088: The Best of SEO (Part 2): Brand Building, AI, and the Future of Search

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danny Gavin (00:05):
Welcome to the Digital Marketing Mentor.
I'm your host, danny Gavin, andtogether with industry leaders
and marketing experts, we'llexplore the meeting point of
mentorship and marketing.
We'll discover how theseconnections have affected
careers, marketing strategiesand lives.
Now get ready to get human.
Now get ready to get human.

(00:26):
But also supports robust SEOstrategies.
We'll also discuss the synergybetween paid search and SEO, how
strategies can differ acrossvarious audiences and industries
, and what the future holds forSEO.
So, without further ado, let'sdive into these insightful

(00:56):
conversations and discover howto maximize visibility and
results.
You're also passionate about aconcept I've not considered
integrity within AI contentmarketing.
Can you elaborate on this?

Julia McCoy (01:07):
So that kind of came from just spending 10 years
in content marketing, gettingto see the inside of companies
with you know, sometimes theirweekly budget was $100,000 for
content and it was insane to seehow literally some of the
biggest companies on the webwere built through content, how
literally some of the biggestcompanies on the web were built
through content.

(01:28):
And so what I got to see wasthose were some of the toughest
clients we had because of theemphasis put on fact-checking
these companies.
Their reputation was made orbroken based on the integrity of
their facts, and these werecited companies that were often
linked to by tens of thousandsof other publishers, and so

(01:50):
these other publishers relied onthese websites to publish
accurate content.
And that I'll tell you.
That is the reason why I didnot adapt to AI for about eight
months, because I saw ChatGPTand I was like, ooh, this would
ruin the reputation of all of myclients, because even OpenAI
they're pretty upfront.
They said when they launchedChatGPT there is no source of

(02:13):
truth in this AI.
It literally just predicts,detects, generates.
It's not checking for facts.
So at least they were honest.
They said that from thebeginning there's no source of
truth, but when I saw that, Iwas just like oh, I cannot use
this, I cannot recommend it.
You're better off doing ithumanly.
Whenever I did adapt, it wasbecause one of the main features

(02:35):
in RankWell and Consonant Scalewas fact-checking.
And this feature has even gottenbetter to a point where
RankWell builds a database ofthousands of individual pages
and it's looking through all ofthose pages to find the most
accurate like sometimes it'sjust like one or two or three
facts to put into that articleand then that gives you this

(02:58):
incredibly data rich, alsoaccurate, article to publish.
But you've used AI to save, youknow, seven to eight hours, so
you're saving time.
But you're also publishingintegrity-based content, which
is fact-based content.
You can't really have integrityas a publisher without accuracy
of facts.
So that idea that I'm able tobe a proponent of is a pretty

(03:23):
big one, and it's interestingbecause late last year I was at
a conference with some hugecompanies Deloitte, dell,
microsoft.
Their communications teams wereall in that room in Austin,
texas and they were emphasizingthe importance of accuracy and
data security and privacy.
Those things are important too,and that's all as well in the

(03:45):
company I work with.
If you upload any data in yourproject that doesn't actually
get shared out into any othercustomer project or even the LLM
.
So it's really great to be ableto be on the side of this scary
industry of AI but still beable to recommend something that
is integrity-based.

While using RankWell as part of content at
scale?
How necessary is it to have awriter to actually manage the
tool, or could just a regularSEO analyst do it?

We just launched something called the Unified
Editor, where you're inside thiseditor that's so simple and
easy to understand.
You even get a checklist of thethings you're missing to add
into the article.
You could definitely havewhether it's like even an intern
or a marketing assistant or allthe way up to a founder that
wants to run it themselves, butthey've never gotten familiar

(04:40):
with SEO.
What we've done is we've reallyremoved that barrier to entry,
making it easy for anyone anyoneto open RankWell, and I love
that because you know, contentwas never easy.
The world I came from like you.
Just you had to have years ofexperience before you knew what
content should look like, how towrite it, how to publish it
looking like that, then how toanalyze it.

(05:01):
So I love that.
The tool is this user levelagnostic, where you can really
jump in at any point and getstraight into using it.

Do you recommend agencies who use RankWell to be
very transparent with theirclients and be like, hey, we are
using AI, or do you feel likeit's so good that it's like
what's the point?

I spoke about this at an SEO conference and it was
Brighton SEO's first statesideconference and I've written
about it on Search Engine Land.
There's a lot of opinions inSEO and the opinions usually
favor you need to attribute theAI.
I am on the contrary side.
I came from 10 years of doingcontent with over 100 writers

(05:40):
and those writers never gotattributed.
They basically forfeited theircopyright.
They were like okay, you'll payme a check.
Okay, I forfeit all rights tocopyright.
That was how that worked.
And so now I'm like hmm, are wegoing to give the AI credit
when we never gave the humanwriter?
So just if your content ishumanly checked and it's good

(06:01):
content, I don't think youshould attribute the AI.
That's where I'm at with it.

So as we move into WordPress at Optage, we've been
big proponents of WordPress asa website platform for a very
long time.
As you know, it frequently getsbrushed off as being a basic
site platform for beginners andbloggers, and certainly not
something for large enterpriselevel businesses, like we spoke
about a couple minutes ago.
What is it that you like somuch specifically as it relates
to enterprise-level businesssites?

Shelly Fagin (06:28):
So WordPress for me.
I love the flexibility of it,and there's a lot of bad
WordPress sites out there.
Do not get me wrong, but it'sall about what you do with it.
I think that determines if it'sgoing to be good for you or if
it turns to be something not sogreat.
It's super flexible and it canbe as flexible as you need it to

(06:49):
be, especially at theenterprise level.
You can make it headless andyou can use it just for people
to manage their content, and ifyou have a big development team
who wants to have the JavaScriptand React-driven pages and pull
in data from places that theydon't necessarily want to store

(07:09):
in WordPress, you can do that aswell.
So there's a lot of flexibility.
The other good thing I would sayis the economy in WordPress is
huge, and by that I mean if youever need people to help you,
you're always going to be ableto find people that understand
WordPress, and just becausesomeone knows a certain type of

(07:32):
code they know PHP yes, they candefinitely go in and do
tinkering around and do thingsfor you in WordPress, but I
would still prefer someone whoreally understands the ecosystem
of WordPress.
But I would still prefer someonewho really understands the
ecosystem of WordPress.
They understand the intricaciesof it and whether or not the

(07:55):
code that you're doing or thecustomization could potentially
be harmful or it could break ina future update.
I think it really is good thatif you're working in a CMS
update, I think it really isgood that if you're working in a
CMS, someone really reallyunderstands how it works,
because it's not about buildingfor the now but thinking about
the future as well, because it'sdefinitely not fun to have to

(08:17):
come back and clean up a sitethat has been used and abused
and overly customized over theyears and then suddenly it's
really slow.
And oh, wordpress is WordPressas well.
So I see that a lot.

