BOOK: TOS - Chapter 4: The Gospels of Luke & John - The Devil You Don't Know

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Early (00:10):
I don't remember a single Jewish person growing up
in Boise, Idaho in the eightiesand nineties.
In junior high or high school, Idefinitely remember reading
Chaim Potok book, The Chosen.
But that's as close as I got toJewishness apart from what was
in the Bible.
Similarly, I never knew anyneo-Nazis, which may be more

(00:33):
surprising.
Idaho has a bit of a reputationfor neo-Nazis.
But they typically lived farthernorth and the whole concept just
sounded like a group of movievillains.
It didn't seem real.
But I did grow up with membersof the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints.
AKA LDS or Mormons.

(00:53):
LDS listeners, I apologize forwhat I'm about to explain.
It is the perception I remembergrowing up, which of course
later with much more context andempathy, I would find absolutely
preposterous, but here it goesanyway.
A lot of my friends were LDS.
And so it was my first seriousgirlfriend ever.

(01:15):
My family wasn't Mormon.
We were more"casuallyChristian," but"the Mormons", as
those of us who were not LDScalled them, were viewed with
suspicion.
A lot of people who weren't LDSconsidered the Mormon faith a
cult, brainwashing, andprimarily concerned with turning
women into baby factories.

(01:36):
The LDS church held secretweddings in their mysterious
Temple to those who were worthy.
No outsiders allowed.
And when the LDS missionariescame to our door.
We shut the curtains and hit onthe floor as if we were under
attack.
We Othered our LDS neighbors,distrusted anyone in authority

(01:59):
who was LDS because we casuallythought that there was some
secret Mormon agenda and theywere trying to take over
everything.
We.
They.
We felt threatened by them.
And I know the feeling wasmutual.
This is the closest thing I haveto understanding the threats the

(02:20):
gospel writers and Luke and Johnwere facing and writing about.
In today's episode, I hopeyou'll find a greater context
than just the us versus them.
The Devil quite literally is inthe details.
This is the Devil You Don'tKnow.

(02:55):
Satan Satan.

Emily Quann (02:58):
When are you going to interview my friend, Matt
from Useful Charts?
Did that ever get solidified?

Don Early (03:04):
No, I

I thought you said you wanted to, and you were
working on that.
Oh, okay.

Don Early (03:11):
I don't know.
I haven't figured out how tocontact him.
I did contact Religion forBreakfast and I joined his
Patrion and contacted himdirectly.
And he's he's in, we justhaven't

Oh, okay.
I thought I got those tworeversed.
I thought you wanted to getHenry still, but had gotten
Matt, so, okay.

Don Early (03:34):
Yeah, but I would love to get Matt as well because
he's amazing.
I had so many YouTube links onthis last episode.
All right, well, Chapter Four,you guys, we're getting a
twofer.
This is Luke and John.

Yes,

Don Early (03:54):
And you know, frankly, um, I think, I think
I'm ready just to put themtogether into one episode.
I mean, I'm kind of getting realtired of gospels right now.
I don't know about you.

No, I'm over them.

Don Early (04:08):
It's, it's the same damn story, but different

With a few different words here and there.

Don Early (04:14):
Yeah.
And, uh, in this one, you know,it's Luke and John Inherit

Israel's Legacy (04:21):
The Split Widens.
And what's going on there?
I my thought was, or my takeawaywas the farther you get away
from the event of the actualexecution crucifixion.
Um,

The more anti-Semitic it becomes.

Don Early (04:42):
The more divided yeah.
It gets, um, the more anti-Jew.

Jeremy Spray (04:46):
The more sympathetic to the Romans.

Don Early (04:49):
Yeah.
So, I mean, with Luke, so Ithink like they do in the
chapter.
We'll talk about Luke first andthen we'll switch over and hit
John, um, in the face.
Uh,

How's your God?

Don Early (05:06):
the God of light and life, whatever.
We'll get to that in a second.
So Luke Luke is the onlynon-Jewish author in the entire
New Testament, apparently,

It's really interesting.

Don Early (05:18):
Certainly the only Gentile gospel writer.
But so she, she, Elaine Pagels,uh, describes that Luke speaks
for Gentile converts whoconsider themselves the"heirs of
Israel." And I was, I saw a fewposts on Facebook recently about

(05:39):
these Christians who almost wordfor word said that, you know,
that were the true Israelites orwhatever.
Ouch.

Oh, we know what you're searching on Facebook.
If you're seeing lots of those.
Don Early likes this.

Don Early (05:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm probably my, my algorithmsall screwed up these days.

Sounds it.
it

Don Early (06:04):
Yeah.
So, um, I mean, I've got notesand stuff from the, from the
chapter, but, initial thoughts,like what you think?

It was brought back around in the last part of
the chapter.
And I thought it was a realinteresting kind of comparison.
So since we're starting at Luke,I'll just bring up the pieces.
When Luke was being written,there was this really clear kind
of understanding, and that thisis not going to be a religion or
a following that is made up ofJews.

(06:35):
And so the message had changedthough, the ways the stories had
been given had changed, thecontexts of the stories had been
changed because"the othernations," which is I still, I
just find that to befascinating, that Gentiles
literally just means everythingthat's not a Jew.
But the Gentiles, which are nowbeing a follower of this and,
and trying to follow thisteachings of Jesus, you know, as

(06:59):
this person now have to be...
context, has to be added.
There had to be things that weregiven in a common term rather
than the straight lines

Don Early (07:10):
Yeah.
Cause because the, the audiencehad changed.

The audience has changed.
Right.
And so their history and theirunderstanding, I just found to
be really an interesting takebecause I, I didn't know this
before.
Right.
When I was taught it, it wasjust, all of everything is true.
It's all true.

Oh, yeah, exactly.
Same here.

Everything is completely true.
And it's like, well, what aboutthis part?
I'm like, well, it's all true.
Still.
It's just different opinions.
Right?
So to, to recognize that hisstories changed in the way that
they were delivered, because theaudience that they were being
given to had changed.

Don Early (07:44):
Yeah.

really interesting and made sense.

When you were in church and it was like the
festivities of, well, I mean allof holy week.
Right.
But do you, do you remembergoing to church and then acting
out the passion or like readingit, having assigned

Don Early (08:07):
13 stations of the cross.

lines and stuff and yeah.

What?
No.
I was actual plays.
I was, I was acting them out.
You, you guys had, like what,what was the 13 stations of the
cross?
What was that?

Don Early (08:19):
Well, that's stolen from the Catholic Church.
But on good Friday, oftentimes Idon't know if that's what you're
referring

yeah, yeah.

