November 20, 2024 • 45 mins
Katy Katz, Head of Digital Marketing and E-Commerce at Basic Fun!, discusses how mentorship, including her mother's early influence, shaped her career and approach to continuous learning in marketing. She emphasizes balancing creativity with data, fostering collaboration, and setting healthy boundaries to build effective growth-driven teams.
Episode Highlights:
- Katy says traditional and non-traditional mentorship has always been incredibly important to her, and attributes her dedication to continuous learning in digital marketing from one of her earliest mentors, her mother. She values relationships that allow for mutual growth and learning, which she applies in her role as a leader.
- Her unique approach to marketing blends creativity with a data-driven mindset. This balance is critical because she leverages data for e-commerce while fostering creativity in toy marketing.
- Katy says it’s easier to set boundaries when working at an agency than in-house because the former always has a clearly defined contract.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Gavin (00:05):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Hello everyone, I'm Danny Gavin, founder of Optige, marketing
(00:27):
Professor and the host of theDigital Marketing Mentor Today's
a very special guest, katieKatz, who is the head of digital
marketing and e-commerce atBasic Fun.
Basic Fun develops and marketsenjoyable, innovative and
educational toys for kids.
They market toys made by FisherPrice, classics, k'nex, pound
Puppies, lightbrite and so manymore.
Katie has also worked atagencies as VP of Account
(00:49):
Strategy and Director of AccountStrategy and a number of other
roles.
She's a highly regardedinternational speaker, although
not doing as much these days,but we'll get into it.
She's also a former writer forSearch Engine Journal and has
been a guest on many of the mostpopular digital marketing
podcasts in the US.
How are you, katie?
Katy Katz (01:06):
I'm doing great.
I'm so happy to be talking withyou, Danny.
We've been friends for a while.
This is exciting for me too.
Danny Gavin (01:12):
Yes.
So, for those who don't know,katie used to live in Houston
and then she moved out east toFlorida, so we haven't seen each
other as much, but definitely aspecial connection and it's
wonderful that we're getting totalk today.
Yes, okay, so let's jump rightin.
So, katie, where did you go toschool and what did you study?
Katy Katz (01:30):
Oh boy, I studied art history and entrepreneurial
management for my undergraduatedegree.
I went to the University ofMinnesota.
I wanted to work in an artmuseum or an art gallery was my
original goal, but I also wantedto make sure that I made money,
(01:50):
so I was very worried aboutthat, and so I went to the
business school as well.
And then I was really glad thatI did, because I graduated in
2008 from college, which waswhen the Great Recession was,
and so it was not really a hottime for art.
(02:11):
It was a very practical time.
Funnily enough, my first jobout of school was in toys and
had a kind of sales andmarketing entry-level role in
toys a kind of sales andmarketing entry-level role in
toys and then moved on toRasmussen College because I was
able to get my master's degreecovered working for Rasmussen
(02:33):
College and that was reallyimportant to me to get a
graduate degree.
So I have my MBA in marketingand now I have found my way back
into toys.
Danny Gavin (02:41):
Wow, that is crazy.
So, outside of early toys, whatother experiences would you say
inside and outside of collegethat really were impactful in
directing your path today?
Katy Katz (02:52):
When it comes to education, that has always been
very important to me.
My parents are both very highlyeducated.
They have social workbackgrounds, so my mom was a
high school principal.
That definitely directed theway that I view education and
prioritize it.
I think, working in marketing,it is important to be constantly
(03:16):
learning and growing andadapting, especially in digital
marketing, so I place a heavyimportance there.
I didn't anticipate landing inmarketing, though.
What's funny is a lot of mycareer aptitude tests and things
either went to minister orrabbi or marketing.
(03:38):
Those were the two top choicesfor me.
I think that the art historyinterest definitely matches that
first one.
Then I was worried aboutmarketing because when I was
growing up it seemed like it wasthe catch-all place for people
to go if they didn't know whattype of business they wanted to
do, and I didn't want that to bethe reason I selected it.
(04:03):
But it just kept pulling meback in and I love the
psychology base of it and theexcitement of it, and I am
especially once I discovereddigital marketing and all of the
data involved with it.
I am a huge data and analyticsgirl and so that kept me.
Danny Gavin (04:23):
Now I know why we gel so well, because I'm an
ordained rabbi and a marketer,so that's hilarious.
I never knew that about you.
Katy Katz (04:32):
That's so funny.
I guess we've never talkedabout that aspect, but they go
really well together if youthink about it, you really kind
of are a marketer as a rabbi.
Danny Gavin (04:43):
I'll tell you a funny story.
I was just in a pitch to alarge grocery chain out west.
You know sometimes I mention itin like my calls and sometimes
I don't.
I did and it was awesomebecause the CEO of the company
she has her like master's intheology and like we connected.
I was like, ooh, I'm glad Imentioned that.
It was a good idea.
Yes, you never know what thatconnection is going to be Katie,
(05:06):
any professors back then thatwere maybe mentors or people
that it's like, ah, like theyreally helped me.
Katy Katz (05:14):
At the University of Minnesota there were definitely
several professors that werevery impactful for me.
One who stood out was ProfessorAlan Fine, who I stayed in
contact with many years aftercollege.
He also was involved inpolitics and so in the business
school he really led from sortof that lens again, also kind of
(05:37):
that orator type of person.
I looked to him for many waysin professional career going
once I started working but alsojust continued up that
conversation.
He ended up writing a book indifferent ways that we
communicated going forward and Ihaven't spoken to him in a
while but absolutely he was ahuge impactful person on the
(06:02):
early part of my career.
Danny Gavin (06:03):
All right.
So, katie, how would you definea mentor?
Katy Katz (06:06):
I think that oftentimes we think of a mentor
as somebody who has walked verymuch further along in the path
than we have and that we canthen look up to and follow in
footsteps that they'veidentified.
But what I have found as I haveapproached the middle years of
(06:29):
my life is that there are manynon-traditional mentorship
relationships that are veryimpactful for me and I don't
like to pigeonhole it into thatkind of traditional definition.
Many of the kind of leadingrelationships at this point in
my life sometimes are people whoare early in their career but
(06:52):
just have different experiencesand we can kind of learn, teach
and grow together, and I findthat to be very rewarding for
both sides.
Danny Gavin (07:03):
That's a very fresh perspective.
I love it.
So let's jump down memory laneand let's go through some of
your most influential mentors.
So let's talk about your momfirst as being your most
influential mentor.
Katy Katz (07:14):
So my mom is.
I've had an emotional week soI'm gonna try to get through
this without getting emotional.
My mom absolutely impressed thevalue of mentorship for both my
sister and I from a young age,as she worked in school
districts and then later becamea high school principal and she
(07:38):
was very involved in thecommunity in Wisconsin and led a
program called Bridges whichwas for at-risk students and I
have very early memories of herup on the stage leading these
big groups and initiatives andreally helping the community out
and seeing how impactful thatwas on the lives of the people
(08:01):
who benefited from it andfeeling that pride for her but
also feeling like that there wasa torch.
You know almost that it wasimportant part of just how I was
raised and who she was raisingme to be, and so it's just sort
of always been part of my life.
Was very involved in BigBrothers and Big Sisters in high
(08:21):
school and had kind ofdeveloped early connection that
way and did different groups andorganizations throughout school
.
I was in Teens Against TobaccoYouth, which was a group that
worked on policies to removetobacco from restaurants, which
(08:43):
was a thing back 100,000 yearsago when I was in high school
and then continued on indifferent programs like that.
I was a camp counselor, newstudent counselor in college,
new student weekend, and reallyhad a lot of benefit from the
first side of that.
(09:03):
It helped me adjust to college,and so I wanted to give back and
share in that same way, andreally that's how my path has
evolved.
I benefited from bosses that Iworked with early in my career.
One of them was Josh Broughton,who he really I attribute a lot
(09:24):
of my interest in speaking tohim.
He encouraged all of us to getout and blog and speak even when
we felt like we didn't haveanything to say.
That's how we met people withinmarketing in our professional
career who helped us advance andmove further along to our goals
, and so again, I wanted to giveback and share those skills in
(09:49):
any way that I could and joineddifferent boards and
organizations within thecommunities I've been in as a
result of that.
So it's been this sort of likestepping each time.
You know that the differentpeople in my life showed me how
those relationships can be ofbenefit and brought value to me,
(10:10):
and then I wanted to share thatand pay it forward.
Danny Gavin (10:13):
I love what you mentioned about your mom and
just the way that you grew upand really giving back to people
and being involved Like it's.
So what a special upbringing.
You know there's this generalconcept that people are happier
when they're giving right and Ithink living in that environment
really says a lot and a bigblessing so cool, yes.
Katy Katz (10:33):
Yes, very fortunate.
Danny Gavin (10:34):
So I know you spoke at a lot of conferences.
You've mentioned also thatyou've met some of your mentors
while speaking.
Any personalities orindividuals that you feel from
the conference speaking circuitthat to you are mentors.
