February 25, 2025 • 38 mins
Trust isn’t free—especially when you inherit a project that's completely off the rails. But instead of going in guns blazing, what if you could build trust with authenticity and strategic partnership?
Galen Low sits down with Melissa Morris, founder of Agency Authority, to discuss practical strategies for establishing trust, improving collaboration, and proving your value as a strategic partner. Whether you’re struggling with client rapport or looking to refine your approach, this conversation will give you the tools to strengthen relationships and keep your projects on track.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Melissa on LinkedIn
- Check out Agency Authority
- Book a free discovery call with Melissa
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Galen Low (00:00):
Trust.
It never comes for free.
It's Monday morning and youfind yourself facing down
a new client that looksgrumpier than that cat meme.
The previous project manager cutand ran, and you've inherited
a project that is so far offthe rails that train metaphors
don't even hold up anymore.
Your colleagues adviseyou to go in guns blazing.
"Show 'em who'sboss", they said.
"Don't agree to do anything.
Shut 'em down", they said.
(00:21):
Most PMs would be crumplingunder the pressure at this
point, but you've got asecret weapon — you know
how to establish rapportand start building trust.
Not with gimmicky banterand expensive dinners,
but with authenticity.
You've done your homework,you've come prepared.
You know your stuff and you'reready to position yourself
as their strategic partner.
But before you get downto business, there's
(00:42):
just one thing to do.
You smile confidently and yousay, "Hey, I'm the new project
lead. Nice to meet you. Howwas your weekend?" And you
watch the ice break itself.
If you've struggled tojustify the ROI on building
strong, multidimensionalclient relationships,
this episode is for you.
We're going to talk with aclient services expert about
(01:03):
ways to build trust andrapport with your clients
in a way that impacts yourprojects positively, keeps
your budget and utilizationin line, and makes you an
invaluable asset to your agency.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withThe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
(01:24):
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
Okay, today we're talking aboutclient relationships and the
role that a project manager canplay in developing that kind
of rapport that contributesto the sustained impact that
(01:44):
their projects can have.
With me today is MelissaMorris, a deeply experienced
agency specialist and founderof Agency Authority, a project
management and operationsconsultancy that helps agencies
operate productively andprofitably without the toxicity.
Melissa, thanks forbeing here with me today.
Melissa Morris (02:01):
Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation.
We've already been brainstormingtons of great things, so I'm
really excited to dig in here.
Galen Low (02:07):
Yeah, I know even just like us prepping for
this, we came up with 17 otherpodcasts and event ideas,
so and it's been a blast.
So more to come from us, butI'm really excited to dive in
because one of the things thatyou and I were talking about
was just this notion of Howproject managers, especially
working within agencies or somekind of client services context,
(02:29):
how they can strategically andalso just authentically develop
rapport with their clients ina way that is good for business
and it got me really thinkingbecause like in my community.
Sometimes folks need tovent a little bit, right?
It can be a frustratingexperience working with clients.
They're like, Oh, gosh, it'slike this kind of exasperation.
But overall, it's likenot necessarily something
(02:51):
that needs to be the case.
I thought maybe I'd getyour hot take on a hot
question right off the bat.
And my question basicallyis this is, the relationship
between a client and an agencyproject manager can often
be really quite adversarial.
I'm just thinking like,why is that the case?
And why is it worth investingin building better relationships
instead of just acceptingthat this is just the way
(03:11):
it is in the agency world?
Melissa Morris (03:13):
Yeah, I think there definitely can start
to feel like this us versusthem type of relationship.
They're doing this to me.
They asked for more revisions.
And I think what'simportant to realize is As
the agency, you have beenhired in as the experts.
You have been brought in,you have the expertise.
That means you're the oneleading this relationship.
(03:34):
So that means you can alsolead and guide whether it
feels very adversarial orit feels very friendly and
it feels good and it feelslike a good relationship.
And I think with allrelationships that
starts to come with goodcommunication, really good
communication, really strongclient onboarding to start.
I think getting clear aboutscope, timeline, deliverables,
(03:56):
and staying in goodcommunication with your client
does lead to friendly clientrelationships versus those
that feel like us versus them.
Galen Low (04:03):
I think it's really good because I think a lot
of folks enter the role onpurpose or by accident, right?
And things happen to themand it feels very reactive.
It's okay, client requestscoming in and there's this
pressure to do a thing.
And I don't think a lotof project managers enter
the role thinking ofthemselves as a specialist.
And if they do think ofthemselves as a specialist,
it's not often that theythink of themselves as a
(04:25):
relationship specialist,that they're in the lead.
I like that framing that youare leading the relationship.
It's not happening to you.
Things will happen to you,but like that overall thing is
something that you can control.
I like that sort of twist ofyeah, you can make it positive.
Like it's a perspective, butalso not like delusionally
you can actually do this.
There are things you can doto improve communication,
(04:47):
to make the relationship alittle bit more comfy and fun.
I think a lot of folks sometimeswill say to me, they're like.
Yeah, but clients are clients.
I'm like, why would Iinvest more time to make
this a good relationship?
Sure.
Maybe it'll be easier for me,but it seems like more work.
How do I benefit?
Melissa Morris (05:03):
Yeah.
And we talked about this too.
I am always of the mindset.
It is easier to keep theclients that you do have
than to go find new ones.
And think about it.
Your current clientsare your business.
Let me say it again.
Your current clientsare your business.
If you didn't have anyof your current clients,
would you have a business?
And I think it's easy toforget that because we are
(05:26):
get the project, pass it off,go find the next sale, right?
And I think that can start tobe the mindset, particularly
if you have a agency orbusiness that is a little
more project oriented versusongoing relationship oriented.
But I always think youshould be thinking about
your current clients.
Yes, have a pipeline.
Yes, been in sales.
Yes, be focused onlead gen. Absolutely.
(05:50):
You could also be askingmore of your current clients.
Is there another projectthey can slide into?
Can we make sure theyrenew their agreement?
Can they send you referrals?
Nurturing your currentclients will go a long
way towards a very healthybottom line in your agency.
Galen Low (06:06):
I love that in terms of a sort of relationship
driven business model.
Cause to your point, acquiringa new client is a lot of work.
It's expensive.
There's risk involved.
And when you have existingclients, like that is probably
some of the best way to atleast have an ongoing pipeline
or opportunity to do moregreat work without necessarily
having to go back out, intothe cold calling world.
(06:27):
Yeah.
The thing I'm thinking about inmy head is that at the time of
recording, a lot of folks aresort of worried about layoffs
or have been hit by layoffs.
And some of the stories I hearare that, yeah, like they cut
the whole, project managementteam down like way down, but
they kept the sales team andthey're like, what gives?
And you can see how the modelof yeah, let's just turn
through projects and clients.
Like we need to get new clients.
Actually could paint a, Iwas going to say bad picture,
(06:50):
but you know what I mean?
Like it doesn't necessarilybode well for a project manager.
Melissa Morris (06:53):
Yeah.
It's confusing.
It's a alignment.
You're like, I'mdoing a lot here.
I'm telling, you're tellingme, Oh, nurture your clients.
And they're just worriedabout the sales team.
But I can tell you, Iworked in agencies for
almost 10 years before Istarted my own business.
And during that time at theseagencies, it was my job to grow
the current book of clientsand not go get new ones.
That was sales.
(07:14):
That wasn't my role.
But if I was handed an accountand it was a half a million
dollar account, I was expectedto grow that and look for
opportunities and retain thatrelationship that was absolutely
a part of my job, right?
You even think about the title,account manager, you are the
manager, you're leading it,you're in the charge of it.
You should always be lookingfor opportunities to grow
(07:35):
your book of business withthe client that you have.
Galen Low (07:38):
I love that.
I want to come back to thattoo, because my background has
always been like an accountmanager slash project manager
slash BDE kind of hybrid role.
Melissa Morris (07:45):
Well, we all do in that world, right?
Galen Low (07:47):
Well, I mean, isn't that, that is the sort of the
agency life agency hustle, notnecessarily like the icky side,
but good work begets good work.
And it is sort ofrelationship driven.
That is a way to run an agency.
Profitably, predictably, allthat stuff, and that trickles
down to the staff to have thatstability, to have that level
of comfort where it's not allnew, all chaotic all the time.
And, I can see a lotof benefit to that.
(08:09):
I want to come back to that ina little bit, but I wanted to
touch on, I want to learn a bitmore about Agency Authority.
Like you are the founder there,your consultancy that works
with agencies to look at theirproject management process,
to look at their operations.
