Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do we know if we
really are getting something
that aligns with beliefs underthis umbrella of cruelty-free
design and non-toxic design, andso forth?
What are we looking for?
What components are important,what components aren't important
, and so forth?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I think it's baby
steps, because then you can just
overwhelm yourselves and donothing.
But if you're going to startanywhere, I think starting with
the bedroom is easy.
And to me, the bedroom isprobably the most important
space in a home, because wespend nearly a third of our life
there and it's when our body ishealing itself.
When we sleep, our body ishealing ourselves.
We're cleansing.
We're cleansing out all ourtoxins.
So what we surround ourselveswith in our bedroom, to me, is
(00:35):
so important.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Hey y'all, you're
listening to the Designer Within
Podcast, episode number 46.
I'm John McClain and welcome tothe Designer Within podcast,
the business-minded podcastcreated for creative
entrepreneurs by a creativeentrepreneur that's me.
I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that
(00:56):
can come with our careers, andI'm here to sip and spill the
tea with you.
It's time to dive deep withinyourself and redesign your own
business and your life from theinside out.
Together, we will uncoversecrets and share valuable
insights.
So prepare for a transformativeexperience, my friends, because
it's time to unleash thedesigner within.
(01:19):
Hey friends, welcome back toanother episode of the designer
within.
I'm John McClain and I'm very,very happy to have you here If
you're listening to this in realtime.
It is May of 2024, and I have alot of things going on this
month, and especially a lot ofthings going on this week, oh,
my goodness.
(01:39):
So, for those of you who know meor who follow me or have just
heard what's going on, Irelocated to Las Vegas from Los
Angeles and that move was goingto be a full-time move, and I
still kept my LA clients andstill kept my business
functioning in LA.
(01:59):
And then I found myself in LA alot more than I had anticipated
physically a lot more.
So I was back in Los Angelesprobably at least once a month,
working with clients and workingon projects and just doing
business things in LA.
So, long story short, we keptour home in LA my husband and I
did and we just came to thedecision that our lives are
(02:22):
fully in Los Angeles and decidedto move back to Los Angeles,
and so that is what has happened.
So if you're wondering whythere is a missed week in the
podcast episodes of last week,that is the reason why we were
in the midst of movingphysically moving from Las Vegas
back to Los Angeles, but wemoved back into our house.
(02:43):
I love this house and it is thehouse that I actually
redesigned prior to moving, andyou can go on to my website or
my Instagram page and see thehouse.
It was a true labor of love.
I called it the Modern LoftBungalow and it was one of those
projects that you know webought this house during the
pandemic and, of course, being adesigner, you guys know how it
(03:04):
is.
I decided to renovate itcompletely, so we bought a brand
new house and then gutted itcompletely, but we decided to
move back into the house andback to Los Angeles full time.
So here we are.
Thanks for your patience andmissing an episode last week.
I am back in full force and sohappy to be here with you and
head over to my Instagram pageif you want to kind of keep up
(03:25):
with all of the shenanigansthere.
Also.
I just wanted to mention if youare enjoying the podcast and
finding some great benefits fromit.
Please share the podcast with afriend.
Please share it with acolleague.
I love to get the good word outabout helping other people in
the industry.
It is just a great way to sharethe information inside of the
podcast, which is the wholeentire reason that I created
(03:46):
this podcast was to shareinformation, as you all know.
So please share the podcast and, if you feel so inclined, I
would love it if you could leaveme a review on whatever
platform you listen to thepodcast on.
All right, that is the homeworkout of the way and I have a
great new episode for you today.
On today's episode, I have DebraDimar.
(04:08):
Debra is an interior designconsultant, author, educator and
pioneer of the ethical wellnessdesign movement.
She specializes in furnitureand decor that is non-toxic,
vegan and designed for optimalmental and physical wellness.
Chemicals and animal-basedfurniture and decor can trigger
physical and mental illness, shesays.
(04:28):
Deborah feels that ourenvironment has a direct effect
on our health.
Deborah was a design consultanton TLC's In a Fix and she has
been featured in AD, hollywoodReporter, forbes, better Homes
and Garden and Dwell, just toname a few.
She has also appeared on theToday Show and has authored a
book on healthy and humanedesign.
(04:48):
So this is a great episode ifyou are interested in the vegan
and non-toxic, cruelty-freedesign movement, and Debra
really is passionate about it.
She is a pioneer in thisindustry and we are going to
dive into her philosophy behindthat, what she offers as her
teaching mechanisms for you andfor consumers as well.
(05:10):
So sit back, relax and enjoythis very informative episode
with Debra Dimar Debra, I wantto welcome you to the Designer
Within Podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
It is a delight to
have you here.
I was just chatting with youand we haven't actually had this
discussion on the podcastbefore, which is why I wanted to
bring you on.
This is so relevant.
It's a timely discussion anyway, but especially these days when
I feel so many more peopledesigners and consumers in the
world are becoming morecognizant of non-toxic design
(05:41):
and vegan design andcruelty-free design and all of
those things.
So we're going to dive deepinto that, why it's so important
to you, all of those things.
But before we do that, theyheard my official quote, unquote
bio of you before we started.
But can you tell everyone inyour own words a little bit
about your past and how youbecame a designer and then how
you sort of morphed into thismovement that you're in?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So I have been
designing now, oh gosh, over 22
years or so and I have had noformal training.
Everything was organic.
I am the mother of twins and Iwas a full-time mom until my
children went into kindergartenand first grade actually.
And then I said, okay, I'mready to start working and I was
looking for something part-time, because having twins is, you
know, a lot, and I decorated afriend's home as a favor and
(06:27):
that is how my business started.
