August 21, 2025 • 27 mins
What really makes customer service stick—not just as a business function, but as a transformative and human-centered experience—even in an era dominated by AI and automation?
That’s the burning question I dig into with my guest on this episode of the Delighted Customers podcast. If you’ve ever wondered why some organizations continually miss the mark (even with technology at their fingertips), or why change management feels like an endless uphill battle, this conversation is for you. More than ever, your customers expect seamless, empathetic experiences—and getting it wrong can cost you not just customers, but also your reputation and bottom line.
You should listen to Nick Glimsdahl because he’s not only spent years on the front lines of customer experience and contact center management, but he’s also channeled those lessons into his compelling new book, The Heart of Service. Nick brings practical wisdom, powerful stories, and tried-and-true strategies to the table. He knows the pain points, understands the evolution of customer expectations, and knows how to drive meaningful change—while keeping the “heart” front and center.
Here are three pressing questions Nick answers in our conversation:
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What are the hidden challenges (and necessary steps) when trying to transform a broken customer service culture from the inside out?
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How can organizations balance technology, such as AI, with the need to stay truly human and deliver standout customer experiences?
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What are the most common missteps leaders make when implementing new service solutions, and how can you avoid falling into those traps?
Tune in now and find out why your strategy—and your empathy—both matter more than ever. Subscribe to the Delighted Customers podcast on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, or listen on any of your favorite podcast platforms. Don’t miss an episode!
Meet Nick Glimsdahl
Nick Glimsdahl is an industry leader in customer experience and contact center transformation, and the author of the new book, The Heart of Service. With over eight years in the world of contact centers, Nick has witnessed firsthand the rapid evolution—and common pitfalls—of service delivery in both technology-driven and human-driven environments. As a consultant at VDS, he’s helped numerous organizations assess, reimagine, and implement successful customer experience strategies by putting people and outcomes first.
Nick is also a seasoned podcaster and storyteller, using his platform and expertise to surface the real, behind-the-scenes challenges frontline teams and leaders face. He’s passionate about not only improving customer metrics like retention, employee morale, and NPS, but also championing the human side of service—helping organizations move beyond “marketecture” and truly listen to both customers and employees.
Want to connect with Nick? Find him on LinkedIn.
References from this Episode
Listen and subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, or search for “Delighted Customers” on your favorite podcast platform!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Well, today on the Delighted Customers podcast, I am very
excited to introduce my guest, Nick Glimsdahl. Nick,
welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Mark. It's been a pleasure being
on your podcast, and you're crushing it with over a million
downloads, so keep the success going. Well, that means a lot coming from
you, who's a fellow podcaster and been doing it way longer than me.
(00:22):
In fact, we met in the halls of the
conference center at Michigan State University at a conference they had several years
ago and. And we were setting up our podcast equipment. Me
less eloquently than you were because I was
extremely clumsy and really had no clue how I was going to do a remote
podcast. But that's where we met. That is
(00:43):
exactly where we met. And you. You had a method to the madness.
There was a lot going on there. But you
interviewed a lot of people that. At that. Those three.
Three or so days. I am really humbled by the people who can
do that all the time on the fly like that. That is just such an
incredible gift. So let me. Let me introduce you to
(01:05):
our audience. You have been in the world of customer experience,
really in the world specific to Contact center management
for a number of years and have seen it
evolve over that time. And you have most
recently come out with a book with a fantastic
title, the Heart of Service. And I don't know how you. That name wasn't
(01:27):
already taken. When I first
thought of it. As I was writing the book, I didn't have a title to
begin with, and throughout the book, it started talking about heart and. And
keeping the human part of that conversation when it comes to AI it just
popped in my head. The Heart of Service. There are other. There are other titles
that popped in my head as well that did not make the cut because it
(01:49):
didn't have. It was already taken, but for some reason, this one
was not taken. It was the luck of the draw, I suppose. Yeah. Well, it's
a great. It's a great title, Nick. And I was gonna ask you what
the white space was for writing the book. Yeah, I think that
there's a ton of books out there. And I tried not to be like everybody
else, for one. I just wanted it to be a story. And that took a
(02:09):
little bit of a challenge and creative channel for me, which I enjoy
writing. I never really have written a story before
outside of maybe in school, which I did not enjoy,
but I wanted to think of the expertise that I had and the
people that I have actually interviewed and saying, like, how do I take the
knowledge, all of that, and potentially turn it into a story. And,
(02:32):
you know, I think a lot of people, including, you know, successful
people that have written books on customer service and customer
experience, eight reasons to be like this and how to be more like Amazon and
how to do this and that. And at the end of the day I was
just like, you know what, there's a lot of. There's not necessarily a story
for one in customer service and customer experience. But number two,
(02:54):
it doesn't show the story of the people
that are in it, like the behind the scenes, the
marketeering. And I wanted to have that be part of the
story because I hear it for the last eight or so years
of people just struggling in the muck and the mire
of customer service. And I wanted that to kind of
(03:16):
shine through this story. I love that you did that because I think it
makes it way more sticky and relatable to people. I
remember when I was first recommended to read
Silos Politics and Turf wars from Pat Leccione and
then Five Dysfunctions of Team and he, gosh, he wrote a whole bunch of
fables. And you almost look forward to reading them because
(03:38):
you can. First of all, they're easy reads or quick reads, but there's some
meaningful, purposeful messaging that comes through
that he kind of summarizes at the end for you into
the story. But you get to read the story. So I think it makes it
more sticky. What was your thinking on that? Yeah, I mean,
(03:58):
I struggle paying attention for a long time and reading
textbook type style books, but, you know,
Kendra hall is another one that is an amazing
storyteller. I think Patrick Lencioni is amazing as well,
but I gravitate more towards the storytelling aspect
and hopefully that came across. So tell
(04:19):
me about what you've seen. I mentioned earlier about the
evolution because you've been around call centers for a while now. How long
have you been around call centers? And what would you say?
