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June 17, 2024 50 mins

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What if you could turn your passion into a thriving career? This week, I sit down with Jamie Gasparovic, the visionary founder and principal designer of Studio Gaspo, to uncover the secrets behind her meteoric rise from a marketing professional to a celebrated interior designer. Jamie takes us through her journey of launching her own firm at just 27, without traditional mentorship, and how sheer determination and self-reliance fueled her success.

Jamie generously shares hard-earned wisdom on valuing your work, setting appropriate pricing, and overcoming the guilt often associated with making money in creative fields. From listing out all deliverables to understanding business expenses, Jamie details practical strategies for setting and communicating prices that reflect the true value of your work. We also discuss client investment expectations, evolving business models, and how to handle the financial transition from salary jobs to self-employment, making this episode a treasure trove of advice for new and seasoned designers alike.

But that's not all; Jamie delves into the softer skills that are crucial for thriving in the design industry. We explore the importance of building confidence, refining your design style, and nurturing essential vendor relationships. Jamie emphasizes the power of education and community, encouraging designers to share their knowledge to elevate the industry collectively. Whether you're just starting out or looking to refine your existing practice, this episode offers actionable insights and inspiration to help you unleash the designer within you.

Find Jamie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/studiogaspo
Find Jamie on her website: https://studiogaspo.com/

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You have to value what you're bringing to the
table and really I think it'sjust as simple as sitting down
and listing all of thedeliverables that you bring, Do
you agree?

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Yeah, for sure.
And thinking about again, likeall your expenses to just be in
business and what you'd like tobring home and put in your
pocket and I know a lot ofdesigners aren't paying
themselves.
You need to pay yourself too.
That's important.
If this is a business and not ahobby, you need to make money
from it.
I think a lot of people feelbad about making money, which is
just a whole other conversation.
But just sit down and, yeah,really list those things out and

(00:31):
you'll just start to see ohyeah, this does cost me this
much to be open even, and I needto charge accordingly.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hey y'all, you're listening to the Designer Within
Podcast, episode number 49.
Designer Within Podcast,episode number 49.
I'm John McClain and welcome tothe Designer Within Podcast,
the business-minded podcastcreated for creative
entrepreneurs by a creativeentrepreneur that's me.
I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that

(00:59):
can come with our careers, andI'm here to sip and spill the
tea with you.
It's time to dive deep withinyourself and redesign your own
business and your life from theinside out.
Together, we will uncoversecrets and share valuable
insights.
So prepare for a transformativeexperience, my friends, because
it's time to unleash thedesigner within.

(01:21):
Hello, my friends, welcome toanother episode of the Designer
Within.
I am so happy to have you here.
On today's episode we have JamieDesperovic.
Jamie is a very talentedinterior designer, but also
you're going to love theconversation with Jamie because
we're going to dive deep intoher journey, her journey from

(01:41):
her past career in marketing andnow how she has moved into
interior design.
We really dive deep into thechallenges that she faced when
she left her former career,added design school and then
added her own business into that, because Jamie, unlike some of
us, did not start out workingfor someone else.
She jumped right into workingfor herself.
So she has lots of lessons toteach us about what she learned

(02:05):
in that process, some do's andsome don'ts and if you are
someone who is new on thejourney of owning your own
business, you're going toparticularly love this episode,
because Jamie opens up and letsyou in on all of the behind the
scenes of how she started herbusiness, what she would have
changed and basically, thesuccesses and failures that she
had that made her who she istoday.
We talk about the realities ofstarting a design business

(02:28):
overall, and then we go into theimportance of the investment
amount that the client isspending and the ever-important
client expectation.
We also talk about evolvingbusiness models and services and
how Jamie handles her pricingstrategies in relation to
industry comparison.
We also chat about how Jamieloves to plant seeds for future
success and how she has furthereducated herself after design

(02:51):
school on her own to furtherenhance all of her skills in the
design business.
Jamie is an open book.
Much like myself, she has agreat abundance mindset.
She is a talented designer, atalented entrepreneur, and you
are going to really enjoy all ofthe takeaways from this
conversation, ranging frombusiness startup to dealing with

(03:12):
trades and vendors, to yourmindset, to pricing.
Everything is in thisconversation.
Nothing is held back.
And here's a little info onJamie, some official info.
Jamie Disparovic is the dynamicfounder and principal designer
behind her boutique full-serviceinterior design firm, studio
Jaspo.
Recently, her moody, modernaesthetic has been celebrated by

(03:34):
Forbes Architectural DigestHomes and Gardens and Apartment
Therapy.
With close to a decade ofexpertise in luxury, large-scale
construction, ranging from newbuilds to full-scope renovations
, jamie has created a powerfulname for herself in Central
Florida.
Her robust client list includesprofessional athletes,
entrepreneurs, fortune 500executives and busy
professionals.

(03:54):
Today, she partners withprominent builders and
architects to design turnkeyproperties from floor plans to
finishes.
There you have it.
Enjoy this open, honest andrevealing conversation with
Jamie Desperavik of Studio Gaspo.
Jamie, welcome to the DesignerWithin Podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Hi, john, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
I am happy to have you here.
You are going to be my mindsetguru today.
We're going to talk about allthings mindset with you and lots
of other things too, but Ican't wait to dive into this
conversation because I feel likeyou have so much to share with
everyone about your journey,about what you've learned and
about what you've experienced.

(04:35):
But I gave everyone, as usual,my sort of professional bio of
yourself, but tell everyone howyou got involved in interior
design and what that led tocareer-wise for you currently.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Sure.
So this is, like many people,my second career.
I was originally in marketingadvertising world and I have a
business degree which I used tothink, oh, I wasted all that
time in school doing somethingelse.
Like when I was young and dumbI thought that.
But now I know it's so valuableand so many transferable skills
that helped me in my currentbusiness.

