The Birdcage | No More Late Fees

We're hard at work behind the scenes on Family Matters Season 3 recaps! We can't wait to return in the fall!

In the meantime, in case you missed it, our friends Jackie and Danielle from the No More Late Fees podcast were kind enough to have Jon Francois and Ajay Vandertunt on to discuss the iconic 1996 comedy film The Birdcage.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Before RuPaul's Drag Race, therewas One South Beach club that
gave us wigs, waist coats and wig snatching 1 liners.
This week we're heading back to 1996 for The Birdcage, a film
that had Robin Williams playing it mostly straight, Nathan Lane
stealing every seat, and Gene Hackman in drag.
It's farce, it's fierce, and it still knows how to put the F in

(00:22):
family dinner. Welcome to the No More Late Fees
podcast. I'm Jackie.
And I'm Danielle and we're just two best friends and ex

(00:43):
blockbuster employees re watching some of the best and
worst movies from the late 90s and early 2000s.
And this week we're we're divinginto the 1996 classic the
birdcage. But before we dive in, let's get
into some house. If you love the podcast and you

(01:07):
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(01:30):
then you can choose a movie fromour time frame and we'll cover
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(01:57):
And if you're looking for nostalgic merch to add to your
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Fees podcast. And this week, of course, we're
not alone. We are joined by our pod pals
from the podcast The Delicious Recap.

(02:18):
Joining us are AJ and John, the wonderful host.
Welcome guys. So glad to have you on.
Hello. And if you guys haven't heard of
the podcast, one that you'll hear their wonderful ad in our
pod Pals past segment later on today.
But also they cover the wonderful 90s show Family

(02:40):
Matters, which I know they have a lot of fun hot opinions that
you guys got to go check out. But if you want to learn more
about them and their show, make sure you go and check out this
week's bonus episode where we rate our 90s TV show Drag
performances and hear their employee pics.

(03:01):
All right, Jackie, tell us aboutthe bird cage.
So the Bird Cage is a vibrant and hilarious comedy about love,
family and acceptance centered around a flamboyant gay couple,
Armand and Albert, who run a drag nightclub in South Beach.
Their lives are turned upside down when Armand's straight son
announces his engagement to the daughter of an ultra
conservative US Senator. To win over the bride's uptight

(03:24):
parents, Armand must awkwardly hide his life, his partner, and
his nightclub in a desperate andwildly funny attempt to play it
straight for a dinner. It stars Robin Williams, Nathan
Lane, Gene Hackman, Diane Weiss,Dan Futterman, Calista
Flockhart, and Hank Azaria. You can currently watch it on
Prime. But before we start, let's get

(03:46):
into our ratings rewind. So you know the drill.
Before we get into the movie, we'll reveal the rating our Y2K
versions of ourselves would give, and then at the end we'll
see if our current cells agree with our initial rating.
Our scale consists of would buy it, would buy it again.
The best would play on repeat. Five day rental.
Would watch again. 2 day rental.OK, but nothing to write home

(04:11):
about. And same day rental.
Throw it in the trash along withAgador's shoes.
All right, we're going to start with you, AJ.
What is your Y2K rating? My Y2K rating would be two day
rental. I think that's where I would be
at in that age. And John?

(04:34):
I'm going to give it, I would say A5 day rental.
Jackie. I remember as a youth like
saying I love the Birdcage but Ihaven't watched this movie since
the 90s so I'm gonna go 5 day rental 'cause I had fond

(04:56):
memories of loving it but in actuality I didn't watch it that
often. Yeah, I'm right there with you.
I have to triple check, but I don't think I own it.
So I'm gonna say 5 day rental. But I remember thinking it was
the most the funniest thing ever.
And I love the end for some. Like those are the things that

(05:18):
are like burned seared into my brain.
So yeah, Friday rental. All right, apparently, Jackie,
we were not alone in our love for this movie that it had a
budget of $31 million and it grows $185.3 million.
That is a lot of feathers to buy.

(05:41):
I would like to go back to whatever it takes.
Had a budget of $30 million. We got the bird cage for 31
million. What is happening?
Well, we'll get it. We'll get into how this how the
how it was made. But so it opened in March of 96

(06:04):
and in its opening weekend, it opened to about $18 million.
And it remained at top for the next three weeks before it was
derailed by primal fear and a thin line between love and hate
coming out. But by the end of its fourteen
week run back in the day, Man a Movie was really in the

(06:25):
theaters. The film had grossed $124
million domestically at with an additional $61 million
internationally. Let's hear what little Raj had
to say. So.
Mr. Ebert. Film critic Roger Eber of the
Chicago Sun Times awarded the film three stars out of four,

(06:46):
writing that while the material will be familiar to those who
have seen the original 1978 filmor its Broadway incarnation,
what makes Mike Nichols version more than just re retread is did
I say that right? I think it's retreat maybe?
Retreat, OK, more than just a retreat, is good casting in the

(07:07):
key roles and a wicked screenplay by Elaine May, who
keeps the original story but adds little singers here and
there. Live on Fisher Island and
getting buried in Palm Beach. That way you'll get the best of
Florida as being one of those lines.
However, in his review for the Washington Post, Hal Henson

(07:28):
noted the film's subversiveness,commenting that while
politicians like Keely talk a good game of family values, it's
Armand and his non traditional clan who have the stable home
life. They are a family.
So the Bird Cage represented a major turning point for in media
for the portrayal of LGBTQ people.

(07:49):
We write, I think right after this, no, right before this, I
think we talked about this when we did to Wongfu.
We had the adventures of Priscilla, the Queen of the
Desert that came out and to Wongfu.
And yes, to Wongfu was a bit of it a hit, but not this was very
like mainstream, I guess you could say.

(08:12):
And it also, you know, those movies also featured drag Queens
and were released prior to this movie, but did not achieve the
same level of box office success.
The studio films centering on gay people to that point were
movies like Philadelphia, which tended to focus on tragic
stories concerning HIV and AIDS.While this story obviously was

(08:34):
lighter, fair and again show demonstrating maybe more a of a
family life than we had experienced on from a media
standpoint, and it opened up thedoors.
I think maybe like a year or twoafter we got Queer Eye, we got
in and out. We got, oh, what's the name that

(08:54):
show? The L word was.
Not the L, the L word, no. But there was something before
the L word. There was another show.
Oh, queer as folk. Queer as folk, thank you now.
So this was kind of like like anA gateway.
Like a big stepping stone. Yeah.

(09:16):
Well, before we get into the cast and crew, let's hear a
message from our pod pal. Hey, it's John Francois.
Hola y'all, I'm AJ Vandertein. And have you ever licked
something and thought that's delicious?
Well, that's us. We're the delicious recap.
We're putting our tongues on allkinds of media.
Family matters. We're putting our tongue on nine

(09:38):
years worth of content that is sometimes good, sometimes not so
good. But you know what?
All around, it's childhood lovely goodness that is worth a
taste. It really is.
I wonder what a snort would taste like.
It tastes like mango. We're recapping family matters
from beginning to end. I mean, we've done season 1.
We're currently on season 2. As we're recording this, we
interview cast and crew from theshow.

(10:00):
We interview like minded 90s loving podcasters.
Come join us the delicious recapwherever you get your podcast.
So cast and crew Nichols envision Robin, Robin Williams
and Steve Martin in the worlds of Albert and Armand,
respectively. But Martin turned it down
because he did not think that hewould be able to bring the camp
quality required for the part. And Williams did not want to

(10:23):
play Albert because he had already played a flamboyant
character and misses Doubtfire. And Steve Martin has gone on
record saying that he regrets this decision and it was his
last opportunity to work with Robin Williams before he passed
away. Oh wow.
I do think that Steve Martin, like, it would have been
hilarious without a doubt. But there's something about the

(10:47):
way Nathan Lane played the role that felt grounded, you know,
like it was a caricature, obviously very on the extreme,
but he he had so much heart to it.
And I just wonder if Steve Martin would have been able to
like add that layer. But Steve Martin would have
played Armand Armand and Robin Williams would have played

(11:08):
Albert. OK, that changes.
That changes the. That does that does change it,
but I still. Yeah.
Would have had to do a whole lotof waxing to play Albert I feel.
It definitely, it definitely wouldn't have aged well if it
was and Robin, because it's likeit's two straight men, yeah.
Right. And, and I think yeah, Steve

(11:30):
would have been the the the straighter character or the
seeming character Armand. So I think he would have been
OK, but Robin and Robin has donelike, you know, gay comic bits
in a stand up and on The TonightShow, like I I think it was a
good choice to have Nathan Lane do it because Nathan Lane being
gay in real life, I would think that he had some agency to take

(11:55):
it where he could take it and you know, be OK with it.
So. I don't know.
What do you think, AJ? I do think that Steve Martin
would have been fun to see, but for me and just experiencing the
movie, I felt like it was like missed out fire light.
So if Robin Williams ended up being Albert, I've been like,
wait, are we just rehashing the same movie over again?

