How To Build A Career As A Fractional PM

Fractional remote job opportunities are growing, offering professionals the chance to break free from the traditional rat race and take on multiple roles, be their own boss, and avoid the transactional nature of full-time work. But how do you get started in this new world of fractional work, and what if it doesn’t work out?

Michael Gold, a fractional project management expert and founder of The Fractional Hub, discusses the growing trend of fractional project management roles. He shares insights on how this model could become just as common as, or even replace, traditional full-time positions in the future, helping you make an informed decision about whether this path is right for you.

Resources from this episode:

• Join DPM Membership
• Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
• Connect with Michael on LinkedIn
• Check out The Fractional Hub

Episode Transcript

Galen Low (00:00):
You've trained for the rat race your entire life,

(00:03):
and yet the minute you started,you were told that the goal
is to try and get out of it.
Now might be your chance.
Fractional remote jobopportunities are popping
up everywhere now.
Your shackles of professionalmonogamy are loosening.
You could have many employers,be your own boss, and leave
behind the meaningless perksand inherently transactional
mistrust of your productivity.

(00:23):
But where do you even start?
No one taught you howto set out on your own.
And what if it doesn't work out?
If you've been consideringfractional project
management work, eitheras a practitioner or as an
employer, keep listening.
We're gonna be hearing fromsomeone who's lived it and
talking through how you can makethe bright decision for you.

(00:45):
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withthe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you wanna hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
And if you're intofuture-forward conversations
and practical insights arounddigital project leadership,

(01:07):
consider subscribing to theshow for weekly episodes.
Alright, today we are talkingabout fractional project
management roles and whether afractional model might start to
be as common as, or maybe evenreplace, full-time opportunities
in the foreseeable future.
With me today is Michael Gold,fractional project management
thought leader and founder ofThe Fractional Hub, a community

(01:30):
for fractional professionals.
Michael, thanks forbeing with me today.

Michael Gold (01:33):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
I say this to acouple of people.
I've been on that podcastI told you before.
I cannot do the conceptof a face to dialogue
type monologue, thing.
And so that fear at thebeginning, well done.
That's a mouthful,but you've done it

Galen Low (01:49):
thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Congratulations to you as well.
We were talkingin the green room.
You just launched a sortof more premium tier
of The Fractional Hub.
You were up late, youwere doing the launch.
A lot of my listeners can relateto exactly how that feels, but
congratulations on launchingthat and getting it done.

Michael Gold (02:05):
Thank you so much.
I apologize in advancement,if your listeners not, they
would know any differentbecause they've never met me,
but I was up till three inthe morning and I actually can
see it in my eyes right now.
So I will fry and they withit and do something coherent.

Galen Low (02:18):
It's okay.
It's gonna make you hyperrelatable to this audience.
I think, like I was sayingto you as well, like this
notion of fractional work.
It's not necessarily new,but I think it's been
coming up in a lot ofconversations in the context
of project management for me.
A lot of folks in mycommunity have been talking
about it, asking about it.
I thought maybe wecould just dive in.

(02:39):
And I have a multi-prongedquestion, and I think this is
the question that's that keepscoming up in my conversations
because fractional used tobe a term that I mostly see
for like executives, right?
Like fractional CFOs andfractional CMOs, et cetera.
And now we are seeing itin project management.
So I thought I'd justask, what does the word

(02:59):
fractional mean to you?
And how is it differentfrom part-time contract
work or freelance work,especially in the context
of project management?

Michael G (03:07):
Interesting question.
And also just to say thatyou say you know about
a different context offractional you knew at CTO.
I think you are alreadymassively ahead of the curve.
Obviously maybe over thelast five years in the US
and stuff, it is a thinglike particularly in the
UK, the idea of a fractionalCTO is still relatively new
to probably most people.
We're still like on theverge of, which is the

(03:28):
fraction hub, it's notspecifically PMs or anything.
But back to your actualquestion, I guess one of the
things I think of in terms ofthe project management is one,
like you were saying, it'sexecutive level, it's strategic,
and so obviously you can havethat in project management.
So whether you're sayingthat PMO, you're coming in
to solve their processesor something specific value
based, rather than just yourhours to manage a project.

(03:51):
Then it can get morenuanced than that.
And I think this is wherewe're starting to see like
loads of different definitionsof what fractional means.
I think people are fightingout eyesight queen in new
term, and maybe John, butit's fractionally freelance.
So it's the concept offreelance task-based roles,
normal sort of things, butmultiple part-time contracts.

(04:13):
So it's not on a strategiclevel, but it's a part-time
contract done in a way thathistorically we couldn't do.
Project managers, whetherfull-time or in a contract,
99% of contractors are fivedays a week, three month
contract, get the project done.
So even if we're not talkingat that strategic level that
we associate with the CCOfractional community, we are

(04:36):
still seeing a shift in waysof working where you've got
a PM who now can do threeclients a week, two, three
hours a day with the wholeconcept of remote working.
I work for at 0.3 clients,they're all on teams.
I bounce around fromdifferent teams.
I have all my emailsin one sort of inbox.
To an extent, it's likeone expanded client.
It's three different ones incompletely different areas.

(04:58):
So I think that's the bigshift is that we're now seeing
like fractionally, freelance.
I think that's what'sreally taking off.
But like I said, you can stillbe a strategic project manager.
You can still be head of ahuge transformation project
and only be there one or twodays a week while you've got
all these other PMs maybe belowyou working five days a week.
You don't necessarily needthe head of the program
management team or the PMOto be there five days a week.

Galen Low (05:20):
Yeah.
And I think that's thelike, interesting theme
and I think that's what,don't quote me on this.
But what I was seeing in thefractional, like executive
area, A, it was either peoplewho have like retired, but
then they're kinda come backto do a bit of work because
they loved it or they can't putit down for whatever reason.
It combined with this notionthat some organizations

(05:41):
don't need or don't thinkthey need a full-time CFO
or don't think they needa full-time CMO because
they've got other, seniorleaders taking care of stuff.
But sometimes they just needsomeone to come in and do
the strategic thinking andleverage their experience
to rally everyone together.
But they're like, we don'tneed you 40 hours a week.
And then, that execis that's fine.
I didn't wanna show upfor 40 hours a week.

