the audience presents?
Yeah, OK. Like like the day before.
Yeah, yeah. Can you do?
Do you have a stunt in mind thatreally stands out to you where
you're like, Oh my God, like that is just, that was like a
very challenging or a very fun experience.
(06:02):
As a director of photography, any stunt for family matters
that that really stands out to your mind.
Well, I mean, we just mentioned one.
There was another another episode where we had had Carl
and Urkel in an airplane flying.Yeah.
So I was all done on stage. Well, that was, you know, a
(06:25):
complicated setup bringing in, you know, gimbal to articulate
this airplane and with the wind and clouds and all of that.
Wow. Cranes, you know how to mount
the cameras there. I mean, there were so many
different stunts. I mean, we, we crash cars, we
burned things down, you know? Yeah, You know what the the
(06:46):
crash course from Season 2 whereEddie crashes the car into the
living room. I mean, aside from the story
device of like, Oh my God. Like, what are the chances
someone's going to drive a car through a house and be sober?
But we were. Yeah.
Just also wondering about the logistics of that.
Like did. I mean, it was a real car and it
(07:07):
crashed through the set and I, Imean, wow, because do you guys
have to rebuild that set for thenext episode as if it's nothing,
right? So can you describe like what
went into that decision to crashthe set and then after rebuild
it? Again, yeah, we'd work with the
(07:27):
the special effects thought we had.
So that car was all rigged so ithad a positive start and stop,
but that was all for safety reasons.
But yeah, this, the set had to be that wall had to be
dismantled and essentially rebuilt to be a breakaway so
(07:50):
that it would safely break away,you know?
And I mean since you're producing.
The show, it's done, Yeah. You got to go back and rebuild
it. And, and I mean, the show is
produced week to week. So like, did you guys have to
take like a long hiatus to rebuild that set or was it just
kind of like you could do it? No, yeah, it was, it was the
thing with with especially showslike this is you've got to have
(08:13):
a great team behind you. But no, it's, it's all done
within the week. You know, we came back the next
week for the next episode. Wow, how?
How did you get the job on family matters in the 1st place?
How did you get connected with them?
As best I recall, I think, I think I don't know who first Bob
(08:36):
Boyett, who who is just a tremendous individual on it.
And you know, Shepherd had not this, not only this show, but
many others I've, I've worked for Bob over the over the years
on different, different, different projects, different
shows. I I don't know who first brought
me to his attention, but I was actually involved at the time
(08:58):
with working on a feature with Steven Spielberg called Hook.
Yeah, with Robin Williams, Yeah.Yeah.
And Julia Roberts and so I, I was doing one of the units that
there were many units because that was a very complicated
feature as well. And I remember taking, I had to
(09:19):
work out a time between shootingfor Hook to come in and and talk
with with Bob. And I think Reg Corral was part
of that meeting too. So those are the first two
people I met and they they offered me, they wanted me to
come in, take over the show for what would be the second season.
(09:42):
And I was also coming in to shoot perfect strangers then
too. So I was actually 2.
Yeah, the predecessor to Family Matters.
So when you're going in to see like, you know, Rich Corral, Bob
Boyed of Miller Boyed Productions, which produce
Family Matters, do you come in with like a specific like visual
(10:04):
portfolio of your work, say somethings that you shot already
from? Back in those days, no.
I came in and it was wow. They wanted to meet me.
They knew my credits. They'd seen, you know, some of
what I'd done. It was kind of a meeting to see
how we got along that, what we felt about it and how interested
(10:26):
I was in joining them. You you joined family matters as
DP in season twos like, you know, fall of 1990.
Can you kind of list what you had already come with?
Just just some of your credits if you don't mind.
Like obviously to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean it doesn't have to be allof them, but maybe just some
that like. You know, it was a very time I
(10:50):
actually, on the heels of joining family members that was
Hook. I'd actually done a little low
budget feature for Rodger Cormanbecause a friend of mine had
asked me to do that, which was all location up in the Sierras,
right. That film was called A Cry in
the Wild, but previously to thatI'd also done it was called
(11:14):
Second Unit on Who Frank Roger Rabbit.
Yes. I've done, I've done the first
multiple camera show that I I did was the Tracey Allman show.
Oh yeah, yeah, with which was when Fox became a network or
they were trying to be. This was one of their kind of
(11:39):
shows they were launching with. And I believe The Simpsons
launched from that show because there was a little sketch that
they had that turned The Simpsons into a series
eventually. And.
That was a great cast. I mean that some Julie Kavner
and Don casting out. That was some great people.
Sam Murray. But what was I going to say?
So Tracy. So through that, I, I was
(12:00):
working with Jim Brooks, who hadstarted, you know, it pitched
that series. Tracy Uhlmann.
Yeah, Jim Brooks and so based onI also did worked on a film with
Jim Brooks called Broadcast News.
It's around that same time all kinds of runs together.
(12:23):
You had mentioned working as like the second unit director of
photography for Who Framed RogerRabbit, which is most known for
being able to blend humans and animated characters.
How does that make your job in that cinematic photographic
(12:43):
world different as opposed to doing it just like
straightforward with live actionhumans when when you have to
blend humans and animation like that?
Yeah, a lot. Of planning.
Yeah, talk about it. Roger Rabbit was was really
unique at that time. I mean, yeah, in in the you
know, you go through Hollywood history and there have been
(13:04):
instances of films combining animation with live action.
Like Gene Kelly did a famous dance number back in the day.
I forget the name of the film, but they're, you know, and
Disney had had experience with that.
I mean, I actually, previous to this had worked with on on the
first Tron, which was kind of similar live action and out of
(13:27):
effects. But so to going back to Roger
Rabbit, we had a lot, a lot of planning because we were
shooting the live action parts to which the animation was then
added later, afterwards. Yeah.
So, you know, blocking and camera angles and how it's lit
(13:49):
is was really important so that it would translate properly when
the animation is coming in. And there was a process that
that Bob Zemeckis and, and Richard Williams, who was the
director of animation, they worked out a, a really great way
(14:11):
of, of kind of making the animation 3 dimensional with
shadows. So it was just a flat character.
Watch the film you and I'm very aware of, you know, how kind of
realistically a character like Jessica Rabbit fits into.
Yeah. And then we would work with
(14:33):
cutouts of where let's say for example, Rodger would be.
So let's say if it's a scene, what it was a scene with Bob
Hoskins, he would know where to focus while we were shooting
alive. And he was.
I was really impressed with him to be able to act with an
invisible character and actuallyhis his focus was exactly where,
(14:59):
let's say Roger would be right was a huge room.
He you know, and to maintain that through a scene was was a
pretty incredible. Wow.
Lot of fun. Yeah, and it ended up being a
very iconic film that's talked about this many years later.
Yes, it should, because it was terrific.
You directed a handful of episodes of Family Matters and
(15:22):
talk to me about that. Like what what that difference
is like compared to being a director of photography.
I mean, I would assume that you would prefer more of the
director of photography kind of work, but you know, when you the
times that you stepped into the director's chair, tell me what
that has. Because I wanted to.
(15:42):
I mean, I find that, you know, Istarted out way back in the
beginning of time in theatre. I was still a teenager.
I was, I worked in regional and summer stock theatre and did
everything and even did some acting.
(16:03):
My interest in film, you know, Iam very much kind of in favour
of it is it is a very cooperative effort and I love
having actors coming in that areinvolved.
Really want to contribute, make suggestions as I would hopefully
get from even crew members. There have been times where
(16:26):
somebody has been attentive says, you know what if and try
that out and it's you know, it'sgreat what the difference.
I mean, I wanted to direct and Isince then done other shows like
News Radio and Becker directly. I, I, I find it really
(16:46):
enjoyable. I mean, you get to not only and
as ADP, I'm well aware of what, what is possible and what isn't.
So in some respects that's a, that's a big, big help.
I'm kind of straddling, you know, that the the active acting
creative event and the and the whole technical and in terms of
(17:10):
producing the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I would assume that they're direct director of
photography. It's strictly from a visual
sense. And then when you're director,
you add on, you know, as, as youhad mentioned, you know, kind of
communicating with the actors, figuring out, you know, how to
say this line or how to, you know, choose this blocking, how
to, you know, things like that. And, and it seems like that was
(17:31):
an enjoyable, that was an enjoyable addition for for you
once once you became director. Well, I'll give you 1 little
quick example. As a director, this is not
family matters. This was in a a show I did with
Ted Danson called Becker. Yeah, great show.
That was a lot that terrific cast too. 1 little example, the
the scene as written, we were inthe office, the Becker's
(17:56):
doctor's office, and there was some bit of dialogue or
something going back and forth with Linda character about some
sort of planning, some sort of surprise for Becker, right?
And he, unbeknownst to her, he had come in and was standing
(18:17):
right behind her. And while she's going on with
the the character's name is Margaret, about what they're
planning to do. And.
And she says, but you know, don't let him know.
And in the script there, there was a line and where Becker
announces himself right behind her to surprise her.
(18:40):
Well, so I'm directing that scene and it just, it just
occurred to me visually, what ifthere were no words he was
wearing like this little party hat thing to show off instead of
the line. What I had Ted do is just take
the little party hat thing, pullit up and let it snap on top of
her head. Well, she turned there.
(19:02):
So the whole, you know, it said so much more visually and it was
much more funny than a a line ofdialogue.
Yeah, as a director, that's someof the things you can.
And I would imagine the audiencereacted wonderfully to that.
And how did Ted, how did the actress react to that choice?
I thought. It was great.
I, I, Dave Hackel was the, I, I pitched it to, to Dave when we
(19:24):
were doing a, a run through and I said, listen, here's what,
here's what we're going to do. Just take a look at it and see
what you think. Everybody laughed.
So that was that. I.
Love that. Speaking of shows like Becker
that you've worked on. So you know, you're talking
about, you know, being ADP on Becker with Ted Danson, New
Adventures of Old, Christine with Julia Louis Dreyfus and
(19:47):
Till Death with Brad Garrett. And right away I'm thinking
like, Oh my God, these are like 3 heavy hitter stars.
They've been on these iconic sitcoms prior, Everybody Loves
Raymond. Cheers.
Seinfeld and going into these next shows that they're doing
for you as ADP, does that add some sort of pressure to get it
(20:11):
right, get it perfect because you kind of want to meet the
standard of the stars, or is it just kind of a another job that
you know you want to excel at? I want to meet my standard.
I see. I see.
So that's a really. Yeah, I mean, I don't.
It's about, it's about the the script and performance, you
know, whether, you know, if you're, I don't care how famous
(20:35):
you are or what you've done before this right now, this is
what we're doing. And I think they're going to be
convincing and funny and or or not, it's not about, you know,
dragging along the credit list. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I know it's all explained in the visuals, but I
wonder if there's a way you could describe the the Greg
(20:57):
Heshan brand as it pertains to your director of photography.