Can you tell me a bit aboutwho your team helps and how?
Melissa Morris (08:24):
Yeah, so we serve multi six figure
agencies working to scaletowards a million dollars.
And we do that by helping themget the foundations in place
to support sustainable scaling.
And we do that through aframework called TOP, where
we're focusing on yourteam, your offers, your
processes, and your pipeline.
So while I am a big fanof nurturing your current
clients and maintainingit, I also understand that
(08:45):
sales is a part of that.
So we're looking at these fourpillars because I have found
that these, I mean, even intomillion dollar agencies and
multi million dollar agencies,if you don't have a solid
team, solid offers, solidprocesses, and a solid pipeline,
you've got some work to do.
You're definitely goingto have trouble gaining
sustainably, keeping revenueup, profit margins up.
(09:05):
These are just the four pillarsof really any successful agency.
Galen Low (09:08):
That's really cool.
I like that.
My, the pipeline piece also asa mix in some of the agencies
I worked with, like it was sortof a forecast or a projection
of net new opportunities, right?
That pipeline, but alsostill the like retained
account forecast, right?
What are we projectingfor this account?
I don't know.
Not everyone would say callit a pipeline, but it is set
still, cashflow revenue streamflow of work to keep your
(09:30):
staff doing, what they do well.
I really like that.
I like the targeting ofthe, getting from the multi
six figures into a million.
There's just so muchthat happens for an
agency in that stage.
Melissa Morris (09:41):
There's a lot...
Galen Low (09:42):
...to grow like in a sustainable and predictable way.
Melissa Morris (09:45):
Yes.
There's like thesepivotal benchmarks, right?
Once you get to that first300 K you're like, okay, we've
got something rolling here.
And then you start getting tothat half a million and you're.
You're like, Oh, this is reallygetting a lot more than I
can keep my hands on, right?
And me and my righthand are having trouble.
And then you'rebringing on more team.
And now that team is reallyconfused because they don't
(10:06):
have the institutionalknowledge of the two, three
people who've been supportingyou all along the way.
And oftentimes your clients arechanging the type of clients
you serve and support arestarting to look different.
So how do we lean in to thesenew clients and these new offers
that feel more in alignmentwith the direction we want
to take our agency withoutalienating the people who got
(10:26):
us here and the clients whosupported us to this moment.
And how do we worksome into new packages?
How do we lessen the lease andthank those that just aren't a
good fit for us and doing thatin a really great way so that
we can all still be friendly.
And all that good stuff.
So there's lots of steps toget to that million dollar.
(10:47):
And once you start gettingcloser to that half a million
and beyond, it can feel alittle bit like a wild ride
there for a hot minute.
Galen Low (10:54):
The game changes.
I like even your framingon that because one thing
that I really like aboutwhat you do is sort of this
obsession, if I can say that.
And like obsession aboutlike client relationships,
like what you just saidthere was not about, yeah,
cut off all those clientsthat we don't want anymore.
And, onward and upward, it'slike, how do we retain and,
(11:16):
keep this sort of Good blood forlack of a better word, right?
So between everybody, it'ssomething that factors
in your work a lot.
I was wondering, can you tellme the story of just one of
your client relationships thatkind of sparked this obsession?
Melissa Morris (11:28):
Yeah.
So I was thinking about thisand years ago, I worked at
this boutique agency and webought on a local ice cream
shop as a client and theyhad a teeny tiny budget.
I mean, if it was even a hundredK that was like generous.
And they were struggling.
This couple wasreally struggling with
this ice cream shop.
(11:48):
Sales were really down.
They were actually nearingretirement age and had hopes
of selling the shop, right?
This was part of it.
And they were very stressed.
They were doing, randomlittle ads here, sponsorships
there, and just reallystressed when they came to us.
And I started working withthese folks and I took
their teeny tiny budget,but we got it focused.
(12:10):
We made small shifts, smallchanges, even within the store,
we made some changes for them.
And within about a year, wecompletely turned it around.
Sales were back up.
Yes, sales were back up.
They were doing great.
And I think by year three,they sold the ice cream
shop for the profit.
They went off, they retired,they got their little
house by the river thatthey had been wanting.
(12:31):
And just to Be able to see likethe transformation that this
work can really do for people.
And, they trusted us andI felt that responsibility
to, they hired us.
I think because it was suchlike a intimate, important
moment, like an import, Iknew how important it was
(12:52):
for these people and itfelt really important to me.
It just really was an easy way.
When you're working with abigger corporation or a, we, we
worked with like the countiesrecycling program, there's
all these peoples and there'sbureaucracy and it's hard to
feel as connected to it, right.
But in this instance, I wasjust so connected to it.
It was just like amagnification of how important
(13:13):
these relationships areand what they can mean for
the people you're serving.
And you know how awesome itwas to help these people.
So that was definitelythe obsession.
It all started with somemint chocolate chip.
Galen Low (13:25):
We got paid an ice cream for a few years.
Melissa Morris (13:26):
I would say they did give us a lot of
free ice cream, which alsomay have contributed to this.
We got a lot of free ice cream.
Galen Low (13:34):
But isn't that the seed of it, right?
Like it's like a relationshipwhere you cared, right?
And you had thissort of empathy.
You were along for the ride ofthe mission that they were on.
And by the sounds ofit, it started Rocky.
Yes.
They were like, we need help.
We have a small budget,but we're throwing
it all at you guys.
And I'm sure there werestressful moments of
this is our livelihood.
Like you guys need totake this seriously.
(13:56):
We're freaking out andthey might, not every
email and correspondenceand phone call with them.
I imagine was nice and calmand tickety boo, because...
Melissa Morris (14:03):
Not right.
Galen Low (14:04):
It was their business.
This was their like life plan.
They need to make this happen.
And that can be stressfulin and of itself.
And there could be some agencyfolks and project managers
especially to be like,you're just another client.
I can't be bothered to careabout your retirement plan.
I've got 6, 10, 25 otherprojects on the go.
I just need to shift you on.
Whereas this is somethingwhere you're able to get on
(14:25):
side with their mission, feellike a part of it, and change
your behavior in that way.
And also build that trust.
You use the word trust.
Trust doesn't come forfree in my world, right?
It's not like theywalked in the door and
were like, We trust you.
Here's all our money.
Melissa Morris (14:38):
Right?
Yeah.
No, you're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right.
There were rocky points,but coming back to clear
communication, reallynurturing that relationship,
showing up for them,keeping them in the loop.
We were feeling like in a deeppartnership about this, right?
And it was like theirsuccess was also my success.
I did a good job if they'reselling more ice cream.
(15:00):
And so that connectedness andthat partnership, I think, leads
to even bigger transformationsa lot of the time.
Galen Low (15:08):
I really like that.
Based on what you learnedthere and across other client
relationships, what advicedo you have for folks who
are like leading projects?
Starting off a relationshipand sometimes, a project
manager, especially sometimeswe get dropped in midway.
Maybe that's true for allcrafts within an agency or
anywhere, but, you get droppedin midway, the relationship
isn't necessarily new interms of like agency and
(15:31):
client, but you're new.
What's your top tip forgetting that relationship
started on the right foot?
Melissa Morris (15:35):
Respect that it's new and
treat it like it's new.
So anytime I was taking overan account I always encourage
any agencies or businesses Iwork with, if you are a new PM
or new account manager takingover or on the client side,
there is a new team membercoming on board, especially
when that's a decision maker.
(15:55):
You do a micro onboarding.
You come in.
Hi, I'm new to the account.
I've spent a lot of timereviewing notes and getting
up to speed on your account.
Here's what I see.
Here's where I see ouraccomplishments have been.
Here's what I see isoutstanding for us.
And this is what I'mlooking at as the way ahead.
Does that feel in alignment?
Does that feel correct?
(16:17):
And this opens up the door.
One, they're starting toalready get confidence in you.
Okay, they know what's going on.
They're gettingbrought up to speed.
This is looking good.
Option number two.
When someone was on theway out of that account, we
don't know the circumstance.
Was this personultimately fired?
Had they not beendoing a good job?
Did something happen in theirlife and this transition
(16:38):
happen very quickly?
That is a prime opportunityfor something to slip
through the cracks.
So let's circle the wagonsand make sure everybody's
on the same page.
And it doesn't haveto take long, right?
We don't need a big drawnout thing, but if I could
spend 15 minutes saying,Hey, does this sound right?
Are we all in sync here?
Yep, that sounds right.
Cool, let's go.
Or they can say,Oh, wait a second.
