Dissociation

There are cases in which the help that a person needs may very well be with a pastor as well as with a mental health professional.

"A spiritually-focused modality of care should be considered to meet patients where they are, and can be incorporated as an unconventional component of a multi-disciplinary treatment plan" (Winetroub and Buoi). Pastoral intervention in extreme cases could at times be life-saving.

This is the deliverance dialogues.

Music:

(Intro/Outro theme) Mystery's Embrace by Universfield, (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://freemusicarchive.org/music/universfield/mystery-music/mysterys-embrace/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) licensed under an ⁠Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License⁠.

All other music and sound effects sourced from Pixabay, free for use under the Pixabay content license.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
An article was published in the Indian Journal of Psychiatry
documenting the case of a 43 year old woman.
Here's what the article said. She would start shaking her body
and head in gyrating movements. She would be unaware of what was
going on around her. She would say that she is sent
by her husband's dead sister-in-law to kill her

(00:23):
husband at other times. She would claim that she was a
demon. At times, she would utter
completely irrelevant and incomprehensible speech.
Sounds like another classic caseof demonic possession, right?

(00:43):
Or maybe not. In fact, the Journal of
Psychiatry goes on to explain that although she was initially
suspected of having trance and possession disorder, which we'll
be talking about further in today's episode, an EEG and an
MRI ultimately showed that her symptoms were resulting from

(01:06):
gross neurological lesions rather than possession syndrome
or demonic possession. This woman was actually
suffering with central nervous system lesions.
I'm Doctor Robbie Willis. This is the Deliverance
Dialogues. So the reality is that these

(01:32):
conversations we're having, they're more complex than we
want them to be. And each of us have a tendency
to think within our own sphere of experience.
So for the one who has cast out many demons, when you hear of a
woman with this set of symptoms,you're likely to automatically
assume that this is clearly demonic.

(01:54):
For the mental health professional that does therapy
with patients on a regular basis, you may automatically
hear this and say, well, perhapsthat's a case of dissociative
identity disorder. Perhaps that's a case of
schizophrenia or something else.And for the medical Doctor Who
hears this, you may be automatically thinking, perhaps

(02:18):
more in line with what the condition actually was.
Maybe there's some type of neurological condition taking
place. Here's the reality.
Too often, professionals in one sphere or another make not so
subtle suggestions that those who think in another sphere are

(02:40):
just simply not knowing what they're talking about.
That is, those who are well acquainted with the concept of
demonization and deliverance maywant to charge those who
automatically assume that a condition is medical or mental
health in its nature with being too naturalistic, too

(03:02):
materialistic, too western minded.
At the same time, those who automatically assume that it is
a medical condition may want to charge ministers of deliverance,
pastors or exorcist with being superstitious or stuck in the
Middle Ages or something like this.

(03:22):
But I really do long for a day when we can bring all of our
best thinkers to the table together and ask the question,
how can we offer solid help to those that are struggling?
In our last episode, we sat downwith Jesse, who talked to us
about her battle with bipolar depression and also with some

(03:45):
level of demonic harassment. We talked about how her journey
to healing has included medicineand counseling and prayer
deliverance. Well, I think that that story
that her her situation is a really good leading to today's

(04:11):
conversation. Now last week we talked about
bipolar 1 and how that can impact the human mind.
Today we want to discuss a not so well understood condition
that's often referred to as dissociative identity disorder.
It was previously referred to asmultiple personality disorder,

(04:33):
but before we get into the disorder and before we talk
about the overlap that may existbetween it and demonization in
some cases, I want to start witha little bit of a simpler
concept. And that is what is dissociation
in the 1st place. Now I'm here, as always, with my
son Timothy Willis, who is a psychology student at the

(04:56):
University of Arkansas. And we were just talking before
we started this episode, Timothy, about how people throw
this term dissociation around kind of loosey goosey.
That's a technical term, loosey goosey, by the way, how it just
gets thrown around like we were talking about last week.

(05:17):
Different psychological terms get overused.
But but Timothy, when when we talk about dissociation, what
comes to your mind immediately with this?
Dissociation is basically the brain's defense mechanism to
trauma. You see this especially in
dissociative identities disorderand I believe PTSD, where when

(05:42):
the brain experiences some severe trauma, it kind of
splinters and so part of the person's psyche splits off to be
able to take the brunt of the psychic damage so that the rest
of the person can continue to function in everyday life.

