080: Curiosity, Community, & Confidence: Ameet’s Journey to PPC Leadership

Episode Transcript
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Danny Gavin (00:05):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, and, together with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Hello, I'm Danny Gavin, founderof Optage marketing professor

(00:27):
and the host of the DigitalMarketing Mentor.
Now get ready to get human.
Is the founder and owner ofHopskip Media.
She's a former Google Partnersambassador and rising star.
Amit has spoken at many topdigital marketing conferences,

(00:50):
including Hero Conference andBrighton.
She also regularly contributesto Search Engine Journal and has
been nominated several times asone of the most influential PPC
professional.
Today, we're going to talkabout paid search, ai and paid
search agency leadership and, ofcourse, mentorship.
How are you doing, amit?

Ameet Khabra (01:04):
I am fantastic.
How are you?

Good I'm doing.
Well.
It's always fun to speak withpeople who are about like at the
same timeline of me, so, likeI've started professionally in
around 2010,.
Similar to you, we both runagencies, so it's kind of.
It's always nice to speak tolike real peers, so I'm so glad
you're here, I know Cause.

(01:26):
Then you're just like well, howdo you do this?
And then like but, as we know,in our industry there's a lot
more friends than foes, you know.

Definitely true, definitely.
I don't think I've ever walkedinto or not walked into, but
walked up to a PPCer and asked aquestion and then turn around
and be like I'm not answeringthat, like I think we've got a
really great community it, Ithink we've got a really great
community it's.
Yeah, it's quite amazing.
I love it.

All right, so let's jump in.
Where did you go to school andwhat did you study?

It's called Kwatlin Polytechnic University.
It was technically a communitycollege before I got there and
then they upgraded toPolytechnic, which I have no
idea what that means.
I never bothered finding outbecause I was like who really
cares?
Originally I was in school forbusiness administration with a
minor in entrepreneurialleadership and I took one macro
class and went this is not forme, I don't want to do this.

(02:10):
Then I tried withmicroeconomics and it still made
no sense.
So eventually I took all mycredits and was like marketing,
this is where most of my creditsgo.
And that's kind of basically theorigin story of how I ended up
here.
Three-hour class in computersciences where he was going over
email marketing content, googleAds, analytics and for whatever

(02:31):
reason and I think it wascertification-related because
they had the Google Ads andanalytics certifications.
I think I wrote that downbecause of that reason.
And then, like a year and ahalf, maybe two years later, I
opened the book up and went, oh,I should probably try doing
this, hey, and then that was theend of it.
Then eventually I started likeactually working for other

(02:51):
agents or not other agencies.
I started working at a cardealership Basically, they owned
and sold car dealerships in asense, and then I ended up in an
agency and then started my ownsomehow.
So all of it actually stemsfrom my origin.
Story of how I got here alsostems from school.

That's amazing, and I also know you have an
audio engineering and productiondiploma from the Pacific
Audiovisual Institute.
You want to tell me about that.

For a quick second.
I thought I could be the nextSkrillex.
I was obsessed with EDM at thatpoint and then, for whatever
reason, I was like you know what, let's try this out.
Like I've always loved music, Idon't really have like a
natural talent.
Unfortunately, my dad is a verylike I think he's a very gifted
singer, so I think I get themusical love from him, but I did

(03:39):
not get the talent,unfortunately.
So I was like let's try this.
And that was right after Ifinished the marketing diploma
or certificate or whatever.

I had done.

And I remember when I walked into class
everybody was just like who isthis person?
Why is she here?
And then they all got to thelast semester and realized that
business was a big thing andthey were like, oh, and I'm like
, yeah, I had.
I'm like I saw that I had avision.
Y'all didn't see it.
And I'm like I'm like I sawthat I had a vision.
Y'all didn't see it.
And I'm like now you're payingketchup and I don't have to, and
I'm like we're cool.
So it was interesting.

(04:08):
It was just kind of one ofthose things where I was like I
kind of want to try it and Iwent for it and I actually ended
up doing some work in likesound design instead, because
I'm very like a regimentedperson, like I love accuracy and

(04:29):
everything.
So being able to do soundeffects and have it teed up to
someone kicking rocks it justfed that side of me that needs
that precision so well.
So I excelled in that role.
But in terms of the musicalproducing side of things, I was
more of someone who organized itversus being the person who was
actually like maybe we shouldtry that take again, because I
did not hear what was wrong withit.

But I love how adventurous you were right,
trying different things out andseeing what works for you.
That's really really awesome.
So when you look at yourexperiences both inside and
outside the classroom aroundthose times right when you were
at those two universities orcolleges any other experiences
that you look back and be likeooh, that kind of paved my way
to how I do things today.

I think it's just naturally how I've always
kind of been very inquisitive,asking a lot of questions.
So when I was in school, I wasthe dorky one who stayed back
after class just to talk to theprofessor, the instructor,
whoever it was, asked somerandom questions that made no
sense for me to ask.
And then years later I was like, oh yeah, kim told me that, or
yeah, danny told me that, oryeah, that guy told me that.

(05:29):
And I'm like, oh interesting,it was just like this weird way
that I was building these blockswithout realizing it.
Yeah, so I think for me it wasmore or less of just being that
person who constantly was justasking those random questions.

You know it's so cool.
You're not the first personlike successful digital marketer
who's told me like they werethe one who stayed back and
asked the professor questions.
I've actually hired I mean, Idon't know if you know, but I'm
a professor also, so I'veactually hired students because
of that, like they're actuallycoming up and asking those
additional questions, likethey're just the ones who you
know stand out a little bit moreand care a little bit more and

(06:02):
that could make a hugedifference.