(17:00):
The old account manager wassupposed to be doing X, Y, and
Z, and that wasn't happening.
Ah, okay.
Now we've got an opportunityto really course correct.
Before two, three monthsdown the road, you're fired.
And they're like, yeah,this isn't working out.
We're parting ways.
Galen Low (17:12):
There's so much in there that I love.
Because a, I like this idea ofonboarding a new person from the
client team into your projectno matter when it happens.
They're new, treat it as new.
But I like that it wasn'tlike, tell me everything,
it's do your homework andcome to the table smart.
not omniscient, right?
Don't pretend youknow everything.
But I like that ideaof here's what I see.
(17:34):
Here's what Ithink we should do.
Does that sound right?
And then you can getthrough that if the answer
is no, not quite right.
There's this thing, thenyou have this opportunity
where you understand wherethere's been pain in the past.
I can start building that trustby addressing that pain, not,
bending over backwards to belike, great, you now get, a
phone call on a SAS report everyday until, until the project
is over, not hyperextendingyourself, but you're like, we're
(17:56):
going to address that, and Ithink there's that sort of,
some people would be like, oh,that's customer service one on
one, but I don't know that itis so like basic of a concept.
It's actually quite nuancedand strategic to drive that
conversation and service thecustomer, service your clients.
In a way that is balancedand that is strategic,
that is beneficial.
(18:17):
Not like customer is alwaysright mentality, but you
know what, if we can sortof use this a pain point or
a challenge or something tocare about a lot, to have
the anchor for our trust.
Then let's use that.
Melissa Morris (18:28):
Absolutely.
And I have seen where, becauseI'm the new account manager, I
feel like I have to show up withgreat ideas and push forward and
we're going to crush this andthis, all this enthusiasm and
you can get swept up in that andmiss something really important.
But to your point, we don'twant to swing the pendulum
the other way and be like,all right, loop me in.
What's the status here, guys?
Right?
(18:49):
No.
Galen Low (18:49):
We have to speak.
My billable rate to tellme stuff you already know.
Melissa Morris (18:55):
Exactly.
So that's why I just love thismix of this is what I see.
Is that what you see too?
Galen Low (19:02):
It's really strong positioning.
One of the things that I'vebeen thinking about as well is
just like in a lot of agencies,like I was always an account
manager, project manager hybrid,which meant I was client facing.
I own the relationship,but project managers
specifically in agenciesaren't always client facing.
And sometimes they onlycome to meetings to I have
here in my notes reporton the weather, right?
You're like, here's your projectstatus report back to you, Jane,
(19:26):
back to you, Serene, right?
And it's you don'town the relationship.
You're just thereto do your spiel.
But like, how can a PMcontribute to a healthy client
relationship without maybestepping on the toes of someone
like an account manager,or someone like a business
development manager, when theydon't own the relationship?
What is the right way to findthat balance, not overstep,
not try and take over, andstill maybe get some time on
(19:47):
stage in front of the clientto build that relationship?
Melissa Morris (19:49):
Yeah, that's such a great question
because project managerssometimes have to be bad cops.
Right?
Like the account manager getsto be, Oh, my buddy, the client.
Oh, they need extra time.
And the project manager has tosay, no, there is no extra time.
There's not extra budget.
There's not extra time.
The answer is no.
And so it can be tough thento be bad cop and good cop
(20:13):
at the same time, right?
Like still show up in a waythat is fostering a really
strong client relationship,sticking to the overall agency's
timeline and not have youraccount manager mad at you.
Like you shouldn't, youknow how much they pay us.
They should get an extraround of revisions.
And you're like,no, they shouldn't.
So I do think it is a verypracticed skill set and
(20:34):
definitely requires relationshipmanagement of its own accord
with the project, right?
Because there's a big differencebetween saying no, the deadline
is the end of the week versussaying we have the deadline
at the end of this week.
And if we're going to meet youroverall timeline, we're going
to need this from you by Friday.
What roadblocks are coming upfor you that is making you feel
(20:56):
like this isn't going to happen?
Is there something we docan do to support you?
Hello upsell add on to helpyou with that, to help you
get that across the finishline, because we want to
make your goal, where can wemake up time somewhere else?
So really coming in fromthat problem solving mindset,
what do they always say?
Don't come to me with a problem.
Come to me with solutions.
And I think that is a projectmanager's number one job.
(21:18):
Don't come and say theproject's completely off track.
Come and say, we need tocourse correct, these are
some options that I seethat we can course correct,
which one feels most viable.
Galen Low (21:30):
I love that.
I mean, there's so manypeople who do think, yeah,
their job is to say no.
And no in any relationshipis pretty, it's fickle,
you know what I mean?
Melissa Morris (21:38):
It is fickle.
Galen Low (21:40):
Everything is sort of a negotiation, I
guess I should say, right?
I don't want to make itseem transactional, but The
solutions focus is thereis something we can do.
It might cost more money andit might take more time, but
there's a thing that we cando and, let us be helpful.
And I also like the idea.
I mean, you said somethingabout like good cop, bad cop,
and being, one in the sameand the same person, which
(22:00):
I can definitely relate to,especially as someone who
was like an account managerand project manager in one.
Melissa Morris (22:04):
I wore both hats, as well, at the same time.
Galen Low (22:07):
You're like, it's like you're Gollum and
Smeagol, like talking toyourself going no, but we
want to be able to give them,an extra round of revisions.
No precious time.
It's you have to be twothings, but also I guess the
other thing that's in thereis the fact that an account
manager and a project managercan also function as a team.
And that's probably a wholedifferent episode of the sort
(22:27):
of quote unquote, sometimesadversarial relationship
between sales and accountmanager and project managers.
But when they're workingtogether to make that decision
in advance to be like, we can'tdo endless revisions because
they won't hit their goal.
We'll just like cycle endlessly.
This business will go under,like we just can't do that.
What can we do?
Let's like get on the same page.
Let's decide who's goingto be good cop, bad cop.
(22:49):
Let's decide what our messageis before we go into the room.
So that's nothappening in real time.
And that's so we looklike something that
is, can be trusted.
Because I think the otherthing is when a promise gets
made when someone is outsideof the room, and then It's
Oh, but we can't do that.
It's well, we alreadypromised that we do that.
That's where a lot ofthat friction comes from.
That translates into a negativeclient relationship too.
(23:10):
Because they're like, guys,get your act together.
Can we have revisions or not?
Because I was toldthat we could have it.
Melissa Morris (23:15):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I'm so glad youbrought that up.
That's such a great point.
That project manager,account manager relationship
is so, so important.
If anybody's a parent outthere, okay, United Front.
When we go to thechildren, there's no
TV later, United Front.
Hey, you got me?
You got my back?
I got your back.
(23:35):
Right?
And so that's the sameapproach you guys gotta go in.
We got each other's back.
This is where we stand.
And this is what we'regoing after, right?
Galen Low (23:42):
I like that model.
It's We are parentingtogether, and the client
is the child, okay?
Melissa Morris (23:47):
Right.
Galen Low (23:50):
The client's hey! Wait a second.
Melissa Morris (23:54):
Okay, maybe sometimes I do stand on my feet
a little bit and whine and cry.
Galen Low (23:57):
It's actually a luxury.
If I can get treated likemy kid, that'd be great.
Melissa Morris (24:02):
I know, right?
Galen Low (24:04):
It does raise the question, too, though, in a
world where Billable hoursutilization is a thing, right?
That's part of how an agencyoperates, how the client
service world operates, andif it's not really your kind
of job description or it'snot like something you're
measured on, how do youadvise your agency clients on
balancing these billable hoursversus relationship building?
(24:26):
Can agencies even measurethe ROI of building
this client rapport?
Without also being blinded bythis like dip in utilization,
you're like, Whoa, nowsuddenly you went from 85
percent billable to 70 percentbillable because you're having
conversations with a client.
Like, how do you help youragency clients understand
the value of relationships?
Melissa Morris (24:46):
Yeah, and some of this is which we haven't
quite touched on yet ishaving really solid processes
in place for your business.
So when I'm leadinga client meeting, I
should have an agenda.
And I know the firstfive or six minutes is
maybe small talk, right?
We don't want toget carried away.
We don't want to spend,15, 20 minutes chit
(25:06):
chatting about vacations.
But can we just take amoment to check with them?
How are you doing?
How are you doing?
Oh, I remember yourson plays baseball.
How's his team doing?
Right?
Remember their spouse's names ortheir significant other's names.