(06:03):
That sort of happened, andthen project management, I
think it actually makes a lotof sense because I hear that
a lot from organizations,especially ones who are
just trying to start theirproject management practice.
They're like, I can'thire a PM right now.
I don't have enough workto fill 40 hours right now.
And then I've gotadded head count.
I've gotta pay a salaryand then I'm gonna feel all
the stress of having enoughprojects for them to work on.

(06:23):
Because the one or twowouldn't fill a 40 hour week.
And I know there's,there's a whole bunch of
like sensibilities aroundproject management as a
practice and as an art formand its value in business.
But I totally get that right?
It's like instead of draggingyour business along until you
get to this point where you'relike, whew, finally I can afford
a full-time project manager.
Now we can get seriousabout projects.
You can actuallybring that in earlier.

(06:46):
And then what I like aboutwhat you said is like that can
still be a strategic person.
We'll get into that laterin the conversation as
well, but I think that'sfor me, the magic sauce.
I like the word you usedfractionally freelancing,
because that's where itsat for me is like I know
a lot of freelancers andthe range is broad, right?
Some folks are just like,I do task management,

(07:06):
I just get it done.
I do volume right.
I can do a lot ofdifferent projects for a
lot of different clients.
And then there's folks whoare like, I'm good at leading
a project, but also givinglike strategic advice.
I'm almost like aconsultant at the same time.
And yet we use thesame word for it.
So yeah, exactly.
It's this reallyinteresting emerging notion.

Michael Gold (07:23):
And to what you were saying for as well though.
So obviously you've got acompany, you can't potentially
have 40 hours a week, butalso so you can bring on
someone at a strategic level'cause you haven't got a PMO.
You haven't got anything.
So if you brought someoneon a discounted rate and by
discounted rate, I just meanon a couple days, the rate
would still actually be good,but that person, 'cause you
wouldn't wanna necessarilyhire someone full time if you

(07:44):
didn't know where you weregonna grow, but you might want
that person to come in, setthe structure full term to at
least allow you to then starthiring freelancers because you
can't just get a freelancer in.
You might not feel comfortableto get a full-time room,
but you can't just randomlybring in a freelance PM.
There's so many examples injust that sense that it makes
sense to go after a strategicfractional project manager,

(08:05):
get them to set it up, andthen if you want longer term,
bring in freelance projectmanagers or fractionally,
freelance project managers.
And it gets convoluted andpeople will laugh and say, do
all these definitions about it.
But I think if you dowrap your head around
them, they do make sense.
It's worth learning about.
The only other point I wouldadd is we're talking about the
companies who can't afford itor whatever, and maybe it's

(08:26):
their first one, but it'salso, where's the tipping
point in terms of, say you'vegot three project managers
and they're all working andyou've got one extra project.
What do you do?
Do you do the classic thing,which is what most organizations
do, which is just chuck it atthe person who's already super
busy and they, and there's allthe complications there and
productivity goes down and all.

(08:47):
Do you think, oh God,historically I can only hire
a freelancer five days a weekon a three month contract.
This is not that a project.
So now you can just getsomeone in on day a week and
they'll be happy to do itbecause they're working for
three other clients as well.
And with remote work, there'snot, I'm not gonna come
in on a Tuesday, look atyour project and then I'll
ignore you for three days.
It's, I'll do a littlebit every day alongside

(09:08):
the rest of my work.
And again, we might go intothis, but it, even when
people get booked on a daya week, or I get booked on.
I would say eight daysa month or something.
In my mind, that's aneasy way for procurement
to understand mass.
Okay.
He's on eight days a month,but the reality is they
don't know when those eightdays are gonna get done with
multiple different clients.
There'll be a week where Iflex the three a week, I flex

(09:28):
the one, but am I specificallyalways doing exactly eight,
I think is the, I think it'sslightly irrelevant because
it forces them, they can'ttime sheet check on me.
There's no micromanagementin that sense because Tuesday

at 4 (09:41):
00 PM I have another client or I'm at the gym.
The two are like the same.
They literally can't tell.
So all they know at the endof every week or the end
of every month is, did wethink Michael did a good job?
And I think it's really goodfrom a psychological point
of view for them as wellthat it stops them worrying
about feeling ripped off.
They said if you are afull-timer and someone just

(10:03):
goes on a three hour, right?
Why is Jeff gone ona, you can't just do.
Even if just doing everythingfine and on this project
they're hitting theirtargets, they would just say
I feel like you, maybe youcould have taken on more.
Your reward for beingefficient and amazing is more
work, which is insane to me.
So at least this model goeswell look, we can't track them,

(10:24):
so we're not even gonna try.
We know we've roughly gotthese eight days 'cause that's
what we think it will take.
But if you are reallyefficient and you do it
in full, they signed upto an eight day retainer
who cares for both of you?
Like the guy's gettingrewarded, you are getting an
efficient, good project manager.
The argument on the flip sideis what do you want him to
arbitrarily take longer, whichalso will mean he will respond

(10:48):
slower to client emails andeverything will be slower.
So I can't imagine youwould encourage that.
This kind of justlets them accept it.
I think it stops thatmicromanagement, that
innate thing inside youthat wants to all agree.
They just don't have a choice.
And I think it just focuseseveryone a lot better.

Galen Low (11:04):
Yeah, I like that, like the value mindset is
do I feel like I'm gettingeight days a month worth
of value from Michael beinginvolved with our organization?
And then it satisfiesthat procurement box,
like you said, right?
It's like, how dowe measure this?
Okay.
It's like the equivalentof eight days.
Is it gonna be justMonday and Thursday?
No, actually, like you said,merged inbox, you're just there.
You're just treatingmultiple projects from

(11:27):
different organizations likethey are just the project
that you're managing.
Like most project managers aremanaging multiple projects.
It's a nice way to sell it in.
And then that other thingI just wanna come back to,
which I thought was just soapt, is that, yes, there's
a lot of organizations ingrowth mode reaching that
point where they need a PMand they're like, cool, we'll
just get a freelancer andeverything's gonna be fine.

(11:47):
But if you haven't set up thatstructure, or if you're not
bringing someone in to setup that structure, that's not
necessarily gonna succeed.
And it's probably gonna failbecause it's never been done
before at your organization.
You can't just throw a pebblein the water and just think
it's gonna fix everything.
It needs someone to come inand set things up, and that's
where my head goes when I'mlike thinking about a Fractional

(12:08):
Hub in your community offolks who are fractional.
Generally speaking, I see itas at least an opportunity for
some very senior, very skilledindividuals to come in and
do strategic work, as well asgetting the project done to
help organizations with theirproject management practice.
Not just to come in and"herd" cats, make sure things
get done, move the ballforward, et cetera, et cetera.