It really does, especially if they're saying hey
, I know your time is valuable,I just want to ask you these
really specific questions andstuff like that.
I think that really has themark of someone who has thought
about it and that's how I'vealways operated.
So when I started in thecommunity, it was still on
Google Streams.
I don't know if everybodyremembers Google Streams from
back in the day.
Oh, it was like, yeah, Google'sversion of trying to compete

(06:27):
with meta, but it just never did.
But they had the Google Partnercommunity on there and that's
how I just randomly somehowfound it one day and I would
just sit there and I would postquestions and be like okay, so I
tried this, this, this and this.
None of it worked.
What's the answer?
And I think the reason whypeople were so like quick to
help me was because they're likeyou've tried, you've attempted,

(06:47):
you just unfortunately were notsuccessful.
Therefore, I'm going to helpyou, right?
Because, like we want to helppeople who have tried, we don't
want to help people who havegiven up.
So I think that was kind oflike the difference where I was
able to get like that earlybuy-in, because I was just so
motivated to find the answer andwas just looking for somebody
to help me find the answerversus giving it to me.

So, Amit, how would you define a mentor?

For me.
I think mentorship is more orless of just having somebody
there when I need thosequestions to kind of gently
guide me, kind of like atherapist in a sense.
I don't want somebody to tellme what to do.
I want them to maybe look backat what they've done and then
kind of I don't know if this islike the analyst in me, but I
just want somebody to triggerthoughts.
Like I can see things from 5,20 different angles in a split

(07:32):
second.
But sometimes I don't knowwhere to start and I think
having a mentor for me hasalways been really valuable in
getting someone to help me startthinking about it.
I don't necessarily need themto get me to the finish line, I
just need them to get me tostart.
If they can help me to thefinish line, of course I would
love it, but I think it's moreor less for me it's the start of
it.
How do I find someone to helpme think differently?

So let's talk about some of your most
influential mentors.
Let's start with your firstmentor, Julie Friedman.

So, yeah, we met on when it was still Twitter.
I'm still going to be callingit Twitter because I don't care.

I don't care enough to call it the other name
as long as you don't call itGoogle AdWords, then I'm okay
with you calling it Twitter, sowe're fine.

I mean, I'm still the AdWords girl online.

I know, I know, whoops, I got to be careful.

I love that one.
I always open all of mypresentations with like I'm
aware it's called Google Ads.
I still like the name a lot, sowe're keeping it.
Guys, Like just do it.
But yeah, it was back inTwitter many, many years ago.
Ppc chat was just another placewhere I was just trying to find
more community, especially whenthe Google partners community
kind of they moved on tosomething called lithiumium and

(08:43):
it just wasn't.
I just didn't like it.
It just didn't work for me.
So I was basically just lookingfor like a new place to talk
about ads, actually basicallyjust because my local community
I was kind of the only one whodid ads at that time.
So then it was just like mestanding around, lone wolf, like
who do I talk to?
And at that point you're justkind of going down and just
being like, well, I I talk to,and at that point you're just
kind of going down and justbeing like, well, I can talk to

(09:05):
myself, but that's not asinteresting, right?
So I went and found PPC Chat andnaturally Julie came with that
package and I'm so glad that shedid because she was just like I
think for her it was the waythat she kind of approached me
was with so much kindness, andit's not different than what
I've experienced from thiscommunity, but it was just still
different.
I don't know how to explainJulie unless you've spoken to

(09:27):
her or met her in some way.
She's just got this reallylovely touch to her that it just
makes you feel like you're in avery safe spot, that you're
with a very safe person Almostkind of feels like home is what
I like to kind of equate it to.
And so I got to sit aroundtalking to her for about random
stuff, whether that be life orPPC stuff, and then eventually

(09:48):
the pandemic hit, and that'swhen my communication with her
increased significantly, andthat's when my participation in
PPC chat started to increasesignificantly as well, Cause I
had felt like I'm like, okay,there's this one person who
literally runs the show andshe's making it evident that she
somewhat believes in me, inwhatever capacity.
Somehow I've convinced her tothat.

(10:09):
Now I feel a little bit moreconfident to go and start
talking to all these people whoI feel are basically the real
deal.
I would say that, like she'sthe reason why I'm in the
position I am now, like theconfidence that she gave me is
the reason why I'm here.

So kind of like, without having that person,
you're're always like secondguessing yourself.
Do I really know what I'mtalking about?
Can I really go out there?
But she basically like kind ofgave that stamp of approval,
like yeah, you can do it.

Yeah, and especially somebody who was
highly regarded, Right.
So that's the other half of it.
If it was anybody else off likeof Twitter, I don't know if I
would care, would have cared asmuch.
It was the person who wasactively.
You know, the PPC chat is Julie, right, and, like everybody,
just loves and adores her somuch.
And I saw that even onlinewhere I was just like okay, if
this person has like some kindof inkling of like this, like

(10:53):
I'm worth I mean it's going tosound bad, but like I'm worthy
of this conversation then I'mgoing to take it and not try to
squander the opportunity that'sbeen given to me.

Yeah, and I wasn't trying to say like it's
just some random Twitter right,like no no, no, no no, no, I
know, I was just saying likecause, yeah, you might think
that yeah, like some Twitterperson said it, no, like Julie
is truly amazing and it'samazing that you were able to
connect that bond with her andhave that bond continue to today
.
Let's move on to your currentdirector.
I believe you pronounce hisname Idris Fashan.

Yeah, I think that's exactly how you would say
it.
I say Idris like the Anglo way,but like I've heard him say it
that way before.

So I guess it's my Hebrew language in me.
What can I say?
Tell me, why has he been amentor to you?

I think our meeting or story or like our
origin story is kind of thecutest thing on the planet Both
agency, I think he got hiredmaybe like a month after me, two
weeks, like very, very shorttime period, and at that time we
were all in our own littlecubbies.
So I was sitting here, he wassitting right behind me, like he
just got placed there.
So every morning I just turnaround and obviously I am who I

(11:59):
am and I'd be like hello, whatare you doing?
And then I would have likethese snacks of like goldfishes
and he hated them when we firstmet and I used to like shove
them down his throat.
Until now he has like three,four bags in his house, like he
at all times because of me.
But like just turning aroundhaving those conversations every
morning with somebody whowasn't stuck in a cubby was

(12:21):
really like how everything kindof started.
He's content or comes from acontent background and then
eventually moved off and starteddoing all of these other things
.
But I think his mentorshipreally started happening when I
left the agency where he and I Idon't know what kind of
continued us to keep in contact,but something did we would meet
for coffee and I'd tell himwhat I was up to and then he'd

(12:43):
be like okay, well, your brandneeds like an actual identity,
like your brand needs this, yourbrand needs that.
And then we would sit in coffeeshops doing these random little
things.
And I remember at one pointit's just kind of funny to see
it almost kind of come true nowwhere I sat there and I was like
I want us to be a content housethat just happens to do PPC.
That was always kind of themission.

