February 1, 2024 • 55 mins
Sara Roberts (Bayview Talent and host of Success Unscripted) may not immediately jump out to you as an obvious guest of this podcast. No, she doesn't run a digital CS function nor does she have a rich history in CS.
What she does have is her finger on the pulse for growing and scaling CS teams as that is her recruiting agency's specialty. As such, it was a great opportunity to talk about two specific areas: the state of the CS job market today and how to build & scale digital functions.
In this fascinating interview we discussed:
- Being part of the Zenefits growth and the evolution into her establishing Bayview, specifically focused on CS recruiting
- Hiring and the job search freeze are thawing
- Sara’s motivation for starting the Success Unscripted Podcast
- The importance of being vulnerable and sharing your hard experiences to help others who are doing the same
- Building and scaling digital teams from a hiring perspective
- Hiring for digital is not just about putting your Junior CS teams in a scaled team but instead looking for technical resources, marketing people, product…etc.
- Start by analyzing what systems & people you have. What are the skills gaps in relation to what problems you’re trying to solve. That will inform your hiring strategy for digital.
- For a digital role - you are looking to hire people who can go deep into the data, but can also pull up and see the strategy
- Practical advice for CSMs looking for their next role: take on projects and prove you can already do the work of that role
- For those looking for work: Focus on the industry you already have experience with which will give you a leg up over other applicants. Focus on the ACV of the target customer that is within your comfort range. Finally, focus on what stage company it is vs. your experience.
- Don’t just send in your resume and call it a day - recruiters are likely not looking at those resumes. Find the manager of the team and send them a note on LinkedIn.
Sara’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saralynneroberts/
Bayview Talent: https://www.bayviewtalent.com/
Success Unscripted Podcast: https://www.unscriptedpod.com/
Resources:
- Crunchbase for conducting targeted company searches based on your criteria
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You need somebody that can go deep into the data
but then can also pull out andsee the strategy.
So how do you understandcustomer behaviors by looking at
numbers?
Not a lot of people can do thatand that's where like and it's
always so hard hard to hire forhis team, because he always
(00:23):
wants people that like are badasset sequel.
And like most CSMs are not, sothat would be the first thing
that I would recommend forpeople who are looking to get it
more into.
Digital is like really brush upon your Excel skills, because
it's not about talking tocustomers.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
And once again, welcome to the digital customer
success podcast with me, alexTrokovich.
So glad you could join us heretoday and every week as I seek
out and interview leaders andpractitioners who are innovating
and building great scaled CSprograms.
My goal is to share what I'velearned and to bring you along
with me for the ride so that youget the insights that you need
(01:03):
to build and evolve your owndigital CS program.
If you'd like more info, wantto get in touch or sign up for
the latest updates, go todigitalcustomersuccesscom.
For now, let's get started.
Greetings and welcome to thedigital customer success podcast
.
This is episode number 36.
(01:23):
It's actually an off cyclebonus episode for the week If
you are listening to it live,and I wanted to bring this
conversation to you soonerrather than later because it is
a bit of a timely one.
Today's guest is Sarah Robertsof Bayview Talent.
She is a she basically runs atalent staffing agency
(01:48):
recruiting agency that thatfocuses on building and scaling
customer success teams.
So she's super niche and has alot of great things to say about
that.
But the reason why I meanobviously the conversation is
timely is because we all knowwhat a tough market it is out
there there's lots of folkslooking for gigs and you know, I
(02:12):
mean, 23 was pretty rough ontech and customer success.
So Sarah shares some wonderfulinsights about the current job
market and just recruiting andCS in general.
But add to that there there,there is a mystique that
(02:35):
surrounds staffing a digitalcustomer success team or scaled
customer success team, in that,you know, a lot of folks seem to
think that they can just kindof throw junior CSMs into a
scale team, or they may notexactly know what type of talent
they need to really build out asolid digital team, and so
(02:59):
Sarah and I spend quite a bit oftime talking through you know
what kind of profiles you'relooking for when it comes to
building a digital team.
So a lot of very timely and alot of very important
information that I didn't wantto sit on and I wanted to
publish as soon as I could.
So please enjoy thisconversation with Sarah Roberts,
(03:20):
because I sure did.
What should we talk about?
Like actual stuff, or Sure?
Yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I don't know.
Yeah, I mean I'm this firsttime I've been on this side of
it.
I'm usually asking thequestions.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Right, I was.
I was subjected to thatexperience a couple of times in
the last few weeks and it's it'sa little bit different, it's a
different vibe, and I keptwanting to like take control of
this.
Yeah, but yeah, it's it, yeah,it's different, it's different,
but I'm really pleased to haveyou on the show.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited about it and I'm
curious to see how you do theintros because or the kind of
first part of the podcast,because I find that mine are
always like a little awkward,like it takes a minute to get
into it, you know, and like it'snever, not awkward.
Okay, it's always.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And like.
But, like, part of me is likewell, you know, that's this,
that's the stuff that makes itkind of human, you know, because
there's so many shows that youknow are somewhat scripted and I
don't want to, I don't want todo that, Let me don't play that.
Yeah, so, but look, I mean,what's funny is I was thinking a
little bit, you know, prior tothe show we actually first met I
(04:47):
don't know when it was, it wasa while ago because I mean,
you're, you're, yeah, I was likeI don't know, last year maybe,
Maybe I don't know, I think itwas before.
Yeah, so you, you know we hadtalked about a role and what I
loved about that.
You know there's recruiters youtalk to that are just kind of
(05:09):
like recruiters, and thenthere's recruiters you talk to
that are like awesome people andthat's what I gleaned from our
conversation because you werereal with me about it and it was
like, you know, you were realwith me and it and it, you know,
didn't work out for whateverreason, but you know it was.
It was cool because that leftan impression out.
(05:31):
When I saw you started yourpodcast, which is Success
Unscripted, which I love I'm ahuge fan of the show I was like,
oh, sarah Roberts, right,connect to the dots and it's
it's, it's cool that you're,you're doing it.
So congrats on the on the showas well.
So tell me a little bit aboutjust kind of what.
(05:51):
So, for those that don't know,right, baby, you talent is your
recruiting agency.
You focus primarily on kind ofbuilding CS teams and helping,
helping to grow CS teams alittle bit.
But give us a little bit of thegenesis of that.
Like what, what got you intothere and what, what kind of
niched you into CS?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's kind of an interestingstory.
I've never actually worked incustomer success.
I started my career actually inmarketing at the tech company.
I grew up in the Bay Area andthen, like, briefly, did a stint
at a recruiting agency and thenI got into sales and and and
(06:38):
the recruiting that I do isthere's a lot of sales.
To it, you know it's more salesHR.
I would say Absolutely yeah.
And I worked at Xenophants.
That was my first sales job andthey grew from 54 to 1100
employees in the year that I wasthere and in one year, yeah and
(07:00):
yeah, it was yeah.
It was like at the time, it wasthe fastest growing tech
company in the history ofSilicon Valley and and it was
great and I, you know, got toknow Parker when it was really
small.
I used to sit next to him andand then, you know, it grew and
grew and grew and I was doingvery well there.
One, I want to say it was likeOctober of 20, 20, 2015, 2014,.
(07:27):
Maybe I was 192 percent toquota, and so we're selling
these insurance plans.
Basically, you become thebroker of record.
And that's the way that you, theway that Xenophants at the time
, got their revenue, but thenwe're also having to get them
through open enrollment.
So it's October.
I have all these customers thatI've closed and then I'm also
(07:50):
doing so.
This is November.
Actually, I'm doing hour longback to back demos, eight of
them every single day couldnever get my inbox past or lower
than 50.
And while we had scaled thesales team, we didn't really
scale the post sales team and soit was usually took about six
(08:15):
weeks to get an implementationmanager assigned to an account,
and those implementationmanagers were the ones that
really set them up in the systembut also took them through open
enrollment and help them withtheir benefits plans.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So after eight hours of demos and trying to get
through my inbox, I'm alsohelping my customers that I've
already closed the month before.
Go through open enrollment andI'll never forget there was one
account in Texas I think theguy's name was Paris and it was.
It was a small account, it wasonly like five people, but he
was on United Health Care andbecause at the time we didn't
(08:54):
have territories, we wereselling across the country in
all at all, with all differentcarriers and they all have
different rules and UHC.
For some reason their openenrollment happens two months
before it normally happens andso we missed open enrollment and
he was so pissed, as he shouldhave been.
(09:14):
He was like my wife is pregnantand I probably would have
stayed on these plans, but Iwanted the opportunity to at
least see.
That kept me up at night.
It was just ridiculouslystressful.
But that was the first time Ireally started to understand the
(09:35):
importance of taking care ofyour customers once you sell
them.
I always became friends withthe implementation managers and
the CSMs and the accountmanagers and all that.
I was also really curious aboutthat handoff and the deal desk
stuff and sales force andwhatever.
That sparked my interest.
(09:55):
I then worked at a couple ofother startups and sales, then
got back into recruiting.
I was working for Hunter SFthey place investment
professionals at private equityand venture capital firms
primarily but I realized Iwanted to work with tech
companies again.
I had brought on a couple ofclients while I was there and
(10:21):
they encouraged that, but Idecided I wanted to start my own
thing.
So 2019, I founded Bayview and Iknew I wanted to have some sort
of specialty.
I knew I wanted to go to marketbecause that's what I know
marketing, sales, customersuccess.
I actually hired a guy to dosome market research and called
(10:42):
a bunch of different VCs.
We realized that nobody wasdoing customer success.
