December 18, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode, Sophie Fell, Head of Paid Media at Liberty Marketing Group, shares her journey in digital marketing after motherhood, discussing her transition from managing Facebook posts for a startup to overseeing multi-million-dollar ad campaigns. She emphasizes the value of mentorship, data-driven decision-making, and the challenges faced with top-of-funnel PPC strategies. She highlights the advantages for beginners of being a “t-shaped marketer,” advocating for a blend of broad knowledge of all platforms with deeper specializations. The episode also explores the impact of AI on digital marketing and the evolving role of paid media professionals.
Episode Highlights:
- Sophie built a successful career in PPC and paid media without a formal university degree. She started by managing Facebook posts for a startup and developed her skills through hands-on experience, emphasizing that practical knowledge often outweighs formal education in the marketing industry.
- Sophie views mentorship as a collaborative relationship built on trust and mutual respect. She credits her mentor, Kevin Ashley, for shaping her career and now mentors others within and outside of her agency, focusing on helping mentees define and achieve their goals.
- Sophie and Danny share in the belief in the advantages of being a “t-shaped marketer,” possessing a broad understanding across all platforms while having deeper expertise in one or two specific areas as they begin to align with career aspirations.
- Sophie highlights the critical role of data analysis and optimization in PPC, especially for beginners in the industry. While learning platform UIs is straightforward, understanding metrics, making data-driven decisions, and translating those insights into actions are what set top professionals apart.
- Many brands fail with top-of-funnel Google Ads campaigns because they focus on the wrong metrics, like direct conversions. Sophie advocates for redefining KPIs to measure engagement and awareness, which can better justify top-of-funnel strategies.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Gavin (00:05):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, Danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Hello everyone, I'm Danny Gavin, founder of Optage, Marketing
(00:27):
Professor and the host of theDigital Marketing Mentor.
Today we have a very specialguest, Sophie Fell, who's
director of paid media for TwoTrees PPC.
Two Trees PPC is aCalifornia-based online
advertising agency specializingin increasing profit and revenue
through expertly crafted PPCstreaming TV ads and paid social
campaigns.
Sophie brings nearly a decadeof experience in PPC streaming
TV ads and paid social campaigns.
(00:48):
Sophie brings nearly a decadeof experience in PPC and social
media ads, having managedimpressive budgets exceeding
$200 million.
Her expertise spans variousbusinesses, from small solo
ventures to internationallyrenowned brands like LinkedIn,
Juicy Couture, Fila and NationalTrust.
In addition to being a veryhands-on director of paid media,
Sophie has authored two booksand dozens of blogs on the
subject.
She's also recently spoken atBrighton SEO and today we're
(01:10):
going to talk about mentorshipand about the world of PPC.
How are you?
Sophie Fell (01:14):
I'm good.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Danny Gavin (01:17):
Me too, and it was a happen chance to meet you on
LinkedIn and I'm so glad that wewere able to do that.
I bought your book and I'm like, okay, now I need to have
Sophie on the.
You bought the book, I did.
Sophie Fell (01:28):
Oh, I love that, thank you.
Danny Gavin (01:30):
Yeah, and I was like we had to have Sophie on
the pod, so we're so glad you'rehere.
Sophie Fell (01:33):
Oh, thank you so much.
I can't believe you bought thebook.
Yeah, of course.
Danny Gavin (01:44):
It's difficult.
So typically we start off theconversation like where you went
to school, what you studied.
But I know, sophie, you didn'tget a degree.
Let's talk about that.
Why didn't you go to university?
And then, obviously, let's talkabout so how did you get into
marketing?
Sophie Fell (02:00):
I have a bit of a funny story about why I didn't
go to uni.
So I always planned to since Iwas like seven years old.
That was a part of my path andI actually fell pregnant.
So I have an 11 year old now.
This is so long ago.
So I got pregnant instead ofgoing to university.
That's always what I say.
That was my path, and then itmeant that I then kind of used
(02:22):
that time to get into marketing.
You know, after maternity leaveI started a sales job and then
basically I started working at astartup company and they said
hey, you're the youngest personhere, you can work Facebook
right.
And I was like sure, I can workFacebook.
And that was it.
That was the, that was themoment.
(02:42):
So now it's been, like you said, nearly a decade in marketing.
And yeah, all started off withjust doing some Facebook posts
nearly 10 years ago now.
Danny Gavin (02:52):
Wow.
And that's so inspiring becauseI run a digital fundamentals
course and we have a specialcohort just for women and like
you are like the poster child,where, like you have a kid, you
may not know everything, butlike you're willing to like say,
hey, I'm gonna jump in and doit, and both those things you
know were sort of like therocket pad or the launch pad to
get where you're at today.
(03:13):
So I love that.
That's like I could have paidyou to say that, but I didn't,
you just said it, which is socool yeah, it's funny.
Sophie Fell (03:20):
Um, I actually get asked a lot like, oh, what you
know, what's your degree or whatdid you go to college or uni
for?
But yeah, didn't do it, butjust put in the time in
marketing instead.
So, and it worked out for mepersonally, it worked out, so
it's great.
Danny Gavin (03:35):
So I know you did a digital marketing strategy
certification course at auniversity.
Love to get your experience orperspective on kind of
formalized marketing educationversus you know YouTube and just
doing it.
Sophie Fell (03:46):
I will say, with every super formalized one I've
done, I have always found itvery broad, which is great, and
I think that's what it's forright, not kind of necessarily
the deep dive or the day-to-dayhow-to, but more the theory.
So I think it's good to have Idon't think it's the be-all and
end all.
Honestly, I think having thatfoundation knowledge again
(04:07):
always super helpful, thosefundamentals and the theory
behind it.
I think that makes you betterat the day-to-day.
But in terms of kind of youknow whether it's going into the
platforms or adding a negativekeyword or you know bidding
strategies and things like that,user-created ones, like things
on Udemy and YouTube, thosetutorials, things like that are
(04:31):
normally your best bet.
So I would say fundamentals andthat structure training
definitely important.
But in terms of the day-to-day,I personally find YouTube and
Reddit a bit more helpful.
Danny Gavin (04:38):
And following people like you.
Sophie Fell (04:41):
Well, I was going to say but I'm reading my book.
Well, you know, I was going tosay but I'm reading my book.
Danny Gavin (04:45):
When you look back at like that initial job where
you were working Facebook, anylike specific early events that
happened, that you maybe pavedyour path to actually go in this
full time and, you know, createa career out of it.
Sophie Fell (04:59):
Do you know what?
Very early on, I fell in lovewith the analytics side of it.
I think it's one thing craftinggreat posts and all that kind
of thing, but we actuallymanaged to grow the following
from, I think it was 6,000 to50,000 in about four or five
months.
That was my first bigachievement.
I, you know, exceeded what wethought you know we'd ever
achieve.
It was just a very smallstartup with a few of us in a
(05:20):
barn in the middle of nowhere,so that was really great and
that for me, and seeing theanalytics and those audience
insights, those were the thingsthat really clicked.
And then, like I said, that wasit from there.
That was, you know, doing someposts on Facebook, and then that
was it.
Just absolutely fell in lovewith digital marketing.
Danny Gavin (05:38):
So, sophie, how would you define a mentor?
Sophie Fell (05:40):
Sometimes, when we talk about mentoring in general,
we tend to think of it as thisperson that's up here kind of
talking down to you, you know,and that support.
But I think a two-waycollaboration is always really
helpful.
So I think someone that canempathize with you maybe they
have been where you are before,or maybe it's even a peer, I
think, somewhere where there'sthat trust and confidence and
(06:04):
mutual respect I think are thereally key things to making
mentoring work.
So I think it's you know, amentor can be anyone, right, it
can be your family, it can beyour friends.
So I don't think it necessarilyhas to be that structured,
Someone that's you know, yearsahead of you in their career.
I think sometimes a mentor canbe again, a trusted friend, a
(06:27):
trusted sounding board for sure.
Danny Gavin (06:29):
So let's talk about some of your most influential
mentors.
So you've mentioned in the pastKevin Ashley, who I believe was
one of your first bosses.
Let's talk about him.
Sophie Fell (06:42):
He was.
Oh, kevin, I love him.
I did this role where I wasdoing Facebook ads, moved into
kind of Google ads, googleanalytics, digital marketing in
general.
That was my first role.
I made it to marketing managerand then I left and went in
house as a marketing manager.
That was an extraordinary leap,like, looking back at it now,
I'm like I don't know how I gotthat job, I don't know how I got
away with it.
And Kevin was my boss there.
He was the COO.
(07:02):
Sometimes you just meet someoneand you click right.
I mean there's like a 40-yearage gap between us, maybe 30.
Oh, kevin, if you're watchingthis, maybe it's 30 years.