(13:06):
And then, obviously, being byyourself, there's only so much
you can do.
And then, when you'refloundering a little bit,
there's only so much you can do.
And now we're kind of in thiscool position where we're almost
kind of starting to movetowards that.
And now I get to look back athim and be like this is what we
were working at, like this waswhat we were talking about seven
years ago.
It's finally happening.
So it was just really cool tohave somebody like him, who
obviously always had my bestinterests at heart, but always

(13:29):
kind of came in and was likeokay, let's just try to.
You did this, let's just do alittle bit of an iteration.
He always kind of pushed me.
I like people when they push me, and he always did that, so for
me he'll always kind of have aspecial spot in my heart.
But I mean, he's part of mycompany too, which is kind of a
testament to how great I thinkhe is.

Yeah, and it's special to have those people
around you who aren't afraid topush back, because that's really
what you want and need.

Yeah, I think a lot of people seem to think that
mentorship is like justsomebody giving you advice, and
I don't believe that to be truein any way, shape or form.
It's someone who's pushing you.
I want someone who's pushingyou.
I want someone who's going tocontinually tell me that I need
to not necessarily do better,but like.
Their expectation of me isslightly above what I'm giving
them right now.

So you gave me the most wonderful gift recently
, which was a comic book.
Was that your idea, or was thatIdris's idea?

No, it was mine.
All of the random stuff thatcomes out of our shop, it's all
me.
I love doing random things.
I love doing random, it's just.
It fuels me.
I think it fuels my creativityin a way that just like doesn't
feel forced I don't feel likeI'm a creative person but like
when I get an idea and it seemsreally, really cool and viable

(14:38):
to me, I hold onto it.
So the comic book was somethingthat I actually thought of.
I want to say, like five yearsago, that it took us like that
long just to get there and itwas just a matter of just having
the right team in place.
And then I finally saw theassets sitting there and I was
like, oh my God, I could use youguys now.
And like our graphic designerjust ran with it.
She had the best time everdoing it and just watching her

(14:59):
take that leadership positionwas like okay, now I feel more
confident for you in the future.
So it was like a nice littleway for me to kind of test out
my team for leadership stuff,which was, yeah, really cool.
I loved that comment book.
I'm so happy to hear that youenjoyed it.

Yeah, totally.
So let's talk about Brian Smithof Blue Train, and some would
say that you would credit himfor your whole career.
That's a big statement, so we'dlove to know what's special
about Brian.

So Brian is the owner of Blue Train Marketing.
I think it might be the end.
It's Blue Train.
So they're also I mean, intechnicality they're a
competitor, but they do.
They're kind of full service.
Brian is somebody that I met, Iwant to say in oh geez, 2013?

(15:44):
Something like that Like longenough that I've forgotten.
I'd finished my Google Adscertification and the analytics
as well, and I started lookingfor jobs and obviously Google
Ads was the natural progression.
So I applied for a position asan account manager Because I was
like I just need At that pointI had no idea what I was doing,
I just needed a job.

(16:04):
That was literally the only endgame.
I remember that day so vividly.
I remember what I wore, Iremember everything.
It's so weird.
I get to the office and we'redoing the interview and I'm
telling him what I'm reallyreally interested in and all
that stuff.
He shows me the office and thenI'm off on my way and then I
get a call from him later thatnight and he goes Amit, I've
been thinking about it and he'slike I don't think you're an

(16:26):
account manager.
And I go okay, and he goes yousound like an analyst.
And he's like really, at thispoint.
We're looking for an accountmanager.
I might have a position for ananalyst open for you.
Let me see if I can create thework.
And unfortunately at that timehe just wasn't able to create
that work for me.
But that little sentence rightthere was like oh, I get it now.
I'm not supposed to be applyingfor these jobs where I'm taking

(16:48):
care of the client, I'msupposed to be the one who's
working behind the scenes.
And that really kind of shapedeverything in that sense where I
was like, oh okay, now I needto make this iteration and go
down this PPC route.
And that's exactly what I did.
So, yeah, I think Brian Smithis the person to credit for at
least, I would say at least 80%of how I ended up here.
Frankly, because if he hadn'tsaid you're an analyst, I don't

(17:12):
know, I don't know, I don't knowif I would have ended up here.
I think I might have continuedtrying to be like an account
manager, because that requiredless experience at that time.

Wow, and if you think about it, because you and
I we both interview people, andhow often do we think about,
obviously, for an interview,we're trying to figure out like
okay, is this person going towork or not?
But like sometimes, just beinghonest and because sometimes
it's scary to be honest in aninterview like maybe be better
this way or that, like thatchanged your whole trajectory.
It just shows you how powerfulthat interaction is and maybe

(17:41):
I'm talking to myself, you'renot you but like we can take
more responsibility of like, ohmy gosh, we've got to be careful
when we do these interviewsbecause it could really change
someone's life to the good or tothe bad.