(05:09):
So I appreciate that backgroundnow.
So I did that for a few yearsand then just kind of realized
like I had always had a passionfor design.
My mom actually went back toschool for design when I was in
high school so I knew it was acareer path.
I feel like a lot of people sayI had no idea I could even do
that, like I knew.
But I thought, oh, that's mypassion, but like my

(05:32):
professional passion isadvertising, my hobby, fun
passion is design.
But then I just came to therealization like it can actually
be the same thing I can work inwhat I'm actually passionate
about, not just quote unquoteprofessionally passionate about.
So I went back to design school,got my associate's degree in

(05:52):
design and I didn't want to openmy own thing right away but it
sort of ended up happening thatway the person I was interning
for wanted to hire me but wasbasically like we can't pay you.
We love you, We'd love to hire.
Basically like we can't pay you, we love you, we'd love to hire
you, but we can't pay you.
So I ended up just opening myown firm from there, which I
don't necessarily advise.

(06:12):
I would have loved to make somemistakes on someone else's dime
and be under a little morementorship, but it's worked out
great and I don't like peopletelling me what to do really.
So it's been a good path,owning my own business.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I'd say it's worked out so far.
Yeah, Isn't it funny.
I just picked up on somethingthat you said and I felt the
same way too.
Is that what we enjoy?
As far as design and any othercareer path, we didn't feel
initially that it could be apaying career, right?
You didn't feel like, oh,someone's going to pay me to do
something that I love, and isn'tthat?

(06:48):
Isn't that just a terriblethought that just jumps into our
head initially?
Right, I felt the same way.
Right, it's just so terrible.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, it really is and it's.
Yeah, I distinctly rememberjust having that separation
between this is what I love andthen this is what I'm
professionally interested in.
I like it, but it's not likeI'm at home at night looking at
the latest marketing trends,like pouring over it, like I am
with design, and I thought thosehave to be separate.
But again, with some age andwisdom, like I learned, you can

(07:14):
be paid for your passion and Ithink I'm making a lot more
money now than I would have beenin my marketing career working
for a corporation at this point.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
So ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, working for a
corporation at this point.
So ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, there's the, there's the
winning bell right there,because you don't have to
connect the ball and chain toyour leg and, you know, sludge
your way into the office everyday and hate what you do.
Right, you can actually lovewhat you do and I think actually
to your point when you findsomething that you love, you're
going to excel at it and you'regoing to love it so much that
you're going to find a way tomake it work.

(07:44):
Now you mentioned that youdidn't work for someone else in
the beginning.
You basically jumped inheadfirst on your own.
If you don't mind me asking whatage were you when you started
working for yourself?

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I was 27 when I opened my business.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Wow Okay, very good.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Design school.
And, yeah, again, it's not thatI thought, oh, I'm never going
to work.
I think the end game was that Iwas going to have my own
business Again, I'm just very Ilike to be in charge, just like
you said.
I don't want to shackle Likeyou have to be here at this time
doing this.
I like to do things on my ownterms, but I think it would have
been nice to have worked forsomeone else.
Just, there's a lot to learnand again, design school does

(08:23):
not teach you anything aboutrunning a design business, and
even having a prior businessdegree, that doesn't teach you
anything about running a designbusiness.
There's so many intricate,weird things, so it would have
been nice to have a little bitof like behind the curtain, look
at someone else's stuff, but Ididn't get to do that.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
I also think there's something to be said about just
kind of throwing yourself intothe fire and really just say,
okay, I'm going to be learningby doing and learning by failing
.
Some of my biggest lessons andI'm sure you as well came from
making mistakes and havingproblems and overcoming those
problems.
Can you think back to when youfirst started to maybe?

(09:02):
What was a big challenge foryou?
What was the thing when youfirst started your business and
you were jumping into not onlydesign for yourself but
entrepreneurship?
Because, as you said, there aretwo separate things.
You can run a business in anytype of field and that is
entrepreneurship, and that isits own animal, but as a
designer, it has its own set ofproblems.

(09:23):
But what was the thing that youwere maybe timid about or most
scared?
Because a lot of peoplelistening to this podcast are
considering working in thedesign industry and maybe are
considering graduating designschool and working for
themselves but what was thething that you were most afraid
of or timid about when you firststarted your company?

Speaker 2 (09:41):
I don't know if afraid or timid is the word, but
I think I had no idea.
Just like clients have no ideawhat things cost, I had no idea,
like what things cost, what Ishould be charging, what a
reasonable furniture budget was,all of that stuff.
I do not come from a fancybackground.
My family never had an interiordesigner.

(10:03):
I'm very middle class, whatever.
So my concept of what'sexpensive, especially as a 26
year old in design school, islike very different from an
interior design client's conceptor what's appropriate if you're
hiring a designer in thisluxury service.
So I distinctly remember havingmy inquiry form and someone

(10:23):
putting like $15,000 as theirbudget for all these it wasn't a
full house but for a lot ofthings and I was like, oh my God
, oh my God In a good way.
I thought that was insane Insanethat someone had a $15,000
budget that I could use.
And then now I just think aboutthat.
I'm like, oh my God, what canyou give $15,000?
Nothing.
And I'm like, oh my God, whatcan you give $15,000?

(10:44):
Nothing.
So it was just.
I just feel like I was a littlenaive as to what things cost and
I tried to fit a square peg ina round hole with doing
furniture for people.
And the funny thing is, like,from the get-go I was using
trade sources.
I had a receiving warehouse,like I was doing all of that,
but that is expensive.

(11:04):
Like that you have thereceiving fees, you have the
storage, you have theinstallation Like it's a whole
ordeal and I was really tryingto make that work for people
that truly didn't have thebudget to do that.
So that was like a very bigthing in the beginning that I
think about now.
That was like good for you forusing trade sources, for doing

(11:25):
all this stuff, but there's justa reasonable budget that a
client needs to have in order toget that service.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
I love that and I actually had the same experience
.
I did not grow up in wealth, wewere a very middle class family
and we didn't have all thethings, but I did love design,
much like you, and I was like Igravitated toward magazines and
home shows and all the thingsand I felt the same way.
I felt that everybody deserves,you know, to have a beautiful
home.
And I still feel that way.