Don Early (08:27):
Yeah.
So on good Friday, uh, the, uh,the Protestant denominations
that have Catholic roots, youknow, the, the liturgical
Protestant

Yep.
Martin Luther, like loved theceremony and the tradition of
the Catholic church.
He just didn't like the belief.
So, oh, for Lutherans, a lot ofthe ceremony,

Don Early (08:54):
a lot of the liturgy

the liturgy, exactly, is the same.

Don Early (08:58):
Yeah.
So the 13 stations of the crossare these 13 events that,
there's like a.
I don't know an image or apainting or stained glass or
something representing thatparticular station of the cross.
And it's the progression throughthe passion narrative.

(09:18):
And it just split up into 13different events or, or what, I
don't remember what they are.
It's been,

So, so we read out like lines like there.
Yeah.
And so during service you're, ifyou were assigned a part, you
would stand up and read yourpart.
Um, but doing a, a closeinspection of the gospels, like
we have been doing in thesechapters here, reading that, I

(09:46):
would recognize immediatelybecause we did this year after
year after year.
And it just became like aningrained in your head, what
these verses are

Don Early (09:54):
Mm.

What we were reading, and I don't know if
this was your church also, butthey had the certain lines from
different gospels.
They didn't just do it from onespecific gospel.
And I was just wondering howthey went and picked and
choosed.
"Ooh, we like, we like this onefrom Matthew we're gonna put

(10:15):
this in, we liked this one fromLuke.
We're going to put that line in"and stuff.
And so w when I was reading allof these and just seeing the
different wording that was used,especially, you know,"crucify
him, crucify him" or the peoplewho demanded that, uh, Jesus be

(10:35):
crucified, and here's a Pilatelooking innocent in one, and
looking guilty in another, youknow?
Yeah.
And just it blows my mindbecause when I was a kid, I
didn't think anything of it.
Um, I thought, oh, we're readingthis.
This is a gospel that we'rereading and stuff.
And now I can recognize, oh,they like chose different lines

(10:57):
from the different gospels toput this all together.
And, um,

Don Early (11:02):
Yeah.
To tell this story,

And so it's, uh, it's such a different take
depending on who you're reading,which might be why they put it
all together in one.
Um, but yeah, and as someone wholoves history, I want to know
what actually happened.
I don't, I don't want thesepeople are like, oh, let's tell
the story, but let's, let's,let's make these people, the bad

(11:26):
guys, because we want thesepeople over here to like, come
and join our group.
And, you know, and I like nowI'm kind of pissed.
I, so we, we did the study.
Yeah.
We did the study of all four ofthese gospels and it's.
What the hell, get the storystraight.
I want to know what happened.
I don't want your likemanipulation of events here.

(11:50):
So anyway

Don Early (11:51):
Nope.
I think you're tired.
Your tirade is, is well-receivedbecause I feel

Was that a tirade?
I didn't mean for that to be atirade.
Oh, is it going to have mytirade music?
Are you gonna do that?

Don Early (12:03):
No, no, no.
Cause you're on topic.
So

I'm on topic.
Okay.
That's for once.

Don Early (12:09):
No.
Jeremy, I just want to recognizethat I see all the questions in
your face, so I'm going to getto those.

I I'm blind as a bat so I can see no questions in
your face at all.

Don Early (12:21):
But I think your point is well taken.
I I'm, a hundred percent.
That's exactly where I'm atwith, I mean take the, the
Christmas narrative.
It's, you know, it's going tocome up sooner than Easter now.
So check that out.
When you start, when you startlistening or seeing the
readings.
Um, it does dawdle betweenMatthew and Luke.

(12:43):
Um, and of course, Markcompletely ignores the birth
story because it wasn'timportant to him.

Right.

Don Early (12:50):
but I don't know.
I mean, once again, Matthew wasJewish and was pissed off at the
Jewish leaders and the chiefpriests and scribes, and Luke
was a Gentile and needed tovalidate the same story,

Which I guess is why I had higher expectations
for Luke kind of being more

you were the last one.
You

kind of being more removed or not having a, I don't
know.
Not having his hat in the ring.
I don't know.
Not like not being so close toit?
But no, pissed at him too.

Don Early (13:31):
That's fair.
Jeremy let's circle around toyou.
W

What,

Don Early (13:35):
What's going through your brain?

What did I just bring up for you, Jeremy?

Yeah.
Real interesting.
I mean, you set up one of thefirst kind of real different
ways that we grew up.
When, when we started this, wetalked about how we all grew up
in the church and we all grew upwith, with different things.
But like, this is as I grew up,uh, Protestant light, like four

(14:01):
square Protestant.
And so there was a lot of the"Bible is the truth as it is."
And there is you know, VineyardChurches, and lots of, of, of
big band dancing and, and lotsof removal of anything that
would have been ceremony.
And, uh, my mom grew upCatholic.
And so in her own level of, Istill believe this, but I don't

(14:24):
believe what my parents believein.
And that doesn't make sense.
There was a lot of theanti-mysticism and, uh, in a, in
a whole different set of contextfor that,

Don Early (14:34):
Which is really funny because look what, look what
they developed instead.

Oh my God.
Right.
The whole, whole new level.
Uh, but, but it really had thatjust kind of like, no, we're
following just truth.
We're not following traditionsand, and particular items and an
absence.
Right, right.
Like, you know, communion is adifferent thing.
It's not always given by apriest and in like all of these
different levels.
And so I'm approaching Luke fromthat standpoint, right?

(15:02):
From this level of, this wastaken as truth.
And I'm hearing so much of Johncome back.
And so much of Luke come back inthe different ways the story was
being told and, and the, thecrucifixion and the passion of
the Christ and, and all, allthat different levels.
And hearing it again from thisidea of what the audience is.

(15:23):
Of, of who is supposed to behearing this.
And why is the story being toldthis way and recognizing
repeatedly, because it wasingrained in my head for 20 damn
years of like, this is thetruth.
This is, this was a person whowas there and seeing the other
side of it, I had, I had justdifferent levels of thoughts
going through.
So I still now even hearingwhere you're coming from and the

(15:45):
perspectives that you'rebringing to it.
I hear that there is this levelof that's being put into that of
why there was a constant rerepetition, a constant hearing,
a constant thought of this ishow it is.
This is how these people are andreally setting up the others,
the us and the thems that stillwas kind of derivative of the

(16:09):
Christian movement.