So, yeah, Talking about slowness, which I know
this isn't the point, but do youhave any favorite WordPress
plugins that you recommend?
I'm sure you have a list.

Right, I do Obviously so.
On the SEO side, I've alwaysused Yoast.
Yoast does a really great job.
I also use RankMath as well.
They have some really coolstuff.
It really depends on the site,but I always prefer Yoast.
For me, I always say the lessplugins the better, but there
are certain things that belongin a plugin that don't

(09:03):
necessarily belong in a theme.
You really need to know whenyou use a plugin for something
and when you don't.
I love, is it WP Rocket or isit WP Rocket?

Yeah, I think it is WP Rocket yeah.

I started to get their names all mixed up.
That's okay, sikuri.
I would say hands down, becauseno one wants a hacked WordPress
site.
Wordpress isn't an easy hack,but unfortunately, because it's
the biggest CMS, it becomes themost targeted and the most
vulnerable, and because it'sopen source, that makes it even
more so.
The plugins and the themes thatyou use on it can make it

(09:39):
vulnerable if you don't knowwhat you're doing.
So, even if you do, I wouldsuggest you have a security
plugin and Zucuri, because if itdoes get hacked, they'll
actually help you clean it up.
So, yeah, those are my go-tos,and then the rest really depends
on what the site is and whatwe're building, what we're

(10:01):
looking to accomplish, but I'm alittle lean on the plugin side.

Yeah, no, I don't blame you, and I also think a
good hosting provider is alsoimportant, 100% Like Kinsta or
the WP engines out there.
They're a little more expensive, but at least from the security
side and speed it's definitelyworth it.

Oh yeah, you definitely don't want to host
Gator or any of those type ofmass hosts.
I've always had dedicatedvirtual environment.
For that reason, definitelyhosts.

We can leave our host Gator WordPress disaster
stories for another episode.
Exactly, is there a platformthat you prefer to avoid when it
comes to SEO?

So it's usually my recommendation If you can't
self-host, I would stay away.
I do like Shopify, actually forEcommerce.
I think it's great for that,but usually, with that said, I
usually don't recommend Blogger,blogspot or any of those types
of Wix or something that, eventhough Wix has improved a lot as

(11:04):
well.
But for me, I like that freedom, that flexibility of being able
to customize and scale and growthe site.
Even though I might not need itnow, the client might need it
in the future.
I like to set them up to befuture-proof and that future to
be as easy as possible.
I've migrated a lot of sitesfrom platforms that didn't have

(11:27):
that flexibility and it's anightmare.
Your traffic usually Well.
When I do the migration,traffic doesn't usually suffer,
but most migrations people cometo me because someone botched
their migration.
So most companies do see dropsin traffic, sometimes for
several months, to be quitehonest.

(11:48):
So that's never a good thing.
So probably something that hasthat freedom, that flexibility.
Open source is always good forthat, but then it comes with
trade-offs.

Mandy Politi (12:00):
The content we generate.
It serves a purpose.
We're trying to achievesomething.
So optimizing it for SEO meansthat you are making it the best
possible version of what you canactually deliver to serve this
purpose.
So if we're writing a piece ofcontent like an informational
blog post about anything abouttiles, about plumbing we want
somebody to read it and get somevalue out of it.

(12:23):
So the idea is, we optimize thepiece of content to serve the
purpose of satisfying the searchintent of the user, who is
going to land on the page andthey're going to spend their
time reading it.
So for me, this is why it's soimportant to optimize, because I
think that many people optimizethinking that they're going to
rank, but that's not the actual.

(12:44):
That's the journey, it's notthe actual destination, because
you are going to rank.
But then what are you trying toachieve?
You want to get people in andyou want people to stay, and you
want these people to find yourcontent useful enough to stay on
the page and get some value outof it.
So for me, if you change theperspective and think that I'm
not optimizing to rank, but I'moptimizing to create something
that's really good and is goingto be useful for the users.

(13:06):
That's the value of SEO.
That's why you optimize it.
At least, that's how I see it.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
We understand that's importantto write for SEO, write for
users.
So what are the effects thatcan come from good SEO and bad
SEO?
So why don't we go with thegood first, like what happens
when you do it right?

Well, you get more users in, you get your
brand known.
You get people to interact withyour brand and your website,
you may increase your sales.
You provide value, which is notalways directly linked to sales
, but it's also in terms ofproviding information services
anything that a website sells orwhat they're trying to achieve

(13:52):
and you're helping people toassociate the brand with a
useful hub of information or aplace where they can find what
they're looking for, be itproduct services or just purely
like informational content.

And then what about bad SEO?

Well bad SEO it can be.
I perceive it as two differentways.
You can have like black hat SEO, which means that you get
people in thinking that they'regoing to find something but in
the end, finding something else,they get like frustrated and
they exit the site straight away.
Or you can have bad SEO in theterms of you try to optimize but
you don't do it really well andyou end up with an extremely

(14:26):
complicated piece of contentthat is really difficult to
actually read.
It doesn't really serve thepurpose, it doesn't answer the
user questions.
Both have disadvantages, ofcourse, mainly in the brand and
the website, because, slowly,well, if people go in and then
they leave, obviously you you'renot going to keep your
performance, you're not going tostay where you are and, second,

(14:47):
people are not going to reallyidentify your brand or website
as the place to be for whatthey're looking for.
So it goes both ways.
If you're asking me, I thinkthat both are equally bad, like
the Black Hat SEO practices andalso optimizing in a way that
it's not putting the user in themiddle, in the center of what
you're doing.
So both can actually havenegative impact.