(11:52):
But when did it click for you?
When you were like, oh, now Ineed to sort of differentiate
between what I perceive as aquote, unquote expensive home
and what someone else.
Because you have to removeyourself, right, that variable
has to be removed from it.
Because I always say what Oprahthinks is expensive is not what

(12:13):
I think is expensive.
Right, it's two different, twodifferent animals, right?
So when did you?
Because I have to remove myselffrom it, sometimes, too,
because I can't, yeah, I can't,I can't afford myself if I were
to hire myself.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
I'm sure maybe you the same way yes, I say that all
the time and that's one of mybiggest struggles with this
profession Because I am a verylike I don't care how much money
you have, like personally thatdoesn't impress me, I don't care
about that.
But then in my business I needyou to have a certain level of
wealth and budget to afford mybusiness services.
So I have had a hard time kindof drawing that line because I

(12:46):
hate the feeling of being snootyor like excluding people
because personally I don't careat all.
But I think just over it's notlike a certain moment, but just
over the years of doing projectsand really understanding what
all is involved with design howmuch time goes into it, how many
logistics there are, just theagain like using a receiving
warehouse, how much time goesinto it, how many logistics

(13:06):
there are, just the again likeusing a receiving warehouse, how
much money that costs, and justsort of getting realistic about
this is what it takes andthere's a budget threshold that
you need to have it just kind ofthe more projects I've done,
it's solidified that more andmore.
And again I still struggle LikeI hate to tell people no,
because I never want to come offas I'm better than you.
I'm too good for you.

(13:27):
I hate that.
There's nothing I hate more ina person than that attitude.
So that is like a struggle forme with being in this luxury
industry, because I don't feelthat way personally.
But for business, like it iswhat it is, there's a certain
level we have to meet.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Totally exactly.
It's a luxury industry.
It is what it is and the factthat it is meant for people who
can afford that luxury, thatluxury service, that luxury
field that we are in.
That is just plain and simplewhat it is.
Have you done anything to sortof cater to those people who
maybe want a different part ofyou, or do you only cater to
people who want full service?

(14:01):
I get all of Jamie nuts tobolts.
Start to finish.
What levels of service do youoffer within your firm?

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Just curious what you offer to your clients.
Yeah, so I used to, I thinklike everyone when they started,
did it all.
One random room here, yep, I'lldo it, like just furnishing
here, just renovating myfireplace, okay, I'm in.
And then I think as you growand as your business evolves,
you evolve with the kind ofprojects you take, and right now
we're pretty much just doingfull service jobs.
I do jobs sometimes that arejust construction, like a new
build, maybe without thefurnishing, or like I have a job

(14:34):
right now that's just thefurnishing, because it was a
spec house that they bought.
So I will kind of split it upthat way.
But I think my biggest thing islike I am just a very all or
nothing person, like for betteror worse.
So I don't like the thought andI'm not good at like putting
lipstick on a pig.
If someone's oh, I just want alittle something here and here
and judge in there and a newmirror, I'm like I don't even
know what to do because my mindis snowballing with, yeah, but

(14:56):
then we have to rip down thatwall, we have to do that and I'm
not good at that.
There are plenty of people whocould just swap out some things
and do some finishing touches,and that's not my strong suit.
So I don't take those projectsand same with a consult, like I
tried to do a one hour consulttype of thing and I'm like, but
I'm telling them ideas and allthis stuff and I'm like, okay,
but now I want to go source allof those things we talked about

(15:18):
and I want to do this and I wantto pick your paint.
It's hard to stop it.
I find it hard to draw a linefor myself.
So we're pretty much fullservice.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
It's hard when you're a creative.
A client says, oh, I want youto do this one thing, and then
you're peeking around the cornerand you're saying, but that
kitchen is terrible, Right?
Have you seen your cabinets?
Right?
It's so hard to not point outto them how much work needs to
be done in the adjacent room,right?

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Wow, and that's why it just like snowballs, and I
don't, I just don't.
I just like to have ownershipover the whole thing when you
first started, though takeyourself back.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
As you said you would do smaller things.
Do you recommend for newerdesigners to get their foot in
the door, to get some experience, to maybe do smaller projects,
to sort of get their bearingsand get their experience started
that way?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Perhaps I think you have to If anyone has found a
way not to call me and tell me.
But I think number one againwhen I started and was doing
those smaller projects, I wasblown away by a $15,000 budget
so I wasn't in the mindset to dothe jobs that I'm doing now.
If I had a job that I'm doingnow, I would have peed my pants
or died or something.

(16:24):
I could not have wrapped myhead around that level of budget
and what that requires and Ididn't have the experience.
So I think it kind of is anatural progression where it's
not below anyone to do a smallerjob.
It's just that helps you getyour foot in the door, helps get
the ball rolling, you learnsome stuff, you make some
mistakes on a smaller budget alot easier to make some mistakes

(16:47):
on $15,000 and half a milliondollars and you're just you're
probably just not ready forthose huge jobs out of the gate,
like I definitely wasn't, andeven yeah, even the mindset like
it wasn't there.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
And I think you start honing your personal skills too
, with with clients and how tospeak with them and basically
answering their questions better, and all the things that you
just get more comfortable aroundpeople and you can anticipate
objections and you can help themovercome issues and all the
things.
So, on that note, when did youstart to realize, okay, all the

(17:21):
things that I didn't learn indesign school, all the things
that they didn't teach me?
Yes, they taught me how tobuild models and they taught me
how to lay out a floor plan andglue stuff on that?
I'd never, ever right, right,right right.
All those things like which aregreat, whatever.
When did you start to say, okay, jamie, I need to now learn all
the other things.