Quite honestly, her neighborcalled me, then her cousin
called, and then the cousin'scousin called and I was telling
everyone hey, listen, I've neverbeen to school, I don't have
any formal training, and no onereally seemed to care and it was
interesting because I screwedup a lot.
But I also learned how tosurround myself with people that
(06:48):
were much smarter than me andhad the technical background
which I lacked.
I had the creativity, I assume,but I lacked the technical
background.
So my business, I was reallyjust thrown into it and a couple
of years later I became adesigner on TLC.
Later I became a designer on TLC, which really catapulted my
company and my career, and soit's been a really interesting
(07:09):
path that I've had, and myfamily and I just love animals.
I mean, our entire life reallyrevolves around our pets,
literally.
And here I was designing spacesthat, if I think back, every
room contained something thatwas derived from the tragedy of
an animal or, as I now know, alaborer, a worker, and the
(07:29):
planet and the oris andeverything you know wool, rugs,
feather down leather, cowhide,everything, shark skin, angora
and I've been involved withanimal rights organizations for
many years PETA, farm Sanctuary,mercy for Animals, woodstock
Sanctuary, catskill Sanctuary,so many of them because I'm such
a believer in helping to saveanimals and bring awareness to
(07:52):
their horrible treatment.
So here I was, on one end, youknow, doing all this work for
these animal rightsorganizations and on the other,
buying leather.
And I always say you have to beready for change, john, because
I've had endless videos passthrough my feed and clearly I
did not want to open them at thetime because I wasn't ready.
So I was just living in mylittle Hippocratic world, you
(08:13):
know, with my head under thesand.
But one day I opened a videofrom PETA on dog leather, and
that was the day that was about10 years ago that after viewing
that video, I said I'm done, I'mreally done.
And China's the leading exporterof leather and anything can be
considered a skin there, becausethey eat dog, like we cow here.
(08:33):
They eat dog, so dogs are skins.
You could have a leather sofathat could be dog skin.
It's a true reality.
It could be kangaroo skin.
I mean, I think Nike got bustedwith that one when they called
it K-leather and they found outit was kangaroo skin.
For me, that was the turningpoint and what was really
interesting, what happened afterthat?
(08:53):
Because I said we are no longerusing anything derived from
animals, so we got rid of wool,we got rid of leather, we got
rid of fur down.
I mean, we think about it, allthe things that are in our
furniture.
So it was a learning curve forme, a tremendous learning curve,
because a lot of the vendorshad never been asked these
questions before.
When we would order a sofa,they would say, well, we're
using vegan leather or we'reusing a got certified linen or
(09:16):
something, and I would say, yeah, but what's under the sofa?
Oh well, we don't know.
That's all I need to know.
Is there down?
I don't know.
This was you're talking 10 yearsago and I had to learn a lot
and what happened was about ayear after, I get an email from
a designer in Australia andshe's asking me all about vegan
design, and I wrote back to her.
(09:36):
I said how did you even knowthat I'm doing vegan design?
And she said well, you'renumber one on Google for vegan
design.
I said I am Because I was sobusy trying to just write
articles and, have you know,just starting to build awareness
to people.
I wanted people to know what Iwas understanding and learning
every day, and so I reallybecame a pioneer which I laugh
(10:00):
at, you know, but I was thepioneer in vegan design and we
then developed a course fordesigners and consumers on vegan
design and it's been taken inalmost every country, which to
me, is also incredible.
We had people from Saudi Arabiataking the course, places that I
wouldn't imagine would be ofinterest and so we started the
course because so many designerswere contacting me and my
(10:23):
assistant was like Debra, weneed to just make a course, we
don't have time to respond likethis anymore.
And that just kind of led toeverything, and it was really
huge rabbit hole, because Iquickly discovered that it
wasn't just about animals, itwas about child laborers, it was
about workers.
The average tannery worker inIndia dies at 55 years old.
It was about the streams andthe forests and the wildlife,
and the planet and the ecosystem, and it's just this whole.
(10:47):
I just entered this huge rabbithole and to this day, john, I'm
still learning.
There was not a day that goesby that I don't learn something.
Wow, I'm like wow, I reallydidn't know that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, I think all of
us are always learning, and what
I'm hearing from you is twothings.
First, you said you didn't havea quote formal education with
design but you jumped inheadfirst and you made learning
a priority and you've surroundedyourself with intelligent
people.
When I agree with all of that.
But also, when you had thisrealization that you wanted to
be this pioneer in the vegan andnon-toxic design movement, you
(11:20):
decided like, okay, I'm going todo this, I'm going to learn
everything that I can about that, which sometimes, when there's
not someone like you, deborah,to give us that information,
it's not sitting on a silvertray, right.
So I'm sure you had to do somedigging.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah, yeah, what was?
What was that process like?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
It was.
It was harrowing and it was sad, because I then wrote a book
called Vegan Interiors and theresearch for that book.
Because I then wrote a bookcalled Vegan Interiors and the
research for that book, we wouldhave to call places, for
example in Texas, that sellsnake skins and crocodile skins,
pretending that we wanted toorder them.
I was practically crying on thephone because they would say
well, you know, if you want onewith less scars on it, it's this
(11:58):
price, and if you want one with, you know, no scars on it.
So it was very hard emotionallyfor me, but I just kept saying
it's all about bringingawareness.
I think if people know eight,it takes eight cows to make a
sofa, typical sofa, eight cows.
And people say, well, they usethe meat.
No, no, no, that's a completelydifferent industry, completely
different industry.
So don't convince yourself andfeel less guilty because you
(12:22):
think that they're using it.
For me, which is also thecattle industry, we can't even
go into that because that's awhole nother subject and that is
also despicable.
But over 150 billion animalsare killed yearly for their
skins.