What did you notice in terms of its evolution?
That's a podcast in that question. So eight years is
how long I've been in it and it's crazy. I feel like it's
(04:42):
changed more in the last eight years than it has in the last 20. So
many ways, obviously all of the channels are coming together. The
AI is just a part of that story and that's only going to get more
and more complex from the back end side of the business.
Bringing in knowledge bases, integrating it into the system
of your choice to create the best experience. I think that
(05:03):
there's been so Many bad experiences that I've
felt personally. For an example, I'm just trying to think of one. My
previous house. When I bought it, about six months later, the door
handle on the front door of the screen door fell off. And I was like,
oh boy. Like, what are we gonna do here? I couldn't find the name of
it. I opened the door and found out who the brand was.
(05:23):
I was texting the brand back and forth and I said, they said, hey, can
you send me a picture? And I was like, I didn't buy it here. I
just, I came with the house and they're like, great. I have this
exact model. I know which one you want and this is
what you need. I was like, great. Like, how do we do this? Can I
pay you over the phone or can I pay you via text? And they're like,
(05:43):
no, you have to actually call our 1-800number. I can't transfer you in.
I can't do it with any contacts. You have to actually get back in line.
And I was like, man, that is the worst experience possible for a
consumer. For one. The thing that we can't get more of is our time.
But it's also because all of that 15 minute conversation that
I was having back and forth in the middle of dinner and putting the kids
(06:05):
to bed, I was now having to call the next morning to
deal with that. And I think that context of that conversation is important. You know,
I think just the expectation, I think the
COVID really escalated that. I mean, I think of just
before COVID I wouldn't think of for one, driving up to
the edge of the. The grocery, texting the grocery store that
(06:28):
I'm here and having a delivery in the back of my vehicle and keep on
moving or have it being delivered to my house. And now every
single year, every single quarter, potentially every month, my
expectation is higher than it's ever been. Yeah, that,
that is so true. It's why I can't get a spot anywhere near the
Walmart front door.
(06:49):
Right. They have just reserved all these because it's probably
a good way to get repeat and loyal customers is to be able
to do all the shopping for them. We're so used to shopping with the click.
So the call center is often thought of as a pulse
of the organization. I always love the quote
(07:11):
from someone from Comcast of all places in their
customer experience area who said customer service
happens when the experience is broken. Hmm. What's
your reaction to that? It gives me pause to that. I hear what
they're saying, but that's not the whole story. Right. Like, I think
the customer service in the contact center should be just as much
(07:33):
proactive on the front of the sale as it is after
signature. And so your job is to create this seamless
experience from. From the beginning to the end of that
customer experience. And that customer experience, if, let's say, somebody's buying
insurance, what does that process look like? Before
they ever pick the phone up and they're downloading a white paper or
(07:55):
they put their name into some form, and you contact them
within 30 seconds, and you answer all the questions on that,
on the channel of their choice, and it goes through that journey, and then they
have insurance with you for 27 years. That is the customer
journey. And I think the customer service is now
part of all of that, from the front end to the back.
(08:16):
And so I would. I would challenge that person. And I've heard that
before, but I would say that that's also part of the journey. I think that
customer experience is part of customer service. Well, Nick,
speaking of customer service, let's dive into the book a little bit
without giving us any spoilers away. Yeah.
Tell us about the main characters of the book and what the struggle they're dealing
(08:39):
with. Yeah. So I think that the biggest one is Chloe Chen. So Chloe
Chen is the main character of the book. And at the very
beginning, she doesn't have a whole lot of experience. And it kind of goes through,
I think it's what, eight years of the journey of this company called Careleo.
And it's a large company, but she looks around the organization
and just sees how broken it is. And the customer retention
(09:01):
is not as high as they want it to be. The employee
attrition is way too high. The morale is there.
The CSAT and NPS and all the other metrics are
tanking. And she's looking around the competition, and they're blowing them out of the
water. And she's like, what? There's got to be a better way. Right? And so
she looks at something as simple as her com or
(09:23):
her father's restaurant and notices that they're creating a
better experience with no technology than a
massive organization is delivering with technology. And so
she starts writing down this kind of these notes
on ways to improve the experience, and she doesn't really know how, and she doesn't
know the right technology, but she starts listing that's. She brings it to the
(09:45):
front end of the. Of the employees, and she's like, listen, I don't. I'm not
here to tell you and get, get buy in immediately, but I'm here to just
listen. And then she starts building this platform and she meets with
her, her direct boss. And then eventually she gets a meeting
with the CEO and she has to find a way to get buy in with
the CEO and then from there she has to start building a team and
(10:06):
convincing the team, while this is a good idea, because a pilot in
AI has already failed once. And so how do you. This isn't going to fail
again. And so you're going through this process and there's all sorts of
naysayers that come through the process and say this isn't going to work
and you're just trying to take my job and I'm tired of this
process and I'm not going to be part of it. And so it's a pretty
(10:27):
big journey and it was a big uplift, but it was,
there's, there's a lot to that story. Well, I love, I love the scenario.