(12:18):
And that's why he turned it down, right?
I mean, because he already played drag with Misses
Doubtfires, and Robin wanted to do something different.
So yeah, that's why he that's why he decided to go with
Armand. Well, the the duo behind this
movie was Mike Nichols who directed and then Elaine May who
wrote the script. And this was a long-awaited

(12:41):
movie collaboration between the two.
Like they had been wanting to work together for a while.
So it was, I think they did a great job.
I also think. And they were sorry to
interrupt. They were also famous comedy
teams. So that, that that probably
added to the anticipation. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's pretty interesting,
too, because I think the lore behind this is that they were

(13:05):
going to make the Broadway musical, bring it to Broadway.
And I think Mike Nichols wanted to either be a part of that
production or he was already talking about, like, making a
movie. But someone had, like, told him
no. So he actually went to the head
of the studio and was like, I need you to option this to make

(13:29):
it into a movie. And that's how he kind of like
got around it and was able because he really, really wanted
to, to make this into a film. So I was like, go ahead and do
what you got to do. Diane took his man.
And when Nathan Lane was cast, he was already committed to
starring in a Broadway production of A Funny Thing

(13:50):
Happened on the Way to the Forum.
But Nichols convinced producer Scott Rudin to postpone the
musical so that Lane could star in the film The strings.
The You have to have to delay a Broadway show.
Insane. Yeah, Broadway always needs this
funny. So that Nathan Lane must have

(14:10):
been a really important get for Mike Nichols to to, you know,
make that phone call. Yeah, and Gene Hackman said that
taking a role in the cast was anopportunity for him to return to
his improv comedy roots, which. I never knew about that.
I knew obviously Gene Hackman has a great dramatic resume, but

(14:31):
like Jesus, I never knew he had a background in improv comedy.
Well, that makes, like one of our favorite movies that we
covered not too long ago was Heartbreakers, and he is
hilarious in them. Yeah.
Really, I have to see that. I was always afraid of Gene
Hackman. I was like, he looks angry all
the time. What first and foremost

(14:51):
Heartbreakers. It is a classic.
It's so damn good. It's just it's so fun and silly
and he he plays a very weird smoking addicted billionaire
with and he has a prosthetic on his nose.
He looks awful in it, but yeah, really fun.

(15:12):
I've got to brush up on my Gene Hackman movies I've seen.
So I've seen so few, like he wasLex Luthor and Superman, but,
and I think I saw The Royal Tenenbaums a while ago.
But yeah, I haven't, I haven't seen as many Gene Hackman
movies. So especially since he's now
gone, it would be nice to just go through his IMDb.
Yeah, yeah. Apparently the Royal Tenon
bombs, he had no clue what was happening the entire shoot.

(15:33):
Like he was so confused. He didn't get it.
He didn't get Wes Anderson. Like he was pretty much like I,
I'm acting. I don't know what this this
story is saying, but I'm here. What was that the last movie
before he retired? Because I think he.
Retired, the Heartbreakers was. Oh, Heartbreakers.
Yeah, yeah. OK, so I'm watching the Royal

(15:54):
Tannenbaums now because I've never seen it, and now I've got
to watch Heartbreakers. This is going to blow my mind
because I was afraid of that man.
Yeah, no. These are two non scary gene
hackman. Movies.
Yeah. 100%, yeah. About something else.
Yes, RIP Nichols originally conceived British actor Adrian

(16:16):
Lester in the role of Agador, but reworked the role after he
and Lester came to mutual agreement that showing a black
person in the role of a housekeeper would connote racist
undertones. I also think that Hank David
Alan Grier was also considered as well.
So. Interesting.
Yeah, but you know, yes, I I getit Like, but it would have been

(16:40):
cool to have like a black character, especially if we're
down in South Beach or in in Miami.
Why not? But we, you know, Hank Azaria
did a great job. So.
Hank Azaria. I mean, I, I've totally forgot
he was in this movie. First of all, because I'm, I
know him from like all those voices on The Simpsons.

(17:01):
Yeah, he really got, he really put some umph into that role
and, and hearing that he like, you know, did the research that
he did to make the role as accurate as possible.
But David Alan Grey would have crushed it.
I I love David Alan Grey on the on the living color and other
things. I think he would have crushed
that I'm. Starting his character, I would
have loved it, but I'm not used to seeing like a character who's

(17:24):
black in the gear world that's not presented as like DL.
So that would have been an interesting mix to have.
Yeah, well, Hank Azaria is so like his range is hilarious
because what was it? What was the the character in
Anesthesia that he was the bad Bartok.
Bartok. Yeah, that voice and then this

(17:47):
one. So do you know?
Sorry, did you know that he was like, really, really good
friends with Matthew Perry? Like one of Matthew Perry's best
friends. Yeah, that sounds right.
And they came up together, like,as comedic actors.
And so Matthew Perry talks a lotabout Hank Azaria in his book.

(18:09):
You know what I you said MatthewPerry.
And I was like, oh, wow. And then when you said comedic
actors, I had to take a step back.
Girl, why? I was thinking Luke Perry in my
head. Oh.
Yeah. I said that Perry on that,
right? But Matthew Perry makes a lot
more sense now that you say that.
OK? Perry, There's the serious

(18:29):
Perry. Yeah.
It's like comedy. Yeah.
I love that Agador was partly based on Judy Garland's dresser,
so now I've got to go look at who her dresser was.
And Hank Azaria did say that he had worked up different versions
of Agador. One was more understated, barely

(18:51):
obviously gay, almost a street tough character.
And then one was the character that ended up in the movie.
And he said that both felt real to him.
He had grown up with Puerto Rican St.
Queens who were very effeminate and flamboyant and others who
weren't. So he kind of tried both
versions for a friend who workedas a drag queen and kind of had

(19:13):
their input on which character he should go with.
That really fascinated me because I thought, like Azaria,
I think he's straight. Is he straight?
I'm not sure. Yes, he was married to Helen
Hunt for a long time. So I had the impression, I mean,
so I see this guy in this 1996 movie who is very effeminate,
has the short shorts, has a verythick, I guess Guatemalan

(19:36):
accent. I just thought like, oh, Hank
Azaria's just just came up with a character and that was it.
So to see that, to see that he actually talked with people that
he grew up with and to to make sure that it was accurate, it
was like, oh, OK, that adds an interesting layer to this.
And he also said it wasn't like until halfway through the
production before he realized that he was literally just

(19:57):
playing his grandma. Like that was the character.
Like down to the the voice and everything.
Yeah, he was channeling his grandma.
Wait, does Hezaria have some Guatemalan in him like the?
I don't know what his ethnicity is, but I'm assuming it's got to

(20:17):
be some sort of Latino. OK.
I. Just always looked at him and
saw white, so I didn't. I didn't know.
It doesn't surprise me that his grandmother is essentially who
he was playing because most little gay boys who are like,
I'm going to dress up in drag, they're imitating their
grandmother. Because.
She's typically the funny one for them.
I did not know that he actually practiced this role, though.

(20:40):
I was like, oh, OK, he's doing something out there.
Took. It.
Seriously. Generally he is of Sephardic
Jewish descent, so his family originally is from Spain.
Oh, the not Latino, but Hispanic.

(21:00):
Correct. OK.
Yeah. Interesting.
We're learning all sorts of things today.
Lots of. Things.
Damn, hang Azaria, are you so layered as a person?
Right. Talented I wondered how much
money because like we've learnedwatching that Real Housewives of
Beverly Hills that Jennifer Tilly Jennifer Tilly has that

(21:22):
Simpsons money for real for realI just wonder how much money he
really has from. A.
Good. A good amount, yeah.
Yeah, 'cause there's, there's like a 90 million episodes of
The Simpsons and I would assume that he's getting a good chunk
of change for each one, especially when you factor in
reruns like I would. I would like to think he's
making a decent living off of it.

