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April 16, 2024 52 mins

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Have you ever felt the wear and tear of burnout creeping into your life, inching its way into your creative soul? I know I have, and it's time to talk about the lifeline that boundaries are in our industry. Today's episode of the Designer Within brings in Lori Miller, an interior designer with a unique twist—her expertise in mental health counseling. We peel back the layers of how psychological principles can shape the spaces we live in, affecting our overall well-being. I get personal with my own brushes with burnout and share the pivotal steps I've taken to keep my mental health on track amidst the demands of our bustling field.

Navigating the emotional labyrinth of client relationships and the pressures of home renovations can be a daunting task for designers, but it's one we dissect with care. We discuss striking the right chords with our clients, understanding their deeper motivations, and the undeniable impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on all of us within the design industry. Lori sheds light on the subtle but potent signals of burnout, and we contemplate strategies to manage stress before it overtakes us.

I wrap things up with a heart-to-heart on the sacredness of Sundays, the power of a pause, and the transformative nature of mindfulness practices in our daily routines. If you're looking for a nudge towards self-care, a reminder to breathe, or practical tips on keeping your professional balance without tipping over, this is your sign.

Highlights of our convo:
* The signs of burnout and how to notice them
* How to avoid burnout altogether using tools you already have
* Psychology tactics to work with clients from the very beginning
* How boundaries and expectations are key

I hope you take the time to TRULY listen to this episode and I hope if you need help you seek it. Notice the signs of burnout as it reveals itself to you and take care of it now. You are worth it.

For more information on Lori Miller:
Website: www.lgcinteriordesign.com

 Check out MY LINK HERE for a free 30 day trial to MyDoma Studio and organize your clients and projects the easy and efficient way!
https://www.mydomastudio.com/john/ 

For all things John: www.johnmcclain.co
For more information on my online Courses & Coaching Program for Interior Designers, visit: https://designsuccessacademy.com/
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John McClain (00:00):
I know sometimes we do tend to go to that drastic
point in our lives where we'relike let's just forget the whole
thing and get rid of everythingand forget it all.
But there are steps in themiddle of that where we can stop
and say, ok, let's establishsituations where we can fix that
.
Two things with me boundariesand delegation.

Lori Miller (00:19):
So boundaries are huge, for sure, because nobody
has them anymore, right?
I mean, we're working on top ofeach other, we're working from
home, we're in each other'sspace, where that's another
piece of it, right?
We don't get up and have aroutine and go to work and sit
in our cubicle and come homewe're like, okay, I'm spread out
on my dining room table and theboundary piece is big.
But then we were talking aboutmindfulness before, and

(00:42):
mindfulness is a big deal.
Like you said, you take abreath, you focus on what you're
thinking, you connect, youconnect with your body.
You're like, okay, this is anunrealistic thought, or let me
step away from this thought,because I have to look at it
differently.
I'll let it flow, becausefeelings aren't thoughts.
All they are is feelings.
Thoughts are only feelings,right?

(01:03):
Hey, y'all you thoughts, allthey are is feelings.

John McClain (01:04):
Thoughts are only feelings, right?
Hey y'all, you're listening tothe Designer Within Podcast,
episode number 43.
I'm John McClain and welcome tothe Designer Within Podcast,
the business-minded podcastcreated for creative
entrepreneurs by a creativeentrepreneur that's me.
I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that

(01:25):
can come with our careers, andI'm here to sip and spill the
tea with you.
It's time to dive deep withinyourself and redesign your own
business and your life from theinside out.
Together, we will uncoversecrets and share valuable
insights.
So prepare for a transformativeexperience, my friends, because
it's time to unleash thedesigner within.

(01:48):
Hey everybody, welcome toanother episode of the designer
within.
I am your host, john McClain,very happy to have you here.
As always, you're in for atreat on today's episode.
This is a very, very timelyepisode.
Even though May is MentalHealth Awareness Month, I feel
there's always a good time totalk about mental health and to
talk about burnout andspecifically, to talk about the

(02:11):
psychological aspects of what wedo as interior designers and
how we bring the psychologicalaspects of our business into our
careers and how we bring thatinto working with our clients.
And today on the podcast, Ihave Lori Miller.
Lori is the founder andprincipal designer of LGC
Interiors, which creates luxuryspaces that combine personal

(02:35):
well-being and functional design.
Lori has a background in mentalhealth counseling and she has
worked in various fields,including get this a director of
crime victims program andrunning psychiatric units.
Yes, very, very interesting.
Lori's vibrant personality andholistic approach to interior
design have led her to beingfeatured on numerous media

(02:58):
outlets and named as one of thetop 10 design firms.
You're going to love thisepisode.
Get your pen and paper out.
You're probably going to wantto listen to this episode a
couple of times, but, mostimportantly, I want you to take
heart, especially if you arenearing the signs of burnout, if
you have seen some of the signsof burnout that we are going to

(03:19):
speak about, or if you justsimply want to listen because
you want to prevent burnout fromever happening in your career
or in your business, and thisepisode will dive into that, and
we're also going to be talkingabout some psychological aspects
of our business and how to bestwork with some clients.
I'm also going to talk abouthow I experienced burnout and

(03:41):
got through that myself.
So, that being said, I hope youenjoyed this wonderful episode
with Lori Miller with LGCInteriors.
Lori, welcome to the DesignerWithin Podcast.

Lori Miller (03:53):
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.

John McClain (03:55):
I am so excited to have you here.
I might even constitute this asmy own therapy session with you
today.

Lori Miller (04:03):
Anytime you want Free services.

John McClain (04:07):
No, seriously, in all seriousness, this is such a
great topic because I feel likeworking on our own mindfulness
and our own minds in general andjust being thoughtful about
that is always a great topic,and there's never a bad time to
do that, and anytime we cancarve out a space in our lives

(04:27):
to just think about creatingspace and time for ourselves to
really dive into what's goingwell, what's going wrong and how
to work on that is just a goodthing to do.
So we have so much to talk abouton this episode today, but
before we get into that, I gavea little bio about you, but I'd
like to hear it in your ownwords, because your background
is really interesting, becauseyou have one foot.