Nobody was focused on customersuccess.
You have Bets and Lions and allthese different companies that
are really focused on sales anddo a little bit of marketing,
but at the time there wasn't.
It was almost kind of a newthing.
It had been around for five, 10years.
(11:04):
People didn't understand it aswell as they do today, which is
not saying much.
I reached out to Parker.
This is when the Rippling hadjust raised a $45 million series
A.
They had one CSM but neededfive more.
(11:25):
So I found those five CSMswithin six weeks and then it
just snowballed from there.
Fast forward, I've placed over60 people at 15 different
startups, Just as a result ofhaving so many conversations
with candidates and hiringmanagers of what are you looking
(11:45):
for?
But then on the candidate side,what are you doing?
How are you building your teams?
What systems are you using?
What's worked?
What hasn't worked?
That's really been helped meget a really good understanding
of the market and also advise myclients on market compensation.
What should you actually belooking for in this role?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So it's been really fun.
That's so cool.
Yeah, I love that story and thegenus and kudos to you for
actually doing market researchto figure out where the need was
.
But I love that about you justasking the questions and getting
(12:26):
beyond.
This is the job description.
Go, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, Well, I mean I like to pose deals.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Well, I mean the reason why.
At first glance it may seem oddto the listener that we're
chatting on the podcast, butactually I'm crazy excited to
chat with you today, because Ithink that one of the major
questions that I get very, veryfrequently is okay, you've
(12:59):
decided to build a digitalfunction team and all that kind
of stuff.
Okay, how do we hire people forthis role?
What is this thing?
What does a scale team do, andwho do I need to run my digital
CS team and whatnot?
(13:20):
And it's a bit of a mystery outthere, and so I'm hoping,
through our conversation, thatwe can dispel the myths a little
bit, because there are somepretty unique approaches that
I've seen out there, but there'salso some standardization of
what it is that a lot of peopleare building with scale teams,
(13:41):
which I think is pretty cool.
So I guess let's start a littlebit from an industry state of
the industry kind of perspectiveright, especially from the
recruiting point of view,because it's no secret I mean
everybody's been talking aboutit it's rough out there.
(14:02):
There's lots of people lookingfor gigs, layoffs are still
happening and it's kind of diceyout there, and my heart
definitely goes out to folks whoare on the prowl and have been
affected, and so give us a sensefor where we are today.
(14:25):
This is January of 24, which isweird to say, but where are we
today?
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I have a two-year-old , so I may be coughing.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So if you had asked me that question a month ago, my
answer would be different,which is a good thing.
Last year was rough.
I mean, I'm used to literallyturning down clients because I
(14:59):
don't have enough bandwidth andgetting recommendations from
CEOs and BCs Because I alsotypically work with earlier
stage, so series A and prior tolast year, if you get a large
investment, you're makingpromises to the board that
(15:21):
you're going to accomplish allof these different things and so
growth is, and hiring the rightpeople quickly is absolutely
required in order to meet thosegoals, and so prior to last year
as a recruiter, it was awesomeand everybody was hiring.
(15:46):
They had the budget to pay forrecruiters, which I get paid a
percentage of a candidate'sfirst year's base salary, and
last year it was absolutelycrickets.
I had a couple of searches withmy client keeper in the
beginning of the year, and thenI worked with a bootstrapped
(16:07):
company for a little while thatI met when I was doing a keynote
in New York and we didn't endup finding the right person, but
other than that I basically mybusiness was non-existent
essentially, which you canimagine how that feels.
(16:32):
And I made the decision.
I'm not going to do businessdevelopment.
I'm not going to actively reachout to these companies because
they don't need me right now.
Conserving cash and extendingyour runway is the most
important thing for thesecompanies, not growth.
And so, even if they have openroles and companies were hiring,
they're not going to pay me 25%of a candidate's first year
(16:54):
base salary.
They're going to have a hiringmanager do that.
So it was pretty rough, butI'll tell you you're catching me
on a really good week.
Just brought on my first bigsearch in a year with my client,
gorgeous, who I placed like 30people there.
(17:15):
Just absolutely love workingwith them.
At least the VP of success wasepisode three, I think of.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Success.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Unscripted.
So helping them with thedirector of customer success
search, I might help them withanother one if this one
candidate doesn't work out, andthen also potentially ahead of
revenue, and then I have twoother clients that are waiting
in the wings as well.
So I've also been hearing, yeah, seeing on LinkedIn that you
(17:45):
know, I've been hearing otherrecruiters posting and
recruiters have had it reallyrough.
I mean, half of Sequoia'stalent team was laid off last
year and they're one of the topVCs.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Unreal.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I mean this just doesn't happen.
It's the worst recession thattech has been in since ever,
even 2008.
So, yeah, so it's, I mean it'sgood.
I think this year, you know,knock on wood, nothing crazy
happens globally.
I think things are going to bereally, really, really different
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, I love to hear that because obviously you know,
if recruiters are busier, thatmeans the job market is looking
more favorable, which is good.
Yeah, it's a good sign overall.
So I mean, look, you startedSuccess Unscripted.
You know a few months ago.
But engine, a big part of itwas out of just being sl-.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, having a lot of time on my hands.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Do some stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I'm sure that was part of it.
But also, you know what was theimpetus behind Success?
Unscripted.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah.
So by like I don't knowFebruary of last year, I
realized that it was going to beslow for a while and I actually
tried to start another business.
I mean there are so manybusinesses I've started that
(19:22):
have failed.
I mean I could mean them all.
But this one was called yeah, Imean yeah, if you're an
entrepreneur, that's just yeah,that's how it goes.
So I started this business, orhad the idea and went pretty
deep in it for a while calledRocket Launch, and the purpose
(19:45):
was, you know, I'm fascinated bywhat makes people thrive.
When I'm talking to an A playeror someone who has just
skyrocketed their career, whatis it about them?
And my belief is that it's.
Those are the people that areable to find roles that really
(20:09):
align with their passions andwhere they're excited to wake up
in the morning.
And none of us like everysingle aspect of our jobs, but
if you can get into that stateof flow, like 30% of the time,
you're gonna be far moresuccessful than doing something
that you don't enjoy.
So, taking that idea andthinking about our education
(20:32):
system and how, like when you'rea college senior and you go to
a job fair, it's like if youleave the job fair with a job,
it's like, yes, I did it, youknow like, I did it and that's
the goal, and there's no realconversation about okay, what do
these career paths look like?
What is you know, what's theday to day, what skills are
(20:58):
required, how much money do theymake?
And so I and I've talked aboutmental health a lot in my
podcast as well.
My goal was, or the thinking was, I could help college students
understand what their optionsare people a couple of years out
(21:19):
of college so that they couldpursue careers that are more in
line with what they love to doand what they're good at and
what they want to learn more of.
So I did a ton more marketresearch and I talked to a lot
of marketers.
I talked to a lot of peoplethat are in the education space.
I know the guy heading up CS atUSF spoke with.
(21:44):
He got me in touch with aprofessor and talked to a lot of
parents and a lot of studentsand what I discovered was the
problem existed, but it wasgoing to be really hard to
actually monetize this because,you know, college students are
very flaky and they have amillion things going on and they
(22:06):
just they're not going to sitdown and actually do that.
Most of them and their parentsaren't much easier to lock down
and I don't know if I would havereally actually enjoyed
creating the curriculum, becauseI kind of took a stab at it.
But what Success Unscripted isvery much a evolution of that,
(22:27):
because part of the course wasgoing to be bringing in people
that are inspiring to me andthat have had interesting
careers and asking them the samequestions that I'm asking on
the podcast, and so I actuallyfound this note in my Notion to
Do list that I wrote about ayear ago.
Like I need to start creatingcontent and interviewing people,
(22:48):
but like I wish I could justyou know, like I was so against
it because I'm not a contentperson, and then I just you know
, I'm just going to do it.
I'm just going to do it and Idid my first one and it's been
really interesting, and thefocus is, I always say, the what
(23:09):
is customer success, but thewhy is all that other stuff that
I'm talking about?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
and helping people really find their passion,
because I believe that, one, youcannot separate your mental
health from your work and, two,my experience of white knuckling
it through all of thesedifferent jobs is not uncommon
and so, yeah, so I Likeworkplace trauma is a real thing
(23:39):
, like it's not something thatis I think, more and more people
are talking about it now, whichis great, and especially, you
know, post pandemic and with allthe layoffs that have been
happening and all that kind ofstuff Like finally there is a
focus on mental health andworkplace trauma.
But I mean you know the I meanhonestly, the couple of decades
(24:04):
I spent just like grinning andbearing stuff.
I mean the circles in my eyesare direct results of that and
many people.
I mean it's like it's a realthing and so you know, I love
that you're highlighting thosethings.
And I wanna go back to one thingthat you said just earlier
(24:25):
around our education, you knowsystem, around jobs and careers.
It's so messed up.
I mean I remember this is I'man old fart, so, like I remember
eons ago, when I was like inhigh school, they did these
tests and the tests, like youknow, like scored you on what
(24:45):
you were good at in school andstuff like that, and they said,
oh, you might be good at thisand you might be good at had no
kind of room for what do youlike to do?
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know what are the things that, like, you get up
in the morning.
If you didn't have school orwork, what would you be doing?
You know and like what excitesyou and there's like no
conversation about that and Ithink even to this day it's like
, it's like you're expected togo to, you know, high school and
then I don't know, college isstarting to differ these days,
(25:19):
but you know, like you go tocollege and then you know what
it is you do, when in reality,like you could figure that out
probably way sooner.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's I mean, that's reallythe goal and it's been I even
after the second.