(21:42):
I don't think that man has to work again in his life.
Probably not. Probably.
Not honestly. All right, Jackie, let's dive
into the movie here. We.
Go. So we start out, we have this
establishing shot where we see South Beach and then we kind of
focus in on the Birdcage, which is a drag nightclub.

(22:03):
There's a performance going on and then backstage, Starina, who
is Albert's drag character, is getting ready.
But she is she is not feeling the performance tonight.
There's too many things going on.
She's overwhelmed. And so then we kind of

(22:25):
discovered that Armand, who is the club owner and he's
schmoozing everyone in in the front of the house, is Albert's
partner. And so he has to, Armand has to
go backstage and kind of talk Albert down so he can go on.
We we get the feeling that this is a everyday occurrence, this

(22:47):
is not unusual. And so he's got to go.
And and Agador is just like fussing around him, like the
whole time just fussing, fussing, fussing.
Calm him down. But really, probably just adding
to the chaotic energy that is backstage.

(23:07):
But. One of my favorite things that
like stuck with me from Y2K is the oh, I just give him a little
parent and. 1. Before and one after and and
Armand's like, what the fuck areyou giving him?
What is this medication you havehim on?
And he's like, oh, it's just Asperna scratch off the A and

(23:30):
the S Yeah, I'm like yeah, yeah,yeah.
It was a great. Show I.
Love that. It's parent medication, yeah.
Why is it that I didn't get thattill you just said that?
Like I just figured when he saidhe took the A and SI just
thought like the initials were on there but now I get the
parent OK. Yeah.
No, no, no. It took me a while to get it.

(23:51):
Too over my head. Yeah, no, no, I had to take a
second. And then once I got it, like as
the movie kept going, I was justlaughing out loud because like
this, I thought it was a great joke.
Every once in a while I'm like Ineed my parent tablets like
still use it to this day. We were talking about one of one
of our other episodes more recently cuz we were watching

(24:13):
the drag show happening. They're singing, we are family,
but they're lip singing. And I think the very first time
I ever went to a drag show, I was like, I didn't understand
that they don't actually sing. So I was very upset.
I was like, wait a minute. That's that's part of the art.
Yeah. I haven't gone to a couple of
drag shows that AJ has brought me to.
It's yeah. I mean, they just, it's, it's

(24:36):
more about seems like it's more about the costume and just
putting on the character than actually having singing talent.
But AJ, I mean, you've been to alot more drag shows, so you can
attest to that more than. I, I take offense to everything
you all just said, live in my drag.
There we go. Well, well, the one that I went
to, I think the first one, I went to a bunch in New York and

(25:00):
I went to one at Lips. I think Lips might have been the
first one. And I was just like, so they're
not really singing, okay. I know I, I haven't, I'm not
caught up on Drag Race, but I know Jan from who was one of the
contestants on a season of RuPaul's Drag Race.
She sings and she is a beautifulsinger and so is Brooklyn

(25:22):
Heights. She, I, I went to their
Christmas performance and it wasjust beautiful when they were
singing and they sing live. There's some performers they
sing live, some lip sync, some you can tell don't know the
words to a. Song like a few.
Of those girls in the opening I was like y'all don't know the

(25:43):
song but they were using the mics to cover their faces.
Yes, see I'm fine with the lip syncing, I just didn't know at
the time. Like my very first show, but I'm
not okay with. You're not doing a if you're
going to do a performance, you better do it right.
You better know the words. You better.
Like you have to make me feel like, oh shit, they're not.

(26:05):
They weren't singing. I thought they were.
That's what I want. Yeah, give you your money's
worth. I got that.
Well, and especially you're in amovie, you couldn't do the bare
minimum, which is memorize this song.
Iconic song. I don't.
Know what the circumstances are,I'll give them that.
We don't know if they. Maybe it was a direction that

(26:26):
was. Given to them, right?
Maybe they just got hired randomly, we don't know.
You don't know, you can always say chicken, tuna, salabanga,
something, don't worry, and it'll answer that song.
Also is We Are Family, the only song that this drag club knows,
because I think it's like in thebeginning of the movie, at the

(26:47):
end of the movie, I, I, I think that's the the.
Only I don't know if the budget we learned, we have learned on
this show that sometimes to get the rights to song, yeah, can
take a lot of the budget. So I'm wondering if like we got
cleared but we are family and that's it.
We're going to ride it till the wheels fly.

(27:08):
Thank you, Sister Slag. Asked me for nothing, but
apparently there is original music by Stephen Sondheim and
Stephen said it was fun to write.
It takes all kinds. The song was meant to play over
the opening titles, but when Nichols heard We Are Family by
Sister Sledge, he changed his mind.
So there we go. This whole We Are Family thing

(27:30):
was added last minute, so that'swhy the girls didn't have enough
time to get it together. So.
I see. I see and they all seem like a
family so it's very appropriate.So Starina goes on.
She's fabulous. She's a comedy queen, so she
tells jokes, she's entertaining me, the crowd.

(27:51):
And there are so many referencesto the Kennedys in this opening.
Yes, I wrote that down in my notes too.
Yeah. I'm like, do all the Kennedys
live in South Beach now? Well, there's a lot of political
name drops, first of all. Foremost, it was kind of wild to
me that there was a Jeb Bush. Multiple Jeb Bush drops when?

(28:13):
I'm like, I don't even think at that time period I even knew who
the fuck Jeb Bush was. Right.
Nobody did. I mean, maybe he was governor of
Florida or sort of. No, he was governor, yet he
became governor. I feel like he was governor when
his brother ran for president in2000.
He. Was, but he was.
He became governor. I want to say maybe when we were

(28:34):
middle school, Jackie, because Iremember the election. 99.
So OK, high school then. Yeah, right. 99 is when he first
became governor. Correct.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Yeah. So right as the 2000 election
was going on. OK, OK.
So I guess he was like in the political scene, I'm sure he was
like a senator. Well, because their dad was
president so. Yeah.

(28:56):
Yeah, but there was Kennedy's. There was.
They mentioned Clinton. Yeah, they mentioned Bob Dole.
Yes. But only at the the ending
scene. Where one?
Of the performers was like, oh Bob Dole is gorgeous.
Ewie, Oh gosh, I was trying to remember what I was gonna say.
Now it's gone, but Oh yeah, Jeb Bush.

(29:21):
It was when we like when we werein college because we did a sit
in when they lost all those ballots when we had the recount.
The hanging bag. And so all the people at my
school went and we did a sit in at the Capitol because we were
in Tallahassee. That bitch was too scared to
come out. Damn fucking Jeb Bush and who

(29:42):
would have thought I would be wishing for the Bushes and
today. Isn't that sad?
Yeah, yeah, we. Didn't we?
Didn't know how good we. Had we didn't know how bad good
we had. Yeah, right.
Exactly. There's good, good, and then
there's bad Good. The voices weren't bad.
Good. I love how literally I'm looking

(30:02):
at this film and not a God damn thing in South Beach has changed
like it looks. Exactly how it looked in this
movie still to this day. Maybe just a few tweaks.
But you mean it's not just sand?No.
That sounds about right. Yeah.
Yeah. As I told you, I've only been
to, I mean, my last time I was in Miami was for my honeymoon a

(30:24):
couple years ago. I don't know if that we were in
the South Beach area, but yeah, no, I'm not too familiar with
that. So that's, so that's interesting
that it kind of hasn't changed. Well, the like I think they try
to keep it's very the art Deco vibe.
It's just a part of what the aesthetic is of South Beach.
So the a lot of the buildings are older and.
It's kind of like Palm Springs, like they always try to keep,

(30:47):
really. True to its loots.
So after Starina's performance, she's like, she's spinning.
She she's accusing Armand of having an affair because they
both drink red and he has a bottle of white chilling.
She thinks that she's too old for the spotlight.
He's going to find a newer model.

(31:07):
Like all the things and he's like, calm down.
Which I don't understand. Why are you not telling her your
son's in town? Like she is very obviously a
part of Val's life. Val is the villain in this.
Movie he is and I think he doesn't tell her him about it
because he knows that he's goingto go out the deep.