Remember their children'snames for the important people
in their life that they're,so and so they mentioned
they're having a birthday,little things like that.
(25:28):
Keep track of that.
And those are small thingsthat you can do when they
mentioned their Best friend'sname, jot it down, right?
Hey, you mentioned your bestfriend loves the Yankees too.
Tell them they'rekilling it this year.
Right?
So just little things likethat, just being thoughtful
in ways like that and spendingthat few minutes, and then to
bring it back to processes,you can also have automations,
(25:49):
you can have checkpointsthat do some of this for you.
So have your client tellthem your birthday and they
automatically get a card in themail or they get an auto email.
Do you know, like it doesn'thave to be, we think it has
to be these grand thingsand it really doesn't.
Just a simple email likethat can go a long way.
Check ins even just,how are we feeling?
(26:10):
How's work going?
Can I support youin a better way?
Like I love an automatedquestionnaire that goes out
midway through an agreementthat just says, Do you feel
like we're meeting your goals?
Is there something Ican be doing better?
When am I doing that feels good?
What can I change?
Even just being heard inthat way helps nurture
that relationship.
And then what you can getback from that is golden.
(26:31):
Oh, we're doing good.
We're on track.
Oh, something's notfeeling right for them.
Okay, let's get on a quick call.
So we just give them a platformto be heard and share their
thoughts on the process,which is an automated form.
Easy.
Galen Low (26:44):
I like that.
And, like sometimes in myhead, like I don't know.
We all get marketed to, andyou have the, you get those
marketing automation emailsthat feel cold, or they forgot
to put in the right variable.
So it says, hi, first name, justchecking in about that thing.
I'm trying to sell you.
And you're like, wow, that'sso cold and impersonal.
I don't want to dothat to my projects.
But actually what you're sayingis it's the thoughtfulness and
care that just gets put into aprocess because you care because
(27:07):
you do want to hear back fromthem and you're not just trying
to sell them, it will probablylead to good things, but.
Really, it's sort of,micro things can actually
make a big difference.
And then you can also blendsome of this relationship
management into the work.
I think people think they'relike, Oh my gosh, well, I
have to go and spend fourhours building my pinboard
of the family tree of myclients, and have a dossier,
(27:28):
that's going to take time.
I'm not gonna be ableto build that time.
I need to go golfing.
I need to hit the golfclub, like with my clients.
And we had to do 18 holesin order for me to do this.
Like I don't have time.
It doesn't have to be big.
It can be smaller.
It just has to guide the work.
Melissa Morris (27:40):
Absolutely, and I've even done small things
where if I know a client isjust really underwater, right,
they had to let go of a teammember, they've got someone
I know they're putting inlong days, I'm going to shoot
them a Starbucks gift card.
Just, here you go, ten bucks,easy, no utilization, not a
big thing I know you've gota lot going on right now,
and they're always like, Oh,thanks, like just knowing that
(28:01):
I was Paying attention, right?
I'm paying attentiongoes a long way.
Galen Low (28:06):
This is sort of an off the cuff question,
but with the clients thatyou work with, do you often
see a project manager whohas a bit of a budget to
do relationship management?
Or does that kind of sitmore with account managers?
Or is everyone just out ofpocket, but they get a word in
terms of like getting the KPIs?
Melissa Morris (28:23):
No, I think I do see a lot of agency owners
that do have some small budgetfor things of this nature to
send a little gift card or tosend a welcome package during
onboarding those sort of things.
So I think when it comesto that, I do think that
should be something that,overall the agency or
business has addressed.
I don't think anybody shouldfeel pressure to do that.
(28:43):
Out of their own pocket,and it wouldn't even have,
that's something I like todo, but it could even just
be an email that says, Hey,I know you've been really
swamped and we talked about yougetting that to me on Friday.
It actually isn't goingto change my workflow.
If you get it tome Tuesday morning.
Right?
Like it's okay, right?
Check with yourproject manager first.
(29:04):
Don't change timelines.
But I think the point is wecan just do small things to
let our clients know thatwe're thinking about them and
that they're important to usand it doesn't have to take
a lot of time and it doesn'thave to take a lot of money.
Galen Low (29:16):
Love that.
We've been talking about Idon't know, pleasant clients
and client relationships.
Folks that, yeah, it might notalways be cozy and good and
nice, but you know, there'sways that we can build trust
and build this relationship.
And I know that somefolks are listening to,
and they're saying, butsometimes clients just suck.
(29:37):
And it's true.
There are bullies out there.
There are toxic clients.
There are some clients thatjust simply are the worst.
And yeah, we could invest alot of time sort of building
up the relationship, butthey might not actually be
good for culture, mentalhealth, business in general.
And what do we do there?
Melissa Morris (29:55):
Yeah.
So I do believe sometimes thereare just bad clients and this
is probably going to come asa shock to some people, but.
You can fire clients.
Galen Low (30:06):
Ooh.
Melissa Morris (30:08):
It's allowed.
Galen Low (30:12):
I want to dive into that more.
I mean, gosh,that's another one.
That's potentiallyanother podcast episode.
But maybe we hintat it a little bit.
Who can fire a client?
Because I know a lot ofproject managers out there
just went, Oh, yes, please.
Yeah.
Can we fire them all?
Melissa Morris (30:26):
All of them.
All of them.
All of the clients.
Done.
Galen Low (30:29):
Yeah.
They got to go.
Melissa Morris (30:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Galen Low (30:31):
How does that decision get made?
Melissa Morris (30:33):
Yeah, so it's definitely not one
you make lightly, right?
This whole conversation has beenabout nurturing your clients.
And so there should definitelybe a lot of internal checkpoints
and conversations beforeyou ever get to the point of
considering firing a client.
And this is where goodprocesses, policies will
(30:53):
really play an important role.
So you can come backto, are we on scope?
Are we being goodcommunicators about timeline?
Are we being goodcommunicators about budget?
Are we doing everything we can?
And make sure you're beingclear about it because
sometimes you think you'rebeing clear and you're really,
you're not being clear, right?
(31:13):
Well, I told him I neededit as soon as possible.
That's not clear, right?
Tuesday by 11 a. m. is clear.
So I always recommend you'retaking those steps first.
Are we being very clear?
Have we had a conversationwith the client, like
a realignment call?
Have we gotten them onthe phone and said, we
want to revisit scope.
We want to revisit.
(31:33):
We're not going to sayboundaries necessarily
to them, but whatworking hours are, right?
Whatever, however theymay be in violation we may
want to have a conversationwith them about tone or who
they're reaching out to.
We want you to have thebest point of contact.
The best way to do thatis always reach out to
your account manager.
We can't have you messagingthe project manager and the
design team for additional time.
They're not going to know.
(31:55):
So the best way to getyou the best answer.
So really address whatare the problem points.
Have we been veryclear with them?
On how we can course correct,how we had conversations, how
we given them time, how didthey receive that information?
So lots of conversationsalong the way.
And then at that point, ifthings are just still really not
(32:15):
working well, the client is justnot on board with this and just
continuing to push boundaries,scope, whatever that looks like,
then you do need to take itto leadership, whether that's.
the owner directly,a middle person.
And then of course alwaysyou have to look back
at your contract, right?
Yes, I say we can fire clients,but only if your contract says
that you can as well, right?
(32:37):
Like you always want to makesure legally you're fulfilling
all of your obligations, whichcomes back to good processes.
Do you have a clear contract?
Do you have a clearscope statement of work?
So as long as all of that, And,legally we're doing what we're
supposed to do, then yeah, youtake it to leadership and let
that decision get made there.
Galen Low (32:55):
I appreciate that due diligence and like the
gravity of the decision too.
It's are we doingeverything we can?
Because it is possible foran agency to make a client a
bad client by thinking thatthey're actually doing a good
job when they're actuallynot, turn the mirror on
yourself first and then okay.
Now let's move theconversation forward.
Melissa Morris (33:12):
Absolutely.
Galen Low (33:13):
It's funny because this sort of quote
or a thing that I wastold pops to mind, right?
No one trains a clientto be a good client.
So there's that thing too.
And that's a wholedifferent thing as well.
But I want to circle back onsomething you said earlier,
actually something you'vebeen saying throughout,
there's such good tips aboutrelationship management.
And I know a lot offolks are like, no one
trained me to do this.
I didn't know I could buy agift card or it was okay to
(33:35):
send an email to check in.
If my client's having ahard time with restructure,
no one taught me to quoteunquote, walk the halls.