So eight cows to make one couchFeather down.
I mean just learning about whatgoes on in these industries for
(12:43):
animals.
And again, it's not only aboutthe animals, john, we got a hold
of an animal handler sheet forcrocodiles.
What they have to sign off onDrug addiction, cancers,
respiratory issues because ofall the toxins and chemicals
that they use and also for theemotional distress that they
undergo having to slaughterthese animals Wool, you know, I
see responsible wool now I swearI want to like wring the neck
(13:04):
of every store that carries thattag.
There is no such thing asresponsible wool.
It's complete crap.
It was a great marketing move byPatagonia because they got
busted for something calledmulesing, which is an awful
tactic they use on sheep andthat's what sheep are.
What they're doing now isthey're breeding sheep merino
wool.
They're breeding them to haveso much wool on them that they
(13:26):
can barely stand and becausethere's so much wool they get
maggots.
So what they discovered was andyou know, every sheep is not an
animal, it's just a number,it's money.
So what they've discovered isif they remove the skin by their
hind area, it scars over andthat's where the maggots can't
go.
But they were doing that withcrude knives on sheep and they
do it like in a merry-go-roundboom, boom, boom, boom.
(13:48):
You know in places that there'sno regulations on anything.
So they got busted with videosof that.
They got busted with downerswhere they took the sheep and
they broken-knife, they throwthem into a pile and they're
still alive, and all theseterrible things.
So they came up with responsiblewool, which is lud same thing
with responsible leather.
Now you see, which doesn't evenmake sense, because how could
(14:08):
it be responsible?
So if it's a skin from a deadanimal, I had to really try to
separate my emotions from it andsay I want to.
For me, I really believe thatmost people, if they cared about
animals, if they cared aboutthemselves and their families,
they would reconsider theirchoices, because all these skins
and animal products are loadedwith chemicals, loaded and they
(14:31):
don't just disappear when theycome into your house.
So if we want to appeal to aperson who's just about thinking
about themselves and let's saythey don't care about animals,
well, at least think aboutyourself and your family.
What are you doing when you'rebringing in a downed pillow?
It's loaded with pesticides,allergens.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Do you feel like the
industry?
You mentioned sort of thismarketing side of things and I
find that very fascinating.
It's almost like when you pickup a box of cereal and it's low
fat Well, low fat compared to alot right and I tend to get that
it's what you're going afterhere.
And we see sustainability isbecoming more prevalent, et
cetera, et cetera.
But what does one do to digdeeper?
(15:07):
When they're seeing theselabels and you get, you know,
maybe someone doesn't know and Iwant to talk more about how we
do know.
But how do we find out morefrom this vendor?
So, say, a vendor says oh yes,we are cruelty free, we are an
advocate for this and we supportthis.
And they come up with some term, some generic term that sounds
light and fluffy and fabulousand wonderful, and we're like,
(15:27):
oh, my gosh, I feel so greatwhen you dig a little deeper,
you're like, oh, that's actuallymeans nothing really, when you
go below the surface.
So is it just about asking thevendor?
Is it just about do you need tocome to them with statistics
and go to them and say what doyou do?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I'll give you a good
example Pottery barn it's very
hard for retailers to findcompletely vegan sofas Now
you're finding them more andmore but also ones that are very
comfortable.
It's difficult because it'smissing the feather.
So Pottery Barn came up with agreat sofa.
I love it.
I think it's called the CloudSofa and it's so cushy and soft
and it's completely vegan.
So I went to the store here inMiami and they were telling me
(16:03):
how it's vegan this and that,and I was like this is awesome.
So then when I was in New Yorkwith a client, I'm like I want
to show a client this sofa.
I go in the store and I'm likewhere's your vegan sofa?
She's like we don't have allour sofas contained down.
I'm like, well, what about thissofa here?
And I showed it to her.
And this woman I got lucky withthis salesperson.
She said give me a minute.
She was gone 30 minutes.
(16:24):
I thought she completely forgotabout us.
She came back and she said youknow what?
This sofa does not containfeather.
We had no idea.
So we got lucky with thatsalesperson.
But if you get the averagesalesperson who's in cranky mood
, it's the end of the day.
They're not going to do theresearch.
So ask the salesperson, butthen you have to triple check.
Get on Google, email us.
(16:44):
We get questions every day.
We'll check it out for you.
We'll do the best we can Get onGoogle and research.
You have to research.
Education is power.
It's such a great tool to haveunder your belt when you go in
armed and ready to say where isthis, what is this made?
Tell me the film.
How do you know?
Is it just the top coat or isit under?
(17:04):
You just have to ask questions,and the only way you're going
to know more questions to ask isby educating yourself, or else
you're just asking random,stupid questions.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Are there
organizations that maybe you
said you have a list and youhave ideas.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
What's interesting is
that I think we're the only
ones that work with allretailers, because we always get
the question where can we go tobuy things that are not
animal-based?
There's no one retailer, unlessyou're doing all custom with us
, which is 10 times the price,so there's no specific retailer.
We use a plethora of retailersthat we know.
(17:38):
We have certain items we likeand we're always keeping our eye
open.
So just getting on Google andagain you can email us because
we want to help.
We feel that if we teach oneperson something, then they tell
another person.
Then before you know it, youknow it takes a village.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, those
grassroots efforts, yes, yes,
yes.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Because there's
really no one place.
I mean, with makeup and thingslike that, it's completely
different.
You can find things that arecruelty free, but as far as
furniture, there's a SustainableFurnishings Council, which is
complete bogus as well, and Itried to have long conversations
with the founder because one oftheir supporters is Patagonia.
So I said to her isn't that abit of a conflict?
