April 2, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Danny sits down with Susan Yen, a digital marketing expert with over seven years of experience in Pay-per-Click (PPC).
Together, they discuss Susan’s journey from her communications background to a career in paid search, her views on mentorship, and how diversity plays a crucial role in marketing.
Susan talks about her experiences working in agency and in-house settings, the difficulties small businesses have with PPC, and how artificial intelligence is changing the sector.
Episode Highlights:
- Susan shares her journey from struggling with traditional schooling to discovering her passion for marketing, detailing pivotal moments that led her to specialize in PPC.
- She highlights the importance of mentorship, crediting Navah Hopkins and Mark Irvine for encouraging her to speak at conferences and step out of her comfort zone.
- Susan discusses the common challenges local businesses face with PPC, stressing the importance of investing in digital marketing and understanding its potential for business growth.
- With a focus on diversity, Susan explains how companies can genuinely support diverse voices, going beyond tokenism to create meaningful change.
- As AI evolves in PPC, Susan emphasizes the need to balance technological tools with human creativity to maintain authenticity in marketing.
Episode Links:
🔗 Instagram: @theyengirl
🔗 LinkedIn: /in/susanyen
🔗 LinkedIn: SearchLab Digital
Follow The Digital Marketing Mentor:
- Website and Blog: thedmmentor.com
- Instagram: @thedmmentor
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- YouTube: @thedmmentor
Interested in Digital Marketing Services, Careers, or Courses? Check out more from the TDMM Family:
- Optidge.com - Full Service Digital Marketing Agency specializing in SEO, PPC, Paid Social, and Lead Generation efforts for established B2C and B2B businesses and organizations.
- ODEOacademy.com - Digital Marketing online education and course platform. ODEO gives you solid digital marketing knowledge to launch/boost your career or understand your business’s digital marketing strategy.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Gavin (00:05):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, and, together with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
(00:36):
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Now get ready to get human.
Susan is a passionate digitalmarketing expert with over seven
years of experience in bothagency and in-house environments
.
She specializes in craftingimpactful PPC campaigns that not
only drive customer growth andincrease sales, but also
maximizing ROI while minimizingbudget and waste.
As an agency leader andemerging speaker, she's
(00:59):
dedicated to exploringinnovative strategies and tools
to help businesses thrive, whilealso advocating for diversity
and personal growth in thefast-paced world of digital
marketing.
Today, we're going to betalking about personal growth,
mentorship, diversity and thefuture of marketing and PPC.
How are you doing, susan?
Susan Yen (01:14):
I'm good.
Thanks for having me, Danny.
This is awesome.
Danny Gavin (01:18):
Yeah, and we hung out a couple months ago in San
Diego, so that's when I firstgot to meet you and you're
really cool.
Susan Yen (01:26):
So it's so nice to have you on the podcast.
Yeah, time goes by reallyreally fast, but it was such an
incredible just conference andmeeting just talented experts
and just industry leaders aswell.
So it's really nice to get tomeet you, obviously.
So it's always great to connect.
Danny Gavin (01:39):
So, susan, where did you go to school and what
did you study?
Susan Yen (01:41):
I went to the University of New Hampshire
studying communications, so Iwas in a COLA program and then I
did marketing as a minor.
Danny Gavin (01:51):
Are there any things that happened inside the
classroom or outside theclassroom?
When you look back at thatexperience, that kind of paved
the way for you today.
Susan Yen (02:01):
I've never been the school.
I hated school.
To be completely honest, Ithink I always struggled with
just learning in general andsitting in a classroom.
So having people outside ofjust the classroom and having,
you know, my professors orteachers just provide a space
for me to go afterwards to beable to, because sitting in
(02:24):
class it's a lot of people youcan't really ask those personal
questions.
You don't want to look stupidno one, you will never look
stupid, but at that age, at thatpoint in your life, you don't
want to be that person.
So I had this amazing professor,professor michael jackson, who
I was always able to go to forguardians, and then our, you
know, guidance professors, um,or just also we had
organizations that you couldjoin.
So we had, you know, blackstudent union, where you know,
guidance professors, or justalso we had organizations that
(02:45):
you could join.
So we had, you know, blackStudent Union, where, you know,
as, in a place where it's NewHampshire, I think we try to be
diverse and I think UNH does areally good job of trying to
push diversity.
But you're in New Hampshire,there's only so much you can do
there.
But we did have organizations.
You know our Asian Coalition,our diversity, our LGBTQ
(03:08):
organizations, just being ableto provide those spaces for
people to be able to connect andtalk about what's going on,
because I mean it's being incollege, that's your first time
making these decisions thatcould be very impactful later on
in your life and you need aspace, a safe place to talk to
people about it and to share,you know, kind of connect and
(03:29):
say, hey look, I'm not the onlyone going through it.
So it's not only nice to haveyou know professors are able to
have those office hours and giveyou space for that, but also
the school to provide a spacewhere people like you and other
students like you can alsoconnect, because it's not just
not just about education, it'salso about just personal growth.
That also happens.
I'm in UNH.
Just an incredible job of beingable to provide the spaces for
(03:51):
for you to grow individually,but also as a student and how
did you choose that university?
Danny Gavin (03:56):
did you grow up like around the corner or did
you actually say, hey, I'm goingto New Hampshire?
Susan Yen (03:59):
I don't even think I thought about college until I
was like a junior in high school.
I wasn't really sure what Iwanted to do and I give props to
any high school that's headingoff to college that is very
determined, knows what they wantto do.
I don't think I knew what Iwanted to do until I graduated
college so I chose UNH.
(04:20):
Honestly, I love my mom and sheceases.
I love you and I'm sorry.
I needed to branch out and be onmy own and be able to make my
own decisions and kind of pushmyself a lot more, because I've
always been I think one of mycoaches in high school was I
always said that Susan does, shecan always do better, but she
doesn't push herself and becauseI always have people there to
(04:42):
always kind of help me out, notlike as a crutch, but just being
able to give that space tomyself and I think just leaving
the house is what I want to do.
But I didn't want to go so faraway that if something were to
happen I couldn't come back home.
And UNH was that kind ofperfect middle ground and it's
just the community there is sogreat and they have such an
inviting network.
(05:03):
So as soon as I got on campus Ijust felt honestly at home, so
that's mainly kind of why Ichose that school.
But yeah, it's just a greatschool and just a space and the
ability to grow and thrive.
Danny Gavin (05:15):
So did you fall in love with marketing at school,
or was it more later on down thepath when that happened?
Susan Yen (05:21):
I remember sitting down my senior year of high
school and my guidance counselor, you know, mentioned that oh,
you should do communications,and I was like I don't even know
what that is.
Instead, I decided to go tobusiness right when I went to
college.
So I did Whittemore School ofBusiness Now it's Peter T Paul.
I hated the business portion ofeverything.
But when you take thesebusiness classes, they do have
(05:43):
the marketing portions of it.
And marketing is not just youknow one thing, it's a bunch of
different things that you canstudy.
And because I didn't know whatI wanted to do, I didn't know
where I wanted to go.
The world is just such a bigplace and everyone's all kind of
pushing you to go one way orthe other and I didn't know.
You know everyone's telling youwhen you graduate you know
school you're going to have lotsof debt, make sure you can have
(06:05):
a job.
So there's just differentmindsets with economics or all
that business stuff that I waslike that is not me.
I need to be able to explore mycreative side but then also be
able to have that degree so Ican graduate and choose.
So I have, you know, it's notjust economics, because when you
do economics, it kind of putsyou in that in this box.
(06:27):
And marketing was like you cando tv, you can do print, you can
do computers, you can go, youcan work for any company,
doesn't matter what um industryyou're in.
That's what made me fall inlove with marketing.
I actually thought I was goingto be in tv, um doing all that
broadcasting and behind thecameras and stuff, and, and that
was just a lot of work.
But I think that's why I chosemarketing.
I fell in love with marketingbecause it's so diverse and it's
(06:49):
so ever-changing that I likedthat flow, that consistency,
like no day is ever going to bethe same in marketing, which it
won't.
Well, for me anyways.
Danny Gavin (06:59):
No, I agree, and either people really like that
or some people don't.
Susan Yen (07:02):
But if you do, then marketing is a really good
choice, so Susan how would youdefine a mentor?
I would define a mentor assomeone that definitely has
experience, regardless of ifit's in the area in which you're
mentoring that person to be.
But I think a mentor is aperson that holds space and is
able to just listen, but thenalso give the feedback where
(07:24):
feedback is needed, because wealready have enough people,
enough in the world trying totell us where to go, who to be,
what to do and all this stuffthat I think.
Just being able to hold spacefor those individuals and be
able to kind of steer them inthe direction where they want to
go, but also sometimes peopledon't know where they want to go
but having them be able to getor be able to talk about because
(07:48):
sometimes I'll do that, I'lltalk out loud to myself
sometimes or I'll call you know,my sister or something, and
I'll just talk out and then I'llcome to my own realization of
my own solutions.
And I think mentors are meant tocreate space.
We're not here to push peopleto say, hey, this is what's
right and what's wrong.
It's a hey, I'm here if youneed guidance, I'm here if you
need the references.
(08:08):
I can connect you to the rightpeople if need be.
If you want to do this thing,I'm going to help you, guide you
or provide the right tools andequipments to do what you need
to do, or that support.
Actually, I think that's whatmentors are supposed to be.
They're supposed to be asupport system and a foundation
to hey, if you do try that outand it doesn't work out, let's
sit back down, let's talk aboutit and we'll figure it out
(08:28):
together.
Danny Gavin (08:29):
So let's talk about some of your most influential
colleagues, who have alsomentored you, namely Nava
Hopkins and Mark Irvine.
Susan Yen (08:36):
Yes, we worked together for a really long time.
So I started working at acompany I think they got bought
by Gannet, I believe it wascalled WordStream and I didn't
really quite know, understandpaid search.
So I started off because youdidn't learn Google Ads when I
was in school, that's just.
I don't think it really existed, it wasn't really there, no one
(08:58):
was really getting into it.
So I kind of worked as amarketing person, which meant
you did everything.
So when I realized I wanted togo into that Google paid search
route and understand it, justworking at a company like
Workstream, there's just so muchthat you could do.