Katy Katz (10:48):
There are so many that I would love to list off.
I think one of the cool thingsabout the digital marketing
community is that it really is.
People understand the value ofthe connections because of the
work that we do.
You will find that they're muchmore approachable than you
would expect.
(11:09):
We almost give digitalmarketing speakers a celebrity
status.
I think any industry thatyou're in you have this super
fan.
I remember the first time I sawRand Fishkin speak.
I was like he's brilliant and Ijust want to hear everything he
says and soak it all up and Ican't get enough of it, which I
(11:30):
think we all felt, which was whyWhiteboard Wednesdays was so
popular.
It's a connecting discipline,digital marketing, and so a lot
of the early mentors I had I metthrough that definitely, and
some of them are actually reallystill kind of on a peer basis.
Pernoverge is another one who Ilearned.
(11:53):
You start to hear them speakand you just you can hear the
intelligence oozing out of themand you're like how can I be
closer to you, hear theintelligence oozing out of them
and you're like how can I becloser to you?
And they're all so approachablethat it's easy to develop those
relationships if you just tryand reach out and then you get
cool things happen, like whenPurna wrote her book.
She sent it to me and asked meto review it and share it with
(12:15):
my community, and cool thingslike that come out of it.
Danny Gavin (12:19):
Wow, that's so cool .
Yeah, Purna was a guest on ourpodcast and I absolutely love
her as well.
Most of your marketing team now, I believe, is relatively young
, so I imagine that you inaddition to being like a boss,
but taking on a mentorship rolewith them, so let's talk a
little bit about your keys tomentoring success and how you
mentor the people under you.
Katy Katz (12:38):
We have a very young team, which has been interesting
, and I again I'm going to jumpback to Josh, because he did
such an amazing job with us.
He had a young team that hetook on when I worked at
Rasmussen College, which isbased out of Minneapolis but has
campuses around the country.
He really did an incredible jobin a large company that had
(13:01):
2,000 employees that were veryacademic and kind of focused.
He had this young digital teamthat was very different from the
rest of the company and he putan emphasis on team building and
unique reward systems that theother departments weren't using
and was thinking reallypioneering in that way and
(13:22):
thought about it differently,and I reflect on that often and
try and utilize a lot of thesimilar tactics.
In many ways, the company I'm atnow is very similar.
We have a lot of established,very talented people in the
different departments and thenour department is very young.
We do a lot more escape roomsand different things to stay
(13:45):
engaged and connected with eachother.
It's very important to me.
I think, that our teamfunctions much better when we're
like kind of moving as one andfeel very connected and I don't
you know, it's not alwaysnecessarily as important for
other roles and areas.
Danny Gavin (14:03):
That's from a team perspective, but what about on
an individual perspective?
How do you tailor yourmentorship approach to different
individuals?
Katy Katz (14:11):
I really kind of jump back to that, what I was saying
earlier about non-traditionalrelationships relationships.
I personally find that, andmaybe it's partly because of
this, I like to be in a morelearn-teach relationship with
people that I'm learning from,because I am a very curious and
(14:33):
have lots of thoughts and ideas,and I like to have it be more
of like a Socratic dialogue, andso I approach the mentorship
relationships with youngerpeople the same way that I'm
looking to have it be a dialogue.
And what's important to youright now, what are you looking
for to grow and how can we havea conversation about that?
(14:57):
But also have it go both ways,because I feel that it
establishes trust when I'm alsotaking advice and listening and
hearing what somebody that I'mworking with has to offer.
I also try and open ourrelationship beyond the
discipline that maybe thementorship is focused on.
(15:18):
We are people, right.
We're whole people.
We're not just toy marketers.
So I think it's important tosee the whole person and
everything that's impactingtheir life and how that is
affecting how they are coming tothe table today.
Danny Gavin (15:36):
So because it sounds like your mentorship
style, leadership style, is likea dialogue.
I'd love to get your opinion onthis, because we had this issue
recently in our agency.
Someone felt that they weren'tbeing heard, so they stopped
giving ideas and, like theirmanager was kind of like all the
ideas that I heard were neverreally good, so it was kind of
(15:56):
like an interesting situation.
You know, how would youapproach that, where it's like
you don't want to shut peopledown because you want to hear
them, but you also need to kindof give the feedback?
I'd love your take on thatsituation.
Katy Katz (16:06):
That's a challenging part of marketing and we
absolutely face it a lot,especially with creative
endeavors.
It's funny we were just talkingabout this today Something
about the process of creatingsomething.
You feel like you're putting alittle bit of yourself into it.
People take feedback verypersonally and it's hard not to
(16:29):
Even 20 years into it.
It still is sometimes you face.
That challenge is I have threekids, so the process of being a
parent has taught me so muchabout how to hold space for
people's emotions during afeedback loop.
(16:54):
I think that that is a big partof it, because a lot of what
we've found on our team is thatpeople get discouraged from
continuing to give their ideas.
Negative feedback has a heavierweight to it, right?
That's kind of psychologicallyknown that we weigh negative
feedback more heavily andpositive feedback it doesn't
(17:15):
carry the same magnitude.
We don't hear it as much, andso you have to sort of
counteract that it as much, andso you have to sort of
counteract that you have to givea little extra space, for
you're safe to receive thisnegative feedback.
I'm not viewing you as negative.
This is a learning experiencefor both of us and there's
(17:36):
something for both of us to gainfrom this, also looking back at
look how much you've grown fromthe last time that we've gone
through this and how that'shelped you and how your product
in the end came out so muchbetter when we did it, when we
worked on this together, andthen kind of showing also some
of your vulnerabilities.
That's been another way thatI've helped kind of ease that,
(18:01):
sharing mistakes that I've made,showing that I am also a human
and not just perfect.
It's something that isimportant with my kids too.
Like, oh, mom, you made thismistake before.
You also mess up.
Yes, actually I mess up all thetime.
I am a terrible mess sometimes.
(18:21):
You know we all are, and Ithink that easing that
sensitivity and making space forpeople's emotions in the
workplace is important.
Danny Gavin (18:31):
Yeah, and I think hopefully you agree that
reiterating some of those thingswhich you think are given, but
I guess when it's a difficultconversation, reiterating that
we're here to right it's not apersonal attack.
I'm sure that that helps.
Katy Katz (18:44):
Yes, exactly, and saying those things out loud,
naming it and making it clear,because I think also a lot of
times we make assumptions.
If we've said something once ortwice, that like, that's
understood.
But when you're in a heightenedemotional state or you are
feeling a little vulnerable,that's when you need to hear
(19:04):
that even more.
Danny Gavin (19:05):
Yeah, I love that, so important.
So let's pivot a bit.
Obviously, you had roots earlyin the toy industry, but what
attracted you this time aroundto leave the agency world and to
join the toy industry?
Katy Katz (19:19):
It was a really hard choice.
I was working for Terry Hoffmanat Marketing Refresh for many
years and again another personwho I really look up to and who
in many ways, has shaped themarketer that I am today,
particularly when it comes toviewing of branding and the
(19:39):
whole cycle of branding.
I couldn't be where I am rightnow with all of the lessons that
I learned from her, and it wasa very emotional decision to
move on.
Actually, a family member of myhusband's works with Basic Fun
and they had been looking tofill this role for quite some
time.
It's in Florida and we work inperson.
(20:03):
That's one of those In digitalspace we're used to very remote
positions.
We're a little bit spoiled,compared to other industries,
that our career path has had alot more flexibility in that way
, and so they had a hard timefilling this position.
And she reached out and shesaid you know, I know someone
who might be good for this roleand I met with the CEO and a few
(20:28):
others and it was a really goodfit and I had been curious
about moving in-house for awhile.
I've been in agencies for about15 years prior to that and it
was just the right place, righttime.
I really love toys.
I think that the ability towork on something that impacts
(20:50):
the lives of so many children issuch a powerful experience.
It's really very fulfilling,too, and exciting, so that also
was a big part of my decision.
Danny Gavin (21:01):
So this explains why.
So for those who are audio,they're not going to get this.
But for those watching video,Katie's got this amazing toys
behind her.
I'm like, hmm, you're mostprobably at home, but you've got
three kids, and how comeeverything looks so good?
But now I know why becauseyou're not the opposite.
You're not at home.
Katy Katz (21:15):
No, I came in.
Danny Gavin (21:17):
So now being in an in-house role, what are some of
the things maybe you miss fromthe agency life, and then also
what are like the advantages nowthat you have being in an
in-house agency because we havedifferent brand managers who are
each our clients, and then weare the execution.
Katy Katz (21:49):
Well, I almost said executioner.
No, we're not.
Sometimes we are.
We execute the work for thedifferent brands, and so many
ways it is very much like anagency relationship, so that
part is very similar.
What's different, though, isthat in a traditional agency
relationship you have a contractin place, you have an agreed
(22:13):
amount of work that you aregoing to do, and if it's out of
scope, it's very easy to havethose conversations with your
client, say this was the agreedscope.
Once you go in-house, that isnot in place anymore.