Yeah, and actually in regards to even that
.
So I'm very active on Instagramor I was, I should say, at one
point where I was constantlydoing stories and I mean we
still create content onInstagram.
It's just that my attention hasbeen split now.
But I remember at one point Iused to talk to so many of my
followers because I had donemore stories and there was this
one person who was also doingGoogle ads and we'd talk about

(18:12):
ads all the time and I'd tellher what I was up to and all
this great stuff, and then allof a sudden, I didn't hear from
her for maybe about, I want tosay like four to six months or
something long enough that I hadnoticed that she was kind of
gone.
And then I went back to try tofind her and her account wasn't
anywhere and I was like, hmm, Iwonder what happened.
So randomly, I opened up myphone and there's a message from

(18:33):
like a new account on Instagramor whatever and I open it up
and it's that person and themessage basically read I
switched careers and meet, andthen literally it was just I saw
how much passion and how muchlove you had for PPC and I
realized that I didn't match itanywhere close to that and that
must mean something.
So she's like I do content nowand I'm significantly happier,

(18:55):
and that story stays with meyears and years and years and I
was like, ah, that was my goodthing that I did.
That was the one good thingthat I did with my career was
the fact that I helped somebodysee that maybe it wasn't for
them as much as I want people to.
I mean, my whole platform istrying to encourage people to
kind of start doing their adsthemselves or for clients or
whatever.

(19:15):
But it was just yeah, it wasjust a really.
It was a really cool moment forme where I was just like, oh,
like I did that, like it was areally cool moment for me where
I was just like, oh, like I didthat, like that was really cool,
like I yeah, I don't know, itwas really cool, I did that.

Yeah, I like to say that giving we get more when
we give right.
So when you can actually seethat I've actually been able to
give and create opportunitiesfor other people, there's
nothing greater than that.
So it's you were blessed tohave that.
Just to know about it, right,because it could have just went
on and you had no clue, right,just like oh, she just
disappeared.

And that's what I thought I was just like.
Oh, she just went off into herown like freelancing career
bubble, whatever else you wantto call it, and, yeah, when she
came back, it was yeah, it wasreally truly a great gift that
she was able to give me.

So now switching the tables, being the mentor.
So I know you're not activelymentoring anyone, but naturally
you have your team, you have thecontent that you put out there.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about, like, how you
interact with people and mentorthem, even if it's not
officially?

I think my interactions are like what I
hope to come off as is like kindof your good friend.
I don't want to say best friendbecause I feel like like for me
, me calling someone my bestfriend means something.
So I want to be like thatreally good friend that you're
able to go to.
I get messages a lot and I tryto respond to them as much as I
possibly can and more often thannot people will be like, oh, I

(20:30):
messaged like four other peopleand they never responded and I
was like, at the very least, ifI know I can help you, I'm going
to try.
And that's just mainly because,like, I don't know, because I
was there, I was literally.
I still put myself in thosescenarios where I'm like I
remember when I was completelyclueless and I had no idea and
this random person helped mefigure this out, and that random

(20:52):
person helped me figure thatout, and the amount of clarity
and the reduction in anxietythat it helped, even if it was
like a one word sentence of likeno, you're doing it wrong.
At least I knew.
Then I can move off and try tofind another solution.
So I kind of just try to takethat same approach where it's
just a nice, safe, easy place tocome to ask your questions,
however you want.

(21:12):
But the feeling that I want youto walk out with is like, oh, I
just had a friend, like myfriend gave me some advice,
versus like somebody that Idon't know.
I think I put people onpedestals a lot and that's just
naturally because for me I wantto gravitate towards that, like
that's the person I want to be.
But I just hate it when peopleput me there.
I don't like it.
It's a really weird feeling.

(21:32):
So then I just try to make itseem as safe and like as like
you're just talking to your peer, you're just talking to your
friend, as much as I possiblycan, just so that way they can
ask questions without feelingthat little bit of embarrassment
that you do when you're askingquestions.
So that's kind of my approachis that I try to bring it down
as much as I possibly can in away that I'm hoping doesn't make
that person feel horrible atthe end of it all.

(21:54):
I mean, most people come back,so I'm assuming that I'm doing
it correctly, but I don't knowfor sure.

So when dealing with your team, there's
obviously a fine line betweenmicromanaging and then also
course correcting.
So how do you make sure thatyou do more of the latter and
less of the former?

I think realizing that you've hired
adults is a big piece to it, andthat's something that I echo
back to my team very, very often, where I was like my
expectation is that you are anadult, you have your task, you
have your job, you do it at thebest of your capability within
the hours that we have alreadylaid out for you and that's it.
And I think that really reallyworks well, because I don't sit

(22:34):
there and say, hey, you have tobe online at 9 am every single
day.
Hey, you have to work full 40hours every single week, as long
as you get your job done, Idon't care.
So then that really helps withlike that pressure of feeling
like they have to do quantityversus quality.
So most of the work that comesout of our house is like I know
this is going to sound a littlecocky, but like really great

(22:55):
work, because I give them thattime.
I literally bake in.
Even when I'm doing like hourallotments for like accounts, I
bake in that time.
I literally bake in even whenI'm doing like hour allotments
for like accounts.
I bake in that time wherethere's like 10 hours of like
who knows what's going to happenthis week and like a lot of
agency owners that I've spokento in the past are like that's
ridiculous.
Like you're just giving them 40hours a week to do nothing and
I'm like, yeah, in that 40 hoursa week they're probably going

(23:16):
to do some reading, they'regoing to probably sleep a little
bit, they're going to go hangout with their kid, maybe
exercise, and I'm like they'resignificantly happier.
But when they come back onMonday, I'm like guess what
happens?
I get the best work out of them.
They spot that error two daysbefore anybody else would have
Like those little things add upand I think that really really
helps especially with thementorship side of it is just

(23:37):
making sure that I don't have tomicromanage them when you've
given them the autonomy to dowhat they feel like is the best
option.
So like really giving them thatthe opportunity to make
decisions without me having tobe involved is a really big
thing that we're working on thisyear, where I feel like some
people are still kind of in thisphase of like let me ask a meet
before I publish this or ask mebefore I do this, and I love

(23:58):
that they care that much, buteventually at some point I'm
going to have to sit there andbe like you own this department.
Now your decision whether wesink or swim on this, like part
of it, has to be yours Cause,like there's only so much that I
can do as an owner after acertain point as well.
So yeah, for me it's reallyempowering them to make their
decisions and then really reallygoing back and telling them
that I trust them, becausethat's the other piece of it

(24:20):
Like I can tell you that you'remore than welcome to make that
decision, but if I'm notfollowing it up with, like I
trust your judgment, you'regoing to constantly think about
it.
So I just for me, I just goback to how I wish I was treated
as an employee at an agency andliterally just do that.