(15:09):
And something else that I did,which I think that sometimes,
again, if you get really busy,you forget to do.
Is I actually go back on thecontent that we publish?
I go back and I monitor, Icheck.
After a month, two months, I goto see is it indexed?
Does it rank for the terms thatI wanted it to rank?
Perhaps it ended up ranking forsomething else, and then I use

(15:30):
this insight to re-optimize it.
So for me, it's very importantwhen you publish a piece of
content, you don't just let itthere to leave.
You go back and you check, andI think that that was the most
important part, because it gaveme an understanding of how what
I wrote was interpreted bysearch engines, especially using
Google Search Console, andseeing, like do I rank for this

(15:50):
term that I wanted to target?
And if not, you re-optimize,but you don't wait until six
months or the next audit to doso.
For me, this was a very, veryimportant part going back and
reviewing the performance.
And something really useful thatI learned from this was, for
example, don't be afraid tocreate longer content, because
you think that if, for example,you add a section below the

(16:12):
folder below, it's not going toto rank for this specific term
if the content makes sense inthe total and now, especially,
that google picks up uh snippetsof uh like from below the
folder not necessarily doesn'ttake you necessarily to the top
of the page.
You can still perform reallywell for that, even if it's not
targeted directly on themetadata, by following a very
specific structure.
But I learned that by writinglonger blog posts and then going

(16:34):
back and really fast seeingthat, okay, now this performs
for this sub topic that Iincluded, although I haven't
targeted on the metadata orreally early on the text.
So how did that happen?
And this helped me to generatefaster similar content.
So I always recommend to goback.
I think that was the biggesttrial and error of seeing what
performs and how I'm going tocreate with the right or

(16:56):
something that's going to bevery good, and then going back
to what was published andreviewing performance after a
couple of months just to makesure that it performs for what I
want it to perform and, if not,to quickly re-optimize it and
not just go and do that after ayear.

Mike King (17:10):
We're trying to optimize for a standard organic
search or standard web search orwhatever you want to call it.
It's more about how relevant isthe entirety of the page to
that query?
And then, of course, you've gotthe authority metrics.
Do you have the links?
And then, of course, you've got, you know, the authority
metrics, do you have the links?
And then another big component,which has been reinforced by the
leak and also the DOJanti-trust trial testimony, is

(17:33):
that the user behavior and howthey interact with your page
matters a whole lot.
Are you driving clicks?
Are people staying on your siteafter they've clicked through,
so on and so forth.
But as far as that, as itcompares to AI overviews, ai
overviews are driven by what'scalled retrieval, augmented

(17:54):
generation, which is a paradigmwhere you're combining a large
language model with the searchengine, and so the way that
works is that it breaks yourpages down into chunks and then
it looks for the most relevantchunk to the keyword and also
the prompt that they're using inthe background.
So really what that's about islike where's the most relevant

(18:15):
paragraph or most relevantsentence to what the user is
looking for?
So I think of that as kind oflike a micro optimization,
whereas for web search is moreof like a macro optimization for
the page.
So they don't necessarilyconflict with each other.
It's just that doing it for AIoverviews is going to be way

(18:36):
more granular than what you'redoing for the standard search.
And then the other thing with AIoverviews is that it also uses
the structured data heavily, sonot just like the individual
structured data that you have onyour page, but also the
structured data that Google isbuilding across the web and
about the world and so on.
There are going to be instanceswhere it's just a fact that

(18:57):
Google has seen across the weband corroborated it and you
can't necessarily change it,because that fact is like all
across the web, you can't justchange it on your site.
But when they're using contentthat is only found on a handful
of sites, then you have thatopportunity to change what that
answer is going to be.
And appear in those citationsto the AI, these advancements

(19:22):
that Google has made that havechanged the science of how
search works.
So of course I want to know howit works, and by design, google
has to not tell me how it works, and I'm smart enough to figure
out how it works, so of courseI'm going to share that because
it enriches me, of course, formy business, but it also

(19:45):
satisfies this deep curiositythat I have about this
technology and allows me tocontribute in ways that then I
get back even more informationfrom other people in this space
who are also just researchingthis from a slightly different
angle.
So it's biting the hand thatfeeds, but it's also like I have
to do it.

Are there any traditional SEO tactics or SEO
work that you feel people shouldstop doing or maybe focus less
on?

Mike King (20:14):
Yeah, the volume game and I say this
understanding that the volumegame is a large part of my
monthly recurring revenue.
But people really need to focuson quality and the content that
they're creating, and thenquality and the links that
they're built.
So when I say quality again, Imentioned it a bit before like
Google is giving more value tolinks that drive traffic, links

(20:37):
from pages that drive trafficand pages that are ranking well,
and so you need to focus moreon getting your links from there
, and you don't necessarily needa thousand of them to perform,
whereas right now, most peopleare like, okay, well, that site
has a hundred links from DA40s,I'm going to get 105 links from
DA46s, or something like that,and you don't have to do that.

(21:00):
Like you're the noise on theweb that that's creating is
exactly what Google doesn't want, right?
And then Google is alsocrawling less, indexing less, so
you need to focus on makingcontent.
That's actually great that theydo want to crawl and do want to
index, rather than justspinning up a million pages and

(21:22):
being like, well, if each ofthese pages gets two visits a
month, we're printing money.

Britney Muller (21:27):
All of my prized gems in the search space
and in marketing that have stoodthe test of time are because I
was able to really deep dive ona particular topic and deliver
more qualitative content thanquantitative every time.

(21:49):
And it's interesting because Iwas recently talking to a bunch
of DMOs, so destinationmarketers, who are pressured to
do this volume over quality andI was able to give some very
real examples of these thingswouldn't have stood the test of
time if we took that approach.
Granted, it doesn't work foreveryone, but I still get calls

(22:11):
from clients from over eight,nine years ago who I set up on
this piece of content that hassnowballed over time.
Those evergreen pieces aren'tgoing to be your low-quality,
high-quantity work.

Yeah, I think the trick is, for how do you sell
that to clients?
I know myself.
We were up against anothercompany recently on a proposal
for a specific SEO and from ourperspective it was more about
quality.
But the other firm they were upagainst was all about quantity
and they wanted to go with thatother firm because of the

(22:50):
quantity aspect.
So it's interesting.

Britney Muller (22:53):
It's so interesting and maybe I mean
some people can find a balanceand do that well, but I sort of
also think of it as likebusyness isn't a good metric of
success, right, and being reallystrategic in your efforts and
also just seeing so many effortsget such a high splash because

(23:13):
of the strategic nature of it.
I think of the yard that createdthe celebrity jet emission
research that went completelyviral.
I mean, they had to.
Their legal team was under firebecause of it.
They kind of stood their ground.
It fit with their values right.
They're very environmentallyconscious, they want to work

(23:35):
with companies that care aboutthe environment, and it ended up
working really really well intheir favor, and now they have
every backlink you could everdream of, which is again just
like a residual benefit.
But I think of cases and Ithink as marketers we have
gravely undervalued PR.
There are so many ways we canbe savvy with planting different

(23:58):
stories in the press if we knowwhat we're doing, and so that's
also kind of been a tool I'veenjoyed using a lot lately, yeah
.