(06:03):
Right. So the, the kind of the
distinction between what's happening in in some forms of
PTSD and the social identity disorder, for instance, would be
this. With PTSD, people are
experiencing dissociation in a very real way, but their mind is
at that point often fixed on past memories, whether those are

(06:23):
being relived in visual ways or or whether in a sensory manner
in other ways, we're reliving that.
But but your conscious mind is not fully grounded in the
present. Whereas in the social identity
disorder, what we see often is, is actual other personalities,
they're presenting themselves. And so kind of the distinction
between dissociation as it's seen in DID and dissociation as

(06:45):
it may be experienced in PTSD isin post traumatic stress
disorder. The type of dissociation one
might see there would be that your consciousness is kind of
stuck in the past, even though your body is here in the
present. Whereas in dissociative identity
disorder, that's a trauma response where the, the, the

(07:08):
consciousness is splintered in avariety of ways.
Dissociation is as you, you mentioned there, it's a it's
really a self protective response.
In a previous conversation, you you mentioned to me, Timothy,
that in some ways it's almost like a miracle.
Yeah, it, it is in many ways miraculous because it's, it's,

(07:30):
it's the minds kind of way of protecting itself whenever it
has no other protection, you know, whenever you are helpless
to do anything about your situation, the mind can step in
and act as a barrier. And by splitting off a piece of
your personality or splitting off a piece of your psyche, it
can act as a barrier between youand that trauma and allow you to

(07:53):
continue functioning. Exactly.
And so it's really, it's an expression of the human mind's
ability to compartmentalize experiences and situations.
And, and so dissociation is experienced often in very
traumatic moments when it's justmore than what the individual

(08:13):
can handle. So your active consciousness
splits off and, and kind of steps into another room, you
might say. And in severe dissociation, then
certain parts of you are able todeal with what's happening in
the moment, while another part of you just kind of moves into a

(08:35):
mode where none of that's happening and everything is is
fine. If you're in the room with
someone when they dissociate, what you may see sometimes is
they just kind of have a blank look on their face.
You can offer there are physiological changes that are
experienced there. This is sometimes referred to as
a trance state. There is a transform of

(08:58):
dissociation and the social states, trance states,
possession states even have beenobserved in the vast majority of
the world by anthropologists. We've seen that this is a
condition that an experience that crosses all cultural
barriers, also socio economic and religious barriers.

(09:18):
It's an experience. It's actually very common to to
humanity. What it doesn't mean is, well,
I've got this test I've been cramming for.
Sorry professor, I just dissociated and I forgot to
study. Right.
I mean you, you, you hear that alot where people will just say

(09:41):
like, sorry, I was dissociating.And I guess there is a sense in
which it may appear similar zoning out and dissociating in
terms of you're looking at somebody, they've got a far away
look in their eye, their eyes might glaze over.
But in true dissociation, what we're talking about is not
simply you kind of got lost in thought.

(10:02):
We're talking about your psyche,your.
Your psyche is splintered, Yes. And in many cases, the person
who dissociates experiences a certain level of, of amnesia
concerning that event. That is, they don't necessarily
remember everything of what happened in that moment.
This is far more than Oh no, I forgot to study from my exam and

(10:23):
now I realize they're going to give me a grade.
Please help me. I'm not well, that's not really
what's what's going on here. So dissociation in and of
itself, the experience of dissociation doesn't mean you
have a disease or a disorder. It could be experienced by any

(10:43):
human being under the right circumstances.
However, when dissociation becomes a reoccurring event, a
reoccurring experience, and it'scausing distress, it's
interfering with your daily life, your daily function, an
extreme expression of that is what has come to be called

(11:04):
dissociative identity disorder. Now Timothy, if you would kind
of walk us through from the DSM five of the Diagnostic
Statistical Manual, mental health disorders, what
dissociative identity disorder is.
Sure. So like we were talking about

(11:25):
earlier, dissociation is a natural process of the mind to
protect itself from severe psychic damage.
What we see in dissociative identity disorder is that after
that trauma, the dissociated part of the psyche fails to
reintegrate with the rest of thepersonality, which causes a

(11:47):
distinct split. So there are basically 5
diagnostic criteria for dissociative identity disorder.
The first one is that the disruption of identity in the
individual must be characterizedby two or more distinct
personality states. This isn't just simply like a

(12:08):
mood swing. This is there is a different
person in the driver's seat. The second criteria is recurrent
gaps in the recall of everyday events.
So you're having kind of amnesiarelated to your like personal
information and especially traumatic events that have

(12:28):
happened to you that's inconsistent with the way you
would normally forget about things.
The third is that the symptoms cause significant distress or
impairment in your life. So we're not talking simply
something that's a minor annoyance.
It it's really causing you lots of problems in your everyday
life. The 4th criteria is that the

(12:51):
disturbance is not a normal partof broadly accepted cultural or
religious practices. One of the examples used in the
DSM 5 is that it's not maybe more consistent with just a
child playing with an imaginary friend, but it's a very real
distinct separation of your personality.
The 5th and final diagnostic criteria is that you can't

(13:14):
better attribute the symptoms tothe effects of a substance like
drugs or alcohol. So usually in dissociative
identity disorder, it is associated, and I think we'll
talk about this a little bit later, with childhood trauma.
So most, and I mean not necessarily all, but most people

(13:36):
who have DDID are going to have experienced some significant
childhood drama. Very much so.
And typically in DID you also see a a significant number of Co
occurring or the medical terms comorbid psychiatric disorders
that go along with it heavily rooted in trauma and a lot of

