April 1, 2025 • 47 mins
America is experiencing an occult explosion. A pew research study in 1990 found that only about 8,000 people in the United States identified as Wiccans, supposed practitioners of white magic or witchcraft. However, that number increased to 1.5 million by 2018, with some experts estimating that there are 2 million Wiccans today. In this episode, we sat down with Kateshia, a former Wiccan to discuss her experiences and her testimony of salvation and deliverance through Jesus Christ.
This is The Deliverance Dialogues.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There was a girl about age 2 andher mother was trying to
sacrifice her to Satan because she was a witch and she believed
that in Satan's eyes she would be elevated by being able to
give birth and sacrifice her children.
Someone had walked in and stopped that from happening.
That woman grew up to have children herself and during the
meantime, two of her siblings, they died and it's believed that
(00:24):
that mother killed them at different times to sacrifice
them to Satan. That woman has her children, the
grandmother that has sacrificed two children previously there
were situations and she got to see them and be around them for
a short period of time and things seem to be going OK until
1 evening. She grabbed a butcher knife and
started to chase all six children around.
(00:47):
Well, one was still young. So five children around saying
I'm going to kill you, I'm goingto sacrifice you to Satan and
broke the doors down, broke another door down trying to get
to the mom and the five childrento kill and sacrifice each and
every one of them is what she was continuously saying.
Thank the Lord. Cop showed up, got her out of
(01:09):
there and the children are all safe to this day.
And I want to share this with you because I am a grandchild of
that woman that did those terrible things.
Conversations like this are onesthat some of our listeners may
(01:29):
be a bit taken back by. For others, it's going to seem
very normal. The reality is this, When we
talk about sacrifice, witchcraft, Satanism, other
forms of paganism, or the occult, we may be tempted to
assume that those are primarily occurring in far off places.
(01:52):
Yet the individual that we interviewed today speaks of
these things in a multi generational fashion, having
occurred right here in Arkansas.The reality is that
conversations about witchcraft and the occult are ones that we
very much need to be having because they're happening
(02:15):
everywhere in our society. If as Christians, we don't
believe people are talking aboutthis, we're simply not paying
attention. And in fact, the Bible has much
to say about it. And so sometimes when people say
to me as a born again believer, hey, why are you speaking
against these things? Well, from a biblical
perspective, it's because the Bible does.
(02:38):
From a practical and psychological perspective, it's
because I see often those that get deeply involved with the
occult, it has a disintegrating effect long term on their mind.
The effects are actually catastrophic on the individual
because the devil makes big promises.
(03:00):
The Bible says these transform into an Angel of light, but in
the end, devastation always finds its way back around.
Do not be deceived. Darkness is lurking around the
corner. When we cast off biblical truth
(03:20):
in favor of other paths to power, there's devastating
effects. In Deuteronomy chapter 18 and
verse 10 and following, we read There shall not be found among
you anyone that makes his son ordaughter to pass through the
fire. Now pause, lest we miss that
some people have misrepresented the Old Testament text like it's
(03:43):
unnecessarily harsh. But because of the customs of
the nation, God's having to tellhis people that they can't burn
their kids alive, Say. Well, Robbie, that surely wasn't
happening. Actually it was because the
worship of the God Molech included child sacrifice through
incineration. If you will.
(04:05):
Let's start reading again. There should not be found among
you anyone that makes his son ordaughter to pass through the
fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times.
This includes horoscopes and a wide array of things of that
sort. Or an enchanter, or a witch, or
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a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard,
or a necromancer. Necromancy is the practice of
attempting to communicate with the dead through demonic agency.
For all that do these things arean abomination unto the Lord,
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And because of these abominations, the Lord your God
is driving them out from before you.
I want to turn over and share a couple more passages before we
we move on into today's interview.
Leviticus 18, verse 26. God told the people, But you
shall therefore keep my statutesand my decrees, and you shall
(05:14):
not commit any of these abominations, either the native
citizen or any foreigner who sojourns among you.
For the people of the land who were before you committed all
these abominations, and the landbecame defiled.
Now check this out verse 28, lest the land vomits you out
(05:34):
also when you defile it as it vomited out the nations that
were before you. God is not just warning against
engaging in these things becauseit's wrong.
He's saying that creation itselfreacts against evil, that
creation itself reacts against these abominations, and that the
(05:57):
the land, the earth itself criesout for it to stop.
I wonder because the common conversation, the popular
conversation these days is for people to talk about what the
universe told them. Now, I believe that what people
are generally thinking is the universe talking is either God
or a demon. But if I'm going to go with that
(06:17):
creation, the universe talks, I'm going to go with Leviticus
18. If we want to listen to the
universe, listen to this, that God said the land itself, the
earth itself is reacting againstthe evil that's in it and it's
vomiting people out. There are areas that become
uninhabitable because of the gross levels.
(06:39):
Of evil that are committed thereone more passage then I want to
get right into today's interviewbecause it's.
Truly phenomenal Isaiah chapter 8 verse 19.
When they say to you seek after mediums and the Wizards who
whisper and mutter, should not apeople seek after their God?
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Should they consult the dead forthe living to the law and to the
testimony? If they do not speak according
to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
So God puts his light in us, butwhen we allow our souls to be
darkened, then the temptation togo after other sources begins to
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really arise. Now, having said all that, there
could be the temptation among those that have never really
known anybody that was involved in witchcraft for the occult to
assume that they must just appear to be the most evil
people ever. That's just simply not the case
(07:47):
in in in many situations. In fact, those who practice
witchcraft are often our neighbors, friends, our
relatives, Co workers that overall have a desire to do much
good in the world. So I'm not speaking to motives,
(08:08):
but I will. Say actions can be very
dangerous. When I first met Katisha who
were interviewing today, it was in our local church.
My first observation was here isthe mom that loves her kids.
She's got three awesome boys. She gave her life to Christ in
(08:29):
the latter part of 2023. And we, we had an opportunity,
our families just to get to knoweach other.
And I am so thankful for her willingness to share her story.
At no moment in my interactions with Katisha did I think, wow,
she must have came from a very evil past, a very terrible
(08:53):
background. She's just somebody we worship
with. So we're going to get right into
this interview today. All right.
So thanks for joining us today for the Deliverance Dialogues.
I am here, here with my host Timothy, my Co host Timothy
(09:18):
Willis, who is at this moment invisible to you because he has
no microphone, but I can see himright here.
I'm also joined by a dear friend, the sister in Christ
from our local church, Katisha. And I'm going to let her just
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about herself.
So Katisha, tell us, tell us whoyou are and what should we know
(09:42):
about you as an individual? Well, I'm my name's Katisha
Siler. I was born and raised here in
Clarksville, AR. I am a mother of three wonderful
boys. I I've been saved since December
2023 and I attend Link Church and I absolutely love it.
I love the people there and I love the environment.
(10:03):
It's a really wonderful place tobe.
So Katisha, it's been such a absolute joy getting to worship
with you and getting to know your, your family, your boys and
just watching your your walk with Christ grow and develop has
been a super big encouragement to me and my wife and our
family. And I wanted to sit down with
(10:24):
you today just to give you an opportunity to tell your story.
So when most people, many of ourlisteners do not attend our
church, but for those that do, they're going to look over and
they're going to see you worshiping Jesus and the smile
on your face that seems to just obsessively always be there, it
seems like, which is which I, I love.
(10:45):
But they may not know much aboutyour back story.
So you mentioned that you came to Christ in December 23.
What was your background before that?
Did you come from a Christian background?
Where were you from? Another background kind of kind
of tell us a little bit about your back story.
I did for your struggle with addictions.
And I do think that led to a lotof how I was brought up.
(11:07):
I had a little bit here and there of going to church, but it
wasn't very persistent. It was maybe a month or two here
and there. But ultimately from the youngest
age I can remember, I was raisedin the household and we we were
Wiccan and I didn't really thinkmuch of it.
That's just, and I never even heard the word for the longest
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time, maybe more as a teenager, I thought, oh, OK, this doing
readings and talking to spirits and asking deities and demons or
whatnot to, you know, for their powers is just, we didn't have a
name to it. It's just what we did.
And then growing up teenager, I was like, OK, there's a name to
it. And there's more I can get into
(11:49):
which I don't recommend at all for anybody.
I do remember very clearly, something I always look forward
to was the tarot readings. Every year for our birthdays, we
would get a special reading is what they said, and we would
call upon it wasn't God. So that's, that's a big point
(12:10):
there. We would call upon other
deities. We didn't call them demons, but
that's actually what they are. That's what I know them as to
be. And we would call upon them and
ask them about our past, about our future, which of course now
I know that only God knows thoseanswers.
Sure. And you should only call upon
God for anything like that. So I have a question, and I want
(12:33):
you to jump right back into that.