It's, it's true in many ways, although there's many restaurants that
don't work out, but if she found one that was doing some things right, her
dad's restaurant, then great way to learn and use those
concepts and theories to run a call center or at least build the principles
(10:49):
around it. I was going to ask you, when you think about the model
that you used and you think about the, the book itself as you, as you
wrote it, what were some things that kind of unraveled as
you were writing it that you didn't know about until you started
writing it? I didn't realize that it was going to be
also focused on change management. I was going to think of
(11:11):
ways that the system broken, the legacy
mindset, getting executive buy in, but the process
and the people through the journey, I didn't expect me to go
into that much detail and bringing all of these separate
characters in, bringing a consultant in from that.
The CEO recommends that we won't spoil. But
(11:32):
there's a lot to that process that I didn't really.
The more I was trying to build some of the character development, the more it's
like I gotta start bringing individual characters and their personal stories
into the why of this journey.
So share with us, if you wouldn't mind, and illustrate maybe one of the
characters that was an antagonist to Chloe in her
(11:55):
journey. Ooh. So
Mr. Blackwell, who is the CEO, is kind of an antagonist at the
beginning. He threw a few nasty grams at the beginning.
There's not saying it was super bad, but there was
trying to think of There was a couple, but there was some of the C
suite really drilled her because she had to present to the C suite as well.
(12:17):
So I won't name a specific character, but I would say the C suite in
general really let her and her team have it and kind of
drilled them like a lot of the C suite would. Right. And she
had to stand up for herself with the right data to present that
information, to move forward. And when things don't go as planned,
they had to talk to him again. And so there was a couple there. I
(12:39):
think the front line had a voice as well. There was a
lady specifically that said, I've been part of the last
AI pilot and it botched. What makes you think that this
is going to be a successful one? So she had to stand up to that
one as well. Yeah, I love that. And that's very much a
reality of what you're dealing with is people who are burn victims. Yeah. And you
(13:01):
got CEOs. And quite frankly, the CEO wants his or her
lieutenants to be questioning and challenging early
on to, to make sure that, you know, the risk is
mitigated. What were some effective strategies that Chloe used
to help win the day? To win the day? She.
She didn't just come with emotion. She came with emotion
(13:23):
and results. She came with emotion and data as she came with
emotion and the team. And I think that
helped, I think, with some of the conversations. So
one of a chapter or two, she had to actually listen to the
vendors pitch their story on why they think they are the right fit
for their. For the outcomes that they're hoping to achieve. And she.
(13:45):
She let them pitch their story, but then she brought the right
team to have their case as well. I think bringing in
that frontline also was helpful. I think that's a challenge just in the
marketplaces, the leadership tends to make a decision with.
Without actually listening to what the customer wants and. Or what the front line
is pain points are. And so when they make that present presentation
(14:08):
and it goes live, a lot of times that front line's like,
well, for one, we didn't ask for this. For two, you didn't get our input.
And for three, we know everything that the customer is complaining about
and you just didn't care. Right. And I think that Chloe
asked all. Of those just to affirm what you're saying. Nick,
when I worked at the bank I worked at, there was a
(14:30):
proposal in for a long time to get some sort of
core operating system besides the one that the bank
leaned on to help pull together the call center data
and information from the branch network and commercial lenders,
etc. And it did not get traction. It kept
getting visited and quite question, but it never got traction until
(14:53):
we asked, we did something called the executive listening. And it was
part of the year of empathy we had. And we brought the executives into the
call center, had them put on a headset, listen in on the calls. What they
witnessed was not only the kinds of calls the customers
were calling in about, but the challenge that the frontline
contact agents had with trying to respond.
(15:16):
Some of the questions were were guaranteed they couldn't respond on the
first call, guaranteed. Cause they'd have to wait for a call back from somebody
else. And so when they got to see this firsthand, they
realized the pain not only the customers were going through, but the employees were
going through. And seven different systems that were
unbundled, not connected to each other, that required so much
(15:38):
additional work and so much stress and anxiety for the front
line. So I don't know if that's been your experience.
You know, ultimately that got them to make a decision rather quickly. I would say
within the next three months they made a $3 million decision
on a salesforce.com application that ended up pulling, you
know, one middle middleware into another, into this integrated
(16:00):
system. So we had a 360 degree view of the customer.
Yeah, yeah. And I'd say that that is key. And one thing that I
like to do too, if the organization that we work with lets
us, is we'll do a three day assessment or a week long
assessment and interview the front line, the managers, the leaders
and then the people that are actually making the decision and then potentially even the
(16:22):
customers to identify what is actually broken. Before you start talking
about technology, I think everybody starts at the technology and works backwards to the
problem instead of the other way around. Yeah.
And I failed to mention that you work at vds and you're a
consultant. So you get to see a variety of all these different
companies and all these different problems. So you have the benefit of all these
(16:45):
different experiences. Yeah, it's been fun. I think
I tried to take little, little nuggets of different
prospects or clients that I've worked with in the past and saying, hey,
how would they approach this scenario and what questions would
they have asked in this, in this process? I've had all sorts of
conversations over the years that I've been at vds and
(17:08):
it gave me plenty of plenty of
content to create around Nick. In all those conversations,
what do you see as some of the missteps that leaders make when it
comes to running a successful contact center. Yeah, I'd say that
they do a few things. One is when it comes to AI,
they try to just turn AI for AI sake. Right.