I'm so sorry, but we justclicked and he was someone that
I could be very honest withabout what I was struggling with
(07:22):
, both in my work and, you know,even outside of work.
I think he was someone we hadshared goals across our
department.
So we kind of naturallycollaborated on those things and
he was someone that you couldhave a very, again, open and
honest discussion with.
And I think that was when Ifirst learned and I was 22, 23,
that was when I first learnedyou can have a boss that, like,
(07:44):
does respect you.
It doesn't have to be, thisagain hierarchical I'm not sure
how you say that word now.
There doesn't have to be ahierarchy between the two of you
.
You can have again that mutualrespect, that balance, and
figure out the pros and cons ofeach of you and how you work
together really well.
So I think having that sort ofrelationship really changed a
(08:08):
lot of things for me.
Actually, again my expectationsof a mentor, a boss you know he
set the standard very high and,yeah, someone that you can
truly collaborate with and yeah,he's someone.
So that was seven years ago nowthat I had that job and we
still speak all the time, anykind of issues I have or any,
you know, just chatting aboutlife, and we still catch up
(08:30):
about life and work.
So, yeah, he was my bigtransformation in a lot of ways.
Danny Gavin (08:36):
Meeting Kevin, yeah , so tell me about that
discussion.
You know, one day you walk intohis office and say, hey, I want
to become a freelancer.
How did that conversation go?
Sophie Fell (08:44):
So he knew that I was already kind of freelancing
on the side.
He was aware again, he was veryaware of what was going on in
my life.
So it wasn't I don't think hewas shocked.
I think he was disappointedthat I was leaving but also was
like saw another opportunity.
You know it was like, okay,this chapter's closing, but what
else can we do?
So I actually continued workingwith him on a freelance basis
(09:07):
for a little while afterwardsand he was like my first client.
We worked together for another,maybe another year, another 18
months after that, and then onceevery few months I'd go in and
like give him a hand with hisbrand and stuff as well.
He took it pretty well and hewas a former freelancer too.
So he gave me ideas on dayrates and how I could put myself
(09:28):
out there and that as well, andgave me referrals and things
like that too.
So although the initialconversation I was dreading
again, it worked out well in theend so turning the tables who
do you mentor in your currentposition?
So I have Samuel, who is ourmedia buyer, so he's who I
mentor day to day.
Every day he gets to put upwith me.
(09:48):
And then I have two othermentees who I volunteer mentor
outside of work Hannah and Meg.
They're both young women inmarketing and I absolutely love
speaking to them.
It's the highlight of my day.
So three mentees right now.
Danny Gavin (10:03):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Some people don't even have one, so that's great.
Sophie Fell (10:06):
I'm hoarding them all, yeah, basically.
Danny Gavin (10:09):
So what are your keys to mentoring success?
And maybe it might be differentbetween Samuel and the ladies,
but what would you say are yourkeys to being a good mentor and
mentoring them?
Sophie Fell (10:19):
For me, I always try and start with their goals.
Normally, when someone'sseeking out mentorship,
particularly someone that youdon't work with, there's
something right, there'ssomething they're not ready for,
or they are ready for but it'snot happening, or there's just
always one or two things thatthey want to kind of work
through.
So I think for me, it'sidentifying why do you think you
(10:43):
need help you know what is that, that missing link for you and
then kind of plotting out theirgoals and their path, where they
would like to be, what this newthing is that they want to do
maybe they're not quite readyyet and then identifying the
steps to get there.
So I think for me, that what isyour goal, what are you trying
to achieve, is the main thing,and it's how I normally get to
(11:05):
the root cause of whatever it isthat's going on.
I try my best to again fosterthat collaborative, mutual
relationship too.
So I will be very honest too.
I will say you know, I messedthis up, or this happened, or
this is what's going on for metoo, because, again, I think
it's really important thatyou're on the same level.
(11:28):
You know you're not.
I don't want to be put on apedestal, right.
I would like us to have againthose transparent, honest, open
conversations.
So I think those are the twomain things that's, identifying
their goals and what they'retrying to achieve, but also
creating, you know, a friendshipultimately, so they feel that
they can be honest.
Danny Gavin (11:49):
So let's talk about your book a little bit.
What sparked your interest inwriting a book about PPC?
Sophie Fell (11:53):
It literally came about because I'd written so
many blogs at this point that Iwas like I could turn this into
a book.
And that is how it all began.
So it was literally.
I had a massive Google Drivefolder full of everything I'd
spoken about about Google Adsfor the last however many years
maybe four or five yearsconsistently writing about this
(12:13):
and I thought I think I can turnthis into a book.
So that was honestly it.
Looking at a folder in myGoogle Drive, I'm saying I think
I already have the content forthis.
Let's shape it, let's mold it,let's update it, let's see if we
can create a book.
Danny Gavin (12:27):
Love it.
So, even though this is not apodcast about content marketing,
but it just shows you that ifyou've got content, you
repurpose it, and this is aperfect example.
Sophie Fell (12:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Danny Gavin (12:38):
So, for those who haven't read it yet, what are
some of the key takeaways, orwhat they can see if they read?
Sophie Fell (12:42):
It's kind of for a relatively broad audience, so
people that are new to PPC,maybe experts in digital
marketing, but want to take abit of a deeper dive into what's
possible and what you can do.
There are a lot of smallbusiness owners that have bought
it and read it, which is great,really nice to hear their
feedback too.
You know someone that wears allthe hats in their organization
(13:03):
to Google ads in particular soaccessible that it feels easy to
do, but there are so many tips,tricks you know best practices,
worst practices, even if youneed to follow to make it work.
So I think that's the overallaim is to kind of hand the power
back to whoever this person iswho's reading the book, to
(13:24):
really have confidence in whatthey're creating and also be
able to manage and optimizeeffectively too.
So those are the main takeawaysis just really how to manage
your account in the bestpossible way and how to create
ideally the best performingcampaigns for you and your brand
.
Danny Gavin (13:41):
That's awesome.
You kind of sparked an idea ora thought.
You know when you speak to aclient and they're not sure what
they want to do and like oh, wethink PPC is good for you.
Like, ah, I tried it already.
It didn't work.
Sophie Fell (13:52):
Yes yeah, I still have that conversation so often.
In fact, our biggest case studythat we just had was because I
begged a CMO to let me do GoogleAds for them.
We were already doing theirmeta ads and things on TikTok
and LinkedIn and they were likeno, we've run Google Search for
years, it just doesn't work forus, like we know it doesn't work
(14:14):
for us, and we generatedmillions for them from Google
Search.
Danny Gavin (14:20):
It worked it worked .
Sophie Fell (14:21):
But that's the thing I think.
Even today, in 2024, 2025,people have so many
misconceptions.
They still don't trust GoogleSearch, and it's the job of
people like me to convince them,show them that it works.
Danny Gavin (14:34):
Moving into building a career in PPC what
skills are most important todevelop for Moving into building
a career in PPC?
What skills are most importantto develop for someone starting
a career or without PPCexperience?
Sophie Fell (14:42):
I mean it's one thing to be able to manage the
UI and physically createcampaigns and things like that
that's one thing, right.
But I do think the analysisside and the number side of it
is so important and I think itgets overlooked so much.
Right, like data-drivendecision-making shouldn't be a
buzzword, right, we shouldalways be making decisions based
(15:04):
on data, and that optimizationpiece gets overlooked so often.
And natural love for the dataand seeing nice green graphs
everywhere, that helps for sure.
Realistically, anyone can learnthe UI.
I mean, how many uis have youexperienced?
What's 10 years, 20 years?
You know a lot.
We're learning all the time,right, how to navigate.
(15:26):
So I think that side of thingsand the campaign creation google
have got that down right.
That's, that's easy.
But I think, yeah, the dataanalysis bit bit is such a huge
part of making campaignssuccessful, both in the short
term and the long term, thatthat bit's a really critical
piece that I think reallyseparates kind of beginners from
(15:46):
people that are really takingit seriously.
Danny Gavin (15:49):
In your experience.
Do you feel like that'ssomething you can learn or do
you kind of have to have anatural knack for it?
Because it is?
You know, it's kind of hardalways to put out a rule book, a
guidebook hey, in order tooptimize, you have to do this or
this right.
It's difficult becausesometimes you kind of have to
look at it and you know with theexperience it tells you right
what needs to be done.
What's your thought on that?
Sophie Fell (16:10):
I think it's a learned skill that you can have
with time.
It just comes with time andexperience, right?
Like maybe you or I can look atan account and look at one
metric and go, cool, I knowwhat's happened.
Like I know what's going on, Ican understand this.
There are so many metrics toconsider and then you also have
to have your own personal memorybank of this metric's important
(16:31):
on this account and thismetric's important on this
account and you know.
So I do think it can be learned.
I think the most crucial thingis experience and experiencing
the impact that your changeshave on the metrics and having
to explain how the changesyou've made impact those metrics
too.