So you said now you know that they're demons.
At the time you didn't think of it like that, though.
So you're thinking of these as other gods, other deities, Yes.
Did you, so did you, did you call upon them by name or how
like in your mindset at the time, how were you viewing
those, those spirits, I guess? Almost like you watch cartoons
(12:56):
and you see people have like superpowers.
It it just kind of made me thinklike that.
Like, you know, we would call itsometimes we would just, we
would call upon their names. We would, they would have a name
and we would call upon them. I was told her to learn that
this is the deity of strength orwisdom.
And so would call upon, ask for strength and then we would do
something crazy strong. You know, we felt something.
(13:19):
We were kids and so it was very exciting to us.
So we were drawn towards it. So just kind of another follow
up question. I was talking to somebody not
real long ago about about Wiccanand they respond this, well, I
didn't even know that we had any, any Wiccan churches or
temples around here is the way they say now.
So I don't really think that's exactly how this how this works.
So from that aspect, do do Wiccans have a place that they
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gather to worship or is it more of like a private devotional
type practice? More private as far as I know,
like most people that I knew we they would create their own
altars kind of like I guess for God, you would create an altar
at your house where you would goto to pray for him.
People that were friends and family, they would gather
together sometimes and they would get together and have
(14:03):
rituals. You know, a lot of times I do
remember though us kids was joined for that.
But then for a part of it, we would be told to go to the rooms
and if we were to come out that the witches would let them know
and we would see stuff in the room in the closet and such.
So we knew something was watching us and going to report
back to them. So we we would listen.
So you are actually, while they are gathering in the other rooms
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and they're telling you these witches, we're going to let them
know. And I understand you correctly.
You were, you were actually seeing a figure of some sort.
Watch. Absolutely yes.
It was terrifying. It went from having just it
seemed like so much fun to pure fear.
OK, wow. I mean, that's a lot.
That's a lot for a child to process.
So like when when you what's theearliest ages that you remember
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that type of experience? Six.
No. About 7676 and a half.
Seven. So I understand when we're
raising something that's just normal to us.
First of all, I mean, that's regardless of what your faith
upbringing is and such. Was there a point in your
upbringing that you decided, hey, I want to learn more about
this or alternatively, that you began to question it.
(15:11):
Do you remember any of those thoughts like through your teen
years? Or was it, I know you were you
were an adult when you when you surrendered your life to crass,
but just within your own mindset, how did that, how did
that play out as you grew up andgot a little bit older?
Well, there was a few times my parents were split up, but I
know that sometimes a few times with my dad, we would go to
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church, never really for more than two or three months.
But I do know I didn't know I was a child, but I didn't know
what it was that that was just like the best, happiest months
we would have. And then everything would go
back to like turmoil, the way itwas just really hard life.
But I do know as I got in my teenage years, I was angry a
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lot. I went through trauma and abuse
and I just kind of kept that inside of like a ball of anger
inside of me. And so I wanted something.
I wanted to feel something. So I would call upon those
demons and stuff and I would, I just wanted something to, I
wanted to feel something. I knew that whenever I did those
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things when we were kids, I knewthe feeling I felt inside like
power and you know, anger and strength and stuff like that.
And I went further into it and reached out to other people that
were into it. I started doing a lot of spells,
doing making spell bottles, doing spells on others, which
the person that had brought me up telling me about all this and
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teaching me these things specifically told me do not do
dark magic, do not do dark spells.
She went through something really tragic from doing
herself. And so that kind of gave me an
idea that, hey, there's something in this that I
shouldn't be messing with. They did say that, you know, as
long as you're not doing dark magic, it's OK.
And I just want for everybody out there to know that there's
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no such thing as white magic. It's all magic and it's all
Satan, it's all the devil. None of it's OK if it's not God,
it's not OK. So some of our listeners are
going to readily relate to your background as you're describing.
For others, this may be a brand new conversation.
So help help us understand when you're talking white magic
versus dark magic, what's the difference in these in these two
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things? What makes one?
What makes the distinction? White magic would be simple
things. Dark magic is more if you're
wanting somebody to hurt, if you're wanting to cause pain on
somebody else, if you're, if youanything, if you're doing it out
of anger, it's dark magic. If it's if you're wanting to
harm someone or wanting to causechaos bad in somebody's life,
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then that's dark magic. So then white magic, I would
imagine in the mind of those that are practicing, at least
one might believe in that state that you're actually doing good.
Would that be? Would that be reasonable?
To say from that people do believe that they are not doing
any harm in it. It's OK what they're doing.
But actually from what I've learned, your, your open up
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doorways, the demons, no matter what.
And those demons are going to manifest in you and your loved
ones and in your family and cause turmoil in your life.
But also I do want to go ahead and say for everyone out there,
there is power in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
You can anytime, no matter how scared you are, no matter what
happens, you can call upon JesusChrist and renounce, rebuke
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those spirits, those demons in the name of Jesus Christ.
Absolutely. So Katisha, you said something a
minute ago that's that's really huge for this conversation
because in the in the Deliverance dialogues, one of
the things we focus on is different pathways that lead to
demonization that that lead to demonic influence.
And kind of three big ones, as we've laid out in previous
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episodes are one is if somebody's living in compulsive
sin in their life. Another is a cult activity,
which of course any kind of witchcraft fits at least broadly
under that umbrella. But then one of the things we've
discussed previously is that from my research, at least, a
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majority of demonization actually has its root in one way
or another in traumatic life experiences.
And I heard you mention that along your path, you're
experiencing trauma. And so your response to that is
really all that you knew. Your response then is to try to
call on the the the powers, the deities as you knew them for
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help and for strength and all ofthose things.
How do you think all that playedout?
Like did that, do you do you feel like those experiences had
an impact on your mental or emotional health?
Or was it mainly spiritual? Like how when you think about
that, how do you feel like that impacted you as an individual in
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those in those seasons of life? I definitely feel it brought on
a lot of mental mental problems and I mean trauma in general.
Will caught will bring on mentalproblems PTSDCPTSD that's a big
one that most people have because they went through
something traumatic. And also, I do want for
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listeners to know that you do not have to be saved.
You do not have to believe in Jesus Christ, to call upon Jesus
Christ's name and say, I renounce this, I rebuke this in
the name of Jesus Christ. Your salvation does not have to
be earned. It's given.
You ask God, come into my life, forgive me my sins, God.
And even if you haven't made that step yet, you can still
call upon God and he will. He's there for you.
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Even if you're not following him, he's there for you.
I love that because you're so right.
God is actively desiring to bring us to himself.
So it doesn't have to be in a church.
It doesn't have to be in a normal setting.
When somebody gets to a place that they're saying I need help.
I love what you're saying. In that moment you can call in
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the name of Jesus Christ and know that he is there and he is
present to help you. We were talking about and you
said just saying, you know, whether you call them deities,
whether you call them demons. This is for some of our
listeners. It may be a matter of
perspective for us as born againChristians.
The New Testament is pretty clear that the false gods that
people worshipped, the Bible frames those as demonic powers.
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That is, they are malicious spiritual powers that are
desiring the destruction of the human race.
And one thing that we see is that people that are involved in
the occult long term tend to develop a lot of deep emotional
struggles. And I think you nailed it,
Katisha, from from from my perspective at least, you said
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the demons may actually be causing emotional or mental
disorders in some ways meaning this.
If demons have a real existence,and the Bible teaches that they
do, then they also have a voice.So a lot of times, while not
everybody that's hearing voices is being harassed by demons,
it's pretty, it stands to reasonfrom my perspective that if a
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demon is harassing someone, they're likely to be hearing
voices. They're likely to be
experiencing deep depression andsuicidal thoughts and all of
these things because the Bible teaches that the thief comes to
steal, to kill and to destroy. But Jesus said, I have come that
you might have life, and that more abundantly.
I did want to add also on the mental health part that once you
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know that you know that it's a deity demon causing those things
in you and you get free. You know, you ask Jesus Christ,
you know, you call upon his nameand you want freedom from those
things. You call upon God and he will
deliver you from those demons, but that in it everybody, he, it
works different for everybody. He may deliver you and you don't
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have any more problems, but you still have that mentality that
you've lived with. You may still have to, you know,
it's really good to still go to like a counselor or seek
professional help to see if there's anything else you need
to still work on within yourselfbecause they're still damaged.
You know, you may be free of that demon and the things it was
the voices it was given to you, you know, talking to you and
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whatnot, but you still have thatdamage there that you need to
work on through yourself. That's an important point I I
visited with, and thank you for raising that.
I visited back a while with Father Mark Quay, who is an
exorcist with the Anglican Church in North America.