Like how can somebody watch an episode where you have worked on
it and say and say to themselves, OK, yeah, what I'm
seeing here, that's a great piece of work compared to
whatever other DP might do. Like is there like a way to
describe it or is it just you got to see it to?
Believe I'll give you, I'll giveyou 1 little example on this,
(21:19):
this again. So one of the things that I've
worked now you take family matters.
Family matters was a challenge because every week you would
have a cast of mixed races. I've got all kinds of different
skin tones. How do I, how do I light for
each character? And they're moving around.
(21:42):
So it's, it's not like, you know, one set up another set.
This is constant. So I, I would experiment and I
actually came up with a, a specific package of filtration
for the lamps that was very complementary to each skin tone
and people could walk within it and it worked really well.
(22:06):
The other thing with my theatre background, bringing in certain
types of, of instruments that normally weren't used and motion
picture production to a certain degree, but for example, there's
a, a, it's called an ellipsoidallight, it's called a Leco.
(22:26):
And if you go to a theater production, this is how theater
is lit. And I started bringing those
into the sets for a number of different reasons.
One was to reach characters eyesfrom even across the set, which
when you're working with four cameras is not that damn easy to
do because there's you've got 4 cameras all happening at once.
(22:51):
So I can't just light you for one shot and then move on.
I've got to have the whole sceneseamlessly lit for the entire
run of the scene. So I would start you and
redeveloped a certain filtrationfor these Lycos too that would
you know, be able to selectivelypick out where a character was
standing for that moment. And given the technology kind of
(23:16):
evolving, be able to dim those lights in and out as needed.
So I, I would there was a lot I asked of, of the the electric
crew and the grip crew to put these shows together.
But it would going to Becker. There was a time when I remember
(23:37):
Ted. So I would use this technique
also for other shows. And Becker, Ted, Ted came up to
me one day and he said, you know, this is the first show
I've ever been able to see my eyes.
Wow, really. Like even like.
Cheers. The yeah, well, go back and look
and you'll you'll there is yeah,there there would because
(23:58):
everything in in the multiple camera format has to be from
above primarily. You can't put anything obviously
in the set like you would do in single camera.
So all everything has to be fromabove or from the front, from
back. But it's out, you know, it's out
(24:19):
of sight. So these were ways I was working
to be able to reach through a set and light it a little bit
more like you would in a single camera show from setup to setup
to setup. So yeah, Ted, Ted was watching.
He said, you know, and if you, if you know, Cheers is a great
(24:40):
show with a tremendous case. But if you do look at it, you'll
notice that people kind of have what you call raccoon eyes.
There's the lights all coming from above and it gets their
eyes get dark. Yeah.
Now that I think about it, yeah,yeah, yeah.
There's a difference, yeah. Now that I think about cheers, I
mean, there, there does seem to be sort of this like, I don't
know, this, this dimness to the,the, the, the bar lighting, sort
(25:06):
of like it's, you know, that light that you shine on somebody
if you're giving them a detective interrogation, but you
turn down the lighting just a little bit.
Well, I mean it, it was the process they use now.
This goes back quite a ways. This is all film now, right?
Even family matters. We were shooting on on film, as
I recall what I'd heard from Burroughs when I was working
(25:32):
with Cheers. They wanted to try they would so
the camera shoots color negative.
But what they did was then make and if I'm I may be wrong, but I
think I'm recalling this correctly.
What they did was then make a positive print and that's what
they transferred, which would beinherently more contrasting.
(25:55):
It wasn't, you know, but it's not my understanding that was a
conscious choice on their. Part now talking about
filtration and making sure that people's skin tones look great.
I'm, I'm just going to give an example for family matters like
you, you take the the teacher, Miss Steuben from season 2,
who's white, and then you take Julia White as Steve Urkel,
(26:17):
who's black, and then you put them in a scene together.
Can you just give me an example as to how you make their skin
tones look equally appealing andyou know?
A there's the level of like the amount of illumination.
So I, I could plan and adjust that accordingly.
(26:37):
So let's say for Jaleel, he might be standing wherever he's
standing and I might increase the the luminance just slightly
and and then where who were you referencing, miss?
Tubin, Miss Tubin, the the teacher who is sick and tired of
hercal. Right.
So I might, I might reduce the amount of light there.
(26:58):
But the other thing would be in terms of the filtration from the
lamps there. I forget the name of the
specific gel that I finally adopted that would work
terrifically for not for both skin tones, for black skin
tones, for white skin tones. And in between 2:00 and then I
(27:21):
would be able to, when the show is transferred in post, either
increase or decrease that amount.
So for like Jaleel, he would have the full effect of this.
It sort of would warm the skin tone a little bit pleasing, but
I could for a character, a very white character, I could reduce
that slightly in post. Gotcha, gotcha.
(27:46):
It would look seamless. Yeah, this is great information
that you're telling me. I never because I just kind of
figured like, all right, you know, you somehow.
Exactly. You do the best you can with
what you got. But I didn't think about like,
you know, say you had a show with all white people or all
Asian people. That's probably going to be a
lot more easier for ADP to handle because everybody's kind
(28:06):
of consistent as opposed to a more diverse or like family
matters where it's like, Oh my God, like I got to make sure
that this white person looks good in the light or this Asian
person looks good in the in the camera.
So yeah, this is great information.
And thankfully, we've moved intoa time where these days most
casts are diverse. You know, it's not just it's not
(28:28):
just a bunch of white people on on a set, unless it's a period
piece or, you know, or if you were doing, you know, solely
black film. I mean, you know, none too.
Can you talk about some of the commercial DP work that you've
done? I mean, you've, you've done
commercials for 7-11 McDonald's.You know what?
(28:51):
What? What about that stands out to
you as opposed to doing like ATVshow or film?
Commercials are a whole nother KMA a they really pay well.
Yeah, like. Can.
You disclose how much? Well, I mean these a lot have to
generally, I mean then doing an episodic series, but and they're
(29:17):
they're finite. You know, there's a but one of I
remember doing this back in the day I worked with, I guess what
would be best called a special effects house production
company. It was called Robert Abel and
Associates. Now this we're really going back
(29:38):
in time here. This is late 70s and I'm just a
punk kid pretty much. But they wanted me, they hired
me, I'm there and I got to do all kinds of things here.
I actually built miniatures thatI would then photograph.
But there was one series of sponsor remembered doing, I
(30:00):
think it was for Chevrolet, and we had setups in, in, in, on
stage and studio. But I, they want I, they
actually sent me to New York to go do aerials.
For those. Aerial shots, you know, from a
plane or a helicopter or. Something okay, okay.
And I did a whole series I wish I I don't think I have a copy of
(30:22):
that I wish I did of that were insert concerted within the
commercial of these areas of NewYork.
I remember once flying and like doing a whole circle a number of
times around the Chrysler building at night, hanging out
the side of a helicopter. Oh my God.
This building, I mean, it was, you know, you got to be young
and and kind of. And not afraid of heights.
(30:45):
Not. Afraid of heights, yeah, but the
shots were absolutely fantastic.I did them at an altered frame
rate. So it it would it kind of
stuttered. It worked really well within
that commercial. And there were, there were
others in terms of commercials, you know, I remember doing a
whole series for United Airlinesand you're, they were once on on
(31:09):
this is at LAX actually, and doing some take off shots.
You know, I think what there wasn't only just 740 sevens, but
taking off. So I, I was, and the people that
were with me on on the end of the runway.
So The Jets, you know, come off the taxiway and line up on the
(31:30):
runway to take off. So I'm behind, behind the plane.
And we've done a number of shots, you know, of watching the
planes lift off. This one pilot must have come
around and seen us in hand to God.
He, he got the clearance for take off.
He must have gunned those engines.
He blew everything away. Oh no.
(31:52):
Back to the to the backstop where they, you know, Oh no,
everything that was loose was was gone you.
Didn't know you guys were shooting what you didn't know
you guys were. Shooting.
My guess is he knew we were shooting.
Oh, and he decided to just, I mean, there was, there was no
reason for that, but I whatever.I mean, it was.
(32:13):
It's all on film. Oh, OK, my God, all that.
Stuff that was a surreal experience, yeah.
I bet. So I guess the question for in
terms of like doing commercials,since they could be fun,
adventurous like you had described and they also pay very
well, why not just do DP for commercials?
Is it just because like, you know, there's not as much work
(32:35):
for that and you have to kind oflike vary it up or do you like
more of a challenge with TV and film?
Like why? I like telling stories.
Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, that's really
why I, I, you know, gravitated toward this, you know, not only
as a cinematographer, but also as a director.
I mean, commercials are fun, butand, and you're kind of telling
(32:56):
a little tiny story, but there'sno, there's no real arc to it.
You're not, you know, developingcharacter week after week.
And that's, that's what's great about, you know, feature films
and episodic television. And I like telling stories.
So there you go. IMDb said you had an
unaccredited camera operator experience on a Family Matters
episode, I think before you had officially been hired as their
(33:18):
DP. That starting out in the earlier
days as a camera operator, did that kind of plant the seeds for
your interests to take it up to the next level with director of
photography? Because there's a visual
component that seems to be in common between camera operating
and director of photography. Well, yeah, there's composition.
Exactly. Was did that lead me to?
(33:39):
No, you're talking to somebody. I was, you know, I, I, I did the
theater. I, I started, I went through the
UCLA film department. Luckily I made it through the
1st 2 years. They were probably ready to get
rid of me those first two years because the only reason I was
there was to start working in film.
And you know, the first two years of undergraduate colleges,
(34:02):
all general education and I I was so rich.
I think they were ready to bounce me out once I got into
the film department and was actually producing it.
Now my interest has always been in in in no shooting, but
directing. And so camera operating.
I got why was I doing that? Because I referenced that that
(34:24):
one, excuse me, firm. I was working with Robert Abel
and associates. There is there is something you
know the difference Union, non union right at this point in
time, Abel and associates was a non union house and and
honestly, I'm so old at this point.
I can remember the time when youcouldn't get in the union unless
(34:46):
you knew somebody. Oh yeah, really?
And it was, it was like a real close, I, I actually was part of
a class action suit against the camera Guild at one point
because of, you know, but Long story short, so working with
Abel, they actually became a signatory because of some of the
(35:07):
work they were doing. Here was my entry, because they
were becoming a signatory, I wasnow eligible to join the union,
which I did. And I had a choice back then of
either going into the union as astill photographer, which I've
done a lot of still photography,or as a camera operator.
And I'm sorry, what is the unioncalled that represents these?
(35:31):
It's called the International Cinematographers Guild, or Local
Local 600. It's part of the Olayatzi Yeah
union organization, which coversevery craft you can think of.
You pet it. And and you can only get
professional work joining the union Or is there a way to break
(35:52):
in non union? Is there what?
Is there a way to break in and say do TV and film doing like
being a non union member or can you only be in the union?
These days that's work. It's much easier.
You can actually build up so many hours and apply and you you
become a union. Member, but back then you had to
know like a cousin. Yeah, back then it was still so
(36:14):
old Hollywood. Yeah, that if you didn't know
somebody, forget it. You there was.