(04:51):
Honestly, I will tell you thisI would love to have this
background because I do feel, aswe are all psychologists, as
designers, I would love to haveone foot in the psychology realm
and one foot in the designerrealm as a designer, and you do
have that.
So tell me how that came to bein your life and why that came
to be for you.

Lori Miller (05:10):
So I was definitely a strange kid.
You know, I had a family inconstruction, I was very
creative and my cat runs across.
I was super creative and Ithought I was going to be an art
major in school.
I was super creative and Ithought I was going to be an art

(05:40):
major in school, but I alsoused to read Freud.
So I was like 10, 11 years oldand I was fascinated by this
whole, like Sybil, tv awards,whatever.
When I started art school incollege I had an art professor
who told me you will never begood at this and I literally
took it to heart and I was likeI'm never painting again and had
a meltdown.
I was like, oh my God, I'm notgood at this and I was like,

(06:00):
okay, so I pivoted and I wentinto psychology and I was like,
ok, so I pivoted and I went intopsychology and I love the
psychological aspect of it.
I loved learning how to dotesting and understanding colors
and how that affects things.
You know, we got a lot into theholistic part of life and I was
just on the cusp of crystalsand spiritual and all these fun

(06:23):
things and doing meditations andit was interesting to me.
So I picked that up, moved outto California and I was like,
wow, this is great over here, Ilove this.
And all of a sudden I picked upa watercolor and I started
drawing and painting again and Iwas like, oh my God, like I
miss this part of myself so much.

(06:45):
And when I was, I got into myfirst job, I met my ex-husband,
who was, then, you know, thelove of my life, of course, and
we bought our first house onliterally a correction officer's
salary and a social work salary, so everything was going to be
done by us.
It was horrible.
The house was so disgusting.

(07:06):
I mean, there was bugs fallingoff the out of the cabinetry and
the house like smelled likesmoke and the windows were
yellow from the nicotine.
And we just like spent hourslike pulling this house apart
and we always wanted to be onthe water.
And nine months later the housewas finished, I was all
comfortable and settled in andall of a sudden I found to be on
the water.
And nine months later, thehouse was finished, I was all
comfortable and settled in andall of a sudden I found a house

(07:27):
on the water for sale and I'mlike, oh, we'll just do it again
.
So, lo and behold, thank God Iwas in my like 30s.
So, lo and behold, we takeanother house apart.
And after I was done, I hadspent a year in the wallpaper
store and I was looking forwallpapers.
I knew every manufacturer, Iknew every sales rep.

(07:49):
I lived there.
I was like this is a greatplace.
So my boss at the time wasn'tmy boss and he's like you know,
we had our Saturday person quit.
Do you want a job?
So I was like, well, I alreadyhave a job, I'm running the
psych units at Rikers but thiscould be like a welcome break.
So I took a Saturday job.
I was working on commission, Iwas making $100, $150 a day, I

(08:12):
was in my glory and he ended upselling the store to the manager
and the manager put it intobankruptcy and he's like Lori,
just go back to school, you'rereally good at this.
I'm like you're out of yourmind.
I already have a degree, I havea master's, I don't need
another degree.
He's like just go back toschool, get a certificate, do
something, you're really good atit.

(08:33):
So I went to go sell furnitureand then I worked in a flooring
place and the flooring place,the owner of the store.
You can't make this up right.
Only in our industry would thishappen.
The guy who owned the man whoowned the flooring store ended
up getting arrested forprostitution, embezzlement,
cocaine possession and I waslike, wow, both worlds collide,

(08:57):
this is great.
I go from jail to jail.
And I said you know what, I'mgoing to go back to school.
And I did.
And I said you know what?
I'm going to go back to school?
And I did.
And I took myself back toschool and I literally had such
anxiety every morning before mydrawing class and I would go to
the bathroom.
I would you know I was sick inthe bathroom.

(09:17):
I was like I sweat, just.
But I pushed through it and shewas like you're amazing.
And I was like, oh my God,thank you, like that's so cool
from the professor who told me Icouldn't do it.
And then we were taking theAutoCAD class and our professor
was an engineer.
She's like Lori, just hang outa shingle.

(09:38):
She's like you've worked foreverybody already, you've
already in your internship.
She's like, just hang out ashingle.
So already, you've already inyour internship.
She's like, just hang out ashingle.
So at that point I was I don'tknow how many years I had been
at Rikers and they asked me torun the crime victims program
for the Queens DA and I was likeI have a design business, I

(09:58):
can't take this job, and youknow.
And he just like naivety is abeautiful thing.
So he said, lori, I don't carewhat you do, he goes work nights
, just get the program, hire whoyou want, do whatever you need
to do.
He's like I really don't careand I was like okay.
So I ran my business, I startedthe crime victims program and

(10:21):
it was just, it's just been anamazing ride, it's really been
amazing wow, okay, yeah, that isa story that I've never heard.

John McClain (10:33):
Yeah, that is the first for me.
What a what a journey, you know.
But you know, what I take awayfrom that, truthfully, is that
you had a passion for design andyou loved it so much that it
was not going to let you go.
It was not going to tell youlike, oh, you were told no by a
professor or a teacher back inthe day and you were told that

(10:55):
it was not for you.
But deep down inside you knewthat it was something that was,
truthfully, was passionate inyour soul and that you needed it
to be fulfilled because it keptfinding ways to surface in your
life.
And I guess, in a lot of ways,as you said, it was therapeutic
for you to do those tasks onyour own.
And then suddenly you're like,oh wait, no, this needs to be a

(11:15):
larger part of my life and itwas going to find a way to be a
larger part of your life.
And now you found a way to, Iguess would you say, 50-50 or
what would be?
the percentage 50-50.
Okay.