Don Early (16:10):
Absolutely the, uh, again, it says the split widens
here, and I think this isdefinitely we're talking about,
my notes were that Jesus' Jewishenemies are aligned with the
evil one, the power of darkness.
So it's becoming more and morefor Luke, the followers of

(16:32):
Jesus, be they Gentile or Jew,if there are followers of Jesus,
they are the true Israelites.
They're the only ones left, youknow, that really can claim that
anymore.
And anyone who rejects Jesus asMessiah and, you know, that sort

(16:52):
of thing, is sort of aligningwith the devil.
You know, it's interesting thathe also kind of notes, Luke I'm,
I'm talking about reports thatthere were no animosity on the
part of Herod or the, you know,Jerusalemites or whatnot towards
the infant Jesus in the birthstory, we didn't get that Exodus

(17:13):
kill all the kids thing in Luke,

Also didn't get that, that contrast again.
Right.
That comparison of the, justlike Pharaoh, just like Moses,
right.
That, that was being given tothe, the Jewish context

Don Early (17:27):
Yeah, but we do get this really interesting, thing
with the devil challenging Jesusright after his baptism.
Right?
So the devil challenges, Jesus,three times.
Three times he's defeated.
And then, as Pagels puts it, hedeparts until an opportune time.

(17:51):
And those words, she, I feellike, spells out pretty clearly
or as she kind of lays out anargument that that was such a
very intentional wording that hewent away for an opportune time.
And then she comes back to itwith Judas Iscariot, and, and
brings those words up againuntil there was an opportunity

(18:15):
to betray him until, you know,until the, the opportune time
had come around at thecrucifixion that sort of thing.
So the devil is playing the longgame in Luke, and humanity, is
his pawns.
He's arranging things as we go.

Wasn't one of the temptations or something like,
Hey Jesus, I tempt you to go tothis town where there's a whole
bunch of people who want to killyou,

Don Early (18:43):
No.
Uh, but we're going to get tothat story, I think,

okay.
I was like, that's hardly atemptation.
You got to up your game a littlebit.

Don Early (18:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, uh, she goes into thedifferent temptations.
There's three of them.
And let's see here,

Or one of them was going into town and showing your
powers as, as son of God.

Don Early (19:13):
right?
Wasn't it all in the wilderness,

Oh, I didn't know if there was one where like, go
show your powers to display yourpowers to people, to show them
your son of God in this townwhere everybody wants to kill
you or something like that.
And it's just like, uh, how isthat a temptation?
That's an easy, no, thank you.

Don Early (19:32):
Yeah.

I didn't mark it down, but that was just a
thought I had while I wasreading.

Don Early (19:37):
You know, what, where, what I'm thinking of is
in John, we'll get to that inJohn.

Oh, okay.
I'm just, I didn't mean to jumpahead.
I couldn't remember which onethat was, but I was like, this
is absurd.

Don Early (19:49):
Yeah, but you're not wrong.
Um, you know, so, uh, becausethey all have this story where
Jesus resists the temptationthree times,

My point.
That's not tempting.

Don Early (20:07):
Yeah.
What, what they're tempting himwith, right?
Yeah.

Come on, Devil.
You gotta do better than that.

Don Early (20:13):
So, I'd kind of forgotten this one.
Uh, the Jesus is first publishedor public T uh, teaching.
I dunno, I can't talk tonight.
The

Mercury's in retrograde

Don Early (20:25):
Ah, that's what it was.
Fucking Mercury.

Starting today, through June 3rd, somebody just
sent me that and that's like,oh, that's why I've been
stumbling over my words all daytoday.

Don Early (20:38):
Good of explanation is anything else in my opinion.

I mean, who knows?

Sorry for everyone listening to this podcast.
Mercury's in retrograde.
We're just going to mess upeverything tonight.

Yeah.

Don Early (20:53):
Um, so Jesus is first teaching.
He's going to teach in publicand, you know, he relays that he
starts telling this wonderfulthing, you know, this, this
teaching, and they're all amazedand they can't believe what
they're hearing.
And then he says, but it's alsofor the Gentiles, even if it

(21:16):
replaces you.
And then they try and throw himoff of a cliff.
I didn't remember that lastpart.

So much fury.
Yep.

Don Early (21:28):
Yeah.
Jesus now predicts that histowns people will reject him and
declares that God intends tobring salvation to the Gentiles,
even at the cost of bypassingIsrael.
And then they will, they arepissed off.
And that seems to be the, thereal big thing with Luke.
I think where we get a lot ofour modern concepts of Jesus

(21:53):
being, like his followers are,he like pals around with the
outcasts, right?
With, um, the poor and thedespised, the sick, prostitutes
and the tax collectors and, theSumerians or Samaritans, which I
thought was kind of funny that,uh, later on we learn in this
chapter that the Samaritans werereally referred to as the"not

(22:16):
real Jews,"

Yeah.

The fake Jews

yeah.
The wannabes.

Yeah, it's still, still Jews, right?
Not those Gentiles, but likethey're fake Jews.

Don Early (22:27):
Yeah.
I wonder if that's like JackMormon, do you know that term?

What is this?
An Idaho thing?

Don Early (22:34):
Neither of you know that term?

No,

Don Early (22:36):
Okay.

It's an Idaho thing.

Don Early (22:38):
Must be, an Idaho thing.
I don't know, but no, it's, it'sa Jack Mormon, to the rest of us
non-Mormon people, was somethingthat we, that, uh, we, well, I
guess I did it at some point oranother in life.
We would call people who wereMormon, but not very Mormon.
they, they associated themselvesas being Mormon, but they drank

(23:02):
alcohol.
They, or maybe they didn't go tochurch or, you

I didn't know that there was a term for that.

Was it Jack Mormon because you're just like, oh
yeah, I'm Mormon like last name,like my name is Jack Mormon.

Don Early (23:15):
I literally do not know where that comes from and
it's probably pretty derogatoryand it's probably a word that,
or a term that shouldn't beused, should ask some

Some Mormons that may, we may or may not have
talked to recently.
They might know.

Don Early (23:32):
Yeah.
What's behind that.
That's, it's not a kind thing Ithink.

Well sure.
The, it wouldn't be a kindthing.
Well, it wouldn't be a kindthing to somebody who

Yeah,

here's that communication thing again,

Don Early (23:44):
Yeah, well, like, it's like, what's the Christian
term for that.

To.
Most of us?

Don Early (23:49):
There's not like a Jack Christian,

I

Don Early (23:54):
you know, or a kind of Christian or a, I mean,
there's the, the terms for thosewho think that

every day, every day, Chris Christian, I don't
know.
I like what

Don Early (24:08):
I dunno.
It's not important.

maybe Jack cause it's like, I dunno, got nothing.

Don Early (24:15):
I got nothing either.

Even if I had something, I wouldn't be able to
communicate it to you.

Mercury.