(17:31):
We talked a little bit about pre recording is, is you turn on a
chatbot or you turn on something like that. Like what, what does a
chatbot mean and what's the outcome you're hoping to achieve? And the same thing is
true with, with anything they people are not focused on the outcome, they're
focused on the task. And I think that's a challenge in, in the
marketplace I'd say for two the manufacturers
(17:53):
don't help them solve a problem. They are
selling features and functionality and trying to do it as
quick as possible to move on to the next round and it's the quick
close and then just keep on, keep on running. I would say that
organizations or even partners need to be more strategic in the
conversations and asking the right questions and helping them
(18:15):
see what's behind the curtain and taking that
second, third and fourth look of what's spending time with
them ultimately understanding what their needs are and then asking
questions that, that you typically wouldn't ask because
everybody looks pretty from a marketeering perspective, a one line
or a one page document or a really pretty
(18:38):
20 minute demo. But if you get behind the scenes, you look at the
admin and the user experience and spend time and
digging, that's a challenge. I would say that there's also people that
over automate. Right. They tend to go to
too much and then they don't have the right knowledge base or they don't have
the right integration working and they didn't really think of that holistic picture
(19:00):
to solve that customer experience or to drive efficiencies or to,
to meet outcomes. And so those are just the, the ones that are
top of mind. Well, can you, can you give me an example or give
us an example of a question that's not ordinarily asked in these
kind of conversations when you're setting up a new customer and you're probing
for what they currently have in place or
(19:23):
maybe even what their goals are. Yeah, it's, it really
depends on the situation. And I think that when I was
fully admitted, when I first got into the, into the business, I would ask very
superficial questions because I didn't know the questions that
you should be asking. And I think what you should do is just you can
ask that first level of questions but you know, they don't add a whole lot
(19:45):
of value but the next level of questions are like what are
you working on today? Or that, that you, you wish you
wouldn't. Right. And then let's work backwards to that or what's the
fully loaded cost of that agent if you. Because I think people
tend to get cautious about AI and I think you should, but you
have to make sure that aligns with the outcome. But you also think of
(20:07):
AI is going to be, it's a big one time cost and then there's a
reoccurring cost depending on what that rate is. But
they're not thinking about the lost opportunity costs, they're not thinking
of the customer lifetime value, they're not thinking of the loaded agent costs that are
answering those phone calls. And so I think what you should be thinking of is
what are the outcomes you're hoping to achieve
(20:30):
and what's changed in your guys industry and how would you
differentiate in the marketplace if you could. Right.
And then slowly start pulling away from that to make, to
ask harder questions. But most people just say
hey, I have this amazing technology, do you want it? And I can,
I can have it turned on in two weeks if you want to. And I
(20:52):
could be the cheapest cost. But I think what people, the
challenge that I see is that people think of the lowest cost. The
lowest price means the lowest cost. And that's not actually
true because typically a minimal viable
product that gets turned on, it's actually going to be more expensive for your business
than that cost that you're paying that you would have paid with the
(21:14):
higher tier. And the stakes are probably higher
than most people realize when it comes to this whole thing.
How would you describe the stakes? So say that question one more time.
In terms of the risk and the stakes that
leadership should be concerned about when it comes to this whole topic and
(21:35):
balancing human interaction, context,
interaction, having a good long term strategy. What are the
stakes? Well what, what's at risk is your customers
can go to any other competitor as easy as that next renewal.
And a lot of times there's outs of those renewals. And like we
talked about the very beginning of this episode is the expectations are higher than
(21:57):
ever. In the past you would buy a specific laundry
soap because probably your parents bought a specific laundry soap and you
just decided to follow suit. And same with insurance and same with
things that you know, you pay for for a long time. Now
that's not the case. What's the average that if somebody has one or
two bad experiences with your company, they will go to the competitor
(22:19):
and at the equal or same cost. And people actually pay more
for your service for a, at a higher price. And so
if that's the case, you, you're, you're leaving money on the table and
you're losing money on the back end because the company, your competitors or your,
your customers are not staying with you for the long run. Yeah. And the
acquisition cost to replace that customer and the bad word of mouth and.
(22:41):
Yeah. All these other things. So that's a big deal. Well, this has
been a great conversation. The Heart of
Service is the name of the book. And Nick, I want to ask you one
more question before we land the plane. Here it is. What delights
you as a customer? Yeah, I would say what delights me as a customer is
it's not, it's not hard. Right. It's. I
(23:04):
want, I want to be, I want people to know who I am
when I'm interacting with them, if I have to authenticate or not. And I want
them to know if I've called back in the
past. I want people to do it with a smile, whether they can help me
or not in that first interaction. And
I just want them to care. Right. I think the
(23:26):
importance of caring isn't, isn't difficult.
You need to have the knowledge and expertise I think is fine. But
if the care is behind the coordination of that
experience, I'm going to be more willing to accept a
mistake or when my Internet goes out on
accident because I didn't renew my credit card or I
(23:48):
didn't give them a new credit card, which just happened last week. But it's how
you respond to the experience when it breaks. And a lot
of times people, individuals will, before they
get out on a call, they'll listen. I always have this analogy that you
listen to the Rocky soundtrack, do the 20 push ups and get ready to
tear the customer service rep a new one. And in reality, that person on
(24:10):
the other end is going through a lot too. Right.