So anyway, they they became. So I had a choice and I decided,
you know, I'm going to still photography really is great and
I love it, but I'm going to go in as a camera operator.
Of course, nobody knew me. So I starved for a couple of
(36:36):
years because, you know, nobody knew me.
But you gradually build up credits and contacts over the
years. What would you say?
What would you say was your first big break into the the
work that you wanted to be doing?
As a camera operator. Not as a camera operator, no.
I mean it as. Like one thing leads to another.
(36:56):
For example, I, I as a camera operator, I could see I.
So there was I I got, I had the opportunity to work with Sven
Nakis, who was Ingmar Bergman's cinematographer, done all those
great films. Amar Amar Bergman.
His, his cinematographer's name was Sven Nagfist.
(37:20):
I see, I see. So Sven, you know, anyway, Sven
came to the States and was doingsome American productions that
point. So I, I actually, you know, just
by some of the other work I've done with people I know, it got
to work. I was hired by Sven to do.
I did a film with him called Cannery Row as a camera
operator, which was fantastic. Another film, well with Bob
(37:46):
Fosse called *80. So I was a camera operator on
that too, which was a really unique experience.
Did you do any camera operating on the Carol Burnett Show?
This Mothers Brothers Comedy Hour?
I know. You.
I'm a young. No, I was, I was actually what
Carol Burnett show. I was actually what's called a
(38:10):
page back then, OK, I worked at,you know, I was still in college
and this was my, you know, kind of part time job.
I landed. So I would, I was backstage, you
know, page for the likes of The Smothers Brothers Show and Carol
Burnett, where you, you know, did whatever somebody wanted you
to do. What did you do?
Like what were the responsibilities they gave you?
(38:30):
Run errands. You did handle audience coming
in, you know, Yeah. It just kind of, you know, make
sure somebody was in the right place and whatever you were
directed to do. So a a version of like a show
business internship where you know you're.
Yeah, exactly. But you know, I, I've met, met a
whole lot of great people then too.
I mean, you know, Steve Martin was a writer on The Smothers.
(38:55):
Yes, he was. I also, you know, was able to.
I remember having one really interesting day when Joan Baez
came on the Smothers show, and this is back when the draft was
still a really happening deal and I was just the proper age
4/2 and I so we did. Vietnam War draft, Yeah.
(39:18):
Yeah, for Vietnam. So John had come on this episode
and I had introduced myself. And then it was how the how I
ended up doing this, I can't quite remember.
But the show, that episode was over and I spent about two hours
after the show, what's what was called the artist entrance with
(39:41):
Joan Baez and Tom Smothers discussing world events, the war
in Vietnam, what all was happening.
It was, yeah, I think I was probably, what was I then, 19 or
something. Yeah, yeah.
And I bet that was a discussion filled with what?
Anxiety, Frustration. Curiosity.
Yeah, not only in my part, but theirs as well.
(40:03):
Yeah. Is there any?
Did you gain any cinematography education of sorts by observing
what was happening with The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour
and The Carol Burnett Show? And like, were you picking up on
what the DP did this day or whatthe camera operator did that day
and that kind of like stayed with you as you got it?
Professionally, it was a different medium because those
(40:25):
shows were all videotaped. They weren't film.
So there's, you know, videotape in those days had different,
different requirements. But yeah, was I paying
attention? Yes, I was.
And how how the shows were put together.
And I actually, I can still remember there was, there was a
(40:46):
show that I'd come back from doing a feature and I was asked
to come and shoot a, it was a, it was like a, it was no
audience, but it was kind of a little multi kind of single
camera show, a show called Open House.
And actually, Ellen DeGeneres, that was her first job.
Wow. OK, that's where.
(41:07):
I first met Ellen. Yeah.
Nice. That's an aside.
Anyway, the point was this was avideotaped show, and which meant
you had I I was lighting the show.
But off the set is something called the truck where all the
technicians are, the video controllers and all that.
I remember this one guy telling me you've got to make it
(41:30):
brighter, you know, and flatter.And I said, that's not what I'm
doing here. That's not right, right.
You know, there was that was kind of like this old school
attitude of how things had to be.
It was like, it's like the old trope is that comedy has to be
bright. Not necessarily, no.
No, not no, not necessarily. It's true, but trust me there
(41:52):
that you ran into that a lot of long times.
Comedy has to be bright. No it doesn't.
Can you give me an example of a comedy that you worked on where
you you darkened it? Yeah.
I mean, look at look at like thethe Becker series, it's got a
kind of much more Moody, darker feeling to it.
(42:13):
Did Family Matters ever have that moment, or were you always
told to? Keep it up.
There were episodes where I, youknow, yes, went went a little
bit more that direction. No, there was an episode, I
forget exactly what the storyline was, where Laura was
having some big issue when we had some really nice quiet
moments with Laura and and mom and and it was at night and I
(42:37):
made it very much more we're. Talking like, like a back porch
moment like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laura and Harriet having a talk.OK.
Yeah, it was. It was Harry and Laura.
Anyway, I I remember making thatkind of darker, more Moody.
It felt right. Yeah, I think I know what you're
talking about. Yeah.
I mean, I just off the top of head, I know Laura and Harriet
(42:58):
have had intimate back porch conversations about a period
telling Laura to go easy on Steve Urkel because it's nice
to, you know, have a guy who likes you.
And Harriet was kind of commenting on how she wasn't get
paid attention to as much by herhusband Carl Winslow, moments
like that. We would also sometimes have
(43:20):
it's night scenes and some episodes where I I would bring
the house down and make it. Yeah.
Oh, like when when Rachel and Harriet were trying to figure
out what to do about their father, who came back to their
life for the first time in many years.
So that that's an example of very dramatic dark back porch
(43:41):
moment where you kind of broughtthe house down.
Yeah, yeah, I love. That I mean, again, it's IO.
I've always felt every script, every episode dictates the mood
and I I'm there to visually interpret that mood.
I love that. Well, Speaking of outdoor
scenes, what I was impressed by and thank you for sending me the
the the link to this You did. You were director of photography
(44:05):
for 10 episodes of the of the series Abby's.
Yeah. Usually when multicam sitcoms
shoot outdoors, it's like they're shooting a film.
There's no audience present. It's just something that the
audience has to see, like afterwards on, I don't know, a
TV screen in the sound stage studio.
But you actually filmed outdoor scenes with the studio audience
(44:30):
actually present at the outdoor.I'll tell you, that experience
was so much fun. Yeah.
Can you talk more about it? Like what?
What like you guys to create that innovative?
Moment the original pitch when Icame in to talk with Josh
Monmouth who created was that hewanted to do this half hour
comedy outdoors was the the the the conceit of the show was
(44:54):
Abby, you know IA a veteran was kind of running this you know
neighborhood bar outside and back of her house.
The neighborhood characters would come and you know hang
around kind of chairs like but he wanted to do it outdoors.
(45:17):
So that's why we started. We actually, we found this was
on the Universal back lot. It was up on top of a hill in
the back lot of Universal. There was an old some kind of
structure existing that fed power to something, right?
So the production designer, actually, she built around that,
(45:42):
creating the house and the outdoor bar.
And we brought in Bleacher seatsfor the audience and I built a
camera aisle just like you, you do would do on stage.
But the real challenge was there's nothing above you.
And remember. Yeah.
(46:03):
With multiple camera everything has to come above so.
Yeah, all the lighting and everything is above, in, in, in
the interior. So there's where I pulled from
all of my experience in, you know, kind of experimenting on
family matters and perfect strangers and Becker and all
that in terms of how to light across an open area.
(46:25):
So I with production design, we,we put things in there where I
could hide some of those theatrical lights and the set
dresser. We went through all kinds of
pulling stuff out of the head ofpractical lights or things that
hang in the set that would help serve really illuminating
(46:49):
certain areas. So it became, it became a kind
of interdepartmental challenge, bringing, bringing this
together. And it was, it was so much fun,
you know, and we'd shoot at night.
You know, and I would imagine ifI were DP on that show where
we're filming outdoors with an audience present outdoors, like
(47:10):
I'm, I'm automatically worried about something that's out of my
control, like say the weather, like how was how was that?
Well, if it rained, it would rain, wouldn't it?
I mean. Would you guys shoot around that
or? Well, we in the run that we had,
I only remember one one night that it started becoming kind of
damp, but it didn't actually rain.
(47:31):
But we had we had a whole, a whole duplicate set down on the
lot on stage. Just in case.
Yeah, but we actually, so that was actually used for rehearsal.
So we'd rehearse on that, you know, copy set.
And then on the day that you'd start camera blocking, we moved
(47:52):
up the hill to the actual outdoor set with cameras and
everybody to, you know, block, rehearse the show, and then the
next day shoot it. How did the audience take to
being outdoors and witnessing this show?
Did you have anybody that was like fishing for their jacket?
Well, yeah, but it's quite the adventure.
You know, by the end, we were, we were.
I mean, it had really there, there were like little space
(48:15):
heaters above that. There was a covering over the
audience at this point. It, it was, you know what it
was, it was like going to the Hollywood Bowl.
Yeah, yeah. It's what it was like.
Do you think that could have been sustained beyond the 10
episode run? Do you think that could have?
Been sure. I thought the show had a lot of
promise. Why NBC decided to pull the plug
(48:35):
on it, it's beyond me. Right?
There you go. Yeah, I saw that you were a
director of photography on 70 episodes of the sitcom News
Radio. And any memories that pop out
from working on that show, you know, working with the late,
great Phil Hartman, Joe Rogan, who is now, of course, you know,
the biggest podcaster in the world right now.
(48:56):
Yeah, but hey, that was a tremendous cast, Phil.
I mean, you know, Joe was much younger than Maura Tierney, you
know, Dave Foley, Andy Dick. It it was as an ensemble cast.
You talk about being inventive, you know, or improvising.
(49:17):
That went on every damn week. Does that make your job more
fun? More challenging?
Both. OK.
It's a, it's a, it's a, It's a conflicting thing, yeah.
I mean, it was, it was just the energy on that show was was
tremendous because it it was kind of you kind of never knew
from day-to-day what was kind ofhappened.
Yeah. But there's this kind of a,
(49:39):
there's kind of a great discovery when you embrace that,
that you know and say, this is, this is how we do it and this is
who we are. So I, I, I had a great time with
that show. I was fortunate to be able to
direct some of those episodes too is.
There something like is there like a visual example they can
(50:00):
think of from News Radio that kind of warms your heart and in
terms of your DP work? Look at the last episode.
Oh wow, I think the last episodethat you.
I mean, at least IMDb said that you left after season 4, which
was before the the Philip Hartman tribute episode in
season 5. But you but you worked in the on
(50:20):
the very last episode of News Radio is what you're.
Saying no the that season which was the Titanic episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Titanic parody.
Yeah. That's where The Newsroom
becomes the Titanic. Oh wow, OK.