It's very much like do whateverit takes to get success.
It's harder to define thoseboundaries a little bit.
(22:35):
The expectations can be, Ifound, harder to define, and so
I've really, having come fromthe agency side, that's been a
really important thing for me totake into consideration for the
mental health of my team, thatI don't want to keep pushing
(22:57):
that expectation that there is.
You know, keep going untilyou're in the ground, everything
you can do is not reallyrealistic.
So trying to apply some ofthose concepts that we use in
agency space to have boundariesand apply them in-house- so you
don't want to be the executionerof your employees, which makes
(23:19):
a lot of sense.
Danny Gavin (23:20):
Yes, how many brands or toys are you working
with at any one time?
Katy Katz (23:25):
your team- we have several brands that are in
development, plus we have about20 established brands, so not
all of them require hands-onexperience marketing strategies
right now.
Some of them are a little moreimpulse buy type brands, and so
(23:45):
those we don't have to invest asmuch effort in.
And then you have others likeCare Bears Behind Me, or we
launched a new brand, littlestPet Shop this year that are very
intensive, and so that's wherewe've been looking at defining
for ourselves, defining whatthat scope looks like, and we've
been setting it based off ofthe revenue potential, which
(24:08):
kind of makes sense for a way todefine those boundaries and how
to define up our time so thatwe can be more systematic and
strategic about where we'reinvesting and have a system
around it.
Danny Gavin (24:21):
You and I I think we're about the same age we
found out about toys because wehad TV and there were
commercials on.
You know, after when we gothome there was, you know, shows
after school, saturday morning,sunday.
You know I didn't have cablegrowing up so I didn't have as
much, but you know very much intraditional and we knew all
about it from the commercialsno-transcript, put the product
(25:06):
on the shelf at Toys R Us andyou were set Like that was all
you had to do.
Katy Katz (25:11):
The job was very easy , and now it's much more
challenging.
Kids are very divided.
If they're on YouTube, they'reon a thousand different channels
and influencers for YouTube.
And even if they're on YouTube,they're on a thousand different
channels and influencers forYouTube.
And even if they have a couplethat they are sort of loyal to
and really trust, they're maybewatching little snippets of
(25:32):
information from them and thenthe next day it's gone out of
their minds.
So you really do have to havethis sort of continual presence.
And then, on top of that, thereare rules and regulations around
marketing to children, as thereshould be, because, first of
all, they don't have their owndisposable income, but also,
(25:53):
just like for the best mentalhealth of our children, we don't
want to bombard them withchoices that are not appropriate
for them to be presented with.
So we really take all of thatvery seriously in the toy
industry.
That's why there are so manyregulations, to make sure that
it is.
(26:13):
That's why you see educationalcontent.
There's a new term that isbeing thrown around in this
space, mes mesh, which is aboutmental and emotional health.
The toy industry is actuallyvery thoughtful about how we
incorporate the best earlychildhood education into our
(26:38):
content and programming, whichis a really interesting blend of
my personal interests with mymarketing experience, and that's
been very rewarding for me toget to work on.
Danny Gavin (26:51):
Yeah, because it's not just about the sales and the
bottom line, which is important, but you're actually doing it
in like a I don't use the termethical way, but I don't know,
it's just more meaningful way.
Katy Katz (27:00):
Yeah, and you kind of have to Itially, it's required,
it's expected from parents.
It is also the most effectiveway to use content marketing
with kids because they'relearning from it and growing
from it, and it's veryinteresting With Littlest Pet
Shop.
That brand came out in the 90sfrom Hasbro and kids started
(27:23):
creating stories through playingwith the pets and they would
use the pets to work throughsocial situations that were
challenging for them byanthropomorphizing the pets and
having them work through thosesocial dynamics.
Then, when YouTube came out,they started creating content
(27:45):
around the stories that theywould tell through their pets,
and what's really interesting tome as a marketer is the bond
that that created for them withthe toy that now Gen Z, who is
in their 20s, as we know, andwere collectors of Littlest Pet
(28:05):
Shop when they were kids,they're still creating YouTube
content.
They still have the samepassion and connection for the
brand and so much of that isthrough that content creation
process.
So we really take that intoconsideration, too when we're
thinking about bringing the nextgeneration into the brand.
Danny Gavin (28:25):
So how do you balance the need for creativity
in toy marketing with thedata-driven nature of e-commerce
?
Katy Katz (28:33):
Oh boy, that's one of my whole life questions.
Danny Gavin (28:36):
Is that the million dollar question?
Katy Katz (28:38):
Yes, it's like that art history degree and the
business degree.
They're both in there and youhave to balance them both.
I tend to lean more towards thedata and logic side, which is
kind of funny because I love artand creativity.
(28:59):
From a personal perspective, myroles in work have more heavily
been data-driven.
I've did a lot of SEO andpay-per-click ads and have been
more heavily on the data side.
So I think that's impacted mypersonal leaning.
But the creation process isiterative.
(29:20):
It can't be 100% data-drivenand you have to find that
balance a little bit.
But that's been helpful for mehaving that background,
especially when I'mcommunicating with the creative
part of our team, becausecreatives don't always
necessarily want to use the datafor their starting point and
(29:43):
having both experiences hasdefinitely helped me with those
conversations of how you can usedata points as a starting like,
kind of like a writing prompt,without it destroying the
creative process.
Danny Gavin (29:58):
How do you stay ahead of changing consumer
behavior, especially when youraudience is both parents and
children?
Katy Katz (30:03):
Also the million dollar question.
I think we're all working onthat right now and I kind of
jump back to that continuouslearning and also having like a
really smart team around you,because there is no one person
who's going to be able to staywith all of the trends and
changes and how rapidlyeverything is changing right now
(30:24):
, and so I'm a firm believer inhaving different point people
for different areas and thenteaching each other.
So we have a person who'sreally invested in influencer
marketing coming back to theteam and sharing what they've
learned and making sure that weall are growing with them.
(30:46):
Having a point person fore-commerce to come back to the
team.
Having that point person fordesign trends that's how we're
continuing to make sure ourwhole team is evolving and
growing and adapting together.
Danny Gavin (31:00):
Of all those different areas, do you have one
that you're more passionateabout these days, and especially
because you've done SEO and PPC?
So I know you're more of ageneralist in a way these days,
but is there something that inparticular like you know, that's
my favorite child.
Katy Katz (31:15):
I think I really love e-commerce because when I
started my career, google wasreally taking off and we were
able to start doing blogging andpull people into the website.
Josh was a huge advocate of theinbound marketing method and
(31:37):
pulling leads to your websitewith educational content so that
they were making the choice andyou weren't just like pushing
cold ads onto them.
That has really shaped how Ithink about marketing as it, you
know.
For the rest of my career, Ithink about that and apply it to
most of our strategies and Iactually still have our team
(32:00):
take the HubSpot inboundmarketing certificate the free
one that they offer when theystart just because I think
HubSpot's methods are justreally.
They've done a great jobexplaining that and showing the
value of pulling instead ofpushing.
I'm going to get back to youranswer to your question.
So I started with inboundmarketing and content creation
(32:23):
and how that pulled people intothe website and the data that
would come from that and that wecould follow them then from
lead to customer and that entirelife cycle.
Then, when e-commerce came andwe could do that on another
level, where we could run asocial media ad and then follow
them all the way to the cart andfollow up with emails and
(32:47):
convert them and upsell andcross-sell.
I really love data, so thoseopportunities of incremental
increases that you can do thatwill have a big result.
You just can't replicate thatwith brick and mortar or some of
the other areas, so that Ireally like having a clear cut
answer and be a problem that youcan solve and that the data
(33:12):
offers that.
And I think e-commerce is sucha great modality for that
because you can see every stepin the funnel.
The data tells you what'shappening and there are a lot of
easy adjustments you can makebecause everything's so visible.
Danny Gavin (33:27):
Yeah, especially when you contrast it or compare
with, like lead generation,right, for a lot of times you
know, especially in long salescycles, to see which leads
actually turn into sales.
Right, it's a lot harder andmore difficult process With
e-com.
It's a lot harder and moredifficult process With e-com.
It's a lot quicker and a lotinstantaneous and, like you said
, you can make a little changehere and that's going to make a
(33:48):
bigger change down the line.
So, going a little bit deeperinto e-com, how do you balance
your opinion on Amazon versusyour own store?
I know there's tremendousadvantages of being on Amazon,
but then there's also a push fora lot of Amazon sellers.
Let's create our own brand,create our own Shopify sites.
Let's see if we can get morebusiness there.
(34:10):
Love, from your perspective,how do you see the relationship
between those two?
Katy Katz (34:14):
They both have their advantages and I think,
depending on the size of yourbusiness and what your goals are
, there are different reasons todecide if you're doing both or
focusing on one or the other.
We don't actually have our own,like for basic fun, right now.
We don't have our own direct toconsumer e-commerce other than
(34:35):
through a platform like Amazonor Walmart or Target, and so
that brings some challenges.