(12:29):
It can be more strategicthan that, and the market is
showing that there's a lot oflike very smart professionals,
very seasoned professionalsdoing this kind of work.
It doesn't have to be justthat someone to fill a
gap for a little while.
They don't need to be allthat skilled they can be.

Michael Gold (12:44):
I think that's the whole point.
Like freelancers aren't goinganywhere in the sense, and they
fill a gap and there are somevery accomplished freelancers.
And so maybe the, thosefreelancers might start
looking at the fraction, whatthey're trying to distinguish,
I guess the mix between.
Just that task base and thatmore strategic based role.
Because otherwise you, afreelancer is a freelancer and
just because you are a seniorPM it doesn't mean that you are

(13:06):
particularly well versed in thespecific thing that they need.
And one of the things, in on,what it allows you to do is
really draft your, and I sayniche, but I feel like in the,
like it's niche that, that.

Galen Low (13:17):
I say niche, I mean, I'm here in Canada, so.

Michael Gold (13:20):
Okay, we'll say niche.
But yeah, really crafting thatniche because there's so many
people now in the marketing.
So if you are making theargument that everyone's more
productive, particularly withAI, everyone's more efficient.
So now you've got the sameamount of jobs and theory
that like everyone is nowable to do stuff part-time.
What you are then sayingis, okay, there's no
need to have the jack.

(13:40):
I don't need like the fiveday A weeker, who's gonna
be good at everything?
But I get two or threedifferent people, one or
two, then days a week, whocan do very specific things.
And get paid forthose expertise.
Let people more efficient ineach department, but also,
yeah, to stop using thatkind of like Jack of trades.
I think that's one of theother things that fractional
is gonna, the future ofportfolio fractional careers

(14:03):
and very hard niches becausethere's just lesser the
need for a generalist.
I only wanna caveat my pointthat there is still gonna
be a need for generous.
I just think it's gonnabecome that in itself.
I think that will become aniche, as stupid as that sounds.
But everyone goes niche.
I. Eventually the generalists,there'll be a much smaller pool
of them and they in themselveswill find these organizations

(14:25):
who actually do benefitfrom having a generalist.
So I think it will go both waysand people swing back and forth.
But nicheing is theway at the moment.

Galen Low (14:32):
Let's go there because I think that where the
conversation goes for a lotof the folks I'm talking to is
like, what does the future hold?
We're recording right now.
It's April, 2025.
And honestly like it doesn'ttake more than a minute of
scrolling through anyone'sLinkedIn feed to realize
that there's this likediminishing trust in long-term
full-time employment.

(14:53):
And I think I'd say my opinionis that no one is under any
illusions anymore about workingfor the same company for their
entire career and gettingthe gold pan and getting
the watch and then retiring.
Meanwhile the thing youmentioned like the economy
is pretty tough right now.
AI is causing disruptionin good and bad ways.
There's like geopoliticalfactors and it's putting a

(15:15):
lot of pressure on companiesto do more with less.
Some of these scenarioswhere we're like, we can't
afford to hire someone andmaybe we only need them for
part-time, not full-time.
But also like fewerroles are available.
There's like layoffs happeningin almost every sector.
My big question is fractionala temporary answer for
a temporary problem?

(15:36):
Or do you think it's actuallylike the way of the future?

Michael Gold (15:38):
I've done like a fair amount of research on
this, and I think somethinglike by 2027, there's expected
to be, I think it's 57% ofthe, thinking it might just
be the US workforce, butthere's plenty of other stats
around the rest of the world.
We'll be freelancing some form.
So it's already shiftingmassively towards the fact
that most people will befreelance, and that's not like

(15:59):
in the last year or something.
That's been an ongoingshift for a decade.
I spoke to a recruiterthe other day.
I thought it was he said ithad gone from three years.
Now the average life span ofa career employee's two years.
So that means around 18months in, you are looking
for your next role in10 years is when we go.
So we're already at the pointthat a full-time job is just

(16:20):
an extended freelance contract.
We have already shifted to that,the whole then we are secure.
You are not, we're allhaving portfolio careers,
so just under a differentname and so I can't see why
the shift wouldn't continue.
I can't see what logicanyone could have.
AI's only gonna get better.
People are only gonnaget more efficient.

(16:41):
The argument, the why youwould wanna keep employee
generalists, like it justdoesn't make sense to me.
You are gonna get morespecialties, you're gonna
get more productivity.
The idea that war and theworld and the economy and
everything is ever gonnasuddenly magically get better.
It's like all of that isheading towards an idea that

(17:01):
portfolio growths definitelygonna be like the future.
And I think by 2030, 2035,it genuinely would shock me
if people still thought offull-time work as like the
normal thing to do, Gen Zand whatever the other young
generation is forgotten.
And the young people oftoday is no longer me.
There's alreadystudies and surveys.
None of them wantfull-time work.

(17:23):
Like it's the thing, and peoplecan look at that like flippantly
and go, ah, lazy or so andso's, or whatever it might be.
And every generation looksat one and says the same.
But the ultimate thing is that'sjust the way that work is going.
And I'm above them andI'm going, good on them.
I think, I just thinkthe rise of technology.
As well.
The fact that I'm startingthe Fractional Hub, the fact

(17:43):
that you have your community,the fact that anyone can make
any company at any moment thatthey want, they don't need.
So I used to see a future whereeveryone has a micro business.
Like why would you need tobe the big players, like even
like companies like ey, forinstance, hundreds of thousands
of layoffs at the moment.
They're shifting andthey're now being much more

(18:03):
open to fractional work.
And PWC as well donereports, Deloitte as well.
Loads of reports aboutthey're all gonna start
using fractional work.
And then I know alot of fractional
consultancies popping up.
So you start to look atthe idea of going, even
companies like EY in a decade.
I can't see why you are notgonna get another one like that.
I don't know why you worked,'cause there's just gonna

(18:23):
be so much saturation in themarket, but in a good way.
Everyone has this ability togo and be the next ey, but at
least on a micro sale, becauseyou get 200 grand, 300 grand
a year, you don't need to bethe 40 million pound company.
You can quite easily scale, Ithink a 500,000 to a million
pound little, and thenyou'll just get those 40.