Lori Miller (11:27):
It's really 50-50 and they're constantly
intertwined Mental healthclients become design clients,
design clients become mentalhealth clients and I think
there's a total overlap.
You can't feel good in yourspace unless it's cleared,
unless it's organized, unlessit's put together properly.

(11:50):
And you can't put your spacetogether if you don't have a
clear head and you knowsustainability is huge.
It's your health, it's yourwellness, it's how you think and
feel.
So all of that, you know,really ties in nicely.

John McClain (12:05):
It sure does, and I think for all of us.
We have psychological aspectsthat we deal with with our
clients, and I see it happeningfrom that very first phone call.
And there's two ways, by theway, that I want to handle this
conversation that we're havingtoday.
I want to talk about how youbring your psychology degree and
your background with yourclients and how that affects how

(12:26):
you do business, but also theaspects that you bring for
designers and the services thatyou have for us.
So first of all, I want to godown the road of how you work
with your clients and how yourpsychology background finds its
way to the surface there.
Because when I'm speaking, as Isaid, with someone on a
discovery call, at the verybeginning I start to kind of

(12:48):
pick up on things that they'resaying or you know little
nuances in their voice or littlethings about what they're
wanting to spend, or little waysthat they're just saying in a
conversation.
And then later on, as you gointo the actual in-home
consultation, you see evenfurther.
Oh, if it's a spouse, you seehow the spouses speak to one
another and if one puts theother one down, or if one has

(13:12):
the leverage power in therelationship or you just start
to pick up on little things likethat.
When do you start to integrateyour psychology background into
the client conversation?
Does it come with aquestionnaire?
Does it come with aquestionnaire?
Does it come with, like, do youhave a specific set of
questions that you ask, becauseI find this so intriguing with
your specific psychology degree?

(13:32):
Knowing that you have that, doyou have specific questions that
you ask your clients to want toknow more about them, to build
upon that relationship with yourpsychology background?

Lori Miller (13:41):
So yes, and sort of right, okay, Through a lot of
coaching from other coaches,it's the typical questions who
makes the decisions right?
So, and then I've learned thatthe answers to those questions
really are the psychologicalanswers as well.
So what I used to do was do anin-person, sit down with them

(14:06):
and observe who's answering me,who's making that decision?
How does the wife talk to thehusband?
Like you said, that was thein-person.
But all of a sudden, from abusiness perspective and from
our coaches, it's like oh, thoseare the questions that really
hone in on what I'm observing.
It really starts like you saidat the very beginning Hi, what

(14:27):
are you looking for?
How do you live?
You know what's going oncurrently that's making you want
to do these changes.
What's your budget?
What do you do for a living?
Are you busy?
Are you juggling six kids and alaw practice?
And you know, I mean, you knowour clients have a lot of
responsibility too, or some ofthem don't.
So that's, you know.
What do you do with your freetime?

(14:48):
Are you hosting Canasta?
You know?
Or what's happening?
So it's really at the verybeginning.
And then I get into the nittygritty what do you like?
Why do you like that?
Let's look at that.
How does that make you feel?
And then that comes into colors, patterns, textures, clothing.
Let's look in your closet.
So it's really an in-depth.

(15:08):
You know what are we doing here.
What do you need and how can Ihelp you?

John McClain (15:13):
Sounds like you do this the exact same way that I
do it.
I, or maybe even a littledeeper I I always find that
there's an emotional connection,an emotional reason for why
someone wants to make a changein their home.
Yes, they want to renovatetheir home.
But why do they want to do thatrenovation?
Is it because they want tospend more time with their

(15:34):
family and this is going to, intheir eyes, allow them to spend
more time with their family?
Or is it that they want toentertain more?
And by opening up these walls,it's going to allow them to have
more parties and, as you said,you know, play, Canasta or
whatever.
So is this going to have abigger effect on their lives?
There always seems to be someemotional outcome that they're
looking to achieve, I find, andour pathway to get them there is

(15:58):
the design, is the renovation,is the work that we do to get
them to the finish line, to thatemotional reaction that they're
looking for.
And sometimes we have to justscratch the surface just a
little bit to find out whatthey're looking for, because
that sometimes is not what theytell us right away from the
first moment that we startspeaking with them.

Lori Miller (16:16):
I find Right, exactly.
Yeah, we have to pry.

John McClain (16:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so with COVID, and I
hate to keep talking about covid, but you know, I know it's.
I hate to even say the word, butI will say this that c word,
the c word, but it still doeshave an effect and it's still.
It's still a lingering effect.
Some people have still healtheffects from it.
Unfortunately, all of us stillhave emotional baggage,

(16:43):
emotional effects andpsychological effects from that.
So during that time, you know,we were all designers where a
lot of people were very busy, alot of people were overwhelmed,
overworked and so forth.
And then, you know, thingschanged and then that continued
or didn't continue.
But for designers who started toget overwhelmed and overworked

(17:04):
and just exhausted from all ofthat, first of all, did you
speak to designers who did havethis effect and who did see that
effect within themselves?
And for those people who mightbe going through that, I'd like
to know what are the signs forsomeone who might say, huh, I
think I'm overwhelmed, I thinkthat I might be on the verge of

(17:25):
burnout.
I think that this is lookinglike I'm going down that burnout
pathway, but I'm not sure if Iam or I'm afraid to put that
label on it because it's goingto back me into a corner that I
have to now deal with it.
So what are some burnout signsthat you have seen that maybe
you've dealt with with otherclients that you've worked with,

(17:45):
because you do work withdesigners on the other side of
your business.
So what are some of those signsthat maybe people are afraid to
deal with, or that they're alittle you know, I don't know
scared to even knock on the doorof burnout?

Lori Miller (17:57):
Right, exactly.
So I think the first sign isbeing short tempered.
It's kind of like all of asudden you find yourself a
little irritable.
You're talking to a vendor andyou're like God, really.
You're like, here we go again,you know, and they're on the
front lines as well, but they'reour frustration, they're our

(18:18):
source of frustration.
What do you mean?
You can't get that to me.
What do you mean?
It came in broken and you'renot answering my call.
You know, you know like I need.
I need immediate response hereand normally pre right, pre-see.