And naturally it also means that you're okay when
they make mistakes, right?
Or and letting them know thatlike, hey, naturally, if I'm
giving you this, it could meanthat you're going to make some
mistakes, but you know what?
That's how you learn and that'show you grow.

Yeah, for me, a mistake is fine, as long as you
learn from it.
If it happens again and again,then we have a problem.
That's when we're going to havea conversation.
Meena Meeta is not somebody youwant to be around.
They haven't seen her yet and Ihope that they don't have to.

I think that's going to be like the second
version of your comic book whenMeena Meet comes out, but in a
good way, that's a really goodidea.
To save the world.
Right Not to fire anyone.

I might have to steal that from you.

You know what.
It's all good.
Okay, let's pivot to AI.
So recently you did a study onhuman versus AI-generated ad
copy and we'd love to talk aboutit.
So what was the goal of thestudy and tell me a little bit
about it.

So the goal of the study was more or less
curiosity.
Really, for me, especially whenit comes to tests and stuff
like that, I think whateverybody will realize is that
most of the stuff I end up doingis more for just answering my
own random questions.
So Google had, at that point,had just recently announced that
Gen I was coming into GoogleAds and I was like, hmm, I

(25:54):
wonder if AI actually couldperform better than human.
And then I sat there and kindof just started going down that
rabbit hole and I was like atthis point we have no way to
definitively know.
So I was like, okay, here's$500.
Let's find out.
Admittedly, the budget was superlow, the timeline was super
short.
There's a lot of caveats tothis, but what the information
gave us was actually prettytelling in the sense of human.

(26:18):
You can't remove us from thecontent writing side of things
quite yet.
So in terms of like results andstuff like that, I think we saw
oh gosh, I have to rememberthis off the top of my head now
in terms of clicks, ai hadgotten 26, human had gotten 65.
Impressions was 713 compared to1,036.

(26:41):
Ctr difference was 3.65compared to 4.85.
And then the CPC, which waslike the biggest difference.
I think it was 605 to 485.
In all accounts, human kickedAI's butt every single time, on
every single metric, and whatthat kind of just told me was
that one.
Even the way that we wrote theads maybe not super duper

(27:03):
different from what AI had done.
What we've learned is thatemotional context and just
understanding how humans talk isnot something that AI is quite
able to figure out quite yet.
Will it be, maybe I don't knowright Like we've got moments of
it everyone talking about howit's going to become sentient
and stuff like that.
But then I'm like at that point, wouldn't it know how to
converse like that?

(27:24):
Like, yeah, I can go down thatrabbit hole pretty hard, but
yeah, so the test basically justshowed us that.
But then I think, really wheremy mind started going even
further was like, okay, well,what about algorithmic biases
and the data privacy side ofthings and all of this other
stuff with biases, like, ifwe're putting in the wrong data,
then naturally that's going toperpetuate.
And even Carnegie Mellon I thinkit was, I want to say 2016

(27:46):
discovered that with ads where,like, high paying ads were being
disproportionately shown toCaucasian men versus women, and
that was really jarring and Ijust sat there and I was like,
okay, well, what else is there?
Like, what else could be there?
So I think there's going to beanother version of this test
somewhere.

(28:06):
I just haven't quite figuredout what exactly it is, but
there's something there.
I know that there's somethingthere.
So that's going to be really,really interesting just to see
it kind of evolve, becauseeventually, like I feel like the
Gen I side of it it's going toend up in like the AARs, and
that's when things are going toget really, really scary and I'm
a little petrified for it.
Somebody asked me to do like a2025 predictions list and I was

(28:29):
like, what happens here?
No one's talking about it rightnow or at least I don't feel
like they are and I'm like mymind.
The amount of anxiety that's inmy body just thinking about
that, where the autorecommendations are just going
to go out and they're going tojust publish out this content
that was written by AI, basedoff of, like whatever the
website said, even if it's like,yeah, small business owners
that don't know how to excludepages those kinds of things are

(28:51):
just kind of what's looming inmy head when it comes to AI in
the industry.
But then also, how do we stayaccountable?
I, yeah, we could probably havea four hour conversation about
this very easily, very easily,very easily.

Related but not directly related.
So I recently did a video formy academy just running through
meta setting up a campaign, andit's been a while since me
personally, I've gone through ameta campaign and I know we're
talking about Google Ads, butthe point is I can't tell you
how hard it was and how muchwork it was to actually opt out
of all of the AI recommendations.

(29:22):
So like automatic sound,automatic music, different
filters I mean it's insane.
But if you think about it, youraverage person, right, they're
not going to know.
They're just like, oh, yeah,you know, click on advanced plus
, click, click, click, clickright, and then it's just going
to go and what it creates is ais a monster, like really.

So yeah, I have that fear, just like you, where
it's just not there yet, butthey're pushing it so much and
like, oh, and it's just not goodfor the average user it's not,
and I just worry about the smallbusiness owner that doesn't
have an agency or a freelanceror someone looking out for them,
or even like the owners thatunfortunately work with those

(30:06):
agencies that don't care enoughto check like those are the ones
that I really, really worryabout, because I'm like, when
we're talking about brand safety, there's a lot of implications
on that side of things.
Who holds the liability?
Like?
I mean Google and Meta both arevery great at absolving
themselves from any kind ofliability, right?
So then at that point you'rekind of sitting there going,
okay, well, now what?

(30:27):
Like what do we do?
And today's ppc chat was aboutlike, do we leave these
platforms?
But then how do we leave theseplatforms, especially if they're
returning for the customer butthey're not ethical?
And then you're just going downall of these other random
rabbit holes and I'm like thisis probably the most complex
this industry has ever gotten.
When I started, we were justkind of trying to argue about

(30:49):
adding close variants.
I remember the Larry Kimarticle that told us about close
variants.
It's like it happened yesterdayand I just sit there and I'm
like that was my main concern 10years ago.
Was is exact match going tostay exact match, and now we
have that answer.
But now I'm sitting herelooking at AI and I'm like, well

(31:10):
, what's the answer at the endof it?
Because it only got worse forus.
So is this going to follow suit, or do we see improvement?
Yeah, I don't know.
I got doomsday.