(13:57):
other mental illness going on. So while the social of identity
disorder is distinct from demonization and there are
features that are different between the two conditions, it
is worth noting that the DSM 5 actually does include a
possession form of DID. And so I'm reading here from the

(14:23):
DSM concerning the possession form of DID, and this is what it
says. Possession form identities and
dissociative identity disorder typically manifest as behaviors
that appear as if a spirit, supernatural being, or an
outside person has taken control, such that the
individual begins speaking or acting in a distinctly different

(14:44):
manner. An individual may be taken over
by a demon or deity resulting inprofound impairment followed by
subtle periods of identity alteration.
Now what's interesting is that the DSM 4 actually contained a

(15:04):
separate diagnosis that was dropped from the DSM 5.
The DSM 4 contained a separate diagnosis for what was known as
dissociative trance disorder. There were a group of
researchers, researchers led by Emmanuel During and his four
co-authors that conducted a major study proposing for

(15:30):
dissociative trans disorder to be included in the DSM 5, even
though that was ultimately not what happened.
Instead, the social trans disorder was merged into
dissociative identity disorder in the DSM five.
I thought it was worth mentioning what During and his
fellow researchers recommended. They actually recommended that

(15:54):
this larger explanation for the possession form of dissociative
trans disorder, which now under our current diagnostic manual is
included then under dissociativeidentity disorder.
During and his co-authors wrote this, the possession type is a

(16:16):
single or episodic alteration inthe state of consciousness that
is characterized by the replacement of a customary sense
of personal identity by a new identity identified by the
patient or his entourage as the spirit of an animal, a deceased
individual, a deity, or a power evidenced by at least one of the

(16:37):
following A determined behaviors, movement, speech or
attitude that are experienced orrecognized as being controlled
by the possession agent, or B visual or auditory
hallucinations related to the possessing agent.
So here's the take home that even in the psychological Manual

(17:03):
that reflects on the social identity disorder, it is
recognized that the experience of some who are dissociating on
a regular basis is that from their perspective, they are
being controlled by a demon, a deity or a God, a dead relative,

(17:23):
something of this sort. Why does that matter?
It matters because you can't offer good treatment to someone
without understanding their perspective on what they're
experiencing. In other words, it doesn't
really matter what the therapist, the medical doctor,
or the pastor personally believes is happening.

(17:46):
Not first of all, what matters first of all is what the patient
is experiencing from their perspective because their
perspectives may not be real. Their experience may not be real
to the outside world, but it's very real to them, and
understanding from a phenomenological viewpoint what

(18:08):
their experience is, is vital tooffering good treatment.
And this is where we talked about in an earlier episode.
It's important to interpret whatis going on with an individual
through their worldview, otherwise you risk causing
psychological damage. 100% that is true.
If someone understands their experience to be spiritual in

(18:31):
nature and you strip all the spiritual meaning away from it
for them, your treatments not likely to be especially
effective at that point because you're denying their reality
because it doesn't match your reality.
So when we talked about this, it's interesting to note that

(18:57):
this is not. Maybe you're listening and
you're thinking, well, that's just a, it's just a religious
spin on mental health conditions.
And if that's what you're hearing, you are fundamentally
misunderstanding. The point that I'm trying to
make actually is that these conditions, these same
situations are studied by peoplefrom all walks of life.

(19:18):
And for many of us, one of our leading goals is to help those
that are in distress find the help that they really need and
find a place of peace within their struggles.
So we understand what dissociation is.
We understand what dissociative identity disorder is.
We're going to spend some time and we're going to unpack what

(19:41):
the possession form of dissociative identity disorder
looks like. Now there is another manual for
classifying mental health disorders, and it's the
International Classification of Diseases, which is now in its
10th edition, or the ICD 10. The ICD 10 discusses what's

(20:04):
often called possession syndrome.
Some Some authors say it should be called the possession
syndromes because. There's not necessarily 1 clear
cut way that this presents itself.
Nonetheless, it's the same thingthat we're talking about, that
someone is experiencing recurring moments where their

(20:25):
own personality is no longer in control and they have the
experience of being controlled by something that is wholly
other than themselves. It's completely different than
what they are. The most compelling evidence of
this for me was not found actually in the writings of
exorcists or of deliverance ministers outside the Bible

(20:49):
itself. The most compelling evidence for
me was found in medical journals, the writing of
psychiatrists and psychologists that were documenting conditions
that they see, in some cases reflecting on how they were
healed, or in other cases reflecting on how they could
have been healed. I'd like to share one of those.