Galen Low (18:43):
I love that statement, this notion that
the big four or whatever,and we refer to them as
they're these giants.
They're like monolithsin the industry.
They're like almost untouchable.
That idea that actuallyyou might be able to
be the next one, right?
Like it's just like it opensthe aperture, I think a bit on
what the opportunity is here.
I wanted to come back to that,younger generation, about it,

(19:04):
actually for anyone really.
Because like arguably the waywe train people our education
model, like it almost pushesus in the direction of
getting that full-time job.
And I know a lot of folks whoare exploring freelance or
they're becoming fractional.
They didn't go to businessschool, like they didn't
think of themselvesas an entrepreneur.
They didn't have a contract thatwas like bulletproof, like in

(19:25):
their back pocket to start goingout and doing fractional work.
How does someone get started?
A, how do you get started?
How did you get started,I guess I should say.
And also for folks who arelooking at this right now,
no matter what generationthey belong to, what are the
skills that they should have?
What are the resources theyshould have to take on what
is currently "unorthodox" ornon-traditional in terms of the

(19:48):
way we look at work and yet amassive percentage of people
in the workforce are actuallydoing this or exploring this?

Michael Gold (19:55):
Yeah, so a really valid question because
I think there is a tendencyfor people to jump on a
trend without necessarilyunderstanding what it is and
throwing everything at it.
And I wouldn't advise that.
And so like duediligence is cute.
How I got into it, to be honest,it's such a mix of things.
So like I always grew up quiteentrepreneurial because you
talked about that mindset.

(20:17):
I always thought that was gonnabe the type of thing I did.
And then one reason oranother, as I got older, that
kind of got scared out ofme in the sense of like the
risk and like everything.
So I just never quite did it.
My dad owned companiesand stuff, and that was
always like where I thoughtI'd go and I didn't.
And so this has like probablybeen the lowest entry
barrier version of that.
I'm not getting a bigproduct, I'm not investing

(20:38):
millions, it was very much me.
It's a few hundred quid amonth, but it is a business
that I can scan and grow.
It felt like a low barrierentry in that respect.
But even then I had toget pushed fairly far.
Like I went into this andabout, I dunno what to say.
The back story of this is Iwas a digital nomad for a bit.
I did go down to three daya week contract, which was

(20:59):
my first part-time contract.
Never a known or fractional was,or fraction of these freelance.
I guess it started there, didthat for 20 months, came back to
the UK and did the thing I saidI would never do, which is get
back up to five days a week andall time employment and stuff.
Fairly quickly, US gave upon that dream very quickly.

(21:19):
Did that for about ninemonths or promoted into a
role at different company,which about five years before
it would've been like thedream, like I was head of
PMO, really large organizationand really miserable.
And so I was on a three monthprobation, which I passed,
and they wanted to put meon three months notice.

(21:41):
I didn't have a threemonths length period,
do you know what I mean?
As I'd get a job, butto leave I'd have to
give them three months.
And yeah.
Yeah.
And that, not the extensionof promotion, but just, yeah,
to give, I'd have to givethree months to leave and
that just freaked me out.
I felt so locked into aplace I really didn't know.
The people werelovely and everything.
I don't if anyone waslistening to this, it wasn't
like a personnel issueor anything like that.
I just didn't enjoy it.

(22:02):
So I basically bought a houseand a week after buying a house,
quit 'cause it just get out.
So I was just really fortunatethat I had a bit of a, everyone
says have six months of financesor I knew a bit, didn't really
plan it, but it was there andI had a good network and I just
started freelancing and just,it spiraled and every step,
it was learning more and more.
And I'd find these personalbranding experts and I

(22:24):
took a course and I startedlearning about that and.
Just found my way andthen maybe six months in
found the term fractional.
And honestly, we spoke aboutthis night before from where
we had first spoke a few monthsago to now where we are now,
and the progression, because Ibasically found this thing that
was like my core in the center.
That is exactlyhow I wanna work.

(22:45):
I've always wanted towork the whole notion of
productivity over timekeeping.
Again, I tell like ananecdote of my first ever
real job and had my back toback ears, like the CEO, and
I'm just like doing my job.
I was on probation, done allmy tasks, so he was like on
Facebook a few times throughoutthe week and he came over

(23:05):
to my manager to say Hey,you're new guy on Facebook.
Have a word.
My manager just moved my desk,like where I sat, so I then sat
like on the other side of thedesk, like looking at the C,
so he couldn't see my computer.
He came out and said Iknow what you've done.
You know you're gonna have aword of him and in front of me
when he's done everything he'smeant to do, he is actually
exceeding expectations.

(23:25):
Annoying.
I literally had to go at themanager, but jokingly but I was
like still having it to go away.
That was like 12 yearsago and it always stuck
with me the whole career.
I like the only person Imet him really stuck up for
the idea of productivity andsaid fractional is that so I
like dove straight into that.
Took it on completely.
But then I set up the Al Hubbecause as I started posting

(23:48):
and like you described it, yeah,thought leader, like the kind of
like posting on LinkedIn stuff.
I started getting loadsof people interested
having never heard of it.
People like you I know aproject manager recruits are
as well, who didn't understandthe notion of like, how can
the project managers do this?
Spending so long on so manylike coffee calls 'cause
I didn't wanna be rude.
It's nice to network but itreally got a point of every

(24:10):
day, like it was like anotherperson, another coffee people.
I just have 30minutes and stuff.
And I met some amazing people.
It just ultimately in onehand became way too much.
And on the other hand, itfelt like an opportunity
to be like, someone needsto create like a space that
sort of educates people.
And so that's why weinitially launched Free.
We had a coursethat you could take.

(24:31):
The community itself is free.
And then as you think thatat the beginning, we've now
launched like a pay ticket andit's a little bit more like
we'll have some master classesand some like group coaching and
a little bit more like hands onfor the people who really wanna
take it like quite seriously.
But if you're just like, Idon't really know what this
is and I just check it out.
It's take some free resourcesand meet some people and
then see where you wanna go.