No, it's true, and I think about about the same
way, especially when there'slike a lot of commentary from
people you know, for a lot ofthe sissas are livelihood, right
.
It's not like that there's aneasy replacement for meta at
Google, right.

So it's kind of like you know what are the
options and it's very easy tostand up and say oh, you know
it's evil, but I always wonderthe people who stand up and say
that if they lost those twoplatforms today, would they be?
Okay, it's hard, it's reallyhard.
But even just adding thecomplexity of being an agency

(31:51):
owner, I don't know how big yourteam is, but I have eight other
people working for me that relyon me to feed their families,
pay their rent, all that stuff,and that's not a responsibility
that I take lightly.
So then naturally, my mind goesinto the pessimistic side of
things, because I'm like, well,how do I prevent this from
happening?
Or how do I best protectourselves?
Yeah, right, because we'vealready gone through pretty
horrible events that thankfullywe've been able to survive.

(32:13):
But, like as an owner who hasconstantly had to go to battle
and war, I don't know how much Ihave left in me as well, right,
so then there's like all ofthese random little plays in the
mix of everything, and then itwas something that I was talking
to Julia about earlier todaywhere I was just like I don't
know what to do anymore.
Like before the outline was alittle bit clearer.

(32:34):
If this happens and we have todo this, if this happens, we
have to do this.
But I'm like now we have not tobring in politics but to bring
in politics right.
We have new leadership comingin into the state.
All of the moves that Meta hasmade over the last several weeks
seems to be very much kissingthe ring type of deal.
I wonder how many other CEOsare going to follow.

(32:56):
I wonder what thoseimplications are going to be.
What happens to TikTok?
Is it going to be bought byElon Musk, like some of the
reports are saying, or are theyactually going to just admit
defeat and just walk out of theStates and essentially Canada,
which frankly, like for worldaffairs, I would prefer at this
point, but, like from anadvertising standpoint, there

(33:19):
are so many DTC brands that relyon TikTok and I just sit there
and I'm like and I can't giveyou my opinion either way,
because both sides of theimplications are just not great.
It's almost like an electionwhere you just have two parties
and neither of the candidatesare great options, so you're
picking the lesser of two evils,which feels like what voting is

(33:40):
these days.
It's basically just turninginto the ad industry.
Where do we put our votes,where do we put our money?
And that's where I just like Idon't know what to do with that
anymore, especially with clientswho don't quite understand
those little tiny intricaciesand maybe they don't care and
that's totally fine.
But like yeah, yeah.

It's a lot Terrified, it's a lot subject.
I have a close friend, a youngguy who's actually on on the
podcast and he runs a tiktokagency.
Like that's what he specializesin and like I'm even scared to
like ask him, like what are yougonna do?
You know, and as much as he'strying to branch out to other
social platforms, but like he'skilling it on tiktok and it's

(34:23):
hard, like you know.
So, yeah, that's why you and Ior other agency owners, like
especially in 2025, we're likelooking at like where are the
holes?
What do we got to do?
And, like you said, we havethat huge responsibility on our
shoulders.
I don't know if everyone agreesto that.
We've seen agencies last yearwho just sell the thing and then
suddenly everyone's out of ajob.
But there are people who docare and, yeah, we've got to

(34:48):
protect ourselves and our people.
So it's definitely complex.

Yeah, it's not an easy one, unfortunately.
I think it's going to bemulti-year before I'm able to
form some kind of answer that'sa little bit more concrete.
So maybe we do this in twoyears and see if I have an
answer for you.

I'm glad to do that.
So, pivoting a little bit overto agency, on LinkedIn, you
recently shared a story aboutkeeping up appearances when
going through tough times.
Can you share your strategy onfinding a balance between
authenticity and appearances andI'm not trying to imply that
you aren't authentic, but it'shard, right, we go through tough

(35:26):
times and just to let it allout, be like we're suffering
here.
It's hard, it's a balance.
So how did you deal with that,or how do you feel like one can
deal with that?

So I'm going to take us back about two and a
half years ago.
So June 2022 was probably themost significant month in my
business and probably a datethat I'm never going to forget,
which is just unfortunate.
Our business manager on Metagot hacked.
It spent 50 million or not 50million, sorry, $50,000.
Are you serious Dollars?

(35:58):
Yeah, it was bad.
I was across, like I want to say, about seven accounts or
something like that over thetimeframe, and this is when Meta
had just announced that theyhad basically cut down their
customer service.
So it used to be great and thenit was just not.
So I basically got to watchthese hackers for a whole week
make changes in the account,literally in real time.
I was literally watching themdo this and I couldn't do
anything.
And I'm sitting there in chatwith them going.
I'm watching them.

(36:20):
They're doing this.
I still have access to that.
Just look at the timeframe.
When was this person added?
They shouldn't have been.
Why are they spending thismoney and why is it in a
different language than what theaccount was doing beforehand?
Like there's really easy safetychecks that Meta could do to
prevent this nonsense fromhappening.
They just chose not to.
But going back to the question,because I'm going to go off on

(36:41):
another tangent if I don't sothen that basically ended up
happening, and I think that wasthe first moment where I
actually really realized that Ican't bottle it in anymore.
I used to keep it because, like, obviously, social media is the
place where you take yourhighlight reel, right, you go
and you sit there and you'relike look at this vacation.
I went on, look at my husband,look at my boyfriend, look at
this bag that I have all thesewonderful things.