(21:11):
This is written by Amin Gadit, who works in the area of
transcultural psychiatry. Amin Gadit documents a 21 year
old female who presents with extreme aggression,
extraordinary strength, and the ability to speak Arabic without
having learned it. This was observed once in the

(21:35):
clinic. That is, her ability to speak
Arabic without having learned itwas observed in the clinic.
These episodes typically last 15to 20 minutes and they happen at
least three times weekly. The patient has no psychiatric
comorbidities and no history of mental disorder.
Now remember in dissociative identity disorder, there are

(21:58):
usually multiple Co occurring mental health disorders, but
this particular patient had nonethat that's very important to
understanding what's going on. So GADID refers to possession by
GIN as a possible pathology. For those that aren't familiar
with that. In the Muslim world, a jinn is

(22:20):
what I would refer to as a demon.
It's a type of spirit that is known in some Islamic writings.
While that may sound kind of outthere to us, this is pretty well
documented in writings from around the world that the
experience of being possessed byjinn, whether you believe in

(22:41):
jinn or not. By the way, it's the word that
we get the word genie from is the same concept.
Whether you believe that Jin exists or not, there are
numerous people around the worldthat have been had the
experience of, from their perspective, being possessed by
a demon or a jinn. Doctors Khalifa and Hardy state

(23:02):
this. The patient's own interpretation
must be taken into consideration.
In other words, if you use a treatment that strips away the
spiritual significance of what the patient is going through
when from their case it's very spiritual in nature, you're
missing the point of how to helpthem.

(23:24):
So when you look at the cases like this that are documented by
gedit, there's a few things thatstand out to me.
One is this. It meets many of the criteria
for DID, but there was no evidence of childhood trauma
when you read the fuller account, which is very non
typical for DID. Second, it meets the criteria

(23:44):
for possession syndromes from the ICD 10, but all medical and
mental health treatments failed.This individual 1/3 is this.
The patient displays clear preternatural or paranormal
signs. That is, she has unusual
strength and she has the abilityto speak a language you haven't

(24:05):
learned at this point. While it's reasonable to call
this the possession type of dissociative identity disorder,
Tim, I'm just curious, in your psychology program, have you
came across a mental health disorder that makes you able to
speak a language you haven't learned?
That would be phenomenal to observe.

(24:28):
Be amazing. It would be amazing.
Unprecedented, but. True.
Amazing. And it's interesting that the
researcher, who's not writing from a Christian perspective, by
the way, does not offer any suggestions on how this person
may have subconsciously picked up this language.
They only know that they seem tobe able to speak Arabic.

(24:51):
In this case, if exorcists were viewed as professionals, the
patient would clearly meet criteria for a referral.
To say it another way, there arecases in which the help that a
person needs may very well be with a pastor as well as with a
mental health professional. You know, we were talking about

(25:12):
this earlier, but when people are saying, well, trust the
science, you know, a lot of people will deny, at least in my
experience, a lot of people willdeny the existence of demonic
activity because they'll say it,well, it's not very scientific.
Right. But what's unscientific about

(25:32):
this researcher going out into the field and documenting a case
that she's seen where there's several clear preternatural
signs and it's unexplainable by a medical diagnosis, You know,
that's empirical, if anything isempirical.
It is, and we should be very careful to not assume that our

(25:53):
particular idea about what is scientific.
Suddenly we got to make sure that doesn't suddenly just
become a way to try to impose our worldview on others.
I'd like to remind our listenersthat the majority of the world
actually believes in some form of spirits, angels, demons, God,

(26:18):
Satan. It is a minority population that
believes in a purely naturalistic and materialistic
worldview. And by the way, these studies
that we're referring to are again, from medical journals.
Dr. Khalifa and Hardy are writing in the Journal of the
Royal Society of Medicine. So what we got to ask ourselves

(26:41):
at that point then is what? How badly do we want people to
receive help in cases like this one that's documented by
Gaddeep? Medical interventions have
failed. Psyche psychological therapy,
psychotherapy is failing. Exorcism or deliverance is

(27:04):
actually the only rational treatment at this point and the
only way it can be argued against that I can think of
would be based on an anti supernatural presupposition.
We're just saying, well we know that demons aren't real, So what
are we going to do with this person?
Simply consign them to continue suffering because it doesn't fit

(27:28):
our view of reality. By the way, this isn't just an
isolated incident. Here's another Colin Weintraub
and Melissa P Boy document the case of a 53 year old man, we'll
call him Mr. A, who presents with frequent episodes during
which he would speak in a demonic voice, exhibit, exhibit

(27:52):
superhuman strength and engage in profound non suicidal self
injury. By the way, this is published in
the Journal of the Academy of Consultation, Liaison Psychiatry
in December of 2021. So the episodes that Mister A
experienced are short in duration and are followed by

(28:15):
retrograde amnesia. Other symptoms include a bad
smell and visual hallucinations of a demon's face covered in
erotic imagery, which occurred separately from his dissociative
episodes. Mr. A is from a Southern Baptist
background. Now I want you to listen to this
encounter that happened while inthe clinic.

(28:35):
This is word for word from the published work in this journal.
Toward the end of the of the psychiatric evaluation, it
became apparent that he and his wife were not reassured by our
team's suggestion that his diagnosis may be primarily
psychiatric. He then began to growl and

(28:56):
exclaim in a gravelly voice, Mr.Ray's not here anymore.
He began hitting himself with anice pack which broke open,
throwing ice all around the room.
He pulled at the EEG leads affixed to his scalp, yelling
remove these chains. Security was called.