You're talking aboutsustainable furnishings, but you
(18:17):
have Patagonia on your boardand you're as a sponsor, so you
really have to think about wherethe information is coming from,
which we all know.
I mean, you can have a10-year-old writing a report on
Google and you have to look atthe source.
You must look at the source ofthings.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Definitely.
I love the examples that you'vegiven so far about cruelty-free
design and just, basically,things that are non-toxic and
all that.
But what are some, I guess, keyprinciples that we would look
for?
Because for me, you'rementioning leather and you're
mentioning some of the biggerpicture things.
But let's take a sofa as a, forinstance.
So you have, yes, the veganleather, but then you also have
(18:55):
the wood Was it sustainablygrown?
And then you have all thecomponents of the filling and
all the things right.
So do we analyze everything?
Debra?
Do you recommend analyzingevery component of everything
that we bring in, or is itsomething that we just basically
do?
A blanket understanding of itall?
Like, how do we know if wereally are getting something
(19:16):
that aligns with beliefs underthis umbrella of cruelty-free
design and non-toxic design andso forth?
Like, what are we looking for?
When do we stop the search?
For instance, like, whatcomponents are important, what
components aren't important, andso forth?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I think it's baby
steps because then you can just
overwhelm yourselves and donothing.
You know you could venture thatlike circle of, like that
hurricane and just notaccomplish anything.
But I think there are certainsimple things that I'll tell
people.
Or when I'm on a podcast I'llsay if you're going to start
anywhere.
I think starting with thebedroom is easy, and to me the
bedroom is probably the mostimportant space in the home
(19:50):
because we spend nearly a thirdof our life there and it's when
our body is healing itself.
When we sleep, our body ishealing ourselves.
We're cleansing.
We're cleansing out all ourtoxins.
So what we surround ourselveswith in our bedroom to me is so
important Bedding Easy, gotscertified Global Organic Text,
easy, gots certified Globalorganic textile standard.
To me, that's the granddaddy ofcertifications.
(20:11):
It's also fair trade.
It's wonderful.
So look for that certificationwhen you're buying.
Is that a label on the actual?
It's a tag and it'll say Gotscertified G-O-T-S.
Perfect, because God Certifiedwill also sell some animal
products.
So you want an organic cotton,an organic linen.
Those are two great materialsfor your bed.
(20:32):
I love organic cotton sheetsand I say, if you're going to
spend the buck, spend them inyour bed.
Again, it's a very importantspace for us, for our body, for
our health, for our mental andphysical wellness, because it's
all connected.
It's all connected.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, the benefits of
it are far reaching.
I'm sure you know emotionalwellness, all the things as you
say.
This could really you could godown a rabbit hole of you know,
wondering where to start andwhere to stop.
When I think of, I mean and alot of people probably do as
well, you know you hear, ofcourse, low VOC paints.
Right, there was a big pushwith low VOC paints and I feel
like most paint companies nowhave that option.
(21:06):
I feel like most paintcompanies now have that option.
And can you just talk aboutthat a bit and how maybe has
that influenced the industry?
Has that made?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
a change.
You know what?
I think the big shift came withCOVID, I think, when people
were stuck in their homes andthey really started to analyze
their spaces and one of theeasiest things to do was repaint
a room.
So I think that broughteducation about paint.
And, as I always say, stay awayfrom cheap paint, don't buy
paint, don't paint, because ifyou're only going to paint with
(21:35):
a cheap paint, stay away from it.
Volatile organic compounds Awful, and again they don't know.
Every year they say theydissipate after 10 years, they
dissipate after five years, theydissipate after 15 years and no
one even knows.
So stick with.
I like Benjamin Moore.
They have the EcoSpec paint.
It's not as expensive as Farrowand Wall, it's not clearly as
(21:56):
expensive as slime paints ofEurope and that's a great paint.
They can do it in any color.
So use a paint that definitelyhas low VOCs.
There's so many neurological anddevelopmental and respiratory
issues that are so connected toall of these chemicals and
toxins.
I mean it's not even justthoughts anymore or ideas, these
are facts.
I mean autism, spectrumdisorders, sensory challenges,
developmental delays,infertility, allergies are so on
(22:19):
the rise and it's because wespend so much of our time
indoors.
Now, you know, a hundred yearsago people were outside more
than they were inside.
Now we're inside more than weare outside.
So our walls, what's inside,our environment, is so key to
our mental and physical health.
So the bedroom start with thesheets.
Get God-certified organiccotton sheets.
Your pillows don't do down.
(22:41):
Your face is pressed up againstthose feathers.
Those feathers are loaded withtoxins.
I've gotten used to using K-Pak, which is the beans.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And I like it.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
It makes it kind of a
squishy noise, but you get used
to it.
You can also.
There's, there's all there.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I haven't tried that
before.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You know, you can
just try.
There's also, likehypoallergenic fillers, like I
prefer, believe it or not, usinga petrochemical as opposed to
using a feather, which sometimesyou have to choose Rugs, do I
go?
I'm not going to use a wool rugbecause that is loaded, loaded,
loaded, loaded with pesticides.
So if I have to do a poly or anylon, okay, but of course I'd
rather have an organic cotton,which would be ideal and it's
(23:19):
also healthier, especially forallergies, because you have to
think about everything thatcollects dust.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yes, and did we start
with our children's rooms?
We start in the nursery.
I mean, obviously you knowbedrooms are important, but
obviously the space would be tostart young right In your in
your children's room?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, I mean the
place to start is the nursery.
If you have that luxury, startin the nursery.
And you know I have the kidsonline nursery and kids course,
which I know we're going tomention, but there's so many
things in the course that wereso that I really wanted to make
sure I communicated properly.