And I never think of that. At least I didn't before
I came into customer service. I'd always think of like, this
person's going to ruin my day. I'm already mad and I'm
about to ruin their day too. And now I just have a little bit more
empathy for them. And I'm like, like they're bringing their whole life
(24:33):
to the role that, that, that they're in. And they're, yes, they're
getting paid for and this is their job. Maybe they're not, not their career, but
why should I rip them a new one when I can also have a good
experience. And I'd say that bring it full circle. Part of the
delight is how I approach that experience, too, because there's a lot of
times when I would approach the experience and just be like, hey, Mark,
(24:55):
thanks. Thanks for your time. How are you doing today? And just kind of break
the mold and hear what they're. When I'm not. I'm not having a great day.
Oh yeah, what's going on? And you take five seconds to know the person or
if they can't help you, just be like, you know what? Sounds like you did
everything you could. Thanks so much. Is there anything else that you could potentially
do that to make this a better experience? And you're just like enjoying the process.
(25:16):
And I think the delight comes from both sides. Yeah. Some schooling for
us on the consumer side. Yes. Nick, thank you so much
for being a guest on the Delighted Customers Show. Again, the book,
the Heart of Service. Nick Limsdahl. Thanks again, Nick. Thanks so
much, Mark.
Well, today on the Delighted Customers podcast, I am very
excited to introduce my guest, Nick Glimsdahl. Nick,
welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Mark. It's been a pleasure being
on your podcast, and you're crushing it with over a million
downloads, so keep the success going. Well, that means a lot coming from
you, who's a fellow podcaster and been doing it way longer than me.
(00:22):
In fact, we met in the halls of the
conference center at Michigan State University at a conference they had several years
ago and. And we were setting up our podcast equipment. Me
less eloquently than you were because I was
extremely clumsy and really had no clue how I was going to do a remote
podcast. But that's where we met. That is
(00:43):
exactly where we met. And you. You had a method to the madness.
There was a lot going on there. But you
interviewed a lot of people that. At that. Those three.
Three or so days. I am really humbled by the people who can
do that all the time on the fly like that. That is just such an
incredible gift. So let me. Let me introduce you to
(01:05):
our audience. You have been in the world of customer experience,
really in the world specific to Contact center management
for a number of years and have seen it
evolve over that time. And you have most
recently come out with a book with a fantastic
title, the Heart of Service. And I don't know how you. That name wasn't
(01:27):
already taken. When I first
thought of it. As I was writing the book, I didn't have a title to
begin with, and throughout the book, it started talking about heart and. And
keeping the human part of that conversation when it comes to AI it just
popped in my head. The Heart of Service. There are other. There are other titles
that popped in my head as well that did not make the cut because it
(01:49):
didn't have. It was already taken, but for some reason, this one
was not taken. It was the luck of the draw, I suppose. Yeah. Well, it's
a great. It's a great title, Nick. And I was gonna ask you what
the white space was for writing the book. Yeah, I think that
there's a ton of books out there. And I tried not to be like everybody
else, for one. I just wanted it to be a story. And that took a
(02:09):
little bit of a challenge and creative channel for me, which I enjoy
writing. I never really have written a story before
outside of maybe in school, which I did not enjoy,
but I wanted to think of the expertise that I had and the
people that I have actually interviewed and saying, like, how do I take the
knowledge, all of that, and potentially turn it into a story. And,
(02:32):
you know, I think a lot of people, including, you know, successful
people that have written books on customer service and customer
experience, eight reasons to be like this and how to be more like Amazon and
how to do this and that. And at the end of the day I was
just like, you know what, there's a lot of. There's not necessarily a story
for one in customer service and customer experience. But number two,
(02:54):
it doesn't show the story of the people
that are in it, like the behind the scenes, the
marketeering. And I wanted to have that be part of the
story because I hear it for the last eight or so years
of people just struggling in the muck and the mire
of customer service. And I wanted that to kind of
(03:16):
shine through this story. I love that you did that because I think it
makes it way more sticky and relatable to people. I
remember when I was first recommended to read
Silos Politics and Turf wars from Pat Leccione and
then Five Dysfunctions of Team and he, gosh, he wrote a whole bunch of
fables. And you almost look forward to reading them because
(03:38):
you can. First of all, they're easy reads or quick reads, but there's some
meaningful, purposeful messaging that comes through
that he kind of summarizes at the end for you into
the story. But you get to read the story. So I think it makes it
more sticky. What was your thinking on that? Yeah, I mean,
(03:58):
I struggle paying attention for a long time and reading
textbook type style books, but, you know,
Kendra hall is another one that is an amazing
storyteller. I think Patrick Lencioni is amazing as well,
but I gravitate more towards the storytelling aspect
and hopefully that came across. So tell
(04:19):
me about what you've seen. I mentioned earlier about the
evolution because you've been around call centers for a while now. How long
have you been around call centers? And what would you say?
What did you notice in terms of its evolution?
That's a podcast in that question. So eight years is
how long I've been in it and it's crazy. I feel like it's
(04:42):
changed more in the last eight years than it has in the last 20. So
many ways, obviously all of the channels are coming together. The
AI is just a part of that story and that's only going to get more
and more complex from the back end side of the business.
Bringing in knowledge bases, integrating it into the system
of your choice to create the best experience. I think that
(05:03):
there's been so Many bad experiences that I've
felt personally. For an example, I'm just trying to think of one. My
previous house. When I bought it, about six months later, the door
handle on the front door of the screen door fell off. And I was like,
oh boy. Like, what are we gonna do here? I couldn't find the name of
it. I opened the door and found out who the brand was.