Galen Low (24:51):
I love that because it is like a journey and like
you said, like your backgroundis more entrepreneurial, right?
You have the sort of anentrepreneurial mindset, right?
And not everyone has that.
And so they mightwant to explore first.
And then the thing yousaid, which I don't know, I
personally attribute this to anentrepreneurial mindset, but you
said I learned little by little.

(25:12):
Here and there, I like tooka course and what have you
basically taught yourself inquite pressurized situations
where you know it is doing thework and you're like, gosh, I
probably should have added aclause to my contract for this,
or I probably should have taken,a course on personal branding
before I did this thing.
Just like these littlemistakes that you kinda
have to figure out yourself.
But I love about thecommunity aspect is that.

(25:33):
We can combine that knowledgetogether so that we don't all
have to independently learnby making little mistakes
or big mistakes that wecan share that knowledge.
And I think that's what's reallyvaluable is that everyone's
on a bit of a differentjourney, starting from a
different place in the path.
If we're aggregating someof this knowledge and
we're being clever about.
Almost like creating the newmodel to prepare people for

(25:53):
a career in fractional workrather than full-time work.
I think that's areally cool idea.
So I'll definitely linkto it in the show notes.
I know we're talking a lot aboutFractional Hub, and I haven't
really asked you to define it.
I think it's how you justdescribed, it's pretty clear.
I honestly, I think it's likea really interesting, almost
wave that you're riding.
I think we'll headinto the future.

Michael Gold (26:13):
Yeah.
And we had like just alludingto that, like the helping the
community out aspect that youtalking about, we literally
have someone today have anexample of someone who and this
isn't like fractional specific,but that it doesn't have to
be, everyone's on a journey.
Everyone's justsupporting each other.
Obviously we havespecific forums.
Okay.
It's one thing, but this wasjust a woman who, a client
who seems to have a, someonewho has technical difficulty.

(26:35):
I don't know, someone who's notparticularly technically well
versed, and so was on emails,struggling with the emails,
shifted her to WhatsApp, andthen within that, couldn't open
like a document that she needed.
And was basically just askingabout it's feeling like her
pricing's now going over whatshe's asked for, and it was
like the kind of thing oflike, how do I deal with this?
My pricing's kind of escalatingbecause the hoops of having

(26:58):
to jump through now are likenot what we initially agreed.
So it was just a few peoplewho got back and was like,
talking through kind of thered flags of it's okay to
step away from a client,but also at the same time.
But if you're notgonna step away.
This is how I would approachlike the next steps and just
having that sounding boardand a few people to come and
support someone like that waslike really nice to see today.

Galen Low (27:17):
I love that.
It's a situationalknowledge, right?
And like in the moments thatI think is a great support
and the fractional thing,it can be lonely, I imagine.
It's just you, it'syour own business.
For a lot of folks, they're notorienting towards, yeah, maybe
eventually I'll have a team.
They're just like, I am solo.
That can be really isolating.

(27:38):
And there's already aloneliness pandemic coming
out of the other pandemic,the Covid Pandemic and our
ways of working are different.
There's remote and I thinkcommunity, it's it's such
a nice thing to have thatcommunity and to have that
support rather than feelinglike you're alone let, like
fractional means solo and alone.
So I really love that.

(27:58):
I was wondering if maybe we cantalk about almost the pitch.
What's resonating with me,you said it was like hard
to go back to full-timework, and I've heard that
from a lot of folks too.
And then you describe thissort of I'm paying you for
your time, so you betternot be on Facebook, even if
you got all your tasks done.
And I think that's where a lotof the sort of attitudes and
opinions on full-time work arestemming from in terms of, like

(28:21):
maybe not necessarily opposingit, but saying that maybe
it's a little bit dated now.
But then organizations maybe arenot prepared to either procure
or think about fractional aspart of their staffing model.
I wonder if we could talkbenefits and trade-offs.
So like for employersand I guess for like
fractional PMs who likeneed to pitch their value.
What are the benefits andmaybe what are the trade-offs

(28:43):
to be mindful of for havingfractional project managers?

Michael Gold (28:48):
So I guess it depends on are you a remote
or non-REM remote company?
So I mean, would be remote,even those full term.
So I'm very much on thatmodel, and that's a huge
culture war that we're all in.
And it depends on which sideof the defense you sit on.
If you sit in a remote world andthe companies that are hiring
you are remote, then I thinkthere's very little negative

(29:11):
because you work five days aweek and you just do the work
that's actually required to do,and you get paid accordingly.
There's an argument to say it.
If you were working twodays a week, you'd probably
get paid maybe what?
They would pay someone else,the equivalent, like three days.
A, so they would sayyou're only 33% more.
But they're also paying,no, the other two, three

(29:31):
days, no one's working.
So they're saving three daysand they're giving one of
those saved three days to you.
So you are benefiting,one, they're saving
even if it was 50/50.
The point is you've just them20% of their costs and you've.
From a knowledge pointof view, I am working
with multiple tools,multiple different people.

(29:53):
My knowledge of like trendsand different tools and how
different people are workingand how I can learn from people
is so much more agile andadaptive than this idea that
you work in one company and youjust stagnate the same people
doing this things wrong, thathave always been done wrong.
You just keep doing it.
Like I just go and find thebest bits from all these
different companies, take onlittle bits, and then take

(30:14):
that to the next company.
Which I think is likea really fantastic way.
So I'm constantly learning waymore than I ever would be if I
was to do just in one week I'mworking for three s, like yeah.
So that knowledge level is huge.
So from that basis, I can'tsee much if you specifically
need hybrid or in-person work.
I do actually quite strugglewith the idea of, with this,

(30:34):
particularly in Englandwhere we've got IR 35.
And so when you are like talkingabout IR 35, the idea is that
within IR 35, what is outside?
You are meant to havelike control and all
those kind of things.
So someone telling you, youhave to come in the office on
these hours and immediatelylike how is that role?
Like you are already taken awaya lot of the principles and
I know someone could tell me.
Okay, we, this is the linethat they're going at.

(30:56):
It's on this very thin line.
But even though they'recontrolling you, they're still
technically outside IOP basedscience for these other reasons.
But you do reallywalk that line.
And so I think if you are goingto try to take advantage of
this model, I would try to beopen-minded to the idea that
remote is probably a moreefficient model for that.
But if you are not, and youare really saying that they've

(31:16):
gotta come in, then thedrawback would be that it's
very difficult to work formultiple clients in the same
day if you're in someone else's.
So then if you three daysfor one company, Monday,
Wednesday, Friday, thatTuesday and Thursday is
like a no day, and it'slike, how confident are you?
That's the whole idea that myupsell, so I'll keep everything
spinning a little bit every day.