And digital PR link building has undoubtedly
evolved since Siege's founding.
Can you tell me what your takeon its role as an SEO and
content strategies now, in 2024,especially in the world of AI?

Ross Hudgens (24:18):
Yeah, we're calling it product-led digital
PR.
It's sort of our most recentsignificant strategy shift and
our thought process there isgetting, if they don't have it
already, first-party data andputting it across the content
ecosystem, not just like oneasset you promote, but, if I
have it, we have a data study oncontent marketing trends and

(24:41):
then we use that data across ablog post on what is link
building.
Like 63% of companies are usinglink building.
Just making that up, but thatmakes that piece more unique to
us, differentiated in a world ofai, uh, claude or shat gbt
can't pump that out in fiveseconds.
So doing that kind of datafirst stuff that would be good,

(25:03):
independent of whether or notyou did or seo existed and
hopefully can truly build abrand and and that's a big part.
And yeah, we're doing morespread out digital PR.
We're not doing like 19 linkbuilding assets.
It's like what is one highleverage thing Not always, but
some people are more than thatbut for us it's like one big

(25:25):
trends report a year.
It just makes sense and I thinkthat does make sense for a lot
of companies generally.
So that's high leverage, evenif links didn't matter.
That probably is worthwhilejust from a brand building
standpoint.
So that's sort of what we'releaning into, while still
thinking links matter.
We're still kind of like dothings that make that thoughtful
, but it's more about it's gotto be really high leverage, it

(25:48):
seems.

Batli Joselevitz (25:49):
I could go into like a black hole of just
researching and seeing what arethe latest trends and techniques
, because it can get verytechnical as well, like it's
creative, but there's a lot oftechnology that goes into that
that's still not even developed.
So I still feel like that'salmost like it's in its pioneer
days or the tail end of it.

(26:11):
I'm not too sure, but being apart of that story in some
regard and just being in theloop, I think is really good and
it gives an advantage for thefuture, because there is a
future in it.
We're seeing it more and moreevery day, especially with other
platforms like TikTok, whereit's obviously very visual and

(26:32):
the search results page beingmore dynamic.
With the type of informationthat's portrayed.
You don't just see web pagesanymore.
It can be events listed out,businesses listings, having a
really good idea of how can wemake content that's rich content
and not just run of the milllike here's an article, because,

(26:52):
yes, that's still important,that always will be.
That's a foundation.
But to be competitive andreally think outside the box,
you have to see the full pictureand how to stand out from the
crowd.

So this might be an oversimplification, but is it
fair to say the more youunderstand about your audience,
the greater your chance ofsuccessfully marketing to them.
Can you add to that statement?

Sarah Presch (27:15):
One of my recent talks and the talks that I'm
going to be doing in Croatia onThursday, we'd look into, you
know, cognitive biases and, asmuch as we like to think that
we're, not, every single humanin the world is biased.
I'm biased, you're biased,everybody's biased, and there's
nothing that we can really doabout it.
But world is biased.

(27:36):
I'm biased, you're biased,everybody's biased, and there's
nothing that we can really doabout it.
But by understanding the waypeople think and what's actually
going on behind the scenes, itcan help us do a much better job
.
Like I'm probably gonna go alittle bit off on the tangent
now, so I apologize no, it'sgood.
One of the things I'm going tobe talking about that I haven't
actually talked about before issomething called cyberchondria,
and that is a mix of cyber andhypochondria and it's an actual.

(27:59):
It basically means that whenpeople are obsessed with looking
up symptoms online, you knowcomes a worst case scenario and
then panic about it.
You'd call it the Munchauseneffect If it wasn't online.
You know the people who panicabout you know getting sick and
do it for attention and stufflike that.
But online information andonline medical content is not
helping the situation whatsoever, and having access to forums is

(28:20):
not helping whatsoever.
And then you have to go and seeyou know all of the SERPs
Reddit's at the top, quora's atthe top and it's kind of
unbelievable because you'rethinking this is going to make
things like this so much worse.
And the more SEOs just createcontent without thinking about
these kind of things and justbulk upload things because I

(28:43):
know there's SEOs out there whowork on medical content without
being medical experts themselvesit just makes it so much worse
and you actually like it's beenlinked to um, excess health care
, deaths and stuff like that, soit's got really, really serious
consequences and yet we shouldbe doing something about it, or
at least understanding it yeah,that's very important,

(29:04):
especially like now with, likegoogle's generative ai at the
top, and I know like that justcompounded it because I, you,
because I don't have anyexamples offhand, but some of
the stuff that was coming outthere, specifically with
healthcare and medical, waspretty bad.
The other side effect of it aswell is I don't know how common
they are in the US, but I know,for example, the NHS in the UK
has these AI-driven symptomcheckers that they use and

(29:29):
instead of encouraging peoplejust to, you know, talk about
the symptoms that they're havingor the not so serious illness
that they're suffering from, itactually puts symptoms inside
people's heads and then peoplestart to worry more.
And you see that online when,for example, they get a featured
snippet with something moreserious in that they didn't
necessarily go in thinking thatthey had this serious disease,

(29:53):
but they came out thinking of itand came out worrying about it.
And then just people's anxietygoes overload.
People go to the doctors.
It takes more healthcareresources.
You know it's pretty crazy.

Yeah, definitely a topic we don't talk about, but
yeah, it's really sort of likethe dark side of SEO, right, and
the problems that it can cause.
Really, it's sort of like thedark side of seo, right, and and
the problems that it can cause.
Talking about cognitive biaseswhich of the cognitive biases is
the most difficult to work withor market to and why?

Sarah Presch (30:18):
I think confirmation bias because
there's no real way to kind ofhack it per se, because I know
when you talk about things likeavailability bias, there's ways
to.
You know people work with themost recent information, so
therefore you have to make surethat your brand is the most
recent thing that people hear ofand you have to make sure that
you know you're always making apositive first impression,

(30:38):
whereas confirmation bias is,you know, people don't realize
that they're doing it and whenpeople search for something
online, they're actually lookingfor information that confirms
their existing beliefs.
So if you type in somethinglike one of the examples I had
was is ADHD caused by sugar?
Google will actually feed youback featured snippets and stuff

(30:59):
that proves the point that ADHDis caused by sugar.
As SEOs, people kind of look atthese keywords and they're like
is ADHD caused by sugar?
Perfect, let's make a piece ofcontent about it without
thinking again is this a helpfulkeyword?
Is this a good keyword that wewant to write about?
Is it going to cause danger inthe future to anybody but nobody
knows about it?
Nobody knows what confirmationbias is and it's not part of you

(31:21):
know training for SEOs oranything like that.
So, yeah, I think that's atough one and it's something you
know.