(05:23):
I was texting the brand back and forth and I said, they said, hey, can
you send me a picture? And I was like, I didn't buy it here. I
just, I came with the house and they're like, great. I have this
exact model. I know which one you want and this is
what you need. I was like, great. Like, how do we do this? Can I
pay you over the phone or can I pay you via text? And they're like,
(05:43):
no, you have to actually call our 1-800number. I can't transfer you in.
I can't do it with any contacts. You have to actually get back in line.
And I was like, man, that is the worst experience possible for a
consumer. For one. The thing that we can't get more of is our time.
But it's also because all of that 15 minute conversation that
I was having back and forth in the middle of dinner and putting the kids
(06:05):
to bed, I was now having to call the next morning to
deal with that. And I think that context of that conversation is important. You know,
I think just the expectation, I think the
COVID really escalated that. I mean, I think of just
before COVID I wouldn't think of for one, driving up to
the edge of the. The grocery, texting the grocery store that
(06:28):
I'm here and having a delivery in the back of my vehicle and keep on
moving or have it being delivered to my house. And now every
single year, every single quarter, potentially every month, my
expectation is higher than it's ever been. Yeah, that,
that is so true. It's why I can't get a spot anywhere near the
Walmart front door.
(06:49):
Right. They have just reserved all these because it's probably
a good way to get repeat and loyal customers is to be able
to do all the shopping for them. We're so used to shopping with the click.
So the call center is often thought of as a pulse
of the organization. I always love the quote
(07:11):
from someone from Comcast of all places in their
customer experience area who said customer service
happens when the experience is broken. Hmm. What's
your reaction to that? It gives me pause to that. I hear what
they're saying, but that's not the whole story. Right. Like, I think
the customer service in the contact center should be just as much
(07:33):
proactive on the front of the sale as it is after
signature. And so your job is to create this seamless
experience from. From the beginning to the end of that
customer experience. And that customer experience, if, let's say, somebody's buying
insurance, what does that process look like? Before
they ever pick the phone up and they're downloading a white paper or
(07:55):
they put their name into some form, and you contact them
within 30 seconds, and you answer all the questions on that,
on the channel of their choice, and it goes through that journey, and then they
have insurance with you for 27 years. That is the customer
journey. And I think the customer service is now
part of all of that, from the front end to the back.
(08:16):
And so I would. I would challenge that person. And I've heard that
before, but I would say that that's also part of the journey. I think that
customer experience is part of customer service. Well, Nick,
speaking of customer service, let's dive into the book a little bit
without giving us any spoilers away. Yeah.
Tell us about the main characters of the book and what the struggle they're dealing
(08:39):
with. Yeah. So I think that the biggest one is Chloe Chen. So Chloe
Chen is the main character of the book. And at the very
beginning, she doesn't have a whole lot of experience. And it kind of goes through,
I think it's what, eight years of the journey of this company called Careleo.
And it's a large company, but she looks around the organization
and just sees how broken it is. And the customer retention
(09:01):
is not as high as they want it to be. The employee
attrition is way too high. The morale is there.
The CSAT and NPS and all the other metrics are
tanking. And she's looking around the competition, and they're blowing them out of the
water. And she's like, what? There's got to be a better way. Right? And so
she looks at something as simple as her com or
(09:23):
her father's restaurant and notices that they're creating a
better experience with no technology than a
massive organization is delivering with technology. And so
she starts writing down this kind of these notes
on ways to improve the experience, and she doesn't really know how, and she doesn't
know the right technology, but she starts listing that's. She brings it to the
(09:45):
front end of the. Of the employees, and she's like, listen, I don't. I'm not
here to tell you and get, get buy in immediately, but I'm here to just
listen. And then she starts building this platform and she meets with
her, her direct boss. And then eventually she gets a meeting
with the CEO and she has to find a way to get buy in with
the CEO and then from there she has to start building a team and
(10:06):
convincing the team, while this is a good idea, because a pilot in
AI has already failed once. And so how do you. This isn't going to fail
again. And so you're going through this process and there's all sorts of
naysayers that come through the process and say this isn't going to work
and you're just trying to take my job and I'm tired of this
process and I'm not going to be part of it. And so it's a pretty
(10:27):
big journey and it was a big uplift, but it was,
there's, there's a lot to that story. Well, I love, I love the scenario.
It's, it's true in many ways, although there's many restaurants that
don't work out, but if she found one that was doing some things right, her
dad's restaurant, then great way to learn and use those
concepts and theories to run a call center or at least build the principles
(10:49):
around it. I was going to ask you, when you think about the model
that you used and you think about the, the book itself as you, as you
wrote it, what were some things that kind of unraveled as
you were writing it that you didn't know about until you started
writing it? I didn't realize that it was going to be
also focused on change management. I was going to think of
(11:11):
ways that the system broken, the legacy
mindset, getting executive buy in, but the process
and the people through the journey, I didn't expect me to go
into that much detail and bringing all of these separate
characters in, bringing a consultant in from that.
The CEO recommends that we won't spoil. But
(11:32):
there's a lot to that process that I didn't really.
The more I was trying to build some of the character development, the more it's
like I gotta start bringing individual characters and their personal stories
into the why of this journey.
So share with us, if you wouldn't mind, and illustrate maybe one of the
characters that was an antagonist to Chloe in her
(11:55):
journey. Ooh. So
Mr. Blackwell, who is the CEO, is kind of an antagonist at the
beginning. He threw a few nasty grams at the beginning.