Mark and Nava just knew I justlooked at them like you know,
(09:20):
when you know, like they justknow, they're just otherworldly.
Like they just know everythingand you can never be anywhere in
years.
They any questions I ever had,they had the answers to them.
And if they didn't have theanswers to them, they would come
back and just say, hey, look, I, I it's okay to not know
something, and if you don't knowsomething then it's okay to
admit it.
And then just say, hey, look,I'll go back.
And it now becomes a learninglesson more than anything and
(09:40):
just that ability to just beable to say, hey look, um, if,
if this is what you want to do,this is what you're good at,
let's go ahead and work towardsthat.
I remember one day I worked withour software engineers.
So I sat downstairs with Navacause we're both we I trained
and consult the clients on oursoftware and she just did
conferences and all that stuff.
And I remember her telling methat I should be doing
(10:02):
conferences and I rememberlooking at her like she was
crazy.
So I was like that is that's alot, that's a you thing.
You do that it's.
It's just sounded so justoutside of my spectrum and
somewhere where I was down theline maybe in 10 years or
something I'll get there but shejust had she saw something in
me that I didn't necessarily seeat that time and now you know
(10:25):
she came back and she's just gotme connected to all these
amazing people.
With Mark I actually at onepoint I decided that I didn't
want to do paid search anymore.
I worked for a really smallstartup and that didn't work out
.
So I was like you know what,maybe I need to take a step back
and reevaluate what it is thatI really want to do and I did
like paid search.
It was just like trying to findthe right company, the right
(10:46):
fit.
And I remember getting amessage from Mark actually from
Matt and then Mark and you knowhe was like, hey, we have a
position that's open.
Do you want to come work?
And I was like I don't know.
He's like, well, you're reallygood at this and I think that
you could, you know, createsomething great here.
So I think, like with the two ofthem, they just they see
(11:08):
something and they do this with,I think, everyone around them
and especially with Mark is theysee something within
individuals and they'll try tokind of motivate you and push
you to do that and say, like Isee something in you that you
might not see.
If you don't want to do that,that's okay.
See, if you don't want to dothat, that's okay, that's fine,
but just believe in thepotential that you have.
Don't do too much of thatunnecessary work.
If this is a path that youreally like, Push yourself to do
(11:29):
the best and be the best thatyou can be.
And that's kind of there whatthey've done and showed me.
Danny Gavin (11:33):
Wow.
So I had no clue that youworked at WordStream with them
and now this adds so much more.
I know who I want to bring onmy team, I know which A player I
want to bring.
That's a huge compliment andit's awesome that, yeah, that
(11:54):
you just had that.
You had that relationship withsomeone like that, someone who
you like, really looked up toand then able to connect with
them, help you grow and thenalso see your potential.
Susan Yen (12:09):
And then even say, hey, I want to bring her on my
team here as well.
So cool, yeah.
Yeah, it's definitely unique.
I think it gives props to whohe is as a person as well, with
how he created the team here atSearch.
Danny Gavin (12:16):
Lab.
So obviously Nava said hey,susan, you really should go into
conferences.
So how long did it actuallytake?
I don't know when.
When was your first conferencethat you spoke at?
Susan Yen (12:27):
Ah, three months ago.
Danny Gavin (12:29):
Right.
So I, I, I didn't want to, Ididn't want to assume it, but
wow.
So it so.
It took a couple of years, huh.
Susan Yen (12:37):
I like, yeah, I think even when I thought about it,
it was more of a hey, causeunfortunately we did lose, um
unexpected lose, uh, mark, andit just left such a gaping hole
in our company, cause he justdoes so much, just not like
within our company, but just injust the marketing, I think paid
search industry in general andespecially with our company.
(12:59):
You know, we're running aroundtrying to figure out, okay, what
he did, everything, everything.
How do we kind of split up thestuff?
Um, and I remember telling himthat I really I love traveling.
And he's like well, if you lovetraveling, you like conferences
, how do you feel about?
And I was like, well, let'sjust we're gonna just push that
aside.
So it's kind of, um, you know,when you're sitting in those
(13:20):
moments, um, and kind of gothrough conversations and and
that was one thing I remembertalking about and I was like you
know what this is, I need toget out of my, my comfort zone.
And I remember, yeah, namareached out and she was like
they're looking for speakers forthis event and the whole time I
was like, even honestly,throughout the whole entire
process until that day.
So I think my first speakingagent was SMS Max in Oregon and
(13:45):
that whole from November, fromthe time that I found out that I
was speaking to the time I wasdone speaking.
I was scared it was just awhole different, but it did take
out.
It took a bit, quite a bit.
It took some time, for sure.
Danny Gavin (14:00):
I know how amazing Mark was and I think in some
ways he kind of left you a giftright.
It's like, hey, you know I'vegot to go, but I need someone to
fill my footsteps.
You know footsteps in my place.
So it's cool that he left thatgift for you and that you
actually jumped on it.
So obviously I heard you speak.
You're wonderful and amazingand hopefully it's going to be
the start to a whole new chapterfor you, which you've already
(14:20):
started.
But to continue and keepgrowing, it's so cool.
Susan Yen (14:24):
Yeah, I got to make them proud, both of them proud,
so that's my goal.
Danny Gavin (14:28):
So let's talk about now how you kind of mentor
others.
You put down that you mentoryour sisters, samantha and Seth,
so we'd love to know, yeah, howdoes that mentoring
relationship work?
Susan Yen (14:37):
It's a little bit different.
I mean, I have like fouryounger sisters, so I've always
felt more like a mentor than andthen.
So we all kind of came here andI think it's always doing the
things or making the decisionsthat you would look back and be
proud.
There are going to be somedecisions that you're going to
(14:58):
make that you're not so proud of, but I think being able to talk
to my siblings especiallybecause there's again there's
five of us, so there's differentstages that each of them have
kind of gone through and I thinkwhat our conversations are
either it's you know, I've gonethrough these different things
and there's you're not going tolearn everything from school,
which is frustrating.
It is what it is sometimes lifeexperiences.
(15:19):
So it's always great to be ableto sit down and talk to them.
And you know, college decisionswas a big one.
How do I apply for these things?
My guidance counselor sayingthese.
But these people are sayingthat, like what should I do?
Um, taxes, okay, now it's timeto get a job.
Or like, what do?
How do I have these interviews?
What does my resume look like?
What do I want to do,especially with it?
(15:40):
When it comes to family members,it's easy to want to be
protective and to kind of createa bubble around them and just
say, yeah, that sounds like agood idea, but maybe not, but
it's.
It's usually like, hey, I'mgoing to be here.
Um, if, if that's what youreally want to do, I'm here and
as a support system and I am acall away if you need to.
Happy to look at anything youneed me to look at, happy to
(16:02):
look at any negotiations thatyou might need to do in regards
to, like, your salary oranything like that.
But never trying, never tryingto push them too much one
direction or the other, becauseI hated that.
I'm the type of person if youpush me too hard on something, I
probably will go the otherdirection.
So just doing that for, youknow, my siblings has always
been something that I'mpassionate about, and I think
(16:23):
they also push me to just be abetter person in my career and
then just as an individual.
And then this is actually myfirst time being a manager,
which I never thought.
I I don't, I don't know, Inever thought of myself as as a
manager and as that mentor forthem, cause I know, when it
comes to work is, you know,there's this gray area that
sometimes happens with hey, I'myour manager, this is your job.
(16:45):
But then also, how do I help myteam, make sure I'm listening
to what they want to do andwhere they see their career,
because I think, as as managers,I think managers I call
managers mentors as as well,because I think that that's one
in the same and it should be inthat job description.
So I love being able to kind ofsee my team grow from hey, what
(17:06):
do you know?
What are some things I can doto help you out, or do we need
to?
What are some tools I canprovide you?
Where do you see yourself in?
A little bit, I want likesometimes this isn't going to be
, you know, the last companythat that person's going to work
, and we can't expect that fromfrom people.
It's a.
This industry is very fastmoving and people's lives change
and they go in all differentdirections, and if I can help
(17:28):
provide that the tools and theresources that they need, then
i'm'm happy to do that.
I mean, I have a team memberright now that, you know, wants
to be a manager one day and hewants to take the necessary
steps to get there.
So it's just again, it's justit's providing that space, space
for them to be able to not onlyopen that space so that they
feel comfortable telling me,because I think that also
(17:50):
sometimes you're like, hey,where do you want to go?
And they're like, well, wholedifferent industry.
So just that honesty and thatfeedback loop that ends up
happening, because then theyalso help me become again just a
better leader in industry aswell.
So I think we've workedtogether in terms of just
creating that space for oneanother and teaching each other
all that stuff.
Danny Gavin (18:11):
And in that specific case, did you ask them
hey, I think like you would be agood manager, or was more like
them coming to you saying, hey,what do I need to do in order to
get there?
Susan Yen (18:18):
I started with more asking them what they wanted to
do.
Where do they see themselves?
Because sometimes when we asmentors speak first, that kind
of might take away from thatlistening that I think a lot of
people don't necessarily do.
So I always like to ask hey, Ithink I do this, you know, with
my clients you had any questionsconcerns.
(18:39):
There's something that you willwant to bring up first so that
we can address that.
And if I need to cater myconversations and I can cater my
tone a little bit differentlyso for them to kind of come up
to me and say, hey, look, thisis where I want to go, because
it's not about me.
If I see them being a manager,then great.
If they're like I'm not reallyactually sure, okay.
Then I'll say, hey, look well,from outside person, looking in,
(19:00):
I think you'd be great for thisrole.
But if they know where theywant to go, then I don't really
see the sense of me bringingthis up.
But I will, if they are willingto.
I'll say, hey, like, if youwant to hear me out, I think
that this role is, I think thisis a good direction.
But I also have you consideredbeing a manager or being a team
lead, then I would throw that inthere, but I think it all
(19:22):
starts with listening to themfirst.
Danny Gavin (19:22):
So, outside of the things that we already discussed
, can you share a pivotal momentin your career that
significantly contributed toyour personal growth in digital
marketing?
Susan Yen (19:36):
I think I thrived myself on always just being
super, super driven, superindependent and always being a
perfectionist at all times,which I that's just mad.