And that is that when you lookon Instagram and you see a
celebrity's nursery, which youknow, this that took them a week
(23:54):
to stage and there isabsolutely nothing practical
about that nursery, nothing youcan see.
The crib is by a window.
You know it's just so.
Less is more in a nursery, lessis more.
Your baby grows, god willing,so quickly.
Get a cheap organic cotton rug,put a low VOC paint on the
walls, get a crib that'snon-toxic and get sheets that
(24:16):
are not printed.
You have to make sure you knowhere's little things organic
printed sheets.
A sheet can be organic andnon-toxic, but the print on it
can be completely toxic and it'slegal to sell that way.
So you have to be reallycareful when you get those cute
little sheets that say organiccertified with little dinosaurs,
because, guess what, thedinosaurs could be completely
toxic.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
See, this is what I
mean.
It's multilayered ofunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
That's why it goes
simple Just get plain, go get
plain, got certified sheets forthe baby, don't worry about the
print, easy peasy right.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
When you were
starting out.
By the way, just quick questionwhen you were starting out and
you decided to make thistransition over into becoming a
pioneer in the vegan andnon-toxic, were you apprehensive
about possibly losing clients,losing business and not making a
living doing that?
Because when you started doingit it wasn't.
There wasn't even a movement,it wasn't even prevalent, it
wasn't even a thing.
(25:10):
Quote unquote.
Were you concerned about thatat?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
the time.
No, which was probably stupid,because I was so emotional about
it, because I love animals somuch, like so much, and my kids,
we all love animals so muchthat I which was probably the
worst business advice to give Beemotional You're never supposed
to be emotional in business butit forced me to be very
(25:36):
creative.
So how do I?
What do I mean by that?
I can't force, I will neverforce, a client to go vegan or
non-toxic.
Remember that movie, the BigFat Greek Wedding?
Did you ever see that movie?
Okay, one of the best scenes iswhen she's at the diner with her
dad and she's convincing himthat it's his idea that she
should go to college.
Do you remember that scene?
It was a very funny scene andthat's what I do with clients.
(25:58):
I will go there and let's saythere's a client saying I want a
big leather couch in this mediaroom.
Like, okay, great, you knowwhat?
When I see next I'm going tocome back with some samples.
I see them next time.
I bring my beautiful, veryhigh-end, expensive, vegan
leather samples with realleather and I say I have all
these samples and like, oh, mygod, they're gorgeous.
I'm like I know, I'm so excitedto show you.
(26:20):
Okay, let's compare.
Okay, we're going to put alittle like juice on this one
and this one's a faux, veryhigh-end luxury.
And let's put it on the realleather.
Oh no, it's so prepped into theleather.
Oh, that sucks.
Okay, let's you know what?
Let me scratch the real leather.
Oh, my God, it's scratchedbecause it's the skin.
Let's do the faux leather.
Look at this, it doesn'tscratch.
(26:41):
You know, I don't know aboutyou, but I'm thinking we go with
the faux leather.
Oh, a hundred percent.
So it's like a big factorywedding.
And, of course, nothing that I'msaying is not untrue.
It's all true.
I'm just bringing awareness andI'm allowing the client to have
control, because you never wantto force like with my children.
(27:01):
I never can.
I never want to force feed my.
Don't do this because I'm older, and of course I know when
they're going to screw up.
You know it's it's, it's adance about letting them feel
empowered.
And it's the same with clients.
Everyone wants to be heard.
It's all psychology.
Everyone wants to be heard.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
So I love that
philosophy.
I come to you now actuallyasking for it, now that it's
actually becoming moremainstream and more known and
you're becoming more known forit.
Are people saying, yes, I wantto work with Debra because she
is?
Yes, yes Now.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I get clients all
over.
How nice is that right?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
It has to feel great
for you.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Well, it's
interesting.
Some of them are vegan.
Most of them are about thechemicals.
For me, when I'm talking on apodcast, if you want to just
focus on chemicals, I'll do that, because, guess what?
The end game for me is savinganimals and workers, and that is
how it's worked If you arevegan and we're going to talk
about vegan.
Terrific, because it's allconnected.
It's also look and this is allsensory design.
I design spaces for people withneurological issues like autism
(27:59):
, and there's no way that youcan design a space for someone
with autism that has the smellof leather, the smell of wool,
the texture of wool.
You have to design a space asclean as possible.
Someone in the spectrum ofautism?
Their sensitivities are justmuch more exacerbated than ours.
We have the same sensitivities,but for them it's much more,
it's stronger.
So this is something that I'vekind of always done, but now
(28:22):
it's labeled.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Very cool.
You mentioned the pandemicearlier, and something popped
into my mind Also that happened,I feel, during the pandemic is
that people were ready to changetheir homes and maybe they
didn't want to bring a designerin or wanted to do it cheaply.
They ended up buying all thisbasically cheap furniture full
of formaldehyde and all toxinsand so forth, and then when they
start falling apart here, theygo to the curb right and so our
(28:44):
landfills are full of thesethings and all of that.
So it's just this cycle ofpeople, you know, buying
something for the price and thennot understanding that quality
furniture, quality furnishingslast longer, of course, but
there's so many more benefits ofit, as you say, for your
physical health, for your mentalhealth, right, and it does take
(29:05):
a certain type of client to dothat, to understand that and to
really soak that in.
And I always say a client, theydon't know what they don't know,
right, and it's up to us toeducate them, and I love that
you're doing that and I lovethat you're providing a way for
other designers to do that aswell.
Have you gotten any pushback,any resistance from, first of
all?
Have you gotten any pushbackfrom clients?
(29:25):
And, if so, what did you do andhave you secondly part of that
question have you gotten anypushback from designers or other
people in the industry as youare spreading the good work that
you have?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
From clients?