Can you talk more about that or is that?
Something it was how much fun was that?
I mean, it was redressing the whole the whole thing to make it
like a ship. Wow.
(50:41):
And you know, it it everybody, Stephen Root had a great
character. I mean, Phil was they kind of,
you know, who was, who was the Foley was the captain Maura
Tierney had kind of the, the, the part of the girl.
(51:02):
You know, anyway, it was, you know, we just, we just went to
town on that, that thing. But, you know, outside the
windows of The Newsroom, it looked like you were at sea.
Yeah, I remember turning. One of the script points was Joe
Rogan's character was like the engineer or something fire
(51:22):
keeping the boilers running and the whole the whole News Radio
bathroom turned into the engine room with a glowing fire and we
had water, you know, one point the elevator doors have to close
because it's flooding. It's like.
Oh my God. And that.
And that was like, what was that?
(51:43):
Not too long after the actual movie, Titanic came out.
Yeah, yeah, well, sure. When did Titanic come out?
97 I believe. Yeah, so it was a little bit
after. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we were referencing a lot of it.
So I mean, that was, I mean as astand out kind of really funny
the episode to do, I would pick that.
(52:03):
I love that. And I think you were second unit
director of photography for the 1984 film version of Dune, is
that correct? Yeah, I worked.
I worked on on Dune. Can you, can you talk about that
and, and maybe comparison that you picked up between what you
did and what they're doing now? So that was a whole different
experience. I mean, we were down there in
(52:25):
Mexico, Mexico City at the Cherubusco studios for months
and there were, there were days I I that like nothing was being
happening. I've had script changes or, you
know, things that I wasn't all that Privy to.
But as one of the units, he's certainly affected by that.
But it was a great kind of the sets were amazing.
(52:48):
We had a great sort of international, not only cast but
crew, you know, we had people infrom France, from Germany, you
know, Mexico, of course, Spain. Italy.
And we're all thrown together down there.
Do do do do you mind describing more of the set design and maybe
(53:08):
what parts of the script you weren't Privy to?
But I wasn't Privy to well, I mean, that's a lengthy film.
There was, you know, I mean the the set design it, you know, is
very steampunk. Isn't that the kind of term that
I think got? I mean, it was, they were
cavernous, the sets and we used,we used I think almost all the
(53:32):
stages that Cherubusco, I mean building those sets, the thing,
the thing that was you could getlost on some of those sets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The way they would wind around
and, and it technically it was areal challenge with the all the,
all the effects and stuff that had to move.
But it was my my main memory of doing that.
(53:54):
That film is is not only all of the all of that international
people, but just the the sort ofon and off again production.
You know, it wasn't, it wasn't. It wasn't the most seamlessly
run set. No.
Can you tell me more about that?Well, I, I don't again, I'm, I
(54:14):
wasn't, you know, I wasn't up inthe script department or talking
with David about what he wanted to do, you know, and could they
afford it? So what would delay production
or push it ahead? I didn't.
Have you seen the the the current Dune films?
Do you have any? So the first one.
What are your thoughts about that and and maybe how it?
(54:37):
It's a really good film. I, I think it's probably a
little more intelligible than what we did, I mean.
Is that because of the like the advanced technology or?
Well, no, I think just I mean, yeah, maybe to a certain, but
mostly script. I think, you know, it was the
first Dune was really interesting to watch.
(55:00):
I I don't know that it it held an audience's attention as as
one might have helped. Oh.
Got it, Got it. What are you up to today, Greg?
I mean, what's what's, what's what's cooking for you currently
as as a cinematographer? Well, I have fingers crossed.
I've got a, a, a meeting coming up with a couple of showrunners
(55:25):
that I've worked with that possibly have, it's called a
greenlit script for I don't knowwhen we'd start.
It hasn't started yet. This is April, you know, maybe
come May, there's no real real sort of production schedule
anymore. And especially with, you know,
what streaming has done to to television.
(55:50):
How has it affected your work, the streaming world today?
Like what is I? I wonder for I, I know what it's
done for actors, but what it like for our director of
photography? Like what does that mean?
About the same. It's, you know, it's very, it's
very much more of a scramble. Things are much shorter.
You can't really settle in. I mean, you look at the family
Matters. How many years did that show
(56:13):
run? Nine years.
Nine years, you know, with it has its ups and downs and
problems and stuff, but it's it's something there's a
consistency there and you could develop, you know, character or
look to when you're doing. I mean I did a a series what was
(56:36):
6 episodes. I know the the seasons are
getting shorter I. Mean you're you're done shooting
before you even know where the bathroom is.
Oh wow. So yeah, it's become much more
of a scramble. It's interesting because at the
moment they'd asked me to come down and teach a production
class at USC, been doing. So here I am talking to, you
(56:58):
know, 20 somethings and they're just getting started, but the
world they're going into now compared to when I was that age
is so, so different. It's just so weird because like
you would think that with the billion options for content that
we have that there would be plenty of work for everybody.
(57:19):
But I think it's kind of goes back to what you said.
I mean, it may be a lot of content, but the seasons are
getting shorter and maybe there's just a a wider pool of
competition that you have to. I I think on one hand you could
probably count or refer to showsthat have a following that
(57:45):
people actually watch and discuss.
Yeah, there's only a small handful.
Yeah, yeah. I think it's one hand.
One hand. Yeah, just one hand.
You go back to the days, you know, even before I was really
to wear television, I mean, shows would you'd be doing a
(58:06):
whole lot more episodes following.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you could get, I mean,
family matters especially. I mean, like, what?
They were averaging like 20-30 million viewers an episode, so
yeah. Go back even further with the
likes of, you know, the Mary Tyler Moore or Bob Newhart or,
you know, but Sanford and Son orwhat they had people knew the
(58:28):
shows they would, they would watch them religiously.
That's not really the case anymore.
And it's very fragmented. On the one hand, the fact that,
you know, I'm glad that there are still shows that are being
shot in film because it teaches you a real discipline as opposed
to digital production where you could just keep the camera
(58:49):
running from now until the cows come home and who cares?
But that aside, I think the realplus thing with the digital sort
of revolution, if you want, has been the great democratization.
Oh yeah. The medium.
More people than ever can can make a film or ATV show.
(59:11):
You know you get, I mean. I could take this out of my
pocket. Yeah, the smartphone.
Yep. Make a film.
So that's the plus side. The negative side is it's just
I, I don't know that there's thediscipline in terms of story
development, production that youhad with film.
(59:33):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Because there used to be a time where there were fewer options.
So that means that, you know, you really have to be on your
game. It was a very selective process.
And so, yeah, there's a plus andA minus to to what's going on
today for for sure. That's life.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, How can we keep in touch
with you, Greg, if someone wantsto follow your work, do Do you
(59:55):
have a website? Do you have a social media that
you can direct us to? You know, I'm, I'm no, I don't
have, I had a website at one point.
I haven't really kept that kept that up and and I'm not much in
the way of social media. I mean, you know.
You're better off without it, trust me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I pay
(01:00:17):
attention to what I want to pay attention to.
You know, I actually have to go re install myself with IMDb
because they have a different tiers.
I think at one point my subscription lap.
So what they do then is your your important projects and
(01:00:39):
things. They just sort of dump them
anyway. So I have to fix that, reinstall
myself all. Right, well, we can't wait when
that happens. But in terms of I don't know,
you know, following is that it'sthe productions I guess I've
done that's what. Speaks for itself.
That's why I was there. Well, Greg, hash on man, thank
(01:01:01):
you so much. I mean, I'm so glad that you
gave me a, a nice, you know, perspective on your
cinematography experience. Obviously, you have a lot of
wonderful credits on on the resume that that we got to touch
on. It was my pleasure.
It was great meeting you. And you, you do, you do a damn
good job in terms of the interview.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
(01:01:22):
That means a lot coming from you.
Well, it's, it's informative, it's comfortable, it's, you
know, kind of exploratory, whichis great.
I love that. Wonderful.
All right, well, take care of yourself, Greg and and we'll and
we'll talk later. Thank you.
You got it, you as well. So I will say Arrivederci.
Arrivederci. All right.
Thanks, Greg. Take care.
(01:01:44):
Bye. Bye.
All right, Greg Heshon. What a guy.
What a guy. I would usually want to.
Direct you to. The website or social media to
follow him, but he doesn't have either of those.
So yeah, just, you know, do an Internet search.
You can find his IMDb. A lot of those credits are still
valid. They're still there despite what
(01:02:05):
Greg has said about, you know, them dumping important projects.
So, you know, you get a nice perspective of Gregg work
through that IMDb. Heshong is about HESCHONG and
Greg is spelled with 2G's at theend if you want to look them up
online. And for those of you, you know,
listening, watching the delicious recap wherever you get
(01:02:25):
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We're available wherever you getyour podcasts, Apple, Spotify,
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(01:02:47):
Just search the delicious recap.You'll find a fabulous photo of
Steve Urkel, Cream Savers, the cast of Living Single, the cast
of Fresh Prince. That'll be us.
That colorful photo that my Co host Andrew designs.
And Speaking of Andrew, he wouldbe the one to usually say our
ending slogan. So I will say it.
He usually says it in a much more fun, creative way.
(01:03:08):
So I will just get straight to the point and say let's
deliciousness ring.
I appreciate you spending time with us.
So usually it's me and my Co host Andrew.
He wasn't able to join us because of a scheduling
conflict, but for the past couple years we've been
recapping one of our favorite childhood television shows,
Family Matters, and we were looking through the list of
credits and found that, you know, you were listed as a
(00:27):
director of photography for 168 episodes between seasons 2
through 8. I know you directed 3 episodes,
so naturally. Three.
It might have been four, I'm notsure.
OK I mean IMDb has three but I know from talking to Co creator
William Beckley that IMDb may not give the complete picture.
(00:47):
So your your your guess is probably better.
Great, you've been able to contact all these people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. William Bickley, Director, Rich
Corral, writer, producer. Gary Goodrich.
I mean, we've had a lot of greatpeople come on and talk, and
we're glad to add you to the list.
So first question for someone listening and watching who may
(01:08):
not know what a director of photography does, do you mind
explaining that? I don't lied a director of
photography, DP or cinematographer.
It depends, you know, on what what part of the world you're
you're you're in. But here in the States, we're
known primarily as a director ofphotography.
(01:29):
So I am, I am the one who is responsible for how the show
looks and how it's photographed,how it, you know from from these
first initial script meetings inall the way through post, but
primarily on set. So I'm there every day with with
(01:52):
rehearsals and finding how the show is going to be lit.
What we're doing with what are called swing sets.
I mean, as you know, with familymatters, as with a number of
other, there are kind of what are known as permanent sets.
Like the living room? Like the living room?