(31:37):
It won't be like a black hole.
And so if people have the blackhole for me, it might become
a little bit more, but that's,I guess I'm talking on the
fractional freelance side froma more strategic point of view.
The more strategic youare, I think the more, like
higher up you are, it'spossibly easier to say I'm
working a silo, I'm workingon process documentation.

(31:57):
So like I can go in, I canmake the appropriate meetings
with the people I'm, and thestakeholders I need to meet.
And on the days I'm notin, nothing's happening
because I'm, yeah, I'm justgiving them 10 days a month.
But like we said I'm actuallyjust giving them a, by
the end of three monthsI'll deliver your process.
And so then maybethe office is fine.
And so again there's waysof making their very little.

(32:17):
I've purposely not spokenabout knowledge transfer
because I think at somepoint you mentioned before
we might talk about it.

Galen Low (32:24):
Maybe let's go there now, because I think
that's the argument I heara lot and I'm gonna be
extreme here, but imaginingalmost all of the workforce
eventually goes fractional.
And everyone's working formultiple different companies.
And then there is thatargument about institutional
knowledge and culture.
You mentioned culture, warof remote versus return to

(32:44):
office and what have you.
And I think some of theargument is probably lease
hold and rent and stuff.
But also some of it isabout, oh, how are we
gonna have culture ifeveryone is like remote?
Then the institutional knowledgeside of thing is like we need
full-time people to retainknowledge about the way we do
business, because otherwiseit might seem like we're
assembling teams and it'slike the blind leading the

(33:06):
blind starting from scratchevery time because nobody
really has that institutionalknowledge of how we do things.
Is the sort of argument aboutinstitutional knowledge and
culture, like if you were toplay this out so that maybe
most of the workforce in thecompany is actually fractional.
Is that going to be a challenge?
This whole who knows whatabout the way we do business?

(33:26):
Who's retaining the knowledgeand how do we tackle that?

Michael Gold (33:29):
I guess that, yeah, there's a
couple of things on that.
Firstly, if you are relyingon people to be your knowledge
transfer, then I think you'vealready failed because that's
more that's the questionof what are your processes,
what's your sort of internaldocumentation and onboarding
processes and all of that.
And yes, you could saynot everything can be put.
And I think that's aweak argument because.
What are you gonna do when theperson who's been there for

(33:50):
20 years does eventually ifyou have an answer for that,
then maybe it's better toprepare more regularly than
wait for the 20 year thing.
What are we gonna do now?
So I think that, and then partof this whole movement I is with
AI and I already, AI, is nowdoing most people's note take.
So we've, work in companies,do your note taking.

(34:11):
I've got some companies whereit's just notes that ends up
in my thing and that's for me.
I work for an AI companywhere that's linked to
their like notion account.
And so it's automaticallylike doing loads of things in
the background that they'veset up loads of things.
So then it's not just thecall, but it's the account
level of every, and basicallytherefore it can summarize and
there's only gonna get best.
And so the argument there isthat AI is probably giving

(34:34):
you way better knowledgetransfer than anyone any
we're getting for a better.
So yeah, that would be mybiggest argument there.
And then on the culture side.
I think a lot of people frommy generation down at least, I
don't know how much culture is athing and there's all that stuff
about, oh, what is culture?
Is it a pizza party or a fry?

(34:55):
I already think that we'reat a point where it's not as
important to people, and Ithink culture is more just
in the way that people speakto each other and that not
just comes from the owner.
And if it's a positiveatmosphere, culture comes
from not burning out.
So if you're workingAlly, you've got these
specialists all doing theirroles, then everything's
documented and stuff, peopleare just happy to work.

(35:15):
I think your culture inof itself will start to
be a nice place to work.
But at the same time, there'snew roles that are gonna
come from all of this andthere's things I already do.
I know an HR rep and we spokeabout like remote work a lot
and his whole thing is hugeon remote and it's this idea
that remote ruins culture andhe always says that's because

(35:35):
you have a full time an inoffice set up and you just
told everyone to go home.
It's not that remotedoesn't work, it's that
you didn't do anything totry to make remote work.
They are different things.
There are ways of saving allthe money that you've put on
your offices and then maybeon a quarterly budgett take
everyone to Spain, I don'tknow, and let them have a weak,
intensive bonding session.

(35:57):
And you probably find thatthe culture is 10 times better
than it ever was 'cause theyall gotta to actually hang
out and maybe take a few daysoff work together rather than
beer and pizza and ping pongon a Friday or whatever like.
I think people can througha lot of that already.

Galen Low (36:12):
Yeah.
And honestly we have this badhabit as humans to try and
replicate something we didin one context Exactly as we
have it in another context.
So like during lockdowndigital conferences we're
like, okay, what's thebooth gonna look like?
Okay, just make a digital booth.
And you'll walk by the digitalbooth and it'll be just like
you were there on the floorin the conference center.
And turns out that's notwhat people wanted at all.

(36:34):
They wanted a digital experiencethat did not necessarily, was
not like a literal translationof the in-person experience.
And I think the same istrue with remote culture.
I've talked to a feworganizations where I get
the sense that they have.
Amazing culture as aremote first organization.
Some of the things you saidthey're very transparent
about their communicationand documentation.

(36:54):
If you're on the other sideof the world, you start your
day, you catch up on allthe notes from the meetings
that happened while youwere asleep and you're up to
speed and there's no privateconversations that nobody sees.
It's like it's allin public channels.
And yeah, to your point,the culture is about getting
together in person or evenjust the way they collaborate,
the energy about the workthat they're doing, and not
necessarily ping pong tables,beanbag chairs, and the

(37:17):
occasional pizza Friday drinksin the office or whatever.

Michael Gold (37:20):
I literally just have a thought,
which is so stupid, itcould come to me anyway.
But we both own communities,our own community.
But the idea that we eitherone of us would believe this
idea that you can't create acommunity of people and these
aren't people getting paid.
These are people payin to people other,
so the idea that like.
People don't think thatyou can have a culture

(37:42):
purely crafted online.
And yeah, I a long time, I'dlove to do some in-person
things, the theme of from aroundthe world and where that's
gonna be and all those kindof, the point is that's not
promised and they're signingup, like people sign up, 'cause
they just wanna immediately.
I've had so many coffee chatslike I alluded to before
that started this and I feellike I know these people.
I've recommended women forjobs and I get on with them.