It's kind of messed up whereyou just you just can't, can't
do that all the time Cause then,when things don't work out the
way that you planned, it sticksand does take a toll on like
your own mental state a littlebit.
So I actually worked for acompany who were like a startup
(19:57):
for maybe six months andunfortunately I got let go and
that cause again, being thatperfectionist and being that
goal setter where you knowanything that I do is very
purposeful.
So for for that to happen, itwas just kind of a oh, oh, no,
okay, what's going on, what do Ineed to do?
Like this is not good and I'msad.
It just made me maybe like, oh,I'm so bad at this job, I'm
(20:18):
terrible, and that's kind ofwhere my mentality went from.
I think we go through the phasesof grief, anger, sadness, and
then you know, okay, I need tolike figure this out.
So I think that's when I took astep back and thought maybe
this is not something I'm goodat and maybe this is just a
(20:40):
career that isn't best fit forme at all.
It made me doubt myself in myexpertise and where I was going
in terms of growth wise, and soI think, going through that, I
think I needed to do that and Ineeded to cause.
I've never lost a job in mywhole entire life.
People do, and it happens to alot of people.
So to me I was like, oh no, I'msuch a failure.
This is just not great.
So I think I needed to do it andI think it definitely coming
(21:00):
out of it on the other side andthat's kind of where Mark came
in it was like you're good atthis job, that company and you
guys just may not have been thebest for each other, but I think
that also I took their feedbackas well with my performance,
and I think that also pushed meto just learn more and get a
little bit more information.
And so I got, you know, Istudied a lot more and got into
my resources.
(21:20):
So I was like now I'm going tocome back and be the best I
could be.
So it's definitely.
I think the athletic,competitive side of me
definitely came out, where I waslike okay, if I'm not, if you
guys don't think I'm good atthis, then I'm going to be the
best.
So I think that that pusheswhat I needed.
Definitely was not a goodfeeling at the time, but I think
it helped me kind of do amental check in regards to just
my profession, my knowledge baseand what I really want to do
(21:44):
and the expertise that I neededto add on to my resume per se.
Danny Gavin (21:49):
Yeah, I'm a big believer that things happen for
a reason and things really dohappen for the best.
And I know that's hard, becauseobviously there are hard things
that happen in our life.
So it's difficult, right, I'mnot saying it's an easy thing,
but this thing that I always sayis, like we ask God to bless us
, that we should see the goodright.
So it's awesome that you canlike step back now, right, thank
(22:11):
God, you're very successful.
But to look back and say, hey,yeah, that was really crummy,
but you know what, because ofthat, look how much I grew and
my perspective switched, that'sawesome.
It's awesome that you're ableto look back at that.
Another interesting thing, justbecause I was at a conference a
week ago.
It was a bunch of agency ownersand it was called 2Y3X and it's
based on the book Scale atSpeed.
(22:33):
It speaks about the concept ofgetting rid of C players, and I
know I'm talking from the agencyowner perspective, so it's a
little bit different.
But I thought the idea that acompany, an organization, has a
certain core values system andsome people in your company
aren't necessarily going to havethe same values.
Now, that doesn't mean thatthey're bad people or anything,
(22:54):
but sometimes they're just not amatch and really, in order for
them to find the best place,it's about how can they find an
organization where their corevalues and the organization's
core values match.
So I think, when you look at itthat way, it makes it a little
bit easier to be like you knowwhere they.
But I'm not excusing it, I'mjust saying that I think we all
have to, like, look at ourselvesand be like okay, what's
(23:16):
important to me?
What are those things that aregoing to make a difference and
to make sure that where you'reworking, you're in line with
that, and if it's not, that'sokay.
Right, you're not always goingto be a perfect match, but then
there is going to be a placesomewhere out there for you.
I know I learned that conceptrecently and it's kind of like
what we're talking about, so Ijust wanted to bring it up.
Susan Yen (23:34):
I think it's.
I think the experience inaddition to that is is that
cause I always tell my, mysisters or any of my friends,
when it comes to took thebusiness classes and like
interviews and all that stuff.
So I always say, hey, if you'redoing, if you're looking for a
company or you're doinginterviews, is, I think,
thinking about it as in this isan interview for two people,
(23:54):
like it's not just them lookingfor you, it's you also looking
for them.
Because if you think about itas a one-sided, like okay, do I
fit in their mold, and you keepit at that, later on, six months
from now, a year from now,you're like, oh, this isn't
really my environment, I want tobe in, I want to leave.
It's because that basis of Ithink, when they say, hey, do
(24:16):
you have any questions, I thinkthat's the perfect time to say,
okay, now I'm going to interviewyou guys and see if you guys
fit with how I want to live mylife and where I see myself and
who I am as a person.
I mean, if it doesn't match up,sometimes that's just as you
mentioned, mentioned, not thebest.
I always tell people that it'san interview is our and jobs are
.
It's a two-sided relationship.
Danny Gavin (24:36):
It's it's definitely give and take out,
and I think that's also likesuper important for sure yeah,
and I use that concept also justwith agency relationships, also
right, with our clients, thesame deal, oh yeah.
So, talking about that, becauseyou've been lucky to have
experienced both in-house aswell as an agency, can you just
(24:56):
compare a little bit thechallenges or the benefits that
you experienced?
And obviously now you're in theagency world, so why would you
choose that?
Susan Yen (25:02):
let's say they're definitely very, very different.
In-house is.
For me, it was a lot, it's alot more work.
A lot, um, a lot, it's a lotmore work.
But I think that the benefitsof it is that you're working for
one client.
You get to know the ins andouts of what's going on the
print to the videos, to thesales team, to the.
You know that company, um, andI think that's what makes that
(25:25):
in-house person so unique.
When it comes to having anindividual dedicated to just
your account because they dothey, they know everything.
They don't have to go and like,communicate with someone else,
get this other person usuallyit's like okay, if I'm going to
set this, I'm going to set it upwhen there's no meetings.
I need to go back and forth.
It's just a lot of, a lot ofwork, um, especially if it's
(25:46):
depending on the size of thecompany, that work just tends to
never really end and if you'reout, you're out, out.
But in-house is definitely Ithink it's because it's just
such a niche.
It's one company, one industryand you're just focused.
I think if you are a personthat's in the or getting started
in the digital marketingatmosphere and trying to decide
between agency and in-house.
It's just do you want to workfor?
(26:08):
Is there a company or industryyou want to work for?
If you are an expert or youreally like an industry and you
want to stay in that industry,definitely finding an in-house
company would be the best fitfor you.
Agencies is you have a bunch ofdifferent managers, different
team account managers, and youhave a bunch of different
accounts and they're in severaldifferent industries for the
(26:28):
most part.
So you are in a day probablyhandling a lot of different
subjects at the same time.
So if you're a person that youlike thinking that way like you
know, sectioning off your daysand talking about different
industries all at the same timeevery day and things are
changing and you're havingconversations with different
personalities every day ifthat's not for you, then
(26:51):
probably agencies like that'sjust what agencies are.
You're getting new clients,clients are leaving.
Sometimes you have longrelationships with clients that
end up staying and you'reworking with multiple different.
You might have a conversiontracking team, you might have a
website team, whatever it is,but you're not just doing that
for one company, you're doing itfor multiple different
(27:12):
companies.
So if you like your hands in alot of different spots and a lot
of different industries and andyou like things to continuously
be changing all the time, thenI think agency is definitely the
way to go, but they are very,very different.
Danny Gavin (27:27):
So, Susan, you recently posted on LinkedIn
about the concept of beingfrequently approached by people
who ask I went to conference andI learned this.
Why aren't we doing that?
What advice do you give tothose who need guidance and
understanding what approach isright for them?
Susan Yen (27:41):
Understanding yourself as much as you can in
terms of, I think, laying downyour own groundwork is what do I
want to do and where do I seemyself?
And then being able to reachout to people, because I don't.
I think LinkedIn is reallygreat about connecting people
and I really don't think thatanyone would be upset if you
read I'd rather get a messagefrom someone saying, hey, I have
(28:08):
a question about this thing.
Or hey, uh, you know we had aconversation at this conference,
um, can we just elaborate onthat?
Or hey, I really want to dothis thing.
How do you get there?
Or you're already doing thisthing, how do I get there?
I'd rather get those messagesthan the messages I'm getting,
which are like a sponsoredmessages or whatever sales
situation that's happening.
And I think it's just, it'susing your connections and I
really don't think that anyone'sever upset to be able to take
that time and help you out andkind of guide you or give you
(28:31):
the different references, andit's just, I think, knowing
where you want to, what you wantto do and asking that question.
But if you're like, I don'teven I, I don't even know, but
what you're doing is looksreally cool and that's.
That's also something else thatyou can do, but I think it's
just like it's doing thatresearch, source research and
(28:51):
and just figuring out you knowwhere you want to be and,
because everything will change,you're going to change, but in
that moment, if that's where youwant to be and that's where you
see yourself, then use thoseconnections and find those
people on LinkedIn and connectto them.
I mean, I know that my companyis great at providing resources,
so if I did want to go to aconference or something, I want
(29:12):
to say it's just also speakingup for yourself.
We might rely on too many peopleto help us out all the time,
but if you don't speak up, thenno one's going to know what you
need help with or how to guideyou and give you the resources
that you need.
So I think that's what I use,especially when going to
conferences is definitely likelistening and asking questions
to people like, ok, I'm reallyscared about this speaking thing
(29:33):
.
Like well, do you have anyrecommendations?
And they're like oh, yeah, Iremember what that felt.
Like I'm like oh, you did.
Ok, I'm not the only one.
That's like sweating here.
So it's just it's askingquestions and just being open to
finding things.
Danny Gavin (29:46):
You've mentioned in the past the tough hustle local
business face.
Can you elaborate on somespecific challenges you've seen
businesses encounter whenconsidering PPC?
Susan Yen (29:56):
Yeah, I think local businesses struggle with paid
search because I think thebiggest thing that I always hear
is it costs a lot of money.
I mean pee pee is like a paidpurse, you know, so it's kind of
um.
I think that that's the biggesthurdles is, everyone thinks
that the paid search is thisreally expensive thing that
(30:16):
needs to happen and it's andit's not.
