October 23, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode of The Digital Marketing Mentor, Danny talks with Mordy Oberstein, Head of Brand SEO at Wix, about his unique career path from teaching to SEO expertise. Mordy discusses the importance of mentorship and education, Wix's SEO transformation, and the impact of brand identity on search rankings. He also shares insights on balancing brand building with performance marketing, along with personal stories like his love for the Yankees and ground coffee.
Episode Highlights:
- Mordy views mentorship as a deep interpersonal relationship, where mentors guide by sharing life experiences rather than just teaching skills. Key traits of a mentor include forgiveness, effective communication, and having a clear vision.
- Mordy says it was community engagement, product improvements, and strategic rebranding efforts that helped propel Wix into an SEO leader in the industry.
- Mordy emphasized the growing importance of brand marketing in SEO, arguing that brand identity, recognition, and reputation can significantly boost search engine rankings and long-term success.
- Mordy explained the tension between performance marketing, which seeks immediate results, and brand marketing, which focuses on long-term relationship building. He stressed the need for businesses to balance both approaches for sustainable growth.
Episode Links:
- Mordy’s LinkedIn
- Mordy’s X
- Mordy’s podcast, the SEO Rant
Follow The Digital Marketing Mentor:
- Website and Blog: thedmmentor.com
- Instagram: @thedmmentor
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Interested in Digital Marketing Services, Careers, or Courses? Check out more from the TDMM Family:
- Optidge.com - Full Service Digital Marketing Agency specializing in SEO, PPC, Paid Social, and Lead Generation efforts for established B2C and B2B businesses and organizations.
- ODEOacademy.com - Digital Marketing online education and course platform. ODEO gives you solid digital marketing knowledge to launch/boost your career or understand your business’s digital marketing strategy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Gavin (00:05):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
This episode is brought to youby Odeo Academy.
(00:38):
Get ready to get human podcastand claim $150 off Odeo's
Digital Fundamentals careercourse by entering the code
mentor at checkout.
Check it out at OdeoAcademycomthat's O-D-E-O Academycom.
Forward slash podcast and get$150 off with code mentor.
Hello, I'm Danny Gavin, founderof Optige, marketing Professor
and the host of the DigitalMarketing Mentor.
(00:59):
Today we have a very specialguest, morty Oberstein, head of
brand SEO at Wix, anIsraeli-based free,
user-friendly website buildingplatform.
That's also great for SEO.
Morty transitioned from being aBaltimore public school teacher
to a passionate SEO expert.
He's worked at SEMrush,rankranger and now Wix in two
different roles.
Besides his SEO work, morty'san avid podcaster, hosting the
SEO Rant, and he currently holdsthe record for creating,
(01:21):
hosting and contributing to themore podcasts than anyone else
on this planet.
So much so he's going to be onanother one right after this.
He's also a prolific writer forpublications such as Sunrush,
search Engine Land, searchEngine Journal, moz, deep Crawl
and many more.
Welcome Morty, how are you?
(01:42):
Great, you know when you put itthat way, I went from optimizing
other people's children tooptimizing websites.
Mordy Oberstein (01:45):
That's a cool way to look at it.
Yeah, I would just change theirtitle tag so they'd rank better
, that's all.
Danny Gavin (01:49):
I hope you had permission from the parents to
do that.
Mordy Oberstein (01:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had to get a whole
sign-off.
Before you touch on people'scontent, you have to really
change it.
You have to get permission.
Danny Gavin (01:58):
Well, today we're going to talk about the
intersection of brand and SEO,and how brand development leads
to growth and a whole bunch ofother cool things.
So let's start off with whereyou went to school and what you
studied.
Mordy Oberstein (02:08):
I went to Truro for my undergrad.
I was going to be I was ahistory major originally, which
is completely useless.
Danny Gavin (02:17):
So where did that come from?
Mordy Oberstein (02:17):
Where did that come from?
I like history.
I like history, yeah, and itseemed easy.
And they told me a week beforeI was supposed to graduate, or
something like that, like, oh,we screwed up.
They didn't say we screwed up.
They said you screwed up.
They screwed up and you don'thave enough credits for a
history major.
I'm like, well, I have to comeback for another semester.
They said, well, you could dothat, or you can get an
interdisciplinary degree and bedone.
(02:39):
Now I'm like, let's do that.
So I have the one thing that'seven more worthless than a
history degree, which is aninterdisciplinary degree.
I don't know what that means,but then I also have a master's
in education from Johns Hopkins,which is a real school and a
real degree, as opposed to thelast one.
Danny Gavin (02:52):
I knew you were in education, so is that something
that you went in to get rightaway, or was that after you
already started teaching?
Mordy Oberstein (03:01):
I'm like in my fourth career already.
I'm like a cat.
I have like nine careers SinceI was 18, I was working no
earlier, even whatever, itdoesn't matter.
I was working for a propertymanagement company in New York.
I was there for almost likenine years, something like that.
I was the COO of the company atone point, which is ridiculous.
It was around the time of the.
I'm also old.
At this point I'm dating myselfthe crash in 2008.
(03:22):
A year or two after that wasburned out, the real estate
market was a ginormous disaster.
I always wanted to teach and Isaid I'm just going to do it,
I'm going to go for it.
And I went and did Teach forAmerica, where they kind of like
throw you into the classroom,into underprivileged school
districts this one in Baltimoreand you go for your master's at
the same time.
So that's how.
That's how that happened.
Danny Gavin (03:42):
That's cool.
So you got a two for one, yeah.
So when you look back atuniversity, whether it's your
undergrad or masters, are thereany experiences both inside and
outside the classroom that wereimpactful in directing your path
?
Mordy Oberstein (03:52):
Yeah, you know, I think it all depends on the,
on the teacher.
I mean, you're your professor,right?
You?
You know this.
There was one professor.
I had her multiple times ingrad school.
Undergrad was I went to nightschool, I was just trying to get
through and like whatever, butfor grad school that was
actually meaningful for me and Ihad this professor and I don't
know if I can point back and saylike, oh, she taught me this
(04:14):
and that one thing changed myoutlook or my practice or
whatever.
But all those small littlemicro moments that sort of
compounded over the manysemesters that I had her, was
definitely influential how Ilooked at teaching, how I looked
at education, how I looked atit as a practitioner in the
classroom, a million percent.
That one person just sticks outabove all else because of who
(04:37):
she was and how she went aboutthings.
Again, not the big things, allthe little things that she did.
Danny Gavin (04:42):
Not everyone is lucky to have someone like that
when they go through school.
Mordy Oberstein (04:49):
No, I was very fortunate, morty.
How would you define a mentor?
Thanks for asking me an easyquestion.
How would define a mentor?
I mean, I'll say it's someonewho guides you, but like, I
don't think that's really whatwe mean.
I think I don't think it's autilitarian sort of thing.
Like, oh, I need a mentor toteach me to.
You know, I'm a, I'm, I want tobe a blacksmith, so I'm going
to go for an apprenticeship andthat's how you say that word and
to learn how to be a blacksmith.
Like that's just someone justshowing you how to do something.
(05:12):
I don't think that's what amentor is.
A mentor really is a it's I'llsay this as a former teacher
there's only one otherrelationship and as a parent,
where, where the dynamic is sodeep that it's almost like a
parent and child, and that's astudent and a teacher, and
that's because it's not apractical thing.
When you're sharing knowledgein a real way, you're sharing
(05:33):
yourself, right?
You're sharing your experiences.
It's E-A-T, it's the E forexperience.
You're really trying to showyour experience around something
and how you've experienced itand the problems that you felt
and dealt with along the way, soas to prevent that person from
going through those problems andthose hardships.
So it's really a much deepersort of existential kind of
relationship.
It's not like I will show youhow to do X.
(05:54):
That's not a mentor.
Mentor is really someone who'sguiding you through the crises
that you might have or thedifficulties and the struggles
that you're going to have, sothat you can develop not just a
skill but you can develop as aperson in the context of
whatever it is you're trying tolearn.
Danny Gavin (06:11):
I love that and I love how you build it up from
being a teacher, Because in asense a mentor is a teacher but,
like you said, it's not aboutteaching a skill per se, but
it's more about transferringover that experience.
So we spoke a little bit before, but what are the most
essential traits of a mentor?
Mordy Oberstein (06:26):
As someone who's screwed up many, many
times.
This is why I listen to this.
But at my kids' bar mitzvah Isaid this to them.
I have twin boys who arerecently bar mitzvahed.
I'm like you need to forgiveyourself.
Like you're going to, life isgoing to throw curve balls at
you sliders, sweepers, knucklecurve balls, all kinds of
breaking balls and you're goingto miss and you need to just
(06:47):
forgive yourself and move on.
And it's the same thing foryourself, but also for a mentor.
If you have someone under yourtutelage, they're not going to
get it right.
You would do it this way andthey ended up doing it that way
and you sort of have to let thatperson A make the mistakes and
forgive them.
But also, when I say forgive,it also means kind of carve out
their own path.
(07:07):
At the same time, in my mindsort of like the same thing.
I'll think back.
I was a mentor, I was a fourthgrade teacher.
But those kids would mess upall the time and they're fourth
graders, so obviously you let itslide.
They're nine years old, whatare they supposed to do?
But it's a mentality you could.
You could hold them to the, youknow, be a stickler and hold
(07:29):
them to the nth degree oneverything.
But to be a good mentor youreally have to have that slack.
When I say forgiveness, I meangiving them slack.
Danny Gavin (07:36):
Number two you mentioned was communication.
Mordy Oberstein (07:38):
Yeah, so obviously, if you're going to be
a mentor, you can't communicate.
You can't be an effectivementor.
Like it's just, like it's not.
You might have the best ofintentions, you might be the
greatest forgiver on the entireplanet, because you'll be doing
a lot of forgiving, because noone's going to know what the
heck you actually want and whatyou actually mean.
They won't be able to.
You won't be able to beeffectively transmitting all of
your experience and knowledgeand know-how to that person.
(07:59):
It's just.
I almost feel guilty sayingthat as a trait, because it is
the thing You're a mentor.
You are communicating.
Danny Gavin (08:08):
You've dealt with a lot of people throughout all
your businesses and areas ofwork.
Do you feel like communicationis something that people are
able to learn, or is it more ofa trait where it's just you're
naturally a good communicator.
Mordy Oberstein (08:19):
I think it's like anything If you're not good
at it, you can improve at it.
But I think it's an art.
I think if you are a goodcommunicator, that is something
that's not taught.
That's probably taught fromyour childhood.
The context of how you grew upand the situation of what you
needed to do as a kid isprobably what makes you a good
or not good communicator.
(08:40):
Now I know that's kind of likea Freudian hot take for you?
Danny Gavin (08:43):
No, I believe it.
So, you know, I've got a coupleof kids, and my youngest, my
daughter, you know, she's justso good at communicating, like
when she feels sad she says whyright?
And my other kids, you know,you, just, you see them in a bad
mood or whatever, and it's like, you know, just let me know
what's wrong.
So I see it, I see it in thekids.
So that makes sense.
Mordy Oberstein (09:01):
I mean, if you're not a good communicator,
I'm not saying there's a hopefor you.
There's hope but not so muchhope, just a little bit of hope.
Danny Gavin (09:09):
That's all you need , all right.
And then finally, vision.
Mordy Oberstein (09:11):
Think of a manager that you had that was
really good versus one that wasreally bad.
It's probably because thatperson had a vision, because
you're following them as amentor.
You're a leader.
If you don't have vision, whereare we going?
What are we doing?
Why are we doing this?
What's the plan?
Where are we going to end up?
Why is this meaningful If youdon't have that and then you're
asking somebody to follow you?
(09:31):
Impossible, it's just notpossible.
Vision is, I think,under-discussed, underrated and
underutilized.
Danny Gavin (09:39):
So Morty, who has been some of your most
influential mentors?
Oh man, now you're like puttingme on a hot.
On the hot, I'll drop a quickhint.
There's a.
There's someone out therecalled barry schwartz I was.
Mordy Oberstein (09:52):
You know I was gonna say it's like either by
joseph silvachuk or barryschwartz, so both had goatees.
So it kind of works In myprofessional space.
Barry has been a mentor to mebecause you know, listen,
barry's a prolific writer, heknows all about the S.