Mordy Oberstein (31:27):
I'm hoping to spread the word about a little
bit more and then hopefully morepeople would have if you're a
designer, what brand means toyou is visual design and tone
and logo and blah, blah, blah.
And to me, like that's notbrand Like but I'm not saying
it's not like it just be beinglike, you know, like an ass hat,
like that's not brand.
Brand to me has to do with the.

(31:48):
It's the intersection, it'sabout it's associative
connection between your identityand your audience's identity
who you are, who your audienceis, what you provide in terms of
who you are and what they need.
And the intersection of that,where you overlap, is brand.
It's what you exude out andwhat's received in by the

(32:10):
audience is brand and that'svery conceptual, it's very
existential.
It's why I like brand and it'svery, very powerful, why I think
SEO is needed.
I think SEO is always neededand, if you can, if you and the
conversation kind of got renewedwith the whole I don't know if
the audience is familiar withthis or not like the whole
Google leaks.
That happened a few months agowhere there was an API call and

(32:33):
all of a sudden the algorithmgot leaked and really get leaked
, but we saw things in thereLike perhaps Google's looking at
mentions across across the web.
So it's not just links, it'show often your brand is being
mentioned.
Or, for example, if people arelike clicking on the web,
clicking on you from from fromresults.
Now, if you're a familiar brand, you'll get more clicks.

(32:54):
So brand now comes in.
So we're kind of renewed thiswhole conversation around brand
and SEO.
But all the old school is no, no, no, brand and SEO have always
been about whatever I'm likeit's, it's super powerful.
Um, because?
Forget all in all of that, theweb itself is fundamentally
changed or changing In myopinion.
You can disagree with me.
I'm not offended.
Half of the things I say arecompletely not true, but I think

(33:17):
this is true.
The web is changing and peopleare looking for something that's
much more connective.
I think you see this withpeople going to TikTok to get
information.
You see this with.
Google didn't pull evilexperience out of its rear end.
It saw a trend because Google'sgot a massive amount of data
where people are looking forthat kind of content.

(33:38):
It goes like that's where we'regoing to go with this thing.
There's a shift to peoplewanting authentic experiences
from their web content.
I think web content has becomemore conversational.
I think brands who, from abrand marketing point of view,
if you're a big brand out there.
If you can be moreconversational, that would do
you well.
They're very hesitant to dothat, which I think is a big

(34:00):
mistake, but fine, if that'swhere the web is going.
They're looking for a much moreauthentic kind of experience.
They're looking, for example, Ithink, not to be nudged into
the conversion right.
So being top of mind becomesmuch more important.
I want autonomy in my buyerjourney.
I don't want to feel like I hita landing page and click here,

(34:26):
buy now, get this now.
That's like 1970s used carcommercial kind of thing.
If I'm looking to have thatcontrol over my buyer journey,
so then me coming to you whenI'm ready becomes much more
important, which is obviously abrand awareness play.
If the entire web is shiftingin this direction which I am a
little bit biased into thinkingthat it is because I do brand
marketing then SEO, ppc, whoeveryou are, you need to understand
brand marketing, because that'swhere the web is going and

(34:49):
forgetting, like you know,diving into the nuanced
implications of that.
It's self-evident if that's thedirection of where the web is
heading, if you're not in linewith that mindset because brand
is a mindset, in my opinionyou're going to get left behind.
So that's why top level, Ithink, is super important for
SEOs.

And then I guess, to dumb it down a bit, what
would be an example of SEO withbrand marketing in mind or SEO
without brand marketing in mind?

I'm an SEO, I don't care what happens on
social media.
Do whatever you want to do onsocial media.
Google doesn't care aboutsocial media.
Okay, google's a moth andGoogle will be attracted to they
will have the largest digitallight.
And if you're getting tractionon social media, people are
sharing your stuff.
They're then maybe you knowmentioning that in an article or
doing a.

(35:35):
Rand Fish has got a great videoabout this, about how, like,
most traffic comes from google.
So I won't be on social becausemost of it comes from google.
Yeah, but you're forgetting thefact that they saw you on
google and then googled you tofind you and find your product
or your service after the fact.
So the traffic may be directlyfrom google but, to borrow
philosophical from aristotle,that's just the material cause.

(35:56):
That's like the immediate side,the immediate cause, like the
actual like.
The immediate cause, like theactual, like efficient cause,
behind the whole thing wasthey've seen you on social.
Social plays a huge role ingetting momentum, getting you
know people, getting to search,doing branded searches for you,
and there's a whole Googlepatent about Google's looking at
branded search.
Google's stupid Like.
If Google knows like people aretyping in Nike shoes, nike

(36:16):
shoes, nike shoes.
There must be a connectionbetween Nike and shoes.
So anytime you're going to seesomething for shoes, we'll rank
Nike Obviously oversimplifyingthat.
But a lot of that brand buildingthat ties into search.
That way comes from doingthings on social, comes from
content marketing practice comesfrom being out there at
conference and gaining momentumand traction and positioning and

(36:39):
having an identity and peopleknowing about you and people
thinking about you a certain wayand then people interacting
with you a certain way.
All of that plays into howpeople go about searching for
you on Google, what they'researching for, how they're
interacting with you on Google.
If they see you on the SERP andthen say, nope, that brand
sucks.
So it comes into play so manyways, but social for me is one

(37:02):
of the biggest, most obviousways that building up your brand
on social, getting that brandmomentum on social positioning
yourself because social is suchan easy way to position your
brand directly and I'm notsaying it's a direct ranking
fact, that's not what I'm sayingDirectly plays a role in what
your SEO momentum will look like.
Also, by the way you see thiswith like big brands, like SEO

(37:23):
is like oh, big brands alwaysrank for everything.
Google's biased towards bigbrands?
They're not biased towards bigbrands.
They just have the biggestdigital light because of the
brand marketing that they'redoing.

So what about the small businesses who don't have
the budget?
And I know you're saying it'snot like it's a ranking factor,
but what do these startups orsmall businesses?
How can they still be effectiveon Google when brand is so
important?