I think that experience really,really takes you far.
Danny Gavin (16:52):
A previous guest, corey Henke, recently posted and
I know he speaks about this ingeneral, but about how important
it is for a media buyer to knowmultiple platforms and to
understand the whole funnel.
On the other hand, we knowthere's people out there who are
like specialists when it comesto Google Ads and know exactly
and they don't talk aboutanything else how important is
(17:13):
gaining experience acrossdifferent media platforms
advertising platforms likeGoogle, microsoft, meta, tiktok
how important is that?
Sophie Fell (17:20):
I'm going to go with the typical answer of it
depends.
Danny Gavin (17:23):
It's okay.
Because it really does I thinkthat's important because it
means that both are true, buttell us why.
Sophie Fell (17:29):
Yeah, absolutely, it depends, right?
I mean, if you're like aT-shaped marketer, you don't
need to know absolutelyeverything, right?
You need to know, know how itall works, what kind of
audiences are available andthings like that.
But you're also concentratingon, you know, seo, websites,
brand, all these other thingsover here, pr.
So I think both are right.
Again, it depends what you wantto do.
If you want to become so, forexample, so I'm the director of
(17:51):
paid media, so I need to knowwhat all these, what all of them
do, right.
But if I was director of ppc, Iwould just need to know google
and microsoft, what all of themdo, right.
But if I was director of PPC, Iwould just need to know Google
and Microsoft and maybe Yahooand Naver and all those, all
those ones too.
So it really does depend what,what you want to do and where
you kind of see your, yourfuture career.
I would say don't you know, youdon't have to become a
(18:12):
specialist yet you know,becoming a T-shaped marketer is
brilliant.
You can do all the things youknow.
Yeah, it really depends on yourambitions and goals and also
what your clients or you know,if you're at an agency or the
brand you work for, what theywant, too right.
(18:32):
If they only want you to doLinkedIn ads and that's the only
thing that ever worked for them, then there's no point you
knowing the ins and outs ofGoogle if you're not going to
use it, you know so yeah, itreally just does depend on where
you are in your career, whereyou want to be in the future and
, I guess, again, therequirements of the businesses
you're working for.
Danny Gavin (18:48):
So you mentioned T-shaped marketer.
That's a phrase that I useoften.
Sophie Fell (18:55):
And I realize I don't know what it is.
Danny Gavin (18:57):
But the reason why it's called a T-shaped marketer
is because a lot of marketers atthe top of the T right.
They have an understanding, agood understanding, of every
part of marketing, whether it'sSEO, like you said, brand PR.
But most people find a love inone or two areas and in there
that's where they go deepno-transcript.
(19:42):
Thanks, sophie.
So how do you handle thepressure of managing large PPC
budgets and what advice wouldyou give to someone new to
managing significant spend?
And before I let you answerthat, it's kind of interesting
for people who don't know.
But it's kind of like, in orderto manage a large budget, you
kind of like someone's going tosay have you managed one before?
So, it's kind of like how doyou get that first one?
(20:02):
And it seems overwhelming.
I'd love to talk about that.
Sophie Fell (20:04):
So I always give everyone I've worked with the
same advice.
When they're leaping from maybeyou know, 5,000 a month or
1,000 a month, even to 100,000 amonth, or 20,000 a month,
whatever to $100,000 a month or$20,000 a month, whatever that
leap looks like, thefundamentals are still the same
and I kind of tell them toignore the budget.
Right, because I think it's soeasy to get sucked into the
(20:26):
budget and budget-relatedmetrics and you can really focus
on that.
But the core fundamentals arestill the same.
Right, you still want a goodCTR, you still want a good
conversion rate.
So that's always the adviceI've given over the years.
It feels overwhelming, but thefundamental concepts are the
same.
You should manage it in thesame way.
(20:47):
If anything, managing lowerbudgets is harder.
It's much harder, much morework, much more optimization
needed than with large budgets.
So I would try to.
Yeah, I mean my advice is justignore the budgets where
possible and try and stick tothose fundamentals that you know
so well.
Danny Gavin (21:06):
And what about convincing someone that, like I
know PPC and the fact that I'mgoing to manage maybe a budget
that's five, you know, six timesmore than I'm used to?
How do they sell themselves onthat?
Sophie Fell (21:17):
Again, I think we're talking about this more in
paid media and PPC at themoment, which I think is a
really good thing, and I thinkif you can make an account work
with a minuscule budget, that isso much more impressive than
have been given a million a yearand figuring that out, and I
think people in the communityand the wider community are
(21:40):
starting to realize that a bitmore too.
It's easy if you've gotconversion tracking set up and
you've got hundreds of thousandsof dollars every month.
That's, you know.
It's easy, not simple.
You're not, you know,guaranteed to get results, but
that's easy to do because Googledoes the hard work for you.
If you are managingconsistently small budgets and
(22:00):
you have those case studieswhere you've generated ROAS,
you've generated a return, Ithink that can go a really long
way in convincing or reassuringsomeone that you know what
you're doing, because you haveto have that attention to detail
and you have to be so much moreon the ball with those small
budgets.
So, yeah, if anything, I thinkit takes more skill to manage
(22:22):
lower budgets, for sure.
Danny Gavin (22:24):
So moving up funnel a bit, why do many brands fail
with their top of funnel paidsearch campaigns and what is the
common misconception aboutthese campaigns?
Sophie Fell (22:33):
I have been harping on about this a lot in 2024.
So I'm excited to have theopportunity to talk about it
again.
I think one of the main thingswe've seen again over the last
five to 10 years is that becausewe've always been so fixated
and we've always used last clickattribution, top of funnel and
middle of funnel campaignsalways look like they don't work
(22:55):
right.
They will always appear to notwork and you know a lot of
brands haven't got kind ofcross-channel measurement right
yet and I think you know youcould have a massive TV campaign
running and then your bottom offunnel Google ads are going to
look great.
But any time in my experiencethat I've tried doing this too,
(23:17):
it has been so hard to justifythe ROI and the return on
creating top and middle funnelads.
So I think that we think itdoesn't work and that's why we
shy away from it so much at themoment.
And I think where we get itwrong is that we still focus on
those lower funnel actions, isthat we still focus on those
(23:38):
lower funnel actions.
So we try and use top of funneland middle of funnel search to
drive conversions and then veryquickly it doesn't work right.
We see that it doesn't work.
That misconception and thatconcentrating on the wrong
metric and not concentrating on,you know, viewability and
engagement metrics has reallymade us suffer, whereas we never
have a problem with this onlike Meta or any other platform,
(24:00):
right, if we create a brandawareness campaign, we are
looking at awareness metrics andon Google Ads and PPC, we don't
seem to do that, we don't seemto carry that across.
So that I would say is thebiggest misconception, that
Google Ads doesn't work for topof funnel and middle funnel.
And I think by redefining whatmetrics we and KPIs we want for
(24:22):
success, I think we can veryquickly show that you can drive
those objectives through GoogleAds for sure.
Danny Gavin (24:29):
And this might be getting into the weeds a bit,
but in the end of the day, iflet's say you have three
campaigns top, middle, bottomand top and middle, from a
conversion perspective, aren'tdoing great right, but let's say
all the other metrics arereally good engagement, and
we're optimizing on what'sactually driving people to the
site and things like that, we'regetting conversions in the
bottom.
Do we say that top and middleare just a cost to doing
business?
(24:49):
Or, technically, do we have tolook at the whole account and
say we need to have positive ROIoverall?
Or if not, then we got aproblem.
So how do you kind of look atthat?
Sophie Fell (25:00):
The way I try to look at it, wherever this data
is available, whether that'sthrough you know campaign
manager or you know whatever itis I think trying to demonstrate
the impact of the top of funneland middle funnel campaigns on
the lower funnel campaigns isthe biggest thing to do, right?
So if we can successfully showthe data and say, look, we got
(25:20):
two clicks or we got two viewson this and then this assisted
this conversion all the way downhere, I think we can kind of
mash together a bit of an ROIfor talk of funnel and mid
funnel.
And I think ultimately I mean,when I've been in agencies and
agencies now that's whatbusinesses are looking for,
right.
So I think there is some workwe can do in terms of the full
(25:45):
funnel attribution and what theattribution model looks like.
When we can do that, we seem tobe able to show that top of
funnel and mid funnel campaignsare actually very successful at
driving those objectives.
Danny Gavin (25:57):
Yeah, that's great, thank you.
So what would you say are someof the red flags when managing
Google ad accounts?
Sophie Fell (26:02):
We'll start with the main one, which is and this
is always the first place I lookis the click-through rate.
That's always the first place Icheck.
So on again in 2024,.
The latest data was kind ofsaying on Google in particular,
we're looking at four to 6%.
It used to be 3%.