Barry's just a fundamentallygood person and Barry kind of
(10:13):
showed me how to be a goodperson in the professional SEO
space when your naturalinclination is sometimes to not
be a good person because thepeople out there in the SEO
community are sometimes here andthere not the greatest out
there in the SEO community aresometimes here and there, not
the greatest.
So Barry has definitely been ashining light of how to deal
with that in an upstanding way.
Danny Gavin (10:30):
How did you meet Barry?
Mordy Oberstein (10:31):
I was working for RankRanger, which I think
was recently bought out recently, a couple of years ago bought
out by SimilarWeb and one of thestrategies I was trying to
implement was we didn't have ahuge marketing budget, we didn't
have a huge marketing team, butwe had a huge amount of data
around SEO and I was trying tobuild up the authority of the
platform by trying to get SEOdata out there to the various
(10:52):
amplifiers, as Rand Fishkinlikes to call them, which is a
good word for it as opposed toinfluencers and Barry just being
a natural partner for that.
Barry's writing articles.
I had data, hey, barry, I havedata and Barry's really what's.
Hey, barry, I have data andBarry's really.
You know what's interestingabout Barry.
What's nice about Barry?
There's no pretense.
I was a nobody in the industry.
I was working for you know acompany, maybe Barry knew, maybe
(11:16):
Barry didn't know, and as longas you provide substance,
barry's cool.
It doesn't matter.
You know you have one follower,one million followers.
It's really the substance and Ilike to think that the data we
gave him was something of valuethat he would cover and that's
how the relationship got kickedoff.
Danny Gavin (11:29):
That's awesome, then I started trolling him.
I think you troll him a littlebit now also, right.
Mordy Oberstein (11:36):
Yeah, yeah, but it's fun.
It's like for both of us it'sfun.
I hope it's fun for him.
Danny Gavin (11:40):
No, I think it's all in good taste.
All right, well, let's talkabout Reb Joseph Soloveitchik.
How has he influenced you?
Mordy Oberstein (11:45):
Okay, wow, okay .
So if you don't know who RebJoseph Soloveitchik is and I've
never talked about this on amarketing podcast of any kind
whatsoever before I don't thinkI've ever talked about this on
any podcast of any kindwhatsoever before he's probably
he Time Magazine said in athousand years from now, you'll
still be reading his work.
I remember sitting on a bus onthe way to my part of my Teach
(12:07):
for America orientation back in2011 and reading one of his
books, and there was some guysitting next to me or across the
aisle on the bus likeSoloveychik.
Really, I didn't know.
Anybody else knew about him.
He took a theology course atthe University of I don't know
like Colorado and they read himin the course.
I'm like that's hilarious.
I had like, and it's ironicthat you were reading like
(12:30):
Halakhic man, which is likeprobably the most like not
relevant to you at all book, butgreat.
I grew up in an Orthodox Jewishcommunity where my rabbi was one
of his students, which wasinteresting.
So, like, the style of likelearning about Judaism did not
follow Rabbi Soloveitchik, so Iknew about him because of the
(12:51):
hierarchy of the flow oftransmission of Judaism from him
to my rabbi, but it wasn'tsomething I was really familiar
with and I remember growing upand kind of having the absolute,
absolute reverse philosophy ofhim.
I'll get to what his philosophyis in a second, if I can on one
foot.
Wow, I did not expect to talkabout this, I'm not prepared for
this at all.
I remember like just havinglike questions about like you
(13:13):
know, I wouldn't call them likereligious questions, I would
call them like existentialquestions, like does life have
meaning?
Kind of questions.
Obviously much more, much morerefined than that.
That's a very broad question.
And knowing about him but notreally knowing he wrote about
those kind of things and thenfinding him, him and Abraham
Heschel Heschel you might knowas being famous for marching
(13:37):
with Dr King hand in hand inAlabama If you ever see that
picture of the guy who lookslike Colonel Sanders next to Dr
King, that's Heschel and havinga lot of those questions kind of
answered as a young adult, 18,19, 20 years old, and that's how
I got into that and that's itBasically.
It's a philosophy around likethe, the role of like struggle
in life and like how to turnthings that are struggles into
(13:57):
and redeem them and turn theminto meaningful experiences, and
that really spoke to me at thetime.
That's how I got into that.
So, like that, being able totake things I was struggling
with and turning them intothings that became strengths for
me.
Even though, by the time I wasreading this, rabbi Solovey was
probably dead for 15 years, Ifeel like I know him, which
sounds weird.
Danny Gavin (14:16):
No, as I'm sure you know, in Judaism the concept of
books is a way for someone tolive forever and therefore when
you read that book, it's kind oflike you're getting a piece of
them.
So I believe it.
It makes sense.
Mordy Oberstein (14:29):
Yeah, I mean, I know you get it because you're
so immersed in it.
It makes total sense.
For someone who's not, itsounds like a strange concept,
but my self actually talks aboutthis.
It's a confidential communitywho has been going on for
thousands of years.
Community who has been going onfor thousands of years, all
meeting together in oneconversation that spans like
generations and you really feellike you know, like these people
are your friends and they livedthousands of years ago.
(14:51):
It's, it's a bizarre experience.
Danny Gavin (14:53):
It definitely is.
But you know what?
What it does sort of sort ofshed a light on is the concept
that a mentor doesn't have to besomeone who's physically in
front of you.
Right, yeah, you can tap intopeople who have maybe lived
hundreds of years ago, or justby reading or watching them, you
can still get that sameinspiration and guidance.
Mordy Oberstein (15:12):
Yeah, and I think we see that in the digital
marketing space.
You see somebody out there'sinnovative ideas that really
speak to you.
You may not know them, but youconstantly read them their blog
or their social media.
You feel like there's a realconnection there.
Danny Gavin (15:24):
It's true.
And then, when you like, get toconferences and you see these
people and it's like, wow, Iknow you.
Mordy Oberstein (15:29):
You're like oh my God, I can't believe that
person is such a big douchebagin real life.
Danny Gavin (15:33):
I've had that a couple of times, but most people
in our industry are actuallypretty good.
Mordy Oberstein (15:36):
I'm just kidding.
Danny Gavin (15:45):
So let's talk about you as a mentor.
So do you find it harder oreasier to mentor?
Mordy Oberstein (15:47):
fellow SEO professionals than, let's say,
other marketing professionals.
Seo is hard because I feelthere's so much debate and
things become hot button issuesand everyone kind of draws these
lines in the sand.
It's almost like Americanpolitics in a weird way.
I'm on this side, you're onthat side, you're horrible, and
there isn't a lot of room fordialogue and sharing of
(16:10):
different ideas or saying youknow what.
I don't agree with that, but Ican see where they're coming
from and that might be valuable.
Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.
There was recently someone putout a study.
I'm not going to say what itwas.
I felt like, okay, that's notwhat they're trying to explain,
something, that's not what thatis.
I disagree with that, but youknow what?
It's interesting Nonetheless.
There's interesting conclusionsthat I think are completely
(16:35):
valid or worthwhile formarketers of all kinds to know
and take away from that study,even though, like, the thing
they're trying to explain mightnot be right.
And I think, like, because SEOsdon't do that, because they
don't look for the good inthings ever, sometimes it feels
like I know it's like hyperbolic, but it doesn't feel hyperbolic
.
I was just on twitter, like aminute ago, like tweeting about
(16:55):
something, and someone repliedback to me like yeah, like seos
make this so complicated, why dowe have to do this?
And blah blah, blah blah.
And because of that it makes itmakes talking and mentoring the
wider community socontroversial.
But it shouldn't becontroversial at all.
It should just be like ideasflowing out and you'll see the
(17:16):
old school SEOs complainingabout that.
Oh, I remember when back in theday, we walked uphill both ways
of school and newspaper forshoes and people shared ideas
together on Twitter.
It doesn't happen anymore.
It's hard.
Danny Gavin (17:29):
Do you ever get any anxiety before you put
something out there on, let'ssay, Twitter or LinkedIn?
Mordy Oberstein (17:35):
I used to First getting in the industry.
I don't know if I know anything.
Now I know I don't knowanything.
I'm more comfortable with whatI don't know.
Once know anything, Now I knowI don't know anything.
I'm more comfortable with what.
I don't know, once in a while,like I put something out
yesterday about AI overviews andSEMrush data, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like someone's going tolook at this and they're going
to say that conclusion's notright.
And maybe it's not right.
(17:55):
I don't know.
Like I'm not God, I don't knowif 100% it A little bit, but at
this point it's just SEO.
If someone thinks I'm an idiot,fine.
Danny Gavin (18:05):
We're going to transition now, talking a little
bit more about brand and SEO.
So let's first talk about yourbeginnings in SEO.
You say that writing websitecopy for an educational software
company led you to your loveaffair with SEO.
What caught your interest inthis type of writing and was
there?
Mordy Oberstein (18:21):
a turning point when you realized you wanted to
focus on this as a career.
So, yeah, I was working for aneducational software company,
which makes sense.
I was teaching.
I moved to Israel and that wasthe job that I found and I was
one of the only native Englishspeakers at that point at the
company and they said, oh, couldyou?
They were launching a newwebsite and could you write web
copy?
The mentor professor that I hadback at Hopkins used to say,
like 40 million years ofteaching, you're in my one
(18:42):
percent of writers, like I lovereading what you write.
Like I always had a knack forwriting, so I'm like, yeah, yeah
, I can write web copy.
I can write anything.
Go ahead like a listicle.
Not so great at writing, butother than that which I which I
think, by the way, is a strength, not a weakness it's like, you
know, not being able to write alisticle, it's like not being
able to miss if you're playingbasketball.
(19:04):
Anyway, they said great andthey said that we wanted to
bring in traffic and convert andrank.
I'm like, what the hell are youtalking about?
And I remember finding searchengine lands, periodic table of
SEO, and I started to get intoit and I thought it was really
interesting because I I see thisall the time, by the way, with
(19:27):
other people who are not.
I have a next door neighbor whoare working on a project
together nothing to do with anyof the things we're talking
about here and I started to talkabout SEO.
I never thought to write aboutcontent that way to rank.
I never.
It never entered my mind.
This is like amazing.
It was one of those momentslike.
This is so interesting becauseI found it.
I found it conceptual.
I know, like SEOs don't alwaysthink that it's conceptual, but
(19:49):
if you look at the really goodSEOs, like I don't know, like
Kevin Indig, in my opinion, is agreat, it's very conceptual.
Lily Rae, it's very conceptual.
Glenn Gabe, it's veryconceptual and I kind of grabbed
onto that.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
Algorithms and I.
I think I still do look at itthis way.
It's not like there's X element, y element and whatever, and
(20:12):
you're trying to hit each one ofthose elements.
Whoever's programming the thingor the programmer's making the
thing, they're imbuing it withalmost like an identity in a way
, and it's operating almost likea living and breathing thing.
And when you look at it likethat, then it becomes very
conceptual and I grabbed ontothat and that's how I really got
(20:35):
into SEO.
I started I happened to like,really like luck beyond luck,
rank Ranger was looking for acontent manager.
I'm like, oh, this is amazing,I already know a little bit
about SEO.
They're an SEO platform, likelet's do this thing.
And that's where it really tookoff for me.
Danny Gavin (20:49):
I love it.
And I still see some of mystudents today where I feel like
it's kind of like the matrix,the blue and the red pill.
But, like you know, before theycome into the class they, you
know, they look at Google asGoogle, but then suddenly after
the class it's like oh my gosh,it's a different world and
either you love it or you hateit.
But yeah, like we've eitherscrewed up.
(21:10):
Every time you go to Googleit's over, right.
It's not the same experiencewhere it's like ah, I like it.
Mordy Oberstein (21:15):
No, it's not.
Which, by the way, a good point, if you know.
Mentor point if you're lookingat Google as an SEO, that's
probably not how people areactually looking at Google, it's
true.
Danny Gavin (21:23):
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So let's jump into Wix a littlebit.
So for a long time, wix waslike no name.
You know everyone was sayingWordPress is the place to go for
SEO because it's a way betterplatform.
And then Wix made a consciouseffort to really become
(22:27):
literally like the number one,like SEO friendly web platform
with so many tools and things.
Love just your opinion on that.