So the second episode, that'sthe one with Nicky, where I also
drank some wine.
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
It was a good one.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, it was a good one.
But we both really talked aboutsome hard times in our lives
and you know suicidal ideationand I mean it really went there.
And this is my second episodeand a guy reached out to me on
LinkedIn and just thanked me forsharing and for naming what it
(26:18):
is that he's going through andalso, you know, kind of lifting
that burden a little bit,because I think sharing and
knowing that you're not aloneand that it's okay to go through
those hard times and they willpass.
I always said if I can help oneperson with the podcast, then
I've done my job.
And so it's been.
(26:41):
Yeah, it's been really, reallyfun.
I just released the fifthepisode today, so we'll see.
But, like you said, I mean, andthank you for reaching out
after the first couple episodes,I know you said in an email,
like it's really hard, like thevulnerability required to create
(27:02):
a podcast and then put it outinto the universe.
And people are watching itwhenever you know you don't know
who's watching it when they'rewatching it, what they're
thinking, what they're saying toother people.
It's really, really scary and Ithere were many times where I
almost just scrapped the wholething after I had several
episodes recorded.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it's a vulnerable thingand you end up saying stupid
shit and it's like yeah, okaywell, okay, you almost have to
at least my experience of thewhole thing is like you almost
have to separate yourself alittle bit and just go.
Yeah, okay, I'm going to bevulnerable for this hour and
(27:45):
then the next hour it takes toedit it and then put it out
there and forget about it.
But yeah, it's, it's hard, yeah.
So kudos to you for ripping offthe bandaid.
Likewise, yeah, I do, I do wantto, you know.
Okay, subject at hand, though, Ido want to spend a little bit
of time talking about CS andspecifically like building and
(28:11):
scaling digital teams, becauseI'm just going to start with the
assumption that a lot of CSleaders, when they go to start a
scale team which is, I love howyou set up straight we got to
talking about serious stuff.
That was funny.
But you know, the assumptionthat a lot of CS leaders make
(28:34):
when they go teams is like, oh,we're just going to stick our
junior CSMs into this thingcalled scaled and just kind of
work on that or do that, or youknow whatever, and it's it's.
I think, time and time again,it's been proven to not be the
correct approach, and we can diginto what those.
You know what that is.
But I think, fundamentally,like the skill set needed to be
(28:59):
part of a digital team and partof a scale team, which are two
different things, I would sayare are, I think, vastly
different than what your typicalCSM you know role would be yes.
Wouldn't you say so?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Well, it's certainly different than, like an
enterprise, customer successmotion the traditional high
touch, working with 10 customersor less, working with multiple
stakeholders and getting thatinformation from the customer,
from conversations, yes.
So I think digital, the smaller, the more digital and just the
(29:39):
overall CS strategy start tomeld in one of the one in the
same.
But I do think that the, thescale motions and the digital CS
strategies that you put inplace can also aid those
enterprise accounts as well.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Totally, yeah, totally.
I mean, you know, I see, I seekind of a trend emerging and I'm
curious if to know if you'veseen the same thing with your
clients, which is to say that ifyou're going to go scale CS,
there's kind of like two things,two parts of the recipe from a
staffing perspective.
(30:20):
One is kind of like this opsthing, where you've got some
people plugged in to build stuff, to do the data analysis, to do
the automations to build.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then you know you've got ascale team which essentially
might be a pooled team, might beregional, specific people who
(30:43):
are then taking thoseautomations, reacting to
triggers, you know, respondingto things and whatnot, and and
but.
But are you seeing the samekind of trend of those, those
two kind of main things, as partof a digital strategy?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, and I I mean I don't know if I would.
I think that's absolutely right.
Yes, the ops and then the scalefunction and and in your
definition the scale is likeactually those, those CSMs that
are working with those largerpool of customers, or sometimes
there will be multiple CSMsworking with you know, 10,000
(31:21):
customers in a shared inbox orsomething.
Yeah, right, but I think, for me, digital customer success and I
know you ask all of your, yourguest this, but digital CS is
really about helping yourcustomers achieve their goals
(31:42):
using technology and not thehuman intervention and their
partner together.
I think any any good digital orany good CS program is going to
have a little bit of both andknow when to use the technology
and when to use the humanintervention, but really needing
customers where they are, andcustomers don't always want to
(32:04):
pick up the phone, right?
So if they have a question, howare they going to answer it
themselves?
It could be a chat bot, itcould be through email, it could
be through self-serve resourcescontent on the website.
So there's that like self-helppiece, that that digital can can
(32:26):
, really that, that digital canpioneer, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
And so.
But then there's also the, thatidea of like customer successes
, about figuring out who yourmost successful customers are,
the ones that are getting themost ROI, utilizing it the most
and use it, utilizing it in themost effective way.
So understanding who thosecustomers are and then creating
(33:00):
triggers and and incentivize andencourage encouraging behaviors
that will make other customersact more like those successful
customers.
And so that's also a big pieceof digital is what is the
customer journey?
What are those, what are thosemajor milestones that the
(33:24):
successful customers are hittingand how do we get others to do
that?
And there may be multiplecustomer journeys and different
segmentations based on productor size or whatever.
But that piece of digital isalmost more like marketing.
So when I think of digital,there's yes, there's the,
(33:45):
there's the more ops, like Ioften pull people from, like
consulting or like a sticks fixor Walmart actually has a lot of
people that do a lot of thisreally, really advanced kind of
ops, digital CS.
They typically know SQL, theytypically.
So SQL is more for like pullingand analyzing the data, and
(34:09):
then Python can help buildcustom automations.
So that's the ops piece, andthen you have more of a content
writer right, which is almostmore like marketing.
That does the customereducation and the self serve
(34:29):
portal.
Then you also have people thaton that marketing side are
understanding how to how tobuild marketing campaigns for
the existing customers.
And then there's all thosethings that go through that as
like a B testing and whatsubject lines are, are creating
more opens and how many clicks,and so there's kind of a science
(34:52):
to that.
That's a totally differentprofile as well, totally.
And then and then from therethere's the actual product work.
How are they utilizing ourproduct?
You know, and ideally you havesome product data around like
how many, how often are theylogging in?
What pieces of the product arethey using and then working with
(35:16):
product to understand like,okay, we need a chat bot here
because people are getting stuck.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So yeah, so I identifying those key points
where, where customers are beingderailed.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, so there's, I mean, it's a, and that's what I
always say, this is what I loveabout customer success.
And we're just talking digital,you know, and, and there are so
many different pieces and thenthere, you know, beyond that,
there's implementation andwhatever.
So I love talking to my clientsabout how to build their teams,
because it's never a one sizefits all and that's the totally
(35:55):
like that is crazy.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Sorry to cut you off, I'm like crazy passionate about
that Because, like everybodynot everybody there's a lot of
people who think this digital CSthing is like this black box
you take this temp, you buy atemplate from somebody you
implemented into your Oregon,then you're done.
But that is totally not thecase, because there's an crazy
amount of variability that goesinto it, not only from a step,
(36:19):
from a data and a tooling and a.
You know who are your customers, who are your, you know
personas, what's your productlike.
The variables are just insane,and so every team has to look
different, otherwise you're notdoing it well.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Right, well said, yeah.
So what I typically do with myclients, just for CS teams in
general but this applies todigital CS specifically is first
analyzing what do you haveRight, like what systems do you,
what systems do you have inplace and who are the people and
(36:55):
what are their strengths.
And then where are the gaps andwhat are the main KPIs that
you're going for, like are youhaving a turn problem?
Are you having a productadoption problem?
And those will start to informyou of what it is that you
should be building.
And then that's the cool thingabout my job is that we kind of
(37:18):
have a hypothesis of what it isthat that we need.
And then I go out and I starttalking to the best of the best,
and then sometimes we realize,oh, we actually really need this
piece of it, this is thepriority.
Let's find someone who doesthis really well, and then we'll
(37:39):
start to fill in the otherthings.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, I don't want this to come across as a knock
against CSMs, because itdefinitely isn't, but to me I
think a well-staffed digital CSfunction or ops function is
filled with individuals who areprobably a lot more strategic
(38:07):
thinking and just kind of out ofthe box and creative than, say,
your average CSM, just becauseyou have to iterate a whole lot.
You got to figure stuff out asit, as kind of problems and
things come your way, and to dothat even you know you team.
(38:28):
You got to think on your onyour toes, think on your feet,
think on light on your feet,think on your toes, quick in the
head, I don't know.
You got to be able to reactquickly to a myriad of
situations with customers thatyou don't like.
You got to think strategicallyabout all of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, it's funny that I think the hard piece and this
is something that I used totalk a lot about with Roman, the
CEO of Gorgeous is, like youneed somebody that can go deep
into the data but then can alsopull out and see the strategy.
So how do you understandcustomer behaviors by looking at
(39:12):
numbers?
Not a lot of people can do thatand that's where, like, and
it's always so hard to hire forhis team because he always wants
people that, like are bad assetsequel.
And like most CSMs are not, sothat would be the first thing
that I would recommend forpeople who are looking to get it
more into.
Digital is like really brush upon your Excel skills, because
(39:37):
it's not about talking tocustomers.
And yeah, I mean it was alittle bit of a knock on CSMs.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'll say it's just different.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You know, it's a different skill set and I think
it's a totally different skillset.
And I mean I think there aredifferent skill sets for each.
I mean the, the scale CSM,that's maybe not doing the
automated engagements as much,or maybe they're like leaning on
the digital team to set thoseup.