It's increasing over time withPerformance, max and everything
(26:24):
else that's coming in andthere's all sorts of going on.
So I normally start therebecause I think that's such an
indicative metric of so manythings.
If the click-through rate'sgood, then I can start looking
in other places.
If the click-through rate's bad, that's normally the root of
the problem, right?
So we're looking at how closelythemed the keywords, the ad
(26:46):
copy, the landing pages are, howgreat the landing page
experience is, all those sortsof things, and I think that
metric is so crucial to successon Google Ads.
I think a low click throughrate is, yeah, always the first
place I look if I'm auditing anaccount.
So definitely the first redflag.
The second red flag would be Ialways check campaign settings
(27:09):
next, because the amount oftimes I have seen the default
settings apply to location andlanguage and thousands of or if
not hundreds of thousands ofdollars wasted by targeting all
languages when your ad copy isin English, or targeting
absolutely everyone in an areaor people interested in an area
(27:29):
that maybe don't live there.
So those are the second redflags, those default campaign
settings and the ones that don'tauto-optimize and show your
best performing ads more oftenas well.
Those three things are so easyto fix as well.
So big red flags if those arewrong, but luckily very easy
fixes and you will see theanalytics change overnight once
(27:54):
those changes are made.
I think the third one comes downto conversion tracking.
Honestly, obviously, if youdon't have any conversion
tracking, that's a red flag, butwe'll move past that.
But I think the best practicesfor conversion tracking have
evolved so much in the lastagain two, three, five years
(28:15):
that what was great in a setup afew years ago now no longer
works right or isn't the bestbest practices anymore.
So when I'm looking atconversion tracking, I want to
see regular conversions comingthrough, of course, and it's all
working perfectly, but I wantto see those primary conversions
set and I want to see somesecondary conversion sets.
Those are kind of the mainthings I'm really looking for.
(28:37):
So I'm expecting to seemultiple conversion types,
ideally some conversion values,if we have them, but then those
primary and secondary ones andthose set at the campaign level
too.
So those would be my threebiggest red flags for Google Ads
account.
Danny Gavin (28:52):
How do you feel about having multiple primary
conversions?
Sophie Fell (28:55):
I think it's okay to have multiple primary
conversions.
I'm okay with that.
I don't hate that.
I don't hate that.
It's just that if you knowyou've got like YouTube
subscriptions as your primaryconversion and you're also
trying to generate leads, youknow you may come into some
issues there, but multipleprimary conversions is fine by
me.
Danny Gavin (29:12):
Yeah, or page views right.
That's not really a greatprimary conversion.
Sophie Fell (29:17):
Yeah, not that either no.
Danny Gavin (29:20):
Any opinion on going straight away to automated
bidding or starting off withmanual?
Where do you stand on thematter right now?
Sophie Fell (29:27):
Oh God, this is controversial.
Danny Gavin (29:29):
I know.
Sophie Fell (29:29):
You're going to get me in trouble on the internet.
So for me, I will always startwith maximized clicks before
going to fully automated likeconversion or conversion value
tracking.
I think it's out of habit,honestly, and it's something
that's always worked for me.
That is where I tend to go.
I am not a fan of manual CPCbidding or manual CPC caps.
(29:53):
I don't think personally.
In my experience, I don't thinkyou need them anymore.
With how far smart bidding andthe algorithms have come along
in the last few years, inparticular, I don't think you
need them unless there's alegitimate reason.
So for me, I'm all aboard withautomated bidding for sure.
Danny Gavin (30:13):
I think that's a very healthy middle ground.
Not manual CPC, not auto, butmax clicks.
I like that.
I think that's safe.
Sophie Fell (30:22):
It's safe.
Again, it's worked for me.
I know you know other peoplewill go one way or the other,
but that's yeah.
I'm a little bit on the fencewith this one.
Danny Gavin (30:31):
Love it With AI coming down the line and AI
overviews any fear that theindustry that we're in right now
, like it's not going to be herein a couple of years.
Sophie Fell (30:41):
It's tricky.
I think it will be here.
I think I just think ourday-to-day jobs are going to
look a little bit different andI think that as marketers, as
people in paid media, as peoplein PPC, I think we just need to
really start focusing on thedata.
I can see our roles evolvingfrom that, like you know, manual
input piece to almost againlike that black box, like how
(31:04):
Performance Max kind of startedoff a couple of years ago, a few
years ago now.
So you know, the manual inputsare limited.
I think.
I do think we'll see PPC andSEO start to align a lot more.
I can imagine ad content comingjust from the website from now
on, you know, from now on in thefuture.
(31:25):
So I hope to see PPC and SEOteams work much more closely
together on that in the future.
Danny Gavin (31:31):
I love that.
I haven't thought about that,but I'm just going to.
I'm going to expound on itbecause I'm actually excited
about that.
So what we're saying is thatwhere ads are going to come from
are from the content on thesite itself.
So having good content on thewebsite is not just about
showing up in organic Google,but it's also feeding the paid
side as well.
(31:52):
I love that.
I haven't thought about that,so thank you for giving me that
idea.
Sophie Fell (31:57):
That's just yeah.
Danny Gavin (31:58):
I like it.
Sophie Fell (31:59):
That's what I'm thinking.
That's what I'm thinking.
It's what I'm thinking BecauseI can imagine, you know, again,
like completely original ads forabsolutely everyone, right,
Hyper personalized, but againwith your website content being
the basis of all of that.
I don't know if that's going tohappen, but that's what I'd
like to see at some point.
And yeah, and I think I dothink again, it's going to be
(32:20):
more about steering the dataright Inputting the right data,
getting the right first partydata, third party data, you know
, whatever, whatever it is, weneed to really steer those
results.
So I think our jobs as we knowit today will change.
I'm hoping they won't beobsolete in the next decade.
Maybe in 2030 years, maybe theywill be.
I think there'll always besomething, but yeah, I can see
that kind of evolution comingfor sure.
Danny Gavin (32:43):
All right, it's time for our lightning round.
I believe you're a little bitof a traveler.
Would love to know what are thetop three places that you
visited.
Sophie Fell (32:50):
So my favorite place has been Barbali.
I just loved it.
I went there for a yoga retreat.
It's very, very hippie of umquite a few years ago, but I I
went for three days, I traveledall the way for three days and I
would.
I've just always wanted to goback.
So I think that was my numberone.
Hong Kong was probably mysecond um, just being in a a
completely different environment.
(33:12):
I just absolutely loved it.
I just loved the, the culture,the environment, um, I spent
about a week there and againwould love to go back.
And my third one.
So I'm obviously British.
So anywhere in Europe, I'malways, you know, generally
quite happy Anywhere warm inEurope.
So you know, spain, portugal,places like that I'm pretty, I
(33:34):
feel pretty at home there.
So those would be my top three.
Danny Gavin (33:37):
And related to travel.
What actually brought you toCalifornia?
Sophie Fell (33:40):
So okay, so this is really awkward.
So I'm not actually inCalifornia, so the company is
but I'm in the UK.
Danny Gavin (33:48):
Okay, I was wondering, like, what's someone
from the UK doing in California?
Sophie Fell (33:52):
I know so, my boss is from the UK and lives in
California, so I'm not.
I'm in the UK, but I just workremotely with them.
Danny Gavin (34:02):
So I love it no no, no, that makes a lot of sense.
No, I'm very pro remote andit's lovely to see even
California is like three, fourhours behind New York.
So it's cool that that they'rewilling to work with some of the
UK.
It's pretty awesome.
Sophie Fell (34:15):
Yeah, we have.
We have a nice crossover.
We have four hours in themorning when we cross over,
which is why it's so dark hereright now and we've got
fireworks going on.
Danny Gavin (34:25):
Any difficulty between pound dollar type of
conversion?
I would say from like a PPCperspective.
I don't know.
Sophie Fell (34:32):
So all our clients right now are based in
California, so that's prettystraightforward.
We don't have the DST issuethat we have in Europe.
You know where you have to tack.
On another, I think it's 3.5%,2.5%.
You guys don't have that outthere, so that's nice as well.
It's nice for clients, too, tonot have to pay that.
Other than that, no, nothing sofar, but I'm touching wood.
Danny Gavin (34:55):
Sophie, what's your next big project?
Sophie Fell (34:57):
Oh goodness.
Well, we are hoping to reallyexpand Two Trees out into the UK
market, which is really reallyexciting.
So it's what we've done thelast few months kind of planning
, plotting, scheming towards.
So our owner, mike, is from theUK and his whole family are
here and he has his fiance inCalifornia and they'd quite like
(35:18):
to, you know, come back andforth and stuff.
So I think, yeah, I thinkthat's our big focus for 2025,
honestly, is expansion.
Yeah, that's the main thingwe're working on right now,
which is really, really exciting.
Danny Gavin (35:31):
So where can listeners learn more about you
and your business?