(17:41):
I need to now startself-educating myself in other
ways to learn these other things?
Number one when did you startto do that?
And then, how did you start tofind those outlets to do so?

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I feel like I can kind ofpinpoint it back to August 2022,
when I started getting reallybecause.
So I had two young childrenlike boom boom and they were
home with me like over COVID fora while and they both ended up
being in daycare like August2022.

(18:14):
So prior to that, I was sort ofbeing reactive with my business
.
I was working with a builder,doing a bunch of their custom
homes and drowning in work, buthad never stopped to be
intentional about what kind ofbusiness I wanted to run, how I
wanted my process to really go,all of those things.
And when you're just slammedand kind of treading water
trying to get through the nextjob, through the next job, and

(18:35):
you don't take a step back andhave that okay, how can I be
intentional with what I'm doing?
So that's sort of where I wasat, up until the point in August
2022 2022 when both my kidswent to daycare full time and I
had a minute to step back andsort of work on my business
instead of in my business.
And the first thing that Iinvested in was not even design

(18:57):
related.
It was like an incubatorprogram for service-based
businesses and I think that gotthe ball rolling on number one,
increasing my pricing.
Because these people who werenot even in the design industry
were looking at my pricing goingoh my God, quadruple that
immediately and I thinkdesigners know kind of what

(19:17):
pricing should be.
But like they were the public,which thinks everything is too
expensive, and they were like,oh my God, you're, that's insane
.
No, I got certain things out ofeverything I've invested in,
but that was a huge one whereit's okay.
That got the ball rolling on alot of things, increasing my
pricing, really realizing thevalue that I was bringing to
these projects that I was doing.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
I think that's important too, because you
mentioned that you were takingon, in the beginning, a lot of
projects, a lot of smallerprojects, a lot of every type of
project.
Now, when you start to increaseyour price, you can then be more
selective, not only about thetype of projects that you have,
but the number of projects thatyou take on, because you can
charge more for those projectsand then you can take on less

(19:59):
projects, be less stressed,hopefully, and then have better
quality projects.
But I think it's so interestingthat you say people from the
outside were telling you thatyou were charging too little for
that, because it's one thingfor, as you say, for the design
community to say you're chargingtoo little, but for the outside
world to say that.
Did you do a lot of comparisonsin the design community?
Did you reach out to otherdesigners to say, hey, what do

(20:22):
you feel about this?
Or did you compare your ratesto other people?
Because that's like a doubleedged sword sometimes when we
compare ourselves to otherdesigners, because not every
designer is doing it the quoteright way and not every designer
understands how to do it either.
So I didn't know.
Did you do a lot of comparisonsin that aspect?

Speaker 2 (20:38):
So not in the beginning.
I really only this is it's.
It's crazy to me that this isonly about two years ago,
because I feel like it's just adifferent world right now.
But at that time I didn'treally have other designer
friends.
I didn't have the designcommunity that I have now.
I knew one designer who was kindof like a friend of a friend
and I remember around that sametime like calling her, sort of

(21:00):
laying this stuff out for her,and she was like Jamie, you need
to increase that for sure.
And she is like Jamie, you needto increase that for sure.
And she is local too.
So same market, say whatever.
She knew my level of experienceand whatever.
And so that was sort of myfirst reach out about that.
And I agree it is a double-edgedsword, because what someone
else is charging really doesn'thave anything to do with you,

(21:22):
because it depends on what doyou want to make, how many
projects do you want to do,what's your overhead?
What's your overhead, what'syour level of deliverables?
There are so many differentthings.
But I think, too, it is nice toknow what is maybe normal, what
is a reasonable range thatother people do charge.
If I think it's 20 and I hearit's actually 170,.
You're like, oh shit, maybe Ineed to like think about that a

(21:43):
little bit.
And again, coming out of a moretraditional career where you're
getting paid a salary that'snot huge, and then moving to
working for yourself, you'rethinking like, oh, $75 an hour,
that's a lot of money.
That's like triple what I wasmaking, that's so much money.
And then you're like, but wait,I also have to pay insurance
and like for my software and forall this other stuff that you

(22:05):
don't really think about.
And then you start seeing thatand you're like, oh, I need to
increase actually what I'mcharging.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Those are all such good points Because, as you say,
just the math on the paperseems great compared to what you
were making as a quote employeefor someone else.
But then when you start to addup all the overhead that it
takes to just open the door inthe morning and run your
business as a business owner,it's, oh my god, like it is so
much work.
And then when you add in anoffice and you start to add

(22:32):
staff and it's just, oh mygoodness, it really does add up.
And then someone questions yourrates and you're like, yeah, it
literally is that price andthat is the price.
Yeah, you're doing what youwant from me.
I yeah.
But what that speaks to to meis that I love that you actually
stopped to investigate that andthat you actually looked into

(22:53):
that, versus just accepting whatit should be quote versus what
someone told you it should be.
You actually took the time tolook into it, you took the time
to investigate it, you took thetime to say, OK, what is right
for me?
But what I hate about it is thatour design community and that
our school systems and all theeducational programs that are
out there don't actuallyfacilitate us in understanding
this, because I was the same wayI started out and I was like

(23:15):
charging 50 bucks an hour and Iwas doing like labor, for I was
hanging wallpaper and I wasputting tile down.
So that's, that's what I thoughtyou were supposed to do.
I didn't know any better as ayoung designer.
And I was like and then one daymy client was like are you sure
you're supposed to do?
I didn't know any better as ayoung designer and I was like
and then one day my client waslike are you sure you're
supposed to be doing this?
And I was like yeah, yeah, thisis what they all do.
And then I was like no, thisisn't what I'm supposed to do
when I started talking to otherdesigners.

(23:36):
But yes to your point, you haveto value what you're bringing
to the table and really I thinkit's just as simple as sitting
down and listing all of thedeliverables that you bring.
Do you agree?