(31:30):
He wanted him to go perform so that's why he kept it quiet.
Plus, Val told him that he just wants to talk to him.
Which is also villain like how long has Albert been a part of
your family and you're not goingto share this wonderful news
with your father and his partner?
Like what the fuck I. Think Val has gone out into so

(31:52):
Val is 20 years old. He is in, well, I'm guessing
he's almost done with college. He has met a girl.
He comes home, he tells his dad he's coming literally for the
night essentially. And I, I really think that we
have to also look at the time period, right?
Like his parents, he loves his parents, but to the outside

(32:15):
world, this is a very different family dynamic.
And I think even his dad, he talks about references, like
when he went to school, his dad told him if your teacher asked
what I do say I'm a businessman.So they've already, you know,
yes, they're living in a neighborhood, an area where it's

(32:37):
more open and people maybe have accepting, yeah, more accepting
in their community. But now Val has gone out into
the outside world. He's probably gone to some Ivy
League, some very stuffy conservative.
I mean, for him to meet this damn Waspy girl, he's been in a
different environment. And I think he is trying to

(33:00):
navigate that. And we do see that arc through
from the movie, from the beginning to the end, where he,
it's almost like he's reminded of where he comes from, who he
is, who his family is, and he comes to full acceptance.
But I, I do think a lot of the stuff that comes out from that
is him trying to find a place tofit, which is very interesting

(33:22):
because he is not a gay character.
But some of the things that are happening to him or the way that
he's expressing himself could bemirrored to somebody who is in
the closet trying to navigate the world.
That that's how I perceived it. And also his questions about

(33:42):
like what I don't think that they really should didn't dive
into that. I think they should have was
this whole the boy clearly has questions about his birth mom,
right? Like, he had a full family life
and he was very loved. But there is this longing about
his mother. Like you could see that come in

(34:04):
little pieces throughout the movie.
So I'm wondering if that also isa part of it.
But it does feel like he's ashamed.
And that is like heartbreaking to see.
Yeah, it's interesting to see the Internet in conversation
about this movie nowadays be divided on how to view Val.
There are some people who understand what he's going

(34:29):
through growing up, having parents who are different than
others in the outside world and can be more sympathetic to Val
because of that. And then there are others who
understand Blair, are like, Oh, well, you know, you're asking
your dad and his partner to not be themselves.
And we just don't have much tolerance for that nowadays when

(34:50):
it's, I would think, much more safer to be gay than it was back
in the 90s. So it's interesting how people
have divided. Opinions on this?
Oh no, it's not. Never mind, never mind.
AJ It's not safer. I think more people, I think
people have more of under like a, it's not as shock and awe, I

(35:11):
guess you could say from a mediastandpoint, but it's probably
more dangerous now than ever, what with the regime that we're
under unfortunately didn't. Think about that.
That's like, that's a good point.
That's a good point. Yeah, this movie, just the
character Val himself, Val has alot of issues that we should be
talking about. Hey, you need to go to therapy

(35:31):
for that. Maybe law school wasn't the
place for you to go to just yet because there's a lot of things
that, like you, I feel are not addressed in the movie that
should be addressed far more directly.
But then that makes me feel like, hey, at this point in time
in life, the time period they were in the movie itself is
already like, whoa, it's people who are going to play gay.

(35:51):
This is crazy, but I just could not find myself a loving vow at
all. I'm just like, oh, you are,
you're bad. Like to get from where you came
from to leave your home and thencome back and bring all of that
vitriol with you, whether you meant to do it subliminally or

(36:13):
not. And there were micro address
aggressions that were a part of this.
I'm like, oh ick, I don't like him at all.
Like this is your safe space, this is your home, this is where
you feel most comfortable with your family and everyone is
accepted. And then you're just going to
bring not only people that don'thave exposure to gay people, but

(36:38):
like someone who is actively working against people like your
father's. Like it's mind boggling.
The The funny thing to me, like the way that I can conflate this
too, is if you think about a lotof white people who have black

(36:59):
caretakers who have raised them their entire lives, right?
Who they have much love for. And then they go out into the
real world and they see their privilege or they know what
their privilege is and then denounce and hate on black
people when they had a black person raising them because of

(37:24):
that relationship or that proximity to privilege.
And I can imagine again, that this kid who might even have
had, like you said, needed to goto therapy, who had probably
resentment because he went to school and everybody had the mom
and the dad and he didn't have that.
He was loved, but he didn't havethe typical and probably crave

(37:48):
that and went out into this world, had his proximity to
privilege and is almost angry about it and it's taking it out
in that way. Why would he go find the most
conservative woman to be with? It's like he was craving that
stability and he went the complete opposite.

(38:09):
Actually, Barbara seemed more accepting than Val even was of
his His. Parents.
Yes, because look at who her parents are.
Oh, they were batshit. Fucking crazy.
So she's grown up with these very strict everything.
Like everything matters about how things are perceived before

(38:32):
the how much they care about their actual child.
So to see loving parents from her, her boyfriend's loving
parents, she could, she could see that he can't see that
because he's got shit that he can't get through and he needs
to go to therapy for. So I could see him like wanting
a career in politics and almost kind of hating his parents

(38:55):
because they're going to always be his, a hindrance to him.
They're a hindrance to him beingable to marry into this Waspy
family. So there's a lot of like, anger
underneath all this stuff. Yeah, Val doesn't want to stand
out. I think he just has this
subconscious thing of like, what's it like to be normal?
Right, he's weak. He's a pussy ass bitch.

(39:18):
Val is giving very Caitlyn Jenner energy.
Throughout the entire movie. Yes, because at the end of the
day you are trans, but you were still you still you haven't
unpacked your white male issues.Yeah, and unlearn some shit.
So right. You guys think he looks 20?

(39:39):
I don't think he looks 20. I think he.
Looks no. Like 10 years older.
But this is the 90s. He probably was 20s and it still
will look like he's old. That's.
True I immediately I saw him I was like is that big girls don't
cry they. Get even and then I was.
Like, yes, that is yes, there isthis very niche movie called Big
Girls Don't Cry. They get even and he plays.

(40:01):
Like one of the Is he the brother?
Yeah, the brother in it. Is that the movie with Hilary
Swank or am I getting it confused with?
Boys don't cry. Boys don't cry.
Never mind. Very different vibes.
I imagine. Yeah, that movie came Big Girls
Don't Cry came out and I do one.And actually, funny enough, the

(40:23):
guy who plays Corey from Boy Means World isn't it when he's
little. What's his name?
Savage. Ben Savage.
Wow. All right.
Yeah, Dan, Dan Futterman is in that, but I want, I'm going to
find out. He's 58 years old.
He was born in nine in 1967. Who who wants to do quick math?
1996 -, 1967. Like 30 or like 29?

(40:48):
So he was nine years older than the character he was playing.
How old was Calista? Let's.
See at. That time.
And what's funny is that Calista.
Isn't this before Ally Mcbeal? It was Ally Mcbeal was like late
90s that came out. Did you have feelings saying

(41:09):
Calista? Are you and Calista cool,
Danielle? Even though she has stolen my
man, yes. Is this an Ally Mcbeal reference
that I'm not getting right now? Or no, she's married to Harrison
Ford, who is Danielle's one and only.
That's. My that's my man.
My man, my man. My man, they.

(41:32):
Are married. Wow, that's a That's a massive.
2010 is when I went into cardiacarrest because that bitch stole
my man her thin ass. Wait.
How? What's the age?
What's the age difference like? Listen, Harrison, I did.
Not it's a lie. She's 60 and he's 80 something.

(41:53):
Yeah. Just a couple of years off.
So she was born in 1964, so justa few.
She was in her mid 20s when she came when this came out.
But The funny thing is that the both of them were in a TV show
called Brothers and Sisters and I believe he was initially cast
to play her love interest in thebeginning but they had to change

(42:14):
it and then towards the end of the show they brought him back
and he ended up playing her loveinterest which I thought was a
nice. Or.
No Calista and Dan Featherman who plays in this movie.
And Brothers and Sisters is amazing by.
The way it is such a good show and I love how he's just like

(42:36):
he's literally like the every just the like the blatant random
white man in any movie as a loveinterest Cuz I think he comes at
the end of under the Tuscan sun as well.
That's why. I love that movie.
And he's also in enough, I think, with Jlo.
He isn't enough. He just plays that random, not

(43:00):
special. Random.
He's very vanilla, yes. Land Wonder Bread, white guy.
In front of us. He's high, he's got good art and
candy, but he's very forgettable, so he doesn't take
the room. Exactly.
That's funny. So Val tells Armand he's getting
married, explains that Barbara is Senator Kevin Keely's

(43:25):
daughter, very staunch conservative politician from
Ohio, and so he asks to tone down his lifestyle and also, by
the way, pretend to be straight because they're coming to visit.
I I think that he's too old to be this much of an asshole.
So meanwhile, back in Ohio, Senator Keeley is dealing with a

(43:50):
bit of a scandal. His fellow Co founder of the
Coalition for Moral Order, whichsounds heartbreakingly similar
to some of the things that we are seeing present day which is
so upsetting, has died under suspicious circumstances
involving an underage prostitute.