Like the kitchen? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, the Winslow house. So those get set a certain way
(02:15):
and then I will adjust accordingly to from episode to
episode depending on what you know, what our actions going to
be, what time of day it is, whatwe had a lot of stunts with
family matters, as you know. So that was always that required
a lot of a lot of attention. And then with each episode,
(02:38):
generally there would be what are called swing sets, some very
simple if if you know, the show were really elaborate.
I mean, I did think we did things from having a frozen lake
on stage to airplanes to boats to, you know, snow anyway.
Yeah, and Speaking of Frozen Lake, I, I, I'm automatically
(03:04):
thinking of the Season 2 episodethat we recap not too long ago,
Ice Station Winslow, where Carl essentially forces his son Eddie
to go ice fishing with him to spend some quality time.
Was was that an actual frozen lake?
Was all on stage. That was all on stage.
Yes, I would, yeah. I remember talking to Michael
Andrew about how it very much looked like it was a set built
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on a sound stage as opposed to, like, I don't know, somewhere on
Lake Placid is. When you make those kind of
decisions, is that more so because of financial reasons or
because you just think that you could make a great set on a
stage? Well, right off the bat, yes, we
could do some great sets and we did.
Lynn Griffin, who we unfortunately just lost
(03:50):
recently, was the production designer I think through most of
almost all of the series. And yeah, we we would plan and,
you know, do what we needed to do to make it as realistic as
possible. So it was it was the show was a
(04:11):
a a challenge every week, but a lot of fun.
How so Can you? Can you describe how it was a
challenge? Well, just like what we're
talking about you bring now remember that.
So these family matters like many other situation companies
hopefully are all done in front of an audience.
So this is all live in front of an audience every scene.
(04:34):
So that requires a great deal ofplanning in order to how do you
fit like the, the the frozen lake set you're referencing or I
just did onto the stage and makeit work seamlessly from
beginning to end because we would shoot in sequence, not
like you would do in a, you know, feature film or some
(04:56):
single camera. So, so we can shoot out of
order. We Family Matters was presented
like a play from the beginning to the end in sequence.
So when Carl drowns in that frozen lake and Eddie eventually
saves him, like is Reginald Val Johnson literally like drowning
(05:16):
in a in a lake that's making himreally chilly?
Or is it just like warm water and we're.
We had a tank in there under theend of the whole set was built
on an elevation so we could do this.
Now I can't quite remember there.
Sometimes we would do some sequences as a pre shoot part of
it just in order to be able to pull off some certain effects
(05:40):
that wouldn't be as. Now by appreciate do you mean
like shooting it without the audience presents?
Yeah, OK. Like like the day before.
Yeah, yeah. Can you do?
Do you have a stunt in mind thatreally stands out to you where
you're like, Oh my God, like that is just, that was like a
very challenging or a very fun experience.
(06:02):
As a director of photography, any stunt for family matters
that that really stands out to your mind.
Well, I mean, we just mentioned one.
There was another another episode where we had had Carl
and Urkel in an airplane flying.Yeah.
So I was all done on stage. Well, that was, you know, a
(06:25):
complicated setup bringing in, you know, gimbal to articulate
this airplane and with the wind and clouds and all of that.
Wow. Cranes, you know how to mount
the cameras there. I mean, there were so many
different stunts. I mean, we, we crash cars, we
burned things down, you know? Yeah, You know what the the
(06:46):
crash course from Season 2 whereEddie crashes the car into the
living room. I mean, aside from the story
device of like, Oh my God. Like, what are the chances
someone's going to drive a car through a house and be sober?
But we were. Yeah.
Just also wondering about the logistics of that.
Like did. I mean, it was a real car and it
(07:07):
crashed through the set and I, Imean, wow, because do you guys
have to rebuild that set for thenext episode as if it's nothing,
right? So can you describe like what
went into that decision to crashthe set and then after rebuild
it? Again, yeah, we'd work with the
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the special effects thought we had.
So that car was all rigged so ithad a positive start and stop,
but that was all for safety reasons.
But yeah, this, the set had to be that wall had to be
dismantled and essentially rebuilt to be a breakaway so
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that it would safely break away,you know?
And I mean since you're producing.
The show, it's done, Yeah. You got to go back and rebuild
it. And, and I mean, the show is
produced week to week. So like, did you guys have to
take like a long hiatus to rebuild that set or was it just
kind of like you could do it? No, yeah, it was, it was the
thing with with especially showslike this is you've got to have
(08:13):
a great team behind you. But no, it's, it's all done
within the week. You know, we came back the next
week for the next episode. Wow, how?
How did you get the job on family matters in the 1st place?
How did you get connected with them?
As best I recall, I think, I think I don't know who first Bob
(08:36):
Boyett, who who is just a tremendous individual on it.
And you know, Shepherd had not this, not only this show, but
many others I've, I've worked for Bob over the over the years
on different, different, different projects, different
shows. I I don't know who first brought
me to his attention, but I was actually involved at the time
(08:58):
with working on a feature with Steven Spielberg called Hook.
Yeah, with Robin Williams, Yeah.Yeah.
And Julia Roberts and so I, I was doing one of the units that
there were many units because that was a very complicated
feature as well. And I remember taking, I had to
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work out a time between shootingfor Hook to come in and and talk
with with Bob. And I think Reg Corral was part
of that meeting too. So those are the first two
people I met and they they offered me, they wanted me to
come in, take over the show for what would be the second season.
(09:42):
And I was also coming in to shoot perfect strangers then
too. So I was actually 2.
Yeah, the predecessor to Family Matters.
So when you're going in to see like, you know, Rich Corral, Bob
Boyed of Miller Boyed Productions, which produce
Family Matters, do you come in with like a specific like visual
(10:04):
portfolio of your work, say somethings that you shot already
from? Back in those days, no.
I came in and it was wow. They wanted to meet me.
They knew my credits. They'd seen, you know, some of
what I'd done. It was kind of a meeting to see
how we got along that, what we felt about it and how interested
(10:26):
I was in joining them. You you joined family matters as
DP in season twos like, you know, fall of 1990.
Can you kind of list what you had already come with?
Just just some of your credits if you don't mind.
Like obviously to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean it doesn't have to be allof them, but maybe just some
that like. You know, it was a very time I
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actually, on the heels of joining family members that was
Hook. I'd actually done a little low
budget feature for Rodger Cormanbecause a friend of mine had
asked me to do that, which was all location up in the Sierras,
right. That film was called A Cry in
the Wild, but previously to thatI'd also done it was called
(11:14):
Second Unit on Who Frank Roger Rabbit.
Yes. I've done, I've done the first
multiple camera show that I I did was the Tracey Allman show.
Oh yeah, yeah, with which was when Fox became a network or
they were trying to be. This was one of their kind of
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shows they were launching with. And I believe The Simpsons
launched from that show because there was a little sketch that
they had that turned The Simpsons into a series
eventually. And.
That was a great cast. I mean that some Julie Kavner
and Don casting out. That was some great people.
Sam Murray. But what was I going to say?
So Tracy. So through that, I, I was
(12:00):
working with Jim Brooks, who hadstarted, you know, it pitched
that series. Tracy Uhlmann.
Yeah, Jim Brooks and so based onI also did worked on a film with
Jim Brooks called Broadcast News.
It's around that same time all kinds of runs together.
(12:23):
You had mentioned working as like the second unit director of
photography for Who Framed RogerRabbit, which is most known for
being able to blend humans and animated characters.
How does that make your job in that cinematic photographic
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world different as opposed to doing it just like
straightforward with live actionhumans when when you have to
blend humans and animation like that?
Yeah, a lot. Of planning.
Yeah, talk about it. Roger Rabbit was was really
unique at that time. I mean, yeah, in in the you
know, you go through Hollywood history and there have been
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instances of films combining animation with live action.
Like Gene Kelly did a famous dance number back in the day.
I forget the name of the film, but they're, you know, and
Disney had had experience with that.
I mean, I actually, previous to this had worked with on on the
first Tron, which was kind of similar live action and out of
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effects. But so to going back to Roger
Rabbit, we had a lot, a lot of planning because we were
shooting the live action parts to which the animation was then
added later, afterwards. Yeah.
So, you know, blocking and camera angles and how it's lit
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is was really important so that it would translate properly when
the animation is coming in. And there was a process that
that Bob Zemeckis and, and Richard Williams, who was the
director of animation, they worked out a, a really great way
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of, of kind of making the animation 3 dimensional with
shadows. So it was just a flat character.
Watch the film you and I'm very aware of, you know, how kind of
realistically a character like Jessica Rabbit fits into.
Yeah. And then we would work with
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cutouts of where let's say for example, Rodger would be.
So let's say if it's a scene, what it was a scene with Bob
Hoskins, he would know where to focus while we were shooting
alive. And he was.
I was really impressed with him to be able to act with an
invisible character and actuallyhis his focus was exactly where,
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let's say Roger would be right was a huge room.
He you know, and to maintain that through a scene was was a
pretty incredible. Wow.
Lot of fun. Yeah, and it ended up being a
very iconic film that's talked about this many years later.
Yes, it should, because it was terrific.
You directed a handful of episodes of Family Matters and
(15:22):
talk to me about that. Like what what that difference
is like compared to being a director of photography.
I mean, I would assume that you would prefer more of the
director of photography kind of work, but you know, when you the
times that you stepped into the director's chair, tell me what
that has. Because I wanted to.
(15:42):
I mean, I find that, you know, Istarted out way back in the
beginning of time in theatre. I was still a teenager.
I was, I worked in regional and summer stock theatre and did
everything and even did some acting.
(16:03):
My interest in film, you know, Iam very much kind of in favour
of it is it is a very cooperative effort and I love
having actors coming in that areinvolved.
Really want to contribute, make suggestions as I would hopefully
get from even crew members. There have been times where
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somebody has been attentive says, you know what if and try
that out and it's you know, it'sgreat what the difference.
I mean, I wanted to direct and Isince then done other shows like
News Radio and Becker directly. I, I, I find it really
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enjoyable. I mean, you get to not only and
as ADP, I'm well aware of what, what is possible and what isn't.
So in some respects that's a, that's a big, big help.
I'm kind of straddling, you know, that the the active acting
creative event and the and the whole technical and in terms of
(17:10):
producing the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I would assume that they're direct director of
photography. It's strictly from a visual
sense. And then when you're director,
you add on, you know, as, as youhad mentioned, you know, kind of
communicating with the actors, figuring out, you know, how to
say this line or how to, you know, choose this blocking, how
to, you know, things like that. And, and it seems like that was
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an enjoyable, that was an enjoyable addition for for you
once once you became director. Well, I'll give you 1 little
quick example. As a director, this is not
family matters. This was in a a show I did with
Ted Danson called Becker. Yeah, great show.
That was a lot that terrific cast too. 1 little example, the
the scene as written, we were inthe office, the Becker's
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doctor's office, and there was some bit of dialogue or
something going back and forth with Linda character about some
sort of planning, some sort of surprise for Becker, right?
And he, unbeknownst to her, he had come in and was standing
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right behind her. And while she's going on with
the the character's name is Margaret, about what they're
planning to do. And.