Don Early (24:21):
Retro grade.
Okay.
So we've talked about.
You know Jesus' followers.
So she, she talks about thatthey were very deeply loyal to
the Temple and she illustratesit through Luke that and really
making the point Jesus'followers were real worthy, more

(24:42):
so than say the, the Phariseesor the Jewish leaders or, or
whatnot.
Really trying to build up thiscase that Jesus's followers are
the real God's people orwhatever.
The spiritual warfare betweenGod and Satan now intensifies,
and Jesus, is a divider.

(25:05):
And so he says, it says, Justquoting on page 91 and 92, Jesus
says,"Do not think that I'vecome to bring peace on earth.
No, rather division from now on,in one house, there shall be
five divided, three against two,and two against three.
There will be divided or theywill be divided father against

(25:27):
son and son against father,mother against daughter and
daughter against her mother."But apparently not son against
mother or daughter againstfather.

Hmm,

Didn't use all of the combinations.

These writers are just so lazy.

Don Early (25:43):
Now my gosh.
I mean, if you're going to usenumbers, let's figure this out.
Huh?
Use all the examples.
Anyway.
Point is, I mean, Jesus issaying I'm real controversial.
This is not something that maybeJesus actually said, or if it
is, or that doesn't matter, thisis what Luke says.

(26:03):
Right?
And so there's a, it's justinteresting that he would have
purposefully wrote that forJesus to say.
And maybe it's something that hesaid, he's being this again, I
come back to this notion of, uh,Jesus being a Satan, being, uh,

(26:23):
a diabolos a stumbling block forsomebody else, right.
A divider, uh, you know, it'sinteresting to me that a lot of
the things that, Satanists thatwe have spoken with, how they
champion Lucifer or Satan as theperson who is the liberator,

(26:46):
the, the person who stands upfor those who can't defend
themselves or, these despisedand prostitutes and tax
collectors and the sick and thepoor, you know, it's, it's, it's
kind of interesting parallelsbetween the two.

I, I agree.
No, I think that's that's Imean, you're right on point.
Right?
I don't have anything else thatadd to it, but I'm just kind of
nodding verbally with you.

Don Early (27:12):
Yeah,

Yeah, I think I actually was nodding.
People.
Can't people can't hear menodding.
I was nodding.
I was in agreement.

Don Early (27:21):
So we transitioned over to a question that she kind
of starts to throw out is, didLuke have access to earlier or
more accurate accounts ofJesus's trial and execution than
the previous gospel writers

See and we get into this question about who, who
wrote when and who wasinfluenced by who?
And again, we have no idea.
There's just theories,

Don Early (27:45):
Yeah.
And then, so she lays a lot ofthe, I don't think we need to go
into

right?
No,

Don Early (27:50):
you can.

That previous episode, but that's another
thing that I'm mad that I don'thave answers to.

Don Early (27:57):
Right.
But to that point though, I ammore and more convinced that,
that Luke and John were at leastcontemporary.
I, I, it's hard for me to.
Just given what we've beenlearning and what we've been
reading, it's hard for me toaccept that Matthew and Luke

(28:17):
were contemporaries.
You know, it really does feellike Luke had time, and maybe
was facing different ideas anddefinitely a little bit more of
what John was facing, but from aGentile, like John was, was

(28:38):
dealing with being outcast,we'll get into this.
He was being sort of, uh,ostracized from the Jewish
community for being Christian,you know, cause he was a Jewish
convert to Christianity his, heand his fellow Christians like
Christians were facing that sortof ostracization will.
On the other hand, then you havethe whole Gentile side of the

(29:01):
Jesus following, um, who didn'treally have that to begin with.
Um, and they are facing theirown.
And so it's hard to, I mean,obviously it's hard to nail
down, but it does, it does feelmore closer to John's time
period or, or later as MarcusBorg suggests that Luke might

(29:22):
even be significantly later, youknow, 50 years later, uh, than
John.

That's pretty interesting.

Don Early (29:29):
Yeah, but my, my struggle with that is then why
didn't Luke use any of John?

Right.
But the conversation I think,came up in the book a little bit
in that the focus was sodifferent.
Right, right.
Uh, Luke really had a particularmessage to particular people
where as John's was really allabout the theocratic level of it
really had that the spiritualworld and the spiritual combat.

(29:59):
And it wasn't so much.
You know, finding the divisionor the determining who was the
right one.
It was and we'll get into it, Ithink a little bit later on, but
like really, how do you callpeople out without calling them
out directly and gettingyourself in trouble?
You talk about all of thecreatures inside of them.
And like the demonic possessionwas strong inside John.

(30:21):
You were either the right Jewsor you're demon possessed.
It's just, it was

Don Early (30:26):
Yeah.

There's a whole level.

Don Early (30:28):
Yeah.
Well, it, it d and now thatwe're kind of talking about it,
it does kind of sound to me, itwould make sense that Luke, as a
Gentile follower of Jesus wouldhave been really inspired by
Matthew's gospel and wanted toprovide his version, from, from
his perspective, but follow kindof a similar, vein.

(30:51):
So, I dunno, it's...
I'm with you, Emily, in that,the, the thing that bugs me the
most as we are learning this andreally getting the context of it
is that they don't take the timein church to, paint this picture
of

Not at all.

Don Early (31:10):
Maybe it's because there's not enough people that
are interested in, they don'twant to know this shit, but I
don't understand how you canread this gospel and then still
think it's the same thing inthe, the next gospel.

There's they're so different.
I had no idea they were sodifferent.
There's lots of similar words,but just the nuances on, on some
of them.
And granted, we're talking abouttranslations here too.
Like I at least, I mean, I thinkyou've actually read the text,

(31:47):
right?
Because you, in, in theiroriginal, right.

Don Early (31:51):
Well, I mean,

Well,

Don Early (31:53):
We have the, uh, the Greek New Testament

So yeah, my point is I don't speak Greek,

Don Early (32:00):
right.

Hebrew,

Don Early (32:02):
I don't speak Hebrew.

I don't I I'm relying on English translations
for all of this.
So I, I don't, I gotta trustthat the translators are doing
the right words for the rightthings.
And I know that there's

Don Early (32:18):
It's never perfect.

It's never perfect.
And even now there's controversyabout

Don Early (32:23):
yeah, because again, we brought it up, I think in the
last episode that translation iscommentary.

Exactly.

Don Early (32:32):
And you just can't get around that.
and it's also because you know,the way you think and the way
you think they thought, it, it,it can't translate all the, all
the time.