(29:19):
However, before their arrival, he lay down on his hospital bed
and appeared to fall asleep. His EEG did not demonstrate any
signature pattern consistent with sleep, seizure, or other
neurological abnormality at any point before, during, or after

(29:40):
the episode. Now, this next paragraph is
taken from page 98 of my dissertation where I write.
Mr. A's condition was unresponsive to medicine and he
showed no improvement even after10 inpatient psychiatric stays.
The authors of this study observed that quote, a
spiritually focused modality of care should be considered to

(30:02):
meet patients where they are andcan be incorporated as an
unconventional conventional component of a multidisciplinary
treatment plan. End Quote.
Pastoral intervention in cases like this might very well prove
life saving. Timothy, when you hear me read

(30:25):
about this Southern Baptist man manifesting demons, it sounds
like while connected to an EEG, what's the first thing that
comes to your mind? I mean, it sounds terrible, but
that's so cool to me that like I, I told you this earlier, I
was always curious like, what would it look like if we hook up

(30:45):
someone who's actively manifesting to it to an EEG And
apparently it doesn't have any effect on the EEG, which is
fascinating to me. The other thing, though, is that
this is absolutely unacceptable in this case is, I mean, this
guy went for you, said 10 in inpatient, so 10 inpatient stays

(31:12):
and got no help. And from the sounds of it, while
the authors recognize, yeah, pastoral intervention is needed
here, they didn't refer him. And so we need some kind of
multidisciplinary treatment plans available.
Something like that, as far as I'm aware, doesn't exist yet.

(31:32):
Pastors and mental health professionals and doctors
working together doesn't exist yet.
And this is exactly what I'm calling for and I and I want our
listeners to understand this. I am not suggesting that we only
treat people who appear to have some type of demonic harassment

(31:53):
only with prayer, deliverance orexorcism.
What I am saying is that we needan integrated approach, a
harmonized approach that recognizes that people are
inherently spiritual beings and that the majority of the world

(32:14):
believes that. When people feel that they are
being harassed spiritually, it'sworth considering that at least
from a certain perspective, that's actually happening, that
spiritual deliverance should be valued as an important treatment
right alongside good mental health care and good medical

(32:39):
care. What's crazy is that if I read
these stories to a whole lot of people, even born again
Christian people, nobody gets bothered when I say this person
was referred for good medical care.
We did the EEG and an MRI. Nobody's bothered when I say,
hey, we referred to a good counselor.

(33:01):
But where are we seeing the medical professionals saying,
hey, you need a pastor? Yeah, I mean, it might happen in
isolated circumstances, but thisisn't something that medical
professionals are trained to do.This isn't something that mental
health professionals are trainedto do.
And in fact, a lot of people will look down their nose at you
if you say, yeah, I went to get such and such spiritual help.

(33:23):
Exactly right. And by the way, I'm not saying
that every case is curable through Deliverance.
I, I consulted, actually you were with me.
I consulted on a situation very recently where the person was
very clearly psychologically andI would dare say spiritually
disturbed. And I would love to say that

(33:43):
when we left, they were fine, that that simply wasn't the
case. Tragically, they still need a
lot of help. But I do want to say thank God
that in that case, there was somebody that was not
functioning as a pastor that waswilling to say, let's at least
have the conversation about how to get this help, this person,

(34:05):
the help that they need, right? So let's let's look at one more
case study and then let's kind of start to pull some of this
stuff together. Another case, and this is titled
simply a case of Possession syndrome.
A 28 year old woman in Pakistan was admitted to the hospital due

(34:27):
to multiple burns inflicted by aspiritual healer, Dr. Syed Aseem
Chaudry and others. Observe quote.
She started exhibiting aggressive behavior toward her
family members, abusing, cursingand hitting anyone who came near
her. She muttered strange languages
which one of her neighbors recognize as pushto.

(34:50):
There were no complete sentences, but it was merely
curses. She never learned this language
and no one in her family knew the language.
She developed immense strength during the episodes and she
could lift heavy objects and throw those objects around.
It was impossible to hold her and keep her calm.
There's a there's a lot of otherthings that I would like to

(35:11):
really unpack if time allowed about this situation.
And again, this is published in in in my dissertation on page
99. But what what the study reveals
that she's treated with a variety of medications,
including the antipsychotic medicine alonzapine.
She did show some improvement, but there was no remission.

(35:33):
And so although this study author goes so far as to kind of
boldly say that dissociative identity disorder is pretty much
curable, they were unable to demonstrate that this woman was,
in fact, cured. Right.
And so it's one thing to make these sweeping statements like
this. Well, this condition is is
pretty much curable. That's a direct quote, by the

(35:55):
way. But where was the cure?
In what way did medicine or therapy explain her ability to
speak a language she hasn't learned and what way to
alleviate her suffering? Now in this case, this poor
woman was traumatized by the type of religious intervention

(36:17):
that that that had been attempted, which was
catastrophic and deplorable in this case.
But you know what she didn't have?
She didn't have any other Co occurring psychiatric conditions
and she had no history of traumaoutside the unfortunate attempts
to treat her by local healers there.
Which is really not consistent with DID.