I think maybe account managersprobably do get trained this
way, but anyone outside ofthat role, like a project
manager, if they want to learnmore about some of these like
techniques and like the skillsneeded to nurture relationships,
where can they go?
Melissa Morris (33:54):
Yeah, that's a really great question because
this isn't something I feellike that is taught or shared.
I always think about it.
I think we canovercomplicate it, though.
Just think aboutany relationship.
What is any relationship?
How is that successful?
Well, I'm clear.
I'm kind.
I pay attention.
(34:14):
I show up.
Right?
So I think even just notovercomplicating it and
just remembering thatyour clients are humans.
And they have, I guess youcan think of that saying to
everybody's, got something goingon, you don't know anything
about or walk a mile in theirshoes, and then you'll know.
And it's important to, withthe internet, like we're
like, we're not geographicallyindependent anymore, right?
(34:37):
So we are working with peoplein different time zones,
with different backgrounds,with different cultures,
different continents at times.
So sometimes what's feelingoh, they're very short.
Just culturally, maybethat's how it is, right?
And that's notanything negative.
That's, they don'tmean anything by it.
So I think trying to keep thatin mind too, which is just where
(34:59):
it comes back to communication.
So in that instance, you cansay, I just wanted to check in.
So I make sureeverything's feeling good.
Do you feel like we'remaking good progress?
Everything's on track.
Yeah, everything's great.
We're good to go.
Okay, then don't readinto their emails, right?
Don't take them foranything more than they're
just an email, right?
Galen Low (35:17):
I had a client who would respond
with, fine, period.
For us, it was like, oh, thatseemed really disappointed
because we would say that.
We'd be like, fine.
But actually, they justwent, fine, that's fine.
Melissa Mo (35:25):
That's fine, I know.
This man I worked withyears ago, talk about just
stone faced all the time.
And I had to bringhim the printed copy
of the ads and stuff.
This was years ago andI worked in the agency.
And I would literallybring this man these ads
and he would go, okay.
And I mean, at least 40to 60 seconds of silence.
(35:48):
Face not moving.
I'm ready to check his pulse.
This is how just still thisman is staring at these ads
and you go, these look good.
That was it.
I was like, okay.
And I just had toget used to it.
That's Waltz.
You just gotta get used to it.
(36:10):
And I doubled thework we do with him.
For the first few months Iworked with him, every time
I was like, Oh I don't, ohgosh, he's gonna do that
weird stare thing again.
Oh, no.
And then it would be good.
And then he started talkingabout how he was doing this
beach body workout programand this and he'd be like, and
that was just babbled, but Ijust came to accept that's how
he was and we were just fine.
Galen Low (36:32):
I love that.
No, it's really good.
The relationships, right?
I mean, it's nuanced, butat the end of the day,
they are relationships andyour clients are human.
Melissa Morris (36:40):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Galen Low (36:42):
Melissa, thanks so much for spending
the time with me today.
It's been so much fun.
So insightful.
Melissa Morris (36:46):
Yes.
Thank you so muchfor having me on.
I think this was a reallygreat conversation.
Galen Low (36:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we'll have you back.
All right folks,there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head on over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
Trust.
It never comes for free.
It's Monday morning and youfind yourself facing down
a new client that looksgrumpier than that cat meme.
The previous project manager cutand ran, and you've inherited
a project that is so far offthe rails that train metaphors
don't even hold up anymore.
Your colleagues adviseyou to go in guns blazing.
"Show 'em who'sboss", they said.
"Don't agree to do anything.
Shut 'em down", they said.
(00:21):
Most PMs would be crumplingunder the pressure at this
point, but you've got asecret weapon — you know
how to establish rapportand start building trust.
Not with gimmicky banterand expensive dinners,
but with authenticity.
You've done your homework,you've come prepared.
You know your stuff and you'reready to position yourself
as their strategic partner.
But before you get downto business, there's
(00:42):
just one thing to do.
You smile confidently and yousay, "Hey, I'm the new project
lead. Nice to meet you. Howwas your weekend?" And you
watch the ice break itself.
If you've struggled tojustify the ROI on building
strong, multidimensionalclient relationships,
this episode is for you.
We're going to talk with aclient services expert about
(01:03):
ways to build trust andrapport with your clients
in a way that impacts yourprojects positively, keeps
your budget and utilizationin line, and makes you an
invaluable asset to your agency.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withThe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
(01:24):
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
Okay, today we're talking aboutclient relationships and the
role that a project manager canplay in developing that kind
of rapport that contributesto the sustained impact that
(01:44):
their projects can have.
With me today is MelissaMorris, a deeply experienced
agency specialist and founderof Agency Authority, a project
management and operationsconsultancy that helps agencies
operate productively andprofitably without the toxicity.
Melissa, thanks forbeing here with me today.
Melissa Morris (02:01):
Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation.
We've already been brainstormingtons of great things, so I'm
really excited to dig in here.
Galen Low (02:07):
Yeah, I know even just like us prepping for
this, we came up with 17 otherpodcasts and event ideas,
so and it's been a blast.
So more to come from us, butI'm really excited to dive in
because one of the things thatyou and I were talking about
was just this notion of Howproject managers, especially
working within agencies or somekind of client services context,
(02:29):
how they can strategically andalso just authentically develop
rapport with their clients ina way that is good for business
and it got me really thinkingbecause like in my community.
Sometimes folks need tovent a little bit, right?
It can be a frustratingexperience working with clients.
They're like, Oh, gosh, it'slike this kind of exasperation.
But overall, it's likenot necessarily something
(02:51):
that needs to be the case.
I thought maybe I'd getyour hot take on a hot
question right off the bat.
And my question basicallyis this is, the relationship
between a client and an agencyproject manager can often
be really quite adversarial.
I'm just thinking like,why is that the case?
And why is it worth investingin building better relationships
instead of just acceptingthat this is just the way
(03:11):
it is in the agency world?
Melissa Morris (03:13):
Yeah, I think there definitely can start
to feel like this us versusthem type of relationship.
They're doing this to me.
They asked for more revisions.
And I think what'simportant to realize is As
the agency, you have beenhired in as the experts.
You have been brought in,you have the expertise.
That means you're the oneleading this relationship.
(03:34):
So that means you can alsolead and guide whether it
feels very adversarial orit feels very friendly and
it feels good and it feelslike a good relationship.
And I think with allrelationships that
starts to come with goodcommunication, really good
communication, really strongclient onboarding to start.
I think getting clear aboutscope, timeline, deliverables,
(03:56):
and staying in goodcommunication with your client
does lead to friendly clientrelationships versus those
that feel like us versus them.
Galen Low (04:03):
I think it's really good because I think a lot
of folks enter the role onpurpose or by accident, right?
And things happen to themand it feels very reactive.
It's okay, client requestscoming in and there's this
pressure to do a thing.
And I don't think a lotof project managers enter
the role thinking ofthemselves as a specialist.
And if they do think ofthemselves as a specialist,
it's not often that theythink of themselves as a
(04:25):
relationship specialist,that they're in the lead.
I like that framing that youare leading the relationship.
It's not happening to you.
Things will happen to you,but like that overall thing is
something that you can control.
I like that sort of twist ofyeah, you can make it positive.
Like it's a perspective, butalso not like delusionally
you can actually do this.
There are things you can doto improve communication,
(04:47):
to make the relationship alittle bit more comfy and fun.
I think a lot of folks sometimeswill say to me, they're like.
Yeah, but clients are clients.
I'm like, why would Iinvest more time to make
this a good relationship?
Sure.
Maybe it'll be easier for me,but it seems like more work.
How do I benefit?
Melissa Morris (05:03):
Yeah.
And we talked about this too.
I am always of the mindset.
It is easier to keep theclients that you do have
than to go find new ones.
And think about it.
Your current clientsare your business.
Let me say it again.
Your current clientsare your business.
If you didn't have anyof your current clients,
would you have a business?
And I think it's easy toforget that because we are
(05:26):
get the project, pass it off,go find the next sale, right?
And I think that can start tobe the mindset, particularly
if you have a agency orbusiness that is a little
more project oriented versusongoing relationship oriented.
But I always think youshould be thinking about
your current clients.
Yes, have a pipeline.
Yes, been in sales.
Yes, be focused onlead gen. Absolutely.
(05:50):
You could also be askingmore of your current clients.
Is there another projectthey can slide into?
Can we make sure theyrenew their agreement?
Can they send you referrals?
Nurturing your currentclients will go a long
way towards a very healthybottom line in your agency.
Galen Low (06:06):
I love that in terms of a sort of relationship
driven business model.