Right.
But it's, it's just, it's verydifferent.
The more I read and the morethat I got from it and, and
seeing by the time we get toJohn the Jewish people are, are
basically evil.
I mean, is, is

Yeah, against the Christians now.

like, I, just felt nauseous, but reading that and,
and like, I just, I grew uphearing this, had no idea.
But again, I'm also, I'm alsodoing a deep dive into this
stuff right now, and I'm, I'mlooking for this stuff now.
That's the point of this, and soit's really sticking out to me

(33:27):
and I just, I, I really, reallydon't like it.

Don Early (33:31):
Yeah.
Uh it's uncomfortable.

It's really uncomfortable.

Don Early (33:35):
It is.
Uh, but I think it's importantto look at it and I think it
would be unfair to say that Johnwas antisemitic or that Luke was
antisemitic.

Really?

Don Early (33:49):
Yeah, we're looking at it backwards through the lens
of time and through the lens ofall the atrocities and things
and how people have used thesepassages for antisemitic
purposes.

Okay.
Yes.
I agree with that.
We are looking through itthrough that lens.

Don Early (34:06):
But when they're writing it, they, you know,
it's, it's difficult, but theyare facing their own issues.
And I don't think we've gottento the point where- they're not
in power, so anti-Semitism can'treally be too much of a thing
yet.
I mean, they can not like theJews or they can kind of put

(34:27):
them off a bit, but I mean, yougotta remember or Matthew, Mark
and John are all Jews.

Yeah.

Don Early (34:34):
And Jesus was a Jew and all, I mean, so it's more
complicated than seeing theseanti-Jewish things.
Yes.
There's, there'scontra-Jewishness going on, but
I wouldn't call it anti-Semitismjust yet.

I see what you're saying now.

Don Early (34:49):
Yeah.

I agree with that.

Don Early (34:53):
We are, we are definitely getting with Luke
and, and John we're definitely,we've got some time, uh, that
has happened.
We're getting more and more useof this term,"the Jews," and
she's, she spends a fair amountof time, really delineating
that.
I mean, they are used to say,okay, well, Jewish Jesus was

(35:13):
Jewish.
He was a Jew, but, but theauthor doesn't use it in a
derogatory way.
Just a way to describe who thatwas.
Uh, they describe people who arealso Jewish that's you, you
know, those terms are used inthe New Testament as well.
But as we get into Luke andJohn, we are also getting this

(35:35):
nuanced,"the Jews" as a targetedgroup of people who were against
Jesus.

It's just this, this vibe through the whole
thing.
It's just, it's, it's there,it's under the surface and
that's what I was getting fromit reading that.

Don Early (35:52):
Yeah.

Um, and it was, it was just, yeah, the divide is
growing.

Don Early (35:57):
I never saw this before either.

They're creating the divide.

Yeah, That's I mean, that's kind of the
thought, right?
That's the processes.
There was the, where, when, whenyou looked at Matthew trying to
tell the stories and again, whothe message was to, by the time
Luke and John are there, they'relike,"So they've messed up.
All of them.
They're not doing it anymore.

(36:24):
These are the real people.
These are the real believers,the real followers.
Therefore, they've got demons,they've been seduced by the dark
side.
They're agents of the dark side.
We're not.
We're agents of the light." Andit.
really did to like, drive thatwedge.
That was, that was a big part ofwhat the books were.

Yeah.
So it's just kind of like aself-fulfilling prophecy.
Where, where there's a wedgehere and we're going to write
about it, point out how horriblethis is and make the, the divide
even, even bigger.

Don Early (36:56):
Yeah.

And we're just going to keep that divide going,
because we're just going to keepwriting about it and, and
painting these people over herein a terrible light.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, it's icky.

Don Early (37:12):
A lot of the reasons though, is that, uh, this
budding faith still trying todiscover what it is.
There's a ton of different sectsand cults of Jesus that are out
there trying to figure out howto be a community.
And they're gettin' stomped bythe dominant religions and you

(37:35):
know, and those who are inpower.
So there's this animosity andresentment that's just growing
and growing because the otherthing is that, you know, to
them, Jesus was the Messiah is,is the divine being that was
killed.

Right.
And why wouldn't you be upset atthe other side?

Don Early (37:54):
And if he was this holy being then yeah.

And I guess just living in today's world with
everything that's going on inthe world right now, I just want
to scream at these texts.
Just,

Right.

Just let each other be! Leave each other alone!

And I, I can't imagine there was ever.
A time when they were writtenthat they would have any
understanding or knowledge ofthe impact that they would have
literally thousands of yearslater and what it would have
done in the world.
I, I I gotta imagine theywould've changed a couple of
things if they knew.

Don Early (38:31):
Yeah.

Yeah.
Just why can't we all just getalong?

Don Early (38:35):
Because some of us hold the truth and the rest of
everybody holds the lie.
That's why

Yeah.

Don Early (38:42):
Just reality-shaping bullshit.
That's right.
We're getting towards the endof, of Luke here.
Pilate we get to Pilate um, hetries to exonerate Jesus, like
three times.
He pronounces him innocent threetimes.

I kept loving how Pilate changes.
Like every one of these books,like Pilates, just a little
different,

Yeah.
Who do we have?
Who do we have this time?
Who knows?

Don Early (39:07):
That's right.
Yeah.
But still shaping it more andmore into this, well Pilate's
real reluctant, he's the Romanperson going to have to charge
Jesus with the official charge.

Well, I guess I have to.

Don Early (39:26):
So it's pretty clear that this gospel reveals that
Luke knew that Jesus wasexecuted by Roman authorities
and the charge was sedition.
The author had access to toofficial records, is what she's
going off of and is constructingthe narrative around that to fit

(39:47):
those facts.

Yeah.
She mentioned that, that, thatLuke probably also had some
records that the others didn'thave.
And so he was very, veryparticular about the things that
he had said,

Don Early (39:57):
it makes a lot of sense.
Cause he was a physician.
He was very intelligent.
And I will tell you that it isthe nicest Greek to read in the
New Testament.

I believe that.

Don Early (40:09):
It's very eloquent.
Uh, whereas Paul...
Paul keeps you guessing.

Oh, my husband can't.
My husband can't stand Paul.

Don Early (40:21):
There are a lot of, lots of reasons for and against,
uh, for sure.
So, uh, on page 96 I wanted toread this passage, we're just
talking about how Luke knew thatRomans had actually pronounced
sentence, Yet as Luke tells thestory he allows and perhaps even
wants the reader, especially oneunfamiliar with the other

(40:41):
accounts, to infer that afterthe Jews had arrested Jesus and
a Jewish court had sentenced himto death, it was the Jewish
soldiers who actually crucifiedhim, not the Roman soldiers.

Uh,

Don Early (40:57):
Yeah.
So Jesus demonstrates trust andsubmission to God rather than
the agony.
Luke removes all that

Yeah, So the whole passion part out of that, right?
Yeah.