So that's it.
I look at it almost like acomplete opposite, like brand is
the equalizer that helps thesesmall businesses.
If I'm a small business, Idon't necessarily have like a
huge amount of money to, youknow, hire 10 content writers
and five link builders and blah,blah, blah, but I can go to the
local, you know, you know fair,and sell my pies and meet other

(38:06):
people and gain momentum, thattrend that that offline
translates to online.
Right, I met so and so.
Now they link to me.
I met, or I met so and so, andnow, like we're doing a
collaboration together, I'mgoing to do an interview on his
podcast about pie making.
Brand is the equalizer that,without a big budget, still lets
you gain momentum.
Just need to think about it alittle bit differently.

I like that.
Do you have any examples of SEOworking well with brand
marketing?

I don't know if I have a particular example.
I do think, though, one of thethings that you're going to
start, I think, hopefully seeingis like brands, like I was
looking at the other day, youhave like Nike versus New
Balance, and how many AIoverviews are they getting?
So, yes, some of it's going tobe like overlap with organic
results.
Nike is ranking, they get intothe AI overview, but a lot of

(38:53):
what LLMs do is entity based.
If, around the topic, you'rethe known entity, right, so I'm
going to put you in therebecause you're the quantifiable
entity that I'm aware of aroundthis topic.
So that's something where Ifeel like we prime for a case
study about how brand impactsSEO, because all of that LLM
awareness from across the web,it can come from content

(39:16):
distribution I'm not saying itcan't, but it fundamentally
comes from good brand building.
So that would be something Iwould love to see someone do a
case study on that, as, like theAAO read, data becomes a little
bit more mature kind of thing.
Yeah, I agree.

Fay Friedman (39:29):
Some properties will have a larger percentage of
families with children, so thenour ads will reflect that,
where I'm trying to show how theproperty is very family
friendly and has a playground.
Some have a lot of pets, so I'mgoing to show these dog parks.
I really try to do a lot ofanalysis on the demographics of
the property, or sometimes we'retrying to change the

(39:51):
demographics.
Sometimes we have a propertywhere we want to raise rents and
we want to bring in a newdemographic, so I'm going to
change our ads and say, hey, werecently renovated the lobby and
this looks like a five-starhotel and try to use that to
entice a higher incomedemographic.

So, along those lines, with so much competition
in the commercial real estateworld and competition in these
marketing channels, how do youstand out?

It's tough, but I believe it really comes down to
the market research and howgood you are at understanding
your consumer.
The way the traditional ILSswork is everybody throws up
their listing, tries to maketheir pictures look as pretty as
possible and, if it's notworking, offer a special lower
rent, whereas I try to besmarter in trying to, as we said
, understand the people who areapplying and make the process

(40:48):
better for them.
We'll say, let's say, if thisis a demographic where a lot of
people are working, we shouldopen the leasing office on
weekends for tours.
Try to do things differently.
That will appeal to them morethan just price.
Another thing is that we're inthe process of slowly redoing
all of our property websites and, as you mentioned, ev testing.
That's a huge part of it.

(41:09):
It's the user experience, andwe have Hotjar set up to watch
heat maps and watch consumerbehavior on the websites, and
that's a key part of it.
I recently saw a LinkedIn postfrom I believe it was Brady
Newman, somebody who's likereally smart in the real estate
marketing space, and he wastalking about how, on e-commerce
, you want to buy your websiteand you buy the dress In real

(41:32):
estate.
It's like I want to buy a dress.
Okay, fill out this application.
Pay us a deposit.
We'll see if we can give youthe dress.
We have to think about it.
Okay, fill out this application.
Pay us a deposit.
We'll see if we can give youthe dress.
We have to think about it.
Okay, come back in let's see ifthe dress fits you.
Oh, sorry, the dress is notavailable.
We can give you a differentdress, and that was such a great
comparison to how real estateis really behind in the
e-commerce world which I'm usedto.
So that's really somethingwe're trying very hard to do is

(41:54):
is to bring real estate closer,to make the process smoother,
more seamless, moreuser-friendly.

And that fits so well with my next question.
As we move more to SEO when itcomes to the transition from
e-commerce to commercial realestate, was your approach to SEO
the same, or did you have torethink it from the start?

I did have to rethink it.
It was refreshingly easier butin some ways harder Because, as
I mentioned, the ILSs are alwaysgoing to have the top spots
Apartmentcom, Zillowrentcomthey're always going to have the
top spots in Google for thehigh competitive terms.
But there's so much room withthe more granular, long tail

(42:37):
keywords and the ways thatyou're targeting a specific
demographic and, in a way, thoseare the higher converting terms
, you know, because they'relower down in the funnel.
So I feel like that's my sweetspot.
I did have to rethink things alot, but it's a lot more
gratifying.
It's a lot.
The success is quicker once youfigure something out.
I'm not competing with ILSs,you know, that's it.

(42:58):
I'm not competing with them.
I'm just trying to find ways towork smarter, not harder.
I think that there are a lot ofSEOs that are like no, no, chat
GPT, don't ever use it.
We use it, we embrace it.
And there's actually a memberof my team who started using it
right away and I love theinitiative.
Like before I even startedusing it, she came to me like

(43:20):
hey, I did some really coolstuff with chat GPT.
Can I use it?
I'm like sure, this is awesome.
So I love when they takeinitiative like that and it was
great and we're using it, we'veintegrated into our processes.
I think that, in general, it'snot going anywhere.
It's only getting smarter, andthe SEOs and the content
marketers and the people who aregoing to survive are the ones
who are integrating AI andChatsHPT into their work and

(43:41):
come get with smarter decisionsbecause of it.
Like, if you try to fight it, Ithink if you say like, don't
use it, it's the devil, it'severybody else's use.
So I would say rather, let'sembrace it and figure out ways
to use it and make us smarterand quicker and better.
I'm not going to say wedefinitely have some content

(44:02):
that we write completely fromscratch, and there's a lot of
content that we say we throw itinto ChatGPT, we edit it, we fix
it and it's good.
Google says that they don'tlike ChatGPT content.
I want to see how they'retracking it.
I don't know.

Wil Reynolds (44:18):
Winning people, is it bro?
It hit me like a ton of brickswhen I took over our marketing.
I'm like, wow, our traffic fromLinkedIn is dog shit.
And everybody says, oh, butthey're not incentivizing you to
send traffic off platform.
And I'm like, oh, no, no, no,no, no.
I'm getting three times theamount of traffic from LinkedIn
that we did back in October andSeptember.