I don't know when you arrived,if it was before or after in
between, but just love yourperspective on that change.
Mordy Oberstein (22:41):
Yeah.
So it's one of those thingswhere, like, when things don't
go right, you can either, like Imentioned before, you can
either let it dominate you anddestroy you, or you can redeem
it into something good, like theWix story is about redeeming
something bad that happened andturning it into something
beautiful.
That's a little hyperbolic.
Also, I don't know if you Iremember watching I actually
remember watching this.
(23:01):
It was a Super Bowl commercial.
I don't remember what year theSeahawks were in the Super Bowl,
so I'm like I'm going to say2017, 2018, something like that.
Wix ran a commercial with amodel named Carly Kloss, which I
didn't know who she was untilafter I started at Wix Use Wix.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We make SEO super simple.
I forgot the exact way theyphrased it.
I remember SEOs going onTwitter the next day like, oh, I
(23:24):
guess you don't need us, justuse Wix.
There's a tweet.
I don't know where it is.
I've looked for it, I can'tfind it.
I'm out there like bashing Wix,just like everybody else.
Yeah, what about the jerks?
They don't.
They don't care about SEOs,because SEOs were so dramatic or
so overdramatic abouteverything.
Now, in reality, what was it?
You have a $10 million SuperBowl ad that you're running
(23:48):
which, by the way, there is someserious NFL memorabilia in the
Wix office and Wix is an Israelicompany.
What do they know from football?
There's literally a footballwith Franco Harris, brett Favre,
roger Stolbeck signed football.
They're sitting there onsomeone's desk.
I'm like this thing's worththousands of dollars.
It's amazing.
(24:08):
Anyway, you have a gazilliondollar 30 second spot and you
want to touch on SEO, because toa website owner, seo is a huge
deal.
It's probably I'll go on a limband say at Wix and the user
point of view, maybe outside ofweb design, it's the most
popular topic in the company andyou're trying to hit on.
(24:30):
You have three seconds to do itbecause you got to hit design,
you got to hit this, you got tohit that and you're trying to
talk to a, a your average siteowner, and that's what you come
up with.
Because that's what themarketing person who wrote like
came up with.
I don't know, I don't knowabout seo.
Right, it's like seo's, like oh, what's what's?
I wasn't thinking about youlike what's this?
Like this kind of thing.
(24:50):
How do we fit SEO into a $20million 10-second spot?
Now, what Wix did was Wix is amarketing machine.
They're like well, let's marketour way out of this, which
sometimes is a good idea,sometimes not a good idea.
And then they did a competition.
Seos who have been around for awhile will remember this.
(25:11):
I remember this it was um whocould rank a wix website fastest
?
It was lucas zelesny versusmarie haynes.
Marie haynes won and johnmueller tweeted out we don't
rank websites for competitions,we rank websites to help people.
And again, a comedy of error,because again a marketing team
is just gonna like what are wegonna do?
Okay, we'll find a creativesolution.
(25:31):
It's fine, whatever to get toget out of this problem.
Like no one's like nefariouslytrying to crapple over seos here
.
By the way, I was once in thewix office.
I was doing a podcast, um,about this whole thing, and I
said, like you know, I wentthrough the whole thing.
I said, like you knowpersonally, like that would
never have been my favoritecampaign.
And someone because I heard youon a podcast say this about
this campaign I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was me.
(25:52):
It's like I made that campaign.
Danny Gavin (25:54):
I'm like this is awkward I've had those
situations where you have you'resitting next to the guy and
you're in the meeting and you're, you know, trashing this idea
and then lo and behold the guy'ssitting next to you.
Yeah, it happens.
Mordy Oberstein (26:07):
Oh, it's awkward so wicks said, like they
, they realize okay, like wehave a problem and we need to
hit to you.
Yeah, it happens, it's awkward.
So Wix said they realized, okay, we have a problem and we need
to hit, refresh and reallyunderstand the problem.
At the same time, the productteam the way the Wix product was
set up, the way it is still setup a little bit, to a much
lesser extent.
It's very siloed the Wix storesproduct, the Wix blog product
(26:33):
are different teams, almost likefunctioning in different
companies.
In a way, seo was never focusedon individually.
Each separate let's call itsubcompany or sub-team did
whatever they thought was thebest thing to do with SEO, which
was kind of what made SEO a bitof a disaster because there was
no uniform standard.
Lo and behold, I think it was.
(26:56):
Yeah, it was.
Kobe Gamliel, my current manager, actually said we're going to
create a distinct focus on SEO.
That will be the standardacross the company, to the point
now where we have an internalseo score which has, like ceo
approval that you, if you, youhave to, and it's custom for
(27:18):
each type of page on wix.
Here are the things that areimportant.
If you're, you know a storepage, here's what's.
If you're a forum.
Here's what's important this isyour score, you have to pass
this score.
And the ceo of wix says you,you must pass the SEO score.
So we went from completefederalization we're like
America in 1777.
There's no standards, it'scomplete chaos to having an SEO
(27:42):
constitution kind of thing.
There's my history degree andmy interdisciplinary degree
coming to work Good tie-in, yeah.
So that at the same time theyreally changed the product and
they said we have to change therelationship with the SEO
community at the same time.
Comedy of errors again is theywere looking for someone in New
(28:02):
York to go around to theconference and really work the
SEO community.
Covid hit and there were no SEOconferences and they're trying
to figure out what to do.
And a former client of mine atRankRanger of ours at RankRanger
, the CEO of Israel's largestSEO agency, got hired by Wix to
(28:23):
work on their SEO product notthe Elie Mellach and he's
talking they're talking about.
He's like I don't know a guy inNew York who can go to SEO
conferences, but I know a guyfrom New York and there are no
SEO conferences.
So why don't you talk to him?
And we sat down.
I'm like here's what I would doto change that perception
around SEO take it or leave it.
And they said like, let's takeit and let's do this.
(28:44):
So it was a real nice cohesionI've never been.
I've never experienced beforewhere the product side and the
marketing side really workedhand in hand on things together.
There was a real back and forth.
I would go to the communityit's my first role at Wix Take
feedback, bring it to the team.
They would implement it.
There would be dialogue backand forth through the community.
I think it really showed theSEO where Wix was actually
(29:05):
legitimately serious aboutfixing what was wrong and not
hiding behind the fact no, therewas never any problem, nothing
to see here.
No, there was a problem, solet's fix it, kind of thing.
And that was the beginning ofjust changing the whole
narrative around Wix and SEO.
Danny Gavin (29:18):
So in a sense you were kind of Wix's Danny
Sullivan.
I don't know if you like thatcomparison, but I stole his
title.
Mordy Oberstein (29:24):
They said that we want you to be a brand
advocate.
This is where, like brandmarketing comes.
I'm like An advocate feels toosalesy for what you need.
I understand what you're tryingto say, but usually an advocate
is someone like you know thatis paying them to peddle the
product.
I don't want to be an advocate.
I'll be like the SEO communityliaison.
I forgot my exact title.
I should know that right, but Istole the liaison from Danny
(29:45):
Sullivan.
I literally stole it from him.
Danny Gavin (29:48):
Sorry, Danny, we don't have to discuss numbers,
but so those efforts of sort oftransforming Wix to be an actual
SEO machine and all the brandwork and we'll talk a little bit
more about brand marketing hasthat had a significant effect on
the bottom line?
Mordy Oberstein (30:04):
I think, enormous and it's almost
impossible to measure becausewhat we notice is that there's a
trickle down effect.
So and so Barry Schwartz, whowould never do this, goes on
Twitter and says Wix is terriblefor SEO.
It trickles down.
It trickles down to the, to thepoint where I'll call you know
what was the average Wix userback then?
The average Wix user now issomething very, very different.
(30:37):
We'll look at the product and belike I hear all these things
like Wix is not good for SEO, orsomeone writing you can see it
happening right, because someonewho's not exactly in the SEO
space but is writing an article,let's say about like is Wix
good and one of the criteria isSEO, is going to go look at what
people are saying in the SEOspace around Wix for SEO and
they see not great thing.
Then that goes into the articleand that goes out to a wider
audience.
So it's been almost liketransformational because we've
(30:59):
seen the trickle down Now thosearticles that were like the
bridge between you know some SME, you know real estate company
who wants to go on Wix and isreading an article about whether
or not Wix is good or not.
The articles they're readingshifted from saying Wix is bad
in this regard to Wix is good inthis regard.
So it's almost impossible toimagine the revenue impact
because you're talking aboutit's.
(31:21):
So I've never been involved inlike it's so wide ranging and so
far reaching and it all.
It just shows you the power ofcommunity and it all starts with
this like little SEO communityand what they say, kind of thing
.
Danny Gavin (31:33):
And it is so powerful because, you know, most
companies don't get that chanceto like reinvent themselves
right.
It's hard, no, no, super hard,so it's very painful.
It's pretty cool how Wix wasand is able to do it, you know.
Mentioning brand, let's talkabout brand marketing and SEO.
Why do you feel that SEO needsto adopt or embrace the former?
(31:53):
And I guess we should start offwith the definition.
Mordy Oberstein (31:54):
Brand marketing is one of these like ethereal
terms.
It means like so many differentthings and if you're a designer
, what brand means to you isvisual design and tone and logo
and blah, blah, blah.
And to me, like that's notbrand right, but I'm not saying
it's not like it just be beinglike, you know, like an asshat,
like that's not brand.
Brand to me has to do with the.
It's the intersection, it'sabout it's associative
(32:15):
connection between your identityand your audience's identity
who you are, who your audienceis, what you provide in terms of
, in terms of who you are andwhat they need.
And the intersection of that,where you overlap, is, is brand.
It's what you exude out andwhat's received in by the
audience is brand and that'svery conceptual, it's very
(32:38):
existential.
It's why I like brand and it'svery, very powerful, why I think
SEOs need it.
I think SEOs always needed itand the conversation kind of got
renewed I don't know if theaudience is familiar with this
or not like the whole Googleleaks that happened a few months
ago, where there was an APIcall and all of a sudden the
(32:59):
algorithm got leaked.
It didn't really get leaked,but we saw things in there, like
perhaps Google's looking atmentions across the web.
So it's not just links, it'show often your brand is being
mentioned.
Or, for example, if people areclicking on the web, clicking on
you from results, now if you'rea familiar brand, you'll get
more clicks, so brand now comesin.
(33:20):
So it kind of renewed thiswhole conversation around brand
and SEO.
But all the old school, no, no,no.
Brand and SEO have always beenwhatever it's super powerful,
because forget all of that.
The web itself is fundamentallychanging in my opinion.
You can disagree with me.
I'm not offended.
A lot of things I say arecompletely not true, but I think
(33:42):
this is true.
The web is changing and peopleare looking for something that's
much more connective.
I think you see this withpeople going to TikTok to get
information.
Or you see this with Googledidn't pull evil experience out
of its rear end.
It saw a trend because Google'sgot a massive amount of data
where people are looking forthat kind of content.
(34:04):
So Google's like that's wherewe're going to go with this
thing.
There's a shift to peoplewanting authentic experiences
from their web content.
I think web content has becomemore conversational.
I think brands who, from abrand marketing point of view,
if you're a big brand out there.
If you can be moreconversational, that would do
you well.
They're very hesitant to dothat, which I think is a big
(34:25):
mistake, but fine, if that'swhere the web is going.
They're looking for a much moreauthentic kind of experience.
They're looking, for example, Ithink, not to be nudged into
the conversion right.
So being top of mind becomesmuch more important.
I want autonomy in my buyerjourney.
I don't want to feel like I hita landing page and like click
here, buy now, get this now.
(34:47):
That's like 1970s used carcommercial kind of thing.
If I'm looking to have thatcontrol over my buyer journey,
so then me coming to you whenI'm ready becomes much more
important, which is obviously abrand awareness play.
If the entire web is shiftingin this direction which I am a
little bit biased into thinkingthat it is because I do brand
marketing then SEO, ppc, whoeveryou are, you need to understand
(35:10):
brand marketing, because that'swhere the web is going and
forgetting, like you know,diving into the nuanced
implications of that.
It's self-evident if that's thedirection of where the web is
heading.
If you're not in line with thatmindset because brand is a
mindset, in my opinion you'regoing to get left behind.
So that's why top level.
I think it's super importantfor SEOs.