And she says, but you know, don't let him know.
And in the script there, there was a line and where Becker
announces himself right behind her to surprise her.
(18:40):
Well, so I'm directing that scene and it just, it just
occurred to me visually, what ifthere were no words he was
wearing like this little party hat thing to show off instead of
the line. What I had Ted do is just take
the little party hat thing, pullit up and let it snap on top of
her head. Well, she turned there.
(19:02):
So the whole, you know, it said so much more visually and it was
much more funny than a a line ofdialogue.
Yeah, as a director, that's someof the things you can.
And I would imagine the audiencereacted wonderfully to that.
And how did Ted, how did the actress react to that choice?
I thought. It was great.
I, I, Dave Hackel was the, I, I pitched it to, to Dave when we
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were doing a, a run through and I said, listen, here's what,
here's what we're going to do. Just take a look at it and see
what you think. Everybody laughed.
So that was that. I.
Love that. Speaking of shows like Becker
that you've worked on. So you know, you're talking
about, you know, being ADP on Becker with Ted Danson, New
Adventures of Old, Christine with Julia Louis Dreyfus and
(19:47):
Till Death with Brad Garrett. And right away I'm thinking
like, Oh my God, these are like 3 heavy hitter stars.
They've been on these iconic sitcoms prior, Everybody Loves
Raymond. Cheers.
Seinfeld and going into these next shows that they're doing
for you as ADP, does that add some sort of pressure to get it
(20:11):
right, get it perfect because you kind of want to meet the
standard of the stars, or is it just kind of a another job that
you know you want to excel at? I want to meet my standard.
I see. I see.
So that's a really. Yeah, I mean, I don't.
It's about, it's about the the script and performance, you
know, whether, you know, if you're, I don't care how famous
(20:35):
you are or what you've done before this right now, this is
what we're doing. And I think they're going to be
convincing and funny and or or not, it's not about, you know,
dragging along the credit list. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I know it's all explained in the visuals, but I
wonder if there's a way you could describe the the Greg
(20:57):
Heshan brand as it pertains to your director of photography.
Like how can somebody watch an episode where you have worked on
it and say and say to themselves, OK, yeah, what I'm
seeing here, that's a great piece of work compared to
whatever other DP might do. Like is there like a way to
describe it or is it just you got to see it to?
Believe I'll give you, I'll giveyou 1 little example on this,
(21:19):
this again. So one of the things that I've
worked now you take family matters.
Family matters was a challenge because every week you would
have a cast of mixed races. I've got all kinds of different
skin tones. How do I, how do I light for
each character? And they're moving around.
(21:42):
So it's, it's not like, you know, one set up another set.
This is constant. So I, I would experiment and I
actually came up with a, a specific package of filtration
for the lamps that was very complementary to each skin tone
and people could walk within it and it worked really well.
(22:06):
The other thing with my theatre background, bringing in certain
types of, of instruments that normally weren't used and motion
picture production to a certain degree, but for example, there's
a, a, it's called an ellipsoidallight, it's called a Leco.
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And if you go to a theater production, this is how theater
is lit. And I started bringing those
into the sets for a number of different reasons.
One was to reach characters eyesfrom even across the set, which
when you're working with four cameras is not that damn easy to
do because there's you've got 4 cameras all happening at once.
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So I can't just light you for one shot and then move on.
I've got to have the whole sceneseamlessly lit for the entire
run of the scene. So I would start you and
redeveloped a certain filtrationfor these Lycos too that would
you know, be able to selectivelypick out where a character was
standing for that moment. And given the technology kind of
(23:16):
evolving, be able to dim those lights in and out as needed.
So I, I would there was a lot I asked of, of the the electric
crew and the grip crew to put these shows together.
But it would going to Becker. There was a time when I remember
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Ted. So I would use this technique
also for other shows. And Becker, Ted, Ted came up to
me one day and he said, you know, this is the first show
I've ever been able to see my eyes.
Wow, really. Like even like.
Cheers. The yeah, well, go back and look
and you'll you'll there is yeah,there there would because
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everything in in the multiple camera format has to be from
above primarily. You can't put anything obviously
in the set like you would do in single camera.
So all everything has to be fromabove or from the front, from
back. But it's out, you know, it's out
(24:19):
of sight. So these were ways I was working
to be able to reach through a set and light it a little bit
more like you would in a single camera show from setup to setup
to setup. So yeah, Ted, Ted was watching.
He said, you know, and if you, if you know, Cheers is a great
(24:40):
show with a tremendous case. But if you do look at it, you'll
notice that people kind of have what you call raccoon eyes.
There's the lights all coming from above and it gets their
eyes get dark. Yeah.
Now that I think about it, yeah,yeah, yeah.
There's a difference, yeah. Now that I think about cheers, I
mean, there, there does seem to be sort of this like, I don't
know, this, this dimness to the,the, the, the bar lighting, sort
(25:06):
of like it's, you know, that light that you shine on somebody
if you're giving them a detective interrogation, but you
turn down the lighting just a little bit.
Well, I mean it, it was the process they use now.
This goes back quite a ways. This is all film now, right?
Even family matters. We were shooting on on film, as
I recall what I'd heard from Burroughs when I was working
(25:32):
with Cheers. They wanted to try they would so
the camera shoots color negative.
But what they did was then make and if I'm I may be wrong, but I
think I'm recalling this correctly.
What they did was then make a positive print and that's what
they transferred, which would beinherently more contrasting.
(25:55):
It wasn't, you know, but it's not my understanding that was a
conscious choice on their. Part now talking about
filtration and making sure that people's skin tones look great.
I'm, I'm just going to give an example for family matters like
you, you take the the teacher, Miss Steuben from season 2,
who's white, and then you take Julia White as Steve Urkel,
(26:17):
who's black, and then you put them in a scene together.
Can you just give me an example as to how you make their skin
tones look equally appealing andyou know?
A there's the level of like the amount of illumination.
So I, I could plan and adjust that accordingly.
(26:37):
So let's say for Jaleel, he might be standing wherever he's
standing and I might increase the the luminance just slightly
and and then where who were you referencing, miss?
Tubin, Miss Tubin, the the teacher who is sick and tired of
hercal. Right.
So I might, I might reduce the amount of light there.
(26:58):
But the other thing would be in terms of the filtration from the
lamps there. I forget the name of the
specific gel that I finally adopted that would work
terrifically for not for both skin tones, for black skin
tones, for white skin tones. And in between 2:00 and then I
(27:21):
would be able to, when the show is transferred in post, either
increase or decrease that amount.
So for like Jaleel, he would have the full effect of this.
It sort of would warm the skin tone a little bit pleasing, but
I could for a character, a very white character, I could reduce
that slightly in post. Gotcha, gotcha.
(27:46):
It would look seamless. Yeah, this is great information
that you're telling me. I never because I just kind of
figured like, all right, you know, you somehow.
Exactly. You do the best you can with
what you got. But I didn't think about like,
you know, say you had a show with all white people or all
Asian people. That's probably going to be a
lot more easier for ADP to handle because everybody's kind
(28:06):
of consistent as opposed to a more diverse or like family
matters where it's like, Oh my God, like I got to make sure
that this white person looks good in the light or this Asian
person looks good in the in the camera.
So yeah, this is great information.
And thankfully, we've moved intoa time where these days most
casts are diverse. You know, it's not just it's not
(28:28):
just a bunch of white people on on a set, unless it's a period
piece or, you know, or if you were doing, you know, solely
black film. I mean, you know, none too.
Can you talk about some of the commercial DP work that you've
done? I mean, you've, you've done
commercials for 7-11 McDonald's.You know what?
(28:51):
What? What about that stands out to
you as opposed to doing like ATVshow or film?
Commercials are a whole nother KMA a they really pay well.
Yeah, like. Can.
You disclose how much? Well, I mean these a lot have to
generally, I mean then doing an episodic series, but and they're
(29:17):
they're finite. You know, there's a but one of I
remember doing this back in the day I worked with, I guess what
would be best called a special effects house production
company. It was called Robert Abel and
Associates. Now this we're really going back
(29:38):
in time here. This is late 70s and I'm just a
punk kid pretty much. But they wanted me, they hired
me, I'm there and I got to do all kinds of things here.
I actually built miniatures thatI would then photograph.
But there was one series of sponsor remembered doing, I
(30:00):
think it was for Chevrolet, and we had setups in, in, in, on
stage and studio. But I, they want I, they
actually sent me to New York to go do aerials.
For those. Aerial shots, you know, from a
plane or a helicopter or. Something okay, okay.
And I did a whole series I wish I I don't think I have a copy of
(30:22):
that I wish I did of that were insert concerted within the
commercial of these areas of NewYork.
I remember once flying and like doing a whole circle a number of
times around the Chrysler building at night, hanging out
the side of a helicopter. Oh my God.
This building, I mean, it was, you know, you got to be young
and and kind of. And not afraid of heights.
(30:45):
Not. Afraid of heights, yeah, but the
shots were absolutely fantastic.I did them at an altered frame
rate. So it it would it kind of
stuttered. It worked really well within
that commercial. And there were, there were
others in terms of commercials, you know, I remember doing a
whole series for United Airlinesand you're, they were once on on
(31:09):
this is at LAX actually, and doing some take off shots.
You know, I think what there wasn't only just 740 sevens, but
taking off. So I, I was, and the people that
were with me on on the end of the runway.
So The Jets, you know, come off the taxiway and line up on the
(31:30):
runway to take off. So I'm behind, behind the plane.
And we've done a number of shots, you know, of watching the
planes lift off. This one pilot must have come
around and seen us in hand to God.
He, he got the clearance for take off.
He must have gunned those engines.
He blew everything away. Oh no.
(31:52):
Back to the to the backstop where they, you know, Oh no,
everything that was loose was was gone you.
Didn't know you guys were shooting what you didn't know
you guys were. Shooting.
My guess is he knew we were shooting.
Oh, and he decided to just, I mean, there was, there was no
reason for that, but I whatever.I mean, it was.
(32:13):
It's all on film. Oh, OK, my God, all that.
Stuff that was a surreal experience, yeah.
I bet. So I guess the question for in
terms of like doing commercials,since they could be fun,
adventurous like you had described and they also pay very
well, why not just do DP for commercials?
Is it just because like, you know, there's not as much work
(32:35):
for that and you have to kind oflike vary it up or do you like
more of a challenge with TV and film?
Like why? I like telling stories.
Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, that's really
why I, I, you know, gravitated toward this, you know, not only
as a cinematographer, but also as a director.
I mean, commercials are fun, butand, and you're kind of telling
(32:56):
a little tiny story, but there'sno, there's no real arc to it.
You're not, you know, developingcharacter week after week.
And that's, that's what's great about, you know, feature films
and episodic television. And I like telling stories.