Cause to your point, acquiringa new client is a lot of work.
It's expensive.
There's risk involved.
And when you have existingclients, like that is probably
some of the best way to atleast have an ongoing pipeline
or opportunity to do moregreat work without necessarily
having to go back out, intothe cold calling world.
(06:27):
Yeah.
The thing I'm thinking about inmy head is that at the time of
recording, a lot of folks aresort of worried about layoffs
or have been hit by layoffs.
And some of the stories I hearare that, yeah, like they cut
the whole, project managementteam down like way down, but
they kept the sales team andthey're like, what gives?
And you can see how the modelof yeah, let's just turn
through projects and clients.
Like we need to get new clients.
Actually could paint a, Iwas going to say bad picture,
(06:50):
but you know what I mean?
Like it doesn't necessarilybode well for a project manager.
Melissa Morris (06:53):
Yeah.
It's confusing.
It's a alignment.
You're like, I'mdoing a lot here.
I'm telling, you're tellingme, Oh, nurture your clients.
And they're just worriedabout the sales team.
But I can tell you, Iworked in agencies for
almost 10 years before Istarted my own business.
And during that time at theseagencies, it was my job to grow
the current book of clientsand not go get new ones.
That was sales.
(07:14):
That wasn't my role.
But if I was handed an accountand it was a half a million
dollar account, I was expectedto grow that and look for
opportunities and retain thatrelationship that was absolutely
a part of my job, right?
You even think about the title,account manager, you are the
manager, you're leading it,you're in the charge of it.
You should always be lookingfor opportunities to grow
(07:35):
your book of business withthe client that you have.
Galen Low (07:38):
I love that.
I want to come back to thattoo, because my background has
always been like an accountmanager slash project manager
slash BDE kind of hybrid role.
Melissa Morris (07:45):
Well, we all do in that world, right?
Galen Low (07:47):
Well, I mean, isn't that, that is the sort of the
agency life agency hustle, notnecessarily like the icky side,
but good work begets good work.
And it is sort ofrelationship driven.
That is a way to run an agency.
Profitably, predictably, allthat stuff, and that trickles
down to the staff to have thatstability, to have that level
of comfort where it's not allnew, all chaotic all the time.
And, I can see a lotof benefit to that.
(08:09):
I want to come back to that ina little bit, but I wanted to
touch on, I want to learn a bitmore about Agency Authority.
Like you are the founder there,your consultancy that works
with agencies to look at theirproject management process,
to look at their operations.
Can you tell me a bit aboutwho your team helps and how?
Melissa Morris (08:24):
Yeah, so we serve multi six figure
agencies working to scaletowards a million dollars.
And we do that by helping themget the foundations in place
to support sustainable scaling.
And we do that through aframework called TOP, where
we're focusing on yourteam, your offers, your
processes, and your pipeline.
So while I am a big fanof nurturing your current
clients and maintainingit, I also understand that
(08:45):
sales is a part of that.
So we're looking at these fourpillars because I have found
that these, I mean, even intomillion dollar agencies and
multi million dollar agencies,if you don't have a solid
team, solid offers, solidprocesses, and a solid pipeline,
you've got some work to do.
You're definitely goingto have trouble gaining
sustainably, keeping revenueup, profit margins up.
(09:05):
These are just the four pillarsof really any successful agency.
Galen Low (09:08):
That's really cool.
I like that.
My, the pipeline piece also asa mix in some of the agencies
I worked with, like it was sortof a forecast or a projection
of net new opportunities, right?
That pipeline, but alsostill the like retained
account forecast, right?
What are we projectingfor this account?
I don't know.
Not everyone would say callit a pipeline, but it is set
still, cashflow revenue streamflow of work to keep your
(09:30):
staff doing, what they do well.
I really like that.
I like the targeting ofthe, getting from the multi
six figures into a million.
There's just so muchthat happens for an
agency in that stage.
Melissa Morris (09:41):
There's a lot...
Galen Low (09:42):
...to grow like in a sustainable and predictable way.
Melissa Morris (09:45):
Yes.
There's like thesepivotal benchmarks, right?
Once you get to that first300 K you're like, okay, we've
got something rolling here.
And then you start getting tothat half a million and you're.
You're like, Oh, this is reallygetting a lot more than I
can keep my hands on, right?
And me and my righthand are having trouble.
And then you'rebringing on more team.
And now that team is reallyconfused because they don't
(10:06):
have the institutionalknowledge of the two, three
people who've been supportingyou all along the way.
And oftentimes your clients arechanging the type of clients
you serve and support arestarting to look different.
So how do we lean in to thesenew clients and these new offers
that feel more in alignmentwith the direction we want
to take our agency withoutalienating the people who got
(10:26):
us here and the clients whosupported us to this moment.
And how do we worksome into new packages?
How do we lessen the lease andthank those that just aren't a
good fit for us and doing thatin a really great way so that
we can all still be friendly.
And all that good stuff.
So there's lots of steps toget to that million dollar.
(10:47):
And once you start gettingcloser to that half a million
and beyond, it can feel alittle bit like a wild ride
there for a hot minute.
Galen Low (10:54):
The game changes.
I like even your framingon that because one thing
that I really like aboutwhat you do is sort of this
obsession, if I can say that.
And like obsession aboutlike client relationships,
like what you just saidthere was not about, yeah,
cut off all those clientsthat we don't want anymore.
And, onward and upward, it'slike, how do we retain and,
(11:16):
keep this sort of Good blood forlack of a better word, right?
So between everybody, it'ssomething that factors
in your work a lot.
I was wondering, can you tellme the story of just one of
your client relationships thatkind of sparked this obsession?
Melissa Morris (11:28):
Yeah.
So I was thinking about thisand years ago, I worked at
this boutique agency and webought on a local ice cream
shop as a client and theyhad a teeny tiny budget.
I mean, if it was even a hundredK that was like generous.
And they were struggling.
This couple wasreally struggling with
this ice cream shop.
(11:48):
Sales were really down.
They were actually nearingretirement age and had hopes
of selling the shop, right?
This was part of it.
And they were very stressed.
They were doing, randomlittle ads here, sponsorships
there, and just reallystressed when they came to us.
And I started working withthese folks and I took
their teeny tiny budget,but we got it focused.
(12:10):
We made small shifts, smallchanges, even within the store,
we made some changes for them.
And within about a year, wecompletely turned it around.
Sales were back up.
Yes, sales were back up.
They were doing great.
And I think by year three,they sold the ice cream
shop for the profit.
They went off, they retired,they got their little
house by the river thatthey had been wanting.
(12:31):
And just to Be able to see likethe transformation that this
work can really do for people.
And, they trusted us andI felt that responsibility
to, they hired us.
I think because it was suchlike a intimate, important
moment, like an import, Iknew how important it was
(12:52):
for these people and itfelt really important to me.
It just really was an easy way.
When you're working with abigger corporation or a, we, we
worked with like the countiesrecycling program, there's
all these peoples and there'sbureaucracy and it's hard to
feel as connected to it, right.
But in this instance, I wasjust so connected to it.
It was just like amagnification of how important
(13:13):
these relationships areand what they can mean for
the people you're serving.
And you know how awesome itwas to help these people.
So that was definitelythe obsession.
It all started with somemint chocolate chip.
Galen Low (13:25):
We got paid an ice cream for a few years.
Melissa Morris (13:26):
I would say they did give us a lot of
free ice cream, which alsomay have contributed to this.
We got a lot of free ice cream.
Galen Low (13:34):
But isn't that the seed of it, right?
Like it's like a relationshipwhere you cared, right?
And you had thissort of empathy.
You were along for the ride ofthe mission that they were on.
And by the sounds ofit, it started Rocky.
Yes.
They were like, we need help.
We have a small budget,but we're throwing
it all at you guys.
And I'm sure there werestressful moments of
this is our livelihood.
Like you guys need totake this seriously.
(13:56):
We're freaking out andthey might, not every
email and correspondenceand phone call with them.
I imagine was nice and calmand tickety boo, because...
Melissa Morris (14:03):
Not right.
Galen Low (14:04):
It was their business.
This was their like life plan.
They need to make this happen.
And that can be stressfulin and of itself.
And there could be some agencyfolks and project managers
especially to be like,you're just another client.
I can't be bothered to careabout your retirement plan.
I've got 6, 10, 25 otherprojects on the go.
I just need to shift you on.
Whereas this is somethingwhere you're able to get on
(14:25):
side with their mission, feellike a part of it, and change
your behavior in that way.
And also build that trust.