(38:03):
I message and lookthem all the time.
I've never met them and I,it's just the modern world.
So the idea that like thesepeople who are literally getting
paid to be in a building,that's the only way that
they could derive culture.
They're lucky they're gettingpaid, be there, like they're
not focused on culture.

Galen Low (38:19):
Yeah.
And then it's up to the companyto synthesize "culture" because
they're paying these people.
And yeah, I think the sortof thread of steel throat,
all of this is that, there'san opportunity right now for
everyone to shake off someof the like old habits or
old mindsets and things thatwe're entrenched in and just

(38:40):
be open to something new.
And like I know the Covidpandemic was not a positive
thing, but it was aforcing function for us to
think about the way we dothings in a different way.
AI is doing the same thingright now, where it's okay, it's
forcing us to think about doingthings a different way remote.
It's forcing us to dothings a different way.
Yeah, it doesn't mean thatone is right and one is wrong

(39:02):
in person or remote, but Ithink that whole being open
to what could change ratherthan getting stuck in these
institutions and like comingback to that question that
we were just talking about.
Like I use the wordinstitutional knowledge, which
uses the word institution,which already seems like
an anachronism right now.
Do you know what I mean?
Where it's this is notnecessarily, we built on

(39:22):
these pillars that we feel aresacred and we can't change.
But they might be thethings holding us back.

Michael Gold (39:28):
And just on that, one of the stats and
I'll get it completely wrong,but the whole idea of five
day weeks was created, wasn'tit for like Henry Ford or
something, I don't know, likethe automation industry or
whatever for factory workersand then everyone went, yep.
Five days a week.
That's the best wayto be productive.
And there's so manyarticles even in full-time
work where people havetrialed four day weeks.

(39:50):
In one sentence, productiveare the arguments.
It's not, but the point is,definitely possible might
be possible to everyone.
And that was before AI wasmaking everyone even more
efficient and productive.
So again, I just can't see a waywhere we don't, and now start
to transition away from thislaser, a really outdated model.
And I know that soundscrazy 'cause five years
ago it wasn't date, butwe are the fastest mooding

(40:12):
evolution ever in humanity.
If anything, five years feelsquite slow and I'm getting
forecaster in five years time.
It's gonna be a decade oflike remote and seven years
or eight, nine years of AI.
Like I think people reallyshould be preparing for the
fact that portfolio careers willbe a thing, are a thing, and.

(40:32):
I don't know.
Even if you are in a full-timejob, like I said, like 18
months is pretty much your time.
So like you already are in aportfolio job and when you start
seeing people post on LinkedInor networking and stuff and
think that you don't need todo that, I would argue you do.
You are in it whetheryou think you are or not.

Galen Low (40:49):
I love that.
I'm gonna put you on thespot for one last question,
just to bring it back tofolks listening who are like,
yes, this is interesting.
I wanna explore this.
I'm a bit worried.
I don't really know where tostart, and I thought maybe I'd
flip the question and say, whatwas that thing that you, the
landmine, you stepped on, thething you wish you knew as you
were starting your fractionalcareer, your portfolio career,

(41:13):
that you're like, ah, Ishould have thought of this.
No one had told me this.
I had to figure itout the hard way.
No one else should have tofigure it out the hard way.
Contracting rates brand.

Michael Gold (41:23):
I'm gonna start with one because it really,
and this sound, it's so stupidbecause I'm just plugging
the third party tool, butI think there are others.
Honestly, when I went thenumber one difficult thing I
found and I got to the pointof burnout or close to, I
should say, was working moreclients and that sort of time
mapping exercise that you do.
And so I ended up the toolone cow, which is basically

(41:45):
there, there are, I thinkI've now found a few, but I
struggled originally to find a.
That allows you to twoway think your calendar.
Obviously I can GoogleCalendar or anything like that.
You could add them all in sothey pile on top of each other.
If you book client A,that doesn't automatically
tell client B, Hey, atthat time he's this.
And so I was working,I think four clients.
And then I also had likejust my own, company.

(42:06):
So people might just set up,chats I was talking about, or a
bit of coaching that I would do.
So it's five challenges,but then I'd also have
like my personal email.
It's just like my,wherever I might be doing.
And so mapping those thingswhen at that point it was
one of the, it almost made melike throw everything away.
No, this isn't, and thenliterally I've got one account
and it's the easiest thing,and so I can't, how should

(42:28):
$10 and it's not a lot.
And I can now like, yeah, Ibook client A and it immediately
goes into B, C, D and mypersonal account and whatever.
And it just says private and inbrackets, which calendar said it
to say client A and all of them.
And then it will sayclient B did this.
That's been the biggestthing because as this way I
specifically work, other peoplewill say I just work the morning

(42:51):
for one client, A for another.
I work Tuesday for one client.
And yeah, maybethat's not a thing.
But for project managers,I think particularly the
fractional freelances again, soif you do the strategy element,
you might be able to time boxif you are gonna be working
on like actual projects andnapping your availability to
when a client wants a call inand it's the hardest thing.

(43:11):
Was causing me mis honestly.
So that was numberone, I would say.
What else is there?
I guess number two, and thisis a freelance thing, but I
went freelance for only a fewmonths before practic on both me
both and stuff, but it's, don'tpanic and take on every job.
Because I, I ended up with,and like I said before, as

(43:33):
much as I have the days andthe days in my mind equate
to output and therefore Idon't feel like uneasy about
taking on more or doing less.
There was a point whereI had nine days of work a
week, and even if you aredoing like six days and you
just do six days a week.
And then you do the other three.
Really efficient, basicallyit was two men that there
was no way to condense thatinto a five or six day week

(43:55):
'cause nine days is of absurd.
So I was working like sevendays and I was working like
nine hours a day and made medoing eight days from getting
the night day right down.
Fair.
And that was just like, shit,panic, I'd just gone into it.
Everyone was offeringme a job and everyone on
LinkedIn was telling me itwas the worst market ever.
And yet I, I felt good and I, italmost felt like I'm grateful.
This terrible time and I'm beinglike, and I'm no, thank you.