Don Early (41:12):
Yeah.
And even on the cross you gotthe two robbers or whatnot, and
one of them is antagonizing andthe other one is like, Hey, uh,
save me, would you?

Yeah.

Don Early (41:24):
And so even dying on the cross, Lukes, Jesus
demonstrates the power toforgive and to save even then,
to a, nobody, even a criminalcan recognize Jesus's divinity.
You know, so for Luke, theseare, these are big things.
And then in Acts we reallysubmit, or, you know, uh,
solidify, this term,"the Jews,"right, as the real reason Jesus

(41:51):
was crucified and paints awell-meaning weakling in Pilate.
In summary, those who rejectJesus accomplish Satan's work on
earth.

Right.
That was an interesting summarythat came out of Luke, but it
was like, so much more hammeredwith John.

Don Early (42:13):
Oh yeah.

I had to go back a little bit and like, whoa, wait,
did we just switch?
Because, cause that was, thatwas a quick summary of like,
Satan's work is happening onearth because of the things that
happened to Christ.
But like John like took it thatextra step.
Not only was, was Satan doinghis work, but he was the, the
actual, antagonist to Christ,but, but not in an incarnate

(42:39):
form other than doing it throughother people.
And I, I just like over and overagain, you're like, oh, they're
possessed.
Oh no, now they're possessed orI possessed him.

Don Early (42:48):
Yeah, that's an interesting point though.
I didn't think of that.
That could be an argument Lukehad access to John.

Yeah, that's, that's a good point because it
was John that really said that,that, that was his big deal.

Don Early (43:06):
Yeah, let's get into John.
And so John and his fellowChristians have been forcibly
expelled from synagogues anddenied participation in common
worship, at least that's, thatseems to be the claim or the
sting, the pain that John iswriting from.

(43:27):
Many have pointed out thatJohn's gospel, as you've seen
throughout history has reallybeen the source of a lot of, uh,
antisemitism or, or, ininspiration...
Look no further than the MelGibson Passion of the Christ.

Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Villainizing being a Jew.

Don Early (43:46):
Oh yeah.

I never watched it.

You're not missing out.

Don Early (43:49):
It's not good.
I nearly walked out when Jesusstarted speaking Latin.

What?
I'm sorry, what?

That's a good one sentence story right there.

Don Early (43:59):
Really don't think Jesus learned Latin.
I'll give him Aramaic andHebrew.
Those two, but

Sure.

Don Early (44:09):
I don't know that he would have had access to the
others.
So John is a Jewish convert toChristianity.
That is the scholars generalconsensus.
And he paints this realinteresting picture.
In one explosive scene, Jesusaccuses the Jews of trying to
kill him saying"you are of yourfather, the devil," and the Jews

(44:33):
retaliate by accusing Jesus ofbeing a Samaritan, that is, not
a real Jew.
And himself demon possessed or,quote insane.

Here's the first one.

Don Early (44:46):
Here we are.
Let's just, so, you know,there's a lot of setup here, but
what's interesting is that LewisMartin, a New Testament scholar,
talks about that, uh, John'scrisis or his community is the
invention of this curse.

(45:06):
What he refers to as the"benediction of the heretics."
And he gives the, Hebrew wordfor it.
I don't know if I should try andpronounce it.
Birkat ha-minim, not sure.
It's a self-inflicting curse.
If you were a follower, ifyou're a Christian and you were
in this service, you start theservice off by cursing yourself

(45:31):
for being a Christian, and yourdescendants.
I mean, it's this, you know, so,so that, that's pretty bad
obviously.
That's one of the things thatJohn is, is, facing with in, in
dealing with, um, his, uh,what's the word, retro grade,

Mercury!

Don Early (45:56):
Uh, resentment, resentments,

Mercury's in retrograde in Gemini and it's a
shit storm.
I know nothing about astrology.
I just have to tell everybody Iknow zero about astrology,
except that somebody just beforewe recorded this sent me an

(46:18):
article that I happened to read.
I promise you that is all Iknow.
And apparently Mercury inretrograde is a big thing.
So it's a big, bad thing, Iguess, but it it's totally fucks
up communication.
That's that's, that's what Iread.
It must be true.

(46:39):
Well, I mean, look at the threeof us or at least Don and I,
Jeremy, you seem to be doingfine.

I'm just riding the wave.
I'm just staying quiet whenevery chance I get.
And so I can only say the onething here and there.

You're immune.
What are these powers you have?

Scorpio.

It's like, well, let's see, I am a Gemini.
This, this thing has me totallyscrewed up.
Oh shit.
You're going to do the music.

Don Early (47:08):
Yep.

Fuck.

Don Early (47:10):
No, you're off topic.

I was doing so good.

We're just staying quiet for a reason.

You guys have to interrupt me.

Don Early (47:22):
Why when we get gold like?

This is not gold.
Just showing that I need morehours of sleep at night.

Don Early (47:34):
I hear that.
So let's get back.
All right.
So, uh, Pagels actually goes onto talk about that.
John is actually facingsomething even worse than this
curse that we're talking about.
They're actually excludingJesus's followers, preventing
them from worshiping alongsidefellow Jews.

(47:58):
If you are a Jewish convert, youwere a Jew now you were a new
Jewish Christian, you have allthis history and tradition and
everything that you're used toand your way of life.
And now that is all forbidden.
You are barred from that.
You're kicked out,excommunicated, whatever you
want to call it.
And so that's a pain that he iswriting from him.

(48:20):
So he takes it, cosmic.
John goes cosmic in this, uh,conflict with Jesus, his story.
So Mark starts, the whole thingwith Jesus' baptism.
And then he's often running.
Matthew goes, well, I think it'sprobably when he was born, let's
go back to that Moses andPharaoh story.

(48:41):
And we'll, we'll truss that up.
And, and Luke's like, yeah, Ilike the birth story.
That's cool.
But John's like fucking Genesis!Creation of the universe,
motherfuckers.
This is this predates everythingthat we're talking about, the
primordial light and darknessand Jesus is the light So we

(49:05):
have, another thing that isreally interesting to me is we
have light, truth, and lifeagainst darkness, lies, and
death.
And these have to be justuniversal the ancient world, uh,

(49:29):
because light and truth werereal big with the Zoroastrians.
But I was going back in andlooking into this because I have
a hard-on for Zoroastrians,apparently.
Everything's from ZoriaZoroastrians, you know,
Zarathrusta which I still can'tsay.
But, Egypt.
Had a very similar feeling aboutlight and truth.