And then sometimes they're, youknow, they're also pigeonholing
themselves in the methods thatused to work and they don't want
to go outside of that.
I know, when I first moved towhere I live now and I'm going
to these local shops that no onehas heard of I've seen probably
three stores in the samelocation so many times but it's
(30:37):
because I was like if you onlyjust did invest in your own
company and invest in a littlebit of digital marketing and
digital marketing it's not justGoogle, google ads or Bing ads,
it's also just Facebook it wasjust also really cheap.
You could do just spitefullycheap or inexpensive.
There are affordable ways ofdoing paid search If you find
the right people or the rightagency, the right person to do
(30:58):
it.
But try it, and I think toomany people are stuck with.
Oh, you know, I get it, I getmy, my.
Uh, people come into my businessbecause it's a word of mouth or
I put it on this newspaper or Ihave this billboard.
I'm like, how do you track anyof that you don't have?
There's no, there's no way oftracking it.
There's no data, there'snothing.
Everyone is on Google and theysearch you.
(31:19):
So even if it's like SEO, justdo that, just a little bit of
effort.
And I always say like if I see acompany, it's like my biggest
pet peeve.
If I'm going somewhere and Idon't see them running anything
at all, even if their organicsis terrible, their website is
terrible, I always kind ofquestion and maybe it's because
I'm, it's definitely because I'min this industry is if you are
not willing to invest in yourown company and you're not
(31:41):
willing to invest in yourself,why should I invest in you?
I'm not going to build arelationship with a company or
go to the same coffee shop if Iknow they're not going to last
very long.
So I think a lot of companiesare just scared and also it's
hard.
There's a lot of agencies,everyone's marketing at you all
the time saying we can do it, wecan provide here.
You know, if you hire us we'llget all these numbers.
(32:04):
So they've probably been burntalso so much that now they're
just either it's budgetdifferent methods that may have
worked in the past but it mightnot work now, or they've tried
it and it got burnt.
It didn't work that one time 17years ago, so now they just
don't want to do it anymore.
So I think local businessesstruggle because it has to be
(32:26):
usually one of those threethings, especially one for just
talking to the companies thatare around me, and then also
local businesses that we've hadcome in as clients and I usually
ask them is this your firsttime?
Why haven't you ever tried it?
Because at this point, if youhave a website and you're not
running paid search and you'renot doing marketing, I have
questions like why didn't youtry it a while ago?
Danny Gavin (32:48):
and that's usually one of the reasons being an
advocate for diversity indigital marketing.
How do you feel like companiescan better support and amplify
diverse voices in theirmarketing efforts?
Susan Yen (32:58):
it's one of those caution go in that with caution,
like we market people all thetime and we do things for a
reason.
So you can't just do diversityfor the sake of doing diversity,
Because I promise you will knowyour diverse people and your
diverse team members will knowand they'll pick it up and sniff
it out.
So, like any posts that you dothat you're like, oh, happy,
(33:20):
whatever.
Okay, but what is the purposebehind it?
I think being able to providenot just like resources and
platforms and the space for yourteam members to feel
comfortable, Like if you have acompany where it's not very
diverse, that's fine, Acceptthat fact, but don't just do a
hiring for the sake of havingyou know diversity in the
(33:41):
company and also just talk toyour minorities.
And also, that also depends oneach individual.
I'm a person where I'm likeplease have a conversation with
me.
If you're not really sure aboutsomething and you're not really
sure if you should post thatthing or if we should celebrate
this thing, or what effortsshould we put in, then ask that
question.
I'm pretty sure there arecompanies out there and
resources that will help you.
(34:02):
I'm pretty sure there arecompanies out there and
resources that will help you,Like I think there's like DI
companies and they'll tell youhow to.
I don't really know hownecessarily, I know within my
company I'm like okay, these arethe things that I would like to
see for our company is you knowthat when we're posting things,
there's a reason behind it?
Because if we're going to justpost it, then I want us to.
Why are we doing that?
And I want us to have reasonsbehind it, as opposed to just
(34:24):
doing it for the sake of doingit.
And so I think, like providingplatforms where I'm like you
know, I want to go to minorityconferences where there are
women, like black women inmarketing or being an advocate.
How can you guys help me be anadvocate of this?
I think companies need to holdthemselves.
Just accepting that you don'thave diversity is step one, and
(34:47):
accepting that this is wherewe're at now.
But would we like to havediversity?
Sure, Not every single companyis going to have a diverse work
field because, depending onwhere you are located I'm in New
Hampshire I'm probably going tobe the only white person in the
company if I go to mostcompanies, but that's just the
area.
And accepting that fact, butjust asking and communicating
with your diverse team members,or even going out and finding a
(35:09):
company and saying, hey look,this is we'd like to be a more,
we'd like to support thiscommunity a little bit more,
Even within as a company, withinyour neighborhoods.
Is supporting those localbusinesses like supporting those
diverse minority we have thoseholidays for a reason like
support minority businesses.
So that's like if you're gonnado a post, then I hope somewhere
(35:29):
in your blog or something thator donations that you've made to
help those local businesses,those minorities or those women
in minority-owned businesses.
Like you've done that and youare putting kind of we're at a
place in in the world where putyour money where your mouth is
type of a thing, but put yoursupporters doesn't end up being
(35:50):
necessarily needs to be.
Money could just be one of theuh.
My favorite things with withwordstream that we did um in the
past was uh with like fridaysyou can choose something that
you wanted to do and we would goat it.
You can do a soup kitchen umevent, so like have teams go to
soup kitchen.
You can even for um disabilityum individuals.
You there's runs that you cando so to support different
(36:12):
organizations.
So there are ways of doing it.
You just need to honestly justput effort into doing the
research, because they're justsaying that you're gonna do and
just throwing it out there andjust posting it on the internet.
Everyone does that.
I post stuff sometimes that I'mlike it's just there for fluff,
I'm not trying to actually sayanything, but companies really
can do that.
You really need to stand behindevery single post you do and
(36:33):
the brand that you're creating.
Danny Gavin (36:34):
Yeah, I think that's so powerful because it's
very easy to just check boxesand say, okay, we did this, but,
like you said, the people thatit does affect they see past.
Are you really just doing thator just doing it because you
have to, and I think that'sreally important.
So, with all the changes comingwith AI and everything, how do
you feel like people canfuture-proof themselves,
(36:55):
specifically when it comes topaid search?
Susan Yen (36:57):
I have a like-hate relationship with AI currently.
I just went to NADA it's one ofthe biggest auto dealership
conferences with my team and Iwas talking to one of our sales
members, robin, and she wastelling me she's like I have a
really hard time talking toclients because everyone's
asking us if we're doing AI andI'm like, oh, that's funny
because I've got all theconferences I've gone to.
(37:18):
The big headlines is always AIand whatever else which it's
amazing and AI has.
I think we've all we've allalways in paid search have kind
of been using a version of AI.
I actually think I did aLinkedIn post about it today.
We've always been using aversion of AI.
It's just now grown a lot moreand now it's a new shiny toy
(37:40):
that everyone wants to try outand to learn about and I think
that AI can really help us.
I just think we really need tobe careful with the extent of
which we depend on it too much,because I can tell if someone
has written their whole entirething on a chat TVT like that's
an AI or like their ad copiescopies.
(38:01):
You can tell sometimes thatsomeone just copied and pasted
it, because the amount of adcopies that you have to write,
and sometimes because I don'tthink it's it's there quite yet
with certain things, is thingsstart to sound too similar, um,
especially with ad copy andstuff, because it's the same
industry, people are probablygoing to be searching the same
things, but we still need to addthat human aspect of how do we
(38:24):
make this unique to thatindividual, because they don't
necessarily know us as people.
This is the machine and it'shere to assist us, um, in the
things that we do need help with, um, but not necessarily to to
take over and for us to just useit all together.
Like if you're going to launchit.
I tell my team I'm like, ifyou're going to launch a
campaign, yes, use chat gp, it'sgoing to be really great.
(38:47):
But don't use just that.
Go on the website and learnwhat they're.
You know what's on theirwebsite, what's on their content
.
Look around you, I don't know.
I'll be driving.
I see a billboard.
I'm like that is all right,that's a good idea, and I'll,
you know, branch off of that,like using an idea platform, and
I mean there are definitelycertain areas where, like
reporting and stuff like thatdoes make our jobs.
It will make our jobs a loteasier, especially with, like,
(39:09):
the image generations.
Okay, that not so much, not yet.
It's not there yet, becausesome of those images are
definitely questionable, but Ithink it's.
I think it's definitely gettingthere.
But I do want us, as paidsearch people, to definitely
take not.
I think maybe it's because it'sjust such a, but it just sounds
like such a buzzword now, whereit's just everywhere and
(39:30):
everyone's, especially myclients, they're like are we
using a?
And I'm like do you even knowhow?
what that means yeah, I'm like,well, it could be everything and
anything at this point.
What did you learn?
So I always want to ask themlike okay, you're bringing it up
, You're asking me for a reason.
So someone told you that theywere using it.
(39:50):
How did they use it?
Because I need to know thatfirst before I tell you how we
use it.
That's so good, Because I tellthem that we don't really use AI
.
Our team write your ads manually.
And I'm like no, you can tellthem we use AI, but we don't use
solely AI.
We use AI to optimize and tobuild and to read that data and
(40:12):
to help us out formulatesomething that you know will
help us build the strongestcampaign for them.
But it's not our everything alltogether.
So I think it's definitelygoing to be an amazing tool.
It's going to get there alltogether.
So I think it's definitelygoing to be an amazing tool.
It's going to get there.
But I don't want us to forgetjust the talent and the mindset
that we, as humans, still haveand to integrate that together
and not just depend on it toomuch.
Danny Gavin (40:33):
All right.
So before we wrap up, a quicklightning round.
I'm going to mention a topicand you've got to tell me what
your favorite thing is First.
One travel Greece.
And you've got to tell me whatyour favorite thing is First one
travel.
Greece.
I like Greece also.
Okay, food.
Susan Yen (40:48):
Chikuri board.
Danny Gavin (40:54):
What I think that could match Like your background
is very like Chikuri it is.
It makes sense.
Susan Yen (40:59):
If I could be on a tropical island somewhere, that
would be my background at alltimes.