Danny Gavin (35:31):
And then I guess, to dumb it down a bit, what
would be an example of SEO withbrand marketing in mind or SEO
without brand marketing in?
Mordy Oberstein (35:39):
mind.
I'm an SEO, I don't care whathappens on social media.
Do whatever you want to do onsocial media.
Google doesn't care aboutsocial media.
Okay, google's a moth andGoogle will be attracted to they
will have the largest digitallight.
And if you're getting tractionon social media people are
sharing your stuff.
They're then maybe you knowmentioning that in an article or
(36:00):
doing a.
Rand Fish has got a great videoabout this, about how, like,
most traffic comes from Google.
So I won't be on social becausemost of it comes from Google.
Yeah, but you're forgetting thefact that they saw you on
Google and then Googled you tofind you and find your product
or your service after the fact.
So the traffic may be directlyfrom Google but, to borrow a
philosophical remarist title,that's just the material cause,
(36:23):
that's like the immediate cause,like the actual, like efficient
cause behind the whole thingwas they've seen you on social.
Social plays a huge role ingetting momentum, getting you
know people, getting to search,doing branded searches for you,
and there's a whole Googlepatent about Google's looking at
branded search.
Like Google's not stupid.
Like if Google knows likepeople are typing in Nike shoes,
nike shoes, nike shoes.
(36:43):
There must be a connectionbetween Nike and shoes.
So anytime you're going to seesomething for shoes, we'll rank
Nike Obviously oversimplifyingthat.
But a lot of that brand buildingthat ties into search that way
comes from doing things onsocial, comes from content
marketing practice comes frombeing out there at conferences
and getting momentum andtraction and positioning and
having an identity and peopleknowing about you and people
(37:06):
thinking about you a certain wayand then people interacting
with you a certain way.
Knowing about you and peoplethinking about you a certain way
and then people interactingwith you a certain way.
All of that plays into howpeople go about searching for
you on Google, what they'researching for, how they're
interacting with you on GoogleIf they see you on the SERP and
then say, nope, that brand sucks.
So it comes into play so manyways.
(37:26):
Social for me, is one of thebiggest, most obvious ways that
building up your brand on social, getting that brand momentum on
social positioning yourselfbecause social is such an easy
way to position your branddirectly and I'm not saying it's
a direct ranking fact, that'snot what I'm saying directly
plays a role in what your SEOmomentum will look like.
(37:46):
Also, by the way you see this,with big brands, seo is like oh,
big brands always rank foreverything.
Google's biased towards bigbrands.
They're not biased towards bigbrands, they just have the
biggest digital light because ofthe brand marketing that
they're doing.
Danny Gavin (37:57):
So what about the small businesses who don't have
the budget?
And I know you're saying it'snot like it's a ranking factor,
but what do these startups orsmall businesses?
How can they still be effectiveon Google when brand is so
important?
Mordy Oberstein (38:11):
So that's.
I look at it almost like acomplete opposite, like brand is
the equalizer that helps thesesmall businesses.
If I'm a small business, Idon't necessarily have like a
huge amount of money to, youknow, hire 10 content writers
and five link builders and blah,blah, blah, but I can go to the
local, you know, you know fair,and sell my pies and meet other
people and gain momentum, thattrend that that offline
(38:35):
translates to online.
Right, I met so and so.
Now they link to me.
I met, or I met so and so, andnow, like we're doing a
collaboration together, I'mgoing to do an interview on his
podcast about pie making.
Brand is the equalizer that,without a big budget, still lets
you gain momentum.
Just need to think about it alittle bit differently.
Danny Gavin (38:53):
I like that.
Do you have any examples of SEOworking well with brand
marketing?
Mordy Oberstein (38:57):
I don't know if I have a particular example.
I do think, though, like one ofthe things that you're going to
start, I think, hopefullyseeing is like brands, like I
was looking at the other day youhave like Nike versus New
Balance, and how many AIoverviews are they getting?
So, yes, some of it's going tobe like overlap with organic
(39:18):
results, nike's ranking they getinto the AI overview, but a lot
of what LLMs do is entity-based.
If, around the topic, you'rethe known entity, right, so I'm
going to put you in therebecause you're the quantifiable
entity that I'm aware of aroundthis topic.
So that's something where Ifeel like we prime for a case
study about how brand impactsSEO, because all of that LLM
awareness from across the webcomes fundamentally.
(39:40):
It can come from contentdistribution I'm not saying it
can't, but it fundamentallycomes from good brand building.
So that would be something Iwould love to see somebody do a
case study on that as the AAoverview data becomes a little
bit more mature, kind of thing.
Yeah, I agree.
Danny Gavin (39:54):
Let's move a little bit away from SEO and let's
talk about performance marketing.
Can you explain the tensionthat exists between performance
and brand marketing?
Mordy Oberstein (40:01):
Yeah.
So performing and SEO is verymuch a performance kind of
marketing thing.
Right, you're trying to gettraffic.
Or if you're doing CRL, right,you want to get the conversion.
If you're doing PPC, you'retrying to get a click.
If you're in social media,you're trying to get a like and
a repost, or whatever it is.
So, for lack of a better way ofdefining it, performance
(40:21):
marketing wants actions to takeplace and wants them to happen
immediately, and it wants themto happen in volume, because
that's how you're gettingmeasured and no one's got the
patience to wait for you, right?
I think the tension doesn'texist because of the
practitioners.
I don't think the SEO isthinking this way or the PPC
person is thinking this waynecessarily.
I think the thing is we can seelevels telling them to think
(40:41):
this way, like we must getresults right now, and that's
generally because people areimpatient.
It's almost like a kid, likeimmediate gratification.
If I can have immediategratification versus
gratification down the line, Iwill take the immediate
gratification, becauseperformance marketing doesn't
have to be this way, but it is.
A performance marketer couldsay I'm going to sacrifice the
(41:02):
immediate performance of thisproject, whatever it is I'm
doing for the long-termsustainable growth that will
provide me down the line.
Danny Gavin (41:10):
But we don't.
I feel like, as digitalmarketers, performance marketers
we have like these big targetson our back.
Like man, if you're digitalmarketing, you're able to
measure everything, and if youcan't, then it's over.
That's the whole thing.
Mordy Oberstein (41:21):
If I can measure it, yeah, if I can
measure it.
If it's not happening right now, then it must be bad.
But that's a false equation.
If I can measure it, it doesn'tmean that it's not happening
right now that's bad.
Maybe I'm just setting myselfup in the future.
Yeah, everyone performs smart,has a target on their back
because of that, which puts themat odds with brand, with what I
would call genuine brandmarketing.
Because genuine brand marketingyou're building up associations
(41:43):
and any association it takes anenormous amount of setup and
then it takes an enormous amountof time.
Right, like if you had a badexperience at one time at
McDonald's, you're not going toassociate it as like bad, unless
it was like catastrophic.
But if you keep going back,you're like this Happy Meal is
not so happy.
You're going to build up anassociation.
(42:04):
So brand, by definition, is way,way, way, way, way different of
a mindset than performance.
You're really like the way Idescribe it is you're not even
planting seeds that will convert.
You're like you're a farmersowing the ground that you can
eventually plant the seeds.
Like the brand marketer sowsthe ground.
The distribution marketer whichthat's not a real term plants
(42:25):
the seeds and the performancemarketer like grows the plant,
so like you're so far removedfrom the actual conversion to a
certain extent which, by the way, brand marketers don't have to
be I think like momentum is agreat equalizer.
If you can show you're buildingmomentum with your marketing,
with your brand marketing, it'svery clear to see like how that
will tie into performance.
So there is a way to bridge thegap.
(42:45):
But in terms of brand versusperformance as a as a as a
tension thing, there's a naturaltension there because the
mindsets and the focus are justvery, very different.
Danny Gavin (42:55):
Do you think it's the job of agencies or it could
even be internal teams that whenthey get the marching orders,
hey, it's all about performance,performance, performance.
To try to find a way to starteducating a pie better and
finding a way to include tostart educating a pie better and
finding a way to include,especially now in 2024, when you
know, potentially, cookies aregoing away and tracking is
(43:15):
harder.
What's your opinion on that?
Mordy Oberstein (43:17):
I'd say it's an education issue plus a results
issue.
The stakeholders, whether it bethe client or the decision
maker, whether it be an internalteam, they don't really want to
hear it.
So you can educate as much asyou want, but if the other side
doesn't want to hear it, you'retalking to a wall.
And sometimes it takes a littlebit of education and a little
bit of like.
(43:37):
You know, like the ceiling, thesky falling in, to make a
decision happen.
Like wait a second.
Like we're not converting theway we used to.
Oh, let's go ask theperformance market what's going
on?
They're like we don't know.
And the performance marketwhat's going on?
They're like we don't know.
And the brand's like yeah, Iknow what's going on.
Like user behavior has changed,user sentiment has changed,
content consumption trends havechanged.
(43:57):
You're just out of sync withyour audience right now.
Let me show you how to fix this.
And like, when they run throughall the options, try to the
quick fix on the performance andit's not working.
You know what that brand dudetold me like a couple of months
ago.
Maybe he's got something likethat.
So it's like the educationplants the seed when the
performance stops working andthey can't figure it out that
they'll come back to you and belike okay, what do you got for
me now?
That's how I, that's my utopiaof how it'll work.
Danny Gavin (44:20):
That makes sense.
The question is can you make,can you speed that up?
But sometimes you can't.
Mordy Oberstein (44:26):
That like how quickly they're going to drop
you.
Danny Gavin (44:28):
Guys, can you please drop them a little
quicker, so that we can getbranded back.
Mordy Oberstein (44:32):
You should be advocating for your stop buying
our product.
Danny Gavin (44:35):
Oh man, this has been great.
All right, let's quickly getinto our lightning round.
We're going to talk about threecategories, so number one,
philosophy.
Mordy Oberstein (44:41):
Brand marketing comes up for philosophy right,
being existential, havingidentity, knowing who you are,
but making sure it's meaningful.
Being meaningful, right, Likewe're all looking, like I think
we're all looking for something.
We don't know what it is, andthat thing is meaning and I'm
not going to get into like,where do you find meaning?
I'll leave that for you tofigure out Whether you're doing
brand marketing or whetheryou're doing personal marketing.
Finding meaning is an endeavorthat doesn't get discussed.
Danny Gavin (45:03):
Sports and I know you're wearing a certain cap
from Houston, Texas.
I don't know if we need tomention anything like that oh,
let me get my trash can.
Mordy Oberstein (45:10):
Dude, Let me get my trash can.
Danny Gavin (45:14):
Oh, that's awesome, oh God.
Mordy Oberstein (45:15):
I didn't know you were an.
Oh, I never would have come onthe podcast.
That'd be funny, I should haveworked.
Danny Gavin (45:19):
I'm a big.
Oh yeah, it's actually.
Should we just?
Mordy Oberstein (45:24):
Oh man, for those who don't know, the Astros
cheated and we lost the ALCSbecause of it.
Aaron Judge lost an MVP becauseof it.
The Dodgers lost the WorldSeries out of it.
But I'm a big baseball fan.
I love the Yankees.
I grew up in the heyday ofYankees winning every year, to
the point where now they lose agame.
(45:45):
I'm like, oh, they're trash,they're horrible.
What's going on?
When we had Derek Jeter, we wonevery single day.
Danny Gavin (45:50):
Yeah, it's hard because we're about the same age
.
We grew up in a very Yankee protime, so it's been a tough
couple.
Mordy Oberstein (45:57):
Yeah, evil empire.
Danny Gavin (45:58):
Yeah, tough couple of years.
Mordy Oberstein (46:00):
Now you're having the glory days and not
having the tough couple of years.
Danny Gavin (46:03):
Yeah, we're enjoying it.
It's worth it.
All right, and finally, coffeeor whiskey, or both.
Mordy Oberstein (46:09):
Both.
So I try not to drink as muchas I used to.
I love single malt scotch.
I feel it's also very Jewish,very and coffee and, as someone
who moved from the US to aEuropean-style country, I don't
know what the hell is espressocrap.
Give me a regular drip coffee.
I will literally come back whenI go to the States.
(46:30):
I don't know what the hell isthis espresso crap.
Give me a regular drip coffee.