So there you go. IMDb said you had an
unaccredited camera operator experience on a Family Matters
episode, I think before you had officially been hired as their
(33:18):
DP. That starting out in the earlier
days as a camera operator, did that kind of plant the seeds for
your interests to take it up to the next level with director of
photography? Because there's a visual
component that seems to be in common between camera operating
and director of photography. Well, yeah, there's composition.
Exactly. Was did that lead me to?
(33:39):
No, you're talking to somebody. I was, you know, I, I, I did the
theater. I, I started, I went through the
UCLA film department. Luckily I made it through the
1st 2 years. They were probably ready to get
rid of me those first two years because the only reason I was
there was to start working in film.
And you know, the first two years of undergraduate colleges,
(34:02):
all general education and I I was so rich.
I think they were ready to bounce me out once I got into
the film department and was actually producing it.
Now my interest has always been in in in no shooting, but
directing. And so camera operating.
I got why was I doing that? Because I referenced that that
(34:24):
one, excuse me, firm. I was working with Robert Abel
and associates. There is there is something you
know the difference Union, non union right at this point in
time, Abel and associates was a non union house and and
honestly, I'm so old at this point.
I can remember the time when youcouldn't get in the union unless
(34:46):
you knew somebody. Oh yeah, really?
And it was, it was like a real close, I, I actually was part of
a class action suit against the camera Guild at one point
because of, you know, but Long story short, so working with
Abel, they actually became a signatory because of some of the
(35:07):
work they were doing. Here was my entry, because they
were becoming a signatory, I wasnow eligible to join the union,
which I did. And I had a choice back then of
either going into the union as astill photographer, which I've
done a lot of still photography,or as a camera operator.
And I'm sorry, what is the unioncalled that represents these?
(35:31):
It's called the International Cinematographers Guild, or Local
Local 600. It's part of the Olayatzi Yeah
union organization, which coversevery craft you can think of.
You pet it. And and you can only get
professional work joining the union Or is there a way to break
(35:52):
in non union? Is there what?
Is there a way to break in and say do TV and film doing like
being a non union member or can you only be in the union?
These days that's work. It's much easier.
You can actually build up so many hours and apply and you you
become a union. Member, but back then you had to
know like a cousin. Yeah, back then it was still so
(36:14):
old Hollywood. Yeah, that if you didn't know
somebody, forget it. You there was.
So anyway, they they became. So I had a choice and I decided,
you know, I'm going to still photography really is great and
I love it, but I'm going to go in as a camera operator.
Of course, nobody knew me. So I starved for a couple of
(36:36):
years because, you know, nobody knew me.
But you gradually build up credits and contacts over the
years. What would you say?
What would you say was your first big break into the the
work that you wanted to be doing?
As a camera operator. Not as a camera operator, no.
I mean it as. Like one thing leads to another.
(36:56):
For example, I, I as a camera operator, I could see I.
So there was I I got, I had the opportunity to work with Sven
Nakis, who was Ingmar Bergman's cinematographer, done all those
great films. Amar Amar Bergman.
His, his cinematographer's name was Sven Nagfist.
(37:20):
I see, I see. So Sven, you know, anyway, Sven
came to the States and was doingsome American productions that
point. So I, I actually, you know, just
by some of the other work I've done with people I know, it got
to work. I was hired by Sven to do.
I did a film with him called Cannery Row as a camera
operator, which was fantastic. Another film, well with Bob
(37:46):
Fosse called *80. So I was a camera operator on
that too, which was a really unique experience.
Did you do any camera operating on the Carol Burnett Show?
This Mothers Brothers Comedy Hour?
I know. You.
I'm a young. No, I was, I was actually what
Carol Burnett show. I was actually what's called a
(38:10):
page back then, OK, I worked at,you know, I was still in college
and this was my, you know, kind of part time job.
I landed. So I would, I was backstage, you
know, page for the likes of The Smothers Brothers Show and Carol
Burnett, where you, you know, did whatever somebody wanted you
to do. What did you do?
Like what were the responsibilities they gave you?
(38:30):
Run errands. You did handle audience coming
in, you know, Yeah. It just kind of, you know, make
sure somebody was in the right place and whatever you were
directed to do. So a a version of like a show
business internship where you know you're.
Yeah, exactly. But you know, I, I've met, met a
whole lot of great people then too.
I mean, you know, Steve Martin was a writer on The Smothers.
(38:55):
Yes, he was. I also, you know, was able to.
I remember having one really interesting day when Joan Baez
came on the Smothers show, and this is back when the draft was
still a really happening deal and I was just the proper age
4/2 and I so we did. Vietnam War draft, Yeah.
(39:18):
Yeah, for Vietnam. So John had come on this episode
and I had introduced myself. And then it was how the how I
ended up doing this, I can't quite remember.
But the show, that episode was over and I spent about two hours
after the show, what's what was called the artist entrance with
(39:41):
Joan Baez and Tom Smothers discussing world events, the war
in Vietnam, what all was happening.
It was, yeah, I think I was probably, what was I then, 19 or
something. Yeah, yeah.
And I bet that was a discussion filled with what?
Anxiety, Frustration. Curiosity.
Yeah, not only in my part, but theirs as well.
(40:03):
Yeah. Is there any?
Did you gain any cinematography education of sorts by observing
what was happening with The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour
and The Carol Burnett Show? And like, were you picking up on
what the DP did this day or whatthe camera operator did that day
and that kind of like stayed with you as you got it?
Professionally, it was a different medium because those
(40:25):
shows were all videotaped. They weren't film.
So there's, you know, videotape in those days had different,
different requirements. But yeah, was I paying
attention? Yes, I was.
And how how the shows were put together.
And I actually, I can still remember there was, there was a
(40:46):
show that I'd come back from doing a feature and I was asked
to come and shoot a, it was a, it was like a, it was no
audience, but it was kind of a little multi kind of single
camera show, a show called Open House.
And actually, Ellen DeGeneres, that was her first job.
Wow. OK, that's where.
(41:07):
I first met Ellen. Yeah.
Nice. That's an aside.
Anyway, the point was this was avideotaped show, and which meant
you had I I was lighting the show.
But off the set is something called the truck where all the
technicians are, the video controllers and all that.
I remember this one guy telling me you've got to make it
(41:30):
brighter, you know, and flatter.And I said, that's not what I'm
doing here. That's not right, right.
You know, there was that was kind of like this old school
attitude of how things had to be.
It was like, it's like the old trope is that comedy has to be
bright. Not necessarily, no.
No, not no, not necessarily. It's true, but trust me there
(41:52):
that you ran into that a lot of long times.
Comedy has to be bright. No it doesn't.
Can you give me an example of a comedy that you worked on where
you you darkened it? Yeah.
I mean, look at look at like thethe Becker series, it's got a
kind of much more Moody, darker feeling to it.
(42:13):
Did Family Matters ever have that moment, or were you always
told to? Keep it up.
There were episodes where I, youknow, yes, went went a little
bit more that direction. No, there was an episode, I
forget exactly what the storyline was, where Laura was
having some big issue when we had some really nice quiet
moments with Laura and and mom and and it was at night and I
(42:37):
made it very much more we're. Talking like, like a back porch
moment like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laura and Harriet having a talk.OK.
Yeah, it was. It was Harry and Laura.
Anyway, I I remember making thatkind of darker, more Moody.
It felt right. Yeah, I think I know what you're
talking about. Yeah.
I mean, I just off the top of head, I know Laura and Harriet
(42:58):
have had intimate back porch conversations about a period
telling Laura to go easy on Steve Urkel because it's nice
to, you know, have a guy who likes you.
And Harriet was kind of commenting on how she wasn't get
paid attention to as much by herhusband Carl Winslow, moments
like that. We would also sometimes have
(43:20):
it's night scenes and some episodes where I I would bring
the house down and make it. Yeah.
Oh, like when when Rachel and Harriet were trying to figure
out what to do about their father, who came back to their
life for the first time in many years.
So that that's an example of very dramatic dark back porch
(43:41):
moment where you kind of broughtthe house down.
Yeah, yeah, I love. That I mean, again, it's IO.
I've always felt every script, every episode dictates the mood
and I I'm there to visually interpret that mood.
I love that. Well, Speaking of outdoor
scenes, what I was impressed by and thank you for sending me the
the the link to this You did. You were director of photography
(44:05):
for 10 episodes of the of the series Abby's.
Yeah. Usually when multicam sitcoms
shoot outdoors, it's like they're shooting a film.
There's no audience present. It's just something that the
audience has to see, like afterwards on, I don't know, a
TV screen in the sound stage studio.
But you actually filmed outdoor scenes with the studio audience
(44:30):
actually present at the outdoor.I'll tell you, that experience
was so much fun. Yeah.
Can you talk more about it? Like what?
What like you guys to create that innovative?
Moment the original pitch when Icame in to talk with Josh
Monmouth who created was that hewanted to do this half hour
comedy outdoors was the the the the conceit of the show was
(44:54):
Abby, you know IA a veteran was kind of running this you know
neighborhood bar outside and back of her house.
The neighborhood characters would come and you know hang
around kind of chairs like but he wanted to do it outdoors.
(45:17):
So that's why we started. We actually, we found this was
on the Universal back lot. It was up on top of a hill in
the back lot of Universal. There was an old some kind of
structure existing that fed power to something, right?
So the production designer, actually, she built around that,
(45:42):
creating the house and the outdoor bar.
And we brought in Bleacher seatsfor the audience and I built a
camera aisle just like you, you do would do on stage.
But the real challenge was there's nothing above you.
And remember. Yeah.
(46:03):
With multiple camera everything has to come above so.
Yeah, all the lighting and everything is above, in, in, in
the interior. So there's where I pulled from
all of my experience in, you know, kind of experimenting on
family matters and perfect strangers and Becker and all
that in terms of how to light across an open area.
(46:25):
So I with production design, we,we put things in there where I
could hide some of those theatrical lights and the set
dresser. We went through all kinds of
pulling stuff out of the head ofpractical lights or things that
hang in the set that would help serve really illuminating
(46:49):
certain areas. So it became, it became a kind
of interdepartmental challenge, bringing, bringing this
together. And it was, it was so much fun,
you know, and we'd shoot at night.
You know, and I would imagine ifI were DP on that show where
we're filming outdoors with an audience present outdoors, like
(47:10):
I'm, I'm automatically worried about something that's out of my
control, like say the weather, like how was how was that?
Well, if it rained, it would rain, wouldn't it?
I mean. Would you guys shoot around that
or? Well, we in the run that we had,
I only remember one one night that it started becoming kind of
damp, but it didn't actually rain.
(47:31):
But we had we had a whole, a whole duplicate set down on the
lot on stage. Just in case.
Yeah, but we actually, so that was actually used for rehearsal.
So we'd rehearse on that, you know, copy set.
And then on the day that you'd start camera blocking, we moved
(47:52):
up the hill to the actual outdoor set with cameras and
everybody to, you know, block, rehearse the show, and then the
next day shoot it. How did the audience take to
being outdoors and witnessing this show?