John McClain (18:30):
Yeah.

Lori Miller (18:30):
You know we'd be like, ok, I can give you a day.
Now we're like, no, I want itresolved now, because I don't
know where you're going, I don'tknow if you're going to be here
tomorrow, I don't know ifyou're ever going to get it
resolved.
So you know that shorttemperedness and irritability.
It's like you look at the phoneand you're like, oh God, is he
calling me again?
You know, or is it another textmessage from that client saying

(18:54):
that the blue color I picked isjust slightly off and should
have been one percent white?
You know.
So you know, it's the thoselittle things that you're kind
of catch yourself and you'relike, oh my God, I'm really
thinking that way, like I'mthinking my clients are horrible
, or you know, and it's reallynot the client, it's the burden
of responsibility that we bearfor an entire project.

(19:16):
Contractor walks in.
He's responsible for puttingthe cabinets in.
He's responsible for putting,you know, whatever on the wall.
We're responsible for thecarpenter, we're responsible for
the plumbing looks when, is youknow?
So every aspect of the jobfalls under us.
Does it look good?
Is it right?
Is the client going to be happy?
So that irritability seepsthrough.

(19:39):
Then it's the anxiety, andeveryone experiences anxiety a
little bit differently.
I mean, there's full-blownanxiety attacks where you're
just paralyzed, you feel thatpain in your chest.
You think you're having a heartattack, you can't breathe and
you're like, oh my God, I'mgoing to die now, you know.
But then there's like just thatlittle bit of oh my God, I
can't catch my breath, or I'mshaking, or I'm checked out,

(20:03):
like what the hell was I doing?
Like did you say something?
You know, those anxiety piecesreally come up for us and it's
knowing what to do for that.
So it's really.
Those are the two major thingsthat I've seen.
And I've seen Kaleeb Anderson.

(20:23):
I know he's spoken about it.
He's had, you know, anxiety.
So it's not, you know, it'sacross the board, and I mean
these are huge designers that welook up to as well.

John McClain (20:35):
I know for myself it was something that I did,
experience it, and it did startto creep, creep, creep.
A little bit here, a little bitthere, and I was, I did that.
I, I did exactly what I justdescribed to you.
I kept brushing it off andbrushing it off and, oh no, I
can do that.
Oh no, I can pile one morething on my plate.

(20:56):
Oh no, I can.
I can do that speakingengagement and do this interview
and work with this client andtrain this new employee and, you
know, do this other thing andwhatever.
And before I knew it, what hitthe fan with me was I and I've
spoken about this on socialmedia, but I was at a large,
large industry event and I wason stage speaking industry event

(21:20):
and I was on stage speaking, Iwas doing my thing and you know
on and doing the whole thing.
And I got off stage and I wassupposed to speak with other
people individually, answerquestions one on one, and I
couldn't even verbalize one word, lori, I couldn't even talk.
The words would not come out ofmy mouth.
It was like oh, literally yeah.
And so I walked as fast as Icould, like I had to leave,
because my, I did exactly.
My heart was pounding, you know, the chest, the stress and

(21:42):
everything in my chest.
And so I found a corner in acafe and I turned the chair away
from the room and I just staredat the corner of the room and I
just waited until I calmed down.
But that was the first,obviously a big moment for me
and of course I stopped you know, therapy and medication and so
forth from there, which reallyreally did help me.
So from that point I said youcan't let this happen to you

(22:03):
again.
Nothing is worth your healthand just no amount of work, no
amount of success, no amount ofwhatever brand recognition that
you're trying to achieve isworth this to achieve that.
And so, through all of thosewonderful therapy sessions and
again medication, all the things, it really has changed the way

(22:25):
that I look at things and Idon't want other people to go
through that.
But you know what was sointeresting?
I reached out one on one duringthat time to designer friends
that I knew and I just said, hey, how you doing Just as a check
in right, just said hey, how youdoing Just as a check in Right,
and I was checking in with themjust to say hi and they were
like I don't know.
It's just so weird.
Right now I'm not feeling toowell.
I'm like well, let me tell memore about that.

(22:46):
So many people were havingthose those same ideas, so those
same feelings, those samesymptoms, but they were scared
to say anything about it and Iwish more people would speak up
and talk about that more.
Do you think, do you find thatfear of speaking about it is is
embarrassing to some people, isas are they ashamed about it?
Is there, is there a shame inthe world about burnout and just

(23:10):
not being able to to keep upwith other people?

Lori Miller (23:12):
It used to be more so, I think, with more people
coming out and talking about itand people who are idols.
I mean, we see you know musicpeople talking about it.
We see you know celebrities youknow you're a celebrity here.
You are talking about it.
You know everybody knows, comeon, so you know.

(23:35):
But I think it normalizes itand I think it makes us more
human.
But I do still think thatpeople have the you don't talk
about.
You know people will see you asweak, they'll see you as
incompetent.
So I think the more we get thatout and the more we talk about
it, the less that will happenand maybe the anxiety will

(23:56):
lessen also, because that's justan additional pressure.
It's like I can't talk about itNow, I have to hold it in.

John McClain (24:04):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it's just normalizing
it and I think that we have whatmental health month is May, I
believe Right.
So we have one month where wesort of wave the flag and say
it's okay, say I'm nuts.
Yeah, right.
Free to be me yeah, right,there's that saying that they

(24:24):
say you know I'm from georgia.
So they said we say you know,in the south we don't hide our
crazy people, we put them righton the front porch.
That's right.
I'm gonna put myself.
I'm gonna put myself right onthe front porch and just say,
here I but, but I it's not, bythe way, it's not being crazy,
and I'm not saying no, I'm justsaying that.
Okay, of saying and proud to saythat it is fine and I applaud

(24:47):
people who say I need help andit's time to get help, because I
would rather you say I needhelp than you wither away.
Because you used a word when wewere speaking before we went
live that resonated with me.
You used the word trauma and Ifeel like that is such a good
word to describe the point thata lot of people get to before
they realize that they need helpand it is very traumatic when

(25:12):
they get to that lowest level.
What level of trauma do youfind that people do sometimes
get to, as a designer, forinstance, when they're seeking
help, and when they're lookingfor help, do they get to the
point of losing clients, losingtheir business?
I mean, what have you seenpeople get to before you know
they're reaching for help orwhen they're reaching out to
help for you.
What levels of help or whatlevels of need are they asking

(25:33):
for from you?