I will literally come back whenI go to the States with a half
a suitcase full of ground coffee.
Danny Gavin (46:37):
If anyone wants to send a gift, a nice case of
Maxwell House I think would begood for you.
Mordy Oberstein (46:43):
A little higher up than Maxwell House.
But I tell my father, do noteven think about stepping foot
in my house until you make sureyou have a bag of coffee in your
, and then I make him open it up, hand it over.
Okay, now you can stay here forsix weeks.
That's a good entry fee.
Danny Gavin (46:59):
Well, I know we've hit the top of the hour, morty,
this has been so awesome.
I don't think I've laughed thismuch in an episode.
It's been a huge pleasure.
Mordy Oberstein (47:06):
Best compliment ever.
Danny Gavin (47:07):
Thank you for being a guest on the Digital
Marketing Mentor and thank you,listeners, for tuning into the
Digital Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Thank you for listening to theDigital Marketing Mentor podcast
.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, spotify orwherever you listen to your
(47:29):
podcasts, for more marketingmentor magic.
See you next time.
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
This episode is brought to youby Odeo Academy.
(00:38):
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Hello, I'm Danny Gavin, founderof Optige, marketing Professor
and the host of the DigitalMarketing Mentor.
(00:59):
Today we have a very specialguest, morty Oberstein, head of
brand SEO at Wix, anIsraeli-based free,
user-friendly website buildingplatform.
That's also great for SEO.
Morty transitioned from being aBaltimore public school teacher
to a passionate SEO expert.
He's worked at SEMrush,rankranger and now Wix in two
different roles.
Besides his SEO work, morty'san avid podcaster, hosting the
SEO Rant, and he currently holdsthe record for creating,
(01:21):
hosting and contributing to themore podcasts than anyone else
on this planet.
So much so he's going to be onanother one right after this.
He's also a prolific writer forpublications such as Sunrush,
search Engine Land, searchEngine Journal, moz, deep Crawl
and many more.
Welcome Morty, how are you?
(01:42):
Great, you know when you put itthat way, I went from optimizing
other people's children tooptimizing websites.
Mordy Oberstein (01:45):
That's a cool way to look at it.
Yeah, I would just change theirtitle tag so they'd rank better
, that's all.
Danny Gavin (01:49):
I hope you had permission from the parents to
do that.
Mordy Oberstein (01:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had to get a whole
sign-off.
Before you touch on people'scontent, you have to really
change it.
You have to get permission.
Danny Gavin (01:58):
Well, today we're going to talk about the
intersection of brand and SEO,and how brand development leads
to growth and a whole bunch ofother cool things.
So let's start off with whereyou went to school and what you
studied.
Mordy Oberstein (02:08):
I went to Truro for my undergrad.
I was going to be I was ahistory major originally, which
is completely useless.
Danny Gavin (02:17):
So where did that come from?
Mordy Oberstein (02:17):
Where did that come from?
I like history.
I like history, yeah, and itseemed easy.
And they told me a week beforeI was supposed to graduate, or
something like that, like, oh,we screwed up.
They didn't say we screwed up.
They said you screwed up.
They screwed up and you don'thave enough credits for a
history major.
I'm like, well, I have to comeback for another semester.
They said, well, you could dothat, or you can get an
interdisciplinary degree and bedone.
(02:39):
Now I'm like, let's do that.
So I have the one thing that'seven more worthless than a
history degree, which is aninterdisciplinary degree.
I don't know what that means,but then I also have a master's
in education from Johns Hopkins,which is a real school and a
real degree, as opposed to thelast one.
Danny Gavin (02:52):
I knew you were in education, so is that something
that you went in to get rightaway, or was that after you
already started teaching?
Mordy Oberstein (03:01):
I'm like in my fourth career already.
I'm like a cat.
I have like nine careers SinceI was 18, I was working no
earlier, even whatever, itdoesn't matter.
I was working for a propertymanagement company in New York.
I was there for almost likenine years, something like that.
I was the COO of the company atone point, which is ridiculous.
It was around the time of the.
I'm also old.
At this point I'm dating myselfthe crash in 2008.
(03:22):
A year or two after that wasburned out, the real estate
market was a ginormous disaster.
I always wanted to teach and Isaid I'm just going to do it,
I'm going to go for it.
And I went and did Teach forAmerica, where they kind of like
throw you into the classroom,into underprivileged school
districts this one in Baltimoreand you go for your master's at
the same time.
So that's how.
That's how that happened.
Danny Gavin (03:42):
That's cool.
So you got a two for one, yeah.
So when you look back atuniversity, whether it's your
undergrad or masters, are thereany experiences both inside and
outside the classroom that wereimpactful in directing your path
?
Mordy Oberstein (03:52):
Yeah, you know, I think it all depends on the,
on the teacher.
I mean, you're your professor,right?
You?
You know this.
There was one professor.
I had her multiple times ingrad school.
Undergrad was I went to nightschool, I was just trying to get
through and like whatever, butfor grad school that was
actually meaningful for me and Ihad this professor and I don't
know if I can point back and saylike, oh, she taught me this
(04:14):
and that one thing changed myoutlook or my practice or
whatever.
But all those small littlemicro moments that sort of
compounded over the manysemesters that I had her, was
definitely influential how Ilooked at teaching, how I looked
at education, how I looked atit as a practitioner in the
classroom, a million percent.
That one person just sticks outabove all else because of who
(04:37):
she was and how she went aboutthings.
Again, not the big things, allthe little things that she did.
Danny Gavin (04:42):
Not everyone is lucky to have someone like that
when they go through school.
Mordy Oberstein (04:49):
No, I was very fortunate, morty.
How would you define a mentor?
Thanks for asking me an easyquestion.
How would define a mentor?
I mean, I'll say it's someonewho guides you, but like, I
don't think that's really whatwe mean.
I think I don't think it's autilitarian sort of thing.
Like, oh, I need a mentor toteach me to.
You know, I'm a, I'm, I want tobe a blacksmith, so I'm going
to go for an apprenticeship andthat's how you say that word and
to learn how to be a blacksmith.
Like that's just someone justshowing you how to do something.
(05:12):
I don't think that's what amentor is.
A mentor really is a it's I'llsay this as a former teacher
there's only one otherrelationship and as a parent,
where, where the dynamic is sodeep that it's almost like a
parent and child, and that's astudent and a teacher, and
that's because it's not apractical thing.
When you're sharing knowledgein a real way, you're sharing
(05:33):
yourself, right?
You're sharing your experiences.
It's E-A-T, it's the E forexperience.
You're really trying to showyour experience around something
and how you've experienced itand the problems that you felt
and dealt with along the way, soas to prevent that person from
going through those problems andthose hardships.
So it's really a much deepersort of existential kind of
relationship.
It's not like I will show youhow to do X.
(05:54):
That's not a mentor.
Mentor is really someone who'sguiding you through the crises
that you might have or thedifficulties and the struggles
that you're going to have, sothat you can develop not just a
skill but you can develop as aperson in the context of
whatever it is you're trying tolearn.
Danny Gavin (06:11):
I love that and I love how you build it up from
being a teacher, Because in asense a mentor is a teacher but,
like you said, it's not aboutteaching a skill per se, but
it's more about transferringover that experience.
So we spoke a little bit before, but what are the most
essential traits of a mentor?
Mordy Oberstein (06:26):
As someone who's screwed up many, many
times.
This is why I listen to this.
But at my kids' bar mitzvah Isaid this to them.
I have twin boys who arerecently bar mitzvahed.
I'm like you need to forgiveyourself.
Like you're going to, life isgoing to throw curve balls at
you sliders, sweepers, knucklecurve balls, all kinds of
breaking balls and you're goingto miss and you need to just
(06:47):
forgive yourself and move on.
And it's the same thing foryourself, but also for a mentor.
If you have someone under yourtutelage, they're not going to
get it right.
You would do it this way andthey ended up doing it that way
and you sort of have to let thatperson A make the mistakes and
forgive them.
But also, when I say forgive,it also means kind of carve out
their own path.
(07:07):
At the same time, in my mindsort of like the same thing.
I'll think back.
I was a mentor, I was a fourthgrade teacher.
But those kids would mess upall the time and they're fourth
graders, so obviously you let itslide.
They're nine years old, whatare they supposed to do?
But it's a mentality you could.
You could hold them to the, youknow, be a stickler and hold
(07:29):
them to the nth degree oneverything.
But to be a good mentor youreally have to have that slack.
When I say forgiveness, I meangiving them slack.
Danny Gavin (07:36):
Number two you mentioned was communication.
Mordy Oberstein (07:38):
Yeah, so obviously, if you're going to be
a mentor, you can't communicate.
You can't be an effectivementor.
Like it's just, like it's not.
You might have the best ofintentions, you might be the
greatest forgiver on the entireplanet, because you'll be doing
a lot of forgiving, because noone's going to know what the
heck you actually want and whatyou actually mean.
They won't be able to.
You won't be able to beeffectively transmitting all of
your experience and knowledgeand know-how to that person.
(07:59):
It's just.
I almost feel guilty sayingthat as a trait, because it is
the thing You're a mentor.
You are communicating.
Danny Gavin (08:08):
You've dealt with a lot of people throughout all
your businesses and areas ofwork.
Do you feel like communicationis something that people are
able to learn, or is it more ofa trait where it's just you're
naturally a good communicator.
Mordy Oberstein (08:19):
I think it's like anything If you're not good
at it, you can improve at it.
But I think it's an art.
I think if you are a goodcommunicator, that is something
that's not taught.
That's probably taught fromyour childhood.
The context of how you grew upand the situation of what you
needed to do as a kid isprobably what makes you a good
or not good communicator.
(08:40):
Now I know that's kind of likea Freudian hot take for you?
Danny Gavin (08:43):
No, I believe it.
So, you know, I've got a coupleof kids, and my youngest, my
daughter, you know, she's justso good at communicating, like
when she feels sad she says whyright?
And my other kids, you know,you, just, you see them in a bad
mood or whatever, and it's like, you know, just let me know
what's wrong.
So I see it, I see it in thekids.
So that makes sense.
Mordy Oberstein (09:01):
I mean, if you're not a good communicator,
I'm not saying there's a hopefor you.
There's hope but not so muchhope, just a little bit of hope.
Danny Gavin (09:09):
That's all you need , all right.
And then finally, vision.
Mordy Oberstein (09:11):
Think of a manager that you had that was
really good versus one that wasreally bad.
It's probably because thatperson had a vision, because
you're following them as amentor.
You're a leader.
If you don't have vision, whereare we going?
What are we doing?
Why are we doing this?
What's the plan?
Where are we going to end up?
Why is this meaningful If youdon't have that and then you're
asking somebody to follow you?
(09:31):
Impossible, it's just notpossible.
Vision is, I think,under-discussed, underrated and
underutilized.
Danny Gavin (09:39):
So Morty, who has been some of your most
influential mentors?
Oh man, now you're like puttingme on a hot.
On the hot, I'll drop a quickhint.
There's a.
There's someone out therecalled barry schwartz I was.
Mordy Oberstein (09:52):
You know I was gonna say it's like either by
joseph silvachuk or barryschwartz, so both had goatees.
So it kind of works In myprofessional space.
Barry has been a mentor to mebecause you know, listen,
barry's a prolific writer, heknows all about the S.
Barry's just a fundamentallygood person and Barry kind of
(10:13):
showed me how to be a goodperson in the professional SEO
space when your naturalinclination is sometimes to not
be a good person because thepeople out there in the SEO
community are sometimes here andthere not the greatest out
there in the SEO community aresometimes here and there, not
the greatest.
So Barry has definitely been ashining light of how to deal
with that in an upstanding way.
Danny Gavin (10:30):
How did you meet Barry?
Mordy Oberstein (10:31):
I was working for RankRanger, which I think
was recently bought out recently, a couple of years ago bought
out by SimilarWeb and one of thestrategies I was trying to
implement was we didn't have ahuge marketing budget, we didn't
have a huge marketing team, butwe had a huge amount of data
around SEO and I was trying tobuild up the authority of the
platform by trying to get SEOdata out there to the various
(10:52):
amplifiers, as Rand Fishkinlikes to call them, which is a
good word for it as opposed toinfluencers and Barry just being
a natural partner for that.
Barry's writing articles.