You use the word trust.
Trust doesn't come forfree in my world, right?
It's not like theywalked in the door and
were like, We trust you.
Here's all our money.
Melissa Morris (14:38):
Right?
Yeah.
No, you're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right.
There were rocky points,but coming back to clear
communication, reallynurturing that relationship,
showing up for them,keeping them in the loop.
We were feeling like in a deeppartnership about this, right?
And it was like theirsuccess was also my success.
I did a good job if they'reselling more ice cream.
(15:00):
And so that connectedness andthat partnership, I think, leads
to even bigger transformationsa lot of the time.
Galen Low (15:08):
I really like that.
Based on what you learnedthere and across other client
relationships, what advicedo you have for folks who
are like leading projects?
Starting off a relationshipand sometimes, a project
manager, especially sometimeswe get dropped in midway.
Maybe that's true for allcrafts within an agency or
anywhere, but, you get droppedin midway, the relationship
isn't necessarily new interms of like agency and
(15:31):
client, but you're new.
What's your top tip forgetting that relationship
started on the right foot?
Melissa Morris (15:35):
Respect that it's new and
treat it like it's new.
So anytime I was taking overan account I always encourage
any agencies or businesses Iwork with, if you are a new PM
or new account manager takingover or on the client side,
there is a new team membercoming on board, especially
when that's a decision maker.
(15:55):
You do a micro onboarding.
You come in.
Hi, I'm new to the account.
I've spent a lot of timereviewing notes and getting
up to speed on your account.
Here's what I see.
Here's where I see ouraccomplishments have been.
Here's what I see isoutstanding for us.
And this is what I'mlooking at as the way ahead.
Does that feel in alignment?
Does that feel correct?
(16:17):
And this opens up the door.
One, they're starting toalready get confidence in you.
Okay, they know what's going on.
They're gettingbrought up to speed.
This is looking good.
Option number two.
When someone was on theway out of that account, we
don't know the circumstance.
Was this personultimately fired?
Had they not beendoing a good job?
Did something happen in theirlife and this transition
(16:38):
happen very quickly?
That is a prime opportunityfor something to slip
through the cracks.
So let's circle the wagonsand make sure everybody's
on the same page.
And it doesn't haveto take long, right?
We don't need a big drawnout thing, but if I could
spend 15 minutes saying,Hey, does this sound right?
Are we all in sync here?
Yep, that sounds right.
Cool, let's go.
Or they can say,Oh, wait a second.
(17:00):
The old account manager wassupposed to be doing X, Y, and
Z, and that wasn't happening.
Ah, okay.
Now we've got an opportunityto really course correct.
Before two, three monthsdown the road, you're fired.
And they're like, yeah,this isn't working out.
We're parting ways.
Galen Low (17:12):
There's so much in there that I love.
Because a, I like this idea ofonboarding a new person from the
client team into your projectno matter when it happens.
They're new, treat it as new.
But I like that it wasn'tlike, tell me everything,
it's do your homework andcome to the table smart.
not omniscient, right?
Don't pretend youknow everything.
But I like that ideaof here's what I see.
(17:34):
Here's what Ithink we should do.
Does that sound right?
And then you can getthrough that if the answer
is no, not quite right.
There's this thing, thenyou have this opportunity
where you understand wherethere's been pain in the past.
I can start building that trustby addressing that pain, not,
bending over backwards to belike, great, you now get, a
phone call on a SAS report everyday until, until the project
is over, not hyperextendingyourself, but you're like, we're
(17:56):
going to address that, and Ithink there's that sort of,
some people would be like, oh,that's customer service one on
one, but I don't know that itis so like basic of a concept.
It's actually quite nuancedand strategic to drive that
conversation and service thecustomer, service your clients.
In a way that is balancedand that is strategic,
that is beneficial.
(18:17):
Not like customer is alwaysright mentality, but you
know what, if we can sortof use this a pain point or
a challenge or something tocare about a lot, to have
the anchor for our trust.
Then let's use that.
Melissa Morris (18:28):
Absolutely.
And I have seen where, becauseI'm the new account manager, I
feel like I have to show up withgreat ideas and push forward and
we're going to crush this andthis, all this enthusiasm and
you can get swept up in that andmiss something really important.
But to your point, we don'twant to swing the pendulum
the other way and be like,all right, loop me in.
What's the status here, guys?
Right?
(18:49):
No.
Galen Low (18:49):
We have to speak.
My billable rate to tellme stuff you already know.
Melissa Morris (18:55):
Exactly.
So that's why I just love thismix of this is what I see.
Is that what you see too?
Galen Low (19:02):
It's really strong positioning.
One of the things that I'vebeen thinking about as well is
just like in a lot of agencies,like I was always an account
manager, project manager hybrid,which meant I was client facing.
I own the relationship,but project managers
specifically in agenciesaren't always client facing.
And sometimes they onlycome to meetings to I have
here in my notes reporton the weather, right?
You're like, here's your projectstatus report back to you, Jane,
(19:26):
back to you, Serene, right?
And it's you don'town the relationship.
You're just thereto do your spiel.
But like, how can a PMcontribute to a healthy client
relationship without maybestepping on the toes of someone
like an account manager,or someone like a business
development manager, when theydon't own the relationship?
What is the right way to findthat balance, not overstep,
not try and take over, andstill maybe get some time on
(19:47):
stage in front of the clientto build that relationship?
Melissa Morris (19:49):
Yeah, that's such a great question
because project managerssometimes have to be bad cops.
Right?
Like the account manager getsto be, Oh, my buddy, the client.
Oh, they need extra time.
And the project manager has tosay, no, there is no extra time.
There's not extra budget.
There's not extra time.
The answer is no.
And so it can be tough thento be bad cop and good cop
(20:13):
at the same time, right?
Like still show up in a waythat is fostering a really
strong client relationship,sticking to the overall agency's
timeline and not have youraccount manager mad at you.
Like you shouldn't, youknow how much they pay us.
They should get an extraround of revisions.
And you're like,no, they shouldn't.
So I do think it is a verypracticed skill set and
(20:34):
definitely requires relationshipmanagement of its own accord
with the project, right?
Because there's a big differencebetween saying no, the deadline
is the end of the week versussaying we have the deadline
at the end of this week.
And if we're going to meet youroverall timeline, we're going
to need this from you by Friday.
What roadblocks are coming upfor you that is making you feel
(20:56):
like this isn't going to happen?
Is there something we docan do to support you?
Hello upsell add on to helpyou with that, to help you
get that across the finishline, because we want to
make your goal, where can wemake up time somewhere else?
So really coming in fromthat problem solving mindset,
what do they always say?
Don't come to me with a problem.
Come to me with solutions.
And I think that is a projectmanager's number one job.
(21:18):
Don't come and say theproject's completely off track.
Come and say, we need tocourse correct, these are
some options that I seethat we can course correct,
which one feels most viable.
Galen Low (21:30):
I love that.
I mean, there's so manypeople who do think, yeah,
their job is to say no.
And no in any relationshipis pretty, it's fickle,
you know what I mean?
Melissa Morris (21:38):
It is fickle.
Galen Low (21:40):
Everything is sort of a negotiation, I
guess I should say, right?
I don't want to make itseem transactional, but The
solutions focus is thereis something we can do.
It might cost more money andit might take more time, but
there's a thing that we cando and, let us be helpful.
And I also like the idea.
I mean, you said somethingabout like good cop, bad cop,
and being, one in the sameand the same person, which
(22:00):
I can definitely relate to,especially as someone who
was like an account managerand project manager in one.
Melissa Morris (22:04):
I wore both hats, as well, at the same time.
Galen Low (22:07):
You're like, it's like you're Gollum and
Smeagol, like talking toyourself going no, but we
want to be able to give them,an extra round of revisions.
No precious time.
It's you have to be twothings, but also I guess the
other thing that's in thereis the fact that an account
manager and a project managercan also function as a team.
And that's probably a wholedifferent episode of the sort
(22:27):
of quote unquote, sometimesadversarial relationship
between sales and accountmanager and project managers.
But when they're workingtogether to make that decision
in advance to be like, we can'tdo endless revisions because
they won't hit their goal.
We'll just like cycle endlessly.
This business will go under,like we just can't do that.
What can we do?
Let's like get on the same page.
Let's decide who's goingto be good cop, bad cop.
(22:49):
Let's decide what our messageis before we go into the room.
So that's nothappening in real time.
And that's so we looklike something that
is, can be trusted.
Because I think the otherthing is when a promise gets
made when someone is outsideof the room, and then It's
Oh, but we can't do that.