And one of the things he said tome was that he refers almost all
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of those that they take through deliverance or exorcism to a
therapist for counseling. And basically what he said is
that he sees no negative to referring someone for
counseling, you know, because yes, there are the the impact of
the things we go through in our lives.
They are traumatizing in their own ways.
And I think one of the places that sometimes Christians have
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gotten it wrong that that we've gotten it wrong is that we
think, well, if we just cast outa demon that everything should
be great then. But the truth is, there is a
process of healing for people's minds and emotions from what
we've gone. Through.
And I really appreciate you raising that point because I
think some people may not realize that.
And so if they go through deliverance and then they still
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find theirself struggling with some depression or some anxiety
or whatever, they may be thinking, well, what if?
What if I'm still demonized? What if it didn't work?
What if this wasn't the answer? When the reality is God created
spirit, soul and body. And yes, we need spiritual
deliverance in some cases, but we do also need healing for our
minds. And you mentioned PTSD and
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CPTSD. For any of our listeners that
don't know, PTSD stands for posttraumatic stress disorder.
CPTSD is complex post traumatic stress disorder.
And while this is a very oversimplified explanation, the
difference, one of the differences would be this.
With CPTSD, people have experienced trauma that is now
manifesting itself in their physical health in some way or
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another that that they're often actually experiencing some type
of physical illness as a result of trauma.
And it's not always like it's either spiritual or it's
emotional or it's physical. We are a whole person.
We are a whole people. And it may be all of the above
kind of mixed in. And so healing may be holistic,
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just like our struggles didn't come just in just in one
singular way. So take me to that moment.
It's December 2023. You're surrendering your life to
Christ. Tell me that story.
I'll start in November. It's my birthday and it's my
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birthday month and I'd been around a person that was a very
firm believer in God. They went through a situation
and they gave their they live for the Lord and they were never
pushy towards me, but they told me that they prayed for me every
day for my salvation every day. And I would say, well, I know
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and he would never, ever, never be pushy, but he would I would
say, well, you know, you know I'm wicked, you know, I'm a
witch. And I say that jokingly.
Now it's not a joke, but it it'sso grateful that the Lord's
delivered me from that lifestyleis how I can light on it.
(26:30):
But so it was God was working itright, right then, you know,
he's already working on me. And I remember I got for my
birthday, he got me a Bible and I thought this is all I got for
my birthday. Like sure, you know, worthless,
I mean, and it's but it didn't take about a month later and I
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was crying, thanking him for that book because I felt like
once that book got placed in my hand, God knew God knew that he
had his way that I would listen to him because he my heart, my
heart was open and I was AI had just had my third kid.
You know, I nursed for a year and then I'd always struggle
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with really bad alcoholism. Really bad.
And it wasn't. But a week later and there I was
drinking, drinking a little bit more, drinking a little bit more
and I was working night shifts. So I drink during the day
thinking it's my night time now.Next thing I know I'm drinking a
30 pack a day back to where I was and within just a few weeks
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and I remember very clearly, I went to the back of my vehicle
to open it up, open up a 30 packand grab the first one.
And I just something changed inside my heart.
I turned around, didn't open it and I looked up in the sky.
I said, God, I need you, I need you.
And I didn't open that beer. I put it down.
I knew that I was going to go tochurch.
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I've people that I was working with said, hey, we go, we go to
the link church. You know, you should give it a
try. So I went in and I mean, I just
felt I knew God was talking to me.
God, because whenever I rewind alittle bit, whenever I hit the
ground and was crying, looking up was the first time God spoke
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to me. And he told me that I don't have
to, I don't have to do this anymore, that he has me, that he
loves me. And when he let me know, it just
broke me down. Not because I was going through
this because I knew that I was loved in a way that that I
didn't even think it was possible that I felt the love
that like the way a parent lovesyou, but more than that and
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that's almost unimaginable. So I just knew that he loved me
so much and he was going to get me through it.
I had no doubt in my mind that same month I went to church, I
got saved, I asked for forgiveness.
I let God come into my heart. Another few weeks later we had a
fire weekend at the link church and I got filled with the Holy
Spirit And I mean, it just turned my life around to where I
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think about what I watch, what Ilisten to, what I say, how I
react to everything. I, I want to know that what I'm
doing is reflecting God will to be mindful that what I do does
reflect God because people know that I follow God and God to my
heart. And I used to be scared when I
first came to him about, Oh no, Lord, don't convict me of this.
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But now every day I pray for conviction.
God, if I'm not walking in the path that you have for me, if
I'm stepping out of the path youhave for me, put that conviction
in my heart to turn towards Yourway that you have for me,
because your understanding is better than ours, Lord.
So you, you you receive that Bible as a gift.
You're like, Gee, thanks. Yeah.
(29:48):
And then, and I think that's that's normal.
What a gift. Thanks.
I'm wicked. And you gave me a Bible.
This is amazing. Yes.
But then at some point you open it and God start speaking to you
before you know you've surrendered your life to Christ
and he's transforming you. So Katisha, what, what changes
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have you noticed in yourself from before you came to Christ
versus now in any area of life? What?
What change do you feel like that's made in you?
Anger. I used to be a very, very angry,
mean person. There's a lot of people out
(30:29):
there that I bullied growing up.Even recently got told by a girl
that I was the reason why she wanted to kill herself every
day. And we talked for a long time
and became friends and just. That's the extent of how mean I
was. I was a very hateful person.
I was mean, I was bitter, I was angry, and God just took all
(30:52):
that out of me. I can't find myself being mean
to anybody. I, I, when I think of people, no
matter what they do, I think, you know what, God loves them so
much. How could I think any different
of them than to care about them?Because God loves them and he
wants what's best for them. God didn't make them to be
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whatever situation is, and that's not who they are.
They're a person. Just a couple more questions as
I as I want to just continue to kind of unpack your story a
little. When you when you came to
Christ. So it's so in your in in your
life before, before you experience salvation when you're
trying to process through life experiences, trauma, whatever
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you're calling upon these spiritual powers, demonic
entities for for help when you came to Christ, did all those
strongholds did they did they did they go away immediately?
Was there any moments of, were there any moments of deliverance
that you can think of when, whenyou, when you experienced
(31:59):
freedom, maybe to a greater extent from any of that?
Like how did that process play out?
Because it's not the same for everybody.
So now, while there's a process of sanctification that is of
putting off our old life and becoming more like Christ, that
happens in the life of every believer from the time that we
get saved, we're always growing in Christ.
We're always moving forward. But I'm really curious about,
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about your story. I, I always say that salvation
is the ultimate deliverance thatthere is, there is nothing that
topples the power of hell like the experience of being born
again that does it. Were there any other moments
that you feel like were key moments of deliverance for for
you that you would want to talk about or is it really did all of
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it basically happen in that moment for you?
I'm definitely in that moment, Ijust felt like like the weight
of my shoulders, just, you know,that all that weight that I've
been caring for years, I felt itgone.
Like I felt freedom. I knew and I in my heart and in
my mind that I was free. That all not none of that had a
(33:08):
hold on me and things like generational curses and bondage
and stuff like that that it was broken that it ends and you know
that God ended that with me because I asked him so my kids
won't have to go through things that I went through what my
parents went through because Godhas God has broke those chains.
(33:29):
There is and then also the it's a big part right there, the big
but the Holy Spirit will show you what you need to work on
when he's ready for you to work on it.
As in dealing with all deities, demons.
I had opened doors I'd hadn't realized.
And so I did have some deliverance needed from those
(33:51):
things. So when God, you know, they
revealed I seen a a demon and I was laying there trying to go
sleep and I thought I knew immediately I was really tired
and all I could think to do was God, I rebuke this in the name
of Jesus Christ. And I saw it move away from me
into under into the top of the doorway.
(34:14):
And so I reached out to somebodyand was like, hey, and through
them, I through God, through them, I got deliverance of those
things. And I feel that God reveals
those to you. And I still have mental health
struggles that I still face, which are getting a lot better.
And I just pray the Lord reveal to me whenever he's ready for me
(34:35):
to work on those things and he will he works on those IA lot of
my a few of my mental health diagnosis, I am a lot better.
I don't feel those those things anymore.
Some I'm still working on and but I have faith because I know
that God's in this with me and Iknow that God is in control.
(34:57):
So I don't worry. And also everybody I do struggle
with anxiety, but also I know that anxiety is a natural and if
you ever have anxiety, fear, youcan take those things that God
does not give me a spirit of fear.
God does not give me a spirit ofanxiety.
I renounce those things in the name of Jesus Christ.
Amen. I love what you're saying.
(35:20):
So you, you surrender yourself to Christ and then the Holy
Spirit begins to guide the process.
Yes. So it's not like you got to go
digging around. Hey, what do I need to deal
with? It's the Holy Spirit that was
directing you. And when you saw that Spirit in
your house, you knew by instinctyou might say it's time to
(35:41):
declare the name of Jesus Christand drive that out.