Danny Gavin (41:04):
And if you had a day where you didn't have to
work, what would you do?
What would be your favoritething?
Susan Yen (41:09):
Just sleeping and binge watching TV Phone on, do
not disturb.
Danny Gavin (41:13):
Favorite show.
Susan Yen (41:14):
The Witcher.
Danny Gavin (41:16):
I enjoyed Witcher as well.
Well, susan, thank you so muchfor this awesome talk.
I've learned so many new thingsabout you and we have so many
different things to consider aswell, based on what you spoke
about.
So thank you so much for beinga guest on the Digital Marketing
Mentor and thank you, listeners, for tuning into the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Susan Yen (41:34):
Okay, thank you, danny, it was great.
Great to see you again.
Danny Gavin (41:36):
Thank you for listening to thedmmentorcom and
at thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify orwherever you listen to your
podcasts for more marketing.
Mentor magic.
See you next time.
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, and, together with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
(00:36):
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Now get ready to get human.
Susan is a passionate digitalmarketing expert with over seven
years of experience in bothagency and in-house environments
.
She specializes in craftingimpactful PPC campaigns that not
only drive customer growth andincrease sales, but also
maximizing ROI while minimizingbudget and waste.
As an agency leader andemerging speaker, she's
(00:59):
dedicated to exploringinnovative strategies and tools
to help businesses thrive, whilealso advocating for diversity
and personal growth in thefast-paced world of digital
marketing.
Today, we're going to betalking about personal growth,
mentorship, diversity and thefuture of marketing and PPC.
How are you doing, susan?
Susan Yen (01:14):
I'm good.
Thanks for having me, Danny.
This is awesome.
Danny Gavin (01:18):
Yeah, and we hung out a couple months ago in San
Diego, so that's when I firstgot to meet you and you're
really cool.
Susan Yen (01:26):
So it's so nice to have you on the podcast.
Yeah, time goes by reallyreally fast, but it was such an
incredible just conference andmeeting just talented experts
and just industry leaders aswell.
So it's really nice to get tomeet you, obviously.
So it's always great to connect.
Danny Gavin (01:39):
So, susan, where did you go to school and what
did you study?
Susan Yen (01:41):
I went to the University of New Hampshire
studying communications, so Iwas in a COLA program and then I
did marketing as a minor.
Danny Gavin (01:51):
Are there any things that happened inside the
classroom or outside theclassroom?
When you look back at thatexperience, that kind of paved
the way for you today.
Susan Yen (02:01):
I've never been the school.
I hated school.
To be completely honest, Ithink I always struggled with
just learning in general andsitting in a classroom.
So having people outside ofjust the classroom and having,
you know, my professors orteachers just provide a space
for me to go afterwards to beable to, because sitting in
(02:24):
class it's a lot of people youcan't really ask those personal
questions.
You don't want to look stupidno one, you will never look
stupid, but at that age, at thatpoint in your life, you don't
want to be that person.
So I had this amazing professor,professor michael jackson, who
I was always able to go to forguardians, and then our, you
know, guidance professors, um,or just also we had
organizations that you couldjoin.
So we had, you know, blackstudent union, where you know,
guidance professors, or justalso we had organizations that
(02:45):
you could join.
So we had, you know, blackStudent Union, where, you know,
as, in a place where it's NewHampshire, I think we try to be
diverse and I think UNH does areally good job of trying to
push diversity.
But you're in New Hampshire,there's only so much you can do
there.
But we did have organizations.
You know our Asian Coalition,our diversity, our LGBTQ
(03:08):
organizations, just being ableto provide those spaces for
people to be able to connect andtalk about what's going on,
because I mean it's being incollege, that's your first time
making these decisions thatcould be very impactful later on
in your life and you need aspace, a safe place to talk to
people about it and to share,you know, kind of connect and
(03:29):
say, hey look, I'm not the onlyone going through it.
So it's not only nice to haveyou know professors are able to
have those office hours and giveyou space for that, but also
the school to provide a spacewhere people like you and other
students like you can alsoconnect, because it's not just
not just about education, it'salso about just personal growth.
That also happens.
I'm in UNH.
Just an incredible job of beingable to provide the spaces for
(03:51):
for you to grow individually,but also as a student and how
did you choose that university?
Danny Gavin (03:56):
did you grow up like around the corner or did
you actually say, hey, I'm goingto New Hampshire?
Susan Yen (03:59):
I don't even think I thought about college until I
was like a junior in high school.
I wasn't really sure what Iwanted to do and I give props to
any high school that's headingoff to college that is very
determined, knows what they wantto do.
I don't think I knew what Iwanted to do until I graduated
college so I chose UNH.
(04:20):
Honestly, I love my mom and sheceases.
I love you and I'm sorry.
I needed to branch out and be onmy own and be able to make my
own decisions and kind of pushmyself a lot more, because I've
always been I think one of mycoaches in high school was I
always said that Susan does, shecan always do better, but she
doesn't push herself and becauseI always have people there to
(04:42):
always kind of help me out, notlike as a crutch, but just being
able to give that space tomyself and I think just leaving
the house is what I want to do.
But I didn't want to go so faraway that if something were to
happen I couldn't come back home.
And UNH was that kind ofperfect middle ground and it's
just the community there is sogreat and they have such an
inviting network.
(05:03):
So as soon as I got on campus Ijust felt honestly at home, so
that's mainly kind of why Ichose that school.
But yeah, it's just a greatschool and just a space and the
ability to grow and thrive.
Danny Gavin (05:15):
So did you fall in love with marketing at school,
or was it more later on down thepath when that happened?
Susan Yen (05:21):
I remember sitting down my senior year of high
school and my guidance counselor, you know, mentioned that oh,
you should do communications,and I was like I don't even know
what that is.
Instead, I decided to go tobusiness right when I went to
college.
So I did Whittemore School ofBusiness Now it's Peter T Paul.
I hated the business portion ofeverything.
But when you take thesebusiness classes, they do have
(05:43):
the marketing portions of it.
And marketing is not just youknow one thing, it's a bunch of
different things that you canstudy.
And because I didn't know whatI wanted to do, I didn't know
where I wanted to go.
The world is just such a bigplace and everyone's all kind of
pushing you to go one way orthe other and I didn't know.
You know everyone's telling youwhen you graduate you know
school you're going to have lotsof debt, make sure you can have
(06:05):
a job.
So there's just differentmindsets with economics or all
that business stuff that I waslike that is not me.
I need to be able to explore mycreative side but then also be
able to have that degree so Ican graduate and choose.
So I have, you know, it's notjust economics, because when you
do economics, it kind of putsyou in that in this box.
(06:27):
And marketing was like you cando tv, you can do print, you can
do computers, you can go, youcan work for any company,
doesn't matter what um industryyou're in.
That's what made me fall inlove with marketing.
I actually thought I was goingto be in tv, um doing all that
broadcasting and behind thecameras and stuff, and, and that
was just a lot of work.
But I think that's why I chosemarketing.
I fell in love with marketingbecause it's so diverse and it's
(06:49):
so ever-changing that I likedthat flow, that consistency,
like no day is ever going to bethe same in marketing, which it
won't.
Well, for me anyways.
Danny Gavin (06:59):
No, I agree, and either people really like that
or some people don't.
Susan Yen (07:02):
But if you do, then marketing is a really good
choice, so Susan how would youdefine a mentor?
I would define a mentor assomeone that definitely has
experience, regardless of ifit's in the area in which you're
mentoring that person to be.
But I think a mentor is aperson that holds space and is
able to just listen, but thenalso give the feedback where
(07:24):
feedback is needed, because wealready have enough people,
enough in the world trying totell us where to go, who to be,
what to do and all this stuffthat I think.
Just being able to hold spacefor those individuals and be
able to kind of steer them inthe direction where they want to
go, but also sometimes peopledon't know where they want to go
but having them be able to getor be able to talk about because
(07:48):
sometimes I'll do that, I'lltalk out loud to myself
sometimes or I'll call you know,my sister or something, and
I'll just talk out and then I'llcome to my own realization of
my own solutions.
And I think mentors are meant tocreate space.
We're not here to push peopleto say, hey, this is what's
right and what's wrong.
It's a hey, I'm here if youneed guidance, I'm here if you
need the references.
(08:08):
I can connect you to the rightpeople if need be.
If you want to do this thing,I'm going to help you, guide you
or provide the right tools andequipments to do what you need
to do, or that support.
Actually, I think that's whatmentors are supposed to be.
They're supposed to be asupport system and a foundation
to hey, if you do try that outand it doesn't work out, let's
sit back down, let's talk aboutit and we'll figure it out
(08:28):
together.
Danny Gavin (08:29):
So let's talk about some of your most influential
colleagues, who have alsomentored you, namely Nava
Hopkins and Mark Irvine.
Susan Yen (08:36):
Yes, we worked together for a really long time.
So I started working at acompany I think they got bought
by Gannet, I believe it wascalled WordStream and I didn't
really quite know, understandpaid search.
So I started off because youdidn't learn Google Ads when I
was in school, that's just.
I don't think it really existed, it wasn't really there, no one
(08:58):
was really getting into it.
So I kind of worked as amarketing person, which meant
you did everything.
So when I realized I wanted togo into that Google paid search
route and understand it, justworking at a company like
Workstream, there's just so muchthat you could do.
Mark and Nava just knew I justlooked at them like you know,
(09:20):
when you know, like they justknow, they're just otherworldly.
Like they just know everythingand you can never be anywhere in
years.
They any questions I ever had,they had the answers to them.
And if they didn't have theanswers to them, they would come
back and just say, hey, look, I, I it's okay to not know
something, and if you don't knowsomething then it's okay to
admit it.
And then just say, hey, look,I'll go back.
And it now becomes a learninglesson more than anything and
(09:40):
just that ability to just beable to say, hey look, um, if,
if this is what you want to do,this is what you're good at,
let's go ahead and work towardsthat.
I remember one day I worked withour software engineers.
So I sat downstairs with Navacause we're both we I trained
and consult the clients on oursoftware and she just did
conferences and all that stuff.
And I remember her telling methat I should be doing
(10:02):
conferences and I rememberlooking at her like she was
crazy.
So I was like that is that's alot, that's a you thing.
You do that it's.