(44:11):
OK, when he gets this phone call, he gets his phone call and
he finds out that this, this senator has been found dead.
And so he's like a prostitute, black.
Right. Yeah.
I was like. I was stunned by how racist this
guy. Yes, I wasn't like, I wasn't

(44:34):
stunned, but it was just like, oh man, this is but this was so
real. This is the real reaction.
And then he he goes later and says this is a nightmare.
Plus we're going to have we're going to lose the blacks the
votes. I'm like, first and foremost, we
all know you ain't never had theblacks.
What are we talking about? And I know they wouldn't, right?

(44:56):
They were never concerned about having the black vote.
Give me a break. Right, right.
But yeah, there's some some things that cringe.
But the actress who plays the said prostitute.
Trina. McGee is Trina McGee from Boy
Meets World. I never caught that before.
I think, I mean as I watched her, I I think I recalled her

(45:19):
mentioning it on her Pod Meets World interview that she was in
the Birdcage. But yeah, she appears for a
brief second as didn't they namethe character?
Isn't her name like nun tumba orsomething like South African?
Oh, bad. Yeah.
I don't know. It makes me.
Feel weird? Yeah, I know it's supposed to be

(45:39):
like an over exaggeration. It's a joke, but it's just like,
not like in that, not like in that.
Yeah, that in age, well. No.
So and meanwhile Barbara has lied set the stage to her
parents about who Vowels parentsare and she says that they're

(46:00):
cultural attaches from Greece. I love, I love that they make
Barbara's family in very muted tones in their makeup.
They're even Callista's hair color is like this, almost like
grayish dishwater. It's gross.

(46:21):
They're all wearing Grays, whichis such a great thing that when
they go to Miami and you see thecolors and the vibrancy in
comparison, it's just it, it vastly tells that story of how
different these people are in comparison and how like overcast
and dreary Ohio is because it's the middle of the winter and

(46:43):
whatnot. Yeah, Yeah.
That's an interesting talk. I didn't think about that.
That's that's actually a great contrast.
I loved a lot of the word trope and fashion choices that they
had in this because everybody who's down in Florida, I would
love to just be in a skinny bikini like them all the time.
Yes you definitely get that in South Beach. 100% them people

(47:05):
don't wear no fucking clothes down there.
You feel overdressed. Also I love that Robin Williams
is wearing his like wife beater.I don't know if you guys have
seen that the white women are back at it again claiming the
wife beaters, the little Hanes wife beaters that people black

(47:26):
community been wearing forever. Right now all of a sudden Kylie
Jenner wore it to I think some Knicks games and everyone's
going crazy going to go buy the little Hanes little boys tank
tops. I'm like y'all, this is we've
all, everybody knows what a fucking wife beater is like give
me a fucking break. I have a picture from Warped
Tour 1999 where I'm wearing one.It is not a new concept.

(47:51):
I was trying to I was trying to find mine.
I I could. Have.
But I don't, I don't have one anymore and I'm so sad.
I you know what I said, white women are back at it again.
I'm going to say Gen. Z is white women are back at it
again. Let me clarify because I know a
late 90s early 90s babe knows what a fucking wife beater is.

(48:13):
Like what are we playing at here?
It's always a war with the words.
Right now I'm learning with my nephews and nieces.
There's outdoor expression time,which is just going for a walk,
I've learned since. I don't even.
I don't even have words for that.
Why do we have to make it so much longer?

(48:33):
Like, why is it a whole conversation just to say I'm
going for a walk? Yeah.
Outdoor expression time give me.A fucking I'm getting
combination bread therapy. No, you mean a sandwich.
You're making a sandwich. Can I ask what attache?
What does attache mean? Like cultural attache.
I have no clue. I don't know.

(48:55):
I figured it was some sort of like embassy situation or a
designer. I don't know.
I didn't even think about it. I was like, that sounds right.
Let's see. Oh it is Danielle.
You were a diplomat or diplomat related specialist assigned to a
mission which focuses on cultural matters and exchange.

(49:17):
Wow, I'll take 200, Alex. Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I would
say a cultural ambassador is simple, but actually I like
cultural. I like cultural attache it
sounds. Better attache.
Next to the stage. Cultural attache.

(49:37):
Great drag name. Great drag name.
So now we see this is where I just embraced.
My. Heart Val insists that Albert
shouldn't be around during the visit.
Armand has to tell Albert. Albert is so hurt and like

(49:59):
Nathan Lane gives such heart to this character and all Albert is
doing is being true to himself and he's just asking, people
keep asking him to fit, conform to this box.
He's never going to fit in. Right.
And I think it's so cute that his nickname for Val is Piglet

(50:25):
and so excited that Val is home and he's getting a cake.
He's doing all these things and.But I do.
To be honest, I was confused. Maybe I was a little tired.
I actually thought he meant likea real piglet coming by.
I was like, OK, here we go. But no, no, it took me a minute
to realize it was a nickname forVal.

(50:46):
I do love that Armand at first tells Val to like, I'm not, I
work so hard to be who I am, I'mnot going back there.
But you know, every parent for their child wants life to be
easier for them and to help them.
And so he does this. But when he sees how hurt this

(51:07):
makes Albert, he does say fuck it, if I had to choose between
Albert and this shit, I picked Albert.
So he tells Albert to come and now they're going to say he's an
uncle because what they end up doing they're they're saying
that this is not going to work without maybe having like a
woman there to kind of distract or detract from Albert being

(51:30):
there. And so they throw he Val kind of
throws it out there that maybe his real mother will do it.
So what I was curious about is like, they never really say
exactly how the hell this happened.
Like I don't. I wasn't sure if Armand I feel

(51:51):
yet and he had a relationship with a woman or if he was with
Albert first or. I feel like it was a donor
situation. That's what it felt like to me,
because she was saying she's never been motherly.
It felt very transactional, likeyeah, her having.

(52:11):
That. But I thought, go ahead.
No, no, no, it's OK. I'm just remembering that
exchange in the office. Yeah.
Before there before Robin and the mom was about to get hot and
heavy. Didn't didn't he mention that
like they the only experience that he had with a woman was
with her between 2:30 and 3:45 AM and it was twice, like.

(52:31):
So I don't know if that affects what we're talking about, but
like. Because yeah, she she talked the
way she was talking about it because they were in a
production of a show together and she paid someone's because
she like wasn't like she had a thing for him.
And so it's almost like he kind of gave it a go kind of thing.

(52:52):
And I'm not really sure who he, if he was with.
I don't I'm assuming he wasn't with Albert yet.
And so when he talks about her, he says that she was very she
was young and poor. So it's and so then she has a
business and she says the money you gave me.
So it's almost like he paid her to go away, like go, I'll take

(53:18):
the baby. We you know this, you got
pregnant fine. So I don't know if it was a
donor situation, but it was definitely like, I'm not ready
to be a mom, right. OK, fine, here's some money.
I want my son. And then maybe Albert came into
the picture later, a little bit later.
On like, that's the way, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's what I get the feeling is that happens because

(53:40):
I'm like, I was trying to develop a back story for Armand
of like, OK, like, it's the weirdest thing.
I was like, was she his beard? Like, what was going on here
that led them to having the baby?
Because I'm just like, just randomly or just like, let's do
it, Let's figure it out. Yeah.
I don't know. Is it a gay man?
I don't think that would ever cross my mind.

(54:00):
But. This was also the point around
where Armin became the true villain of the movie for me.
And I was just like, oh, I don'tlike you at all.
The fact that she even contemplated making your partner
go back in the closet. I was like, I can't do this.
And I think that comes from me. I have been introduced as an

(54:21):
uncle so many times. When I'm like, dude, we are
fucking tell them. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
That, that that's, that's rough,Yeah.
I can imagine it's. Weird, man, it's a little weird.
Yeah, and, and not after decades.
Like clearly they've been together as long as Val has been

(54:45):
alive. So that's two decades with
someone. You got to be fucking kidding
me. Yeah, they should question where
they went wrong with Val here because he he hates his self and
his family. Well and OK, so for 20 years,
Val has seemingly no contact with his birth mother.