Sophie Fell (35:33):
So they can come to twotreesppccom to find more
about us.
You will probably find me onLinkedIn, sophie Fell, and then
I have links to.
You know everywhere else thatyou need to find me, but
linkedin's the main place whereyou'll find me talking about
paid media and other nonsense.
Danny Gavin (35:49):
So definitely come over and say hi, and definitely
check out sophie's book, theultimate beginner's guide to ppc
uh, don't forget about that oneas well yeah, I have to plug
the book too.
Sophie Fell (35:59):
Totally.
Danny Gavin (35:59):
Well, sophie.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the Digital Marketing
Mentor and thank you, listeners,for tuning into the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Thank you for listening to theDigital Marketing Mentor podcast
.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
(36:19):
Apple Podcasts, spotify orwherever you listen to your
podcasts, for more marketingmentor magic.
See you next time.
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, Danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Hello everyone, I'm Danny Gavin, founder of Optage, Marketing
(00:27):
Professor and the host of theDigital Marketing Mentor.
Today we have a very specialguest, Sophie Fell, who's
director of paid media for TwoTrees PPC.
Two Trees PPC is aCalifornia-based online
advertising agency specializingin increasing profit and revenue
through expertly crafted PPCstreaming TV ads and paid social
campaigns.
Sophie brings nearly a decadeof experience in PPC streaming
TV ads and paid social campaigns.
(00:48):
Sophie brings nearly a decadeof experience in PPC and social
media ads, having managedimpressive budgets exceeding
$200 million.
Her expertise spans variousbusinesses, from small solo
ventures to internationallyrenowned brands like LinkedIn,
Juicy Couture, Fila and NationalTrust.
In addition to being a veryhands-on director of paid media,
Sophie has authored two booksand dozens of blogs on the
subject.
She's also recently spoken atBrighton SEO and today we're
(01:10):
going to talk about mentorshipand about the world of PPC.
How are you?
Sophie Fell (01:14):
I'm good.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Danny Gavin (01:17):
Me too, and it was a happen chance to meet you on
LinkedIn and I'm so glad that wewere able to do that.
I bought your book and I'm like, okay, now I need to have
Sophie on the.
You bought the book, I did.
Sophie Fell (01:28):
Oh, I love that, thank you.
Danny Gavin (01:30):
Yeah, and I was like we had to have Sophie on
the pod, so we're so glad you'rehere.
Sophie Fell (01:33):
Oh, thank you so much.
I can't believe you bought thebook.
Yeah, of course.
Danny Gavin (01:44):
It's difficult.
So typically we start off theconversation like where you went
to school, what you studied.
But I know, sophie, you didn'tget a degree.
Let's talk about that.
Why didn't you go to university?
And then, obviously, let's talkabout so how did you get into
marketing?
Sophie Fell (02:00):
I have a bit of a funny story about why I didn't
go to uni.
So I always planned to since Iwas like seven years old.
That was a part of my path andI actually fell pregnant.
So I have an 11 year old now.
This is so long ago.
So I got pregnant instead ofgoing to university.
That's always what I say.
That was my path, and then itmeant that I then kind of used
(02:22):
that time to get into marketing.
You know, after maternity leaveI started a sales job and then
basically I started working at astartup company and they said
hey, you're the youngest personhere, you can work Facebook
right.
And I was like sure, I can workFacebook.
And that was it.
That was the, that was themoment.
(02:42):
So now it's been, like you said, nearly a decade in marketing.
And yeah, all started off withjust doing some Facebook posts
nearly 10 years ago now.
Danny Gavin (02:52):
Wow.
And that's so inspiring becauseI run a digital fundamentals
course and we have a specialcohort just for women and like
you are like the poster child,where, like you have a kid, you
may not know everything, butlike you're willing to like say,
hey, I'm gonna jump in and doit, and both those things you
know were sort of like therocket pad or the launch pad to
get where you're at today.
(03:13):
So I love that.
That's like I could have paidyou to say that, but I didn't,
you just said it, which is socool yeah, it's funny.
Sophie Fell (03:20):
Um, I actually get asked a lot like, oh, what you
know, what's your degree or whatdid you go to college or uni
for?
But yeah, didn't do it, butjust put in the time in
marketing instead.
So, and it worked out for mepersonally, it worked out, so
it's great.
Danny Gavin (03:35):
So I know you did a digital marketing strategy
certification course at auniversity.
Love to get your experience orperspective on kind of
formalized marketing educationversus you know YouTube and just
doing it.
Sophie Fell (03:46):
I will say, with every super formalized one I've
done, I have always found itvery broad, which is great, and
I think that's what it's forright, not kind of necessarily
the deep dive or the day-to-dayhow-to, but more the theory.
So I think it's good to have Idon't think it's the be-all and
end all.
Honestly, I think having thatfoundation knowledge again
(04:07):
always super helpful, thosefundamentals and the theory
behind it.
I think that makes you betterat the day-to-day.
But in terms of kind of youknow whether it's going into the
platforms or adding a negativekeyword or you know bidding
strategies and things like that,user-created ones, like things
on Udemy and YouTube, thosetutorials, things like that are
(04:31):
normally your best bet.
So I would say fundamentals andthat structure training
definitely important.
But in terms of the day-to-day,I personally find YouTube and
Reddit a bit more helpful.
Danny Gavin (04:38):
And following people like you.
Sophie Fell (04:41):
Well, I was going to say but I'm reading my book.
Well, you know, I was going tosay but I'm reading my book.
Danny Gavin (04:45):
When you look back at like that initial job where
you were working Facebook, anylike specific early events that
happened, that you maybe pavedyour path to actually go in this
full time and, you know, createa career out of it.
Sophie Fell (04:59):
Do you know what?
Very early on, I fell in lovewith the analytics side of it.
I think it's one thing craftinggreat posts and all that kind
of thing, but we actuallymanaged to grow the following
from, I think it was 6,000 to50,000 in about four or five
months.
That was my first bigachievement.
I, you know, exceeded what wethought you know we'd ever
achieve.
It was just a very smallstartup with a few of us in a
(05:20):
barn in the middle of nowhere,so that was really great and
that for me, and seeing theanalytics and those audience
insights, those were the thingsthat really clicked.
And then, like I said, that wasit from there.
That was, you know, doing someposts on Facebook, and then that
was it.
Just absolutely fell in lovewith digital marketing.
Danny Gavin (05:38):
So, sophie, how would you define a mentor?
Sophie Fell (05:40):
Sometimes, when we talk about mentoring in general,
we tend to think of it as thisperson that's up here kind of
talking down to you, you know,and that support.
But I think a two-waycollaboration is always really
helpful.
So I think someone that canempathize with you maybe they
have been where you are before,or maybe it's even a peer, I
think, somewhere where there'sthat trust and confidence and
(06:04):
mutual respect I think are thereally key things to making
mentoring work.
So I think it's you know, amentor can be anyone, right, it
can be your family, it can beyour friends.
So I don't think it necessarilyhas to be that structured,
Someone that's you know, yearsahead of you in their career.
I think sometimes a mentor canbe again, a trusted friend, a
(06:27):
trusted sounding board for sure.
Danny Gavin (06:29):
So let's talk about some of your most influential
mentors.
So you've mentioned in the pastKevin Ashley, who I believe was
one of your first bosses.
Let's talk about him.
Sophie Fell (06:42):
He was.
Oh, kevin, I love him.
I did this role where I wasdoing Facebook ads, moved into
kind of Google ads, googleanalytics, digital marketing in
general.
That was my first role.
I made it to marketing managerand then I left and went in
house as a marketing manager.
That was an extraordinary leap,like, looking back at it now,
I'm like I don't know how I gotthat job, I don't know how I got
away with it.
And Kevin was my boss there.
He was the COO.
(07:02):
Sometimes you just meet someoneand you click right.
I mean there's like a 40-yearage gap between us, maybe 30.
Oh, kevin, if you're watchingthis, maybe it's 30 years.
I'm so sorry, but we justclicked and he was someone that
I could be very honest withabout what I was struggling with
(07:22):
, both in my work and, you know,even outside of work.
I think he was someone we hadshared goals across our
department.
So we kind of naturallycollaborated on those things and
he was someone that you couldhave a very, again, open and
honest discussion with.
And I think that was when Ifirst learned and I was 22, 23,
that was when I first learnedyou can have a boss that, like,
(07:44):
does respect you.
It doesn't have to be, thisagain hierarchical I'm not sure
how you say that word now.
There doesn't have to be ahierarchy between the two of you
.
You can have again that mutualrespect, that balance, and
figure out the pros and cons ofeach of you and how you work
together really well.
So I think having that sort ofrelationship really changed a
(08:08):
lot of things for me.
Actually, again my expectationsof a mentor, a boss you know he
set the standard very high and,yeah, someone that you can
truly collaborate with and yeah,he's someone.