Lori Miller (25:35):
I think they feel like they want to quit.
You know, I don't know if it'snecessarily.
They could be at the pinnacleof their career you know and
have a bustling, like you know.
Like you said you were speaking,you were, you know you were
here, you had this client, youwere training somebody new.
That's all growth and expansion.
But with that comes additionalresponsibility and knowing how

(25:56):
to handle that and taking thattime for yourself and not, you
know, crossing that boundary andsaying you can't text me past
six o'clock and if you do,answering you for 24 hours, you
know so.
And then of course, it's alwaysthe fear Well, 24 hours later,
I'm going to forget the text andthere's going to be 120 more
behind it.
So you know, and that's whathappens to emails, texts,

(26:19):
whatever.
But I think it's when peoplejust are really ready to quit.
They're done, they're like, ok,I can't take on anymore, or I
can't do anymore.
Or like when the you know, whentheir clients have fallen away
and the business is no more andthey have to rework to build it,
you know.
So both of those scenarios arekey to rework, to build it.

John McClain (26:41):
You know.
So both of those scenarios arekey.
I do find that when we're in adifficult situation we sometimes
avoid that middle messy part,right when we're trying to work
through it.
We tend to go to the bad, likelet's just stop it now, let's
just burn the whole thing down,forget everything, right Versus.
If you just breathe throughthat difficult part, usually
last like that difficult part Ifind for me is about I don't

(27:03):
know like 60 seconds, somethinglike that.
I just kind of breathe throughthat moment and like through
that rough part, like thosenegative emotions in my head,
not anxiety attack necessarily,but the negative thoughts
typically for me are about aminute ish.
I can kind of breathe throughthose and go through those
negative.
So we have negative thoughtsthroughout the entire day.
But I know sometimes we do tendto go to that drastic point in

(27:26):
our lives where we're like let'sjust forget the whole thing and
get rid of everything andforget it all.
But there are steps in themiddle of that where we can stop
and say, okay, let's establishsituations where we can fix that
.
I agree with you.
I find that boundaries are thebest way to deal with that and

(27:46):
that was what was part of theway that I fixed that as well.
Two things with me boundariesand delegation.
I found that by delegatingtasks to other people were very
helpful for me.
So do you find that those twothings are things that you
suggest for people to deal with,and what other ideas or
concepts do you have that yousuggest people work with?

Lori Miller (28:04):
So boundaries are huge for sure, because nobody
has them anymore, right?
I mean, we're working on top ofeach other, we're working from
home, we're in each other'sspace, where that's another
piece of it, right?
We don't get up and have aroutine and go to work and sit
in our cubicle and come homewe're like, ok, I'm spread out
on my dining room table and youknow whatever.

(28:25):
So the boundary piece is big.
But then we were talking aboutmindfulness before, and you know
it used to be meditation orwhatever people called it.
Throughout every 10, everydecade, it's called something
else.
But mindfulness is a big deal.
Like you said, you take a breath, you focus on what you're

(28:45):
thinking, you connect, youconnect with your body.
You're like, okay, this is anunrealistic thought.
Or let me step away from thisthought because I have to look
at it differently.
I'll let it flow, becausefeelings aren't thoughts.
All they are is feelings.
Thoughts are only feelings,right?

(29:05):
So usually, if we're going toget in an accident, we hit the
brake and then we panic becausewe had that thought oh my God, I
almost had an accident and thenwe're shaking.
So it's the thought and we'rejust like, okay, just let me
breathe through it.
Let me feel the ground right.
They say hug a tree, feel theearth spirit.
So that's what we, you know,that's what we should do is just

(29:28):
take that breath and calmourselves.
Sometimes, talking to a friendphone, a friend um, talking to
like you did, you spoke to otherdesigners it's like like no, I
have camaraderie, I'm not here,isolated by myself.
This is not just me sufferingwith this phone call.

(29:50):
You know, thank God there'scoaches and people and you know
that we can reach out to it'sall of those things and tidbits
and knowing what to use when.

John McClain (29:55):
Yes and again, not to feel embarrassed or less
than for having those feelings.
I think that's definitely acritical part of it too.
The other thing, too, I feellike as designers we do.
You said it in the beginning.
You said that we always feel wehave to take that burden of the
project on for us.
We have to take on the burdenof the contractor and of the
wallpaper installer and of thevendor and of all the people,

(30:19):
and there is that perfectioniststatus that we feel we have to
keep up with the client too.
Do you have any thoughts onthat concept of perfectionism
and what we can do to combatthat if we are finding ourselves
going down the negative lane ofa perfectionist?

Lori Miller (30:38):
Tricks for me, right, because part of that is
the truth.
You know, we're taking care.
It's almost like having a babyyou're taking care of everything
and the client is the baby.
And now they're challenging us,which I think is part of what
it is.
They're challenging us what doyou mean?
I think we should be using, youknow, satin instead of meth,
Because, you know, my neighboron the neighborhood watch of

(31:01):
Facebook said that you know hercolor, you know on her trim.
So you know, we, we do have areality piece of that.
But it's also kind of keepingus ourselves in check and say I
have the knowledge, I can dothis, keeping ourselves in check
and say I have the knowledge, Ican do this.
And if not, I don't have to beall things to everybody.