(49:53):
And, and so, uh, you know, inthe, in, in the ancient world,
this may have, you know, lightand truth and goodness, or maybe
goodness wasn't necessarily apart of it.
But light and truth and lifewere, were on one side and and
darkness and the lie was on theother side.
And so, you know, Ahriman or theAngra Mainyu was the embodiment

(50:17):
of the lie, um, and lying wasterrible for the Egyptians as
well.
So I keep trying to shove itback to the Zoroastrians, but
I'm thinking it's more of alarger broadly understood,
concept.

all fairness though like, back to what John's
original message was, right?
Like that's a big part of it.
It's it's the, it's the settingup the, well, truly it's the
setting up the big us versusthem.
And so he was creating thatlevel of context that are really
hard line of the followers ofChrist and not followers of

(50:54):
Christ or specificallyantagonists of Christ it with,
with the liars and the darknessand demons.
And right the possession and allof that.
It was just a big part of theway he used the language.
So having that kind ofconnection, having that, I don't
even wanna call it universal,but, but an easily understood

(51:16):
reference of the light versusdark.
And, and the Zoroastrianismthat, that has been around by
this point late, like, like itisn't, as an understood thought
really allows him to connect tohis audience in that other way.
And in that way of setting upthe,"Well, I don't know what
your Jesus is.

(51:36):
I don't know what, what thePharisees are all talking
about." It's like,"well, do youknow, light and dark, do you
know, light that, you know, whatlight is versus evil and what
lies are?
That them, these are us." Likereally, really creating that
separation for his audience Ithink.

Don Early (51:53):
I mean, what a hook, what a sales pitch.
Right?
And that's what this is allabout.
Is, how do you appeal to thebroadest audience for the
urgent, most urgent need, orcreate the most urgent need?
You know?
That's a really good summary,Jeremy.
I like that.

Thanks.

Me too.

Don Early (52:14):
Yeah, so like you said, then that means light
equals Jesus and darkness isanything that's, I like what you
said, anti-Jesus.
Against Jesus.
Not just, not Jesus.
It's, you know, you can have notChristians, but really it's
these people who were activelyagainst the Christians that are

(52:38):
the agents of darkness, the sonsof darkness.

Totally agree.

Don Early (52:43):
And as cosmic and everything as it is I never paid
attention to the fact that thedevil doesn't make a bodily
appearance in this gospel,really.
The devil does not appear as aseparate disembodied entity or
being.
Rather, as you stated, Jeremy,people take on the Devil's

(53:05):
roles.
That, the devil shows up and andother figures or other stories,
but the people take on his roleinstead.
And this is the, temptationsthat we were talking about, uh,
Emily.
So there is the threetemptations and starting on page
101, she starts breaking outthat in Gospel of John people

(53:29):
replace the devil in thetemptation stories.
So instead of the devil saying,do this, it's a group of people
saying that instead.
I thought it was reallyinteresting.
For example, Matthew and Lukeshow Satan challenging Jesus to
claim earthly power, butaccording to John, this

(53:49):
challenge occurs when the peoplewere about to come and take him
by force to make him king, likeyou're our king.

Hm.

Don Early (53:57):
He resists the temptation.

Which was, which in my mind was part of where
the, uh, the Luke reference camefrom.
Right there.
There was the whole, beingdeclared and end the Psalm
Sunday.
And, and, you know, if the rockswould cry out if the people
didn't do it for me.
That, that, that was what I wasinterpreting as that temptation
in the wilderness of go to thecity where the people would try

(54:20):
to kill you.
It was go to the city to bedeclared king and, and, and to
be ruler of the of this land andin his temptation was, uh,
against the pride of, of that,of, of being celebrated as the
person.
But, but switchedinterpretations again.

Don Early (54:35):
Yeah.

That's that's, that's where I was getting

Don Early (54:38):
Got it.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, you know, Jesus escapeslike, like a super villain or
something.
In another temptation, Matthewand Luke, following Q, relate
that the devil challenges Jesusto prove his divine authority by
making these stones into bread.
And she goes on to say, but Johnsays that those who witnessed

(55:00):
Jesus' miracles and inparticular, the multiplication
of five loaves into many, thenchallenge him to perform another
miracle as further proof of hismessianic identity.
And like the devil who's quotedthe scriptures in Luke and
Matthew, the people in Johnquote them as they urge Jesus to

(55:21):
produce bread miraculously.

In chapter six, verse 30 and 31: "So they said to him, what sign (55:23):
undefined
do you do that we may see andbelieve you?
What work do you perform?
Our father's ate mana in thewilderness, as it is written, he
gave them bread from heaven toeat." And so Jesus resists this
temptation as well.
I'm not going to go on for therest of them, but the point
being is we he's grabbing thoseparallels, but he's making

(55:48):
groups of people do it.
I think I like better than thisdiabolical singular being, Well,
hear me out because it's morerealistic.
Mob mentality, group mentalityexists.
It's a thing.
And, and, the other thing, youknow, it's just, it's so human,

(56:12):
I think that you just sawsomething amazing and they're
saying, do it again.

Correct.

Yeah, totally.

Don Early (56:21):
We don't believe it.
Do it again!

Yeah.
That's valid.
Then, there's a part of methough that, like, I think it,
it makes sense again, from thestorytelling standpoint I write
and the audience that, that he'sspeaking to.
Personal desires as I reallywish there was an actual person
villain instead, because the waythis is written in the way that

(56:51):
it's done is that the devilacted through the mob because
they let him, because they werethe, the, the sons of Satan and,
and, and they allowed themselvesto be possessed because they
were the opposites and it just,it really creates that picture
of the divide, right?
That, again, that, that level,that like you have Christians

(57:15):
who follow Jesus Christ, andthen you have the Jews, who are
not Christians and enemies ofChrist.
And, and right.
And, and we already talked aboutthis earlier, but like that's
part of where that other-ismthat separation came from.
Whereas if you had Christiansand you had the devil, this one
guy who was fighting everybody,like, cool, let's go fight that

(57:38):
asshole rather than this groupof people that, uh, right.
If I could have done itdifferently 2000 years ago,
that's my edits would have madethat

Don Early (57:50):
How it should have ended, by Jeremy Spray.

That's right.

Don Early (57:57):
Yeah, the story standpoint, that makes a lot of
sense and what a difference thatwould have made.
If that delineation of a,existential figure, a
supernatural figure, you know,whatever, this, this principle
of evil as a targeted externalforce.