It's just sounded so justoutside of my spectrum and
somewhere where I was down theline maybe in 10 years or
something I'll get there but shejust had she saw something in
me that I didn't necessarily seeat that time and now you know
(10:25):
she came back and she's just gotme connected to all these
amazing people.
With Mark I actually at onepoint I decided that I didn't
want to do paid search anymore.
I worked for a really smallstartup and that didn't work out
.
So I was like you know what,maybe I need to take a step back
and reevaluate what it is thatI really want to do and I did
like paid search.
It was just like trying to findthe right company, the right
(10:46):
fit.
And I remember getting amessage from Mark actually from
Matt and then Mark and you knowhe was like, hey, we have a
position that's open.
Do you want to come work?
And I was like I don't know.
He's like, well, you're reallygood at this and I think that
you could, you know, createsomething great here.
So I think, like with the two ofthem, they just they see
(11:08):
something and they do this with,I think, everyone around them
and especially with Mark is theysee something within
individuals and they'll try tokind of motivate you and push
you to do that and say, like Isee something in you that you
might not see.
If you don't want to do that,that's okay.
See, if you don't want to dothat, that's okay, that's fine,
but just believe in thepotential that you have.
Don't do too much of thatunnecessary work.
If this is a path that youreally like, Push yourself to do
(11:29):
the best and be the best thatyou can be.
And that's kind of there whatthey've done and showed me.
Danny Gavin (11:33):
Wow.
So I had no clue that youworked at WordStream with them
and now this adds so much more.
I know who I want to bring onmy team, I know which A player I
want to bring.
That's a huge compliment andit's awesome that, yeah, that
(11:54):
you just had that.
You had that relationship withsomeone like that, someone who
you like, really looked up toand then able to connect with
them, help you grow and thenalso see your potential.
Susan Yen (12:09):
And then even say, hey, I want to bring her on my
team here as well.
So cool, yeah.
Yeah, it's definitely unique.
I think it gives props to whohe is as a person as well, with
how he created the team here atSearch.
Danny Gavin (12:16):
Lab.
So obviously Nava said hey,susan, you really should go into
conferences.
So how long did it actuallytake?
I don't know when.
When was your first conferencethat you spoke at?
Susan Yen (12:27):
Ah, three months ago.
Danny Gavin (12:29):
Right.
So I, I, I didn't want to, Ididn't want to assume it, but
wow.
So it so.
It took a couple of years, huh.
Susan Yen (12:37):
I like, yeah, I think even when I thought about it,
it was more of a hey, causeunfortunately we did lose, um
unexpected lose, uh, mark, andit just left such a gaping hole
in our company, cause he justdoes so much, just not like
within our company, but just injust the marketing, I think paid
search industry in general andespecially with our company.
(12:59):
You know, we're running aroundtrying to figure out, okay, what
he did, everything, everything.
How do we kind of split up thestuff?
Um, and I remember telling himthat I really I love traveling.
And he's like well, if you lovetraveling, you like conferences
, how do you feel about?
And I was like, well, let'sjust we're gonna just push that
aside.
So it's kind of, um, you know,when you're sitting in those
(13:20):
moments, um, and kind of gothrough conversations and and
that was one thing I remembertalking about and I was like you
know what this is, I need toget out of my, my comfort zone.
And I remember, yeah, namareached out and she was like
they're looking for speakers forthis event and the whole time I
was like, even honestly,throughout the whole entire
process until that day.
So I think my first speakingagent was SMS Max in Oregon and
(13:45):
that whole from November, fromthe time that I found out that I
was speaking to the time I wasdone speaking.
I was scared it was just awhole different, but it did take
out.
It took a bit, quite a bit.
It took some time, for sure.
Danny Gavin (14:00):
I know how amazing Mark was and I think in some
ways he kind of left you a giftright.
It's like, hey, you know I'vegot to go, but I need someone to
fill my footsteps.
You know footsteps in my place.
So it's cool that he left thatgift for you and that you
actually jumped on it.
So obviously I heard you speak.
You're wonderful and amazingand hopefully it's going to be
the start to a whole new chapterfor you, which you've already
(14:20):
started.
But to continue and keepgrowing, it's so cool.
Susan Yen (14:24):
Yeah, I got to make them proud, both of them proud,
so that's my goal.
Danny Gavin (14:28):
So let's talk about now how you kind of mentor
others.
You put down that you mentoryour sisters, samantha and Seth,
so we'd love to know, yeah, howdoes that mentoring
relationship work?
Susan Yen (14:37):
It's a little bit different.
I mean, I have like fouryounger sisters, so I've always
felt more like a mentor than andthen.
So we all kind of came here andI think it's always doing the
things or making the decisionsthat you would look back and be
proud.
There are going to be somedecisions that you're going to
(14:58):
make that you're not so proud of, but I think being able to talk
to my siblings especiallybecause there's again there's
five of us, so there's differentstages that each of them have
kind of gone through and I thinkwhat our conversations are
either it's you know, I've gonethrough these different things
and there's you're not going tolearn everything from school,
which is frustrating.
It is what it is sometimes lifeexperiences.
(15:19):
So it's always great to be ableto sit down and talk to them.
And you know, college decisionswas a big one.
How do I apply for these things?
My guidance counselor sayingthese.
But these people are sayingthat, like what should I do?
Um, taxes, okay, now it's timeto get a job.
Or like, what do?
How do I have these interviews?
What does my resume look like?
What do I want to do,especially with it?
(15:40):
When it comes to family members,it's easy to want to be
protective and to kind of createa bubble around them and just
say, yeah, that sounds like agood idea, but maybe not, but
it's.
It's usually like, hey, I'mgoing to be here.
Um, if, if that's what youreally want to do, I'm here and
as a support system and I am acall away if you need to.
Happy to look at anything youneed me to look at, happy to
(16:02):
look at any negotiations thatyou might need to do in regards
to, like, your salary oranything like that.
But never trying, never tryingto push them too much one
direction or the other, becauseI hated that.
I'm the type of person if youpush me too hard on something, I
probably will go the otherdirection.
So just doing that for, youknow, my siblings has always
been something that I'mpassionate about, and I think
(16:23):
they also push me to just be abetter person in my career and
then just as an individual.
And then this is actually myfirst time being a manager,
which I never thought.
I I don't, I don't know, Inever thought of myself as as a
manager and as that mentor forthem, cause I know, when it
comes to work is, you know,there's this gray area that
sometimes happens with hey, I'myour manager, this is your job.
(16:45):
But then also, how do I help myteam, make sure I'm listening
to what they want to do andwhere they see their career,
because I think, as as managers,I think managers I call
managers mentors as as well,because I think that that's one
in the same and it should be inthat job description.
So I love being able to kind ofsee my team grow from hey, what
(17:06):
do you know?
What are some things I can doto help you out, or do we need
to?
What are some tools I canprovide you?
Where do you see yourself in?
A little bit, I want likesometimes this isn't going to be
, you know, the last companythat that person's going to work
, and we can't expect that fromfrom people.
It's a.
This industry is very fastmoving and people's lives change
and they go in all differentdirections, and if I can help
(17:28):
provide that the tools and theresources that they need, then
i'm'm happy to do that.
I mean, I have a team memberright now that, you know, wants
to be a manager one day and hewants to take the necessary
steps to get there.
So it's just again, it's justit's providing that space, space
for them to be able to not onlyopen that space so that they
feel comfortable telling me,because I think that also
(17:50):
sometimes you're like, hey,where do you want to go?
And they're like, well, wholedifferent industry.
So just that honesty and thatfeedback loop that ends up
happening, because then theyalso help me become again just a
better leader in industry aswell.
So I think we've workedtogether in terms of just
creating that space for oneanother and teaching each other
all that stuff.
Danny Gavin (18:11):
And in that specific case, did you ask them
hey, I think like you would be agood manager, or was more like
them coming to you saying, hey,what do I need to do in order to
get there?
Susan Yen (18:18):
I started with more asking them what they wanted to
do.
Where do they see themselves?
Because sometimes when we asmentors speak first, that kind
of might take away from thatlistening that I think a lot of
people don't necessarily do.
So I always like to ask hey, Ithink I do this, you know, with
my clients you had any questionsconcerns.
(18:39):
There's something that you willwant to bring up first so that
we can address that.
And if I need to cater myconversations and I can cater my
tone a little bit differentlyso for them to kind of come up
to me and say, hey, look, thisis where I want to go, because
it's not about me.
If I see them being a manager,then great.
If they're like I'm not reallyactually sure, okay.
Then I'll say, hey, look well,from outside person, looking in,
(19:00):
I think you'd be great for thisrole.
But if they know where theywant to go, then I don't really
see the sense of me bringingthis up.
But I will, if they are willingto.
I'll say, hey, like, if youwant to hear me out, I think
that this role is, I think thisis a good direction.
But I also have you consideredbeing a manager or being a team
lead, then I would throw that inthere, but I think it all
(19:22):
starts with listening to themfirst.
Danny Gavin (19:22):
So, outside of the things that we already discussed
, can you share a pivotal momentin your career that
significantly contributed toyour personal growth in digital
marketing?
Susan Yen (19:36):
I think I thrived myself on always just being
super, super driven, superindependent and always being a
perfectionist at all times,which I that's just mad.
It's kind of messed up whereyou just you just can't, can't
do that all the time Cause then,when things don't work out the
way that you planned, it sticksand does take a toll on like
your own mental state a littlebit.
So I actually worked for acompany who were like a startup
(19:57):
for maybe six months andunfortunately I got let go and
that cause again, being thatperfectionist and being that
goal setter where you knowanything that I do is very
purposeful.
So for for that to happen, itwas just kind of a oh, oh, no,
okay, what's going on, what do Ineed to do?
Like this is not good and I'msad.
It just made me maybe like, oh,I'm so bad at this job, I'm
(20:18):
terrible, and that's kind ofwhere my mentality went from.
I think we go through the phasesof grief, anger, sadness, and
then you know, okay, I need tolike figure this out.
So I think that's when I took astep back and thought maybe
this is not something I'm goodat and maybe this is just a
(20:40):
career that isn't best fit forme at all.
It made me doubt myself in myexpertise and where I was going
in terms of growth wise, and soI think, going through that, I
think I needed to do that and Ineeded to cause.