There's not saying it was super bad, but there was
trying to think of There was a couple, but there was some of the C
suite really drilled her because she had to present to the C suite as well.
(12:17):
So I won't name a specific character, but I would say the C suite in
general really let her and her team have it and kind of
drilled them like a lot of the C suite would. Right. And she
had to stand up for herself with the right data to present that
information, to move forward. And when things don't go as planned,
they had to talk to him again. And so there was a couple there. I
(12:39):
think the front line had a voice as well. There was a
lady specifically that said, I've been part of the last
AI pilot and it botched. What makes you think that this
is going to be a successful one? So she had to stand up to that
one as well. Yeah, I love that. And that's very much a
reality of what you're dealing with is people who are burn victims. Yeah. And you
(13:01):
got CEOs. And quite frankly, the CEO wants his or her
lieutenants to be questioning and challenging early
on to, to make sure that, you know, the risk is
mitigated. What were some effective strategies that Chloe used
to help win the day? To win the day? She.
She didn't just come with emotion. She came with emotion
(13:23):
and results. She came with emotion and data as she came with
emotion and the team. And I think that
helped, I think, with some of the conversations. So
one of a chapter or two, she had to actually listen to the
vendors pitch their story on why they think they are the right fit
for their. For the outcomes that they're hoping to achieve. And she.
(13:45):
She let them pitch their story, but then she brought the right
team to have their case as well. I think bringing in
that frontline also was helpful. I think that's a challenge just in the
marketplaces, the leadership tends to make a decision with.
Without actually listening to what the customer wants and. Or what the front line
is pain points are. And so when they make that present presentation
(14:08):
and it goes live, a lot of times that front line's like,
well, for one, we didn't ask for this. For two, you didn't get our input.
And for three, we know everything that the customer is complaining about
and you just didn't care. Right. And I think that Chloe
asked all. Of those just to affirm what you're saying. Nick,
when I worked at the bank I worked at, there was a
(14:30):
proposal in for a long time to get some sort of
core operating system besides the one that the bank
leaned on to help pull together the call center data
and information from the branch network and commercial lenders,
etc. And it did not get traction. It kept
getting visited and quite question, but it never got traction until
(14:53):
we asked, we did something called the executive listening. And it was
part of the year of empathy we had. And we brought the executives into the
call center, had them put on a headset, listen in on the calls. What they
witnessed was not only the kinds of calls the customers
were calling in about, but the challenge that the frontline
contact agents had with trying to respond.
(15:16):
Some of the questions were were guaranteed they couldn't respond on the
first call, guaranteed. Cause they'd have to wait for a call back from somebody
else. And so when they got to see this firsthand, they
realized the pain not only the customers were going through, but the employees were
going through. And seven different systems that were
unbundled, not connected to each other, that required so much
(15:38):
additional work and so much stress and anxiety for the front
line. So I don't know if that's been your experience.
You know, ultimately that got them to make a decision rather quickly. I would say
within the next three months they made a $3 million decision
on a salesforce.com application that ended up pulling, you
know, one middle middleware into another, into this integrated
(16:00):
system. So we had a 360 degree view of the customer.
Yeah, yeah. And I'd say that that is key. And one thing that I
like to do too, if the organization that we work with lets
us, is we'll do a three day assessment or a week long
assessment and interview the front line, the managers, the leaders
and then the people that are actually making the decision and then potentially even the
(16:22):
customers to identify what is actually broken. Before you start talking
about technology, I think everybody starts at the technology and works backwards to the
problem instead of the other way around. Yeah.
And I failed to mention that you work at vds and you're a
consultant. So you get to see a variety of all these different
companies and all these different problems. So you have the benefit of all these
(16:45):
different experiences. Yeah, it's been fun. I think
I tried to take little, little nuggets of different
prospects or clients that I've worked with in the past and saying, hey,
how would they approach this scenario and what questions would
they have asked in this, in this process? I've had all sorts of
conversations over the years that I've been at vds and
(17:08):
it gave me plenty of plenty of
content to create around Nick. In all those conversations,
what do you see as some of the missteps that leaders make when it
comes to running a successful contact center. Yeah, I'd say that
they do a few things. One is when it comes to AI,
they try to just turn AI for AI sake. Right.