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah for sure, and thinking about again, like all
your expenses to just be inbusiness and what you'd like to
bring home and put in yourpocket and I know a lot of
designers aren't payingthemselves.
You need to pay yourself too.
That's important.
If this is a business and not ahobby, you need to make money
from it.
I think a lot of people feelbad about making money, which is
just a whole other conversation.

(24:08):
But just sit down and, yeah,really list those things out and
you'll just start to see, ohyeah, this does cost me this
much to be open, even, and Ineed to charge accordingly.
Another thing, though, withcharging too, is like not
comparing to someone else.
I think most people, oh, justraise your rate or double your
rate, whatever it's like.
Your confidence also has to bethere, because this is what I

(24:30):
can sell myself at right now.
This is what I can look someonein the eye and say and feel
good about Quadruple that Iprobably couldn't right now
because I'm not there.
So I think that's another thingwhere people make it seem so
easy Just raise your prices.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
You have to be able to confidently sell that price
as well and believe the value ofthat.
And I think you get there kindof incrementally.
I could not agree more.
There are so many gurus andcoaches and whomever out there
who just say double your rates,triple your rates, quadruple
your rates, like you say.
And it's not as simple as that.
If you don't have the chops tobring to the table to deliver a
great design plan, or you don'thave the backup power to bring
what you're going to charge forthat, then you can't simply
charge those rates.

(25:12):
You can charge more perhapsthan what you're charging now,
but you can't just double yourrates without bringing the
deliverables to the client andgiving them what they're paying
for.
No one's going to pay you forjust doubling your rates without
bringing them something thatthey're paying for.
There's no one in their rightmind going to pay you for that
right.
You have to do that and I thinkyou have to work to get there.

(25:33):
It doesn't happen overnight, itdoesn't happen instantaneously,
it doesn't happen when yougraduate school right away.
It doesn't happen when you justhang your shingle out and start
right away.
You have to get there and youhave to build that confidence
for you.
How did you build yourconfidence?
How did you decide that youwanted to number one, get to the
point of raising your rates andgrowing that way?
But what helped you build thatconfidence?

(25:54):
Was it more projects?
Was it education?
What was the thing that spurredthis confidence growth in you?
Because I met you online yearsago.
That's how we met, as mostpeople people do.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
We're like best friends, I meet on the internet,
on Instagram, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, which is weird because we actually lived in the
same city for so long and thenwe actually met in person last
fall Last fall, the first timewe met in person, which is again
so strange.
But I've seen a change in you,I've seen a confidence growth in
you, even since meeting online.
But what do you think has hashelped you to get there?

Speaker 2 (26:27):
I think it's a lot of things and, just like
everything, it's not one magicbullet.
I think people are looking forthat in for everything, and it's
a lot of little things.
It's a lot of seed planting.
That's what I'm always thinkingabout with everything, with my
marketing, with confidence, withwhatever.
I'm just constantly likethrowing seeds out there,

(26:52):
planting seeds, planting seeds.
I might not see it tomorrow,but it's out there, germinating
or whatever seeds do so.
But I think a big one iseducation and investing in your
business.
So education in terms of inyour craft, so knowing what
you're talking about and feelingconfident in what you're
telling clients about thingswhen it actually comes to design
.
And then, on the other side,like feeling confident in your

(27:13):
business side of things byinvesting and having a solid
process that you can lean on.
And I think that that makes youfeel confident if you have a
clear and repeatable process,because you're not like
scrambling every time what am Isaying to them this time?
Or what am I doing or soundingunsure, because you're sure you
know what you're doing.

(27:33):
You do the same thing everytime and the more you have said
that to someone, the easier itgets to say it again.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
And I think people just want to work with confident
people, right?
People love it when you'reconfident.
You come to a client and youare confident in your pricing,
in your design skills, in yourteam, in the people that you
work with in your process.
You don't waver in that and aclient can pick up on that
confidence level and they wantto be surrounded by you and your

(28:02):
team and that confidence and itmakes them feel better knowing
that they're going to give youhundreds of thousands of dollars
and that you're going to takecare of that, because, let's be
honest, as you said, this is aluxury service.
They're going to give you allthis money that they are going
to trust you with.
And part of that confidence, Ithink, kind of transfers over
into trust.

(28:22):
Let's kind of pivot into thatnow because I think that
confidence does turn into trust.
Let's kind of pivot into thatnow because I think that
confidence does turn into trust.
How do you build that trustwith a client?
Because trust is something thatis not really discussed a lot
in our industry.
I feel it starts with thatfirst phone call personally.
But how do you start to buildtrust with a client and what
does that process look like foryou in sort of gaining their
trust and letting them learn totrust you and your team.

(28:43):
In sort of gaining their trustand letting them learn to trust
you and your team.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, I agree, and I think, like you were saying,
confidence is so key in theclient starting to trust you,
because they're literally likein our business.
I feel like it's pretty rarethey're paying you for your
opinion.
So much of it.
That's what they're paying youfor.
So if you don't have an opinionor you're like wavering,
whatever, what are they payingyou for?

(29:07):
Design is so subjective to thatthey want to know what you
think they need to do.
They don't know.
That's why they're hiring youand I think it's easier to sell
your design when you'reconfident in it.
You're confident in what youropinion is and why, and a lot of
that, too kind of goes back tothe education.
Because you can confidentlysell someone with kids a sofa

(29:27):
that has performance fabric onit, because you know those
things, you've educated yourselfon the material, on why this is
going to hold up for theirfamily, and then you can go sell
that with confidence becauseyou know the fact.
Versus you know you're okay,this is the sofa you should have
.
If they give any pushback andyou're like, oh yeah, I don't
know why it's good, waveringagain, then they're going to

(29:48):
start questioning well, whatdoes she know about what she's
selling us and should we usethat and maybe we should look
for something different.
I just think like you have tocome out strong and that builds
that trust, and I think so.
I have two toddlers.
I think about this so much,like toddlers and clients, very
similar in the way you can notwaver or show fear for a second,