In the agency world, when I hadclients who were Shopify sites
or other e-commerce sites, youdo have much more access to data
and you can see that fullfunnel that I was talking about.
You can get close with Amazonwith UTM tracking and different
(34:59):
tools, but it's not 100%.
So that brings some challenges,if you like pure data, but
there are so many benefitsbecause Amazon is Amazon.
It's where the consumers are.
Even just being the platform,you get a benefit from people
who are already shopping thereand adding things to their cart
(35:20):
and doing research.
A lot of people use Amazon as aresearch tool.
They're also even showing withTikTok shop now that consumers
trust Amazon so much that theywill.
Even if they see something onTikTok shop, if they're not
comfortable, they're goingstraight to Amazon and just
buying it on Amazon and they'veshown that direct correlation.
(35:43):
I know there are varyingopinions on Amazon as a big
behemoth and they control a lotof things, but I do love Amazon
for all of the benefits that itoffers, and their tools are
extensive.
You can really get pretty closeto what you can get from your
(36:03):
Shopify site through Amazon now,which is nice.
Danny Gavin (36:07):
So, with selling happening more on these
marketplaces, are you stillinternally?
Are you running Google ads,social media ads?
I guess what?
You would be pushing trafficdirectly to those platforms.
Katy Katz (36:18):
Yeah, it's interesting for us because we
are we're sort of like amiddleman in a way.
We sell our product to Targetor Amazon, they purchase the
inventory from us, but then it'sstill on us to market the
brands and make sure that itsells once it's from the shelf.
(36:38):
And that's something I didn'tnecessarily understand from
outside of this space, that Ithought, oh, if you got your
product in Target, you did it.
Good job me.
And that's not how it works atall, because Target really
expects you to be the owner ofyour brands and own the consumer
(37:01):
demand for the brand.
Some of the big retailers do,of course, have ways of
promoting themselves and gettingcustomers into the store and
different things like that, butyeah, it's absolutely nowadays
on the individual brand ownersto develop, grow and maintain
the health of their fan base.
Danny Gavin (37:21):
Do you deal with any of the brick and mortar type
of marketing, or is it purelydigital?
Katy Katz (37:28):
We do A little bit.
We have some in-marketstrategies, retail strategies,
but because we're global,essentially digital is the
fastest and most economical wayto market and that's how we kind
of end up making our decisions.
It's very much on how manyeyeballs can we get in for the
(37:55):
most affordable price ends upbeing the leading decision maker
, and then you want it to bequality.
So is making sure and measuring.
Is this working?
Is it converting?
Because if you're getting 10million eyeballs but then
nobody's purchasing, it's notuseful that it's so cheap.
Danny Gavin (38:14):
It's time for our lightning round.
We're going to talk aboutfavorite toys growing up.
I think let's both do it, ifthat's okay.
Katy Katz (38:20):
Yes please, I would love to hear that.
Yeah, let's both do it, ifthat's okay.
Danny Gavin (38:23):
Yes, I think it'd be cool for both of us.
I would love to hear that.
Yeah, cool.
So I think you should start forladies first, and also and um,
but yeah, what are your topthree toys that you enjoyed?
Katy Katz (38:31):
I had.
I was definitely a barbie kid.
We had my sister and I wouldhave very intricate worlds set
up for our barbies and itreached a point actually that my
sister's rules and worlds thatwere so defined and specific
that it became a problem for ourrelationship.
(38:53):
For a couple of years we had totake a pause from playing
together because we both werevery opinionated and thoughtful
in these worlds that we directedand created and that was a huge
part for sure for me ofchildhood play.
I also had a light bright and Ialways wanted to be a teacher
(39:14):
when I was a kid, so a lot of mytoys were weird for a kid.
I had a lot of workbooks andschool supplies and just books I
love to read and chalkboardsand I also would make my sister
sit and listen to my lessons, sothat might have had something
to do with art.
She had rules for the Barbiesand I had rules for mathematical
(39:39):
equations and we were like,okay, let's take a break here
and reset.
Danny Gavin (39:46):
I love that.
I know my mom.
She always tells me about howshe would do the same thing,
like sit her brother down and tomake sure that she was teaching
him like math in school.
So that's really awesome.
Katy Katz (39:58):
How about you?
What were your favorites?
Danny Gavin (40:00):
Ooh, so I loved Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
You know I had the couple thatI was able to get.
One of my really good friendshad like everything, so I was
like at her house all the timeplaying.
I remember some of the like thevans and being able to like
shoot out pizzas, so that wasalways really fun.
Katy Katz (40:16):
I remember that one my friend Ben had it and we
would play with that all thetime, with the shooting pizzas.
Danny Gavin (40:24):
I remember that one , yeah, so that was great.
You know, a little bit later onI would say middle school.
You know, maybe I'm a littlebit older, but when Power
Rangers first came out it wasstill really cool and really
loved a little bit of PowerRangers Trying to think what
else?
And Legos, you know I meanthat's like a timeless, timeless
toy.
But uh, you know, we reallyloved our Legos and the cool
part about it now is, you know,so obviously for my own children
(40:47):
we've bought Legos but then,like every once in a while they
get to go to my parents, sotheir grandparents and get to
play with the Legos that we had.
You know, I tell them storiesabout what we did.
Katy Katz (40:58):
So it's cool.
That is.
One of the coolest things isthe connection that toys make
intergenerationally like thatand the stories that you can
tell.
My mom kept a few favoriteBarbies, favorite Beanie Babies,
favorite things like that, andgives them to my kids when we go
visit.
That's really fun.
I loved Teenage Mutant NinjaTurtles too when I was a kid,
(41:18):
though I remember when I was akid we would go for walks.
I was a kid, though.
I remember when I was a kid wewould go for walks.
Every time we would pass asewer we would yell down hello,
teenage mutant Ninja Turtles.
Did you try and find them too?
Danny Gavin (41:31):
All the time and I remember so I'm Orthodox Jewish.
So on Saturday mornings, whenwe'd walk to synagogue, part of
us keeping ourselves busy wasgoing from sewer hole to sewer
hole and, like you know, yeah,it was a huge, huge.
That's so funny because that'sexactly what we did.
Katy Katz (41:50):
Yes, I just was thinking about that recently, of
how that was.
Every time it was so excitingto see a sewer, because maybe
the Ninja Turtles were in there,you don't know.
Like maybe that was the onewhere they were.
Danny Gavin (42:05):
Yeah, wow, that elicits some good memories.
Thank you, katie.
Katy Katz (42:10):
Yeah, that's one of the cool things about toys.
Danny Gavin (42:13):
We don't think about it.
But, like I said, I've got toysall around me and I've got
little figurines and it's funnyhow, you know, not everyone's
like that, but a lot of usgrowing up, we don't lose our
toys, we still love them.
So, katie, where can listenerslearn more about you and your
business?
Katy Katz (42:27):
For me.
I am on LinkedIn.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn.
I love meeting others in themarketing space and, like I said
, I have so many important partsof my growth have come from the
relationships that I've madeand I really value that
connections and I think LinkedInis a great platform to do that,
and so definitely reach out tofind me there.
(42:50):
And then, as far as basic fun,we have a website that lists all
of our different brands andtoys that we market, and so do
check it out.
We are on all of the socialsand we do lots of fun things,
and we would love to hear aboutyour favorite toys as well.
Danny Gavin (43:08):
And I'm going to put I'm going to add one to the
list, but you can still goonline and search for Katie Katz
for her old presentations.
A lot of her old decks are upand they're still really, really
good.
Katie was more of a brunetteback in those days.
Katy Katz (43:21):
Katie was more of a brunette back in those days, but
still a different person, butthat content is all still really
, really good.
Danny Gavin (43:27):
And please, god, katie, you'll get back on the
stage.
I know it's not a number onepriority, but I'm sure we're all
waiting for a comeback one ofthese days.
Katy Katz (43:34):
I'm slowly kind of tiptoeing towards that, I think
now I had two kids within twoyears, so my daughters were born
.
They are now five and four, sothey were born very close
together.
And then the global pandemichappened and so those things
(43:54):
kind of put a pause, I think, onmy outreach.
And then moving to Florida andworking in-house, so definitely
all of it kind of was theperfect catalyst to need to take
a little step back.
But I have been missing it.
I miss the community, I missthe growth that I get from
(44:19):
working with other thoughtleaders and experts in the
connections, and so I've startedreaching out a little bit more
to the South Florida InteractiveMarketing Association and
making some of those connections.
Lisa Beyer also, interestingly,was one of the people early in
my career who I met.
Her at ZenithCon in Minnesota,which I don't think that Marty
(44:44):
runs anymore, but it was a smallMinnesota conference and I met
Lisa there and she was veryinstrumental to my speaking
career.
She does a lot of work withPubCon and then she has her own
podcast.
She's another person who I'vecontinued to find myself bumping
into, and now she's right downthe street again.
(45:05):
I've actually never lived inthe same state as her, so that's
really cool.
I met with her recently andhave started sort of slowly
stepping back into the community.