You know the skills there are.
(40:12):
You know being really reallygood at time management and
being able to prioritize theirday really well because they're
talking to so many differentcustomers and understanding Okay
, is this noisy person actually?
Is that actually a fire or arethey just noisy?
And so that's a different skill.
And then on the enterpriseaccount manager side, I mean I
(40:37):
always think of my husband.
He's in sales at Salesforce buthe has two existing customers
that he's looking to expand andthe conversations that he he has
.
When I was in sales I was alwaysdoing SMB and I love those.
Like one call closes, gettingto know people.
Like in five minutes he'stalking to, I mean, 50 people on
the customer side and then he'salso managing a relationship
(40:59):
with Accenture and Bain and thenalso working with execs within
Salesforce and they all havedifferent priorities, they all
have like different sideconversations, and so that skill
is something that is unique toenterprise.
So it's, it's all strategic.
It's just what.
(41:20):
What type of strategic are you?
And that's that's what you know.
Building teams is all about islike, again, what do you love to
do and what are you good at?
And there's so many differentflavors and they're totally
different people.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah, absolutely Totally different and so kind of
shifting gears here from maybemore of a career perspective,
like again, like I said in theoutset, what I, what I loved
about our initial conversationswas that you were just very
focused on the individual.
(41:57):
You were, you listened, you,and then you know, you, you, you
were honest and you advised andyou're you're kind of a you
know very much kind of a partnerand a player coach in that way,
and so I would.
I would venture a guess thatyou are often in a position
where you're asked for advicefrom, like CSMs, or you know
(42:21):
you're, you're asked, you know,maybe career advice or how they
can get themselves, you knowposition themselves for their
next role and things like that.
And so I'm curious if there areany common threads, especially
right now that you advise a CSMon and in terms of their next
steps.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, there are two things.
So, for the person who is in arole that they like, but they
maybe want to get to the nextlevel, or they want to
specialize in a specific thingwithin CS or make a transition
(43:02):
into ops or whatever, the bestthing that you can do is take on
projects, take the initiative,think of ideas, find areas
within the company that can beimproved and then go to the
(43:28):
manager, to your manager, go tothe CEO, if it's small, and say
I think we need to do this andthis is how I think we should do
it.
Some of the best candidatesI've worked with and that end up
doing really cool things withtheir careers, it always started
with them taking the initiativeand finding inefficiencies and
(43:50):
then spearheading a project andmaybe getting funding for it and
then building a team and then,all of a sudden, you know you're
leading that team.
So I think that's a way toaccelerate your career, but also
a way to explore new things andfigure out what do you like to
do.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, and prove that you're already capable of doing
the gig.
Yeah, you put yourself in thatposition.
There's a I don't know ifyou've ever heard of it, but
there's a book that I love togive people who've asked me
these kinds of questions, calledOrbiting the Giant Hairball.
Have you heard about this book?
No, it's quite a few years oldnow, but it's a quick read.
(44:29):
It's a good read.
It's basically it's a guy thatwas kind of a hallmark lifer and
, if you know, hallmark andcorporate culture.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Like work there forever.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Like the corporate hallmark.
Yeah, and you know they weren'tnecessarily known for being a
great culture per se, but he, hedescribes how he was able to
build this certain program andthis certain thing that was a
need within the company, kind ofwithout asking for permission
(45:03):
to do it, and created this, hisown identity brand within the
company by building this thingand owning this thing, and so he
was able to basically orbit theGiant Hairball, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, I love that.
But that relates exactly to whatyou were saying, yeah, yeah,
and that's what I wouldrecommend for people that are
currently employed and then forpeople who are looking for a job
and maybe struggling to to getinterviews and and find that
(45:36):
next role.
The biggest thing is taking astep back and really figuring
out if you were a recruiter or ahiring manager and somebody
looked at your profile, whichones, which types of companies
would be like.
I got to hire this person Right.
So a lot of times, the easiestone to start with is industry.
(46:00):
So if you have insight into theway a certain customer works
whether it's you know dev teamsor HR, or maybe your company
sells a you know salesenablement platform who is the
end user that you're workingwith?
Because you know about thatindustry, you speak their lingo
(46:22):
and you know their priorities.
So right right off the bat, youhave a leg up over other
applicants and then look forcompanies that have that same
end user, and I always sendpeople to CrunchBase.
You can do a premium accountfor free trial that allows you
to use much more more filtersand then also be able to export
(46:44):
your results and then you cankind of do a backwards lookup
and you can even if you have abig spreadsheet and it's taking
too much time.
Like, go on Fiverr or what dothey call it, the one where you
hire people.
Yeah, I mean work or Fiverr youcan find somebody that'll, like
you know, for like five bucks anhour, we'll do a lot of the
(47:05):
data stuff for you and then findthose companies.
And for God's sake, do not justsend in your resume and then
like, call it a day, because,like recruiters, a lot of times
don't even look at resumes.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
So I was going to ask you this question because we're
in an age where you put up arole and two days later you have
a thousand applicants.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah and so and so, and I'm also a little bit biased
because one of my strengths issourcing Like I'm ruthlessly
protective over my time, superefficient with my searches, and
so I would prefer to spend timetalking to people that I know
are almost like a slam dunk thanlike talking to people that
(47:51):
just because they applied andare interested in, like, maybe
can fit.
So, excuse me.
So I especially don't likelooking through applicants, but
every client that I've workedwith and a lot of times I then
take over their applicant poolthere are so many that have been
sitting there for weeks andit's because it's just you just
(48:15):
don't want to do it, andespecially now when there are so
many, it kind of becomes awaste of time almost because
there are so many people thatapply that are completely
unqualified.
So if you find that companythat you are uniquely qualified
for find like sometimes it onthe job rec, it'll actually say
who posted it.
But you can pretty easily findout on LinkedIn who manages that
(48:38):
team or maybe there's aninternal recruiter send them a
real quick note on LinkedIn Likehey, just want to let you know
that I submitted my applicationfor this role.
I'm really interested in thiscompany because of XYZ and I
think I could be a good fitbecause of XYZ.
Like real short, let me know ifyou want to talk.
Thanks, don't worry about coverletters.
(48:59):
Cover letters a lot of timeslike it's just like people just
write a generic cover letter foreverybody and then like put in
the company.
That doesn't look good either,so that I guarantee, if you're
not doing that already and thenyou start taking that approach,
you're going to get way moreinterviews and you're going to
get farther along because you'regoing to be more qualified for
(49:20):
those positions.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, like get yourself in the system and then
go have the conversations withthe people that are making the
decision, or at least makeyourself known.
Do you?
Is video like loom an annoyancein that perspective?
Speaker 1 (49:43):
I don't know, I haven't.
Actually, when companies try todo sales pitches to me, I'm
seeing a lot of loom.
I haven't seen loom fromcandidates.
I imagine that will probablybecome more common.
It is nice because then you geta sense of their personality.
I'm sure, totally, I would sayit could go either way because,
(50:08):
especially in startups, foundersand founding teams can be a
little bit oh, we do this thisway.
They might not like it.
If you're applying to loom,absolutely create a loom.
If you're applying to someother media company, if it's a
(50:31):
high-tech company, maybe notJust to circle back.
One other thing we talked abouthow CSMs are so different.
A scale CSM is different than aenterprise account manager is
different than a digital CSperson.
Like I said, industry is theeasiest way to start your search
(50:52):
in figuring out who you shouldapply to or what company you
should apply to.
I think that actually thecompany size, the ACV, is even
more important, because that'sreally what drives the type of
profile and the skills requiredfor that role.
(51:16):
If you're working with SMBs,maybe you're working with
dentists, but there's thiscompany that sells to gyms or
something.
There's a strong correlationthere.
You're working with businessowners, small business owners.
That is another thing to keepin mind as well is who is that
(51:43):
customer?
Then, the third thing that wealways look for and again I work
with typically like series A,series B my CEOs and hiring
managers want people who haveworked in a similar stage as
well.
If you're at a series B company, another series B company is
(52:04):
going to be more likely to beinterested in working with you.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Absolutely Well.
Look, I've chewed up a lot ofyour time, but I've really
enjoyed the conversation.
As we kind of round thing, Ialways like to ask what's in
people's content, diet, what areyou paying attention to?
Books, podcasts, anything likethat?
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Well, it's a funny question, because I don't really
listen to podcasts.
I did listen to some of yourswhich I really liked, but I
don't.
From an educating myself oncustomer success perspective,
I'm so lucky because I'm talkingto the best people all day long
(52:49):
.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
That's how I'm going to answer A lot of it.
When you get to a certain stageand you're talking to certain
people, oftentimes the peoplethat you're talking to are the
experts.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
That's my content from a CS educational
perspective.
In my free time I'm readingmurder mysteries and listening
to music and stuff like that, orplaying Zelda, yeah, so I don't
spend a lot of time likePlaying Zelda.
Yeah, I love Zelda.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
New Zelda or old Zelda?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah Well, I started on N64 when I was in grade
school Ocarina of Time.
Then now I have Nintendo Switchand was playing Breath of the
Wild, and now I'm playing.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
Cheers to the.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
Kingdom, I think.
Anyway, whatever the ones areon Switch, it's amazing the
graphics, the music.
I love those open world gamesTotally.
You get lost sometimes.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, it's good stuff Totally.
I love hearing about what folksare kind of, because I think
honestly, yeah sure, we all readthe business book once in a
while and stuff like that and welisten to whatever and we read
whatever, but I think sometimeswhat really defines somebody and
(54:15):
what you learn, you learn a lotmore about from people, like
what they actually listen to orplay or do when they're not
working, which I think is reallycool yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
Awesome.