I remember not real life. You got saved.
You know, my wife and I and you had some conversations.
And as we're talking, you're saying these very kinds of
things with the Holy Spirit showed me this.
And so I did this and I rememberlooking at anime one time.
So I don't get anything that I can add to that.
You know, it's it's the process of discipleship.
(36:04):
But while people have a role to teach us and guide us, Katisha,
one of the things I've seen in your life is that the Holy
Spirit really has been your disciple in many ways.
I mean, he has directed things from the very beginning.
You mentioned, you've mentioned a few Times Now that there's a
need for people to repent of some things and to renounce
(36:27):
things from their lives. While we've talked about that in
some previous episodes, if anybody's not familiar with the
language, maybe you haven't listened to those previous
episodes, the the two words havekind of different meanings.
So to repent, the word repent comes from the Greek word
metanoia, which literally means to change your mind.
So when we're talking about repenting, we're talking about
(36:47):
turning from our sin into Jesus Christ.
Literally, we allow our mindset to shift so that we stop looking
at sin or at worship of other entities as positive things.
And we begin to realize God has more for me than that.
The Bible says godly sorrow works or brings about
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repentance. So we begin to become sorrow for
for our our past actions. And we say to God, Lord, I'm
turning from this. I need your help to renounce
something the Scripture says, the apostle Paul said.
But we have renounced the hiddenthings of dishonesty.
That's like a declaration that there's just things I'm not
(37:30):
going to have anything to do with anymore.
It's when when we worship anyoneor anything, it's like entering
into a contract with that spirit.
And so when we entered into those contracts, if we've been
involved in the occult or in witchcraft or anything of that
sort, it may be necessary for people to get out of those
(37:51):
contracts by saying I renounce that spirit, I renounce, I
renounce it if they, I always tell people if you've worshipped
something by name, then renounceit by name, whatever your
association was declare. I'm cutting myself off from that
because although our salvation is instantaneous and God brings
(38:12):
deliverance, sometimes demon powers keep trying to oppress
and attack and coming back and they try to make claims that
they really don't have any more that hey, I've none of demons to
say I own you, you're mine, whatever.
I had a friend that was his family came out of Hinduism and
one day he wakes up and there's this demon that's got itself
(38:35):
adorned up in some like like some kind of majestic God that
tells his name and he says, I own you.
Well, here Abel is a born again Christian, right?
And his father had turned from Hinduism and to Jesus Christ.
And Abel says, I, I belong to Jesus, not to you.
And and this thing goes on and tells him, well, your
(38:58):
grandfather dedicated you to me when you were a baby.
You're mine. So did that demon own him?
Absolutely not, as he affirmatively said, I belong to
Jesus Christ. But in that moment he determined
to renounce that spirit to say I'm not my grandfather, I am
not, I am not yours, I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
(39:21):
So I think one place the enemy deceives people sometimes is he
tricks us into thinking that he has power over us.
He really doesn't. And so when we talk about
repenting of our sins and then renouncing those false, those
false gods, those false spirits,those demons from our life,
really what it is is a declaration.
I will have nothing to do with that.
(39:42):
I am a servant of Jesus and we're declaring ourselves
squarely under the the power of God.
Katisha, you said something thatI think is important for our
listeners to realize You're saved, you've been delivered,
you're full of the Holy Spirit. Still deal with some anxiety
sometimes and that's OK, right? Because as you said, Jesus may
(40:04):
be planning to bring some more healing.
And at other times, in other ways, there are people that
sometimes think, well, maybe I'mless spiritual because I have
these particular struggles. I had the struggle with anxiety
or whatever, and nothing could be further from the truth.
The reality is there's, there's,there's a whole lot of different
things that contribute to that. There's medical, there's medical
issues that can contribute our life experiences, our our
(40:25):
memories. Our current context, you know,
work all these different things and it's OK for us to just
admit, you know what, I still have some struggles.
As a matter of fact, so do I. What you said a minute ago that
I want to take a second and justacknowledge was, and I don't
(40:46):
know exactly how you said it, but it was something this effect
concerning anxiety that, you know, sometimes you need to
sometimes you need to renounce that as well.
So what do we mean by that? Well, on the one hand, can
anxiety be caused by spiritual harassment?
Of course it can. But even if it's coming from
very natural causes, it's very appropriate, I think to
(41:08):
sometimes say, you know what? I experienced anxiety, but it
doesn't own me. It doesn't define who I am, what
defines me as I am a child living God.
And Katisha, when I see you in church on Sunday morning, I
think you are an embodiment of the joy of the Lord for me that
like when, when I see you, that's what I think.
(41:30):
That's what the joy of the Lord looks like in somebody's life.
Is there any, are there any final things that that you think
it'd be important for our listeners to know either from
your personal story or in general on this topic?
And, and kind of in addition to that, if there happens to be
anybody listening that still practicing Wiccan or witchcraft
(41:56):
of any sort, is there anything you would say to them?
Something I really appreciate about your stories.
At no point in our in our conversation have you suggested
that people that are doing this are more evil or or whatever
than other people that these areeach of our pasts and our
upbringings and things have predisposed us to different
things. And I love that in your story
(42:17):
you came to Jesus Christ, but I've not heard any sense of
condemnation toward any other direction anywhere in this.
Nonetheless, there may be peoplejust like you that they've got
people in their life talking to him about Christ and they're
going, Hey, back off. You know who I am.
This is this is not what I am. What would you say to others
(42:38):
that are that are in whether it's Wiccan or some type of
similar type lifestyle or I knowyou said you struggled with
addiction for a lot of years. What would you say to somebody
in some of those past scenarios like that?
For people that are currently Wiccan or into witchcraft, and I
do have some people that are dear to me and it I share the
(43:00):
Lord with them, of course, but I'm not going to be pushy or say
you have to believe it's going to be the best thing for you.
I know that it would be the bestthing for them, but you want to
lead them and just pray for themevery single day.
And I'm always praying for the people I care about and people I
don't know for them to have the softening of their hearts, to
(43:22):
want to listen to the gospel, towant to be saved.
I do want to say that there is alot of, there's a lot of stuff
that goes on in your life. A lot of hard times, it seems
like every day is just a dark day.
And the things that you're doingin being Wiccan and following
those ways is against God and those things, you're allowing
(43:46):
the demons to lead your life instead of God leading your
life. And it makes your life really,
really hard. And you seem like you have a lot
of struggles. And if you could turn from those
things, even if you you're not sure if you just give, give God
a chance and see if that stuff doesn't stop, if you stop having
(44:06):
hard times, if you stop going through such a dark, dark, dark
period. Because I know that since I've
turned to God, I am filled with happiness.
I know that even through a hard time, God's not going to put me
through something that I can't, that I can't handle.
And I know that he has a purposeand an intention for everything
and that his ways and just you're always looking for
(44:30):
something to fill you up, whether it be witchcraft, you're
doing reading spells, you're wanting your fill empty inside.
And I feel a lot of people know that empty feeling inside.
I felt that empty way. I try to fill it with different
substances, with drugs, with alcohol, with people, but
(44:51):
nothing can fill that the way that God can.
And I fit truly believe that we're all intended to have God
in us to fill that because only God can feel that.
And you won't have that emptiness anymore.
You'll be filled with the fruitsof the Spirit, joy, peace,
happiness, love. So Katisha, you've shared some
(45:12):
phenomenal things today. We began our conversation with
you sharing how your own background was multi
generational witchcraft and one of those early experiences with
somebody that was actively worshipping Satan, at least in
(45:33):
in her mind. And now here you are serving
Jesus and your mom. As you reflect on that, what's
what's that mean to you as you look at where you are now versus
where you came from? Just kind of talk to us about
(45:54):
that. I'm just definitely very, very
thankful. But I know my children don't
have to go through the worries that I did.
They don't have to look back andsay, well, my great grandmother
was this witch and she supposedly already sold all of
(46:14):
our souls, all of her heirs, allof her children, grandchildren
to the devil. So does that mean I belong?
No, my kids know they don't belong to the devil.
They will never have that worry because they are blood bot
children of God they've gave. I have surrendered my life to
God and my children have surrendered their lives to God.
And we know that we serve the Lord Almighty God, and Satan has
(46:38):
no control over us. Amen, Amen and.
No hold. I love what the scripture says
when in the passage that so manypeople used to talk about
generational curses where it says God visits the iniquity of
the fathers upon the sons to thethird and 4th generation of
those that hate him. But we miss the other part.
It says in his blessings are to 1000 generations.
(47:00):
And so when you surrendered yourlife to Christ, that past curse
is broken, and the blessings of God are released upon your
family line.