(30:09):
because if some toddler asks meif we can have waffles and I'm
like if you hesitate, then theyjump all over that and then
they're like beating you downfor waffles.
It's the same with clients.
You just have to have youropinion, have your stance, which
is hopefully backed up by somesolid facts about the fabric,
about the construction, aboutwhat they told you they wanted

(30:30):
in the first place, why youpicked this.
You probably have an intentbehind it.
I hope so.
Just have those things and thathelps you be confident in what
you're selling them.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
What I'm hearing you say is what builds confidence is
also being decisive in youranswer right.
So clients don't want thatwishy-washiness of someone
saying, well, what do you think?
And they're not hiring you tosay what do you think Right.
They don't want that bounceback to them.
They want you to be decisive inyour answer.
And I think you're right,you're 100% right.
They want someone to tell themyes, this is what you should do,

(31:03):
that's what they're paying youfor.
What do you think builds thatdecisiveness?
Is it continuing education,also with the products?
And if so, how do you continuethat?
Because I don't think you canever rest on your laurels and
understanding.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Product knowledge, your design knowledge, all of
these things, and I think alsojust sort of getting reps in of
design, even if you don't have abunch of projects right now.

(31:37):
Design a fake project or do arender, do something to just
keep building that muscle andlearn what is your style, what
is your point of view on design,like, why do you think these
things go together?
I feel like that has helped mea lot.
Again, I had a time where I wasdoing like volume of projects,
which I'm not doing now, but Ifeel like that really helped me

(31:58):
to come up with my point of view.
Okay, I've blown through allthese things.
What do I really resonate withfrom those different design
styles?
Because you're changing, youevolve.
But I think, after doing so manyreps of design projects, I feel
pretty confident in like wheremy aesthetic is and what my
design style is.
And it's hard to get there ifyou're only doing a few projects
here and there.

(32:19):
Especially when you're starting.
You're not necessarily doingprojects that are your ideal
project or your ideal aesthetic.
So just make up your own, evenif it's a room.
Stick together a mood board outof the bedroom or your own.
Up your own, even if it's aroom.
Stick together a mood board outof the bedroom or your own
house or whatever.
I think it's important to getthe reps in to hone your design
style and feel confident in it.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
That is great advice.
My pet peeve is when someonesays I don't have any clients, I
can't work on a project.
You can work on a project,honey, anytime you want.
You can literally, as you say,jamie, make up a project.
You can design an entire 10,000square foot house right now.
There is nothing holding youback.
You can go to a design centerright now and choose every

(32:59):
single thing for a project andhone those skills, and that will
help you to become a betterdesigner.
It will help you to figure outyour design aesthetic and your
design style and what your nicheis and all the things right.
That is such great advice forpeople who are struggling or who
are new or who are trying tofigure out what their design
style is.

(33:20):
How soon did you start to movedown the pathway of figuring out
your design style, what yourniche was for design, and then
afterwards, when did you figureout who your ideal client was or
who your best client was?
Because I know that's somethingthat people struggle with as
well.
A lot of people say I like todesign for everything and

(33:40):
everyone, and I just feel likethat is such a cop out.
I don't think that you can everdesign for everything and every
style, nor should you everdesign and could you design for
everybody and everyone.
So when did you start to figureout and hone in on those two
aspects of your business andyour design style and person.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
So I feel like a lot of it also goes back to the
August 2022 timeframe, becausethat was a magical year.
Yeah, a lot happened, businesswise and just transforming.
Like and the big thing is that Iwent from being reactive to
being proactive with my businessand that's huge.
And just actually beingintentional and thinking about
these things, who is my idealclient?

(34:19):
What style do I want to doideally?
Because up until that point Ihad done a bunch of custom home
projects all over the board,like one was farmhouse, one was
more traditional One I meanwe're talking like over 20
custom homes and spray the boardof styles.
So I feel like I had a taste ofa lot of things and I realized

(34:40):
by that point okay, this is whatI gravitate toward.
I don't want to do the farmhouse, I don't do super traditional
Like.
I definitely gravitate towardmodern styles, but I always say
like warm modern, not like evil,villain lair, like sterile
modern.
I feel like people hear modernand think God knows what.
So but yeah, doing all thoseprojects in a huge variety of

(35:02):
styles, sure, I can designanything kind of, but I don't
want to and I'm not best servingmyself or that client, because
there's a designer out there whodesperately wants to do super
traditional stuff and is goingto be way better at it and they
have the vendors that supportthat, they have the trades that
support that.
All of that stuff.
I don't.
I don't know who I'd go to forsome super scrolly, ornate thing

(35:24):
, because that's not my style.
So I feel like you're bringinga better level of service to the
client too.
And again I feel like you think, oh, an aesthetic like then
they all your projects look thesame.
It's no, it doesn't have to alllook the same, but to have sort
of like a lane that you're inis helpful, and then you have
vendors that support that lane,trades that support that lane,

(35:45):
and the client is getting whatthey really want from you, not
just, oh, I guess I'll do thisand it's not your best work.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
And they could have had someone that was really
excited about that project.
Well, I think you work moreexpeditiously when you have a
lane, you know which vendors togo to, as you said, and you know
how to design a certain way.
I think it's up to you, as adesigner, to make it interesting
and to make it different, asyou said, from project to
project Right.
As a designer, to make itinteresting and to make it

(36:15):
different, as you said, fromproject to project right.
But you touched on somethingthere that I think is really,
really important, which isvendors and sort of that volume
buying power.
When you are scatteringyourself so thin and you're
designing French country andyou're designing contemporary
and then you're designing modernor whatever, you are literally
scattering your resources sothin that you're never going to
get buying power with yourvendors.
Right, when you're going tomarket, your vendor's going to

(36:35):
be like who the heck are you?
You spent $500 with me last year, right?
Can you speak to that?
How do you nurture thatrelationship with vendors?
Because I think that'ssomething that I was blown away.
I'll just tell you this quickstory.
I was blown away At lastHighpoint Market.
I talked to some people whowere at market for the first
time because they had only beenpurchasing from retail sources.
And I was like, oh my goodness,you don't understand what you

(36:59):
are missing by the buying powerof purchasing from vendors and
getting that trade pricing andall the benefits that come with
that.
Can you just speak to that andhow that's helped you and your
company?