So that was seven years ago nowthat I had that job and we
still speak all the time, anykind of issues I have or any,
you know, just chatting aboutlife, and we still catch up
(08:30):
about life and work.
So, yeah, he was my bigtransformation in a lot of ways.
Danny Gavin (08:36):
Meeting Kevin, yeah , so tell me about that
discussion.
You know, one day you walk intohis office and say, hey, I want
to become a freelancer.
How did that conversation go?
Sophie Fell (08:44):
So he knew that I was already kind of freelancing
on the side.
He was aware again, he was veryaware of what was going on in
my life.
So it wasn't I don't think hewas shocked.
I think he was disappointedthat I was leaving but also was
like saw another opportunity.
You know it was like, okay,this chapter's closing, but what
else can we do?
So I actually continued workingwith him on a freelance basis
(09:07):
for a little while afterwardsand he was like my first client.
We worked together for another,maybe another year, another 18
months after that, and then onceevery few months I'd go in and
like give him a hand with hisbrand and stuff as well.
He took it pretty well and hewas a former freelancer too.
So he gave me ideas on dayrates and how I could put myself
(09:28):
out there and that as well, andgave me referrals and things
like that too.
So although the initialconversation I was dreading
again, it worked out well in theend so turning the tables who
do you mentor in your currentposition?
So I have Samuel, who is ourmedia buyer, so he's who I
mentor day to day.
Every day he gets to put upwith me.
(09:48):
And then I have two othermentees who I volunteer mentor
outside of work Hannah and Meg.
They're both young women inmarketing and I absolutely love
speaking to them.
It's the highlight of my day.
So three mentees right now.
Danny Gavin (10:03):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Some people don't even have one, so that's great.
Sophie Fell (10:06):
I'm hoarding them all, yeah, basically.
Danny Gavin (10:09):
So what are your keys to mentoring success?
And maybe it might be differentbetween Samuel and the ladies,
but what would you say are yourkeys to being a good mentor and
mentoring them?
Sophie Fell (10:19):
For me, I always try and start with their goals.
Normally, when someone'sseeking out mentorship,
particularly someone that youdon't work with, there's
something right, there'ssomething they're not ready for,
or they are ready for but it'snot happening, or there's just
always one or two things thatthey want to kind of work
through.
So I think for me, it'sidentifying why do you think you
(10:43):
need help you know what is that, that missing link for you and
then kind of plotting out theirgoals and their path, where they
would like to be, what this newthing is that they want to do
maybe they're not quite readyyet and then identifying the
steps to get there.
So I think for me, that what isyour goal, what are you trying
to achieve, is the main thing,and it's how I normally get to
(11:05):
the root cause of whatever it isthat's going on.
I try my best to again fosterthat collaborative, mutual
relationship too.
So I will be very honest too.
I will say you know, I messedthis up, or this happened, or
this is what's going on for metoo, because, again, I think
it's really important thatyou're on the same level.
(11:28):
You know you're not.
I don't want to be put on apedestal, right.
I would like us to have againthose transparent, honest, open
conversations.
So I think those are the twomain things that's, identifying
their goals and what they'retrying to achieve, but also
creating, you know, a friendshipultimately, so they feel that
they can be honest.
Danny Gavin (11:49):
So let's talk about your book a little bit.
What sparked your interest inwriting a book about PPC?
Sophie Fell (11:53):
It literally came about because I'd written so
many blogs at this point that Iwas like I could turn this into
a book.
And that is how it all began.
So it was literally.
I had a massive Google Drivefolder full of everything I'd
spoken about about Google Adsfor the last however many years
maybe four or five yearsconsistently writing about this
(12:13):
and I thought I think I can turnthis into a book.
So that was honestly it.
Looking at a folder in myGoogle Drive, I'm saying I think
I already have the content forthis.
Let's shape it, let's mold it,let's update it, let's see if we
can create a book.
Danny Gavin (12:27):
Love it.
So, even though this is not apodcast about content marketing,
but it just shows you that ifyou've got content, you
repurpose it, and this is aperfect example.
Sophie Fell (12:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Danny Gavin (12:38):
So, for those who haven't read it yet, what are
some of the key takeaways, orwhat they can see if they read?
Sophie Fell (12:42):
It's kind of for a relatively broad audience, so
people that are new to PPC,maybe experts in digital
marketing, but want to take abit of a deeper dive into what's
possible and what you can do.
There are a lot of smallbusiness owners that have bought
it and read it, which is great,really nice to hear their
feedback too.
You know someone that wears allthe hats in their organization
(13:03):
to Google ads in particular soaccessible that it feels easy to
do, but there are so many tips,tricks you know best practices,
worst practices, even if youneed to follow to make it work.
So I think that's the overallaim is to kind of hand the power
back to whoever this person iswho's reading the book, to
(13:24):
really have confidence in whatthey're creating and also be
able to manage and optimizeeffectively too.
So those are the main takeawaysis just really how to manage
your account in the bestpossible way and how to create
ideally the best performingcampaigns for you and your brand
.
Danny Gavin (13:41):
That's awesome.
You kind of sparked an idea ora thought.
You know when you speak to aclient and they're not sure what
they want to do and like oh, wethink PPC is good for you.
Like, ah, I tried it already.
It didn't work.
Sophie Fell (13:52):
Yes yeah, I still have that conversation so often.
In fact, our biggest case studythat we just had was because I
begged a CMO to let me do GoogleAds for them.
We were already doing theirmeta ads and things on TikTok
and LinkedIn and they were likeno, we've run Google Search for
years, it just doesn't work forus, like we know it doesn't work
(14:14):
for us, and we generatedmillions for them from Google
Search.
Danny Gavin (14:20):
It worked it worked .
Sophie Fell (14:21):
But that's the thing I think.
Even today, in 2024, 2025,people have so many
misconceptions.
They still don't trust GoogleSearch, and it's the job of
people like me to convince them,show them that it works.
Danny Gavin (14:34):
Moving into building a career in PPC what
skills are most important todevelop for Moving into building
a career in PPC?
What skills are most importantto develop for someone starting
a career or without PPCexperience?
Sophie Fell (14:42):
I mean it's one thing to be able to manage the
UI and physically createcampaigns and things like that
that's one thing, right.
But I do think the analysisside and the number side of it
is so important and I think itgets overlooked so much.
Right, like data-drivendecision-making shouldn't be a
buzzword, right, we shouldalways be making decisions based
(15:04):
on data, and that optimizationpiece gets overlooked so often.
And natural love for the dataand seeing nice green graphs
everywhere, that helps for sure.
Realistically, anyone can learnthe UI.
I mean, how many uis have youexperienced?
What's 10 years, 20 years?
You know a lot.
We're learning all the time,right, how to navigate.
(15:26):
So I think that side of thingsand the campaign creation google
have got that down right.
That's, that's easy.
But I think, yeah, the dataanalysis bit bit is such a huge
part of making campaignssuccessful, both in the short
term and the long term, thatthat bit's a really critical
piece that I think reallyseparates kind of beginners from
(15:46):
people that are really takingit seriously.
Danny Gavin (15:49):
In your experience.
Do you feel like that'ssomething you can learn or do
you kind of have to have anatural knack for it?
Because it is?
You know, it's kind of hardalways to put out a rule book, a
guidebook hey, in order tooptimize, you have to do this or
this right.
It's difficult becausesometimes you kind of have to
look at it and you know with theexperience it tells you right
what needs to be done.
What's your thought on that?
Sophie Fell (16:10):
I think it's a learned skill that you can have
with time.
It just comes with time andexperience, right?
Like maybe you or I can look atan account and look at one
metric and go, cool, I knowwhat's happened.
Like I know what's going on, Ican understand this.
There are so many metrics toconsider and then you also have
to have your own personal memorybank of this metric's important
(16:31):
on this account and thismetric's important on this
account and you know.
So I do think it can be learned.
I think the most crucial thingis experience and experiencing
the impact that your changeshave on the metrics and having
to explain how the changesyou've made impact those metrics
too.
I think that experience really,really takes you far.
Danny Gavin (16:52):
A previous guest, corey Henke, recently posted and
I know he speaks about this ingeneral, but about how important
it is for a media buyer to knowmultiple platforms and to
understand the whole funnel.
On the other hand, we knowthere's people out there who are
like specialists when it comesto Google Ads and know exactly
and they don't talk aboutanything else how important is
(17:13):
gaining experience acrossdifferent media platforms
advertising platforms likeGoogle, microsoft, meta, tiktok
how important is that?
Sophie Fell (17:20):
I'm going to go with the typical answer of it
depends.
Danny Gavin (17:23):
It's okay.
Because it really does I thinkthat's important because it
means that both are true, buttell us why.
Sophie Fell (17:29):
Yeah, absolutely, it depends, right?