Well, alex, thank you so muchfor having me.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yeah, totally, it's been awesome and you're a real
human that I love talking withand sharing ideas with and I
appreciate what you're doingkind of with the podcast and
just in general, the support youprovide to the industry is
really cool.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah Well, I love it.
I'm sorry for my ugly cough.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah, yeah, I mean kids.
Kids are sick.
Thank you for joining me forthis episode of the Digital
Customer Success podcast.
If you like what we're doing,consider leaving us a review on
your podcast platform of choice.
It really helps us to grow andto provide value to a broader
audience.
You can view the DigitalCustomer Success definition word
(55:16):
map and get more details aboutthe show at
digitalcustomersuccesscom.
My name is Alex Turkovich.
Thanks again for joining andwe'll see you next time.
You need somebody that can go deep into the data
but then can also pull out andsee the strategy.
So how do you understandcustomer behaviors by looking at
numbers?
Not a lot of people can do thatand that's where like and it's
always so hard hard to hire forhis team, because he always
(00:23):
wants people that like are badasset sequel.
And like most CSMs are not, sothat would be the first thing
that I would recommend forpeople who are looking to get it
more into.
Digital is like really brush upon your Excel skills, because
it's not about talking tocustomers.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
And once again, welcome to the digital customer
success podcast with me, alexTrokovich.
So glad you could join us heretoday and every week as I seek
out and interview leaders andpractitioners who are innovating
and building great scaled CSprograms.
My goal is to share what I'velearned and to bring you along
with me for the ride so that youget the insights that you need
(01:03):
to build and evolve your owndigital CS program.
If you'd like more info, wantto get in touch or sign up for
the latest updates, go todigitalcustomersuccesscom.
For now, let's get started.
Greetings and welcome to thedigital customer success podcast
.
This is episode number 36.
(01:23):
It's actually an off cyclebonus episode for the week If
you are listening to it live,and I wanted to bring this
conversation to you soonerrather than later because it is
a bit of a timely one.
Today's guest is Sarah Robertsof Bayview Talent.
She is a she basically runs atalent staffing agency
(01:48):
recruiting agency that thatfocuses on building and scaling
customer success teams.
So she's super niche and has alot of great things to say about
that.
But the reason why I meanobviously the conversation is
timely is because we all knowwhat a tough market it is out
there there's lots of folkslooking for gigs and you know, I
(02:12):
mean, 23 was pretty rough ontech and customer success.
So Sarah shares some wonderfulinsights about the current job
market and just recruiting andCS in general.
But add to that there there,there is a mystique that
(02:35):
surrounds staffing a digitalcustomer success team or scaled
customer success team, in that,you know, a lot of folks seem to
think that they can just kindof throw junior CSMs into a
scale team, or they may notexactly know what type of talent
they need to really build out asolid digital team, and so
(02:59):
Sarah and I spend quite a bit oftime talking through you know
what kind of profiles you'relooking for when it comes to
building a digital team.
So a lot of very timely and alot of very important
information that I didn't wantto sit on and I wanted to
publish as soon as I could.
So please enjoy thisconversation with Sarah Roberts,
(03:20):
because I sure did.
What should we talk about?
Like actual stuff, or Sure?
Yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I don't know.
Yeah, I mean I'm this firsttime I've been on this side of
it.
I'm usually asking thequestions.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Right, I was.
I was subjected to thatexperience a couple of times in
the last few weeks and it's it'sa little bit different, it's a
different vibe, and I keptwanting to like take control of
this.
Yeah, but yeah, it's it, yeah,it's different, it's different,
but I'm really pleased to haveyou on the show.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited about it and I'm
curious to see how you do theintros because or the kind of
first part of the podcast,because I find that mine are
always like a little awkward,like it takes a minute to get
into it, you know, and like it'snever, not awkward.
Okay, it's always.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And like.
But, like, part of me is likewell, you know, that's this,
that's the stuff that makes itkind of human, you know, because
there's so many shows that youknow are somewhat scripted and I
don't want to, I don't want todo that, Let me don't play that.
Yeah, so, but look, I mean,what's funny is I was thinking a
little bit, you know, prior tothe show we actually first met I
(04:47):
don't know when it was, it wasa while ago because I mean,
you're, you're, yeah, I was likeI don't know, last year maybe,
Maybe I don't know, I think itwas before.
Yeah, so you, you know we hadtalked about a role and what I
loved about that.
You know there's recruiters youtalk to that are just kind of
(05:09):
like recruiters, and thenthere's recruiters you talk to
that are like awesome people andthat's what I gleaned from our
conversation because you werereal with me about it and it was
like, you know, you were realwith me and it and it, you know,
didn't work out for whateverreason, but you know it was.
It was cool because that leftan impression out.
(05:31):
When I saw you started yourpodcast, which is Success
Unscripted, which I love I'm ahuge fan of the show I was like,
oh, sarah Roberts, right,connect to the dots and it's
it's, it's cool that you're,you're doing it.
So congrats on the on the showas well.
So tell me a little bit aboutjust kind of what.
(05:51):
So, for those that don't know,right, baby, you talent is your
recruiting agency.
You focus primarily on kind ofbuilding CS teams and helping,
helping to grow CS teams alittle bit.
But give us a little bit of thegenesis of that.
Like what, what got you intothere and what, what kind of
niched you into CS?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's kind of an interestingstory.
I've never actually worked incustomer success.
I started my career actually inmarketing at the tech company.
I grew up in the Bay Area andthen, like, briefly, did a stint
at a recruiting agency and thenI got into sales and and and
(06:38):
the recruiting that I do isthere's a lot of sales.
To it, you know it's more salesHR.
I would say Absolutely yeah.
And I worked at Xenophants.
That was my first sales job andthey grew from 54 to 1100
employees in the year that I wasthere and in one year, yeah and
(07:00):
yeah, it was yeah.
It was like at the time, it wasthe fastest growing tech
company in the history ofSilicon Valley and and it was
great and I, you know, got toknow Parker when it was really
small.
I used to sit next to him andand then, you know, it grew and
grew and grew and I was doingvery well there.
One, I want to say it was likeOctober of 20, 20, 2015, 2014,.
(07:27):
Maybe I was 192 percent toquota, and so we're selling
these insurance plans.
Basically, you become thebroker of record.
And that's the way that you, theway that Xenophants at the time
, got their revenue, but thenwe're also having to get them
through open enrollment.
So it's October.
I have all these customers thatI've closed and then I'm also
(07:50):
doing so.
This is November.
Actually, I'm doing hour longback to back demos, eight of
them every single day couldnever get my inbox past or lower
than 50.
And while we had scaled thesales team, we didn't really
scale the post sales team and soit was usually took about six
(08:15):
weeks to get an implementationmanager assigned to an account,
and those implementationmanagers were the ones that
really set them up in the systembut also took them through open
enrollment and help them withtheir benefits plans.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So after eight hours of demos and trying to get
through my inbox, I'm alsohelping my customers that I've
already closed the month before.
Go through open enrollment andI'll never forget there was one
account in Texas I think theguy's name was Paris and it was.
It was a small account, it wasonly like five people, but he
was on United Health Care andbecause at the time we didn't
(08:54):
have territories, we wereselling across the country in
all at all, with all differentcarriers and they all have
different rules and UHC.
For some reason their openenrollment happens two months
before it normally happens andso we missed open enrollment and
he was so pissed, as he shouldhave been.
(09:14):
He was like my wife is pregnantand I probably would have
stayed on these plans, but Iwanted the opportunity to at
least see.
That kept me up at night.
It was just ridiculouslystressful.
But that was the first time Ireally started to understand the
(09:35):
importance of taking care ofyour customers once you sell
them.
I always became friends withthe implementation managers and
the CSMs and the accountmanagers and all that.
I was also really curious aboutthat handoff and the deal desk
stuff and sales force andwhatever.
That sparked my interest.
(09:55):
I then worked at a couple ofother startups and sales, then
got back into recruiting.
I was working for Hunter SFthey place investment
professionals at private equityand venture capital firms
primarily but I realized Iwanted to work with tech
companies again.
I had brought on a couple ofclients while I was there and
(10:21):
they encouraged that, but Idecided I wanted to start my own
thing.
So 2019, I founded Bayview and Iknew I wanted to have some sort
of specialty.
I knew I wanted to go to marketbecause that's what I know
marketing, sales, customersuccess.
I actually hired a guy to dosome market research and called
(10:42):
a bunch of different VCs.
We realized that nobody wasdoing customer success.
Nobody was focused on customersuccess.
You have Bets and Lions and allthese different companies that
are really focused on sales anddo a little bit of marketing,
but at the time there wasn't.
It was almost kind of a newthing.
It had been around for five, 10years.
(11:04):
People didn't understand it aswell as they do today, which is
not saying much.
I reached out to Parker.
This is when the Rippling hadjust raised a $45 million series
A.
They had one CSM but neededfive more.
(11:25):
So I found those five CSMswithin six weeks and then it
just snowballed from there.
Fast forward, I've placed over60 people at 15 different
startups, Just as a result ofhaving so many conversations
with candidates and hiringmanagers of what are you looking
(11:45):
for?
But then on the candidate side,what are you doing?
How are you building your teams?
What systems are you using?
What's worked?
What hasn't worked?
That's really been helped meget a really good understanding
of the market and also advise myclients on market compensation.
What should you actually belooking for in this role?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So it's been really fun.