There was a girl about age 2 andher mother was trying to
sacrifice her to Satan because she was a witch and she believed
that in Satan's eyes she would be elevated by being able to
give birth and sacrifice her children.
Someone had walked in and stopped that from happening.
That woman grew up to have children herself and during the
meantime, two of her siblings, they died and it's believed that
(00:24):
that mother killed them at different times to sacrifice
them to Satan. That woman has her children, the
grandmother that has sacrificed two children previously there
were situations and she got to see them and be around them for
a short period of time and things seem to be going OK until
1 evening. She grabbed a butcher knife and
started to chase all six children around.
(00:47):
Well, one was still young. So five children around saying
I'm going to kill you, I'm goingto sacrifice you to Satan and
broke the doors down, broke another door down trying to get
to the mom and the five childrento kill and sacrifice each and
every one of them is what she was continuously saying.
Thank the Lord. Cop showed up, got her out of
(01:09):
there and the children are all safe to this day.
And I want to share this with you because I am a grandchild of
that woman that did those terrible things.
Conversations like this are onesthat some of our listeners may
(01:29):
be a bit taken back by. For others, it's going to seem
very normal. The reality is this, When we
talk about sacrifice, witchcraft, Satanism, other
forms of paganism, or the occult, we may be tempted to
assume that those are primarily occurring in far off places.
(01:52):
Yet the individual that we interviewed today speaks of
these things in a multi generational fashion, having
occurred right here in Arkansas.The reality is that
conversations about witchcraft and the occult are ones that we
very much need to be having because they're happening
(02:15):
everywhere in our society. If as Christians, we don't
believe people are talking aboutthis, we're simply not paying
attention. And in fact, the Bible has much
to say about it. And so sometimes when people say
to me as a born again believer, hey, why are you speaking
against these things? Well, from a biblical
perspective, it's because the Bible does.
(02:38):
From a practical and psychological perspective, it's
because I see often those that get deeply involved with the
occult, it has a disintegrating effect long term on their mind.
The effects are actually catastrophic on the individual
because the devil makes big promises.
(03:00):
The Bible says these transform into an Angel of light, but in
the end, devastation always finds its way back around.
Do not be deceived. Darkness is lurking around the
corner. When we cast off biblical truth
(03:20):
in favor of other paths to power, there's devastating
effects. In Deuteronomy chapter 18 and
verse 10 and following, we read There shall not be found among
you anyone that makes his son ordaughter to pass through the
fire. Now pause, lest we miss that
some people have misrepresented the Old Testament text like it's
(03:43):
unnecessarily harsh. But because of the customs of
the nation, God's having to tellhis people that they can't burn
their kids alive, Say. Well, Robbie, that surely wasn't
happening. Actually it was because the
worship of the God Molech included child sacrifice through
incineration. If you will.
(04:05):
Let's start reading again. There should not be found among
you anyone that makes his son ordaughter to pass through the
fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times.
This includes horoscopes and a wide array of things of that
sort. Or an enchanter, or a witch, or
(04:28):
a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard,
or a necromancer. Necromancy is the practice of
attempting to communicate with the dead through demonic agency.
For all that do these things arean abomination unto the Lord,
(04:51):
And because of these abominations, the Lord your God
is driving them out from before you.
I want to turn over and share a couple more passages before we
we move on into today's interview.
Leviticus 18, verse 26. God told the people, But you
shall therefore keep my statutesand my decrees, and you shall
(05:14):
not commit any of these abominations, either the native
citizen or any foreigner who sojourns among you.
For the people of the land who were before you committed all
these abominations, and the landbecame defiled.
Now check this out verse 28, lest the land vomits you out
(05:34):
also when you defile it as it vomited out the nations that
were before you. God is not just warning against
engaging in these things becauseit's wrong.
He's saying that creation itselfreacts against evil, that
creation itself reacts against these abominations, and that the
(05:57):
the land, the earth itself criesout for it to stop.
I wonder because the common conversation, the popular
conversation these days is for people to talk about what the
universe told them. Now, I believe that what people
are generally thinking is the universe talking is either God
or a demon. But if I'm going to go with that
(06:17):
creation, the universe talks, I'm going to go with Leviticus
18. If we want to listen to the
universe, listen to this, that God said the land itself, the
earth itself is reacting againstthe evil that's in it and it's
vomiting people out. There are areas that become
uninhabitable because of the gross levels.
(06:39):
Of evil that are committed thereone more passage then I want to
get right into today's interviewbecause it's.
Truly phenomenal Isaiah chapter 8 verse 19.
When they say to you seek after mediums and the Wizards who
whisper and mutter, should not apeople seek after their God?
(07:01):
Should they consult the dead forthe living to the law and to the
testimony? If they do not speak according
to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
So God puts his light in us, butwhen we allow our souls to be
darkened, then the temptation togo after other sources begins to
(07:26):
really arise. Now, having said all that, there
could be the temptation among those that have never really
known anybody that was involved in witchcraft for the occult to
assume that they must just appear to be the most evil
people ever. That's just simply not the case
(07:47):
in in in many situations. In fact, those who practice
witchcraft are often our neighbors, friends, our
relatives, Co workers that overall have a desire to do much
good in the world. So I'm not speaking to motives,
(08:08):
but I will. Say actions can be very
dangerous. When I first met Katisha who
were interviewing today, it was in our local church.
My first observation was here isthe mom that loves her kids.
She's got three awesome boys. She gave her life to Christ in
(08:29):
the latter part of 2023. And we, we had an opportunity,
our families just to get to knoweach other.
And I am so thankful for her willingness to share her story.
At no moment in my interactions with Katisha did I think, wow,
she must have came from a very evil past, a very terrible
(08:53):
background. She's just somebody we worship
with. So we're going to get right into
this interview today. All right.
So thanks for joining us today for the Deliverance Dialogues.
I am here, here with my host Timothy, my Co host Timothy
(09:18):
Willis, who is at this moment invisible to you because he has
no microphone, but I can see himright here.
I'm also joined by a dear friend, the sister in Christ
from our local church, Katisha. And I'm going to let her just
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about herself.
So Katisha, tell us, tell us whoyou are and what should we know
(09:42):
about you as an individual? Well, I'm my name's Katisha
Siler. I was born and raised here in
Clarksville, AR. I am a mother of three wonderful
boys. I I've been saved since December
2023 and I attend Link Church and I absolutely love it.
I love the people there and I love the environment.
(10:03):
It's a really wonderful place tobe.
So Katisha, it's been such a absolute joy getting to worship
with you and getting to know your, your family, your boys and
just watching your your walk with Christ grow and develop has
been a super big encouragement to me and my wife and our
family. And I wanted to sit down with
(10:24):
you today just to give you an opportunity to tell your story.
So when most people, many of ourlisteners do not attend our
church, but for those that do, they're going to look over and
they're going to see you worshiping Jesus and the smile
on your face that seems to just obsessively always be there, it
seems like, which is which I, I love.
(10:45):
But they may not know much aboutyour back story.
So you mentioned that you came to Christ in December 23.
What was your background before that?
Did you come from a Christian background?
Where were you from? Another background kind of kind
of tell us a little bit about your back story.
I did for your struggle with addictions.
And I do think that led to a lotof how I was brought up.
(11:07):
I had a little bit here and there of going to church, but it
wasn't very persistent. It was maybe a month or two here
and there. But ultimately from the youngest
age I can remember, I was raisedin the household and we we were
Wiccan and I didn't really thinkmuch of it.
That's just, and I never even heard the word for the longest
(11:28):
time, maybe more as a teenager, I thought, oh, OK, this doing
readings and talking to spirits and asking deities and demons or
whatnot to, you know, for their powers is just, we didn't have a
name to it. It's just what we did.
And then growing up teenager, I was like, OK, there's a name to
it. And there's more I can get into
(11:49):
which I don't recommend at all for anybody.
I do remember very clearly, something I always look forward
to was the tarot readings. Every year for our birthdays, we
would get a special reading is what they said, and we would
call upon it wasn't God. So that's, that's a big point
(12:10):
there. We would call upon other
deities. We didn't call them demons, but
that's actually what they are. That's what I know them as to
be. And we would call upon them and
ask them about our past, about our future, which of course now
I know that only God knows thoseanswers.
Sure. And you should only call upon
God for anything like that. So I have a question, and I want
(12:33):
you to jump right back into that.
So you said now you know that they're demons.
At the time you didn't think of it like that, though.
So you're thinking of these as other gods, other deities, Yes.
Did you, so did you, did you call upon them by name or how
like in your mindset at the time, how were you viewing
those, those spirits, I guess? Almost like you watch cartoons
(12:56):
and you see people have like superpowers.
It it just kind of made me thinklike that.
Like, you know, we would call itsometimes we would just, we
would call upon their names. We would, they would have a name
and we would call upon them. I was told her to learn that
this is the deity of strength orwisdom.