(44:39):
How did that happen?
I completely changed the waythat we did content.
It wasn't search first and thenpost it on LinkedIn and see if
anybody cares.
It was post on LinkedIn first,see if anybody cares, then write
from your heart and thenslightly tweak the post a bit to
try to get some searchvisibility, if you want.
But my goal was always to.
I was using Google as a proxyto get to people and now I'm

(45:01):
using social as the directpeople themselves and I'm saying
maybe the proxy and all thejumping around hoops that I do
is watering down me coming upwith actual content that the
humans want to read and getvalue from.
So maybe I should just writethe stuff the humans want to get
and see how it plays out and sofar this year it.
And see how it plays out, andso far this year it's been an
interesting freaking test and Ican't wait to share the data
with people because it's my owndata, so I don't have to worry

(45:21):
about it being client stuff orwhatever you know.

Yeah well, it's been a pleasure watching your
growth on social because I knowfor a while I remember I don't
remember if it was a couple ofyears ago, but it was like you
had this whole traveling kind oflike showing off why do I need
to do that?
So I felt like ever since thatpoint you pulled yourself back,
but I feel like now you'repushing yourself forward, but in
the right way, right, by beingthat educational source, making

(45:47):
people ponder, making peoplethink and really adding that
value not just to the directpeople around you but also to
the industry at large.

Wil Reynolds (45:54):
Yeah Well thank you for that.
But I will tell you, man, Imissed a lot of stuff in that
time.
And it's really been joyous forme to get back into following
people like Cyrus and peoplelike Lily Ray and all that,
because now I'm starting to seethings that are making me think
differently.
But I had extracted myself sofar out that it kind of hurt a
little bit the way that I.

It made me happier , but it also hurt my ability to
see our industry in certainways too you know this term
might be new to some of ourlisteners, but what is AIO and
do you think this will eliminateSEO?

So, first of all, I don't think it will eliminate
SEO, but I do think it willchange SEO forever.
I coined this back with ourfounder in January 2023.
And it was just tied to theidea we need to give writers a
new series of steps, and so AIOwas like the new career, the new
job role, and it's since beenin hundreds of job listings and

(46:49):
I even see copywriters using itin their LinkedIn headlines and
it's this idea of artificialintelligence optimization and
you basically step into the roleof the optimizer of the AI
machine, and that role isincredibly valuable.
It's going to get more valuableas time goes on and I think the
roles there will look different.
We're seeing like AI officer,and now Google even has AI

(47:13):
overviews as part of search.
They've hijacked AIO.
I like to say I came up with itfirst, but anyway, that's a side
point, but it's definitelyhelping writers see we need to
get in the seat of governing theAI and optimize that content
versus SEO content is me openinga Word doc and writing from

(47:34):
scratch, taking that into a setof tools, optimizing it, which
is a completely backwards,time-wasting process.
Now, when you have a processlike AIO because of artificial
intelligence, I've also heardyou use the word future-proofing
SEO.
What does this mean?
Is AIO the future-proof versionof SEO?

(47:54):
I would say think aboutfuture-proofing SEO.
A few months ago, my answerwould have looked different, but
since we've seen the AIoverviews have such turbulence,
you know they scaled back the AIoverviews completely.
So there's like a hugepercentage now that won't show
up in search because you know wewere getting very unsafe
answers on things related tosituations that touched your

(48:17):
life medical finance, soGoogle's like uh-oh, we're going
to be in trouble here.
Scale that back.
So I think that this idea ofusing AI and optimizing the
content output and puttingyourself in the driver's seat it
will last, no matter whatGoogle looks like.
But what we need to remember isthat Google itself is in this

(48:40):
place of so much volatility andthe best thing you could do is
use the AIO approach, get in thedriver's seat of AI, save tons
of time, get way more efficientat content, but really build a
brand.
Think about a volume of contentlinks to all your content and
really build that up, becausethat is what will last versus oh

(49:03):
, how do I get ahead of all theGoogle changes, which is going
to be a game that will.
The rules of that game arealways changing, thanks Google.
So that's how I would approachthat.

Nick LeRoy (49:14):
But I think to your point.
There's kind of two things thatI felt like took me a long time
to learn and arguably I'm stilllearning.
One is just because it's on theinternet doesn't mean that it's
true.
I mean the amount of thingsthat I had done for my websites
and client websites because Iread it on somewhere else, I
just assumed that theseindividuals are smarter than me

(49:36):
and then they didn't have thatpositive correlation.
A lot of what I have learned inmy career is truly test, try,
measure, repeat.
The other part is like I said.
So one is just kind of like nottrusting everything that you do
.
But I think the other thing,too is maybe less so today, but
when I started, at least, therewas a lot of information

(49:58):
paralysis.
I spent so much time readingwhat other people are doing that
I didn't necessarily act on itbecause it felt like I was so
overwhelmed with this personthinks this, but these five
people argued that this persondid that, it did that and it was
like I get so caught up readingthe message boards all day long
that I wasn't doing SEO, and Ithink that's kind of what social

(50:18):
media is today.
A lot of us, including myself attimes I get caught into it.
We're on LinkedIn, we're onTwitter or X and we'd rather
banter back and forth about SEOsemantics instead of going into
our sites and trying to dosomething just a little bit
better.
We are in a world where there'san SOP for everything.
I can have a book and acheckbox for you to do SEO, but

(50:41):
I can't teach you to be hungryand to want to learn and to try
to get better.
So if that's you and you havethe ability to tell your story,
display that curiosity, I thinkthat's going to be your biggest
benefit.
And then the other two thingswhich I feel like are just kind
of like sub-bullets 99 and 100after the first 97, which is

(51:04):
curiosity and passion isobviously the tactical things,
assuming you're not startingfrom scratch.
But even if you are, start upyour website.
I bought nickleroycom back in2008 because somebody on Twitter
told me you should own your owndomain and then I could build
my own site.
Turned into like wow, I coulddo black hat stuff too and not

(51:27):
get in trouble and I'm notcausing any issues for a client
Learning hunger.
And then we talked quite a bitjust about that communication.
Again, I can't stress enoughunless your goal is truly to sit
in the back and white label andyou want to just do the work
and you don't have ambitions toget above a certain level, then

(51:48):
you're going to have tocommunicate, You're going to
have to figure it out.
So you don't have to be amazing, but be passionate, learn those
hard skills and communicate,communicate, communicate.
If you can get those threethings down.
You know I've been saying thisa lot, but it's like you are
instantly within like the top10% of all SEOs, because not
many SEOs can do all of that,nor do they want to.