I mean, if you're like aT-shaped marketer, you don't
need to know absolutelyeverything, right?
You need to know, know how itall works, what kind of
audiences are available andthings like that.
But you're also concentratingon, you know, seo, websites,
brand, all these other thingsover here, pr.
So I think both are right.
Again, it depends what you wantto do.
If you want to become so, forexample, so I'm the director of
(17:51):
paid media, so I need to knowwhat all these, what all of them
do, right.
But if I was director of ppc, Iwould just need to know google
and microsoft, what all of themdo, right.
But if I was director of PPC, Iwould just need to know Google
and Microsoft and maybe Yahooand Naver and all those, all
those ones too.
So it really does depend what,what you want to do and where
you kind of see your, yourfuture career.
I would say don't you know, youdon't have to become a
(18:12):
specialist yet you know,becoming a T-shaped marketer is
brilliant.
You can do all the things youknow.
Yeah, it really depends on yourambitions and goals and also
what your clients or you know,if you're at an agency or the
brand you work for, what theywant, too right.
(18:32):
If they only want you to doLinkedIn ads and that's the only
thing that ever worked for them, then there's no point you
knowing the ins and outs ofGoogle if you're not going to
use it, you know so yeah, itreally just does depend on where
you are in your career, whereyou want to be in the future and
, I guess, again, therequirements of the businesses
you're working for.
Danny Gavin (18:48):
So you mentioned T-shaped marketer.
That's a phrase that I useoften.
Sophie Fell (18:55):
And I realize I don't know what it is.
Danny Gavin (18:57):
But the reason why it's called a T-shaped marketer
is because a lot of marketers atthe top of the T right.
They have an understanding, agood understanding, of every
part of marketing, whether it'sSEO, like you said, brand PR.
But most people find a love inone or two areas and in there
that's where they go deepno-transcript.
(19:42):
Thanks, sophie.
So how do you handle thepressure of managing large PPC
budgets and what advice wouldyou give to someone new to
managing significant spend?
And before I let you answerthat, it's kind of interesting
for people who don't know.
But it's kind of like, in orderto manage a large budget, you
kind of like someone's going tosay have you managed one before?
So, it's kind of like how doyou get that first one?
(20:02):
And it seems overwhelming.
I'd love to talk about that.
Sophie Fell (20:04):
So I always give everyone I've worked with the
same advice.
When they're leaping from maybeyou know, 5,000 a month or
1,000 a month, even to 100,000 amonth, or 20,000 a month,
whatever to $100,000 a month or$20,000 a month, whatever that
leap looks like, thefundamentals are still the same
and I kind of tell them toignore the budget.
Right, because I think it's soeasy to get sucked into the
(20:26):
budget and budget-relatedmetrics and you can really focus
on that.
But the core fundamentals arestill the same.
Right, you still want a goodCTR, you still want a good
conversion rate.
So that's always the adviceI've given over the years.
It feels overwhelming, but thefundamental concepts are the
same.
You should manage it in thesame way.
(20:47):
If anything, managing lowerbudgets is harder.
It's much harder, much morework, much more optimization
needed than with large budgets.
So I would try to.
Yeah, I mean my advice is justignore the budgets where
possible and try and stick tothose fundamentals that you know
so well.
Danny Gavin (21:06):
And what about convincing someone that, like I
know PPC and the fact that I'mgoing to manage maybe a budget
that's five, you know, six timesmore than I'm used to?
How do they sell themselves onthat?
Sophie Fell (21:17):
Again, I think we're talking about this more in
paid media and PPC at themoment, which I think is a
really good thing, and I thinkif you can make an account work
with a minuscule budget, that isso much more impressive than
have been given a million a yearand figuring that out, and I
think people in the communityand the wider community are
(21:40):
starting to realize that a bitmore too.
It's easy if you've gotconversion tracking set up and
you've got hundreds of thousandsof dollars every month.
That's, you know.
It's easy, not simple.
You're not, you know,guaranteed to get results, but
that's easy to do because Googledoes the hard work for you.
If you are managingconsistently small budgets and
(22:00):
you have those case studieswhere you've generated ROAS,
you've generated a return, Ithink that can go a really long
way in convincing or reassuringsomeone that you know what
you're doing, because you haveto have that attention to detail
and you have to be so much moreon the ball with those small
budgets.
So, yeah, if anything, I thinkit takes more skill to manage
(22:22):
lower budgets, for sure.
Danny Gavin (22:24):
So moving up funnel a bit, why do many brands fail
with their top of funnel paidsearch campaigns and what is the
common misconception aboutthese campaigns?
Sophie Fell (22:33):
I have been harping on about this a lot in 2024.
So I'm excited to have theopportunity to talk about it
again.
I think one of the main thingswe've seen again over the last
five to 10 years is that becausewe've always been so fixated
and we've always used last clickattribution, top of funnel and
middle of funnel campaignsalways look like they don't work
(22:55):
right.
They will always appear to notwork and you know a lot of
brands haven't got kind ofcross-channel measurement right
yet and I think you know youcould have a massive TV campaign
running and then your bottom offunnel Google ads are going to
look great.
But any time in my experiencethat I've tried doing this too,
(23:17):
it has been so hard to justifythe ROI and the return on
creating top and middle funnelads.
So I think that we think itdoesn't work and that's why we
shy away from it so much at themoment.
And I think where we get itwrong is that we still focus on
those lower funnel actions, isthat we still focus on those
(23:38):
lower funnel actions.
So we try and use top of funneland middle of funnel search to
drive conversions and then veryquickly it doesn't work right.
We see that it doesn't work.
That misconception and thatconcentrating on the wrong
metric and not concentrating on,you know, viewability and
engagement metrics has reallymade us suffer, whereas we never
have a problem with this onlike Meta or any other platform,
(24:00):
right, if we create a brandawareness campaign, we are
looking at awareness metrics andon Google Ads and PPC, we don't
seem to do that, we don't seemto carry that across.
So that I would say is thebiggest misconception, that
Google Ads doesn't work for topof funnel and middle funnel.
And I think by redefining whatmetrics we and KPIs we want for
(24:22):
success, I think we can veryquickly show that you can drive
those objectives through GoogleAds for sure.
Danny Gavin (24:29):
And this might be getting into the weeds a bit,
but in the end of the day, iflet's say you have three
campaigns top, middle, bottomand top and middle, from a
conversion perspective, aren'tdoing great right, but let's say
all the other metrics arereally good engagement, and
we're optimizing on what'sactually driving people to the
site and things like that, we'regetting conversions in the
bottom.
Do we say that top and middleare just a cost to doing
business?
(24:49):
Or, technically, do we have tolook at the whole account and
say we need to have positive ROIoverall?
Or if not, then we got aproblem.
So how do you kind of look atthat?
Sophie Fell (25:00):
The way I try to look at it, wherever this data
is available, whether that'sthrough you know campaign
manager or you know whatever itis I think trying to demonstrate
the impact of the top of funneland middle funnel campaigns on
the lower funnel campaigns isthe biggest thing to do, right?
So if we can successfully showthe data and say, look, we got
(25:20):
two clicks or we got two viewson this and then this assisted
this conversion all the way downhere, I think we can kind of
mash together a bit of an ROIfor talk of funnel and mid
funnel.
And I think ultimately I mean,when I've been in agencies and
agencies now that's whatbusinesses are looking for,
right.
So I think there is some workwe can do in terms of the full
(25:45):
funnel attribution and what theattribution model looks like.
When we can do that, we seem tobe able to show that top of
funnel and mid funnel campaignsare actually very successful at
driving those objectives.
Danny Gavin (25:57):
Yeah, that's great, thank you.
So what would you say are someof the red flags when managing
Google ad accounts?
Sophie Fell (26:02):
We'll start with the main one, which is and this
is always the first place I lookis the click-through rate.
That's always the first place Icheck.
So on again in 2024,.
The latest data was kind ofsaying on Google in particular,
we're looking at four to 6%.
It used to be 3%.
It's increasing over time withPerformance, max and everything
(26:24):
else that's coming in andthere's all sorts of going on.
So I normally start therebecause I think that's such an
indicative metric of so manythings.
If the click-through rate'sgood, then I can start looking
in other places.
If the click-through rate's bad, that's normally the root of
the problem, right?
So we're looking at how closelythemed the keywords, the ad
(26:46):
copy, the landing pages are, howgreat the landing page
experience is, all those sortsof things, and I think that
metric is so crucial to successon Google Ads.
I think a low click throughrate is, yeah, always the first
place I look if I'm auditing anaccount.
So definitely the first redflag.
The second red flag would be Ialways check campaign settings
(27:09):
next, because the amount oftimes I have seen the default
settings apply to location andlanguage and thousands of or if
not hundreds of thousands ofdollars wasted by targeting all
languages when your ad copy isin English, or targeting
absolutely everyone in an areaor people interested in an area
(27:29):
that maybe don't live there.