And so would call upon, ask for strength and then we would do
something crazy strong. You know, we felt something.
(13:19):
We were kids and so it was very exciting to us.
So we were drawn towards it. So just kind of another follow
up question. I was talking to somebody not
real long ago about about Wiccanand they respond this, well, I
didn't even know that we had any, any Wiccan churches or
temples around here is the way they say now.
So I don't really think that's exactly how this how this works.
So from that aspect, do do Wiccans have a place that they
(13:42):
gather to worship or is it more of like a private devotional
type practice? More private as far as I know,
like most people that I knew we they would create their own
altars kind of like I guess for God, you would create an altar
at your house where you would goto to pray for him.
People that were friends and family, they would gather
together sometimes and they would get together and have
(14:03):
rituals. You know, a lot of times I do
remember though us kids was joined for that.
But then for a part of it, we would be told to go to the rooms
and if we were to come out that the witches would let them know
and we would see stuff in the room in the closet and such.
So we knew something was watching us and going to report
back to them. So we we would listen.
So you are actually, while they are gathering in the other rooms
(14:26):
and they're telling you these witches, we're going to let them
know. And I understand you correctly.
You were, you were actually seeing a figure of some sort.
Watch. Absolutely yes.
It was terrifying. It went from having just it
seemed like so much fun to pure fear.
OK, wow. I mean, that's a lot.
That's a lot for a child to process.
So like when when you what's theearliest ages that you remember
(14:47):
that type of experience? Six.
No. About 7676 and a half.
Seven. So I understand when we're
raising something that's just normal to us.
First of all, I mean, that's regardless of what your faith
upbringing is and such. Was there a point in your
upbringing that you decided, hey, I want to learn more about
this or alternatively, that you began to question it.
(15:11):
Do you remember any of those thoughts like through your teen
years? Or was it, I know you were you
were an adult when you when you surrendered your life to crass,
but just within your own mindset, how did that, how did
that play out as you grew up andgot a little bit older?
Well, there was a few times my parents were split up, but I
know that sometimes a few times with my dad, we would go to
(15:31):
church, never really for more than two or three months.
But I do know I didn't know I was a child, but I didn't know
what it was that that was just like the best, happiest months
we would have. And then everything would go
back to like turmoil, the way itwas just really hard life.
But I do know as I got in my teenage years, I was angry a
(15:53):
lot. I went through trauma and abuse
and I just kind of kept that inside of like a ball of anger
inside of me. And so I wanted something.
I wanted to feel something. So I would call upon those
demons and stuff and I would, I just wanted something to, I
wanted to feel something. I knew that whenever I did those
(16:14):
things when we were kids, I knewthe feeling I felt inside like
power and you know, anger and strength and stuff like that.
And I went further into it and reached out to other people that
were into it. I started doing a lot of spells,
doing making spell bottles, doing spells on others, which
the person that had brought me up telling me about all this and
(16:36):
teaching me these things specifically told me do not do
dark magic, do not do dark spells.
She went through something really tragic from doing
herself. And so that kind of gave me an
idea that, hey, there's something in this that I
shouldn't be messing with. They did say that, you know, as
long as you're not doing dark magic, it's OK.
And I just want for everybody out there to know that there's
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no such thing as white magic. It's all magic and it's all
Satan, it's all the devil. None of it's OK if it's not God,
it's not OK. So some of our listeners are
going to readily relate to your background as you're describing.
For others, this may be a brand new conversation.
So help help us understand when you're talking white magic
versus dark magic, what's the difference in these in these two
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things? What makes one?
What makes the distinction? White magic would be simple
things. Dark magic is more if you're
wanting somebody to hurt, if you're wanting to cause pain on
somebody else, if you're, if youanything, if you're doing it out
of anger, it's dark magic. If it's if you're wanting to
harm someone or wanting to causechaos bad in somebody's life,
(17:42):
then that's dark magic. So then white magic, I would
imagine in the mind of those that are practicing, at least
one might believe in that state that you're actually doing good.
Would that be? Would that be reasonable?
To say from that people do believe that they are not doing
any harm in it. It's OK what they're doing.
But actually from what I've learned, your, your open up
(18:04):
doorways, the demons, no matter what.
And those demons are going to manifest in you and your loved
ones and in your family and cause turmoil in your life.
But also I do want to go ahead and say for everyone out there,
there is power in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
You can anytime, no matter how scared you are, no matter what
happens, you can call upon JesusChrist and renounce, rebuke
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those spirits, those demons in the name of Jesus Christ.
Absolutely. So Katisha, you said something a
minute ago that's that's really huge for this conversation
because in the in the Deliverance dialogues, one of
the things we focus on is different pathways that lead to
demonization that that lead to demonic influence.
And kind of three big ones, as we've laid out in previous
(18:48):
episodes are one is if somebody's living in compulsive
sin in their life. Another is a cult activity,
which of course any kind of witchcraft fits at least broadly
under that umbrella. But then one of the things we've
discussed previously is that from my research, at least, a
(19:08):
majority of demonization actually has its root in one way
or another in traumatic life experiences.
And I heard you mention that along your path, you're
experiencing trauma. And so your response to that is
really all that you knew. Your response then is to try to
call on the the the powers, the deities as you knew them for
(19:31):
help and for strength and all ofthose things.
How do you think all that playedout?
Like did that, do you do you feel like those experiences had
an impact on your mental or emotional health?
Or was it mainly spiritual? Like how when you think about
that, how do you feel like that impacted you as an individual in
(19:54):
those in those seasons of life? I definitely feel it brought on
a lot of mental mental problems and I mean trauma in general.
Will caught will bring on mentalproblems PTSDCPTSD that's a big
one that most people have because they went through
something traumatic. And also, I do want for
(20:16):
listeners to know that you do not have to be saved.
You do not have to believe in Jesus Christ, to call upon Jesus
Christ's name and say, I renounce this, I rebuke this in
the name of Jesus Christ. Your salvation does not have to
be earned. It's given.
You ask God, come into my life, forgive me my sins, God.
And even if you haven't made that step yet, you can still
call upon God and he will. He's there for you.
(20:37):
Even if you're not following him, he's there for you.
I love that because you're so right.
God is actively desiring to bring us to himself.
So it doesn't have to be in a church.
It doesn't have to be in a normal setting.
When somebody gets to a place that they're saying I need help.
I love what you're saying. In that moment you can call in
(20:59):
the name of Jesus Christ and know that he is there and he is
present to help you. We were talking about and you
said just saying, you know, whether you call them deities,
whether you call them demons. This is for some of our
listeners. It may be a matter of
perspective for us as born againChristians.
The New Testament is pretty clear that the false gods that
people worshipped, the Bible frames those as demonic powers.
(21:23):
That is, they are malicious spiritual powers that are
desiring the destruction of the human race.
And one thing that we see is that people that are involved in
the occult long term tend to develop a lot of deep emotional
struggles. And I think you nailed it,
Katisha, from from from my perspective at least, you said
(21:45):
the demons may actually be causing emotional or mental
disorders in some ways meaning this.
If demons have a real existence,and the Bible teaches that they
do, then they also have a voice.So a lot of times, while not
everybody that's hearing voices is being harassed by demons,
it's pretty, it stands to reasonfrom my perspective that if a
(22:06):
demon is harassing someone, they're likely to be hearing
voices. They're likely to be
experiencing deep depression andsuicidal thoughts and all of
these things because the Bible teaches that the thief comes to
steal, to kill and to destroy. But Jesus said, I have come that
you might have life, and that more abundantly.
I did want to add also on the mental health part that once you
(22:32):
know that you know that it's a deity demon causing those things
in you and you get free. You know, you ask Jesus Christ,
you know, you call upon his nameand you want freedom from those
things. You call upon God and he will
deliver you from those demons, but that in it everybody, he, it
works different for everybody. He may deliver you and you don't
(22:54):
have any more problems, but you still have that mentality that
you've lived with. You may still have to, you know,
it's really good to still go to like a counselor or seek
professional help to see if there's anything else you need
to still work on within yourselfbecause they're still damaged.
You know, you may be free of that demon and the things it was
the voices it was given to you, you know, talking to you and
(23:15):
whatnot, but you still have thatdamage there that you need to
work on through yourself. That's an important point I I
visited with, and thank you for raising that.
I visited back a while with Father Mark Quay, who is an
exorcist with the Anglican Church in North America.
And one of the things he said tome was that he refers almost all
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of those that they take through deliverance or exorcism to a
therapist for counseling. And basically what he said is
that he sees no negative to referring someone for
counseling, you know, because yes, there are the the impact of
the things we go through in our lives.
They are traumatizing in their own ways.