(31:24):
There's YouTube, there'sexperts.
You know there's an instructionmanual in the fireplace box,
right, so we can look at theinstruction manual.
It's our burden for us that weput on ourselves versus where is
that reality piece that maybewe don't have to know it all,

(31:45):
but we can manage it so and it'sfunny.
I had that conversation with acontractor today because I was
you know, I'm dealing with acontractor and I have a builder,
and the contractor wasn't,didn't know, i't know, he didn't
know how to put the molding inthe wall or whatever.
And I was like I'm saying youknow you use the glue and you

(32:09):
know you use the nail, like thenails, and it's, you know, this
is done all the time.
And I'm showing him picturesand I'm like, but I'm about
ready to explode, right, and I'mlike I'm going to call my
builder and I called him up andhe's he builds huge, huge
projects.
You know, like buildings,massive hospitals.
And I called him up and I'mlike listen, I'm like I'm

(32:30):
struggling here.
Am I missing something?
He goes Lori, I don't know howto build.
He's like I manage the projectand I'm like all right, if
you're 6'2 and 200 plus pounds,and you're telling me that
you're managing these buildersand you don't know how to do
this, I feel so good.
So you know, it's that check-in, like all right, I don't have

(32:51):
to know it, I just have to lookit up and explain it.
And you know that's part of ourissues.

John McClain (32:56):
That is so well said, because I find if I
surround myself with people whoare the experts and who do know
how to do those things, I haveno problem with saying to the
client or to anyone I don't knowhow to do that.
I'm sorry, but I will ask thisperson who I surround myself
with, who I did bring on as ateam member and who will tell

(33:17):
you exactly how to do that, or Iwill ask them today and they
will tell me tonight and I willtell you tomorrow the answer to
that question.
There is nothing wrong withthat, because you're still
bringing the answer.
You don't have to have all ofthe answers right away for
everybody.
You do have to have resourcesto provide that answer I

(33:37):
understand that part but youdon't have to always have the
answers, which I think is whatyou're getting at there.
You're just surroundingyourself with the people who
have those answers to provide toyour clients.

Lori Miller (33:48):
Exactly.

John McClain (33:49):
Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lori Miller (33:50):
Perfect, I think you said it before too.
I'm trying to remember what yousaid, but you said it before
also.
You're like all right, you know, you call, your, call your rep
or you, you know, if you can't,you know the color's not coming
out right on the wall you callyou sharon williams, a benjamin
moore rep, or whoever, and they,yeah yeah, yeah, there's a
reason we have those people andwhen I first started bringing my

(34:13):
team members on, they weretrying to do everything as a
friend.

John McClain (34:17):
Since they were trying to do everything, let's
say we had a woodworker who wasdoing a built-in for us they
would try to do everything togive to that woodworker and I
would say, hey, guys, you don'thave to do all of that, like
part of their job is tosometimes give us the drawing.

Lori Miller (34:31):
Sometimes they're like wait, wait what they would
give us.

John McClain (34:33):
I said, yeah, they actually will take that off of
our plate.
So I would tell my team membershey, look, that'll save us
three hours of work to let themdo that part of it, and then
they actually have thatobligation on their end to make
sure that those are correct, andthen all we do is make changes.
It sort of blew their mind whenI said, hey, take this
responsibility off of your plate, give it to them, and then all
we're doing is approving whatthey're giving us, and they were

(34:55):
like, oh, wow, that's wonderful, I can move on to something
else.
Yes, you can, and theresponsibility made of that is
also off of your shoulders.
So, yes, I love that concept.
You had mentioned, too, sort ofthe pressure that we talked
about, the pressure of the worldand we and and going a little
deeper there with social mediaand with television and all the

(35:17):
things that are out there, allthe fixed rep shows and all of
that.
Is there trauma surroundingthat?
Are out there, all the fixedrep shows and all of that.
Is there trauma surroundingthat?
Are there issues that we faceas designers that we can feel
from the pressure of socialmedia, and can you speak on that
for us.

Lori Miller (35:32):
You and I are going to do a show on that.
Absolutely I mean the shows areso unrealistic.
Absolutely I mean the shows areso unrealistic.
I mean it's easy to have abudget of $30,000 to build a
house when Lowe's or Home Depotis donating the wood and you
know Viking is donating, youknow a stove, or you know we

(35:56):
contractor is donating his time,but it only costs $30,000 to
build the mansion in two days,no less, right?
So you know that behind thescenes stuff is.
It creates unrealisticexpectations, it creates
unrealistic budgets, createsunrealistic camaraderie.

(36:17):
I mean your clients really needto know we're going to be in
your house for two months orthree or six or a year and your
kitchen is not going to be donein two weeks.
Not going to happen.
So you know the cabinets aren'tgoing to come with a countertop
.
It's going to take a week ortwo weeks or sometimes three to

(36:38):
get it fabricated.
So let's set you up for reality.
And clients don't want to hearthat anymore.
They're like what?
I can go on Wayfair and I canbuy this and I can do that.
I can.
George to the rescue.
He did that in a week.
So you know it's so unreal.
It's not life.

John McClain (36:57):
Yeah, I agree with that, and I find too that once
I realized that by setting clearexpectations, it not only set
my clients on the right path andit set them up for
understanding what was going tohappen.
It lowered my stress level byknowing that I had to lay my
head every night on my pillowand understand that I'm not

(37:18):
going to wake up to a client whohad no idea what was going to
happen in their home the nextday, or that they didn't know
what they were going to becharged for.
You know that that wallpaper orthat the cost of their project
was going to be X when theyexpected it to be Y.
So expectation setting is, Ithink, so many people are just
afraid to say the number orafraid to say the time frame

(37:43):
because of fear of lettingsomeone down.
And I think too, sometimes thefear of letting someone down,
just in life in general, is whatholds us back, because we're
afraid to let our parents downor our spouse or whatever.
So we don't say the full truthof something or whatever.
So we don't say the full truthof something.
And when we don't do that, it'ssuch a disservice to the other

(38:04):
person and a disservice toourselves, because then you have
to just spin and spin, and spinand spin and spin to try to
find that truth somewhere inthere.
But if you were juststraightforward from the
beginning, don't you find thatyou never have to come back and
circle the airport again and tryto like oh, what did I say
there and what do I need to doto cover up this?
Because the facts are the facts.