(37:01):
Let me curate it perfectly.
So you think my life is justlike wonderful.
And I fell into the same thingwhere I was like, well, if
nobody else is talking abouttheir problems, they must not be
having them.
That's the natural assumptionthat you make.
And then, eventually, when Istarted talking about June 2022
and everyone started realizinghow truly horrible it was for me
, that's when a lot of peoplewere like, oh, I had this really

(37:23):
hard time, or I had this reallyhard time, or I did this and
this didn't work out for me.
And I think that's when Irealized that, like, I think I
had surpassed being somebodythat people were just randomly
following to somebody that theywere actually actively following
.
And that was a really weird onefor me, because I never set out
like at the start of this, yousaid that I'm one of the most

(37:43):
influential in the like.
I never.
That was never my goal.
I just never like it's weird tohear that, like it's really
strange to hear that.
But then I think that's when Istarted realizing that there was
some value in the content thatI was actually creating outside
of PPC.
So I started adding little bitsand pieces of like okay, well,
this is where I'm sitting at,mental health wise, this is
where I'm sitting at here.

(38:03):
And that also really helped mefigure out how to communicate
with my team and I think my teamis probably where it really
started, where I just sat thereand I was like I don't want to
do anything today, I want to goback to bed and I want to cry.
That's all I want to do.
And everybody be like go ahead,do it.
And then I would do it the samenext week and I would do it
again and again and again.

(38:24):
And then I eventually turnedinto, kept on going and I was
like okay, so this progressionthat they're watching me go
through was really helpful forthem because I noticed that they
started opening up more to me.
So I was like, if I take thisonline, what happens?
So then that was kind of justlike the thought process of like
okay, maybe I should be talkingabout how horrible things are
for me, not in the sense ofwanting sympathy, but really
giving everyone a very balancedview of what it really takes to

(38:48):
run a business and an agency andwhat it feels like to be a solo
owner versus someone who has apartnership or multiple partners
It's very isolating and it'sreally like I mean, if we talked
very like about 2022, like in avery like detailed manner,
guaranteed I'd probably stillcry about it.
Like I can still kind of feelmy emotion.

(39:09):
It's just that I'm able to kindof keep this one back this time
, but it was just such ahorrible time and I think that
was the tipping point for me interms of like okay, my content
needs to change.
Everybody needs to see howhorrible this is.
So that way, if they choose tostill make that same decision,
they're making one that's veryeducated.

(39:29):
So now, when people come to meand they're like, hey, amit, I
want to start my own agency whatyou're probably expecting me to
say is like oh, I love runningmy agency, all of this stuff.
The first thing that comes outof my mouth is like this is the
worst thing on the planetsometimes.
And they'll just sit there andthey're like, what did you?
And I'm like no, trust me.

(39:51):
Like some days you literallyare like, why did I do this?
To myself, like it's just,that's just what happens, but
then you have the same thing ina job.
It's just that all of thatwaits on you now, right?
So yeah, for me it's very much aconcerted effort of being like
okay, I need to make sure thatas I talk about all of these
wonderful things that arehappening in my life, I need to
make sure that people understandthat sometimes it's not always
like this Just because I'm in aphase of my life where it's just
overly abundant right now andit's just so wonderful.

(40:13):
I did go through seven years ofcomplete trash beforehand.
There needs to be that side ofit and, just like what we were
saying earlier today, you canonly enjoy the good if you've
had some bad, and I think that'sjust kind of where I really
want to echo that to everybodywhere running a business is just
like life.
It's going to ebb and flow.
Sometimes you're superpassionate and sometimes you're
not.
Sometimes you really love itand sometimes you actually kind

(40:34):
of want to get out, and I had atwo-year period where I thought
about that every single day.
Do I want to continue this ornot?
I don't know if this is goingto sound weird, but I've always,
like, had something in my like.
I've always said that I'm builtdifferently, and I don't mean
it in like an elitist way.

I just mean, like something about me just doesn't
feel like this, is it, if thatmakes sense?
No, I think it's a naturalspark to be like okay, like I've
got this purpose.
I got this mission.
I don't know if I've filled ityet and I need to still keep
searching for it.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
I think in our life I think wehave micro missions, but then we
also have the bigger mission.
Sometimes we don't know whatthat was until we're 120 years
old.
Right, but that's how we got it.

Hopefully we figure that out a little bit
sooner than that.

Exactly, but I'm a big believer.
We're here for a purpose andtherefore there is it's very
true that there's going to besomething inside of you pushing
you in a certain direction, andmore often than not, you need to
listen to yourself and you'llknow whether you're in the right
spot or not.
So I think that's fair.
The only thing I was thinking,also while you were talking was
yeah, I know exactly what you'resaying.

(41:40):
Yes, I also have those really,really hard days For me.
I've got a beard, so I can lookat my videos from 2020 and 2024
and see how gray I've gotten.
So I've got more like ameasurement, like oh man, that
must have been a bad year,because, oh sheesh, but I'm just
joking.
But you're right, there'sdefinitely those hard days and I
think that's why it's helpfulto have people to talk with

(42:02):
right, because if we just wereon our own, it'd be very hard
and I think we'd give up.
But having you know loved onesor its mentors, or you know
certain individuals of thecompany who may not be an owner,
but at least it's someone youfeel comfortable sharing with,
we need people right.
Anyone who's on their own, itjust doesn't work.

It doesn't, and especially for sounding boards
Like I love using people justto talk to them and when I say
using people I don't mean likeusing them, but like I've loved
that conversation becausesometimes it might spark
something in them or it mightspark something in me.
For me, my favorite thing inthe entire world is going
outside where I don't knowanybody and just having random

(42:40):
conversations, and my wholethesis behind that is just like
if I could put a smile onsomeone's face for two seconds,
I've done my job Like I've donemy good deed.
I can continue walking, becauseI know that if I've made you
laugh, I was laughing too.
You know what I mean.
So then I just take that and Ijust sit there and I'm like,
okay, I might be feeling really,really not great about this at

(43:01):
work, but I can make myself feelbetter somewhere else.
And I think it's just thatbalance that a lot of people
just seem to think that likebusiness is all in all the time,
and again two years ago taughtme that that's not it.
You can't be working yourbusiness 24-7 and still yield
the results.
I tried.
It didn't work.
Like it took me 11 months andtwo days to get us back to
remotely close to where we werewhen we got hit.