And I think one of the places that sometimes Christians have
(24:01):
gotten it wrong that that we've gotten it wrong is that we
think, well, if we just cast outa demon that everything should
be great then. But the truth is, there is a
process of healing for people's minds and emotions from what
we've gone. Through.
And I really appreciate you raising that point because I
think some people may not realize that.
And so if they go through deliverance and then they still
(24:22):
find theirself struggling with some depression or some anxiety
or whatever, they may be thinking, well, what if?
What if I'm still demonized? What if it didn't work?
What if this wasn't the answer? When the reality is God created
spirit, soul and body. And yes, we need spiritual
deliverance in some cases, but we do also need healing for our
minds. And you mentioned PTSD and
(24:43):
CPTSD. For any of our listeners that
don't know, PTSD stands for posttraumatic stress disorder.
CPTSD is complex post traumatic stress disorder.
And while this is a very oversimplified explanation, the
difference, one of the differences would be this.
With CPTSD, people have experienced trauma that is now
manifesting itself in their physical health in some way or
(25:04):
another that that they're often actually experiencing some type
of physical illness as a result of trauma.
And it's not always like it's either spiritual or it's
emotional or it's physical. We are a whole person.
We are a whole people. And it may be all of the above
kind of mixed in. And so healing may be holistic,
(25:28):
just like our struggles didn't come just in just in one
singular way. So take me to that moment.
It's December 2023. You're surrendering your life to
Christ. Tell me that story.
I'll start in November. It's my birthday and it's my
(25:49):
birthday month and I'd been around a person that was a very
firm believer in God. They went through a situation
and they gave their they live for the Lord and they were never
pushy towards me, but they told me that they prayed for me every
day for my salvation every day. And I would say, well, I know
(26:10):
and he would never, ever, never be pushy, but he would I would
say, well, you know, you know I'm wicked, you know, I'm a
witch. And I say that jokingly.
Now it's not a joke, but it it'sso grateful that the Lord's
delivered me from that lifestyleis how I can light on it.
(26:30):
But so it was God was working itright, right then, you know,
he's already working on me. And I remember I got for my
birthday, he got me a Bible and I thought this is all I got for
my birthday. Like sure, you know, worthless,
I mean, and it's but it didn't take about a month later and I
(26:51):
was crying, thanking him for that book because I felt like
once that book got placed in my hand, God knew God knew that he
had his way that I would listen to him because he my heart, my
heart was open and I was AI had just had my third kid.
You know, I nursed for a year and then I'd always struggle
(27:13):
with really bad alcoholism. Really bad.
And it wasn't. But a week later and there I was
drinking, drinking a little bit more, drinking a little bit more
and I was working night shifts. So I drink during the day
thinking it's my night time now.Next thing I know I'm drinking a
30 pack a day back to where I was and within just a few weeks
(27:34):
and I remember very clearly, I went to the back of my vehicle
to open it up, open up a 30 packand grab the first one.
And I just something changed inside my heart.
I turned around, didn't open it and I looked up in the sky.
I said, God, I need you, I need you.
And I didn't open that beer. I put it down.
I knew that I was going to go tochurch.
(27:57):
I've people that I was working with said, hey, we go, we go to
the link church. You know, you should give it a
try. So I went in and I mean, I just
felt I knew God was talking to me.
God, because whenever I rewind alittle bit, whenever I hit the
ground and was crying, looking up was the first time God spoke
(28:18):
to me. And he told me that I don't have
to, I don't have to do this anymore, that he has me, that he
loves me. And when he let me know, it just
broke me down. Not because I was going through
this because I knew that I was loved in a way that that I
didn't even think it was possible that I felt the love
that like the way a parent lovesyou, but more than that and
(28:41):
that's almost unimaginable. So I just knew that he loved me
so much and he was going to get me through it.
I had no doubt in my mind that same month I went to church, I
got saved, I asked for forgiveness.
I let God come into my heart. Another few weeks later we had a
fire weekend at the link church and I got filled with the Holy
Spirit And I mean, it just turned my life around to where I
(29:05):
think about what I watch, what Ilisten to, what I say, how I
react to everything. I, I want to know that what I'm
doing is reflecting God will to be mindful that what I do does
reflect God because people know that I follow God and God to my
heart. And I used to be scared when I
first came to him about, Oh no, Lord, don't convict me of this.
(29:26):
But now every day I pray for conviction.
God, if I'm not walking in the path that you have for me, if
I'm stepping out of the path youhave for me, put that conviction
in my heart to turn towards Yourway that you have for me,
because your understanding is better than ours, Lord.
So you, you you receive that Bible as a gift.
You're like, Gee, thanks. Yeah.
(29:48):
And then, and I think that's that's normal.
What a gift. Thanks.
I'm wicked. And you gave me a Bible.
This is amazing. Yes.
But then at some point you open it and God start speaking to you
before you know you've surrendered your life to Christ
and he's transforming you. So Katisha, what, what changes
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have you noticed in yourself from before you came to Christ
versus now in any area of life? What?
What change do you feel like that's made in you?
Anger. I used to be a very, very angry,
mean person. There's a lot of people out
(30:29):
there that I bullied growing up.Even recently got told by a girl
that I was the reason why she wanted to kill herself every
day. And we talked for a long time
and became friends and just. That's the extent of how mean I
was. I was a very hateful person.
I was mean, I was bitter, I was angry, and God just took all
(30:52):
that out of me. I can't find myself being mean
to anybody. I, I, when I think of people, no
matter what they do, I think, you know what, God loves them so
much. How could I think any different
of them than to care about them?Because God loves them and he
wants what's best for them. God didn't make them to be
(31:14):
whatever situation is, and that's not who they are.
They're a person. Just a couple more questions as
I as I want to just continue to kind of unpack your story a
little. When you when you came to
Christ. So it's so in your in in your
life before, before you experience salvation when you're
trying to process through life experiences, trauma, whatever
(31:34):
you're calling upon these spiritual powers, demonic
entities for for help when you came to Christ, did all those
strongholds did they did they did they go away immediately?
Was there any moments of, were there any moments of deliverance
that you can think of when, whenyou, when you experienced
(31:59):
freedom, maybe to a greater extent from any of that?
Like how did that process play out?
Because it's not the same for everybody.
So now, while there's a process of sanctification that is of
putting off our old life and becoming more like Christ, that
happens in the life of every believer from the time that we
get saved, we're always growing in Christ.
We're always moving forward. But I'm really curious about,
(32:21):
about your story. I, I always say that salvation
is the ultimate deliverance thatthere is, there is nothing that
topples the power of hell like the experience of being born
again that does it. Were there any other moments
that you feel like were key moments of deliverance for for
you that you would want to talk about or is it really did all of
(32:46):
it basically happen in that moment for you?
I'm definitely in that moment, Ijust felt like like the weight
of my shoulders, just, you know,that all that weight that I've
been caring for years, I felt itgone.
Like I felt freedom. I knew and I in my heart and in
my mind that I was free. That all not none of that had a
(33:08):
hold on me and things like generational curses and bondage
and stuff like that that it was broken that it ends and you know
that God ended that with me because I asked him so my kids
won't have to go through things that I went through what my
parents went through because Godhas God has broke those chains.
(33:29):
There is and then also the it's a big part right there, the big
but the Holy Spirit will show you what you need to work on
when he's ready for you to work on it.
As in dealing with all deities, demons.
I had opened doors I'd hadn't realized.
And so I did have some deliverance needed from those
(33:51):
things. So when God, you know, they
revealed I seen a a demon and I was laying there trying to go
sleep and I thought I knew immediately I was really tired
and all I could think to do was God, I rebuke this in the name
of Jesus Christ. And I saw it move away from me
into under into the top of the doorway.
(34:14):
And so I reached out to somebodyand was like, hey, and through
them, I through God, through them, I got deliverance of those
things. And I feel that God reveals
those to you. And I still have mental health
struggles that I still face, which are getting a lot better.
And I just pray the Lord reveal to me whenever he's ready for me
(34:35):
to work on those things and he will he works on those IA lot of
my a few of my mental health diagnosis, I am a lot better.
I don't feel those those things anymore.
Some I'm still working on and but I have faith because I know
that God's in this with me and Iknow that God is in control.
(34:57):
So I don't worry. And also everybody I do struggle
with anxiety, but also I know that anxiety is a natural and if
you ever have anxiety, fear, youcan take those things that God
does not give me a spirit of fear.
God does not give me a spirit ofanxiety.
I renounce those things in the name of Jesus Christ.
Amen. I love what you're saying.
(35:20):
So you, you surrender yourself to Christ and then the Holy
Spirit begins to guide the process.
Yes. So it's not like you got to go
digging around. Hey, what do I need to deal
with? It's the Holy Spirit that was
directing you. And when you saw that Spirit in
your house, you knew by instinctyou might say it's time to
(35:41):
declare the name of Jesus Christand drive that out.