I had data, hey, barry, I havedata and Barry's really what's.
Hey, barry, I have data andBarry's really.
You know what's interestingabout Barry.
What's nice about Barry?
There's no pretense.
I was a nobody in the industry.
I was working for you know acompany, maybe Barry knew, maybe
(11:16):
Barry didn't know, and as longas you provide substance,
barry's cool.
It doesn't matter.
You know you have one follower,one million followers.
It's really the substance and Ilike to think that the data we
gave him was something of valuethat he would cover and that's
how the relationship got kickedoff.
Danny Gavin (11:29):
That's awesome, then I started trolling him.
I think you troll him a littlebit now also, right.
Mordy Oberstein (11:36):
Yeah, yeah, but it's fun.
It's like for both of us it'sfun.
I hope it's fun for him.
Danny Gavin (11:40):
No, I think it's all in good taste.
All right, well, let's talkabout Reb Joseph Soloveitchik.
How has he influenced you?
Mordy Oberstein (11:45):
Okay, wow, okay .
So if you don't know who RebJoseph Soloveitchik is and I've
never talked about this on amarketing podcast of any kind
whatsoever before I don't thinkI've ever talked about this on
any podcast of any kindwhatsoever before he's probably
he Time Magazine said in athousand years from now, you'll
still be reading his work.
I remember sitting on a bus onthe way to my part of my Teach
(12:07):
for America orientation back in2011 and reading one of his
books, and there was some guysitting next to me or across the
aisle on the bus likeSoloveychik.
Really, I didn't know.
Anybody else knew about him.
He took a theology course atthe University of I don't know
like Colorado and they read himin the course.
I'm like that's hilarious.
I had like, and it's ironicthat you were reading like
(12:30):
Halakhic man, which is likeprobably the most like not
relevant to you at all book, butgreat.
I grew up in an Orthodox Jewishcommunity where my rabbi was one
of his students, which wasinteresting.
So, like, the style of likelearning about Judaism did not
follow Rabbi Soloveitchik, so Iknew about him because of the
(12:51):
hierarchy of the flow oftransmission of Judaism from him
to my rabbi, but it wasn'tsomething I was really familiar
with and I remember growing upand kind of having the absolute,
absolute reverse philosophy ofhim.
I'll get to what his philosophyis in a second, if I can on one
foot.
Wow, I did not expect to talkabout this, I'm not prepared for
this at all.
I remember like just havinglike questions about like you
(13:13):
know, I wouldn't call them likereligious questions, I would
call them like existentialquestions, like does life have
meaning?
Kind of questions.
Obviously much more, much morerefined than that.
That's a very broad question.
And knowing about him but notreally knowing he wrote about
those kind of things and thenfinding him, him and Abraham
Heschel Heschel you might knowas being famous for marching
(13:37):
with Dr King hand in hand inAlabama If you ever see that
picture of the guy who lookslike Colonel Sanders next to Dr
King, that's Heschel and havinga lot of those questions kind of
answered as a young adult, 18,19, 20 years old, and that's how
I got into that and that's itBasically.
It's a philosophy around likethe, the role of like struggle
in life and like how to turnthings that are struggles into
(13:57):
and redeem them and turn theminto meaningful experiences, and
that really spoke to me at thetime.
That's how I got into that.
So, like that, being able totake things I was struggling
with and turning them intothings that became strengths for
me.
Even though, by the time I wasreading this, rabbi Solovey was
probably dead for 15 years, Ifeel like I know him, which
sounds weird.
Danny Gavin (14:16):
No, as I'm sure you know, in Judaism the concept of
books is a way for someone tolive forever and therefore when
you read that book, it's kind oflike you're getting a piece of
them.
So I believe it.
It makes sense.
Mordy Oberstein (14:29):
Yeah, I mean, I know you get it because you're
so immersed in it.
It makes total sense.
For someone who's not, itsounds like a strange concept,
but my self actually talks aboutthis.
It's a confidential communitywho has been going on for
thousands of years.
Community who has been going onfor thousands of years, all
meeting together in oneconversation that spans like
generations and you really feellike you know, like these people
are your friends and they livedthousands of years ago.
(14:51):
It's, it's a bizarre experience.
Danny Gavin (14:53):
It definitely is.
But you know what?
What it does sort of sort ofshed a light on is the concept
that a mentor doesn't have to besomeone who's physically in
front of you.
Right, yeah, you can tap intopeople who have maybe lived
hundreds of years ago, or justby reading or watching them, you
can still get that sameinspiration and guidance.
Mordy Oberstein (15:12):
Yeah, and I think we see that in the digital
marketing space.
You see somebody out there'sinnovative ideas that really
speak to you.
You may not know them, but youconstantly read them their blog
or their social media.
You feel like there's a realconnection there.
Danny Gavin (15:24):
It's true.
And then, when you like, get toconferences and you see these
people and it's like, wow, Iknow you.
Mordy Oberstein (15:29):
You're like oh my God, I can't believe that
person is such a big douchebagin real life.
Danny Gavin (15:33):
I've had that a couple of times, but most people
in our industry are actuallypretty good.
Mordy Oberstein (15:36):
I'm just kidding.
Danny Gavin (15:45):
So let's talk about you as a mentor.
So do you find it harder oreasier to mentor?
Mordy Oberstein (15:47):
fellow SEO professionals than, let's say,
other marketing professionals.
Seo is hard because I feelthere's so much debate and
things become hot button issuesand everyone kind of draws these
lines in the sand.
It's almost like Americanpolitics in a weird way.
I'm on this side, you're onthat side, you're horrible, and
there isn't a lot of room fordialogue and sharing of
(16:10):
different ideas or saying youknow what.
I don't agree with that, but Ican see where they're coming
from and that might be valuable.
Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada.
There was recently someone putout a study.
I'm not going to say what itwas.
I felt like, okay, that's notwhat they're trying to explain,
something, that's not what thatis.
I disagree with that, but youknow what?
It's interesting Nonetheless.
There's interesting conclusionsthat I think are completely
(16:35):
valid or worthwhile formarketers of all kinds to know
and take away from that study,even though, like, the thing
they're trying to explain mightnot be right.
And I think, like, because SEOsdon't do that, because they
don't look for the good inthings ever, sometimes it feels
like I know it's like hyperbolic, but it doesn't feel hyperbolic
.
I was just on twitter, like aminute ago, like tweeting about
(16:55):
something, and someone repliedback to me like yeah, like seos
make this so complicated, why dowe have to do this?
And blah blah, blah blah.
And because of that it makes itmakes talking and mentoring the
wider community socontroversial.
But it shouldn't becontroversial at all.
It should just be like ideasflowing out and you'll see the
(17:16):
old school SEOs complainingabout that.
Oh, I remember when back in theday, we walked uphill both ways
of school and newspaper forshoes and people shared ideas
together on Twitter.
It doesn't happen anymore.
It's hard.
Danny Gavin (17:29):
Do you ever get any anxiety before you put
something out there on, let'ssay, Twitter or LinkedIn?
Mordy Oberstein (17:35):
I used to First getting in the industry.
I don't know if I know anything.
Now I know I don't knowanything.
I'm more comfortable with whatI don't know.
Once know anything, Now I knowI don't know anything.
I'm more comfortable with what.
I don't know, once in a while,like I put something out
yesterday about AI overviews andSEMrush data, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like someone's going tolook at this and they're going
to say that conclusion's notright.
And maybe it's not right.
(17:55):
I don't know.
Like I'm not God, I don't knowif 100% it A little bit, but at
this point it's just SEO.
If someone thinks I'm an idiot,fine.
Danny Gavin (18:05):
We're going to transition now, talking a little
bit more about brand and SEO.
So let's first talk about yourbeginnings in SEO.
You say that writing websitecopy for an educational software
company led you to your loveaffair with SEO.
What caught your interest inthis type of writing and was
there?
Mordy Oberstein (18:21):
a turning point when you realized you wanted to
focus on this as a career.
So, yeah, I was working for aneducational software company,
which makes sense.
I was teaching.
I moved to Israel and that wasthe job that I found and I was
one of the only native Englishspeakers at that point at the
company and they said, oh, couldyou?
They were launching a newwebsite and could you write web
copy?
The mentor professor that I hadback at Hopkins used to say,
like 40 million years ofteaching, you're in my one
(18:42):
percent of writers, like I lovereading what you write.
Like I always had a knack forwriting, so I'm like, yeah, yeah
, I can write web copy.
I can write anything.
Go ahead like a listicle.
Not so great at writing, butother than that which I which I
think, by the way, is a strength, not a weakness it's like, you
know, not being able to write alisticle, it's like not being
able to miss if you're playingbasketball.
(19:04):
Anyway, they said great andthey said that we wanted to
bring in traffic and convert andrank.
I'm like, what the hell are youtalking about?
And I remember finding searchengine lands, periodic table of
SEO, and I started to get intoit and I thought it was really
interesting because I I see thisall the time, by the way, with
(19:27):
other people who are not.
I have a next door neighbor whoare working on a project
together nothing to do with anyof the things we're talking
about here and I started to talkabout SEO.
I never thought to write aboutcontent that way to rank.
I never.
It never entered my mind.
This is like amazing.
It was one of those momentslike.
This is so interesting becauseI found it.
I found it conceptual.
I know, like SEOs don't alwaysthink that it's conceptual, but
(19:49):
if you look at the really goodSEOs, like I don't know, like
Kevin Indig, in my opinion, is agreat, it's very conceptual.
Lily Rae, it's very conceptual.
Glenn Gabe, it's veryconceptual and I kind of grabbed
onto that.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
Algorithms and I.
I think I still do look at itthis way.
It's not like there's X element, y element and whatever, and
(20:12):
you're trying to hit each one ofthose elements.
Whoever's programming the thingor the programmer's making the
thing, they're imbuing it withalmost like an identity in a way
, and it's operating almost likea living and breathing thing.
And when you look at it likethat, then it becomes very
conceptual and I grabbed ontothat and that's how I really got
(20:35):
into SEO.
I started I happened to like,really like luck beyond luck,
rank Ranger was looking for acontent manager.
I'm like, oh, this is amazing,I already know a little bit
about SEO.
They're an SEO platform, likelet's do this thing.
And that's where it really tookoff for me.
Danny Gavin (20:49):
I love it.
And I still see some of mystudents today where I feel like
it's kind of like the matrix,the blue and the red pill.
But, like you know, before theycome into the class they, you
know, they look at Google asGoogle, but then suddenly after
the class it's like oh my gosh,it's a different world and
either you love it or you hateit.
But yeah, like we've eitherscrewed up.
(21:10):
Every time you go to Googleit's over, right.
It's not the same experiencewhere it's like ah, I like it.
Mordy Oberstein (21:15):
No, it's not.
Which, by the way, a good point, if you know.
Mentor point if you're lookingat Google as an SEO, that's
probably not how people areactually looking at Google, it's
true.
Danny Gavin (21:23):
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So let's jump into Wix a littlebit.
So for a long time, wix waslike no name.
You know everyone was sayingWordPress is the place to go for
SEO because it's a way betterplatform.
And then Wix made a consciouseffort to really become
(22:27):
literally like the number one,like SEO friendly web platform
with so many tools and things.
Love just your opinion on that.
I don't know when you arrived,if it was before or after in
between, but just love yourperspective on that change.
Mordy Oberstein (22:41):
Yeah.
So it's one of those thingswhere, like, when things don't
go right, you can either, like Imentioned before, you can
either let it dominate you anddestroy you, or you can redeem
it into something good, like theWix story is about redeeming
something bad that happened andturning it into something
beautiful.
That's a little hyperbolic.
Also, I don't know if you Iremember watching I actually
remember watching this.
(23:01):
It was a Super Bowl commercial.
I don't remember what year theSeahawks were in the Super Bowl,
so I'm like I'm going to say2017, 2018, something like that.
Wix ran a commercial with amodel named Carly Kloss, which I
didn't know who she was untilafter I started at Wix Use Wix.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We make SEO super simple.
I forgot the exact way theyphrased it.
I remember SEOs going onTwitter the next day like, oh, I
(23:24):
guess you don't need us, justuse Wix.
There's a tweet.
I don't know where it is.
I've looked for it, I can'tfind it.
I'm out there like bashing Wix,just like everybody else.