(55:07):
Yeah, he's never been. All of a sudden it's like, oh,
we need to put on the charade, let me ring her up real quick.
Like it would seem like a reallyeasy decision for them to make
and that she wasn't that hard toget a hold of and that they have
a fairly decent relationship. Yeah, but I would be like, I, I

(55:31):
feel like he was curious about her, but I'd be pissed.
Like, bitch, you don't. You just gave me up.
You just gave me up. OK, Yeah.
You were young then, but you literally took money.
You gave me up. Yeah.
And you? Took away you, took away the
perfect normal life that I was hoping to have.
Right. And you never checked on me
once. Yeah, haven't checked on me

(55:54):
once. Yeah.
Then that speaks to that internalized hate where it's
like, wow, you hate your family or yourself so much that you
would get a random woman you've never met in your life to step
in for this most important thing.
And it's funny because I think kids do this all the time.
They're always pissed at the parent that stayed and never

(56:15):
have that same kind of heat for the parent who fucking
disappear. So like, he's got all this stuff
with his real mother, essentially, who is Albert?
And here we are, fangirling for this bitch that popped you,
popped a squat, gave you up and went about her business.
Wild. So, so now they're trying to get

(56:39):
all this stuff together because what ends up happening is that
because the press is up every uptheir ass, they decide we've got
to get out of town because she, Barbara, has laid it on to her
parents that she wants to get marriage.
She's only 20. Her parents are like, girl, we
ain't got time for this. Let's get through this election
cycle and then we'll talk about this marriage.

(57:01):
But now they're like, maybe we should look into this marriage
because we need some press because the mom is like, oh,
let's have a white wedding. And I'm like.
What does that mean? White wedding with white people?
Or is it just like a white colored wedding?
I think it's just like a traditional white wedding is
what they were trying to get it.So they decide to dodge and get

(57:23):
out of town. And so they go down to Miami and
this is where like the whole scheme is like we've got to put
on this this thing for tonight. So but like.
They escape in the dark of the night and like, there's this
whole subplot with like these, areporter from The Enquirer
paying off the driver to find out where they're going.

(57:44):
But then there's like some sort of news station that record
accidentally records the interaction.
But they have some like CIA typelevel type shit that they can
zoom in and like focus on that particular conversation that's
happening to also find out whereSenator Achille is going.

(58:05):
Like I'm like, do we need all of?
This, no, probably not. But also the National Enquirer
reporters are following them because they had asked the
driver. And so one of the guys, the two
reporters, one of the guys, if Idon't know if I blinked and
missed it, but I felt like one of them was falling asleep and

(58:26):
the other one was like putting his arm around him.
And then like when he woke up, he was like, I don't know if I I
didn't see that. I have to go back and watch it
'cause there was a very odd interaction between the two.
The guy was completely obliviousand the other guy was very
attentive. So I was like, what's that
weird? Is this a subplot that I missed?

(58:48):
So there. Yeah, trying to get the scoop on
like, why the hell this family is coming to Miami.
And so they decide at last minute that they're going to
actually try to get Nick's having Catherine the bio mom
come because she's stuck in traffic.
And next thing we know, Albert comes out in full drag.

(59:09):
And let me tell you, the senator, he loves her.
He eating that shit up. He is, but before we get there,
we have to prep the space. Right, they have to get rid of
tone things down. Yeah, so like he has a lot of
more artwork, more on the flamboyant side.
Yes, everything comes down. They put this giant ass cross up

(59:32):
on the wall. Yeah, I love that.
The first thing was a moose head, and then yeah, they
exchanged it. But my my favorite part of the
whole movie was that the books that they get are the Nancy Drew
series. And I was like, classic.
Is that a thing with like straight men or straight couples
is that they're obsessed with? Nancy I don't know if it's a

(59:54):
thing for straight men and straight couples, but it's a
thing for Danielle. I got the whole collection baby.
I want to. I, I grew up with the books.
I remember reading the books. I just didn't know.
It was like, Oh yeah, have thesebooks and it'll show your
straight as an arrow, you know? I don't think so.
I. Guess a woman's touch that was
what they could in their minds that was feminine was Nancy

(01:00:15):
Drew, but the. Dad, like the senator, eats it
up because he's like, I love that they just keep it simple.
Nothing fancy with the books like he has Nancy Drew.
And then we also have Agador, who they're like trying to make
this Butler and he's just a house, but he's there for vibes,

(01:00:39):
he's there for a good time, he helps out, he cleans, but it's
his own style. And now he's been made to wear
shoes which make him fall down happy about that.
He can't cook. He's trying, but like Agador,
tries so hard because all he wants to do is be in the drag

(01:01:01):
show. And they keep holding the man.
Down. Why doesn't Armand actually
check in to see what the fuck he's cooking?
Like y'all should have been ordered food.
Yes, but just dump it in pots and pans.
Make it look like you cooked it.I was thinking that the whole

(01:01:24):
time I'm like, why didn't they just order take out everything
you could have saved yourself? But I do have to say the one
queen who put that moose head upon the wall.
I screamed. That was the moment of the movie
where I was like, yes, because if you tell me to straight a
space, I'm putting fur in animals everywhere.
The. Greatest fit ever.

(01:01:45):
Like, you know, take drag Queens.
Take gay people put together what they think is a straight
person's house. Oh, here's a moose head.
Here's a couple of Playboy magazines, and it's almost
accurate. Yes, I could not be more
obvious. I was shocked how much Albert
was saying like the most fucked up conservative shit and at the

(01:02:07):
end of the day he was like confirmed that oh everything
I've said is how I feel like that was shocking to me.
Yeah, the babies kill the mothers too.
It was Albert dressed as Madea saying that that sent me for a
loop. I was like, Oh my God.

(01:02:29):
I think it's hilarious that Louise the mom was or was it
yes, Louise. She was so jealous, yes, of
Albert of the mob like because the dad, which now makes me
question because we all know that grinder be fucking up

(01:02:49):
during the RNC every time they come together.
So we know there's a lot of closeted Republicans.
So the fact that he was getting on so like peanut butter and
Jelly with Albert and when the gig is up, the jig is up and he

(01:03:09):
realized he's looking at Albert.He Albert doesn't have his wig
on and he's like, I just don't understand.
What are you saying you are not a woman?
Like I it's. Impossible.
He seem more heartbroken about that than them being gay.
There are so many Republican menor men who think that way

(01:03:33):
conservatively, who do not realize they would probably be
best friends with a lot of gay people just based on how they
think. Yep.
And I love the bit with the the play settings, the.
Boys and the bowls. The boys of the bowls and like,

(01:03:53):
what are they doing? It looks like they're playing
leapfrog like dying. Girl quick.
Yeah, I think that's a girl. I think you go.
Get my glasses. Go get my glasses.
And I love how they don't explain that there's no other
courses that they're eating thishorrible.
Yeah, peasant soup. And then like he there were shot

(01:04:17):
to put the shrimp, but the shrimp, why?
They didn't go to a restaurant? Like, why?
Oh, well, you know what? It's because because they can't
be seen apparently. I'm sorry, you're telling me the
Kennedys and Bushes frequently are frequent your drag club?

(01:04:37):
You don't have some sort of security or private room and
like private entrance for them. Yeah.
And that, that and that goes into the other question of like,
how are these Kennedys and Bushes going into these drag
clubs knowing their political stances?
How do they get away with that? I mean.
Well, they're Democrats, so it'ssupposedly.

(01:04:57):
Not bad, but Jeb wasn't. No, no, the Bushes aren't
Democrats. The Bushes weren't at there.
They were. They were gonna stay at the the
Bushes. So God.
And these were the younger Kennedys, so I don't think it
mattered as much. That's fair.
I don't know. I was to think of the whole
Kennedy clan as like more conservatively minded Democrats,
so I don't know. Hard to believe that they would

(01:05:18):
get away with the drag. They're cursed.
Who knows? Yeah.
They are. So but Robin Williams slip and
fall during the shrimp scene wasnot planned.
He actually fell and Hank Azariaand Dan Futterman were holding
back laughter as he finished outthe scene and.
Then there was 2. You could hear in his inflection

(01:05:39):
when he's talking, It's really funny.
And I didn't notice when I was watching the movie earlier but
like reading that note on the Google doc, I literally had to
watch the clip on. YouTube like several times to
see what. You guys were talking about and
it's it's just great. I loved it.
I mean, it's a testament to their acting abilities because I
didn't know when I was watching.I just thought they started told
me. So, and, and like Danielle said,

(01:06:02):
the the Jake is finally up for some reason.
Well, we know the reason. Val intercepts this call with
his mom saying she's running behind.
Armand has called her and told her not to come.
So she's calling to confirm, am I still supposed to come?
Val intercepts that call, tells her no, you can still come, it's
fine. And then like, she shows up and

(01:06:27):
she's here to play this motherlycharacter.
Meanwhile, Albert has already been playing the mother.
And so that's when all of this confusion ensues.
And they should. Have just said we're I'm adopted
and called it a day like that's my birth mom.
They could have kept that going.I'm just kidding.
They gave up easily, but I thinkthis was when Val finally

(01:06:50):
realizes that he has put his both of his his dads into such a
position. And he sees how hard Albert was
trying and he's like, and what? So when they ask like, who's
your mom? He's like, it's Albert.
This is my mother. And that's like his one saving
grace in this whole goddamn movie.
Finally gets to be a decent human being.