That's so cool.
Yeah, I love that story and thegenus and kudos to you for
actually doing market researchto figure out where the need was
.
But I love that about you justasking the questions and getting
(12:26):
beyond.
This is the job description.
Go, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, Well, I mean I like to pose deals.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Well, I mean the reason why.
At first glance it may seem oddto the listener that we're
chatting on the podcast, butactually I'm crazy excited to
chat with you today, because Ithink that one of the major
questions that I get very, veryfrequently is okay, you've
(12:59):
decided to build a digitalfunction team and all that kind
of stuff.
Okay, how do we hire people forthis role?
What is this thing?
What does a scale team do, andwho do I need to run my digital
CS team and whatnot?
(13:20):
And it's a bit of a mystery outthere, and so I'm hoping,
through our conversation, thatwe can dispel the myths a little
bit, because there are somepretty unique approaches that
I've seen out there, but there'salso some standardization of
what it is that a lot of peopleare building with scale teams,
(13:41):
which I think is pretty cool.
So I guess let's start a littlebit from an industry state of
the industry kind of perspectiveright, especially from the
recruiting point of view,because it's no secret I mean
everybody's been talking aboutit it's rough out there.
(14:02):
There's lots of people lookingfor gigs, layoffs are still
happening and it's kind of diceyout there, and my heart
definitely goes out to folks whoare on the prowl and have been
affected, and so give us a sensefor where we are today.
(14:25):
This is January of 24, which isweird to say, but where are we
today?
Excuse me.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I have a two-year-old , so I may be coughing.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So if you had asked me that question a month ago, my
answer would be different,which is a good thing.
Last year was rough.
I mean, I'm used to literallyturning down clients because I
(14:59):
don't have enough bandwidth andgetting recommendations from
CEOs and BCs Because I alsotypically work with earlier
stage, so series A and prior tolast year, if you get a large
investment, you're makingpromises to the board that
(15:21):
you're going to accomplish allof these different things and so
growth is, and hiring the rightpeople quickly is absolutely
required in order to meet thosegoals, and so prior to last year
as a recruiter, it was awesomeand everybody was hiring.
(15:46):
They had the budget to pay forrecruiters, which I get paid a
percentage of a candidate'sfirst year's base salary, and
last year it was absolutelycrickets.
I had a couple of searches withmy client keeper in the
beginning of the year, and thenI worked with a bootstrapped
(16:07):
company for a little while thatI met when I was doing a keynote
in New York and we didn't endup finding the right person, but
other than that I basically mybusiness was non-existent
essentially, which you canimagine how that feels.
(16:32):
And I made the decision.
I'm not going to do businessdevelopment.
I'm not going to actively reachout to these companies because
they don't need me right now.
Conserving cash and extendingyour runway is the most
important thing for thesecompanies, not growth.
And so, even if they have openroles and companies were hiring,
they're not going to pay me 25%of a candidate's first year
(16:54):
base salary.
They're going to have a hiringmanager do that.
So it was pretty rough, butI'll tell you you're catching me
on a really good week.
Just brought on my first bigsearch in a year with my client,
gorgeous, who I placed like 30people there.
(17:15):
Just absolutely love workingwith them.
At least the VP of success wasepisode three, I think of.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Success.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Unscripted.
So helping them with thedirector of customer success
search, I might help them withanother one if this one
candidate doesn't work out, andthen also potentially ahead of
revenue, and then I have twoother clients that are waiting
in the wings as well.
So I've also been hearing, yeah, seeing on LinkedIn that you
(17:45):
know, I've been hearing otherrecruiters posting and
recruiters have had it reallyrough.
I mean, half of Sequoia'stalent team was laid off last
year and they're one of the topVCs.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Unreal.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I mean this just doesn't happen.
It's the worst recession thattech has been in since ever,
even 2008.
So, yeah, so it's, I mean it'sgood.
I think this year, you know,knock on wood, nothing crazy
happens globally.
I think things are going to bereally, really, really different
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, I love to hear that because obviously you know,
if recruiters are busier, thatmeans the job market is looking
more favorable, which is good.
Yeah, it's a good sign overall.
So I mean, look, you startedSuccess Unscripted.
You know a few months ago.
But engine, a big part of itwas out of just being sl-.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, having a lot of time on my hands.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Do some stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I'm sure that was part of it.
But also, you know what was theimpetus behind Success?
Unscripted.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah.
So by like I don't knowFebruary of last year, I
realized that it was going to beslow for a while and I actually
tried to start another business.
I mean there are so manybusinesses I've started that
(19:22):
have failed.
I mean I could mean them all.
But this one was called yeah, Imean yeah, if you're an
entrepreneur, that's just yeah,that's how it goes.
So I started this business, orhad the idea and went pretty
deep in it for a while calledRocket Launch, and the purpose
(19:45):
was, you know, I'm fascinated bywhat makes people thrive.
When I'm talking to an A playeror someone who has just
skyrocketed their career, whatis it about them?
And my belief is that it's.
Those are the people that areable to find roles that really
(20:09):
align with their passions andwhere they're excited to wake up
in the morning.
And none of us like everysingle aspect of our jobs, but
if you can get into that stateof flow, like 30% of the time,
you're gonna be far moresuccessful than doing something
that you don't enjoy.
So, taking that idea andthinking about our education
(20:32):
system and how, like when you'rea college senior and you go to
a job fair, it's like if youleave the job fair with a job,
it's like, yes, I did it, youknow like, I did it and that's
the goal, and there's no realconversation about okay, what do
these career paths look like?
What is you know, what's theday to day, what skills are
(20:58):
required, how much money do theymake?
And so I and I've talked aboutmental health a lot in my
podcast as well.
My goal was, or the thinking was, I could help college students
understand what their optionsare people a couple of years out
(21:19):
of college so that they couldpursue careers that are more in
line with what they love to doand what they're good at and
what they want to learn more of.
So I did a ton more marketresearch and I talked to a lot
of marketers.
I talked to a lot of peoplethat are in the education space.
I know the guy heading up CS atUSF spoke with.
(21:44):
He got me in touch with aprofessor and talked to a lot of
parents and a lot of studentsand what I discovered was the
problem existed, but it wasgoing to be really hard to
actually monetize this because,you know, college students are
very flaky and they have amillion things going on and they
(22:06):
just they're not going to sitdown and actually do that.
Most of them and their parentsaren't much easier to lock down
and I don't know if I would havereally actually enjoyed
creating the curriculum, becauseI kind of took a stab at it.
But what Success Unscripted isvery much a evolution of that,
(22:27):
because part of the course wasgoing to be bringing in people
that are inspiring to me andthat have had interesting
careers and asking them the samequestions that I'm asking on
the podcast, and so I actuallyfound this note in my Notion to
Do list that I wrote about ayear ago.
Like I need to start creatingcontent and interviewing people,
(22:48):
but like I wish I could justyou know, like I was so against
it because I'm not a contentperson, and then I just you know
, I'm just going to do it.
I'm just going to do it and Idid my first one and it's been
really interesting, and thefocus is, I always say, the what
(23:09):
is customer success, but thewhy is all that other stuff that
I'm talking about?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
and helping people really find their passion,
because I believe that, one, youcannot separate your mental
health from your work and, two,my experience of white knuckling
it through all of thesedifferent jobs is not uncommon
and so, yeah, so I Likeworkplace trauma is a real thing
(23:39):
, like it's not something thatis I think, more and more people
are talking about it now, whichis great, and especially, you
know, post pandemic and with allthe layoffs that have been
happening and all that kind ofstuff Like finally there is a
focus on mental health andworkplace trauma.
But I mean you know the I meanhonestly, the couple of decades
(24:04):
I spent just like grinning andbearing stuff.
I mean the circles in my eyesare direct results of that and
many people.
I mean it's like it's a realthing and so you know, I love
that you're highlighting thosethings.
And I wanna go back to one thingthat you said just earlier
(24:25):
around our education, you knowsystem, around jobs and careers.
It's so messed up.
I mean I remember this is I'man old fart, so, like I remember
eons ago, when I was like inhigh school, they did these
tests and the tests, like youknow, like scored you on what
(24:45):
you were good at in school andstuff like that, and they said,
oh, you might be good at thisand you might be good at had no
kind of room for what do youlike to do?
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know what are the things that, like, you get up
in the morning.
If you didn't have school orwork, what would you be doing?
You know and like what excitesyou and there's like no
conversation about that and Ithink even to this day it's like
, it's like you're expected togo to, you know, high school and
then I don't know, college isstarting to differ these days,
(25:19):
but you know, like you go tocollege and then you know what
it is you do, when in reality,like you could figure that out
probably way sooner.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's I mean, that's reallythe goal and it's been I even
after the second.
So the second episode, that'sthe one with Nicky, where I also
drank some wine.
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
It was a good one.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, it was a good one.
But we both really talked aboutsome hard times in our lives
and you know suicidal ideationand I mean it really went there.
And this is my second episodeand a guy reached out to me on
LinkedIn and just thanked me forsharing and for naming what it
(26:18):
is that he's going through andalso, you know, kind of lifting
that burden a little bit,because I think sharing and
knowing that you're not aloneand that it's okay to go through
those hard times and they willpass.
I always said if I can help oneperson with the podcast, then
I've done my job.
And so it's been.
(26:41):
Yeah, it's been really, reallyfun.
I just released the fifthepisode today, so we'll see.
But, like you said, I mean, andthank you for reaching out
after the first couple episodes,I know you said in an email,
like it's really hard, like thevulnerability required to create
(27:02):
a podcast and then put it outinto the universe.