No, I haven't, becauseespecially think about my avatar
.
I mean we have virtual.
Well, I shouldn't say I havemany avatars in my client, in my
company.
I love doing virtual designs andI do them personally and those
are inexpensive because I love,I'm so happy when someone comes
to me and wants to help the kindspace so I always am able to
(29:58):
work out something with them.
So that's one thing I do and Ido that on the side, I just love
doing it.
And then I have the ultraluxury client, which is a
completely different animal, andmany of them that come to me
they're very into health andwellness, so they love the whole
aspect of low chemicals, of thepsychology of a biophilic,
clean, harmonious space.
(30:19):
Because, you know, I always sayit's amazing because I'm
helping you design a spacethat's free from tragedy and
despair.
The energy which I'm such abeliever in, energy is good,
clean, beautiful energy and Ithink that resonates with people
, even if they're not reallysuper, super deep.
I think that does resonate witha lot of people that there's
(30:39):
good energy in this space.
There's no bad juju, you know.
So from clients I really haven'tgotten that, and from the
industry I've not gotten that,if anything, I think it's been
interesting for designers,especially new designers,
because I always say you must,must, develop a niche.
You must, or you will justdrown out in the sea of other
designers.
(31:00):
However, having said that, wemust work together.
I'm always telling designersthere should be no competition.
We had a project, my associatehad a project in Zurich and he's
like I need a team.
I said wait a minute, I knowthat we have people in Zurich
that took the course.
He connected with someone inZurich that took the course.
So there should be nocompetition.
We all work together.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Oh, you said two
things, that is.
I love exactly what you justsaid.
You've got to find a niche andyou have to make yourself stand
out in the sea of designersbecause, yes, everybody loves
interior design, but what makesyou special, what makes you
unique and you've definitelyfound your niche 100%.
And the other thing is, too islike having this abundance
mindset of we all win.
(31:42):
We all are raising each otherup and helping one another.
I love that, and I'm surethere's a sense of that too.
When you're doing what you'redoing, right, I'm sure there's
this wonderful good feeling,just in general, that not only
are you helping your clients butyou're helping the world, right
?
How do you explain that?
What good vibes, what goodfeeling, because I'm all about,
(32:05):
you know, as you say, goodenergy.
I am as well, and I love whenthings are far reaching, when
not only does my designphilosophy affect this client
and that client's family, butthen those arms, they start to
reach out into other places andmaybe that client can start to
educate his neighbors and hisfriends and family about those
things, right?
Does that have an influence onyou as well?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
How does that make
you feel?
It makes me feel so proud.
For example, one of the firstpeople that took the course in
the very beginning was a womannamed Chloe Bullock and she's
out in London.
Chloe just wrote a book onvegan design.
She has formed an organizationof other people that have taken
the course and in London theyhave their own group that are
promoting vegan design and havetaken the course and in London
(32:46):
they have their own group thatare promoting vegan design.
And when she called me, we hada Zoom call and told me about
her book and how she's gettingall these sponsorships and
endorsements.
I was so proud that.
Look at how this, just from anidea, has spread.
So it's really incredible.
And even my associate, santiago,and I we do many projects
together for many years.
We each have our own companies,but we partner a lot.
And he's not vegan in his firmyet, but he knows with me
(33:06):
anything we do is vegan.
But he said I can't go to astore anymore and now look at a
cashmere sweater.
I'm like good, because I wantyou to think of that poor animal
.
He's like I can't, I just can'tdo it anymore.
So you just I always say you'relaying little seeds, the seeds,
the seeds.
You're spreading those seedsall over and it's it's great to
wake up with a passion and notto say that not.
(33:26):
There are days that are verydifficult, as we all know anyone
in this industry.
We all have stories, I'm sure,of monster clients.
I've had horrible, unhappypeople and they think that.
My Santiago says this, which Ithink is interesting.
He said I think what happenswith certain clients is we are
coming in to decorate their homeand they're very unhappy to
begin with.
They have bad marriages, badpartnerships.
(33:48):
They're just unhappy people andthey think that by us
redecorating their spacesthey're going to find happiness.
So they get angry at us becausein the end they're still
unhappy and I'm like that's areally interesting point of view
.
But sometimes I think he'saccurate in some ways.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, we can't fix
everything, even though we try,
right, we can't fix it all.
That's too funny.
Are you seeing any innovations?
Or is there anything new thatyou're seeing right now in this
industry?
That's exciting?
You in the vegan and non-toxicdesign world that's really
getting you excited.
Any trends or anything that'slike oh, this is really cool, or
this is something different, ormaybe somebody who's taking
(34:26):
something in a different wayAnything that's getting you
excited right now?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, many things and
a few of them is that they're
coming out with thevegetable-based mycelium fabrics
and mycelium mushroom-basedfabrics.
They're not there yet but theywill be.
And they're not there yetbecause they're still not
malleable.
They're hard, they're coarseand they're loaded with
chemicals.
Because when you take, forexample, the cactus leather
(34:49):
right which you might have heardof, it's loaded with chemicals.
It's cactus.
How do you make it soft?
You have to laden that thingwith chemicals or else it's
still going to be hard cactus.
But I think that that's on thecusp.
So I think that's very, veryinteresting and I just think the
whole aspect of I'm beinginterviewed so much all the time
and I feel very, very fortunate.
But I think I'm beinginterviewed because people are
now interested and they'recalling it different things.
(35:11):
I was interviewed about a monthago for a magazine and they
wanted to talk about emotionaldesign.
They're giving everything goodnames which people connect with.
You know little good soundbites.
So emotional design is to mewhen we're talking about slowly
procuring our environment in ourhome, so it's evolved over time
, and making it clean andbeautiful and good energy.