Danny Gavin (45:15):
I think there's definitely room for a woman
marketing e-com, ninja, and Ithink that that place is ripe
for you.
Well, katie, thank you so muchfor being a guest on the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
This really has been enjoyable,and thank you, listeners, for
tuning into the DigitalMarketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Katy Katz (45:32):
Thanks for having me.
Danny Gavin (45:33):
Thank you for listening to the Digital
Marketing Mentor podcast.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify orwherever you listen to your
podcasts for more marketingmentor magic.
See you next time.
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Hello everyone, I'm Danny Gavin, founder of Optige, marketing
(00:27):
Professor and the host of theDigital Marketing Mentor Today's
a very special guest, katieKatz, who is the head of digital
marketing and e-commerce atBasic Fun.
Basic Fun develops and marketsenjoyable, innovative and
educational toys for kids.
They market toys made by FisherPrice, classics, k'nex, pound
Puppies, lightbrite and so manymore.
Katie has also worked atagencies as VP of Account
(00:49):
Strategy and Director of AccountStrategy and a number of other
roles.
She's a highly regardedinternational speaker, although
not doing as much these days,but we'll get into it.
She's also a former writer forSearch Engine Journal and has
been a guest on many of the mostpopular digital marketing
podcasts in the US.
How are you, katie?
Katy Katz (01:06):
I'm doing great.
I'm so happy to be talking withyou, Danny.
We've been friends for a while.
This is exciting for me too.
Danny Gavin (01:12):
Yes.
So, for those who don't know,katie used to live in Houston
and then she moved out east toFlorida, so we haven't seen each
other as much, but definitely aspecial connection and it's
wonderful that we're getting totalk today.
Yes, okay, so let's jump rightin.
So, katie, where did you go toschool and what did you study?
Katy Katz (01:30):
Oh boy, I studied art history and entrepreneurial
management for my undergraduatedegree.
I went to the University ofMinnesota.
I wanted to work in an artmuseum or an art gallery was my
original goal, but I also wantedto make sure that I made money,
(01:50):
so I was very worried aboutthat, and so I went to the
business school as well.
And then I was really glad thatI did, because I graduated in
2008 from college, which waswhen the Great Recession was,
and so it was not really a hottime for art.
(02:11):
It was a very practical time.
Funnily enough, my first jobout of school was in toys and
had a kind of sales andmarketing entry-level role in
toys a kind of sales andmarketing entry-level role in
toys and then moved on toRasmussen College because I was
able to get my master's degreecovered working for Rasmussen
(02:33):
College and that was reallyimportant to me to get a
graduate degree.
So I have my MBA in marketingand now I have found my way back
into toys.
Danny Gavin (02:41):
Wow, that is crazy.
So, outside of early toys, whatother experiences would you say
inside and outside of collegethat really were impactful in
directing your path today?
Katy Katz (02:52):
When it comes to education, that has always been
very important to me.
My parents are both very highlyeducated.
They have social workbackgrounds, so my mom was a
high school principal.
That definitely directed theway that I view education and
prioritize it.
I think, working in marketing,it is important to be constantly
(03:16):
learning and growing andadapting, especially in digital
marketing, so I place a heavyimportance there.
I didn't anticipate landing inmarketing, though.
What's funny is a lot of mycareer aptitude tests and things
either went to minister orrabbi or marketing.
(03:38):
Those were the two top choicesfor me.
I think that the art historyinterest definitely matches that
first one.
Then I was worried aboutmarketing because when I was
growing up it seemed like it wasthe catch-all place for people
to go if they didn't know whattype of business they wanted to
do, and I didn't want that to bethe reason I selected it.
(04:03):
But it just kept pulling meback in and I love the
psychology base of it and theexcitement of it, and I am
especially once I discovereddigital marketing and all of the
data involved with it.
I am a huge data and analyticsgirl and so that kept me.
Danny Gavin (04:23):
Now I know why we gel so well, because I'm an
ordained rabbi and a marketer,so that's hilarious.
I never knew that about you.
Katy Katz (04:32):
That's so funny.
I guess we've never talkedabout that aspect, but they go
really well together if youthink about it, you really kind
of are a marketer as a rabbi.
Danny Gavin (04:43):
I'll tell you a funny story.
I was just in a pitch to alarge grocery chain out west.
You know sometimes I mention itin like my calls and sometimes
I don't.
I did and it was awesomebecause the CEO of the company
she has her like master's intheology and like we connected.
I was like, ooh, I'm glad Imentioned that.
It was a good idea.
Yes, you never know what thatconnection is going to be Katie,
(05:06):
any professors back then thatwere maybe mentors or people
that it's like, ah, like theyreally helped me.
Katy Katz (05:14):
At the University of Minnesota there were definitely
several professors that werevery impactful for me.
One who stood out was ProfessorAlan Fine, who I stayed in
contact with many years aftercollege.
He also was involved inpolitics and so in the business
school he really led from sortof that lens again, also kind of
(05:37):
that orator type of person.
I looked to him for many waysin professional career going
once I started working but alsojust continued up that
conversation.
He ended up writing a book indifferent ways that we
communicated going forward and Ihaven't spoken to him in a
while but absolutely he was ahuge impactful person on the
(06:02):
early part of my career.
Danny Gavin (06:03):
All right.
So, katie, how would you definea mentor?
Katy Katz (06:06):
I think that oftentimes we think of a mentor
as somebody who has walked verymuch further along in the path
than we have and that we canthen look up to and follow in
footsteps that they'veidentified.
But what I have found as I haveapproached the middle years of
(06:29):
my life is that there are manynon-traditional mentorship
relationships that are veryimpactful for me and I don't
like to pigeonhole it into thatkind of traditional definition.
Many of the kind of leadingrelationships at this point in
my life sometimes are people whoare early in their career but
(06:52):
just have different experiencesand we can kind of learn, teach
and grow together, and I findthat to be very rewarding for
both sides.
Danny Gavin (07:03):
That's a very fresh perspective.
I love it.
So let's jump down memory laneand let's go through some of
your most influential mentors.
So let's talk about your momfirst as being your most
influential mentor.
Katy Katz (07:14):
So my mom is.
I've had an emotional week soI'm gonna try to get through
this without getting emotional.
My mom absolutely impressed thevalue of mentorship for both my
sister and I from a young age,as she worked in school
districts and then later becamea high school principal and she
(07:38):
was very involved in thecommunity in Wisconsin and led a
program called Bridges whichwas for at-risk students and I
have very early memories of herup on the stage leading these
big groups and initiatives andreally helping the community out
and seeing how impactful thatwas on the lives of the people
(08:01):
who benefited from it andfeeling that pride for her but
also feeling like that there wasa torch.
You know almost that it wasimportant part of just how I was
raised and who she was raisingme to be, and so it's just sort
of always been part of my life.
Was very involved in BigBrothers and Big Sisters in high
(08:21):
school and had kind ofdeveloped early connection that
way and did different groups andorganizations throughout school
.
I was in Teens Against TobaccoYouth, which was a group that
worked on policies to removetobacco from restaurants, which
(08:43):
was a thing back 100,000 yearsago when I was in high school
and then continued on indifferent programs like that.
I was a camp counselor, newstudent counselor in college,
new student weekend, and reallyhad a lot of benefit from the
first side of that.
(09:03):
It helped me adjust to college,and so I wanted to give back and
share in that same way, andreally that's how my path has
evolved.
I benefited from bosses that Iworked with early in my career.
One of them was Josh Broughton,who he really I attribute a lot
(09:24):
of my interest in speaking tohim.
He encouraged all of us to getout and blog and speak even when
we felt like we didn't haveanything to say.
That's how we met people withinmarketing in our professional
career who helped us advance andmove further along to our goals
, and so again, I wanted to giveback and share those skills in
(09:49):
any way that I could and joineddifferent boards and
organizations within thecommunities I've been in as a
result of that.
So it's been this sort of likestepping each time.
You know that the differentpeople in my life showed me how
those relationships can be ofbenefit and brought value to me,
(10:10):
and then I wanted to share thatand pay it forward.
Danny Gavin (10:13):
I love what you mentioned about your mom and
just the way that you grew upand really giving back to people
and being involved Like it's.
So what a special upbringing.
You know there's this generalconcept that people are happier
when they're giving right and Ithink living in that environment
really says a lot and a bigblessing so cool, yes.
Katy Katz (10:33):
Yes, very fortunate.
Danny Gavin (10:34):
So I know you spoke at a lot of conferences.
You've mentioned also thatyou've met some of your mentors
while speaking.
Any personalities orindividuals that you feel from
the conference speaking circuitthat to you are mentors.
Katy Katz (10:48):
There are so many that I would love to list off.
I think one of the cool thingsabout the digital marketing
community is that it really is.
People understand the value ofthe connections because of the
work that we do.
You will find that they're muchmore approachable than you
would expect.
(11:09):
We almost give digitalmarketing speakers a celebrity
status.
I think any industry thatyou're in you have this super
fan.
I remember the first time I sawRand Fishkin speak.