(36:40):
It's not. And the reason we're having, I
know this is kind of an information heavy episode, The
reason we're having this conversation is that although I
very much value good mental health treatment, what I want us
to understand is this, this diagnosis, diagnosis of
dissociative identity disorder, as it's currently being

(37:02):
discussed, is so broad that it includes things that many
experts in that field do not believe realistically fit under
it. And in many cases, symptoms that
are more preternatural or paranormal in nature are
actually being grouped under this psychiatric disorder.

(37:26):
And to quote Doctor Richard Gallagher, a Harvard educated
psychiatrist, he said I have yetto see a mental health disorder
'cause somebody to levitate or speak a language they've never
learned. I want to give us some thoughts
to ponder as we continue to talkabout this harmonized approach.
So in another study that I'm notgoing to read it at length, but

(37:49):
it was a study from 2013 in India of a case of possession
syndrome with a young girl that was at high altitude, 15,000
feet and she appeared to be cured after undergoing an
exorcism. Here is what the study authors
found. This is Doctors Khan and Sani in

(38:11):
an article published in the Kathmandu University Medical
Journal titled Possession Syndrome at High Altitude.
They write quote Exorcism has been seen by doctors as well to
bring profound mental and physical improvement leading to
total remission as seen in this case.

(38:34):
In true possession syndrome, exorcism appears to be the only
help possible. End Quote.
There's another study in Uganda that examined more than 100
cases of possession using the kind of integrative approach

(38:55):
that we're calling for. The research established that
there was a connection between the individual's current
distress and their past trauma. However, 99% of the patients
reported significant improvementafter undergoing A culturally
sanctioned exorcism without addressing their trauma, with

(39:18):
more than 1/2 claiming complete healing.
That's amazing. Reflecting on this study and
others like it. Psychotherapist Michael Sirsch,
in his book Demons on the Couch,Spirit Possession, Exorcism and
the DSM 5, notes that exorcism may actually prove more

(39:41):
effective than conventional treatments for conditions like
DID and schizophrenia among patients that are culturally
conditioned to believe it. Now, when I read that, that kind
of hurt my feelings a little bit.
But you know, I've learned is that facts don't care about my
feelings. Here's the question if more than

(40:02):
100 patients are studied by psychologists.
And found to experience this kind of relief through exorcism.
Now, by the way, the study doesn't say if this was written
from a Christian perspective, a Muslim perspective.
I have no idea. It doesn't say anywhere in what

(40:23):
I read, only that they were treated with a, a, a culturally
sanctioned exorcism. I've got to wonder, a 50% cure
rate? That's staggering.
I've got to wonder what would have happened if we had
addressed their trauma along with that.
What would have happened then ifwe'd had some good therapy to go
along with this? If there are conditions that can

(40:47):
be cured that are currently deemed incurable, those are
conversations that atheists and Christians and Muslims and
Hindus need to all be having. Right, because we have a duty as
professionals to look into thosethings because if it's.
Curable then we can't call it incurable 100% that is true.

(41:10):
Now I am a born again Christian and I believe that the name of
Jesus Christ has unique power todrive out demons.
But as a human, I desire for us to find every pathway possible
to bring healing to individuals.Although I'm not going to
espouse any religious ideology outside the Christian faith, I'm

(41:34):
very comfortable listening to the findings of people from a
wide perspective, saying we are looking at verifiable medical
and psychological treatments where people are getting better
doctors. Khan and Sani can write this and
some of their final observations.
And I want to leave us with thisbefore we present to you a a

(41:58):
diagnostic approach laid out by Doctor T Craig Isaacs, Doctors
Kahn and Sonny Right quote. There is a wide gap between the
medical and theological ideologyregarding possession syndrome.
There is a serious lack of understanding of medical
pathology by layman, including theologians who tend to think in

(42:20):
their own sphere of belief. Similarly, it is possible that
doctors lack theological information constraining them to
diagnose in their sphere of knowledge.
Drug resistant cases of possession syndrome have been
cured by exorcism as well as people have died in the hands of

(42:42):
exorcist for want of medical attention.
The concept of possession shouldbe observed as a disease
condition and a harmonizing approach.
Advocated. Theological perspectives can be
amalgamated with current scientific theory and practice,
thereby complementing existing concepts.