And people are watching itwhenever you know you don't know
who's watching it when they'rewatching it, what they're
thinking, what they're saying toother people.
It's really, really scary and Ithere were many times where I
almost just scrapped the wholething after I had several
episodes recorded.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it's a vulnerable thingand you end up saying stupid
shit and it's like yeah, okaywell, okay, you almost have to
at least my experience of thewhole thing is like you almost
have to separate yourself alittle bit and just go.
Yeah, okay, I'm going to bevulnerable for this hour and
(27:45):
then the next hour it takes toedit it and then put it out
there and forget about it.
But yeah, it's, it's hard, yeah.
So kudos to you for ripping offthe bandaid.
Likewise, yeah, I do, I do wantto, you know.
Okay, subject at hand, though, Ido want to spend a little bit
of time talking about CS andspecifically like building and
(28:11):
scaling digital teams, becauseI'm just going to start with the
assumption that a lot of CSleaders, when they go to start a
scale team which is, I love howyou set up straight we got to
talking about serious stuff.
That was funny.
But you know, the assumptionthat a lot of CS leaders make
(28:34):
when they go teams is like, oh,we're just going to stick our
junior CSMs into this thingcalled scaled and just kind of
work on that or do that, or youknow whatever, and it's it's.
I think, time and time again,it's been proven to not be the
correct approach, and we can diginto what those.
You know what that is.
But I think, fundamentally,like the skill set needed to be
(28:59):
part of a digital team and partof a scale team, which are two
different things, I would sayare are, I think, vastly
different than what your typicalCSM you know role would be yes.
Wouldn't you say so?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Well, it's certainly different than, like an
enterprise, customer successmotion the traditional high
touch, working with 10 customersor less, working with multiple
stakeholders and getting thatinformation from the customer,
from conversations, yes.
So I think digital, the smaller, the more digital and just the
(29:39):
overall CS strategy start tomeld in one of the one in the
same.
But I do think that the, thescale motions and the digital CS
strategies that you put inplace can also aid those
enterprise accounts as well.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Totally, yeah, totally.
I mean, you know, I see, I seekind of a trend emerging and I'm
curious if to know if you'veseen the same thing with your
clients, which is to say that ifyou're going to go scale CS,
there's kind of like two things,two parts of the recipe from a
staffing perspective.
(30:20):
One is kind of like this opsthing, where you've got some
people plugged in to build stuff, to do the data analysis, to do
the automations to build.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then you know you've got ascale team which essentially
might be a pooled team, might beregional, specific people who
(30:43):
are then taking thoseautomations, reacting to
triggers, you know, respondingto things and whatnot, and and
but.
But are you seeing the samekind of trend of those, those
two kind of main things, as partof a digital strategy?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, and I I mean I don't know if I would.
I think that's absolutely right.
Yes, the ops and then the scalefunction and and in your
definition the scale is likeactually those, those CSMs that
are working with those largerpool of customers, or sometimes
there will be multiple CSMsworking with you know, 10,000
(31:21):
customers in a shared inbox orsomething.
Yeah, right, but I think, for me, digital customer success and I
know you ask all of your, yourguest this, but digital CS is
really about helping yourcustomers achieve their goals
(31:42):
using technology and not thehuman intervention and their
partner together.
I think any any good digital orany good CS program is going to
have a little bit of both andknow when to use the technology
and when to use the humanintervention, but really needing
customers where they are, andcustomers don't always want to
(32:04):
pick up the phone, right?
So if they have a question, howare they going to answer it
themselves?
It could be a chat bot, itcould be through email, it could
be through self-serve resourcescontent on the website.
So there's that like self-helppiece, that that digital can can
(32:26):
, really that, that digital canpioneer, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
And so.
But then there's also the, thatidea of like customer successes
, about figuring out who yourmost successful customers are,
the ones that are getting themost ROI, utilizing it the most
and use it, utilizing it in themost effective way.
So understanding who thosecustomers are and then creating
(33:00):
triggers and and incentivize andencourage encouraging behaviors
that will make other customersact more like those successful
customers.
And so that's also a big pieceof digital is what is the
customer journey?
What are those, what are thosemajor milestones that the
(33:24):
successful customers are hittingand how do we get others to do
that?
And there may be multiplecustomer journeys and different
segmentations based on productor size or whatever.
But that piece of digital isalmost more like marketing.
So when I think of digital,there's yes, there's the,
(33:45):
there's the more ops, like Ioften pull people from, like
consulting or like a sticks fixor Walmart actually has a lot of
people that do a lot of thisreally, really advanced kind of
ops, digital CS.
They typically know SQL, theytypically.
So SQL is more for like pullingand analyzing the data, and
(34:09):
then Python can help buildcustom automations.
So that's the ops piece, andthen you have more of a content
writer right, which is almostmore like marketing.
That does the customereducation and the self serve
(34:29):
portal.
Then you also have people thaton that marketing side are
understanding how to how tobuild marketing campaigns for
the existing customers.
And then there's all thosethings that go through that as
like a B testing and whatsubject lines are, are creating
more opens and how many clicks,and so there's kind of a science
(34:52):
to that.
That's a totally differentprofile as well, totally.
And then and then from therethere's the actual product work.
How are they utilizing ourproduct?
You know, and ideally you havesome product data around like
how many, how often are theylogging in?
What pieces of the product arethey using and then working with
(35:16):
product to understand like,okay, we need a chat bot here
because people are getting stuck.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So yeah, so I identifying those key points
where, where customers are beingderailed.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, so there's, I mean, it's a, and that's what I
always say, this is what I loveabout customer success.
And we're just talking digital,you know, and, and there are so
many different pieces and thenthere, you know, beyond that,
there's implementation andwhatever.
So I love talking to my clientsabout how to build their teams,
because it's never a one sizefits all and that's the totally
(35:55):
like that is crazy.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Sorry to cut you off, I'm like crazy passionate about
that Because, like everybodynot everybody there's a lot of
people who think this digital CSthing is like this black box
you take this temp, you buy atemplate from somebody you
implemented into your Oregon,then you're done.
But that is totally not thecase, because there's an crazy
amount of variability that goesinto it, not only from a step,
(36:19):
from a data and a tooling and a.
You know who are your customers, who are your, you know
personas, what's your productlike.
The variables are just insane,and so every team has to look
different, otherwise you're notdoing it well.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Right, well said, yeah.
So what I typically do with myclients, just for CS teams in
general but this applies todigital CS specifically is first
analyzing what do you haveRight, like what systems do you,
what systems do you have inplace and who are the people and
(36:55):
what are their strengths.
And then where are the gaps andwhat are the main KPIs that
you're going for, like are youhaving a turn problem?
Are you having a productadoption problem?
And those will start to informyou of what it is that you
should be building.
And then that's the cool thingabout my job is that we kind of
(37:18):
have a hypothesis of what it isthat that we need.
And then I go out and I starttalking to the best of the best,
and then sometimes we realize,oh, we actually really need this
piece of it, this is thepriority.
Let's find someone who doesthis really well, and then we'll
(37:39):
start to fill in the otherthings.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, I don't want this to come across as a knock
against CSMs, because itdefinitely isn't, but to me I
think a well-staffed digital CSfunction or ops function is
filled with individuals who areprobably a lot more strategic
(38:07):
thinking and just kind of out ofthe box and creative than, say,
your average CSM, just becauseyou have to iterate a whole lot.
You got to figure stuff out asit, as kind of problems and
things come your way, and to dothat even you know you team.
(38:28):
You got to think on your onyour toes, think on your feet,
think on light on your feet,think on your toes, quick in the
head, I don't know.
You got to be able to reactquickly to a myriad of
situations with customers thatyou don't like.
You got to think strategicallyabout all of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, it's funny that I think the hard piece and this
is something that I used totalk a lot about with Roman, the
CEO of Gorgeous is, like youneed somebody that can go deep
into the data but then can alsopull out and see the strategy.
So how do you understandcustomer behaviors by looking at
(39:12):
numbers?
Not a lot of people can do thatand that's where, like, and
it's always so hard to hire forhis team because he always wants
people that, like are bad assetsequel.
And like most CSMs are not, sothat would be the first thing
that I would recommend forpeople who are looking to get it
more into.
Digital is like really brush upon your Excel skills, because
(39:37):
it's not about talking tocustomers.
And yeah, I mean it was alittle bit of a knock on CSMs.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'll say it's just different.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You know, it's a different skill set and I think
it's a totally different skillset.
And I mean I think there aredifferent skill sets for each.
I mean the, the scale CSM,that's maybe not doing the
automated engagements as much,or maybe they're like leaning on
the digital team to set thoseup.
You know the skills there are.
(40:12):
You know being really reallygood at time management and
being able to prioritize theirday really well because they're
talking to so many differentcustomers and understanding Okay
, is this noisy person actually?
Is that actually a fire or arethey just noisy?
And so that's a different skill.
And then on the enterpriseaccount manager side, I mean I
(40:37):
always think of my husband.
He's in sales at Salesforce buthe has two existing customers
that he's looking to expand andthe conversations that he he has
.
When I was in sales I was alwaysdoing SMB and I love those.
Like one call closes, gettingto know people.
Like in five minutes he'stalking to, I mean, 50 people on
the customer side and then he'salso managing a relationship
(40:59):
with Accenture and Bain and thenalso working with execs within
Salesforce and they all havedifferent priorities, they all
have like different sideconversations, and so that skill
is something that is unique toenterprise.
So it's, it's all strategic.
It's just what.