I was like he's brilliant and Ijust want to hear everything he
says and soak it all up and Ican't get enough of it, which I
(11:30):
think we all felt, which was whyWhiteboard Wednesdays was so
popular.
It's a connecting discipline,digital marketing, and so a lot
of the early mentors I had I metthrough that definitely, and
some of them are actually reallystill kind of on a peer basis.
Pernoverge is another one who Ilearned.
(11:53):
You start to hear them speakand you just you can hear the
intelligence oozing out of themand you're like how can I be
closer to you, hear theintelligence oozing out of them
and you're like how can I becloser to you?
And they're all so approachablethat it's easy to develop those
relationships if you just tryand reach out and then you get
cool things happen, like whenPurna wrote her book.
She sent it to me and asked meto review it and share it with
(12:15):
my community, and cool thingslike that come out of it.
Danny Gavin (12:19):
Wow, that's so cool .
Yeah, Purna was a guest on ourpodcast and I absolutely love
her as well.
Most of your marketing team now, I believe, is relatively young
, so I imagine that you inaddition to being like a boss,
but taking on a mentorship rolewith them, so let's talk a
little bit about your keys tomentoring success and how you
mentor the people under you.
Katy Katz (12:38):
We have a very young team, which has been interesting
, and I again I'm going to jumpback to Josh, because he did
such an amazing job with us.
He had a young team that hetook on when I worked at
Rasmussen College, which isbased out of Minneapolis but has
campuses around the country.
He really did an incredible jobin a large company that had
(13:01):
2,000 employees that were veryacademic and kind of focused.
He had this young digital teamthat was very different from the
rest of the company and he putan emphasis on team building and
unique reward systems that theother departments weren't using
and was thinking reallypioneering in that way and
(13:22):
thought about it differently,and I reflect on that often and
try and utilize a lot of thesimilar tactics.
In many ways, the company I'm atnow is very similar.
We have a lot of established,very talented people in the
different departments and thenour department is very young.
We do a lot more escape roomsand different things to stay
(13:45):
engaged and connected with eachother.
It's very important to me.
I think, that our teamfunctions much better when we're
like kind of moving as one andfeel very connected and I don't
you know, it's not alwaysnecessarily as important for
other roles and areas.
Danny Gavin (14:03):
That's from a team perspective, but what about on
an individual perspective?
How do you tailor yourmentorship approach to different
individuals?
Katy Katz (14:11):
I really kind of jump back to that, what I was saying
earlier about non-traditionalrelationships relationships.
I personally find that, andmaybe it's partly because of
this, I like to be in a morelearn-teach relationship with
people that I'm learning from,because I am a very curious and
(14:33):
have lots of thoughts and ideas,and I like to have it be more
of like a Socratic dialogue, andso I approach the mentorship
relationships with youngerpeople the same way that I'm
looking to have it be a dialogue.
And what's important to youright now, what are you looking
for to grow and how can we havea conversation about that?
(14:57):
But also have it go both ways,because I feel that it
establishes trust when I'm alsotaking advice and listening and
hearing what somebody that I'mworking with has to offer.
I also try and open ourrelationship beyond the
discipline that maybe thementorship is focused on.
(15:18):
We are people, right.
We're whole people.
We're not just toy marketers.
So I think it's important tosee the whole person and
everything that's impactingtheir life and how that is
affecting how they are coming tothe table today.
Danny Gavin (15:36):
So because it sounds like your mentorship
style, leadership style, is likea dialogue.
I'd love to get your opinion onthis, because we had this issue
recently in our agency.
Someone felt that they weren'tbeing heard, so they stopped
giving ideas and, like theirmanager was kind of like all the
ideas that I heard were neverreally good, so it was kind of
(15:56):
like an interesting situation.
You know, how would youapproach that, where it's like
you don't want to shut peopledown because you want to hear
them, but you also need to kindof give the feedback?
I'd love your take on thatsituation.
Katy Katz (16:06):
That's a challenging part of marketing and we
absolutely face it a lot,especially with creative
endeavors.
It's funny we were just talkingabout this today Something
about the process of creatingsomething.
You feel like you're putting alittle bit of yourself into it.
People take feedback verypersonally and it's hard not to
(16:29):
Even 20 years into it.
It still is sometimes you face.
That challenge is I have threekids, so the process of being a
parent has taught me so muchabout how to hold space for
people's emotions during afeedback loop.
(16:54):
I think that that is a big partof it, because a lot of what
we've found on our team is thatpeople get discouraged from
continuing to give their ideas.
Negative feedback has a heavierweight to it, right?
That's kind of psychologicallyknown that we weigh negative
feedback more heavily andpositive feedback it doesn't
(17:15):
carry the same magnitude.
We don't hear it as much, andso you have to sort of
counteract that it as much, andso you have to sort of
counteract that you have to givea little extra space, for
you're safe to receive thisnegative feedback.
I'm not viewing you as negative.
This is a learning experiencefor both of us and there's
(17:36):
something for both of us to gainfrom this, also looking back at
look how much you've grown fromthe last time that we've gone
through this and how that'shelped you and how your product
in the end came out so muchbetter when we did it, when we
worked on this together, andthen kind of showing also some
of your vulnerabilities.
That's been another way thatI've helped kind of ease that,
(18:01):
sharing mistakes that I've made,showing that I am also a human
and not just perfect.
It's something that isimportant with my kids too.
Like, oh, mom, you made thismistake before.
You also mess up.
Yes, actually I mess up all thetime.
I am a terrible mess sometimes.
(18:21):
You know we all are, and Ithink that easing that
sensitivity and making space forpeople's emotions in the
workplace is important.
Danny Gavin (18:31):
Yeah, and I think hopefully you agree that
reiterating some of those thingswhich you think are given, but
I guess when it's a difficultconversation, reiterating that
we're here to right it's not apersonal attack.
I'm sure that that helps.
Katy Katz (18:44):
Yes, exactly, and saying those things out loud,
naming it and making it clear,because I think also a lot of
times we make assumptions.
If we've said something once ortwice, that like, that's
understood.
But when you're in a heightenedemotional state or you are
feeling a little vulnerable,that's when you need to hear
(19:04):
that even more.
Danny Gavin (19:05):
Yeah, I love that, so important.
So let's pivot a bit.
Obviously, you had roots earlyin the toy industry, but what
attracted you this time aroundto leave the agency world and to
join the toy industry?
Katy Katz (19:19):
It was a really hard choice.
I was working for Terry Hoffmanat Marketing Refresh for many
years and again another personwho I really look up to and who
in many ways, has shaped themarketer that I am today,
particularly when it comes toviewing of branding and the
(19:39):
whole cycle of branding.
I couldn't be where I am rightnow with all of the lessons that
I learned from her, and it wasa very emotional decision to
move on.
Actually, a family member of myhusband's works with Basic Fun
and they had been looking tofill this role for quite some
time.
It's in Florida and we work inperson.
(20:03):
That's one of those In digitalspace we're used to very remote
positions.
We're a little bit spoiled,compared to other industries,
that our career path has had alot more flexibility in that way
, and so they had a hard timefilling this position.
And she reached out and shesaid you know, I know someone
who might be good for this roleand I met with the CEO and a few
(20:28):
others and it was a really goodfit and I had been curious
about moving in-house for awhile.
I've been in agencies for about15 years prior to that and it
was just the right place, righttime.
I really love toys.
I think that the ability towork on something that impacts
(20:50):
the lives of so many children issuch a powerful experience.
It's really very fulfilling,too, and exciting, so that also
was a big part of my decision.
Danny Gavin (21:01):
So this explains why.
So for those who are audio,they're not going to get this.
But for those watching video,Katie's got this amazing toys
behind her.
I'm like, hmm, you're mostprobably at home, but you've got
three kids, and how comeeverything looks so good?
But now I know why becauseyou're not the opposite.
You're not at home.
Katy Katz (21:15):
No, I came in.
Danny Gavin (21:17):
So now being in an in-house role, what are some of
the things maybe you miss fromthe agency life, and then also
what are like the advantages nowthat you have being in an
in-house agency because we havedifferent brand managers who are
each our clients, and then weare the execution.
Katy Katz (21:49):
Well, I almost said executioner.
No, we're not.
Sometimes we are.
We execute the work for thedifferent brands, and so many
ways it is very much like anagency relationship, so that
part is very similar.
What's different, though, isthat in a traditional agency
relationship you have a contractin place, you have an agreed
(22:13):
amount of work that you aregoing to do, and if it's out of
scope, it's very easy to havethose conversations with your
client, say this was the agreedscope.
Once you go in-house, that isnot in place anymore.
It's very much like do whateverit takes to get success.
It's harder to define thoseboundaries a little bit.
(22:35):
The expectations can be, Ifound, harder to define, and so
I've really, having come fromthe agency side, that's been a
really important thing for me totake into consideration for the
mental health of my team, thatI don't want to keep pushing
(22:57):
that expectation that there is.
You know, keep going untilyou're in the ground, everything
you can do is not reallyrealistic.