(17:31):
We talked a little bit about pre recording is, is you turn on a
chatbot or you turn on something like that. Like what, what does a
chatbot mean and what's the outcome you're hoping to achieve? And the same thing is
true with, with anything they people are not focused on the outcome, they're
focused on the task. And I think that's a challenge in, in the
marketplace I'd say for two the manufacturers
(17:53):
don't help them solve a problem. They are
selling features and functionality and trying to do it as
quick as possible to move on to the next round and it's the quick
close and then just keep on, keep on running. I would say that
organizations or even partners need to be more strategic in the
conversations and asking the right questions and helping them
(18:15):
see what's behind the curtain and taking that
second, third and fourth look of what's spending time with
them ultimately understanding what their needs are and then asking
questions that, that you typically wouldn't ask because
everybody looks pretty from a marketeering perspective, a one line
or a one page document or a really pretty
(18:38):
20 minute demo. But if you get behind the scenes, you look at the
admin and the user experience and spend time and
digging, that's a challenge. I would say that there's also people that
over automate. Right. They tend to go to
too much and then they don't have the right knowledge base or they don't have
the right integration working and they didn't really think of that holistic picture
(19:00):
to solve that customer experience or to drive efficiencies or to,
to meet outcomes. And so those are just the, the ones that are
top of mind. Well, can you, can you give me an example or give
us an example of a question that's not ordinarily asked in these
kind of conversations when you're setting up a new customer and you're probing
for what they currently have in place or
(19:23):
maybe even what their goals are. Yeah, it's, it really
depends on the situation. And I think that when I was
fully admitted, when I first got into the, into the business, I would ask very
superficial questions because I didn't know the questions that
you should be asking. And I think what you should do is just you can
ask that first level of questions but you know, they don't add a whole lot
(19:45):
of value but the next level of questions are like what are
you working on today? Or that, that you, you wish you
wouldn't. Right. And then let's work backwards to that or what's the
fully loaded cost of that agent if you. Because I think people
tend to get cautious about AI and I think you should, but you
have to make sure that aligns with the outcome. But you also think of
(20:07):
AI is going to be, it's a big one time cost and then there's a
reoccurring cost depending on what that rate is. But
they're not thinking about the lost opportunity costs, they're not thinking
of the customer lifetime value, they're not thinking of the loaded agent costs that are
answering those phone calls. And so I think what you should be thinking of is
what are the outcomes you're hoping to achieve
(20:30):
and what's changed in your guys industry and how would you
differentiate in the marketplace if you could. Right.
And then slowly start pulling away from that to make, to
ask harder questions. But most people just say
hey, I have this amazing technology, do you want it? And I can,
I can have it turned on in two weeks if you want to. And I
(20:52):
could be the cheapest cost. But I think what people, the
challenge that I see is that people think of the lowest cost. The
lowest price means the lowest cost. And that's not actually
true because typically a minimal viable
product that gets turned on, it's actually going to be more expensive for your business
than that cost that you're paying that you would have paid with the
(21:14):
higher tier. And the stakes are probably higher
than most people realize when it comes to this whole thing.
How would you describe the stakes? So say that question one more time.
In terms of the risk and the stakes that
leadership should be concerned about when it comes to this whole topic and
(21:35):
balancing human interaction, context,
interaction, having a good long term strategy. What are the
stakes? Well what, what's at risk is your customers
can go to any other competitor as easy as that next renewal.
And a lot of times there's outs of those renewals. And like we
talked about the very beginning of this episode is the expectations are higher than
(21:57):
ever. In the past you would buy a specific laundry
soap because probably your parents bought a specific laundry soap and you
just decided to follow suit. And same with insurance and same with
things that you know, you pay for for a long time. Now
that's not the case. What's the average that if somebody has one or
two bad experiences with your company, they will go to the competitor
(22:19):
and at the equal or same cost. And people actually pay more
for your service for a, at a higher price. And so
if that's the case, you, you're, you're leaving money on the table and
you're losing money on the back end because the company, your competitors or your,
your customers are not staying with you for the long run. Yeah. And the
acquisition cost to replace that customer and the bad word of mouth and.
(22:41):
Yeah. All these other things. So that's a big deal. Well, this has
been a great conversation. The Heart of
Service is the name of the book. And Nick, I want to ask you one
more question before we land the plane. Here it is. What delights
you as a customer? Yeah, I would say what delights me as a customer is
it's not, it's not hard. Right. It's. I
(23:04):
want, I want to be, I want people to know who I am
when I'm interacting with them, if I have to authenticate or not. And I want
them to know if I've called back in the
past. I want people to do it with a smile, whether they can help me
or not in that first interaction. And
I just want them to care. Right. I think the
(23:26):
importance of caring isn't, isn't difficult.
You need to have the knowledge and expertise I think is fine. But
if the care is behind the coordination of that
experience, I'm going to be more willing to accept a
mistake or when my Internet goes out on
accident because I didn't renew my credit card or I
(23:48):
didn't give them a new credit card, which just happened last week. But it's how
you respond to the experience when it breaks. And a lot
of times people, individuals will, before they
get out on a call, they'll listen. I always have this analogy that you
listen to the Rocky soundtrack, do the 20 push ups and get ready to
tear the customer service rep a new one. And in reality, that person on
(24:10):
the other end is going through a lot too. Right.
And I never think of that. At least I didn't before
I came into customer service. I'd always think of like, this
person's going to ruin my day. I'm already mad and I'm
about to ruin their day too. And now I just have a little bit more
empathy for them. And I'm like, like they're bringing their whole life
(24:33):
to the role that, that, that they're in. And they're, yes, they're
getting paid for and this is their job. Maybe they're not, not their career, but
why should I rip them a new one when I can also have a good
experience. And I'd say that bring it full circle. Part of the
delight is how I approach that experience, too, because there's a lot of
times when I would approach the experience and just be like, hey, Mark,
(24:55):
thanks. Thanks for your time. How are you doing today? And just kind of break
the mold and hear what they're. When I'm not. I'm not having a great day.
Oh yeah, what's going on? And you take five seconds to know the person or
if they can't help you, just be like, you know what? Sounds like you did
everything you could. Thanks so much. Is there anything else that you could potentially
do that to make this a better experience? And you're just like enjoying the process.
(25:16):
And I think the delight comes from both sides. Yeah. Some schooling for
us on the consumer side. Yes. Nick, thank you so much
for being a guest on the Delighted Customers Show. Again, the book,
the Heart of Service. Nick Limsdahl. Thanks again, Nick. Thanks so
much, Mark.
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