I've never lost a job in mywhole entire life.
People do, and it happens to alot of people.
So to me I was like, oh no, I'msuch a failure.
This is just not great.
So I think I needed to do it andI think it definitely coming
(21:00):
out of it on the other side andthat's kind of where Mark came
in it was like you're good atthis job, that company and you
guys just may not have been thebest for each other, but I think
that also I took their feedbackas well with my performance,
and I think that also pushed meto just learn more and get a
little bit more information.
And so I got, you know, Istudied a lot more and got into
my resources.
(21:20):
So I was like now I'm going tocome back and be the best I
could be.
So it's definitely.
I think the athletic,competitive side of me
definitely came out, where I waslike okay, if I'm not, if you
guys don't think I'm good atthis, then I'm going to be the
best.
So I think that that pusheswhat I needed.
Definitely was not a goodfeeling at the time, but I think
it helped me kind of do amental check in regards to just
my profession, my knowledge baseand what I really want to do
(21:44):
and the expertise that I neededto add on to my resume per se.
Danny Gavin (21:49):
Yeah, I'm a big believer that things happen for
a reason and things really dohappen for the best.
And I know that's hard, becauseobviously there are hard things
that happen in our life.
So it's difficult, right, I'mnot saying it's an easy thing,
but this thing that I always sayis, like we ask God to bless us
, that we should see the goodright.
So it's awesome that you canlike step back now, right, thank
(22:11):
God, you're very successful.
But to look back and say, hey,yeah, that was really crummy,
but you know what, because ofthat, look how much I grew and
my perspective switched, that'sawesome.
It's awesome that you're ableto look back at that.
Another interesting thing, justbecause I was at a conference a
week ago.
It was a bunch of agency ownersand it was called 2Y3X and it's
based on the book Scale atSpeed.
(22:33):
It speaks about the concept ofgetting rid of C players, and I
know I'm talking from the agencyowner perspective, so it's a
little bit different.
But I thought the idea that acompany, an organization, has a
certain core values system andsome people in your company
aren't necessarily going to havethe same values.
Now, that doesn't mean thatthey're bad people or anything,
(22:54):
but sometimes they're just not amatch and really, in order for
them to find the best place,it's about how can they find an
organization where their corevalues and the organization's
core values match.
So I think, when you look at itthat way, it makes it a little
bit easier to be like you knowwhere they.
But I'm not excusing it, I'mjust saying that I think we all
have to, like, look at ourselvesand be like okay, what's
(23:16):
important to me?
What are those things that aregoing to make a difference and
to make sure that where you'reworking, you're in line with
that, and if it's not, that'sokay.
Right, you're not always goingto be a perfect match, but then
there is going to be a placesomewhere out there for you.
I know I learned that conceptrecently and it's kind of like
what we're talking about, so Ijust wanted to bring it up.
Susan Yen (23:34):
I think it's.
I think the experience inaddition to that is is that
cause I always tell my, mysisters or any of my friends,
when it comes to took thebusiness classes and like
interviews and all that stuff.
So I always say, hey, if you'redoing, if you're looking for a
company or you're doinginterviews, is, I think,
thinking about it as in this isan interview for two people,
(23:54):
like it's not just them lookingfor you, it's you also looking
for them.
Because if you think about itas a one-sided, like okay, do I
fit in their mold, and you keepit at that, later on, six months
from now, a year from now,you're like, oh, this isn't
really my environment, I want tobe in, I want to leave.
It's because that basis of Ithink, when they say, hey, do
(24:16):
you have any questions, I thinkthat's the perfect time to say,
okay, now I'm going to interviewyou guys and see if you guys
fit with how I want to live mylife and where I see myself and
who I am as a person.
I mean, if it doesn't match up,sometimes that's just as you
mentioned, mentioned, not thebest.
I always tell people that it'san interview is our and jobs are
.
It's a two-sided relationship.
Danny Gavin (24:36):
It's it's definitely give and take out,
and I think that's also likesuper important for sure yeah,
and I use that concept also justwith agency relationships, also
right, with our clients, thesame deal, oh yeah.
So, talking about that, becauseyou've been lucky to have
experienced both in-house aswell as an agency, can you just
(24:56):
compare a little bit thechallenges or the benefits that
you experienced?
And obviously now you're in theagency world, so why would you
choose that?
Susan Yen (25:02):
let's say they're definitely very, very different.
In-house is.
For me, it was a lot, it's alot more work.
A lot, um, a lot, it's a lotmore work.
But I think that the benefitsof it is that you're working for
one client.
You get to know the ins andouts of what's going on the
print to the videos, to thesales team, to the.
You know that company, um, andI think that's what makes that
(25:25):
in-house person so unique.
When it comes to having anindividual dedicated to just
your account because they dothey, they know everything.
They don't have to go and like,communicate with someone else,
get this other person usuallyit's like okay, if I'm going to
set this, I'm going to set it upwhen there's no meetings.
I need to go back and forth.
It's just a lot of, a lot ofwork, um, especially if it's
(25:46):
depending on the size of thecompany, that work just tends to
never really end and if you'reout, you're out, out.
But in-house is definitely Ithink it's because it's just
such a niche.
It's one company, one industryand you're just focused.
I think if you are a personthat's in the or getting started
in the digital marketingatmosphere and trying to decide
between agency and in-house.
It's just do you want to workfor?
(26:08):
Is there a company or industryyou want to work for?
If you are an expert or youreally like an industry and you
want to stay in that industry,definitely finding an in-house
company would be the best fitfor you.
Agencies is you have a bunch ofdifferent managers, different
team account managers, and youhave a bunch of different
accounts and they're in severaldifferent industries for the
(26:28):
most part.
So you are in a day probablyhandling a lot of different
subjects at the same time.
So if you're a person that youlike thinking that way like you
know, sectioning off your daysand talking about different
industries all at the same timeevery day and things are
changing and you're havingconversations with different
personalities every day ifthat's not for you, then
(26:51):
probably agencies like that'sjust what agencies are.
You're getting new clients,clients are leaving.
Sometimes you have longrelationships with clients that
end up staying and you'reworking with multiple different.
You might have a conversiontracking team, you might have a
website team, whatever it is,but you're not just doing that
for one company, you're doing itfor multiple different
(27:12):
companies.
So if you like your hands in alot of different spots and a lot
of different industries and andyou like things to continuously
be changing all the time, thenI think agency is definitely the
way to go, but they are very,very different.
Danny Gavin (27:27):
So, Susan, you recently posted on LinkedIn
about the concept of beingfrequently approached by people
who ask I went to conference andI learned this.
Why aren't we doing that?
What advice do you give tothose who need guidance and
understanding what approach isright for them?
Susan Yen (27:41):
Understanding yourself as much as you can in
terms of, I think, laying downyour own groundwork is what do I
want to do and where do I seemyself?
And then being able to reachout to people, because I don't.
I think LinkedIn is reallygreat about connecting people
and I really don't think thatanyone would be upset if you
read I'd rather get a messagefrom someone saying, hey, I have
(28:08):
a question about this thing.
Or hey, uh, you know we had aconversation at this conference,
um, can we just elaborate onthat?
Or hey, I really want to dothis thing.
How do you get there?
Or you're already doing thisthing, how do I get there?
I'd rather get those messagesthan the messages I'm getting,
which are like a sponsoredmessages or whatever sales
situation that's happening.
And I think it's just, it'susing your connections and I
really don't think that anyone'sever upset to be able to take
that time and help you out andkind of guide you or give you
(28:31):
the different references, andit's just, I think, knowing
where you want to, what you wantto do and asking that question.
But if you're like, I don'teven I, I don't even know, but
what you're doing is looksreally cool and that's.
That's also something else thatyou can do, but I think it's
just like it's doing thatresearch, source research and
(28:51):
and just figuring out you knowwhere you want to be and,
because everything will change,you're going to change, but in
that moment, if that's where youwant to be and that's where you
see yourself, then use thoseconnections and find those
people on LinkedIn and connectto them.
I mean, I know that my companyis great at providing resources,
so if I did want to go to aconference or something, I want
(29:12):
to say it's just also speakingup for yourself.
We might rely on too many peopleto help us out all the time,
but if you don't speak up, thenno one's going to know what you
need help with or how to guideyou and give you the resources
that you need.
So I think that's what I use,especially when going to
conferences is definitely likelistening and asking questions
to people like, ok, I'm reallyscared about this speaking thing
(29:33):
.
Like well, do you have anyrecommendations?
And they're like oh, yeah, Iremember what that felt.
Like I'm like oh, you did.
Ok, I'm not the only one.
That's like sweating here.
So it's just it's askingquestions and just being open to
finding things.
Danny Gavin (29:46):
You've mentioned in the past the tough hustle local
business face.
Can you elaborate on somespecific challenges you've seen
businesses encounter whenconsidering PPC?
Susan Yen (29:56):
Yeah, I think local businesses struggle with paid
search because I think thebiggest thing that I always hear
is it costs a lot of money.
I mean pee pee is like a paidpurse, you know, so it's kind of
um.
I think that that's the biggesthurdles is, everyone thinks
that the paid search is thisreally expensive thing that
(30:16):
needs to happen and it's andit's not.
And then sometimes they're, youknow, they're also pigeonholing
themselves in the methods thatused to work and they don't want
to go outside of that.
I know, when I first moved towhere I live now and I'm going
to these local shops that no onehas heard of I've seen probably
three stores in the samelocation so many times but it's
(30:37):
because I was like if you onlyjust did invest in your own
company and invest in a littlebit of digital marketing and
digital marketing it's not justGoogle, google ads or Bing ads,
it's also just Facebook it wasjust also really cheap.
You could do just spitefullycheap or inexpensive.
There are affordable ways ofdoing paid search If you find
the right people or the rightagency, the right person to do
(30:58):
it.
But try it, and I think toomany people are stuck with.
Oh, you know, I get it, I getmy, my.
Uh, people come into my businessbecause it's a word of mouth or
I put it on this newspaper or Ihave this billboard.
I'm like, how do you track anyof that you don't have?
There's no, there's no way oftracking it.
There's no data, there'snothing.
Everyone is on Google and theysearch you.