(38:24):
So is that something that youfind is a way to avoid stress
and trauma and burnout is justto set clear expectations from
the get-go?

Lori Miller (38:35):
Yes, for the most part.
I think some people, no matterwhat you say, hear what they
want to hear.
And I see it a lot when I'mdoing like couples therapy or
relationships I don't want tohave a serious relationship and
I don't want to get married.
And the other person goes well,maybe they'll like me and then

(38:57):
they'll have a seriousrelationship.
And then you go on and it'slike two months down the road
and they're like OK, we gettingmarried, and the other person's
like what, we had thisconversation.
I told you from the get go.
I'm not having a seriousrelationship.
So, you know, I think sometimesit happens with our clients too

(39:18):
Like I don't know what they'retalking about.
They're just telling me it's 10weeks and it's really gonna be
four, right?
So on top of having thatdialogue and on top of giving
that to them in writing, right,I think, to continue to
reiterate that week after, okay,take out that piece of paper.

(39:38):
All right, we finished week one, here's what happened.
Now we're going into week two,so that we're constantly on the
back end and you know, inreality we're not all perfect
Sometimes, it happens sometimes.
But to have the ideal that wecan do, you know, to just touch
base with them on Friday orMonday and say here's where

(39:59):
we're at, here's an email youcan check in.
You know there's so manyprograms out there now where
they can see what the status is,so we don't even have to tell
them.
You know, maybe it's a clientyou just don't feel you need to
talk to and they could justcheck in on.
You know the communication.
So there's so many pieces tothat.
I remember when I first startedwe didn't have emails, we

(40:19):
didn't have computers.
I'm old right, but I used tohand them a piece of paper in my
packet said Murphy's Law,anything that can go wrong will,
but we will fix it.
Love it in Canva instead of in abrochure, and I think it's so

(40:40):
important to let them know look,we're going to be there with
you.
You don't have to call us in apanic and say, oh my god, you
know what.
It's simple.
You know we're here, we'll takecare of it.
Don't panic Communication.
This is the expectationweekends no text message.

John McClain (41:15):
We don't ever text mess.
We don't do text messages.
Here's how we communicate,here's when.
Here's how we do invoices, blah, blah, blah.
So it just sets theexpectations from the get-go,
very, very beginning before weeven start to work together, and
I love that.
But that doesn't deal with thedifferences in personalities
that every client has, right,because, as you're saying, one
client and one person may hearsomething differently and it may

(41:38):
not even resonate with them.
I find that you have to be achameleon of sorts with clients
and still have to say thingsdifferently to some people, or
they just don't hear it.
Right, exactly Right.
What tips do you have to sortof dig beneath the surface to
figure out how to find out,first of all, who that person is

(42:00):
and then, second of all, tospeak to that person in a way
that they will understand itRight.
Because I know we can't justblanket speak to people in one
manner and expect everybody tounderstand us the way that we're
speaking, because, as you said,everyone does receive things
differently.
So how do we speak to people ina way that that person's going
to understand it?
Over here, mr Smith, and thenMrs Jones, we have to speak to

(42:24):
Mrs Jones a little bitdifferently, but give the same
message.

Lori Miller (42:28):
So I think it's partly on the interview process,
when you're assessing who thatclient is, how they're
communicating with you.
Everybody learns differently.
So some people hear, somepeople see a visual.
So I think, all methods ofcommunication, sometimes it's
even just passing it to someoneon your staff and they hear it

(42:49):
better from that.
You know, I may not hear itfrom you because you're a male,
but I may hear it better fromthem.
You know I may not hear it fromyou because you're a male, but
I may hear it better from Susie,who has a little bit of that
feminine touch.
So it's knowing.
Is there a gender difference?
You know, especially with olderpeople, they're more trained to
.
You know, I have it with menall the time Like great, I'm a
female.

(43:10):
They're not going to hear it.
Come on over, you know, say itto them nicely.
So I think you know you reallyhave to know your client and
tune into that at the verybeginning.

John McClain (43:25):
Oh, that's great advice, very good advice.
Now, looking back, I can thinkabout different consultations
where I've taken a member of myteam with me and I can see where
a client has had a differentrapport with that team member
than they've had with me and I'mlike, oh, okay, you're going to
do all the presentations withher, because I can see how
you're really clicking with her,because she is speaking to you

(43:46):
because she has three kids and Idon't have any kids and you
have kids, and so there's that,there's that bond that's
instantly there.
So that's a very, very goodpoint If you do have team
members and you have otherpeople on your team is to maybe
allow them to speak with yourclients.
I think that's great and even ifyou don't, I think there's
still other ways to findcommonalities between each one

(44:07):
of you and just you know thatold saying avoid religion and
politics, right?
Yes, exactly.

Lori Miller (44:15):
Exactly.

John McClain (44:16):
I think that's great.
You know, in the busyness oflife and in the busyness of our
jobs and everything, what do yourecommend?
How do we take time forourselves?
How do we find those ways totake time for ourselves and
everything that we do?
Do you recommend doing it daily?
Do you recommend doing it on astandard practice?
I mean, I try to meditate everymorning as my practice to do

(44:37):
that, and I know meditation canlook differently for everyone
and sometimes it feels a littlequote, unquote, woo, woo for
everybody.
But I think that it can just betaking a walk and doing things
whatever is good for you.
But how often do you suggestpeople take time for themselves?
And then, how do you suggestpeople take time for themselves?