(41:20):
What type of strategic are you?
And that's that's what you know.
Building teams is all about islike, again, what do you love to
do and what are you good at?
And there's so many differentflavors and they're totally
different people.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah, absolutely Totally different and so kind of
shifting gears here from maybemore of a career perspective,
like again, like I said in theoutset, what I, what I loved
about our initial conversationswas that you were just very
focused on the individual.
(41:57):
You were, you listened, you,and then you know, you, you, you
were honest and you advised andyou're you're kind of a you
know very much kind of a partnerand a player coach in that way,
and so I would.
I would venture a guess thatyou are often in a position
where you're asked for advicefrom, like CSMs, or you know
(42:21):
you're, you're asked, you know,maybe career advice or how they
can get themselves, you knowposition themselves for their
next role and things like that.
And so I'm curious if there areany common threads, especially
right now that you advise a CSMon and in terms of their next
steps.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, there are two things.
So, for the person who is in arole that they like, but they
maybe want to get to the nextlevel, or they want to
specialize in a specific thingwithin CS or make a transition
(43:02):
into ops or whatever, the bestthing that you can do is take on
projects, take the initiative,think of ideas, find areas
within the company that can beimproved and then go to the
(43:28):
manager, to your manager, go tothe CEO, if it's small, and say
I think we need to do this andthis is how I think we should do
it.
Some of the best candidatesI've worked with and that end up
doing really cool things withtheir careers, it always started
with them taking the initiativeand finding inefficiencies and
(43:50):
then spearheading a project andmaybe getting funding for it and
then building a team and then,all of a sudden, you know you're
leading that team.
So I think that's a way toaccelerate your career, but also
a way to explore new things andfigure out what do you like to
do.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, and prove that you're already capable of doing
the gig.
Yeah, you put yourself in thatposition.
There's a I don't know ifyou've ever heard of it, but
there's a book that I love togive people who've asked me
these kinds of questions, calledOrbiting the Giant Hairball.
Have you heard about this book?
No, it's quite a few years oldnow, but it's a quick read.
(44:29):
It's a good read.
It's basically it's a guy thatwas kind of a hallmark lifer and
, if you know, hallmark andcorporate culture.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Like work there forever.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Like the corporate hallmark.
Yeah, and you know they weren'tnecessarily known for being a
great culture per se, but he, hedescribes how he was able to
build this certain program andthis certain thing that was a
need within the company, kind ofwithout asking for permission
(45:03):
to do it, and created this, hisown identity brand within the
company by building this thingand owning this thing, and so he
was able to basically orbit theGiant Hairball, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, I love that.
But that relates exactly to whatyou were saying, yeah, yeah,
and that's what I wouldrecommend for people that are
currently employed and then forpeople who are looking for a job
and maybe struggling to to getinterviews and and find that
(45:36):
next role.
The biggest thing is taking astep back and really figuring
out if you were a recruiter or ahiring manager and somebody
looked at your profile, whichones, which types of companies
would be like.
I got to hire this person Right.
So a lot of times, the easiestone to start with is industry.
(46:00):
So if you have insight into theway a certain customer works
whether it's you know dev teamsor HR, or maybe your company
sells a you know salesenablement platform who is the
end user that you're workingwith?
Because you know about thatindustry, you speak their lingo
(46:22):
and you know their priorities.
So right right off the bat, youhave a leg up over other
applicants and then look forcompanies that have that same
end user, and I always sendpeople to CrunchBase.
You can do a premium accountfor free trial that allows you
to use much more more filtersand then also be able to export
(46:44):
your results and then you cankind of do a backwards lookup
and you can even if you have abig spreadsheet and it's taking
too much time.
Like, go on Fiverr or what dothey call it, the one where you
hire people.
Yeah, I mean work or Fiverr youcan find somebody that'll, like
you know, for like five bucks anhour, we'll do a lot of the
(47:05):
data stuff for you and then findthose companies.
And for God's sake, do not justsend in your resume and then
like, call it a day, because,like recruiters, a lot of times
don't even look at resumes.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
So I was going to ask you this question because we're
in an age where you put up arole and two days later you have
a thousand applicants.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah and so and so, and I'm also a little bit biased
because one of my strengths issourcing Like I'm ruthlessly
protective over my time, superefficient with my searches, and
so I would prefer to spend timetalking to people that I know
are almost like a slam dunk thanlike talking to people that
(47:51):
just because they applied andare interested in, like, maybe
can fit.
So, excuse me.
So I especially don't likelooking through applicants, but
every client that I've workedwith and a lot of times I then
take over their applicant poolthere are so many that have been
sitting there for weeks andit's because it's just you just
(48:15):
don't want to do it, andespecially now when there are so
many, it kind of becomes awaste of time almost because
there are so many people thatapply that are completely
unqualified.
So if you find that companythat you are uniquely qualified
for find like sometimes it onthe job rec, it'll actually say
who posted it.
But you can pretty easily findout on LinkedIn who manages that
(48:38):
team or maybe there's aninternal recruiter send them a
real quick note on LinkedIn Likehey, just want to let you know
that I submitted my applicationfor this role.
I'm really interested in thiscompany because of XYZ and I
think I could be a good fitbecause of XYZ.
Like real short, let me know ifyou want to talk.
Thanks, don't worry about coverletters.
(48:59):
Cover letters a lot of timeslike it's just like people just
write a generic cover letter foreverybody and then like put in
the company.
That doesn't look good either,so that I guarantee, if you're
not doing that already and thenyou start taking that approach,
you're going to get way moreinterviews and you're going to
get farther along because you'regoing to be more qualified for
(49:20):
those positions.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, like get yourself in the system and then
go have the conversations withthe people that are making the
decision, or at least makeyourself known.
Do you?
Is video like loom an annoyancein that perspective?
Speaker 1 (49:43):
I don't know, I haven't.
Actually, when companies try todo sales pitches to me, I'm
seeing a lot of loom.
I haven't seen loom fromcandidates.
I imagine that will probablybecome more common.
It is nice because then you geta sense of their personality.
I'm sure, totally, I would sayit could go either way because,
(50:08):
especially in startups, foundersand founding teams can be a
little bit oh, we do this thisway.
They might not like it.
If you're applying to loom,absolutely create a loom.
If you're applying to someother media company, if it's a
(50:31):
high-tech company, maybe notJust to circle back.
One other thing we talked abouthow CSMs are so different.
A scale CSM is different than aenterprise account manager is
different than a digital CSperson.
Like I said, industry is theeasiest way to start your search
(50:52):
in figuring out who you shouldapply to or what company you
should apply to.
I think that actually thecompany size, the ACV, is even
more important, because that'sreally what drives the type of
profile and the skills requiredfor that role.
(51:16):
If you're working with SMBs,maybe you're working with
dentists, but there's thiscompany that sells to gyms or
something.
There's a strong correlationthere.
You're working with businessowners, small business owners.
That is another thing to keepin mind as well is who is that
(51:43):
customer?
Then, the third thing that wealways look for and again I work
with typically like series A,series B my CEOs and hiring
managers want people who haveworked in a similar stage as
well.
If you're at a series B company, another series B company is
(52:04):
going to be more likely to beinterested in working with you.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Absolutely Well.
Look, I've chewed up a lot ofyour time, but I've really
enjoyed the conversation.
As we kind of round thing, Ialways like to ask what's in
people's content, diet, what areyou paying attention to?
Books, podcasts, anything likethat?
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Well, it's a funny question, because I don't really
listen to podcasts.
I did listen to some of yourswhich I really liked, but I
don't.
From an educating myself oncustomer success perspective,
I'm so lucky because I'm talkingto the best people all day long
(52:49):
.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
That's how I'm going to answer A lot of it.
When you get to a certain stageand you're talking to certain
people, oftentimes the peoplethat you're talking to are the
experts.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
That's my content from a CS educational
perspective.
In my free time I'm readingmurder mysteries and listening
to music and stuff like that, orplaying Zelda, yeah, so I don't
spend a lot of time likePlaying Zelda.
Yeah, I love Zelda.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
New Zelda or old Zelda?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah Well, I started on N64 when I was in grade
school Ocarina of Time.
Then now I have Nintendo Switchand was playing Breath of the
Wild, and now I'm playing.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
Cheers to the.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
Kingdom, I think.
Anyway, whatever the ones areon Switch, it's amazing the
graphics, the music.
I love those open world gamesTotally.
You get lost sometimes.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, it's good stuff Totally.
I love hearing about what folksare kind of, because I think
honestly, yeah sure, we all readthe business book once in a
while and stuff like that and welisten to whatever and we read
whatever, but I think sometimeswhat really defines somebody and
(54:15):
what you learn, you learn a lotmore about from people, like
what they actually listen to orplay or do when they're not
working, which I think is reallycool yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
Awesome.
Well, alex, thank you so muchfor having me.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yeah, totally, it's been awesome and you're a real
human that I love talking withand sharing ideas with and I
appreciate what you're doingkind of with the podcast and
just in general, the support youprovide to the industry is
really cool.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah Well, I love it.
I'm sorry for my ugly cough.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah, yeah, I mean kids.
Kids are sick.
Thank you for joining me forthis episode of the Digital
Customer Success podcast.
If you like what we're doing,consider leaving us a review on
your podcast platform of choice.
It really helps us to grow andto provide value to a broader
audience.
You can view the DigitalCustomer Success definition word
(55:16):
map and get more details aboutthe show at
digitalcustomersuccesscom.
My name is Alex Turkovich.
Thanks again for joining andwe'll see you next time.
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