(58:17):
I mean, we still get that, butas, as you said very well that
anybody who is against you, thereader or the followers of
these, willingly gave themselvesup to the devil.
And those implications areterrible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Don Early (58:39):
This is where we get all these atrocities.
I guess this is where that term,the Jews, gets really cemented
as, referring to a group ofpeople that are against Jesus,
more and more.
John associates Satan with aspecific human opposition, first

(59:00):
in Judas Iscariot, Satan goesinto, the devil goes into Judas
Iscariot in order to, you know,do the betrayal thing.
The Jewish authorities who areclearly plotting against Jesus.
And then the Jews collectively.
And everyone who opposes Jesus,or contributed to his

(59:23):
destruction and you know denyhis divinity or Messiah, they
are in service of the evil one.

Right.

Don Early (59:32):
I just feel like this, this chapter hit that
particular note between Luke andJohn, pretty hard.

Yeah.

I agree.
I think that's, that's one ofthe biggest reasons that like
both of these chapters where itcombined for this one is there's
that really, really solidconnection right there.

Don Early (59:51):
Yeah, it's very similar.

Yeah.

Don Early (59:54):
Um, and as we said, uh, well, it was interesting.
So with Pilate, we talked aboutthe further away from history we
get to the actual historicalperson, the more sympathetic
character he becomes,

Emily Quann (01:00:06):
Hmm.

Don Early (01:00:07):
Conversely the more revoo removed from history, the
more antagonistic the Jewsquote/ unquote become.
They become increasingly moreantagonistic.
So you have this sort of inversething going on between Pilate
and the Jews.

Yeah, they're painted in a terrible light.

Don Early (01:00:29):
Yeah, well, I have no better summary than the one
written on page 111.
So I'm just going to read it.
"Writing circa 100 CE Johndismisses the device of the
devil as an independentsupernatural character, if
indeed he knew of it, as Isuspect he did.

(01:00:52):
Instead John tells the story,Satan, like God himself appears
incarnate.
First and Judas Iscariot.
Then in the Jewish authorities,as they mount, opposition to
Jesus.
And finally, in those Johncalls, quote unquote, the Jews,
a group, he sometimescharacterizes as Satan's allies

(01:01:14):
now as separate from Jesus andhis followers as darkness is
from light or the forces of hellfrom the armies of heaven."

Well, they're eco.
There you go.

Jeremy Spray (01:01:30):
Now it is a spiritual warfare.

Don Early (01:01:34):
It is.
Even still, I think one of thethings sort of jumped out at me
is, I mean, John is very biginto"the word was made flesh and
dwelt among us." You know?
I mean, this is all, Jesus isthe light and the life.
And, you know, he is Godincarnate, you know, his
divinity incarnate.
Well, it never occurred to methat he did the same thing with

(01:01:58):
the devil.
But with the devil, it's not oneperson.
It's a bunch of people.

Yeah.
Right

Don Early (01:02:05):
The devil is incarnate in many others,

And the tempters and the mob the, the, the, the,
those who do doubt him.
And he didn't even call out thePharisees, but, but, but The
leaders and the Phariseesagainst same, same kind of deal,
the opposition.

Don Early (01:02:21):
And we're done with the gospels

We're out.

Don Early (01:02:25):
We're out.

We don't have to repeat the same story again.

Yay.

Don Early (01:02:31):
Come back to it, but yeah.
So, two more chapters and aconclusion coming up.

Cool.

Are we over half done with the book now?

Don Early (01:02:41):
Yes, we are over half done.
Yeah.
So, uh, next chapter is chapterfive: Satan's Earthly Kingdom
Christians Against Pagans.

Oh man.
I didn't even bring that partup.
I wanted to, I thought that wassuch an amazing topic.
And I think the reason I didn'tbring it up is because I started
the next chapter, like in thefirst 10 minutes.
And I was like, WHAT?
Like, so here's the thing.
Christians were being persecutedfor being, I love this.
I want to say it again.
Christians were persecuted forbeing atheist.

(01:03:16):
And that was a, that was a majorpersecution that came on the
Christians was for beingatheists against the pagan gods.
And I was like, I never thoughtof it like that.
It's like the idea that you donot follow our gods and you
don't believe in our gods,therefore you don't exist and
we're going to knock you out.

(01:03:37):
And I was like, Ooh, atheisthave always been persecuted even
when they were Christians.
Like, it was so amazing.
So yeah, I started the chapter.
So I think we'll bring that upin the next one.

Don Early (01:03:50):
That's awesome.
Well, and too, uh, so you weretalking about how the Gentiles
were referred to as everything.
That's not Jewish.
Right.
So then we get pagans.
And pagans become the termthat's everything that's, not
Christian.

Yeah.
Right.
That's that's, that's certainlyhow it's been turned now.

Don Early (01:04:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So awesome guys.
We'll uh, yeah, chapter fivecoming up, against the pagans
thing.
Ding, ding.
Who's got the money on what,

We'll see how it turns out, I guess.

Don Early (01:04:31):
Unfortunately we know who comes out on top.
I never have the, the ending,the capstone, the sort of
sendoff.
Jeremy help me out.
You lead these

Yeah.
I mean, I can do it all thetime.
So, so to, to wrap up, uh, thatwas a lot of the spiritual
concepts of what the devil was,who the devil was a part of or
the way it was determined, andin the next one, we'll talk
about the battle Royale ofpaganism versus Christianity and
who the real atheists were.

I'm excited.

Don Early (01:05:06):
Man, there's no way I could have said that better.
Way to read ahead, Jeremy,

Overachiever.

Don Early (01:05:15):
You win the day on that one.
All right, folks.
Good night.

See you guys.

Goodnight.

Don Early (01:05:20):
This has been The Devil You Don't Know, and we are
done with the gospels.
Up next, we begin our look atChapter Five, Satan's Earthly

Kingdom (01:05:30):
Christians Against the Pagans.
So a suit up for that one.
I've got some extra material forthat actually, from the Jeffrey
Burton Russell book.
So might be a two-parterepisode.
Stay tuned for that.
If you were enjoying thispodcast, please consider joining

(01:05:50):
our Patreon atpatreon.com/thedevilpodcast.
As a contributor, you get accessto our episodes before they
release bonus content.
Uh, you get to discuss futureepisode ideas and more.
And the money we raised not onlygoes towards our monthly costs
of the show, which I justtallied up and I have some

(01:06:12):
thinking to do.
But also helps raise money tohave on prominent guests like
scholars.
Who write like books and stuff.
Don't forget to rate us andleave a review on Apple Podcasts
or Podchaser links are in theepisode description.
Thank you all for listening.
And remember the devil you don'tknow is the devil someone else

(01:06:34):
does.
Until next time.

All Episodes

BOOK: TOS - Chapter 4: The Gospels of Luke & John

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}BOOK: TOS - Chapter 4: The Gospels of Luke & John