I remember not real life. You got saved.
You know, my wife and I and you had some conversations.
And as we're talking, you're saying these very kinds of
things with the Holy Spirit showed me this.
And so I did this and I rememberlooking at anime one time.
So I don't get anything that I can add to that.
You know, it's it's the process of discipleship.
(36:04):
But while people have a role to teach us and guide us, Katisha,
one of the things I've seen in your life is that the Holy
Spirit really has been your disciple in many ways.
I mean, he has directed things from the very beginning.
You mentioned, you've mentioned a few Times Now that there's a
need for people to repent of some things and to renounce
(36:27):
things from their lives. While we've talked about that in
some previous episodes, if anybody's not familiar with the
language, maybe you haven't listened to those previous
episodes, the the two words havekind of different meanings.
So to repent, the word repent comes from the Greek word
metanoia, which literally means to change your mind.
So when we're talking about repenting, we're talking about
(36:47):
turning from our sin into Jesus Christ.
Literally, we allow our mindset to shift so that we stop looking
at sin or at worship of other entities as positive things.
And we begin to realize God has more for me than that.
The Bible says godly sorrow works or brings about
(37:10):
repentance. So we begin to become sorrow for
for our our past actions. And we say to God, Lord, I'm
turning from this. I need your help to renounce
something the Scripture says, the apostle Paul said.
But we have renounced the hiddenthings of dishonesty.
That's like a declaration that there's just things I'm not
(37:30):
going to have anything to do with anymore.
It's when when we worship anyoneor anything, it's like entering
into a contract with that spirit.
And so when we entered into those contracts, if we've been
involved in the occult or in witchcraft or anything of that
sort, it may be necessary for people to get out of those
(37:51):
contracts by saying I renounce that spirit, I renounce, I
renounce it if they, I always tell people if you've worshipped
something by name, then renounceit by name, whatever your
association was declare. I'm cutting myself off from that
because although our salvation is instantaneous and God brings
(38:12):
deliverance, sometimes demon powers keep trying to oppress
and attack and coming back and they try to make claims that
they really don't have any more that hey, I've none of demons to
say I own you, you're mine, whatever.
I had a friend that was his family came out of Hinduism and
one day he wakes up and there's this demon that's got itself
(38:35):
adorned up in some like like some kind of majestic God that
tells his name and he says, I own you.
Well, here Abel is a born again Christian, right?
And his father had turned from Hinduism and to Jesus Christ.
And Abel says, I, I belong to Jesus, not to you.
And and this thing goes on and tells him, well, your
(38:58):
grandfather dedicated you to me when you were a baby.
You're mine. So did that demon own him?
Absolutely not, as he affirmatively said, I belong to
Jesus Christ. But in that moment he determined
to renounce that spirit to say I'm not my grandfather, I am
not, I am not yours, I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
(39:21):
So I think one place the enemy deceives people sometimes is he
tricks us into thinking that he has power over us.
He really doesn't. And so when we talk about
repenting of our sins and then renouncing those false, those
false gods, those false spirits,those demons from our life,
really what it is is a declaration.
I will have nothing to do with that.
(39:42):
I am a servant of Jesus and we're declaring ourselves
squarely under the the power of God.
Katisha, you said something thatI think is important for our
listeners to realize You're saved, you've been delivered,
you're full of the Holy Spirit. Still deal with some anxiety
sometimes and that's OK, right? Because as you said, Jesus may
(40:04):
be planning to bring some more healing.
And at other times, in other ways, there are people that
sometimes think, well, maybe I'mless spiritual because I have
these particular struggles. I had the struggle with anxiety
or whatever, and nothing could be further from the truth.
The reality is there's, there's,there's a whole lot of different
things that contribute to that. There's medical, there's medical
issues that can contribute our life experiences, our our
(40:25):
memories. Our current context, you know,
work all these different things and it's OK for us to just
admit, you know what, I still have some struggles.
As a matter of fact, so do I. What you said a minute ago that
I want to take a second and justacknowledge was, and I don't
(40:46):
know exactly how you said it, but it was something this effect
concerning anxiety that, you know, sometimes you need to
sometimes you need to renounce that as well.
So what do we mean by that? Well, on the one hand, can
anxiety be caused by spiritual harassment?
Of course it can. But even if it's coming from
very natural causes, it's very appropriate, I think to
(41:08):
sometimes say, you know what? I experienced anxiety, but it
doesn't own me. It doesn't define who I am, what
defines me as I am a child living God.
And Katisha, when I see you in church on Sunday morning, I
think you are an embodiment of the joy of the Lord for me that
like when, when I see you, that's what I think.
(41:30):
That's what the joy of the Lord looks like in somebody's life.
Is there any, are there any final things that that you think
it'd be important for our listeners to know either from
your personal story or in general on this topic?
And, and kind of in addition to that, if there happens to be
anybody listening that still practicing Wiccan or witchcraft
(41:56):
of any sort, is there anything you would say to them?
Something I really appreciate about your stories.
At no point in our in our conversation have you suggested
that people that are doing this are more evil or or whatever
than other people that these areeach of our pasts and our
upbringings and things have predisposed us to different
things. And I love that in your story
(42:17):
you came to Jesus Christ, but I've not heard any sense of
condemnation toward any other direction anywhere in this.
Nonetheless, there may be peoplejust like you that they've got
people in their life talking to him about Christ and they're
going, Hey, back off. You know who I am.
This is this is not what I am. What would you say to others
(42:38):
that are that are in whether it's Wiccan or some type of
similar type lifestyle or I knowyou said you struggled with
addiction for a lot of years. What would you say to somebody
in some of those past scenarios like that?
For people that are currently Wiccan or into witchcraft, and I
do have some people that are dear to me and it I share the
(43:00):
Lord with them, of course, but I'm not going to be pushy or say
you have to believe it's going to be the best thing for you.
I know that it would be the bestthing for them, but you want to
lead them and just pray for themevery single day.
And I'm always praying for the people I care about and people I
don't know for them to have the softening of their hearts, to
(43:22):
want to listen to the gospel, towant to be saved.
I do want to say that there is alot of, there's a lot of stuff
that goes on in your life. A lot of hard times, it seems
like every day is just a dark day.
And the things that you're doingin being Wiccan and following
those ways is against God and those things, you're allowing
(43:46):
the demons to lead your life instead of God leading your
life. And it makes your life really,
really hard. And you seem like you have a lot
of struggles. And if you could turn from those
things, even if you you're not sure if you just give, give God
a chance and see if that stuff doesn't stop, if you stop having
(44:06):
hard times, if you stop going through such a dark, dark, dark
period. Because I know that since I've
turned to God, I am filled with happiness.
I know that even through a hard time, God's not going to put me
through something that I can't, that I can't handle.
And I know that he has a purposeand an intention for everything
and that his ways and just you're always looking for
(44:30):
something to fill you up, whether it be witchcraft, you're
doing reading spells, you're wanting your fill empty inside.
And I feel a lot of people know that empty feeling inside.
I felt that empty way. I try to fill it with different
substances, with drugs, with alcohol, with people, but
(44:51):
nothing can fill that the way that God can.
And I fit truly believe that we're all intended to have God
in us to fill that because only God can feel that.
And you won't have that emptiness anymore.
You'll be filled with the fruitsof the Spirit, joy, peace,
happiness, love. So Katisha, you've shared some
(45:12):
phenomenal things today. We began our conversation with
you sharing how your own background was multi
generational witchcraft and one of those early experiences with
somebody that was actively worshipping Satan, at least in
(45:33):
in her mind. And now here you are serving
Jesus and your mom. As you reflect on that, what's
what's that mean to you as you look at where you are now versus
where you came from? Just kind of talk to us about
(45:54):
that. I'm just definitely very, very
thankful. But I know my children don't
have to go through the worries that I did.
They don't have to look back andsay, well, my great grandmother
was this witch and she supposedly already sold all of
(46:14):
our souls, all of her heirs, allof her children, grandchildren
to the devil. So does that mean I belong?
No, my kids know they don't belong to the devil.
They will never have that worry because they are blood bot
children of God they've gave. I have surrendered my life to
God and my children have surrendered their lives to God.
And we know that we serve the Lord Almighty God, and Satan has
(46:38):
no control over us. Amen, Amen and.
No hold. I love what the scripture says
when in the passage that so manypeople used to talk about
generational curses where it says God visits the iniquity of
the fathers upon the sons to thethird and 4th generation of
those that hate him. But we miss the other part.
It says in his blessings are to 1000 generations.
(47:00):
And so when you surrendered yourlife to Christ, that past curse
is broken, and the blessings of God are released upon your
family line.
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