(35:31):
That to me is slow design.
That's also emotional design,that's also vegan design, that's
also healthy design.
You know it's all connected.
So I think the buzzwords haveconnected with my philosophy of
design and I see that and that'svery exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, I was at market
I think it was last market or
the market before at High PointMarket and I saw a cork sofa
like a fabric.
The fabric was corked right andI thought how interesting,
right.
But I think the marriage thatyou have to find is marrying
functionality and practicalitywhile still adhering to these
vegan and non-toxic principlesthat we're talking about.
(36:08):
Right.
So it still has to functionwell, it still has to be
practical.
It can't just have all of theseother great characteristics and
not work for our client.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
No, no no, for
example, if I'm doing a living
room and it's a family with thekids and dogs and this, and that
I'm not about to do a cottonsofa, so I'm going to do a sofa
that's, you know, a perennial orsomething like that.
Maybe you know a fabric that'sOkatex certified not got
certified, but durable and theyhave this they have a lot of
those and I'll choose a carpetthat is not cotton, I'll choose
(36:38):
probably a nylon, because theyhave kids and they have dogs and
and so that's when I started toput my pillows obviously are
easy, throw pillows are easy,but the paint is easy, the
lighting I want to make sure thelighting.
You know lighting to me is alsovery important.
You know I can't stand allthese bright white lights in a
home.
I think they're terrible forour brain and the psychology of
(36:59):
of everything.
They're just hard.
They're terrible.
So I like to focus on lightingas well.
It's all connected definitelyall connected.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
I, you, you hit on
something there that I exactly.
That's where I was going withit as well, because we have a a
lot of families, a lot of busyfamilies with, you know, kids
with dirty hands did cookies ontheir hand, painters and all
those things, and that's wherethe parents' minds are there,
right, like, oh my gosh, how amI going to adhere to these?
You know I want to beconscientious about these
factors that you're telling meabout, but how do I also keep a
(37:27):
clean home and are there ways todo that?
And that's the part for me thatI feel would require the most
education.
I remember I did a home it was atraditional home a few years
back and it was all lightcolored fabrics and all the
things, and there was a familythat lived there and I had so
much flack from the public aboutputting these into a client's
home, and it was just thisgeneral misknowledge of the
(37:50):
public of thinking that lightcolored fabrics do not belong in
any sort of family environment,any sort of environment where
you know they have to be keptclean and on a regular basis.
Right, but you're you're sayingthere are ways to do that,
Absolutely, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
It's all about the
fabric and the durability I mean
.
Things like that are commonsense.
I had a family in the nursery.
She wanted to put a shag, awhite shag rug, and because we
found an organic cotton one, shefound one.
I said are you kidding?
I said there's going to be poop, vomit, everything on that part
group in a week.
What Right?
But it didn't seem practical,you know.
(38:23):
But yeah, you can.
Light colors are beautiful, Ofcourse, they can be durable.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, and at the very
least I guess you could slip
cover that baby right.
So you've taken your knowledgeand you've turned it into
education, as you said.
We kind of touched on that, buttell me more about that,
because not only do you provideyour services for your clients,
but now you've extended that,and thank you for doing that.
By the way, thanks for givingyour knowledge to other people
who don't teach us a lot indesign school, and even if you
(38:50):
do go to design school, youdon't learn about these things.
So thanks for taking all ofthis and, kind of like I do with
my courses, you kind of bottleit up and you put it out there
for people to learn from.
Tell me about your courses andyour lessons and the things that
you teach other designers and Ithink, do you teach consumers
as well, or is it just fordesigners?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
No, it's consumers.
It's a lot of DIYers here.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So I have a newer
course which is about designing
spaces for kids and nurseries,and that course, to me, is more
dated and, quite honestly, john,it's for everyone, it's not
just for kids' spaces, it's thesame rules apply to all spaces
in the home.
But I just focused on thisbecause I felt that there was
such a need for it and I reallyreally like this course a lot
(39:32):
because I have so many greatexperts in the field.
I have the founder ofNeutropedic Mattresses, I have
Elisa Bronner from Dr BronnerSoaps, I have a sleep expert, I
have an occupational therapisttalking about sensory design and
it's a great course.
It's only two hours.
I made it, none of us have timeand you can take it when you
(39:53):
want.
It's great for consumers.
It's in layman's terms.
I'm heading the entire courseand I also teach you how to
design, how to put together aroom, how to put together
fabrics and placement andlayouts, and I give my thoughts
and my opinions on how I start aroom.
And I love this course so muchand it took over a year to put
(40:13):
together.
I think it's a really, reallygreat class.
I really do.
I've been getting greatfeedback from it and I think
people have great takeaways fromit.
And it's easy.
It's easy to understand.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Great, and then
you're offering for everyone
listening to the podcast.
I believe you're going to offera special.
Yes, yes, I believe you'regoing to offer a special for
everyone.
Yes, yes, is that correct?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Anyone who uses a
coupon code that's specific to
you gets 40% off the course,which is great because the
course isn't even expensive tobegin with.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Okay, and we'll put
that in the podcast notes for
everyone.
I think the code is theDesigner Within and you can get
a discount code for that.
That's great.
I love the message that youhave and the message that you're
spreading.
The message that you have andthe message that you're
spreading, I love that you havethis passion about it.
And what I hear and what I knowto be true for myself and for
you and for everyone else, iswhen you find that passion, when
you find that thing that youbelieve in, when you believe it
(40:59):
wholeheartedly and you throwyourself into it, it doesn't
even number one, it doesn't feellike work and number two,
everything else just flows.
So, naturally, the right peoplecome to you, the right clients
come to you, the right clientscome to you, the right
opportunities come to you andyou never, ever, ever.