So trying to apply some ofthose concepts that we use in
agency space to have boundariesand apply them in-house- so you
don't want to be the executionerof your employees, which makes
(23:19):
a lot of sense.
Danny Gavin (23:20):
Yes, how many brands or toys are you working
with at any one time?
Katy Katz (23:25):
your team- we have several brands that are in
development, plus we have about20 established brands, so not
all of them require hands-onexperience marketing strategies
right now.
Some of them are a little moreimpulse buy type brands, and so
(23:45):
those we don't have to invest asmuch effort in.
And then you have others likeCare Bears Behind Me, or we
launched a new brand, littlestPet Shop this year that are very
intensive, and so that's wherewe've been looking at defining
for ourselves, defining whatthat scope looks like, and we've
been setting it based off ofthe revenue potential, which
(24:08):
kind of makes sense for a way todefine those boundaries and how
to define up our time so thatwe can be more systematic and
strategic about where we'reinvesting and have a system
around it.
Danny Gavin (24:21):
You and I I think we're about the same age we
found out about toys because wehad TV and there were
commercials on.
You know, after when we gothome there was, you know, shows
after school, saturday morning,sunday.
You know I didn't have cablegrowing up so I didn't have as
much, but you know very much intraditional and we knew all
about it from the commercialsno-transcript, put the product
(25:06):
on the shelf at Toys R Us andyou were set Like that was all
you had to do.
Katy Katz (25:11):
The job was very easy , and now it's much more
challenging.
Kids are very divided.
If they're on YouTube, they'reon a thousand different channels
and influencers for YouTube.
And even if they're on YouTube,they're on a thousand different
channels and influencers forYouTube.
And even if they have a couplethat they are sort of loyal to
and really trust, they're maybewatching little snippets of
(25:32):
information from them and thenthe next day it's gone out of
their minds.
So you really do have to havethis sort of continual presence.
And then, on top of that, thereare rules and regulations around
marketing to children, as thereshould be, because, first of
all, they don't have their owndisposable income, but also,
(25:53):
just like for the best mentalhealth of our children, we don't
want to bombard them withchoices that are not appropriate
for them to be presented with.
So we really take all of thatvery seriously in the toy
industry.
That's why there are so manyregulations, to make sure that
it is.
(26:13):
That's why you see educationalcontent.
There's a new term that isbeing thrown around in this
space, mes mesh, which is aboutmental and emotional health.
The toy industry is actuallyvery thoughtful about how we
incorporate the best earlychildhood education into our
(26:38):
content and programming, whichis a really interesting blend of
my personal interests with mymarketing experience, and that's
been very rewarding for me toget to work on.
Danny Gavin (26:51):
Yeah, because it's not just about the sales and the
bottom line, which is important, but you're actually doing it
in like a I don't use the termethical way, but I don't know,
it's just more meaningful way.
Katy Katz (27:00):
Yeah, and you kind of have to Itially, it's required,
it's expected from parents.
It is also the most effectiveway to use content marketing
with kids because they'relearning from it and growing
from it, and it's veryinteresting With Littlest Pet
Shop.
That brand came out in the 90sfrom Hasbro and kids started
(27:23):
creating stories through playingwith the pets and they would
use the pets to work throughsocial situations that were
challenging for them byanthropomorphizing the pets and
having them work through thosesocial dynamics.
Then, when YouTube came out,they started creating content
(27:45):
around the stories that theywould tell through their pets,
and what's really interesting tome as a marketer is the bond
that that created for them withthe toy that now Gen Z, who is
in their 20s, as we know, andwere collectors of Littlest Pet
(28:05):
Shop when they were kids,they're still creating YouTube
content.
They still have the samepassion and connection for the
brand and so much of that isthrough that content creation
process.
So we really take that intoconsideration, too when we're
thinking about bringing the nextgeneration into the brand.
Danny Gavin (28:25):
So how do you balance the need for creativity
in toy marketing with thedata-driven nature of e-commerce
?
Katy Katz (28:33):
Oh boy, that's one of my whole life questions.
Danny Gavin (28:36):
Is that the million dollar question?
Katy Katz (28:38):
Yes, it's like that art history degree and the
business degree.
They're both in there and youhave to balance them both.
I tend to lean more towards thedata and logic side, which is
kind of funny because I love artand creativity.
(28:59):
From a personal perspective, myroles in work have more heavily
been data-driven.
I've did a lot of SEO andpay-per-click ads and have been
more heavily on the data side.
So I think that's impacted mypersonal leaning.
But the creation process isiterative.
(29:20):
It can't be 100% data-drivenand you have to find that
balance a little bit.
But that's been helpful for mehaving that background,
especially when I'mcommunicating with the creative
part of our team, becausecreatives don't always
necessarily want to use the datafor their starting point and
(29:43):
having both experiences hasdefinitely helped me with those
conversations of how you can usedata points as a starting like,
kind of like a writing prompt,without it destroying the
creative process.
Danny Gavin (29:58):
How do you stay ahead of changing consumer
behavior, especially when youraudience is both parents and
children?
Katy Katz (30:03):
Also the million dollar question.
I think we're all working onthat right now and I kind of
jump back to that continuouslearning and also having like a
really smart team around you,because there is no one person
who's going to be able to staywith all of the trends and
changes and how rapidlyeverything is changing right now
(30:24):
, and so I'm a firm believer inhaving different point people
for different areas and thenteaching each other.
So we have a person who'sreally invested in influencer
marketing coming back to theteam and sharing what they've
learned and making sure that weall are growing with them.
(30:46):
Having a point person fore-commerce to come back to the
team.
Having that point person fordesign trends that's how we're
continuing to make sure ourwhole team is evolving and
growing and adapting together.
Danny Gavin (31:00):
Of all those different areas, do you have one
that you're more passionateabout these days, and especially
because you've done SEO and PPC?
So I know you're more of ageneralist in a way these days,
but is there something that inparticular like you know, that's
my favorite child.
Katy Katz (31:15):
I think I really love e-commerce because when I
started my career, google wasreally taking off and we were
able to start doing blogging andpull people into the website.
Josh was a huge advocate of theinbound marketing method and
(31:37):
pulling leads to your websitewith educational content so that
they were making the choice andyou weren't just like pushing
cold ads onto them.
That has really shaped how Ithink about marketing as it, you
know.
For the rest of my career, Ithink about that and apply it to
most of our strategies and Iactually still have our team
(32:00):
take the HubSpot inboundmarketing certificate the free
one that they offer when theystart just because I think
HubSpot's methods are justreally.
They've done a great jobexplaining that and showing the
value of pulling instead ofpushing.
I'm going to get back to youranswer to your question.
So I started with inboundmarketing and content creation
(32:23):
and how that pulled people intothe website and the data that
would come from that and that wecould follow them then from
lead to customer and that entirelife cycle.
Then, when e-commerce came andwe could do that on another
level, where we could run asocial media ad and then follow
them all the way to the cart andfollow up with emails and
(32:47):
convert them and upsell andcross-sell.
I really love data, so thoseopportunities of incremental
increases that you can do thatwill have a big result.
You just can't replicate thatwith brick and mortar or some of
the other areas, so that Ireally like having a clear cut
answer and be a problem that youcan solve and that the data
(33:12):
offers that.
And I think e-commerce is sucha great modality for that
because you can see every stepin the funnel.
The data tells you what'shappening and there are a lot of
easy adjustments you can makebecause everything's so visible.
Danny Gavin (33:27):
Yeah, especially when you contrast it or compare
with, like lead generation,right, for a lot of times you
know, especially in long salescycles, to see which leads
actually turn into sales.
Right, it's a lot harder andmore difficult process With
e-com.
It's a lot harder and moredifficult process With e-com.
It's a lot quicker and a lotinstantaneous and, like you said
, you can make a little changehere and that's going to make a
(33:48):
bigger change down the line.
So, going a little bit deeperinto e-com, how do you balance
your opinion on Amazon versusyour own store?
I know there's tremendousadvantages of being on Amazon,
but then there's also a push fora lot of Amazon sellers.
Let's create our own brand,create our own Shopify sites.
Let's see if we can get morebusiness there.
(34:10):
Love, from your perspective,how do you see the relationship
between those two?
Katy Katz (34:14):
They both have their advantages and I think,
depending on the size of yourbusiness and what your goals are
, there are different reasons todecide if you're doing both or
focusing on one or the other.
We don't actually have our own,like for basic fun, right now.
We don't have our own direct toconsumer e-commerce other than
(34:35):
through a platform like Amazonor Walmart or Target, and so
that brings some challenges.
In the agency world, when I hadclients who were Shopify sites
or other e-commerce sites, youdo have much more access to data
and you can see that fullfunnel that I was talking about.
You can get close with Amazonwith UTM tracking and different
(34:59):
tools, but it's not 100%.
So that brings some challenges,if you like pure data, but
there are so many benefitsbecause Amazon is Amazon.
It's where the consumers are.
Even just being the platform,you get a benefit from people
who are already shopping thereand adding things to their cart
(35:20):
and doing research.