(31:19):
So even if it's like SEO, justdo that, just a little bit of
effort.
And I always say like if I see acompany, it's like my biggest
pet peeve.
If I'm going somewhere and Idon't see them running anything
at all, even if their organicsis terrible, their website is
terrible, I always kind ofquestion and maybe it's because
I'm, it's definitely because I'min this industry is if you are
not willing to invest in yourown company and you're not
(31:41):
willing to invest in yourself,why should I invest in you?
I'm not going to build arelationship with a company or
go to the same coffee shop if Iknow they're not going to last
very long.
So I think a lot of companiesare just scared and also it's
hard.
There's a lot of agencies,everyone's marketing at you all
the time saying we can do it, wecan provide here.
You know, if you hire us we'llget all these numbers.
(32:04):
So they've probably been burntalso so much that now they're
just either it's budgetdifferent methods that may have
worked in the past but it mightnot work now, or they've tried
it and it got burnt.
It didn't work that one time 17years ago, so now they just
don't want to do it anymore.
So I think local businessesstruggle because it has to be
(32:26):
usually one of those threethings, especially one for just
talking to the companies thatare around me, and then also
local businesses that we've hadcome in as clients and I usually
ask them is this your firsttime?
Why haven't you ever tried it?
Because at this point, if youhave a website and you're not
running paid search and you'renot doing marketing, I have
questions like why didn't youtry it a while ago?
Danny Gavin (32:48):
and that's usually one of the reasons being an
advocate for diversity indigital marketing.
How do you feel like companiescan better support and amplify
diverse voices in theirmarketing efforts?
Susan Yen (32:58):
it's one of those caution go in that with caution,
like we market people all thetime and we do things for a
reason.
So you can't just do diversityfor the sake of doing diversity,
Because I promise you will knowyour diverse people and your
diverse team members will knowand they'll pick it up and sniff
it out.
So, like any posts that you dothat you're like, oh, happy,
(33:20):
whatever.
Okay, but what is the purposebehind it?
I think being able to providenot just like resources and
platforms and the space for yourteam members to feel
comfortable, Like if you have acompany where it's not very
diverse, that's fine, Acceptthat fact, but don't just do a
hiring for the sake of havingyou know diversity in the
(33:41):
company and also just talk toyour minorities.
And also, that also depends oneach individual.
I'm a person where I'm likeplease have a conversation with
me.
If you're not really sure aboutsomething and you're not really
sure if you should post thatthing or if we should celebrate
this thing, or what effortsshould we put in, then ask that
question.
I'm pretty sure there arecompanies out there and
resources that will help you.
(34:02):
I'm pretty sure there arecompanies out there and
resources that will help you,Like I think there's like DI
companies and they'll tell youhow to.
I don't really know hownecessarily, I know within my
company I'm like okay, these arethe things that I would like to
see for our company is you knowthat when we're posting things,
there's a reason behind it?
Because if we're going to justpost it, then I want us to.
Why are we doing that?
And I want us to have reasonsbehind it, as opposed to just
(34:24):
doing it for the sake of doingit.
And so I think, like providingplatforms where I'm like you
know, I want to go to minorityconferences where there are
women, like black women inmarketing or being an advocate.
How can you guys help me be anadvocate of this?
I think companies need to holdthemselves.
Just accepting that you don'thave diversity is step one, and
(34:47):
accepting that this is wherewe're at now.
But would we like to havediversity?
Sure, Not every single companyis going to have a diverse work
field because, depending onwhere you are located I'm in New
Hampshire I'm probably going tobe the only white person in the
company if I go to mostcompanies, but that's just the
area.
And accepting that fact, butjust asking and communicating
with your diverse team members,or even going out and finding a
(35:09):
company and saying, hey look,this is we'd like to be a more,
we'd like to support thiscommunity a little bit more,
Even within as a company, withinyour neighborhoods.
Is supporting those localbusinesses like supporting those
diverse minority we have thoseholidays for a reason like
support minority businesses.
So that's like if you're gonnado a post, then I hope somewhere
(35:29):
in your blog or something thator donations that you've made to
help those local businesses,those minorities or those women
in minority-owned businesses.
Like you've done that and youare putting kind of we're at a
place in in the world where putyour money where your mouth is
type of a thing, but put yoursupporters doesn't end up being
(35:50):
necessarily needs to be.
Money could just be one of theuh.
My favorite things with withwordstream that we did um in the
past was uh with like fridaysyou can choose something that
you wanted to do and we would goat it.
You can do a soup kitchen umevent, so like have teams go to
soup kitchen.
You can even for um disabilityum individuals.
You there's runs that you cando so to support different
(36:12):
organizations.
So there are ways of doing it.
You just need to honestly justput effort into doing the
research, because they're justsaying that you're gonna do and
just throwing it out there andjust posting it on the internet.
Everyone does that.
I post stuff sometimes that I'mlike it's just there for fluff,
I'm not trying to actually sayanything, but companies really
can do that.
You really need to stand behindevery single post you do and
(36:33):
the brand that you're creating.
Danny Gavin (36:34):
Yeah, I think that's so powerful because it's
very easy to just check boxesand say, okay, we did this, but,
like you said, the people thatit does affect they see past.
Are you really just doing thator just doing it because you
have to, and I think that'sreally important.
So, with all the changes comingwith AI and everything, how do
you feel like people canfuture-proof themselves,
(36:55):
specifically when it comes topaid search?
Susan Yen (36:57):
I have a like-hate relationship with AI currently.
I just went to NADA it's one ofthe biggest auto dealership
conferences with my team and Iwas talking to one of our sales
members, robin, and she wastelling me she's like I have a
really hard time talking toclients because everyone's
asking us if we're doing AI andI'm like, oh, that's funny
because I've got all theconferences I've gone to.
(37:18):
The big headlines is always AIand whatever else which it's
amazing and AI has.
I think we've all we've allalways in paid search have kind
of been using a version of AI.
I actually think I did aLinkedIn post about it today.
We've always been using aversion of AI.
It's just now grown a lot moreand now it's a new shiny toy
(37:40):
that everyone wants to try outand to learn about and I think
that AI can really help us.
I just think we really need tobe careful with the extent of
which we depend on it too much,because I can tell if someone
has written their whole entirething on a chat TVT like that's
an AI or like their ad copiescopies.
(38:01):
You can tell sometimes thatsomeone just copied and pasted
it, because the amount of adcopies that you have to write,
and sometimes because I don'tthink it's it's there quite yet
with certain things, is thingsstart to sound too similar, um,
especially with ad copy andstuff, because it's the same
industry, people are probablygoing to be searching the same
things, but we still need to addthat human aspect of how do we
(38:24):
make this unique to thatindividual, because they don't
necessarily know us as people.
This is the machine and it'shere to assist us, um, in the
things that we do need help with, um, but not necessarily to to
take over and for us to just useit all together.
Like if you're going to launchit.
I tell my team I'm like, ifyou're going to launch a
campaign, yes, use chat gp, it'sgoing to be really great.
(38:47):
But don't use just that.
Go on the website and learnwhat they're.
You know what's on theirwebsite, what's on their content
.
Look around you, I don't know.
I'll be driving.
I see a billboard.
I'm like that is all right,that's a good idea, and I'll,
you know, branch off of that,like using an idea platform, and
I mean there are definitelycertain areas where, like
reporting and stuff like thatdoes make our jobs.
It will make our jobs a loteasier, especially with, like,
(39:09):
the image generations.
Okay, that not so much, not yet.
It's not there yet, becausesome of those images are
definitely questionable, but Ithink it's.
I think it's definitely gettingthere.
But I do want us, as paidsearch people, to definitely
take not.
I think maybe it's because it'sjust such a, but it just sounds
like such a buzzword now, whereit's just everywhere and
(39:30):
everyone's, especially myclients, they're like are we
using a?
And I'm like do you even knowhow?
what that means yeah, I'm like,well, it could be everything and
anything at this point.
What did you learn?
So I always want to ask themlike okay, you're bringing it up
, You're asking me for a reason.
So someone told you that theywere using it.
(39:50):
How did they use it?
Because I need to know thatfirst before I tell you how we
use it.
That's so good, Because I tellthem that we don't really use AI
.
Our team write your ads manually.
And I'm like no, you can tellthem we use AI, but we don't use
solely AI.
We use AI to optimize and tobuild and to read that data and
(40:12):
to help us out formulatesomething that you know will
help us build the strongestcampaign for them.
But it's not our everything alltogether.
So I think it's definitelygoing to be an amazing tool.
It's going to get there alltogether.
So I think it's definitelygoing to be an amazing tool.
It's going to get there.
But I don't want us to forgetjust the talent and the mindset
that we, as humans, still haveand to integrate that together
and not just depend on it toomuch.
Danny Gavin (40:33):
All right.
So before we wrap up, a quicklightning round.
I'm going to mention a topicand you've got to tell me what
your favorite thing is First.
One travel Greece.
And you've got to tell me whatyour favorite thing is First one
travel.
Greece.
I like Greece also.
Okay, food.
Susan Yen (40:48):
Chikuri board.
Danny Gavin (40:54):
What I think that could match Like your background
is very like Chikuri it is.
It makes sense.
Susan Yen (40:59):
If I could be on a tropical island somewhere, that
would be my background at alltimes.
Danny Gavin (41:04):
And if you had a day where you didn't have to
work, what would you do?
What would be your favoritething?
Susan Yen (41:09):
Just sleeping and binge watching TV Phone on, do
not disturb.
Danny Gavin (41:13):
Favorite show.
Susan Yen (41:14):
The Witcher.
Danny Gavin (41:16):
I enjoyed Witcher as well.
Well, susan, thank you so muchfor this awesome talk.
I've learned so many new thingsabout you and we have so many
different things to consider aswell, based on what you spoke
about.
So thank you so much for beinga guest on the Digital Marketing
Mentor and thank you, listeners, for tuning into the Digital
Marketing Mentor.
We'll speak with you next time.
Susan Yen (41:34):
Okay, thank you, danny, it was great.
Great to see you again.
Danny Gavin (41:36):
Thank you for listening to thedmmentorcom and
at thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify orwherever you listen to your
podcasts for more marketing.
Mentor magic.
See you next time.
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