I always say selling is servingand what you're doing is
(41:19):
definitely a serving model, forsure, when you are providing
this to other people, whenyou're providing the services
that you have, and I'm sure youfollow that belief as well.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yes, oh, my goodness.
Yeah, it's just.
I feel I get so happy when Iget an email from someone in
Missouri who has her child'sroom or wants to do her living
room and she's on a budget, butshe wants to do it healthy, she
wants to do it a vegan way, andit makes me so happy.
(41:46):
You know what I mean?
That here I am.
This woman now is kind enoughand smart enough and educated
enough to know that she wants tocreate a safe space for her
family and that says it all, youknow, isn't that wonderful, I
think.
I mentioned to you also beforethe call, we're starting a video
series.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Yeah, let's talk
about that.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
I own a home in
Hudson Valley, new York, which
is about two hours outside ofNew York City.
I bought this home it's almosta hundred years old.
Talk about in a neglected space.
I mean they found a 10 poundbeehive in the rafters for the
ceiling.
I mean the house was soneglected we had skunks living
in the house, like everything.
But it's a beautiful stoneJordan style home.
(42:26):
It's on 80 acres.
It's just beautiful.
It's in a very rural area northof New York City, because I'm
from New York originally,originally, originally.
So my associate and I said, hey,this would be a great backdrop
because it's stunning, it's juststunning Everywhere you look.
It's gorgeous to use and teachpeople all about healthy, vegan,
non-toxic design.
So we have, as I was tellingyou before the call, we have so
(42:49):
many hours of film footage thatwe started putting together
episodes on paint renovations,solar power, solar panels,
gardening, landscaping, firepits, flooring, bathroom design,
lighting, everything.
And so we're creating thisYouTube channel that will
hopefully be launched within acouple of months that I think
people will really enjoy belaunching within a couple months
(43:12):
.
That I think people will reallyenjoy and the videos are
anywhere from 10 to 15 minutesand you really get some great
takeaways on how to designspaces that are beautiful and
kind and as low in chemicals aspossible.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's exciting.
There's nothing like using yourown house as like this
experimental prototype right Totest things on and to share the
information with other peoplebecause, well, I don't know, I
guess you could be your worstclient.
I'm my worst client, debra.
I'll just tell you I am myworst client ever.
I don't listen to anything thatI speak at all.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Well, you know what I
noticed with myself.
I can't make decisions formyself With a client.
I can make a decision three anda half seconds With me.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I'm like I'm not sure
.
Should I?
I don't know the culture I know, I know I'm the exact same way,
the exact same way.
Before we wrap up, I want toask you a question Do you, is
there anything that you hope thefuture holds for the vegan and
non-toxic design movement?
Anything?
That you hope that you see inthe, in the realm of changing in
the industry.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Well, I hope that
there's a day when people say we
actually used to make sofas outof leather Like.
I look forward to that day.
I hope there's a day like that.
How barbaric.
How barbaric that we did thingslike that.
How barbaric that we treatedyoung children, laborers and
created working environments forthem that had no regulations
and that they were swimming intoxins.
(44:25):
How horrible that we did thingslike that.
That's what I look forward to.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
How do you see your
role being a part of that?
Do you still plan on doing thesame thing, do you?
Have any new you know spreadingthe message this was like a
turning point in my life.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Quite honestly, it
was.
I never, I can't.
When I decided to go vegan inmy business, I didn't know that
I would be here today speakingto you.
It was just something that Idid out of pure love for animals
.
But this is, you know, I foundmy.
I found my, my point of being.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
You really have and
and it comes across through
everything that you say thepassion is there, the heart is
there, the soul is there.
Every single thing that you'resaying I can tell comes from
deep within you and I applaudyou for that and we should all
be so lucky to find that thing.
That means so much to us and Ijust think it's great that you
really have become this pioneerin this really distinct industry
(45:13):
that, as you say, I hope is notso unique down the road.
I hope it is more mainstream andI hope more people do want for
it, ask for it, and I hope morevendors are listening to this
and will implement that as well.
You know, as I walk around HighPoint Market and Las Vegas
Market and you can actually getdirect interaction with these
vendors and sometimes even theowners of the companies are
there.
So I think that's a great placeor great time to come up to
(45:35):
them and just start asking thesequestions and, as you say, put
it right out there in front ofthem and tell them what you're
looking for and let them knowthat you want to see some
changes in our industry.
And I think that as thoselittle little steps, those
little grassroots efforts startto pay off eventually, and
before you know it, there's ahuge movement and once again,
thank you for just being a hugepart of that.
I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Well, thank you for
letting me speak about it.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah, tell everybody
where they can find you if they
want to find this new videoseries once it's out, but in the
meantime, where they can findyou now on social media, your
website, all that good stuff.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
And we'll put it in
the show notes.
Thank you so much.
If they go to Demare Design,they can get access to
deborahdemarecom.
They can see the Instagram page.
We have a very active Facebookgroup, so I think that's a good
start going to demaredesigncom.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Perfect Well, deborah
, thank you very much for being
here today.
Thanks for all of theinformation, and I know that it
has inspired all of my listeners.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Thank you so much,
John.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Thanks for sticking
with me to the end of the
Designer Within podcast.
It means the world to me.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto the topics that we've
discussed here, be sure to checkout my online coaching and
courses program,DesignSuccessAcademycom.
Here I will teach youeverything you need to know to
run your interior designbusiness, from starting the
project all the way to the end,including marketing and pricing
(46:52):
your services for profit.
And for more information onthis podcast, including how to
be a guest or my design servicesin general, go to johnmcclainco
.
That's johnmcclainco.
See you soon, friend.