(43:04):
Possession syndrome and exorcismmay be incorporated into some
paradigm of illness. What an absolutely profound
claim that theologians, doctors,therapists need to all be
working together. As Christians, we believe that

(43:26):
God brings healing in a wide variety of ways.
Exorcism and deliverance is one of those ways.
I long to see a day when we can have these conversations as
professionals that can sit down together and discuss how can we
help this person get well. So what do we do with all this

(43:47):
information? Certainly I I believe from what
I've read and observed in real life, that dissociative identity
disorder as a purely psychological struggle does
exist. At the same time, I recognize as
a pastor and as someone that's prayed for deliverance with a

(44:08):
good number of people, that there are individuals who in
many ways would meet some of thecriteria for dissociative
identity disorder. But their own experience is that
they're being controlled by a demonic entity.
And in many cases, you see actual paranormal activity
that's happening in their lives simultaneously.

(44:32):
What do you do with that? Even some deliverance ministers,
like Doctor Francis Mcnutt, havewarned us not to try to cast
demons out of someone with dissociative identity disorder
because it could cause damage. The point is well taken that if

(44:53):
someone is truly through throughtrauma, has created an altar
personality and you try to cast that altar out, they may
experience that as though you'retrying to rid them of part of
their self. That's valid.
At the same time, is it possibleto help those that do feel

(45:15):
they're being tormented by some type of a of a monster or a
demon or whatever word you may want to use who also have some
signs of dissociation? Dr. Dennis Bull, psychotherapist
that specializes in working withpeople who have dissociative
identity disorder, says yes, it's possible to use exorcism

(45:37):
without causing harm. Dr. Bull writes this exorcisms
appear to cause problems for twomain reason.
First, exorcisms tend to be doneby religious people with little
or no understanding of dissociative disorders and or
psychological dynamics. It is damaging when
psychological constructs like alter personalities are assumed

(46:00):
to be demons by those doing the exorcism.
Second, when done by some in Christian ministry, exorcisms
tend to be practiced in controlling and demeaning ways.
They tend to be done to the patient with little or no
cooperation on the part of the patient, and this is often
experienced as re victimization by the patient.

(46:23):
That is a vital observation. A lot of people that have gone
through having demons cast out of them, even though they felt
better in some respects later, really felt like they had been
treated very roughly. And I've known of people that
said to me they actually experienced flashbacks of the

(46:44):
process of exorcism itself. We got to do better than that.
Those who listen to this podcastwill notice that sometimes I get
loud and passionate even in thissetting.
That's not a problem. I enjoy shouting and I enjoy a
good demonstrative church service.
At the same time, if someone is actively experiencing traumatic

(47:06):
dissociation, someone yelling intheir face come out of them.
You foul demon is not likely to settle down their feeling of
being traumatized. The old shouted out method is
not necessarily the best approach in every case.
With all this said, Dennis Bull says that there are three steps

(47:28):
to what he calls therapeutic exorcism that he has found to be
very effective with those suffering with the possession
form of dissociative identity disorder.
The first step is this, you collaborate with the patient
that is deliverance. Ministers and therapists should
work with patients to determine what needs to be cast out and
what needs to stay. This is a good time to discuss

(47:51):
what the person feels, what theyhear, what they see.
There may be images that don't appear demonic to them, but they
do to others. When dealing with someone that
has dissociative identity disorder, it's vital to trust
the patient's sense about things, right?
So it's not my job in this moment necessarily to be the

(48:12):
expert. It's my job to walk with them to
help them find the relief that they need.
Second, ask the individual if heor she believes there is a power
that is stronger than their demon.
Those with DID typically believethat their tormentor is
supernatural, therefore it must also be confronted
supernaturally. For ministers, this is an

(48:35):
excellent time to encourage the individual to call on the name
of Christ. Doctor Bull writes this quote.
It's ironic that calling on a higher power is standard fare
for work with patients who have addictions, yet it is frowned
upon and somehow seen as illegitimate for other kinds of

(48:55):
psychiatric disorders. That's a vital insight.
How are you going to cure somebody regardless of what you
think? How are you going to cure
somebody of a condition they believe is spiritual in nature?
If you tell them that spiritual things aren't real?
There's got to be spiritual power exerted over that.

(49:18):
And for me, the greatest power is the name of Jesus Christ
through the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Third, according to Doctor Bull,we need to encourage the patient
to take control of expelling thedemon.
I can't agree with this any morethan I do.
While the one leading the deliverance session may offer

(49:38):
help when needed, the primary goal is to offer encouragement
and guidance to the patient. Bull learned from experience
that when an altar is banned, patients report that it feels
like part of themselves is missing.
But when an entity is banned, they feel relief.
The ultimate decision must be the patients.

(50:00):
Now I'm using the word patient because Doctor Dennis Bull is
treating patients as a psychotherapist.
As a pastor, here's the reality.I know that what Dennis Bull is
saying is true because the most effective exorcist, beyond the
name of Jesus Christ and the workings of the Spirit, the most

(50:21):
effective exorcist is never a pastor, an individual.
It is that person who is suffering, exercising the power
of their will, and standing up to demon powers and saying I
will not be dominated anymore bysomething that is trying to
destroy my life. We've got to restore a sense of

(50:43):
personal power to the individuals that says I can
overcome this through the power of Jesus Christ.
There is a God and that God wants me to be healthy.
He wants me to be whole. Therefore, I can be liberated of
the things that are tormenting me and my mind can be
reintegrated, healed, so that it's not fractured into multiple
pieces anymore. The trauma has ceased.