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, I think it's huge.
And again, something and I'mtrying to think why did I even
know to have trade vendors fromthe get go?
I'm not I can't remember why.
I knew that because they don'ttalk about that in school, but I
did.
But I know a lot of peopledon't know that and they're just
buying from Petter Barn andgetting the 20% discount and
whatever.
But furniture is a hugemoneymaker for design businesses

(37:31):
.
If you're buying correctly, so20% off and then don't even get
me started with people givingtheir discount.
But that's not enough tosustain all the work that goes
into furniture procurement andthe delivery and the
installation.
And again, I feel like that'ssomething that comes with once
you do it.
A couple of times sort of likeI did, even though I was using

(37:52):
trade sources I couldn't evenwrap my head around all that was
involved with doing furniturelike with a receiver, with trade
sources.
It's a lot.
So I think your margins need tobe high in order to provide that
service and also be able toprovide good customer service on
that service where I'm okayeating a couple things if I need

(38:13):
to and I'm not like, oh, thisis putting me out of business
now If I have a broken chairthat the vendor won't reconcile
or whatever.
You be a really luxury serviceand give that level of customer
service, you need to have goodmargin, and the way you do that
is by having buying power withdifferent vendors.
And I will say that there aresome vendors that I do a buying

(38:34):
group to purchase from, so Idon't go directly to them and
sometimes my pricing is better.
But if your volume's not superhigh, you might even get better
pricing with a buying group or aDaniel Haas club or something
like that.
So I use a variety of things,but you need to have a good 40,
50, 60% off retail margin to bemaking money.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, and I think the important part of that is that
you're bringing something to theclient other than what they
know.
They don't know about most ofthe vendors that we go to market
and the products that we see atmarket and all the beautiful
products that we see and can sitand touch and turn the lamps on
, and sit in the swivel chairand touch the finish of the
light fixture.
They don't get to do thatbecause all they're seeing and

(39:14):
all that they know which nofault of their own, that's just
the way that consumers are ledto believe is that that's all
that there is, but they don'tknow about all the other
beautiful vendors that are outthere.
That's part of our job asdesigners is to bring to them
and say, oh my gosh, look, hereis visual comfort, here is
forehands, here is Vanguard,here is Palachuk, here are all

(39:34):
these great vendors that you'veprobably perhaps never heard of.
And here are the reasons why welike to work with them.
Because of X, y and Z, right,and that is just another reason
of working with a designer,right?
And I think that's justsomething that we also bring as
a luxury service, as you say.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, it's another value add.
You're getting access to stuffthat you might not have access
to or even if you potentiallycould access it, like you don't
know it exists, so you don'tknow to access it.
So that is a value add.
And the retail thing like I wastalking about this on Instagram
stories the other day, but I'mordering this one piece retail
for this one client who justinsisted on having it.

(40:10):
They have it in their currenthouse and it's been a freaking
nightmare and I still haven'tactually ordered the thing.
It's been weeks because no onewill.
It's like the runaround no onewill get back to me.
Call this person, email thisperson, like it's a nightmare.
And then I'm like great, Ican't wait until I get this
thing ordered.
It comes in damaged and thenI'm spending two more months
trying to hunt them down forthat.

(40:31):
Right now I'm hunting them downto pay them money and I can't
even do that.
So God forbid when I need themto help me.
So it's just a nightmare and Itry not to order retail again.
This is sort of a specialone-off thing, but there's a lot
of reasons why trade sourcesare preferable.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
I mean, there are some things where I'm like okay
that trade sources arepreferable.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
I mean, there are some things where I'm like, okay
, that's a beautiful mirror.
Cb2, I see you, I got you.
That's, that's pretty.
It's not cb2, by the way, butyeah, cb2 is probably my
favorite retail.
I'm like don't, don't you seeme?

Speaker 1 (41:01):
in my own house.
I will me too.
Some of their stuff is pretty.
I'm like it's so pretty, damnyou.
But other than that, I don'treally like gravitate toward a
lot of retail things but.
But sometimes I'm like that isso nice and the price is good
and they yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,but it is what it is.
Let's talk about working withother designers and what we can
learn from other designers andsort of that camaraderie.
I see it.

(41:22):
I keep going back to marketbecause I feel like market is
like the ultimate camaraderie.
Right, we're having cocktails,we're having dinners, all the
things.
But do you feel like theindustry is a sharing industry
these days and that everybody issharing?
And if so, how do you share?
What have you learned fromother designers?
How do you feel thatcamaraderie is going in our
industry?

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah, great question.
So I feel like it's definitelytrending that way now, which
makes me happy.
I think it didn't used to beand even again, maybe I just
wasn't clued in when I wasstarting, but I feel like even
from six years ago, thelandscape seems very different,
where now there are plenty ofpodcasts your podcast like

(42:02):
there's a bunch of designpodcasts where people are just
sharing stuff.
There's books that people havewritten, including you, which,
by the way, your book is rightthere.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
I'm getting staged.
It's always there, I swear.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
But yeah, I feel like people are sharing and that's
becoming more of a thing and Ilove that because it just helps
the whole industry.
Like the more knowledge thatcan be out there, the more
people can share their ownexperiences, missteps, that
they've made, good things thatthey've done, what's worked for
them, what hasn't.
It just helps everyone sort ofelevate the industry, and I

(42:39):
think our industry has troublewith garnering respect.
Sometimes People think, oh, Icould do that, or it's a hobby
or whatever, and then maybenewer designers or people that
just aren't as educated in theindustry and the true ins and
outs and what it takes are thenfeeding into that.
So I think the more that we caneducate people across the board
because it's not necessarilylike clients aren't listening to

(43:01):
this, but if another designerhears this and is inspired to
raise their prices or dowholesale and not pass on their
discount, like that helpseveryone.
When less clients are hearinglike, oh, but this person gave
me their discount, that's betterfor all of us.
So I do feel like it's movingthat direction, which is really
nice.
I have learned a lot from otherdesigners, like I have done

(43:24):
multiple courses from otherpeople.
I listen to your podcast,leanne's podcast.
I have a pretty robust designcommunity at this point, which I
told you just two years ago Ireally didn't, which seems crazy
, but I went to design camp inSeptember 2022.
So right after August, did thatin September and that was a
huge game changer in terms ofmeeting people.