Yeah, what about the jerks?
They don't.
They don't care about SEOs,because SEOs were so dramatic or
so overdramatic abouteverything.
Now, in reality, what was it?
You have a $10 million SuperBowl ad that you're running
(23:48):
which, by the way, there is someserious NFL memorabilia in the
Wix office and Wix is an Israelicompany.
What do they know from football?
There's literally a footballwith Franco Harris, brett Favre,
roger Stolbeck signed football.
They're sitting there onsomeone's desk.
I'm like this thing's worththousands of dollars.
It's amazing.
(24:08):
Anyway, you have a gazilliondollar 30 second spot and you
want to touch on SEO, because toa website owner, seo is a huge
deal.
It's probably I'll go on a limband say at Wix and the user
point of view, maybe outside ofweb design, it's the most
popular topic in the company andyou're trying to hit on.
(24:30):
You have three seconds to do itbecause you got to hit design,
you got to hit this, you got tohit that and you're trying to
talk to a, a your average siteowner, and that's what you come
up with.
Because that's what themarketing person who wrote like
came up with.
I don't know, I don't knowabout seo.
Right, it's like seo's, like oh, what's what's?
I wasn't thinking about youlike what's this?
Like this kind of thing.
(24:50):
How do we fit SEO into a $20million 10-second spot?
Now, what Wix did was Wix is amarketing machine.
They're like well, let's marketour way out of this, which
sometimes is a good idea,sometimes not a good idea.
And then they did a competition.
Seos who have been around for awhile will remember this.
(25:11):
I remember this it was um whocould rank a wix website fastest
?
It was lucas zelesny versusmarie haynes.
Marie haynes won and johnmueller tweeted out we don't
rank websites for competitions,we rank websites to help people.
And again, a comedy of error,because again a marketing team
is just gonna like what are wegonna do?
Okay, we'll find a creativesolution.
(25:31):
It's fine, whatever to get toget out of this problem.
Like no one's like nefariouslytrying to crapple over seos here
.
By the way, I was once in thewix office.
I was doing a podcast, um,about this whole thing, and I
said, like you know, I wentthrough the whole thing.
I said, like you knowpersonally, like that would
never have been my favoritecampaign.
And someone because I heard youon a podcast say this about
this campaign I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was me.
(25:52):
It's like I made that campaign.
Danny Gavin (25:54):
I'm like this is awkward I've had those
situations where you have you'resitting next to the guy and
you're in the meeting and you're, you know, trashing this idea
and then lo and behold the guy'ssitting next to you.
Yeah, it happens.
Mordy Oberstein (26:07):
Oh, it's awkward so wicks said, like they
, they realize okay, like wehave a problem and we need to
hit to you.
Yeah, it happens, it's awkward.
So Wix said they realized, okay, we have a problem and we need
to hit, refresh and reallyunderstand the problem.
At the same time, the productteam the way the Wix product was
set up, the way it is still setup a little bit, to a much
lesser extent.
It's very siloed the Wix storesproduct, the Wix blog product
(26:33):
are different teams, almost likefunctioning in different
companies.
In a way, seo was never focusedon individually.
Each separate let's call itsubcompany or sub-team did
whatever they thought was thebest thing to do with SEO, which
was kind of what made SEO a bitof a disaster because there was
no uniform standard.
Lo and behold, I think it was.
(26:56):
Yeah, it was.
Kobe Gamliel, my current manager, actually said we're going to
create a distinct focus on SEO.
That will be the standardacross the company, to the point
now where we have an internalseo score which has, like ceo
approval that you, if you, youhave to, and it's custom for
(27:18):
each type of page on wix.
Here are the things that areimportant.
If you're, you know a storepage, here's what's.
If you're a forum.
Here's what's important this isyour score, you have to pass
this score.
And the ceo of wix says you,you must pass the SEO score.
So we went from completefederalization we're like
America in 1777.
There's no standards, it'scomplete chaos to having an SEO
(27:42):
constitution kind of thing.
There's my history degree andmy interdisciplinary degree
coming to work Good tie-in, yeah.
So that at the same time theyreally changed the product and
they said we have to change therelationship with the SEO
community at the same time.
Comedy of errors again is theywere looking for someone in New
(28:02):
York to go around to theconference and really work the
SEO community.
Covid hit and there were no SEOconferences and they're trying
to figure out what to do.
And a former client of mine atRankRanger of ours at RankRanger
, the CEO of Israel's largestSEO agency, got hired by Wix to
(28:23):
work on their SEO product notthe Elie Mellach and he's
talking they're talking about.
He's like I don't know a guy inNew York who can go to SEO
conferences, but I know a guyfrom New York and there are no
SEO conferences.
So why don't you talk to him?
And we sat down.
I'm like here's what I would doto change that perception
around SEO take it or leave it.
And they said like, let's takeit and let's do this.
(28:44):
So it was a real nice cohesionI've never been.
I've never experienced beforewhere the product side and the
marketing side really workedhand in hand on things together.
There was a real back and forth.
I would go to the communityit's my first role at Wix Take
feedback, bring it to the team.
They would implement it.
There would be dialogue backand forth through the community.
I think it really showed theSEO where Wix was actually
(29:05):
legitimately serious aboutfixing what was wrong and not
hiding behind the fact no, therewas never any problem, nothing
to see here.
No, there was a problem, solet's fix it, kind of thing.
And that was the beginning ofjust changing the whole
narrative around Wix and SEO.
Danny Gavin (29:18):
So in a sense you were kind of Wix's Danny
Sullivan.
I don't know if you like thatcomparison, but I stole his
title.
Mordy Oberstein (29:24):
They said that we want you to be a brand
advocate.
This is where, like brandmarketing comes.
I'm like An advocate feels toosalesy for what you need.
I understand what you're tryingto say, but usually an advocate
is someone like you know thatis paying them to peddle the
product.
I don't want to be an advocate.
I'll be like the SEO communityliaison.
I forgot my exact title.
I should know that right, but Istole the liaison from Danny
(29:45):
Sullivan.
I literally stole it from him.
Danny Gavin (29:48):
Sorry, Danny, we don't have to discuss numbers,
but so those efforts of sort oftransforming Wix to be an actual
SEO machine and all the brandwork and we'll talk a little bit
more about brand marketing hasthat had a significant effect on
the bottom line?
Mordy Oberstein (30:04):
I think, enormous and it's almost
impossible to measure becausewhat we notice is that there's a
trickle down effect.
So and so Barry Schwartz, whowould never do this, goes on
Twitter and says Wix is terriblefor SEO.
It trickles down.
It trickles down to the, to thepoint where I'll call you know
what was the average Wix userback then?
The average Wix user now issomething very, very different.
(30:37):
We'll look at the product and belike I hear all these things
like Wix is not good for SEO, orsomeone writing you can see it
happening right, because someonewho's not exactly in the SEO
space but is writing an article,let's say about like is Wix
good and one of the criteria isSEO, is going to go look at what
people are saying in the SEOspace around Wix for SEO and
they see not great thing.
Then that goes into the articleand that goes out to a wider
audience.
So it's been almost liketransformational because we've
(30:59):
seen the trickle down Now thosearticles that were like the
bridge between you know some SME, you know real estate company
who wants to go on Wix and isreading an article about whether
or not Wix is good or not.
The articles they're readingshifted from saying Wix is bad
in this regard to Wix is good inthis regard.
So it's almost impossible toimagine the revenue impact
because you're talking aboutit's.
(31:21):
So I've never been involved inlike it's so wide ranging and so
far reaching and it all.
It just shows you the power ofcommunity and it all starts with
this like little SEO communityand what they say, kind of thing
.
Danny Gavin (31:33):
And it is so powerful because, you know, most
companies don't get that chanceto like reinvent themselves
right.
It's hard, no, no, super hard,so it's very painful.
It's pretty cool how Wix wasand is able to do it, you know.
Mentioning brand, let's talkabout brand marketing and SEO.
Why do you feel that SEO needsto adopt or embrace the former?
(31:53):
And I guess we should start offwith the definition.
Mordy Oberstein (31:54):
Brand marketing is one of these like ethereal
terms.
It means like so many differentthings and if you're a designer
, what brand means to you isvisual design and tone and logo
and blah, blah, blah.
And to me, like that's notbrand right, but I'm not saying
it's not like it just be beinglike, you know, like an asshat,
like that's not brand.
Brand to me has to do with the.
It's the intersection, it'sabout it's associative
(32:15):
connection between your identityand your audience's identity
who you are, who your audienceis, what you provide in terms of
, in terms of who you are andwhat they need.
And the intersection of that,where you overlap, is, is brand.
It's what you exude out andwhat's received in by the
audience is brand and that'svery conceptual, it's very
(32:38):
existential.
It's why I like brand and it'svery, very powerful, why I think
SEOs need it.
I think SEOs always needed itand the conversation kind of got
renewed I don't know if theaudience is familiar with this
or not like the whole Googleleaks that happened a few months
ago, where there was an APIcall and all of a sudden the
(32:59):
algorithm got leaked.
It didn't really get leaked,but we saw things in there, like
perhaps Google's looking atmentions across the web.
So it's not just links, it'show often your brand is being
mentioned.
Or, for example, if people areclicking on the web, clicking on
you from results, now if you'rea familiar brand, you'll get
more clicks, so brand now comesin.
(33:20):
So it kind of renewed thiswhole conversation around brand
and SEO.
But all the old school, no, no,no.
Brand and SEO have always beenwhatever it's super powerful,
because forget all of that.
The web itself is fundamentallychanging in my opinion.
You can disagree with me.
I'm not offended.
A lot of things I say arecompletely not true, but I think
(33:42):
this is true.
The web is changing and peopleare looking for something that's
much more connective.
I think you see this withpeople going to TikTok to get
information.
Or you see this with Googledidn't pull evil experience out
of its rear end.
It saw a trend because Google'sgot a massive amount of data
where people are looking forthat kind of content.
(34:04):
So Google's like that's wherewe're going to go with this
thing.
There's a shift to peoplewanting authentic experiences
from their web content.
I think web content has becomemore conversational.
I think brands who, from abrand marketing point of view,
if you're a big brand out there.
If you can be moreconversational, that would do
you well.
They're very hesitant to dothat, which I think is a big
(34:25):
mistake, but fine, if that'swhere the web is going.
They're looking for a much moreauthentic kind of experience.
They're looking, for example, Ithink, not to be nudged into
the conversion right.
So being top of mind becomesmuch more important.
I want autonomy in my buyerjourney.
I don't want to feel like I hita landing page and like click
here, buy now, get this now.
(34:47):
That's like 1970s used carcommercial kind of thing.
If I'm looking to have thatcontrol over my buyer journey,
so then me coming to you whenI'm ready becomes much more
important, which is obviously abrand awareness play.
If the entire web is shiftingin this direction which I am a
little bit biased into thinkingthat it is because I do brand
marketing then SEO, ppc, whoeveryou are, you need to understand
(35:10):
brand marketing, because that'swhere the web is going and
forgetting, like you know,diving into the nuanced
implications of that.
It's self-evident if that's thedirection of where the web is
heading.
If you're not in line with thatmindset because brand is a
mindset, in my opinion you'regoing to get left behind.
So that's why top level.
I think it's super importantfor SEOs.
Danny Gavin (35:31):
And then I guess, to dumb it down a bit, what
would be an example of SEO withbrand marketing in mind or SEO
without brand marketing in?
Mordy Oberstein (35:39):
mind.
I'm an SEO, I don't care whathappens on social media.
Do whatever you want to do onsocial media.
Google doesn't care aboutsocial media.
Okay, google's a moth andGoogle will be attracted to they
will have the largest digitallight.
And if you're getting tractionon social media people are
sharing your stuff.
They're then maybe you knowmentioning that in an article or
(36:00):
doing a.
Rand Fish has got a great videoabout this, about how, like,
most traffic comes from Google.
So I won't be on social becausemost of it comes from Google.
Yeah, but you're forgetting thefact that they saw you on
Google and then Googled you tofind you and find your product
or your service after the fact.
So the traffic may be directlyfrom Google but, to borrow a
philosophical remarist title,that's just the material cause,
(36:23):
that's like the immediate cause,like the actual, like efficient
cause behind the whole thingwas they've seen you on social.