(51:06):
I can choose to be whole again. That's a powerful moment.
As we get ready to wrap up today's episode, I want to leave
us with a reflection from DoctorT Craig Isaacs.
Dr. Isaacs is a psychotherapist and Anglican priest and an

(51:26):
exorcist. He practices in the state of
California. Dr. Isaacs has given us a great
gift in that he laid out diagnostic criteria for what he
calls the possessive states disorder.
Now, it should be noted that Doctor Isaacs does believe in
real demonic entities and has observed that that their

(51:50):
activity can be seen and observed in a clinical way that
can lead to moral certainty thatpeople actually do need
deliverance or exorcism. Timothy, if you've got that in
front of you, would you walk us through Doctor Isaac's criteria?
Yeah, so in a similar way to that, the DSM 5 lays out

(52:13):
diagnostic criteria for DID, Doctor Isaacs lays out
diagnostic criteria for possessive, what he calls
Possessive States disorder. So first, the experience of
being controlled by someone or something other than yourself
with a loss of self-control in one of four areas, which is
thinking, anger or profanity, impulsivity or physical

(52:36):
functioning must be present. Right. 2nd, a sense of self that
fluctuates between periods of emptiness and periods of
inflation. So really low lows and really
high highs must be present. This fluctuation is due to the
individual feeling very out of control.
Third, one of the following mustbe present.

(52:57):
The person must experience visions of dark figures or
apparations and or they hear coherent voices that have a real
not a dreamlike quality. Trances or the present of more
the presence of more than one personality must be present.
Revulsive religious actions Revulsive religious reactions,

(53:17):
such as extreme negative reactions to prayer or religious
objects must be present. Some form of paranormal
phenomena, such as telepathy, levitation, or strength out of
proportion to their age or theirsituation, or some sort of
paranormal impact on others, such as a physical stench,
coldness in the room, or the feeling of some sort of alien

(53:40):
presence. Isaacs argues that all three of
these, which includes one of those that I just listed, must
be present. Right.
So we're not talking about, well, I mean if you read just B,
it fluctuates between periods ofemptiness and periods of
inflation. You can say, well, that's
bipolar disorder. Well, Isaacs is not saying that
that alone is diagnostic criteria.

(54:01):
Also, that alone is not diagnostic criteria for bipolar
disorder either. So there has to.
The point we're making is that there are some real objective
markers for the the presence of demonic activity.
This is not new to Isaac's by any means.
The Roman rite of exorcism from the 1600s made it made it very

(54:24):
clear that the minister is supposed to test for signs of
possession until he has moral certainty or moral certitude
that the person is in fact demonized.
And those can include hidden, the possession of hidden
knowledge. It can, it can include

(54:45):
supernatural strength, the experience of levitation, things
of this sort, revulsion to religious objects.
Like I said, it can include a variety of things like this.
So what we're saying is this, there are plenty of people in
the world today who absolutely just have a medical condition

(55:06):
like the story we open with thatcentral nervous system lesions,
and there's no reason to assume that that is demonic.
Just because it's expressing itself in a way that looks
demonic to us doesn't mean that it is.
At the same time, there's also people that have a mental health

(55:27):
condition that fits the criteriaof a mental health condition for
which there is a proven approachto treatment that may not be
entirely satisfactory, but is often effective in in including
people's outcomes. At the same time, there are
multitudes of people across thisworld who have had the

(55:49):
experience of being controlled by something that is wholly
other from themselves. In many cases, there's been
objective proof that that's taking place witness not only by
themselves but by others. Some things can fit into any of
these categories of somebody screaming and torment.

(56:09):
That can be spiritual, that can be psychological, that can be
medical. These are the reasons we've got
to approach this holistically. And I long for a day when
doctors and mental health therapists and pastors can sit
down around the table together and with proper consent signed
by patients, can have a conversation about how to help

(56:32):
this person get well, addressingthings spirit, soul and body.
When we can work with those who we lead and those whom we love
and say there is hope, there is healing, there is a future.
Some of that's going to come through prayer.
Some of it may come through medicine.
Some of it may come through counseling, but we love you so

(56:55):
much that we are going to throw everything we've got at this.
And we're going to help you comethrough.
Because the God that created heaven and earth loves you so
much that He has deposited giftsand abilities in a wide array of
people who are willing to come together to offer you help.

(57:19):
Maybe that's a pretty robust dream, but it's mine, Timothy.
I believe that there are people right now that are suffering,
believing themselves to be incurable, that God can once
again restore, to be functioningmembers of our society who may

(57:42):
never be able to explain in natural terms what happened.
But maybe they'll sing one of the old choruses that like we
used to sing when I was a kid that said simply, Satan had me
bound, but Jesus set me free. Whatever that looks like, I

(58:02):
rejoice. I rejoice when people are set
free.