(43:47):
That's where I met Nicole.
I know that, our mutual friendNicole, Luann Live.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
You and I were at Luann Live.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Luann Live.
So I've done various in-personand just market and stuff.
I love going to market even ifI don't have a reason to per se
because I just have FOMO if I'mnot there and it's like I've met
my internet internet friendsthere and it's just so exciting
and sort of gets me jazzed aboutthe industry and my business

(44:14):
again.
But yeah, I think the designcommunity is huge and there's
definitely there's people thataren't about it and that still
want to be secretive andwhatever, and that's fine, but
those are not my people.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
I feel you.
I think that it's just allabout being open and honest and
I hate when people aren't and Ihate when people.
I said this I did a live withRobin Barron the other day and I
meant this, but I hated that, Ihad to say it.
But I feel that in our industry, during COVID and during the
pandemic, everyone was being soauthentic and honest and just

(44:47):
like really raw with theirfeelings.
And now I see it sadly.
I see some people trending backtowards like the prestige and
the she, she, she and I'm afancy designer and all these
things, and I'm like can youjust please go back to you know,
just just be people.
We know, we know deep down thatwe're all just trying our best

(45:07):
to work hard and be successfuland to work as a great design
team for our clients and all thethings.
So we don't need anything else.
We don't need you to pretend tobe anything else or to try to
be anything else.
Just be yourself.
We know exactly who you are.
But unfortunately, I see peopletrending back and I was afraid
they would get back to thatpoint.
But I do still see a lot ofpeople like yourself and other
people sharing and I always wantus to be that way.

(45:29):
I always want us to be acommunity of just openly,
honestly sharing and not hidinginformation, being clear and
transparent.
I'm that way with clients.
I'm that way, sadly, probablyoversharing on the podcast
sometimes, but it is what it is.
You get what you get and I justI feel like that helps us all
grow and that helps us allbecome better, stronger human

(45:51):
beings and better, strongerdesigners.
And earlier, when you said thateveryone wants to sort of
pretend that they can do what wedo from a 60 second TikTok reel
.
Sometimes you can't learn howto be a designer in 60 seconds
from a reel on Instagram or onTikTok.
Unfortunately, it takes a lotof time to learn to do that.
It's not an overnight processand I can tell apparently,

(46:13):
september 2022, really a big,big time for you.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Big year, yeah, and it goes back to, I think,
circling it back to confidence.
What are you so afraid of ifyou're being secretive and you
don't want to share?
Do you think someone's going tosteal your business?
There's no way that someone cansteal my business, even if you
have my exact documents, myexact everything, because you're
not me and I just believe thatso strongly.

(46:37):
That design is such a personalthing.
Like you're in people'sbedrooms, you're in people's
bank accounts, your personalityis a huge part of it your
aesthetic, your pricing, yourprocess, your personality a
million factors where, ifsomeone is my perfect design
client, they're not yours andvice versa.
What are you trying to like?
Have all my stuff, take all mysecrets, I don't care.

(46:57):
Like you can't do what I do andI can't do what you do.
Like we're different people.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
There's plenty to go around, I promise you.
There's plenty of clients,there's plenty of people
interested, and your best clientis not my best client, and vice
versa, and I think that thatabundance mindset that you have
is so refreshing.
I wish more people would haveit.
Instead of working from oh, Idon't want you to take this
client from me, or I don't wantyou to take this bit of
knowledge from me.

(47:22):
No, no, no.
Share that knowledge because itwill come back to you.
I've seen it happen so manytimes.
It will come back to you 10fold more than you ever ever
realize.
So this has been so great, sohelpful for people.
I know they found so manynuggets of information in this
conversation.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom, sharing your knowledge,

(47:43):
sharing your history, sharingyour past, your lessons.
Tell people where they can findyou online and all those places
where they can find Jamie onsocial media and on the website.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Pretty easy Instagram at Studio Gaspo or my website
wwwstudiogaspocom.
It's pretty much where I hangout and I'm always happy to
again answer DM.
Or we say I don't knoweverything but I'm happy to tell
you anything.
I know, anything I'veexperienced.
Help you avoid a misstep orwhat have you.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Well, that is evident in the conversation today and I
will put all of those links, ofcourse, in the show notes so
you can click on those.
Go find Jamie.
I love your stories.
By the way, you are very openon your stories and the designs
that you are doing.
Lately I saw a fireplacerecently, gorgeous by the way,
were doing.
Lately I saw a fireplacerecently, gorgeous by the way
Just so beautiful.
So just keep on keeping on it'sbeautiful work and thank you

(48:32):
for sharing everything today onthe podcast.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the
Designer Within Podcast.
It means the world to me.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto the topics that we've
discussed here, be sure to checkout my online coaching and
courses program,designsuccessacademycom.
Here I will teach youeverything you need to know to

(48:57):
run your interior designbusiness, from starting the
project all the way to the end,including marketing and pricing
your services for profit.
And for more information onthis podcast, including how to
be a guest or my design servicesin general, go to JohnMcClain.
Go to johnmcclainco.
That's johnmcclainco.
See you soon, friend.
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