Lori Miller (44:55):
You know, I think everybody's different.
Some people prioritize going tothe gym.
So for sure, you know, make ita point.
You know, first thing in themorning you go to the gym,
whether it's yoga, whether it'sa treadmill, whether it's
walking outside.
You know, I think that littlebit of movement can help some
people, even if it's 10 minutes.
For me personally, I have tohave my half an hour in the

(45:18):
morning, right, I do before I goto bed, I do my meditation,
because I'm also at spiritualpractice, and then I take
Sundays.
Sundays are, you know, eitherfamily day, rest day, friend day
.
You know we have brunch, so Imanage to do.
You know, day a friend day.
You know we have brunch, so Imanage to do.
You know four things in a monththat are fun, you know.
And occasionally you know anight out, you know if it's a

(45:40):
Wednesday night, like I shutdown at six o'clock and we're
out to dinner or whatever it maybe.
So I think every day something,five minutes, 10 minutes, and
then a day in the week is reallyappropriate.

John McClain (45:53):
And just keep trying until you find out what
feels right for you right.
Because, you might trysomething that your friend or
your relative is doing thatdoesn't feel quite right for you
and I don't know.
Sometimes just closing my eyesat my computer and breathing for
60 seconds feels great.
Knowing that that's my 60seconds, so yeah, right, but

(46:20):
it's so funny you mentionedsundays because sundays I don't
know.
Sundays are very special to mebecause I I tend to not want to
do anything on sundays.
I tend to not want to.
I don't want to even get out onmy pjs on sundays because I
know, I know on sundays I'm notgoing to hear typically from my
team members unless it's anemergency.
I'm not going to hear, ofcourse, from clients, not going
to get bombarded with emailsabout you know, this, that and

(46:41):
the other vendor.
And so I know Sundays are great,I can lounge around, we can
cook breakfast, you know haveSundays, and so for me Sundays,
the whole day tends to feelalmost therapeutic for me on
Sunday.
So I get what you're sayingthere and if you can find that
special it doesn't have to be aday, I find, but if you can find

(47:01):
a special moment, you can startyour day slowly, end your day
slowly.
But I think that just carvingout that time for yourself, and
it seems impossible until you doit, it seems impossible to find
it until you just do it andthen you then suddenly it
becomes a part of your routineand then it's just there and if
you need to do you think puttingit on your calendar is helpful?

(47:21):
I know it sounds rigid to dothat, but do you find if that's
something that people will needto do to just to just do it?

Lori Miller (47:28):
I think some people absolutely, it's like either in
the notes or on the calendar,or you know, just, I used to
have, we used to have the bigcalendars, nice to have stickies
, and it would have like alittle person like jumping rope
or bicycle riding or you know.
It just be like a fun reminder,whatever it takes for you to
you know, for not youspecifically, but for you know

(47:50):
to do.
You know everybody doessomething fun or different.

John McClain (47:54):
I agree.
No, it's great.
It's such a important topic todiscuss.
Have we missed anything todaythat you would like for
everybody to know before we wrapup the conversation?
I think this is such greatinformation for everybody to be
aware of.
I want everybody to probablylisten to this again If you're
on the verge of burnout or evenjust stressed out.
This is just such greatknowledge to know, and if is

(48:17):
there anything else you wantedto add to the conversation, lori
, before we wrap everything up.

Lori Miller (48:22):
No, I think this was great.
Yeah, I mean you know it's agreat topic.
It was fun to do with you, youknow, and I think there's
important tidbits for people.
And especially, you know it'sfunny because you and I both
have had experience with theanxiety and we both use the same
sort of tools, so which wedidn't know before this right.

John McClain (48:44):
No.

Lori Miller (48:44):
So, yeah, I think it's great information for
people.

John McClain (48:48):
And again, don't be embarrassed, don't be afraid.
Just acknowledge it and seekhelp as you need to, and that
help can start small, at home,and then if you need to seek
professional help, that is thereas well.
And speaking of looking forhelp, lori, you offer services
for other people, for designersand specifically who need that,

(49:09):
so can you talk about whatservices you offer, and then I
think you have a special foreverybody that you're listening.

Lori Miller (49:15):
I do.
So you know nutrition is a bigpart of our health as well, and
how many of us go through thedays without eating.
So I do have a certificate innutrition for mental health.
So in a 10 week package, whichwould be 10 sessions, doesn't
have to be weekly, let's notstress, but in 10 sessions, you
know we can go through.

(49:35):
You know how to eat healthier,what to do with your body,
mindfulness where were youstressed?
How can we help?
How can we, you know, just getyou back on track and loving
what you do, because creativityis also a part of relaxation, so
it shouldn't, you know, have tobe stressful.
So for, you know, 10 sessions,a $500 discount.

(49:57):
Call me and we can setsomething up.
If you're in New York, I cantake insurance.
That's a big deal.
So if anybody needs help in NewYork we are licensed for in
mental health for that.

John McClain (50:09):
I love that.
And where can they find you?
Can you give them your websiteand your social information?
Social media?

Lori Miller (50:16):
Sure, so I'm at lgcinteriodesign.
Lgc is Lori Girl Creations, sothat was my nickname.
So if you can't find me at LGC,lori Girl is always a.
It's a key.
And I'm also lgcinteriodesignon my website as as well, so
feel free to reach out greatwell, this has been such a

(50:36):
wonderful, timely, helpfulconversation, I feel better I
feel relaxed.

John McClain (50:41):
I hope everyone listening does as well, and I
hope that they can take thisinformation and apply it to
their own lives and check loriout for any other helpful tips
that you can find out on herwebsite and take advantage of
her offer as well.
Lori, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I appreciate it.

Lori Miller (50:58):
Likewise, have a good one.

John McClain (51:00):
Thank you Bye.
Thanks for sticking with me tothe end of the Designer Within
podcast.
It means the world to me.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto the topics that we've
discussed here, be sure to checkout my online coaching and
courses program,DesignSuccessAcademycom.
Here I will teach youeverything you need to know to
run your interior designbusiness, from starting the

(51:22):
project all the way to the end,including marketing and pricing
your services for profit.
And for more information onthis podcast, including how to
be a guest or my design servicesin general, go to johnmcclainco
.
That's johnmcclainco.
See you soon, friend.
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