A lot of people use Amazon as aresearch tool.
They're also even showing withTikTok shop now that consumers
trust Amazon so much that theywill.
Even if they see something onTikTok shop, if they're not
comfortable, they're goingstraight to Amazon and just
buying it on Amazon and they'veshown that direct correlation.
(35:43):
I know there are varyingopinions on Amazon as a big
behemoth and they control a lotof things, but I do love Amazon
for all of the benefits that itoffers, and their tools are
extensive.
You can really get pretty closeto what you can get from your
(36:03):
Shopify site through Amazon now,which is nice.
Danny Gavin (36:07):
So, with selling happening more on these
marketplaces, are you stillinternally?
Are you running Google ads,social media ads?
I guess what?
You would be pushing trafficdirectly to those platforms.
Katy Katz (36:18):
Yeah, it's interesting for us because we
are we're sort of like amiddleman in a way.
We sell our product to Targetor Amazon, they purchase the
inventory from us, but then it'sstill on us to market the
brands and make sure that itsells once it's from the shelf.
(36:38):
And that's something I didn'tnecessarily understand from
outside of this space, that Ithought, oh, if you got your
product in Target, you did it.
Good job me.
And that's not how it works atall, because Target really
expects you to be the owner ofyour brands and own the consumer
(37:01):
demand for the brand.
Some of the big retailers do,of course, have ways of
promoting themselves and gettingcustomers into the store and
different things like that, butyeah, it's absolutely nowadays
on the individual brand ownersto develop, grow and maintain
the health of their fan base.
Danny Gavin (37:21):
Do you deal with any of the brick and mortar type
of marketing, or is it purelydigital?
Katy Katz (37:28):
We do A little bit.
We have some in-marketstrategies, retail strategies,
but because we're global,essentially digital is the
fastest and most economical wayto market and that's how we kind
of end up making our decisions.
It's very much on how manyeyeballs can we get in for the
(37:55):
most affordable price ends upbeing the leading decision maker
, and then you want it to bequality.
So is making sure and measuring.
Is this working?
Is it converting?
Because if you're getting 10million eyeballs but then
nobody's purchasing, it's notuseful that it's so cheap.
Danny Gavin (38:14):
It's time for our lightning round.
We're going to talk aboutfavorite toys growing up.
I think let's both do it, ifthat's okay.
Katy Katz (38:20):
Yes please, I would love to hear that.
Yeah, let's both do it, ifthat's okay.
Danny Gavin (38:23):
Yes, I think it'd be cool for both of us.
I would love to hear that.
Yeah, cool.
So I think you should start forladies first, and also and um,
but yeah, what are your topthree toys that you enjoyed?
Katy Katz (38:31):
I had.
I was definitely a barbie kid.
We had my sister and I wouldhave very intricate worlds set
up for our barbies and itreached a point actually that my
sister's rules and worlds thatwere so defined and specific
that it became a problem for ourrelationship.
(38:53):
For a couple of years we had totake a pause from playing
together because we both werevery opinionated and thoughtful
in these worlds that we directedand created and that was a huge
part for sure for me ofchildhood play.
I also had a light bright and Ialways wanted to be a teacher
(39:14):
when I was a kid, so a lot of mytoys were weird for a kid.
I had a lot of workbooks andschool supplies and just books I
love to read and chalkboardsand I also would make my sister
sit and listen to my lessons, sothat might have had something
to do with art.
She had rules for the Barbiesand I had rules for mathematical
(39:39):
equations and we were like,okay, let's take a break here
and reset.
Danny Gavin (39:46):
I love that.
I know my mom.
She always tells me about howshe would do the same thing,
like sit her brother down and tomake sure that she was teaching
him like math in school.
So that's really awesome.
Katy Katz (39:58):
How about you?
What were your favorites?
Danny Gavin (40:00):
Ooh, so I loved Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
You know I had the couple thatI was able to get.
One of my really good friendshad like everything, so I was
like at her house all the timeplaying.
I remember some of the like thevans and being able to like
shoot out pizzas, so that wasalways really fun.
Katy Katz (40:16):
I remember that one my friend Ben had it and we
would play with that all thetime, with the shooting pizzas.
Danny Gavin (40:24):
I remember that one , yeah, so that was great.
You know, a little bit later onI would say middle school.
You know, maybe I'm a littlebit older, but when Power
Rangers first came out it wasstill really cool and really
loved a little bit of PowerRangers Trying to think what
else?
And Legos, you know I meanthat's like a timeless, timeless
toy.
But uh, you know, we reallyloved our Legos and the cool
part about it now is, you know,so obviously for my own children
(40:47):
we've bought Legos but then,like every once in a while they
get to go to my parents, sotheir grandparents and get to
play with the Legos that we had.
You know, I tell them storiesabout what we did.
Katy Katz (40:58):
So it's cool.
That is.
One of the coolest things isthe connection that toys make
intergenerationally like thatand the stories that you can
tell.
My mom kept a few favoriteBarbies, favorite Beanie Babies,
favorite things like that, andgives them to my kids when we go
visit.
That's really fun.
I loved Teenage Mutant NinjaTurtles too when I was a kid,
(41:18):
though I remember when I was akid we would go for walks.
I was a kid, though.
I remember when I was a kid wewould go for walks.
Every time we would pass asewer we would yell down hello,
teenage mutant Ninja Turtles.
Did you try and find them too?
Danny Gavin (41:31):
All the time and I remember so I'm Orthodox Jewish.
So on Saturday mornings, whenwe'd walk to synagogue, part of
us keeping ourselves busy wasgoing from sewer hole to sewer
hole and, like you know, yeah,it was a huge, huge.
That's so funny because that'sexactly what we did.
Katy Katz (41:50):
Yes, I just was thinking about that recently, of
how that was.
Every time it was so excitingto see a sewer, because maybe
the Ninja Turtles were in there,you don't know.
Like maybe that was the onewhere they were.
Danny Gavin (42:05):
Yeah, wow, that elicits some good memories.
Thank you, katie.
Katy Katz (42:10):
Yeah, that's one of the cool things about toys.
Danny Gavin (42:13):
We don't think about it.
But, like I said, I've got toysall around me and I've got
little figurines and it's funnyhow, you know, not everyone's
like that, but a lot of usgrowing up, we don't lose our
toys, we still love them.
So, katie, where can listenerslearn more about you and your
business?
Katy Katz (42:27):
For me.
I am on LinkedIn.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn.
I love meeting others in themarketing space and, like I said
, I have so many important partsof my growth have come from the
relationships that I've madeand I really value that
connections and I think LinkedInis a great platform to do that,
and so definitely reach out tofind me there.
(42:50):
And then, as far as basic fun,we have a website that lists all
of our different brands andtoys that we market, and so do
check it out.
We are on all of the socialsand we do lots of fun things,
and we would love to hear aboutyour favorite toys as well.
Danny Gavin (43:08):
And I'm going to put I'm going to add one to the
list, but you can still goonline and search for Katie Katz
for her old presentations.
A lot of her old decks are upand they're still really, really
good.
Katie was more of a brunetteback in those days.
Katy Katz (43:21):
Katie was more of a brunette back in those days, but
still a different person, butthat content is all still really
, really good.
Danny Gavin (43:27):
And please, god, katie, you'll get back on the
stage.
I know it's not a number onepriority, but I'm sure we're all
waiting for a comeback one ofthese days.
Katy Katz (43:34):
I'm slowly kind of tiptoeing towards that, I think
now I had two kids within twoyears, so my daughters were born
.
They are now five and four, sothey were born very close
together.
And then the global pandemichappened and so those things
(43:54):
kind of put a pause, I think, onmy outreach.
And then moving to Florida andworking in-house, so definitely
all of it kind of was theperfect catalyst to need to take
a little step back.
But I have been missing it.
I miss the community, I missthe growth that I get from
(44:19):
working with other thoughtleaders and experts in the
connections, and so I've startedreaching out a little bit more
to the South Florida InteractiveMarketing Association and
making some of those connections.
Lisa Beyer also, interestingly,was one of the people early in
my career who I met.
Her at ZenithCon in Minnesota,which I don't think that Marty
(44:44):
runs anymore, but it was a smallMinnesota conference and I met
Lisa there and she was veryinstrumental to my speaking
career.
She does a lot of work withPubCon and then she has her own
podcast.
She's another person who I'vecontinued to find myself bumping
into, and now she's right downthe street again.
(45:05):
I've actually never lived inthe same state as her, so that's
really cool.
I met with her recently andhave started sort of slowly
stepping back into the community.
Danny Gavin (45:15):
I think there's definitely room for a woman
marketing e-com, ninja, and Ithink that that place is ripe
for you.
Well, katie, thank you so muchfor being a guest on the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
This really has been enjoyable,and thank you, listeners, for
tuning into the DigitalMarketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Katy Katz (45:32):
Thanks for having me.
Danny Gavin (45:33):
Thank you for listening to the Digital
Marketing Mentor podcast.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
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