Galen Low (44:17):
Yeah, you're turning away work.
You feel guilty about it.

Michael Gold (44:20):
And yeah, in the long run, that's
just not a clever plan.

Galen Low (44:24):
I actually love how those two things plug together,
and I think it's underestimatedwhen people are entering this.
We have a lot of conversationsabout, like legal clauses
and scope and negotiationand all that, and those are
all important too, but liketime and capacity management.
Is an art form.
It's a bit differentwhen you control it all.
It's hard to say no to work whenthere's, people knocking on your

(44:44):
door and you wanna help them.
But you have to be realisticand look at how that's
gonna fit in the time thatyou have allocated to work.
Whether you're like, I'm athree day a week person, or
a five day a week person.
But to avoid that sort ofnine day week, nine days
worth of work a week,those are really good tips.

Michael Gold (45:02):
I guess my last one would be how important
personal branding is, regardlessof how sick it makes me feel.
It just is how is it aquote I said in another
podcast the day I haven'tshown my CV in 14 months.
It just isn't a thing.
I have conversations with peoplewhen I've got on LinkedIn page
where you can see my experience.
We barely even chat about it.

(45:23):
Honestly.
I tend to just get a call andsomeone just says, Hey, we
try, I don't know, do you want,do you wanna start tomorrow?
And there's nointerview, no thing.
And it's based on thefact that they obviously
look at my profile.
I've got a bunch of posts,a bunch of followers.
I'm talking vaguely likeI know what I'm talking
about, my experience talk,and it's just how I interact
on the half an hour phone.

(45:44):
It's only a one day a weekor two day a week gig.
If he's rubbish,we'll get rid of him.
It's a low barrier, but Iget the gig because of that.
I'm not putting my CVinto the, the recruiter,
he's got a thousandpeople going through it.
I, speaking to thehiring managers, it's
very conversation.
Obviously, there's a lot ofnos if someone's just not
hiring, they're not hiring.
As soon as someonesay, yeah, hiring.

(46:05):
It goes from that to startingwith them very quickly without
a lot of background checking.
It's just.
They have a look at my profile.
They come to me alot of the time.

Galen Low (46:14):
I like that.
It's like the asynchronousinterview, right?
That happens over a span of timeinstead of, trying to cram all
the questions you have aboutone another into an hour or like
a half day or an assignment.
Like it's almost thislonger getting to know each
other period by lookingat each other's profiles.

Michael Gold (46:28):
But that's a really good point as well
though, is getting intothe branding space, hating
everything that you post.
Everyone does.
Don't worry, it's just true.
You'll save stuff that makes youuncomfortable and you'll panic,
but you just keep doing it.
And people will talk aboutit gets better over time
in terms of like yourstats just keep posting.
But I don't even knowhow through or how
important that is.
I've had posts, I've donelike 120,000 impressions.

(46:50):
A hundred.
Yeah.
And I've done others thatdo 500 quite regularly.
I get posts that getreally high engagement.
Others that, and there'ssome dms, there's no way
people can talk about it.
And I don't believe thatpeople can say this post
generated in 10 weeks.
I dunno how you equateit to that post.
I. That day that had onelike on it and a person
who's never liked any ofmy posts offered me a job.

(47:13):
So what are you looking for?
So I've had posts thatdo 120,000 because I
talked about remote.
Very divisive topic, very easy.
But did that help my career?
I have no idea.
Visibility.
Maybe it's nice to getyour name out there.
And then I do a lotof pieces that do like
1000, 3000 impressions.
Yeah, I did a millionacross a year impressions.

(47:33):
But this, that is pattedout by a few very high ones.
And it mostly, I just likedoing whatever and I don't
know which one's doing it.
I just know that there's aconsistency in it and your
name is just out there.
And not to worry too muchabout the actual number,
just to keep doing it.

Galen Low (47:49):
Human scaling things are so funny, and that
becomes this numbers game.
Whereas actually.
The sort of human connectionis just like that thing that
Michael said resonated with me.
It might've only takenthat one post that got 300
impressions for them to belike, yeah, that speaks to me.
I'm gonna reach out.
And then the numbers gameis, obviously statistically,
you might have better ads,increasing your reach and

(48:10):
all this stuff, but it'salso what you're saying, I
guess is the other thing.

Michael Gold (48:14):
Who's your market?
It's gonna go tothe right person.
And then there's thatmarketing term, which I don't
know if it's necessarilyapplicable to LinkedIn, but
it's the seven touch points.
It's like you need toengage us on, in seven
different ways to thenactually get touch with you.
And so whether that'sposting, liking their
thing, commenting, whatever.
Like a long game.
So you will get people who'vedone it for six months and
say, I've been followingyou for six months and

(48:35):
they've never said anything.
Apparently they have been.
And so I'm just sayinglike it's a long game.
Just keep networking stuff.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but stuffjust feels it just happens to
me in a sense, but it doesn't,I'm obviously posting and
my names out there, but itdoesn't feel like this card.
You like, I don't know, becauseclever have a networking game.

(48:56):
Just put my name out there andjust keep putting it out there,
and then eventually peoplemessage me back and it's fine.
I was like, oh cool.
Obviously you don'thave to close.
That's a completelydifferent conversation.
The networking part isquite easy if you just keep
putting yourself out there.

Galen Low (49:10):
I really like that.
Honestly, it's sucha fascinating topic.
Michael, I really appreciateyou coming on the show,
sharing your knowledge.
Congratulations again onlaunching The Fractional Hub
and also elevating it to aplace where you know, you're
now developing trainingfor folks who are entering
the space of portfoliocareers and fractional work.
And yeah, where can welearn more about you?

Michael Gold (49:31):
So I guess it's thefractionalhub.com.
Very easy website.
And then I'm on LinkedIn,I've gone all in.
So you'll like this.
It'sLinkedIn/fractionalMichaelGold.
Very easy.

Galen Low (49:44):
Very nice.
I will also link it in theshow notes for folks listening.
And Michael, thank youagain for being on the show.
Love to have you backand we can dive deeper.

Michael Gold (49:52):
My pleasure.
It's been really good.

Galen Low (49:55):
All right folks, there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
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Head on over tothedpm.com/membership
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Until next time,thanks for listening.