Social plays a huge role ingetting momentum, getting you
know people, getting to search,doing branded searches for you,
and there's a whole Googlepatent about Google's looking at
branded search.
Like Google's not stupid.
Like if Google knows likepeople are typing in Nike shoes,
nike shoes, nike shoes.
(36:43):
There must be a connectionbetween Nike and shoes.
So anytime you're going to seesomething for shoes, we'll rank
Nike Obviously oversimplifyingthat.
But a lot of that brand buildingthat ties into search that way
comes from doing things onsocial, comes from content
marketing practice comes frombeing out there at conferences
and getting momentum andtraction and positioning and
having an identity and peopleknowing about you and people
(37:06):
thinking about you a certain wayand then people interacting
with you a certain way.
Knowing about you and peoplethinking about you a certain way
and then people interactingwith you a certain way.
All of that plays into howpeople go about searching for
you on Google, what they'researching for, how they're
interacting with you on GoogleIf they see you on the SERP and
then say, nope, that brand sucks.
So it comes into play so manyways.
(37:26):
Social for me, is one of thebiggest, most obvious ways that
building up your brand on social, getting that brand momentum on
social positioning yourselfbecause social is such an easy
way to position your branddirectly and I'm not saying it's
a direct ranking fact, that'snot what I'm saying directly
plays a role in what your SEOmomentum will look like.
(37:46):
Also, by the way you see this,with big brands, seo is like oh,
big brands always rank foreverything.
Google's biased towards bigbrands.
They're not biased towards bigbrands, they just have the
biggest digital light because ofthe brand marketing that
they're doing.
Danny Gavin (37:57):
So what about the small businesses who don't have
the budget?
And I know you're saying it'snot like it's a ranking factor,
but what do these startups orsmall businesses?
How can they still be effectiveon Google when brand is so
important?
Mordy Oberstein (38:11):
So that's.
I look at it almost like acomplete opposite, like brand is
the equalizer that helps thesesmall businesses.
If I'm a small business, Idon't necessarily have like a
huge amount of money to, youknow, hire 10 content writers
and five link builders and blah,blah, blah, but I can go to the
local, you know, you know fair,and sell my pies and meet other
people and gain momentum, thattrend that that offline
(38:35):
translates to online.
Right, I met so and so.
Now they link to me.
I met, or I met so and so, andnow, like we're doing a
collaboration together, I'mgoing to do an interview on his
podcast about pie making.
Brand is the equalizer that,without a big budget, still lets
you gain momentum.
Just need to think about it alittle bit differently.
Danny Gavin (38:53):
I like that.
Do you have any examples of SEOworking well with brand
marketing?
Mordy Oberstein (38:57):
I don't know if I have a particular example.
I do think, though, like one ofthe things that you're going to
start, I think, hopefullyseeing is like brands, like I
was looking at the other day youhave like Nike versus New
Balance, and how many AIoverviews are they getting?
So, yes, some of it's going tobe like overlap with organic
(39:18):
results, nike's ranking they getinto the AI overview, but a lot
of what LLMs do is entity-based.
If, around the topic, you'rethe known entity, right, so I'm
going to put you in therebecause you're the quantifiable
entity that I'm aware of aroundthis topic.
So that's something where Ifeel like we prime for a case
study about how brand impactsSEO, because all of that LLM
awareness from across the webcomes fundamentally.
(39:40):
It can come from contentdistribution I'm not saying it
can't, but it fundamentallycomes from good brand building.
So that would be something Iwould love to see somebody do a
case study on that as the AAoverview data becomes a little
bit more mature, kind of thing.
Yeah, I agree.
Danny Gavin (39:54):
Let's move a little bit away from SEO and let's
talk about performance marketing.
Can you explain the tensionthat exists between performance
and brand marketing?
Mordy Oberstein (40:01):
Yeah.
So performing and SEO is verymuch a performance kind of
marketing thing.
Right, you're trying to gettraffic.
Or if you're doing CRL, right,you want to get the conversion.
If you're doing PPC, you'retrying to get a click.
If you're in social media,you're trying to get a like and
a repost, or whatever it is.
So, for lack of a better way ofdefining it, performance
(40:21):
marketing wants actions to takeplace and wants them to happen
immediately, and it wants themto happen in volume, because
that's how you're gettingmeasured and no one's got the
patience to wait for you, right?
I think the tension doesn'texist because of the
practitioners.
I don't think the SEO isthinking this way or the PPC
person is thinking this waynecessarily.
I think the thing is we can seelevels telling them to think
(40:41):
this way, like we must getresults right now, and that's
generally because people areimpatient.
It's almost like a kid, likeimmediate gratification.
If I can have immediategratification versus
gratification down the line, Iwill take the immediate
gratification, becauseperformance marketing doesn't
have to be this way, but it is.
A performance marketer couldsay I'm going to sacrifice the
(41:02):
immediate performance of thisproject, whatever it is I'm
doing for the long-termsustainable growth that will
provide me down the line.
Danny Gavin (41:10):
But we don't.
I feel like, as digitalmarketers, performance marketers
we have like these big targetson our back.
Like man, if you're digitalmarketing, you're able to
measure everything, and if youcan't, then it's over.
That's the whole thing.
Mordy Oberstein (41:21):
If I can measure it, yeah, if I can
measure it.
If it's not happening right now, then it must be bad.
But that's a false equation.
If I can measure it, it doesn'tmean that it's not happening
right now that's bad.
Maybe I'm just setting myselfup in the future.
Yeah, everyone performs smart,has a target on their back
because of that, which puts themat odds with brand, with what I
would call genuine brandmarketing.
Because genuine brand marketingyou're building up associations
(41:43):
and any association it takes anenormous amount of setup and
then it takes an enormous amountof time.
Right, like if you had a badexperience at one time at
McDonald's, you're not going toassociate it as like bad, unless
it was like catastrophic.
But if you keep going back,you're like this Happy Meal is
not so happy.
You're going to build up anassociation.
(42:04):
So brand, by definition, is way,way, way, way, way different of
a mindset than performance.
You're really like the way Idescribe it is you're not even
planting seeds that will convert.
You're like you're a farmersowing the ground that you can
eventually plant the seeds.
Like the brand marketer sowsthe ground.
The distribution marketer whichthat's not a real term plants
(42:25):
the seeds and the performancemarketer like grows the plant,
so like you're so far removedfrom the actual conversion to a
certain extent which, by the way, brand marketers don't have to
be I think like momentum is agreat equalizer.
If you can show you're buildingmomentum with your marketing,
with your brand marketing, it'svery clear to see like how that
will tie into performance.
So there is a way to bridge thegap.
(42:45):
But in terms of brand versusperformance as a as a as a
tension thing, there's a naturaltension there because the
mindsets and the focus are justvery, very different.
Danny Gavin (42:55):
Do you think it's the job of agencies or it could
even be internal teams that whenthey get the marching orders,
hey, it's all about performance,performance, performance.
To try to find a way to starteducating a pie better and
finding a way to include tostart educating a pie better and
finding a way to include,especially now in 2024, when you
know, potentially, cookies aregoing away and tracking is
(43:15):
harder.
What's your opinion on that?
Mordy Oberstein (43:17):
I'd say it's an education issue plus a results
issue.
The stakeholders, whether it bethe client or the decision
maker, whether it be an internalteam, they don't really want to
hear it.
So you can educate as much asyou want, but if the other side
doesn't want to hear it, you'retalking to a wall.
And sometimes it takes a littlebit of education and a little
bit of like.
(43:37):
You know, like the ceiling, thesky falling in, to make a
decision happen.
Like wait a second.
Like we're not converting theway we used to.
Oh, let's go ask theperformance market what's going
on?
They're like we don't know.
And the performance marketwhat's going on?
They're like we don't know.
And the brand's like yeah, Iknow what's going on.
Like user behavior has changed,user sentiment has changed,
content consumption trends havechanged.
(43:57):
You're just out of sync withyour audience right now.
Let me show you how to fix this.
And like, when they run throughall the options, try to the
quick fix on the performance andit's not working.
You know what that brand dudetold me like a couple of months
ago.
Maybe he's got something likethat.
So it's like the educationplants the seed when the
performance stops working andthey can't figure it out that
they'll come back to you and belike okay, what do you got for
me now?
That's how I, that's my utopiaof how it'll work.
Danny Gavin (44:20):
That makes sense.
The question is can you make,can you speed that up?
But sometimes you can't.
Mordy Oberstein (44:26):
That like how quickly they're going to drop
you.
Danny Gavin (44:28):
Guys, can you please drop them a little
quicker, so that we can getbranded back.
Mordy Oberstein (44:32):
You should be advocating for your stop buying
our product.
Danny Gavin (44:35):
Oh man, this has been great.
All right, let's quickly getinto our lightning round.
We're going to talk about threecategories, so number one,
philosophy.
Mordy Oberstein (44:41):
Brand marketing comes up for philosophy right,
being existential, havingidentity, knowing who you are,
but making sure it's meaningful.
Being meaningful, right, Likewe're all looking, like I think
we're all looking for something.
We don't know what it is, andthat thing is meaning and I'm
not going to get into like,where do you find meaning?
I'll leave that for you tofigure out Whether you're doing
brand marketing or whetheryou're doing personal marketing.
Finding meaning is an endeavorthat doesn't get discussed.
Danny Gavin (45:03):
Sports and I know you're wearing a certain cap
from Houston, Texas.
I don't know if we need tomention anything like that oh,
let me get my trash can.
Mordy Oberstein (45:10):
Dude, Let me get my trash can.
Danny Gavin (45:14):
Oh, that's awesome, oh God.
Mordy Oberstein (45:15):
I didn't know you were an.
Oh, I never would have come onthe podcast.
That'd be funny, I should haveworked.
Danny Gavin (45:19):
I'm a big.
Oh yeah, it's actually.
Should we just?
Mordy Oberstein (45:24):
Oh man, for those who don't know, the Astros
cheated and we lost the ALCSbecause of it.
Aaron Judge lost an MVP becauseof it.
The Dodgers lost the WorldSeries out of it.
But I'm a big baseball fan.
I love the Yankees.
I grew up in the heyday ofYankees winning every year, to
the point where now they lose agame.
(45:45):
I'm like, oh, they're trash,they're horrible.
What's going on?
When we had Derek Jeter, we wonevery single day.
Danny Gavin (45:50):
Yeah, it's hard because we're about the same age
.
We grew up in a very Yankee protime, so it's been a tough
couple.
Mordy Oberstein (45:57):
Yeah, evil empire.
Danny Gavin (45:58):
Yeah, tough couple of years.
Mordy Oberstein (46:00):
Now you're having the glory days and not
having the tough couple of years.
Danny Gavin (46:03):
Yeah, we're enjoying it.
It's worth it.
All right, and finally, coffeeor whiskey, or both.
Mordy Oberstein (46:09):
Both.
So I try not to drink as muchas I used to.
I love single malt scotch.
I feel it's also very Jewish,very and coffee and, as someone
who moved from the US to aEuropean-style country, I don't
know what the hell is espressocrap.
Give me a regular drip coffee.
I will literally come back whenI go to the States.
(46:30):
I don't know what the hell isthis espresso crap.
Give me a regular drip coffee.
I will literally come back whenI go to the States with a half
a suitcase full of ground coffee.
Danny Gavin (46:37):
If anyone wants to send a gift, a nice case of
Maxwell House I think would begood for you.
Mordy Oberstein (46:43):
A little higher up than Maxwell House.
But I tell my father, do noteven think about stepping foot
in my house until you make sureyou have a bag of coffee in your
, and then I make him open it up, hand it over.
Okay, now you can stay here forsix weeks.
That's a good entry fee.
Danny Gavin (46:59):
Well, I know we've hit the top of the hour, morty,
this has been so awesome.
I don't think I've laughed thismuch in an episode.
It's been a huge pleasure.
Mordy Oberstein (47:06):
Best compliment ever.
Danny Gavin (47:07):
Thank you for being a guest on the Digital
Marketing Mentor and thank you,listeners, for tuning into the
Digital Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Thank you for listening to theDigital Marketing Mentor podcast
.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, spotify orwherever you listen to your
(47:29):
podcasts, for more marketingmentor magic.
See you next time.
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