(43:22):
That was a year, like literallythat was just a year of me just
going hyper time because I hadno choice it was my reputation
or I quit and I was not going toquit.
So then for me it was just oneof those options.
But then I think, showingeverybody that like this is what
it takes, that you'reconstantly pounding the pavement
for 11 months and two days Isthis worth it for you?

(43:43):
Is this something that youthink you'd be able to go out,
go to sleep every single night,knowing that yes, I do, I
support the decision that I madeand I'm very happy with the
decision I made?
Or would you sit there and belike I don't think I should have
done that, and I think thatkind of gave a lot of people
some insight into whether or notthey wanted to push further
than freelancing or if they evenwanted to go into freelancing,
and I hate that I had to gothrough that for them to kind of

(44:05):
start thinking about it.
But I also hate that I wentthrough that to even realize
that I needed to talk about mymental health and talk about
these moments where I didn'tmaybe act exactly the way that I
wanted to just to keep upappearances was just really
eye-opening for me.
So now it's more or less of likeI sit there and I go is this
performative or is this real?
And that's usually like thequestion that I go back and

(44:26):
forth with all the time and thatkind of helps me maintain that
nice little level, because someof it is performative.
I'm not going to lie here,right, like some of it, I just
want to make myself feel good,so I'm going to do it.
That's just the long and shortof it, you're human.
But most, yeah, exactly, butmost of the content that I try
to put out, I just is this metrying to like get sympathy, and

(44:48):
then if it's the latter, thenmore often than not I accept
content and then I just continuegoing.

Love it.
I think it's an amazingbarometer.
So before we wrap up, I want toget into our top three before
we have the call.
Sounds like you have lots ofcool interests, so we're going
to I'm going to say a categoryand tell me what you think of or
what you enjoy right nowspecifically.
So number one books.

Oh my gosh, I just love turning my brain off
and just reading and learningsomething new.
I think that's just really cool.
So the way that I do this isaudio book with the physical
book.
Really, I feel like mycomprehension is significantly
higher.

I love that.
I had never even thought aboutthat.

I heard it in.
I was, I think, listening tothe Alex Hermosi book I can't
remember which one it was, butone of them sometime in 2023.
And he had made that mentionwhere he's like I do audio book
with the real book and I waslike I wonder because I know
that my mind wanders right Likeagain, analyst, I'm thinking
2050, possibly a milliondifferent things at one moment.
So I was like how do I combatthat?
Like, how, analyst, I'mthinking 2050, possibly a
million different things at onemoment.
So I was like how do I combatthat?
Like, how do I keep focused?

(45:53):
And for me it was like okay,even if my mind starts to wander
, at least I'm hearing it, likeI'll still pick it up in some
way, and that's been really,really cool.
I've really, really loved it.
I recently finished my last bookI think it was the Revenge of
the Tipping Point by MalcolmGladwell, and I enjoyed that
read.
I totally understandeverybody's criticism towards it
.
It's not as in-depth, but Ikind of like the eagle view of

(46:15):
all of it.
I think that's kind ofinteresting just to sit there
and be like, oh, so we saw thatcoming and then we didn't do
anything.
So that's been.
Yeah, I think that's reallyjust.
The cool part for me is justbeing able to figure out what
works for me, which is basicallyreading twice at one point,
which might be something coolfor you.

I know I can't tell you how I'm excited about
that idea, because we'll talkabout this another time, but
yeah, I need it.
That's great.
Yeah, totally fair.
All right, football.

What I'm excited about, the Detroit Lions.
What I'm not excited about isthe Dallas Cowboys.
But they are saying that DeionSanders might become our coach.
I wouldn't hate that.
I wouldn't hate that.
Did I like McCarthy in thatposition?
No, not at all.
I called him to be gone afterthat Packers game last year.
What the F was that?

(47:02):
I'm still mad about that game,so I'm going to stop myself.
Now I'm really mad about thatgame.
That game was pathetic, thatgame.
So I'm going to stop myself.
Now I'm really mad about thatgame.
That game was pathetic.
That game was pathetic.
But yeah, he should have beengone last year.
He should have been gone lastyear.

Yeah, if Dion comes along, I think it's going
to change everything, so I'mexcited for that opportunity as
well.

I'm hoping that he'll have the Dan Campbell
effect on them.
I think I really love howmilitary precision the Lions
kind of feel like even you'rewatching them like do their
lineups like they're on point,like every single person, same
beat, same.
I love it, like absolutely Ijust love it.
And I was like if Deion Sanderscould bring something like that

(47:43):
to the Cowboys, I would be justso happy, I would be so happy.

Last category, music.

Oh gosh, I listen to everything.

But like favorite genre, do you have like a
favorite?

I would say like rock is kind of where my heart
goes to.
So think of like the Alexis onFires, billy Talent Screamo in
the back.
There needs to be a Screamosinger there.
I love that.
I think I'm naturally justsomeone who feels like my
emotions are pretty intense,just like that's just the long

(48:18):
and short of it, and like thatkind of music, just like it just
feels so good in my core whereI can just scream into it and
just feel like I'm releasingeverything, good or bad, and
it's just like absolutelyamazing.
But Alexis on Fire is like theband that just feel like I'm
releasing everything, good orbad, and it's just absolutely
amazing.
But Alexis on Fire is the bandthat has my heart.
I don't think I get starstruckoutside of a few PPC people very
often, but if Alexis on Fireended up anywhere remotely close

(48:41):
to me I would pass out, nodoubt.

Well, Amit, this was an awesome conversation.
I seriously feel like you're asister from another mother.

I love that.

Thank you so much for coming here and it's so
cool how we've met recently andyeah, so this is just really
really great.
So thanks for being a guest onthe Digital Marketing Mentor and
thank you, listeners, fortuning into the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for listening to the Digital
Marketing Mentor podcast.
Be sure to check us out online.

(49:24):
Thank you.

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