(01:07:13):
Meanwhile, the reporters have found them.
And so now we need an escape plan.
And so I don't think we mentioned this before, but their
apartment is over the Bird Cage Club.
And so they're like, we got this.
Armand and and Albert are like, we got you, which, OK, you're
meeting these people. They they are like negating your

(01:07:38):
whole existence as a person and you're still going to just
happily help them out of the club.
I think I, they, I think it's because they look, they really
love Barbara and they know that Val loves Barbara and that
that's how it always is. You have these horrible, racist,

(01:07:59):
homophobic, hateful people and people on the other side that
they're saying is are so evil end up being kinder.
Yes. Nicer everything.
And more accepting, like we're accepting your homophobic
conservative asses more than you'll ever accept us.

(01:08:19):
And we're going to help you out the best we can.
And so they, they take them downto the birdcage, they dress them
up and drag. We get a second reprise of We
Are Family as we dance through the.
Song. And Gene Hackman looks like a
big old peppermint stick with that white wig you.

(01:08:41):
Know he he looks like Barbara Bush.
I was getting a little bit of Barbara Bush and drag.
Yeah, he looks so ugly. I'm sorry.
Horrible. He.
Freaked me out a little bit. This is the when he came out and
dragged I'm like y'all did not talk to anybody who just dragged
because he came out looking likea brick.
That man was. Terrible.
So did Barbara. What?

(01:09:03):
What was that Liza Minnelli likebasement rack wig that they had
her in? And Louise, what was she?
Why did she not get like the full glam drag look?
She looked like a like a Madonnaesque 19 early 80s one shoulder

(01:09:24):
T-shirt like what is she doing? It was.
So weird it. Was such such an odd thing, but
they're able to get out of the club without being noticed
because Catherine the bio mom, she has her car so nobody checks
to see who these people are going.

(01:09:44):
But I love that he tells the driver like meet me on this
corner and the drivers like okayyeah right.
I'm like, did the driver ever get there like.
Yeah. To myself, how did they get out?
How did they get to Jebb House? It's such an interesting way to
end that portion of the movie. Like, I'm with you guys where I

(01:10:04):
was sitting there, I was like, really?
So they just get to leave and escape like nothing happened.
But then I had to remember this was more for the safety of
Armand and Albert because this whole movie is about passing.
And if you can pass in a straight space or pass in a gay
space, maybe you're OK. But for us who can't pass, it

(01:10:25):
puts our lives in danger. So then all of a sudden this
senator leaves this gay establishment and people find
out about it. And there's two choices.
The senator can either say no, Iaccept them, or no, we need to
burn that place down and attack everybody there because this is
evil. So like, I had to like, deal
with that in my head where I'm like, oh, I want him to get out.

(01:10:46):
It's so bad. And when the one reporter like,
looked back, I'm like, oh, they got him.
And I'm like, no, really. Yeah, I I never looked at it
from that perspective, but yeah,you're so right.
It is a about passing and and soand it's not just gay, straight,
but also the fact Jewish, Christian, because like their

(01:11:07):
last name is Goldman and then they try to say Coleman.
So like Val is literally trying to repress every single ISM
about him or difference of himself with these people.
Land white Christian like I got to I got to put on this mask.
Yeah. So and and I feel like we had

(01:11:28):
such beautiful storytelling likethe first 2/3 of the movie and
then the like last third feel sorushed.
It does, yeah. I was surprised.
I like positive. At one point I was like, I only
have 10 minutes left and they hadn't even gotten to the drag
club yet. With the escape.
I'm like, how are we going to wrap this up in 10 minutes?

(01:11:50):
And it's just like drag scenes wedding done.
And I'm like, how do we get hereso quickly?
I want more story. I want what happened after the
drag show, what happened with the two parents relationship and
like how they come to accept each other or this wedding to

(01:12:12):
move forward. But I do think the pacing of
this is because Mike Nichols wanted this to be like a play
the way that he that it's frames.
And so I that makes me feel likethat's why the flow is the way
that it is, because it's supposed to be essentially like
a play. And he talked, he talks about

(01:12:33):
that with how much improv he wasable to he gave to Robin
Williams and Nathan Lane and howhe also wanted to catch like
every scene. So he required that Nathan Lane
and Robin Williams filmed at least one good take of each
scene, sticking to the script before he allowed them to

(01:12:56):
improvise. So he definitely wanted that,
that pacing of that flow of a play.
So that that's why when I was watching it, I didn't think it
was too fast because that's how it felt.
It felt like I was watching a play.
But he also, in rehearsals, would let them improvise a lot
and then take the best pieces ofthat and kind of weave that into

(01:13:18):
the script at times, too. Yeah, to kind of get that
collaborative effort. Yeah, a very generous director
cuz there are a lot of directorswho are just be like no, stick
to the script. But yeah, the best ones are
usually ones who can balance like that discipline, but also
know that there are actors like a Robin, like a Nathan, who just

(01:13:39):
need that space to experiment, to find different angles on
their characters. So to to have that director like
Mike Nichols be an actor's director, I think it made the
movie what it is today, so. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, Danielle. No, I was gonna end it.
So yeah, our final scene is, I think it's at a year later.

(01:14:02):
I could have just made that out,but eventually we're at Val and
Barbara's wedding. Both families are there.
And like you can see, Val's sideis very obviously the drag
family as well as his kind of adopted family.
And I found it really fascinating that Agador was a a

(01:14:24):
groomsmen. Like I felt like they didn't
have a relationship like that. It was odd to me.
I didn't even notice that. Yeah, well, because I was
looking for him in in like the fishing shot.
Yeah, exactly. And then I was like, where is
Agador? Like surely he's been invited to
this wedding. I'm like, oh shit, he's up.

(01:14:46):
He's up with Val. Yeah, well, Val's an asshole, so
he probably doesn't have a lot of friends.
That's very true. That's a good point and Barbara
probably had a ton of bridesmaids so got to fill them
spaces baby. Fair.
So and then we see Barbara's side is very like conservative,

(01:15:06):
like conservatively dressed. We see a lot of like implied
senators and politicians on her side.
But I mean, there were references to some acceptance
because Val is wearing a yarmulke, so like, very proudly

(01:15:26):
displaying his Jewish heritage. So it seems like they've at
least worked through that. Yeah, and they had a rabbi and a
priest performing the the ceremony, so.
All I can hope is that there wasa work towards understanding of
each other. Yeah, accepting of the two

(01:15:48):
families and that is the bird cage.
We did. I wonder if it's okay to just
put out a couple, put out a couple of honorable mentions.
I don't know if we mentioned this, maybe we did, but probably
some of the greatest comedy I'veever seen is Robin Williams as

(01:16:09):
Armand trying to straighten up, if you will, Nathan Lane as
Albert. That's.
That scene with them outdoor at the restaurant where you try to
get Albert to like, walk like John Wayne and Albert puts his
own effeminate spin to it. And the irony of like, you know,
picking John Wayne because. John The.
Greatest reputation with liberals, the queer community,

(01:16:31):
etc. And also Oh my God I laughed so
hard when. The piercing of the toast.
The yeah, yeah, the piercing of the toast.
Smear. Smear the toast.
But no, he's. Pierced it.
That was great. And then, Oh my God, I laughed
so hard when Nathan as as Albertcomes to terms with trying to

(01:16:56):
pass a straight, he puts on the suit and then you have this
great silent moment where he's trying to sit down.
Like a straight man in the suit.And Armands and Valor just
looking at him just like what what is this?
What is going on? I I laughed.
So I just want to bring up thosethose experiments to Nathan
Lane's talents. Definitely.
And during that scene, they're like pink socks.