In addition to SEO for Lunch, what are some of the
best publications you wouldrecommend for SEOers to stay up
to date in the industry?

Nick LeRoy (52:17):
Yeah, so I love Aleda's learningseoio.
That is literally the default,so I send everybody there,
whether they just heard theacronym SEO or they consider
themselves the world's best SEOleader in the world.
It's a great opportunity justto go through, really just
polish some of the knowledgethat you have Selfishly.

(52:38):
I have my own newsletter, so,like I said, the SEO for Lunch.
But Aleda Solis also has agreat newsletter.
There's quite a few othersSteve Toth has one, eli Schwartz
there's so many other peoplethat have these newsletters, and
I think newsletters are the newversion of blogging, so I'm a
big fan of signing up for those.

(52:59):
The only caveat and I mentionedthis earlier is just make sure
that you are balancing the timereading about SEO and making
sure that you're doing it,because nothing can replace
actually getting your handsdirty and learning it.
But those are really the bigthings that I'm telling people

(53:19):
to do.
And then the other thing isbecause I haven't said this
enough is build your network.
Ask people for a virtual coffee.
I've not met another SEO thatisn't happy, if not excited, to
tell you about their SEO storyand what they learned, and
you'll be amazed.
You'll have this virtual coffeewith somebody, and it might be
five years later and they mighthire you.

(53:41):
You might hire them.
You might be doing a contract,you might be interviewing them.
There's so many opportunities.
This industry is so small.
Reach out, become friends ifyou can.
And give that's the other thingtoo.
Just give as much as you can,because it will come back around
, but everybody hates it if youjust come and say buy my links.

(54:05):
You're gonna have tocommunicate, you're gonna have
to figure it out, so you don'thave to be amazing, but be
passionate, learn those hardskills and communicate,
communicate, communicate.
If you can get those threethings down, I've been saying
this a lot, but it's like youare instantly within the top 10%
of all SEOs, because not manySEOs can do all of that, nor do

(54:27):
they want to.

You're very active on LinkedIn.
You're often sharinginteresting insights and finds
relevant to the industry almostdaily.
As many view LinkedIn as a jobsearch platform and not really
the professional social mediaplatform it truly is.
How do you think about yourapproach to how you communicate
on the platform and the type ofcontent that you share?

Chris Long (54:46):
Yeah.
So I think it's simple.
I try to share the content thatI will be interested in and I
think that really trying tothink of like, hey, what do I
wish someone had told me downthe line, right?
So like if I find a certaincool, if I find a certain tool
or a certain technique or have away of communicating SEO, I
think some of the mostinteresting ones are, yes, like

(55:06):
obviously, hey, these are thetechnical SEO ones.
These are also, I also like,the ones about here's how you
communicate SEO right, screen ascreen recording, use the screen
recording software, use ascreen recording software.
Even just that little change wasfundamentally different, where,
instead of having to write outlong technical explanations,
that I can just screen recordsomething in 15 seconds and send

(55:27):
it to you.
We both understand you nowunderstand it better.
I don't have to write it outfully.
Just those little things thatthere's no one necessarily out
there telling you to do, thosetend to make really good,
interesting ones to write about.
For me, I'm very interestedabout where the future of search
is headed.
Those are always good ones.
Technical SEO I think there'sthe.

(55:49):
I think people would say that'sone of the biggest gaps in
terms of skill sets.
I think there's always anappetite to learn more.
People want to know moretechnical SEO, and what changes
is Google making?
How do I look at a really largesite?
That might intimidate me.
E-commerce sites are notoriousfor that, so I think that's also
just interesting for me to goout and write about.

Another interesting conclusion from the
leak which is not a directconclusion in a way was that we
should focus on customers andnot the leak, which is not a
direct conclusion in a way, wasthat we should focus on
customers and not the leak.
Do you want to talk more aboutthat?
What pushed you to kind of cometo that conclusion?

Mike King (56:23):
When you think about impacting the things that
Google is measuring at scale,it's not by doing these little
hacks, it's by making somethingthat people actually want and
promoting it right.
Because, when you think aboutit again, I look at this as like
user experience, relevance andauthority.
Well, when we say things likebe a brand, which no one wants

(56:44):
to hear because it's such anambiguous idea, brands are going
to be the ones that are goingto have the better user
experience, because peopleremember these brands and
they're like oh yeah, I searchedfor something.
A brand I know has showed up.
I am, of course, going to clickon that more than a brand I
don't know.
And brands have the money andthe wherewithal to invest in

(57:04):
relevance, making robust,comprehensive pieces of content
and experiences that are beyondjust one piece of content.
And then brands are also goingto be able to capture that
authority because, again, if yousee a brand you recognize, you
have a higher likelihood oflinking to that brand.
So you know, at the end of theday, what you need to do is be a

(57:25):
brand in order to create thisstuff at scale.
Like, sure, you can go buy abunch of links so you have the
same number of links, but you'renot going to have the same
quality of links, because we'vejust learned how quality is
measured it's based on pagesthat get more traffic and rank
for things.
Where you're building your linksfrom are not going to be sites

(57:46):
that get a bunch of traffic orrank for things.
So a brand is going to beat youthere.
A brand is going to beat you inuser metrics because, again, a
brand is going to be moreattractive to people.
Sure, you can fake that bygetting a whole bunch of people
to click your things, but it'sgoing to be people from, like
you know, random countries inthe middle of nowhere and it's
not going to have the samesignal as a user logged into

(58:08):
Chrome in the United States orwherever location you're trying
to rank for, so it's going to bea diluted signal anyway.
So, again, the focus needs tobe on like well, how do I do
this stuff at scale?
And it's going to be byactually building a brand that
people remember and want to readcontent from.

And that concludes part two of our Best of SEO
series.
We've explored the art ofcompelling content, the
collaboration between SEO andPPC, strategy differentiation
and insights into the future ofSEO.
I hope you found thesediscussions as enlightening as I
did.
Thank you for joining me onthis journey through the best of
SEO insights from our fantasticguests.
Keep pushing the boundaries ofyour knowledge and remember your

(58:48):
growth in digital marketing isjust beginning.
To the Digital Marketing MentorPodcast.
Be sure to check us out onlineat thedmmentorcom and at
thedmmentor on Instagram, anddon't forget to subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, spotify orwherever you listen to your
podcasts for more marketingmentor magic.

(59:09):
See you next time.

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