Did you have anybody that was like fishing for their jacket?
Well, yeah, but it's quite the adventure.
You know, by the end, we were, we were.
I mean, it had really there, there were like little space
(48:15):
heaters above that. There was a covering over the
audience at this point. It, it was, you know what it
was, it was like going to the Hollywood Bowl.
Yeah, yeah. It's what it was like.
Do you think that could have been sustained beyond the 10
episode run? Do you think that could have?
Been sure. I thought the show had a lot of
promise. Why NBC decided to pull the plug
(48:35):
on it, it's beyond me. Right?
There you go. Yeah, I saw that you were a
director of photography on 70 episodes of the sitcom News
Radio. And any memories that pop out
from working on that show, you know, working with the late,
great Phil Hartman, Joe Rogan, who is now, of course, you know,
the biggest podcaster in the world right now.
(48:56):
Yeah, but hey, that was a tremendous cast, Phil.
I mean, you know, Joe was much younger than Maura Tierney, you
know, Dave Foley, Andy Dick. It it was as an ensemble cast.
You talk about being inventive, you know, or improvising.
(49:17):
That went on every damn week. Does that make your job more
fun? More challenging?
Both. OK.
It's a, it's a, it's a, It's a conflicting thing, yeah.
I mean, it was, it was just the energy on that show was was
tremendous because it it was kind of you kind of never knew
from day-to-day what was kind ofhappened.
Yeah. But there's this kind of a,
(49:39):
there's kind of a great discovery when you embrace that,
that you know and say, this is, this is how we do it and this is
who we are. So I, I, I had a great time with
that show. I was fortunate to be able to
direct some of those episodes too is.
There something like is there like a visual example they can
(50:00):
think of from News Radio that kind of warms your heart and in
terms of your DP work? Look at the last episode.
Oh wow, I think the last episodethat you.
I mean, at least IMDb said that you left after season 4, which
was before the the Philip Hartman tribute episode in
season 5. But you but you worked in the on
(50:20):
the very last episode of News Radio is what you're.
Saying no the that season which was the Titanic episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Titanic parody.
Yeah. That's where The Newsroom
becomes the Titanic. Oh wow, OK.
Can you talk more about that or is that?
Something it was how much fun was that?
I mean, it was redressing the whole the whole thing to make it
like a ship. Wow.
(50:41):
And you know, it it everybody, Stephen Root had a great
character. I mean, Phil was they kind of,
you know, who was, who was the Foley was the captain Maura
Tierney had kind of the, the, the part of the girl.
(51:02):
You know, anyway, it was, you know, we just, we just went to
town on that, that thing. But, you know, outside the
windows of The Newsroom, it looked like you were at sea.
Yeah, I remember turning. One of the script points was Joe
Rogan's character was like the engineer or something fire
(51:22):
keeping the boilers running and the whole the whole News Radio
bathroom turned into the engine room with a glowing fire and we
had water, you know, one point the elevator doors have to close
because it's flooding. It's like.
Oh my God. And that.
And that was like, what was that?
(51:43):
Not too long after the actual movie, Titanic came out.
Yeah, yeah, well, sure. When did Titanic come out?
97 I believe. Yeah, so it was a little bit
after. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we were referencing a lot of it.
So I mean, that was, I mean as astand out kind of really funny
the episode to do, I would pick that.
(52:03):
I love that. And I think you were second unit
director of photography for the 1984 film version of Dune, is
that correct? Yeah, I worked.
I worked on on Dune. Can you, can you talk about that
and, and maybe comparison that you picked up between what you
did and what they're doing now? So that was a whole different
experience. I mean, we were down there in
(52:25):
Mexico, Mexico City at the Cherubusco studios for months
and there were, there were days I I that like nothing was being
happening. I've had script changes or, you
know, things that I wasn't all that Privy to.
But as one of the units, he's certainly affected by that.
But it was a great kind of the sets were amazing.
(52:48):
We had a great sort of international, not only cast but
crew, you know, we had people infrom France, from Germany, you
know, Mexico, of course, Spain. Italy.
And we're all thrown together down there.
Do do do do you mind describing more of the set design and maybe
(53:08):
what parts of the script you weren't Privy to?
But I wasn't Privy to well, I mean, that's a lengthy film.
There was, you know, I mean the the set design it, you know, is
very steampunk. Isn't that the kind of term that
I think got? I mean, it was, they were
cavernous, the sets and we used,we used I think almost all the
(53:32):
stages that Cherubusco, I mean building those sets, the thing,
the thing that was you could getlost on some of those sets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The way they would wind around
and, and it technically it was areal challenge with the all the,
all the effects and stuff that had to move.
But it was my my main memory of doing that.
(53:54):
That film is is not only all of the all of that international
people, but just the the sort ofon and off again production.
You know, it wasn't, it wasn't. It wasn't the most seamlessly
run set. No.
Can you tell me more about that?Well, I, I don't again, I'm, I
(54:14):
wasn't, you know, I wasn't up inthe script department or talking
with David about what he wanted to do, you know, and could they
afford it? So what would delay production
or push it ahead? I didn't.
Have you seen the the the current Dune films?
Do you have any? So the first one.
What are your thoughts about that and and maybe how it?
(54:37):
It's a really good film. I, I think it's probably a
little more intelligible than what we did, I mean.
Is that because of the like the advanced technology or?
Well, no, I think just I mean, yeah, maybe to a certain, but
mostly script. I think, you know, it was the
first Dune was really interesting to watch.
(55:00):
I I don't know that it it held an audience's attention as as
one might have helped. Oh.
Got it, Got it. What are you up to today, Greg?
I mean, what's what's, what's what's cooking for you currently
as as a cinematographer? Well, I have fingers crossed.
I've got a, a, a meeting coming up with a couple of showrunners
(55:25):
that I've worked with that possibly have, it's called a
greenlit script for I don't knowwhen we'd start.
It hasn't started yet. This is April, you know, maybe
come May, there's no real real sort of production schedule
anymore. And especially with, you know,
what streaming has done to to television.
(55:50):
How has it affected your work, the streaming world today?
Like what is I? I wonder for I, I know what it's
done for actors, but what it like for our director of
photography? Like what does that mean?
About the same. It's, you know, it's very, it's
very much more of a scramble. Things are much shorter.
You can't really settle in. I mean, you look at the family
Matters. How many years did that show
(56:13):
run? Nine years.
Nine years, you know, with it has its ups and downs and
problems and stuff, but it's it's something there's a
consistency there and you could develop, you know, character or
look to when you're doing. I mean I did a a series what was
(56:36):
6 episodes. I know the the seasons are
getting shorter I. Mean you're you're done shooting
before you even know where the bathroom is.
Oh wow. So yeah, it's become much more
of a scramble. It's interesting because at the
moment they'd asked me to come down and teach a production
class at USC, been doing. So here I am talking to, you
(56:58):
know, 20 somethings and they're just getting started, but the
world they're going into now compared to when I was that age
is so, so different. It's just so weird because like
you would think that with the billion options for content that
we have that there would be plenty of work for everybody.
(57:19):
But I think it's kind of goes back to what you said.
I mean, it may be a lot of content, but the seasons are
getting shorter and maybe there's just a a wider pool of
competition that you have to. I I think on one hand you could
probably count or refer to showsthat have a following that
(57:45):
people actually watch and discuss.
Yeah, there's only a small handful.
Yeah, yeah. I think it's one hand.
One hand. Yeah, just one hand.
You go back to the days, you know, even before I was really
to wear television, I mean, shows would you'd be doing a
(58:06):
whole lot more episodes following.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you could get, I mean,
family matters especially. I mean, like, what?
They were averaging like 20-30 million viewers an episode, so
yeah. Go back even further with the
likes of, you know, the Mary Tyler Moore or Bob Newhart or,
you know, but Sanford and Son orwhat they had people knew the
(58:28):
shows they would, they would watch them religiously.
That's not really the case anymore.
And it's very fragmented. On the one hand, the fact that,
you know, I'm glad that there are still shows that are being
shot in film because it teaches you a real discipline as opposed
to digital production where you could just keep the camera
(58:49):
running from now until the cows come home and who cares?
But that aside, I think the realplus thing with the digital sort
of revolution, if you want, has been the great democratization.
Oh yeah. The medium.
More people than ever can can make a film or ATV show.
(59:11):
You know you get, I mean. I could take this out of my
pocket. Yeah, the smartphone.
Yep. Make a film.
So that's the plus side. The negative side is it's just
I, I don't know that there's thediscipline in terms of story
development, production that youhad with film.
(59:33):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Because there used to be a time where there were fewer options.
So that means that, you know, you really have to be on your
game. It was a very selective process.
And so, yeah, there's a plus andA minus to to what's going on
today for for sure. That's life.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, How can we keep in touch
with you, Greg, if someone wantsto follow your work, do Do you
(59:55):
have a website? Do you have a social media that
you can direct us to? You know, I'm, I'm no, I don't
have, I had a website at one point.
I haven't really kept that kept that up and and I'm not much in
the way of social media. I mean, you know.
You're better off without it, trust me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I pay
(01:00:17):
attention to what I want to pay attention to.
You know, I actually have to go re install myself with IMDb
because they have a different tiers.
I think at one point my subscription lap.
So what they do then is your your important projects and
(01:00:39):
things. They just sort of dump them
anyway. So I have to fix that, reinstall
myself all. Right, well, we can't wait when
that happens. But in terms of I don't know,
you know, following is that it'sthe productions I guess I've
done that's what. Speaks for itself.
That's why I was there. Well, Greg, hash on man, thank
(01:01:01):
you so much. I mean, I'm so glad that you
gave me a, a nice, you know, perspective on your
cinematography experience. Obviously, you have a lot of
wonderful credits on on the resume that that we got to touch
on. It was my pleasure.
It was great meeting you. And you, you do, you do a damn
good job in terms of the interview.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
(01:01:22):
That means a lot coming from you.
Well, it's, it's informative, it's comfortable, it's, you
know, kind of exploratory, whichis great.
I love that. Wonderful.
All right, well, take care of yourself, Greg and and we'll and
we'll talk later. Thank you.
You got it, you as well. So I will say Arrivederci.
Arrivederci. All right.
Thanks, Greg. Take care.
(01:01:44):
Bye. Bye.
All right, Greg Heshon. What a guy.
What a guy. I would usually want to.
Direct you to. The website or social media to
follow him, but he doesn't have either of those.
So yeah, just, you know, do an Internet search.
You can find his IMDb. A lot of those credits are still
valid. They're still there despite what
(01:02:05):
Greg has said about, you know, them dumping important projects.
So, you know, you get a nice perspective of Gregg work
through that IMDb. Heshong is about HESCHONG and
Greg is spelled with 2G's at theend if you want to look them up
online. And for those of you, you know,
listening, watching the delicious recap wherever you get
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first time, please continue to do so.
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(01:02:47):
Just search the delicious recap.You'll find a fabulous photo of
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.