So those are the second redflags, those default campaign
settings and the ones that don'tauto-optimize and show your
best performing ads more oftenas well.
Those three things are so easyto fix as well.
So big red flags if those arewrong, but luckily very easy
fixes and you will see theanalytics change overnight once
(27:54):
those changes are made.
I think the third one comes downto conversion tracking.
Honestly, obviously, if youdon't have any conversion
tracking, that's a red flag, butwe'll move past that.
But I think the best practicesfor conversion tracking have
evolved so much in the lastagain two, three, five years
(28:15):
that what was great in a setup afew years ago now no longer
works right or isn't the bestbest practices anymore.
So when I'm looking atconversion tracking, I want to
see regular conversions comingthrough, of course, and it's all
working perfectly, but I wantto see those primary conversions
set and I want to see somesecondary conversion sets.
Those are kind of the mainthings I'm really looking for.
(28:37):
So I'm expecting to seemultiple conversion types,
ideally some conversion values,if we have them, but then those
primary and secondary ones andthose set at the campaign level
too.
So those would be my threebiggest red flags for Google Ads
account.
Danny Gavin (28:52):
How do you feel about having multiple primary
conversions?
Sophie Fell (28:55):
I think it's okay to have multiple primary
conversions.
I'm okay with that.
I don't hate that.
I don't hate that.
It's just that if you knowyou've got like YouTube
subscriptions as your primaryconversion and you're also
trying to generate leads, youknow you may come into some
issues there, but multipleprimary conversions is fine by
me.
Danny Gavin (29:12):
Yeah, or page views right.
That's not really a greatprimary conversion.
Sophie Fell (29:17):
Yeah, not that either no.
Danny Gavin (29:20):
Any opinion on going straight away to automated
bidding or starting off withmanual?
Where do you stand on thematter right now?
Sophie Fell (29:27):
Oh God, this is controversial.
Danny Gavin (29:29):
I know.
Sophie Fell (29:29):
You're going to get me in trouble on the internet.
So for me, I will always startwith maximized clicks before
going to fully automated likeconversion or conversion value
tracking.
I think it's out of habit,honestly, and it's something
that's always worked for me.
That is where I tend to go.
I am not a fan of manual CPCbidding or manual CPC caps.
(29:53):
I don't think personally.
In my experience, I don't thinkyou need them anymore.
With how far smart bidding andthe algorithms have come along
in the last few years, inparticular, I don't think you
need them unless there's alegitimate reason.
So for me, I'm all aboard withautomated bidding for sure.
Danny Gavin (30:13):
I think that's a very healthy middle ground.
Not manual CPC, not auto, butmax clicks.
I like that.
I think that's safe.
Sophie Fell (30:22):
It's safe.
Again, it's worked for me.
I know you know other peoplewill go one way or the other,
but that's yeah.
I'm a little bit on the fencewith this one.
Danny Gavin (30:31):
Love it With AI coming down the line and AI
overviews any fear that theindustry that we're in right now
, like it's not going to be herein a couple of years.
Sophie Fell (30:41):
It's tricky.
I think it will be here.
I think I just think ourday-to-day jobs are going to
look a little bit different andI think that as marketers, as
people in paid media, as peoplein PPC, I think we just need to
really start focusing on thedata.
I can see our roles evolvingfrom that, like you know, manual
input piece to almost againlike that black box, like how
(31:04):
Performance Max kind of startedoff a couple of years ago, a few
years ago now.
So you know, the manual inputsare limited.
I think.
I do think we'll see PPC andSEO start to align a lot more.
I can imagine ad content comingjust from the website from now
on, you know, from now on in thefuture.
(31:25):
So I hope to see PPC and SEOteams work much more closely
together on that in the future.
Danny Gavin (31:31):
I love that.
I haven't thought about that,but I'm just going to.
I'm going to expound on itbecause I'm actually excited
about that.
So what we're saying is thatwhere ads are going to come from
are from the content on thesite itself.
So having good content on thewebsite is not just about
showing up in organic Google,but it's also feeding the paid
side as well.
(31:52):
I love that.
I haven't thought about that,so thank you for giving me that
idea.
Sophie Fell (31:57):
That's just yeah.
Danny Gavin (31:58):
I like it.
Sophie Fell (31:59):
That's what I'm thinking.
That's what I'm thinking.
It's what I'm thinking BecauseI can imagine, you know, again,
like completely original ads forabsolutely everyone, right,
Hyper personalized, but againwith your website content being
the basis of all of that.
I don't know if that's going tohappen, but that's what I'd
like to see at some point.
And yeah, and I think I dothink again, it's going to be
(32:20):
more about steering the dataright Inputting the right data,
getting the right first partydata, third party data, you know
, whatever, whatever it is, weneed to really steer those
results.
So I think our jobs as we knowit today will change.
I'm hoping they won't beobsolete in the next decade.
Maybe in 2030 years, maybe theywill be.
I think there'll always besomething, but yeah, I can see
that kind of evolution comingfor sure.
Danny Gavin (32:43):
All right, it's time for our lightning round.
I believe you're a little bitof a traveler.
Would love to know what are thetop three places that you
visited.
Sophie Fell (32:50):
So my favorite place has been Barbali.
I just loved it.
I went there for a yoga retreat.
It's very, very hippie of umquite a few years ago, but I I
went for three days, I traveledall the way for three days and I
would.
I've just always wanted to goback.
So I think that was my numberone.
Hong Kong was probably mysecond um, just being in a a
completely different environment.
(33:12):
I just absolutely loved it.
I just loved the, the culture,the environment, um, I spent
about a week there and againwould love to go back.
And my third one.
So I'm obviously British.
So anywhere in Europe, I'malways, you know, generally
quite happy Anywhere warm inEurope.
So you know, spain, portugal,places like that I'm pretty, I
(33:34):
feel pretty at home there.
So those would be my top three.
Danny Gavin (33:37):
And related to travel.
What actually brought you toCalifornia?
Sophie Fell (33:40):
So okay, so this is really awkward.
So I'm not actually inCalifornia, so the company is
but I'm in the UK.
Danny Gavin (33:48):
Okay, I was wondering, like, what's someone
from the UK doing in California?
Sophie Fell (33:52):
I know so, my boss is from the UK and lives in
California, so I'm not.
I'm in the UK, but I just workremotely with them.
Danny Gavin (34:02):
So I love it no no, no, that makes a lot of sense.
No, I'm very pro remote andit's lovely to see even
California is like three, fourhours behind New York.
So it's cool that that they'rewilling to work with some of the
UK.
It's pretty awesome.
Sophie Fell (34:15):
Yeah, we have.
We have a nice crossover.
We have four hours in themorning when we cross over,
which is why it's so dark hereright now and we've got
fireworks going on.
Danny Gavin (34:25):
Any difficulty between pound dollar type of
conversion?
I would say from like a PPCperspective.
I don't know.
Sophie Fell (34:32):
So all our clients right now are based in
California, so that's prettystraightforward.
We don't have the DST issuethat we have in Europe.
You know where you have to tack.
On another, I think it's 3.5%,2.5%.
You guys don't have that outthere, so that's nice as well.
It's nice for clients, too, tonot have to pay that.
Other than that, no, nothing sofar, but I'm touching wood.
Danny Gavin (34:55):
Sophie, what's your next big project?
Sophie Fell (34:57):
Oh goodness.
Well, we are hoping to reallyexpand Two Trees out into the UK
market, which is really reallyexciting.
So it's what we've done thelast few months kind of planning
, plotting, scheming towards.
So our owner, mike, is from theUK and his whole family are
here and he has his fiance inCalifornia and they'd quite like
(35:18):
to, you know, come back andforth and stuff.
So I think, yeah, I thinkthat's our big focus for 2025,
honestly, is expansion.
Yeah, that's the main thingwe're working on right now,
which is really, really exciting.
Danny Gavin (35:31):
So where can listeners learn more about you
and your business?
Sophie Fell (35:33):
So they can come to twotreesppccom to find more
about us.
You will probably find me onLinkedIn, sophie Fell, and then
I have links to.
You know everywhere else thatyou need to find me, but
linkedin's the main place whereyou'll find me talking about
paid media and other nonsense.
Danny Gavin (35:49):
So definitely come over and say hi, and definitely
check out sophie's book, theultimate beginner's guide to ppc
uh, don't forget about that oneas well yeah, I have to plug
the book too.
Sophie Fell (35:59):
Totally.
Danny Gavin (35:59):
Well, sophie.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the Digital Marketing
Mentor and thank you, listeners,for tuning into the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Thank you for listening to theDigital Marketing Mentor podcast
.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
(36:19):
Apple Podcasts, spotify orwherever you listen to your
podcasts, for more marketingmentor magic.
See you next time.
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