(01:17:18):
I'm like, I'm sorry, like it could I, it could.
Work. Any man could rock a pink sock
with a suit like that is not something that immediately
you're going to see and be like.Are you I but I think that's
from I think that's from the lens of today, like honestly,

(01:17:38):
back then, yes, men wear pink now.
And I think that was like more of also like something you saw
in the 2000s too, big ups to Cameron.
But like, it wasn't necessarily something we saw a lot.
And I think because of the homophobia, every little thing

(01:17:59):
was perceived to be quote, UN quote, gay and where like the
everybody was looking for those big things that we're going to
say, oh, that's it. You know?
So I could see it being way moreacceptable now and back then.
I don't think so, yeah. Like now.
Now look at all the straight menin Love is Blind.
They're all either wearing colorful socks or just not
having any socks at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:18:22):
You could have got away with it,yeah.
That scene, I'm going to tell you, it was probably the hardest
scene of the movie for me to watch.
I got so frustrated, I actually just turned it off for a minute
because I was like, this is not fucking funny to me.
And the reason why it wasn't is what Albert says in the scene
when he walks out in the suit. He's like, I've got in the exact

(01:18:43):
same suit and tie and I'm still not good enough.
And that I was like, damn, you brought back my childhood with
that. Yeah, yeah, understandable.
Yeah, that has to be very difficult.
Well, we did it y'all. We finished the movie.
Let's see if there's any more fun facts that we didn't get to.

(01:19:04):
I think we got a good amount. We talked about the movie.
Obviously it takes place in South Beach, but not all of the
movie was filmed in Miami. They a lot of it primarily took
place in the LA and a lot of theexterior shots they got from
Miami Beach. So let's see.

(01:19:26):
So this says I I have follow up questions that I need to Google
because it says in the scene with Gene Hackman when Gene
Hackman is on the ladder he gives the peace sign as a
reference to Richard Nixon. Hackman was on Nixon's enemies
list back in the 70s. What beef did Gene Hackman have
with Richard Nixon I wonder? I'm Googling.

(01:19:47):
Richard Nixon literally had beefwith anybody.
I mean, Nixon was the Trump of his day.
I mean he was a paranoid, power hungry motherfucker.
That's how. Watergate eventually, yeah.
That's how Watergate eventually came to be.
But yeah, no, he just, he had anenemies list and pretty much if
you were Hollywood, if you were of liberal minded, if you were

(01:20:08):
black, I mean you were on his enemies list.
I think the only thing standing in between Nixon being like a
Trump is he didn't. He wasn't charismatic.
I hate to even think that that man is charismatic in any way,
but more than Nixon 100%. And I think the thing that
really killed Nixon was that that election against Kennedy

(01:20:31):
was televised. And so people were comparing
like how beautiful JFK was untilhow ugly Richard Nixon was.
JFK still gets my motor going. I can't believe they have Nixon
out there. Like you didn't put out a shred
of makeup. Oh, I, I wish I was in my Home

(01:20:52):
Office because I, when I went tomy dad was obsessed with the
Kennedys and Camelot and all of that.
So like, it's very near and dearto my heart.
And when I went to Washington, DCI found like this tiny little
felt JFK and I bought it and I just carried it around so
proudly everywhere I went. And he like is very proudly
displayed in my office because I'm like JFKI.

(01:21:16):
Feel like every white grandma got a JFK in their kitchen and
every black that grandma got a Martin Luther King.
Yeah, and Obama and theirs. You know it.
You know it. Well, before we dive into our
Today ratings, why don't you tell everybody where they can
find your podcast? The delicious recap on social.

(01:21:37):
Yeah, on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, threads, Blue Sky.
Just search the delicious recap.You'll see Steve Urkel, you'll
see the Living single cast, you'll see Fresh Prince, you'll
see that amazing photo that AJ put up.
And that'll be us. So come find us.
And we love to have you join thethe cult, if you will, the good

(01:21:58):
guy, the good guy at Gold you. Want to join the Church of
Blockbuster? Head over to No more late Fees
on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube and Threads.
And AJ, we'll start with you. What is your today rating of the
Birdcage? My Today rating is a one day
rental. That movie's going back an hour

(01:22:20):
after I leave the store with it.Jeez.
John. Great comedic moments,
definitely some problematic stuff.
God I would say maybe. Is it possible to give it like a
three day rental? No two days or five days.

(01:22:45):
I'm going to say 5 day Rental. It's not my favorite movie but I
would definitely watch it again.Jackie OK, so we didn't really,
we talked about it a little bit,but Hank Azaria's performance in
this movie I just absolutely adore.
I love that he put thought into his character.

(01:23:06):
He did research, he consulted the community.
It seems like he in in I just all those little moments, the
pair and the the shoes make me fall down hit come on, Gloria as
he takes the cassette out of theboom box.
Like all of those little momentsare so funny and just very small

(01:23:27):
and compared because you're up against Robin Williams and
you're up against Nathan Lane and those are very big
performances. And I just think for that reason
and just to watch Hank Azaria asAgador, I would do a wood buy.
I think that this is a gay moviefor straight people.
Yes, it is. Yeah, unfortunately I.

(01:23:54):
Haven't known how. To put that in Word.
Oh my God, yeah, it is. So if if you look back at, you
know, historically what this movie did, it opened doors.
So I I definitely give it props.The fact that you know, you have
Robin Williams in this movie, itautomatically makes it a classic
because he did. Again, I yes, both him and

(01:24:18):
Nathan Lane played these roles over the top.
But when I look at some of the gay characteristics in other
media and film it, yes, it's over the top.
But I do think that they did it respectfully and the the fact
that we are watching this movie how many years, 20 plus years
later and it's still so, yeah, almost 30 years and it's still

(01:24:41):
so relevant to today. Yes, speaks volumes.
I think it would have been way better if we got actual an
actual gay cast playing these roles before the time.
I think it's like a time cast capsule and it made it kind of
like palatable for straight people who had no idea about

(01:25:08):
this world. So I still would stay with the
five day rental because there are so many moments that make me
laugh. But I love that I can look back
on this and say, oh, we have done so much better in in some
of our Movies Now. I want to get a full interview
of Nathan talking about his thoughts on the Burr cage then
versus now. I mean because he talks about it

(01:25:31):
briefly in interviews and he seems to just have appreciation
and fond memories for it. But him being the, I think, the
only gay person in the cast, it would be interesting to see his
thoughts about how it holds up today.
So I don't. Know and.
Conversation. And to Danielle's point, like a
gay movie for straight people compounded with Robin Williams

(01:25:53):
is always over the top. So that added to the
palatability of his character. But because you could kind of be
like, oh, that's just Robin being Robin at some level.
Yeah, as well. On that topic, I'm sorry, is
Brokeback Mountain a gay movie for straight people?
I don't know, I just. I'm just going to tell you the
truth. Brokeback Mountain is a gay

(01:26:14):
movie for gay people. It's a very inappropriate
things, but I challenge any gay person who sees this tell me you
have not gone camping and done exactly what happened at that
scene. Well, it's literally a trend on
TikTok right now talking about different movies and TV shows

(01:26:35):
about. I think there's a new show
that's out on Amazon and they they were saying that it's a gay
TV show for straight people. And so people have been like
breaking down different movies and TV shows and saying what
they think it is. I feel like Will and Grace might
be a gay TV show for straight people.
I think that there was somethingabout that show that was
palatable for straight people. Yeah, somebody actually did call

(01:26:59):
out that show and they said like, it's kind of a mix at
times, but it's definitely a gayshow for straight people.
And The L Word is definitely a gay show for gay gay people.
I love the L word. I'm just going to tell y'all if
you have not seen the L word, watch it.
It's. Mess.
It's so much mess in that show. I've got to watch it, it's on my

(01:27:22):
list. Well, if you have opinions about
the Birdcage or anything we discussed today or in any of our
previous episodes, hit us up at our quick drop, 909-601-6653.
Twat us at the twitters, hem us at the threads, Butterfly in the
Sky, A Blue Sky and you can be featured on a future episode.

(01:27:42):
And join us next week as we closeout Pride Month with Hedwig
and the Angry Inch. And AJ and John, it has been an
absolute pleasure. We are so happy that you joined
us and brought all of your insights and commentary, and we
can't wait for you to join us again.
Yeah. Thank you.

(01:28:03):
We would love to be on again. Thank you so much.
Yes, thank you. This was so much fun.
And as always, be kind and rewind.