It's well, we alreadypromised that we do that.
That's where a lot ofthat friction comes from.
That translates into a negativeclient relationship too.
(23:10):
Because they're like, guys,get your act together.
Can we have revisions or not?
Because I was toldthat we could have it.
Melissa Morris (23:15):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I'm so glad youbrought that up.
That's such a great point.
That project manager,account manager relationship
is so, so important.
If anybody's a parent outthere, okay, United Front.
When we go to thechildren, there's no
TV later, United Front.
Hey, you got me?
You got my back?
I got your back.
(23:35):
Right?
And so that's the sameapproach you guys gotta go in.
We got each other's back.
This is where we stand.
And this is what we'regoing after, right?
Galen Low (23:42):
I like that model.
It's We are parentingtogether, and the client
is the child, okay?
Melissa Morris (23:47):
Right.
Galen Low (23:50):
The client's hey! Wait a second.
Melissa Morris (23:54):
Okay, maybe sometimes I do stand on my feet
a little bit and whine and cry.
Galen Low (23:57):
It's actually a luxury.
If I can get treated likemy kid, that'd be great.
Melissa Morris (24:02):
I know, right?
Galen Low (24:04):
It does raise the question, too, though, in a
world where Billable hoursutilization is a thing, right?
That's part of how an agencyoperates, how the client
service world operates, andif it's not really your kind
of job description or it'snot like something you're
measured on, how do youadvise your agency clients on
balancing these billable hoursversus relationship building?
(24:26):
Can agencies even measurethe ROI of building
this client rapport?
Without also being blinded bythis like dip in utilization,
you're like, Whoa, nowsuddenly you went from 85
percent billable to 70 percentbillable because you're having
conversations with a client.
Like, how do you help youragency clients understand
the value of relationships?
Melissa Morris (24:46):
Yeah, and some of this is which we haven't
quite touched on yet ishaving really solid processes
in place for your business.
So when I'm leadinga client meeting, I
should have an agenda.
And I know the firstfive or six minutes is
maybe small talk, right?
We don't want toget carried away.
We don't want to spend,15, 20 minutes chit
(25:06):
chatting about vacations.
But can we just take amoment to check with them?
How are you doing?
How are you doing?
Oh, I remember yourson plays baseball.
How's his team doing?
Right?
Remember their spouse's names ortheir significant other's names.
Remember their children'snames for the important people
in their life that they're,so and so they mentioned
they're having a birthday,little things like that.
(25:28):
Keep track of that.
And those are small thingsthat you can do when they
mentioned their Best friend'sname, jot it down, right?
Hey, you mentioned your bestfriend loves the Yankees too.
Tell them they'rekilling it this year.
Right?
So just little things likethat, just being thoughtful
in ways like that and spendingthat few minutes, and then to
bring it back to processes,you can also have automations,
(25:49):
you can have checkpointsthat do some of this for you.
So have your client tellthem your birthday and they
automatically get a card in themail or they get an auto email.
Do you know, like it doesn'thave to be, we think it has
to be these grand thingsand it really doesn't.
Just a simple email likethat can go a long way.
Check ins even just,how are we feeling?
(26:10):
How's work going?
Can I support youin a better way?
Like I love an automatedquestionnaire that goes out
midway through an agreementthat just says, Do you feel
like we're meeting your goals?
Is there something Ican be doing better?
When am I doing that feels good?
What can I change?
Even just being heard inthat way helps nurture
that relationship.
And then what you can getback from that is golden.
(26:31):
Oh, we're doing good.
We're on track.
Oh, something's notfeeling right for them.
Okay, let's get on a quick call.
So we just give them a platformto be heard and share their
thoughts on the process,which is an automated form.
Easy.
Galen Low (26:44):
I like that.
And, like sometimes in myhead, like I don't know.
We all get marketed to, andyou have the, you get those
marketing automation emailsthat feel cold, or they forgot
to put in the right variable.
So it says, hi, first name, justchecking in about that thing.
I'm trying to sell you.
And you're like, wow, that'sso cold and impersonal.
I don't want to dothat to my projects.
But actually what you're sayingis it's the thoughtfulness and
care that just gets put into aprocess because you care because
(27:07):
you do want to hear back fromthem and you're not just trying
to sell them, it will probablylead to good things, but.
Really, it's sort of,micro things can actually
make a big difference.
And then you can also blendsome of this relationship
management into the work.
I think people think they'relike, Oh my gosh, well, I
have to go and spend fourhours building my pinboard
of the family tree of myclients, and have a dossier,
(27:28):
that's going to take time.
I'm not gonna be ableto build that time.
I need to go golfing.
I need to hit the golfclub, like with my clients.
And we had to do 18 holesin order for me to do this.
Like I don't have time.
It doesn't have to be big.
It can be smaller.
It just has to guide the work.
Melissa Morris (27:40):
Absolutely, and I've even done small things
where if I know a client isjust really underwater, right,
they had to let go of a teammember, they've got someone
I know they're putting inlong days, I'm going to shoot
them a Starbucks gift card.
Just, here you go, ten bucks,easy, no utilization, not a
big thing I know you've gota lot going on right now,
and they're always like, Oh,thanks, like just knowing that
(28:01):
I was Paying attention, right?
I'm paying attentiongoes a long way.
Galen Low (28:06):
This is sort of an off the cuff question,
but with the clients thatyou work with, do you often
see a project manager whohas a bit of a budget to
do relationship management?
Or does that kind of sitmore with account managers?
Or is everyone just out ofpocket, but they get a word in
terms of like getting the KPIs?
Melissa Morris (28:23):
No, I think I do see a lot of agency owners
that do have some small budgetfor things of this nature to
send a little gift card or tosend a welcome package during
onboarding those sort of things.
So I think when it comesto that, I do think that
should be something that,overall the agency or
business has addressed.
I don't think anybody shouldfeel pressure to do that.
(28:43):
Out of their own pocket,and it wouldn't even have,
that's something I like todo, but it could even just
be an email that says, Hey,I know you've been really
swamped and we talked about yougetting that to me on Friday.
It actually isn't goingto change my workflow.
If you get it tome Tuesday morning.
Right?
Like it's okay, right?
Check with yourproject manager first.
(29:04):
Don't change timelines.
But I think the point is wecan just do small things to
let our clients know thatwe're thinking about them and
that they're important to usand it doesn't have to take
a lot of time and it doesn'thave to take a lot of money.
Galen Low (29:16):
Love that.
We've been talking about Idon't know, pleasant clients
and client relationships.
Folks that, yeah, it might notalways be cozy and good and
nice, but you know, there'sways that we can build trust
and build this relationship.
And I know that somefolks are listening to,
and they're saying, butsometimes clients just suck.
(29:37):
And it's true.
There are bullies out there.
There are toxic clients.
There are some clients thatjust simply are the worst.
And yeah, we could invest alot of time sort of building
up the relationship, butthey might not actually be
good for culture, mentalhealth, business in general.
And what do we do there?
Melissa Morris (29:55):
Yeah.
So I do believe sometimes thereare just bad clients and this
is probably going to come asa shock to some people, but.
You can fire clients.
Galen Low (30:06):
Ooh.
Melissa Morris (30:08):
It's allowed.
Galen Low (30:12):
I want to dive into that more.
I mean, gosh,that's another one.
That's potentiallyanother podcast episode.
But maybe we hintat it a little bit.
Who can fire a client?
Because I know a lot ofproject managers out there
just went, Oh, yes, please.
Yeah.
Can we fire them all?
Melissa Morris (30:26):
All of them.
All of them.
All of the clients.
Done.
Galen Low (30:29):
Yeah.
They got to go.
Melissa Morris (30:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Galen Low (30:31):
How does that decision get made?
Melissa Morris (30:33):
Yeah, so it's definitely not one
you make lightly, right?
This whole conversation has beenabout nurturing your clients.
And so there should definitelybe a lot of internal checkpoints
and conversations beforeyou ever get to the point of
considering firing a client.
And this is where goodprocesses, policies will
(30:53):
really play an important role.
So you can come backto, are we on scope?
Are we being goodcommunicators about timeline?
Are we being goodcommunicators about budget?
Are we doing everything we can?
And make sure you're beingclear about it because
sometimes you think you'rebeing clear and you're really,
you're not being clear, right?
(31:13):
Well, I told him I neededit as soon as possible.
That's not clear, right?
Tuesday by 11 a. m. is clear.
So I always recommend you'retaking those steps first.
Are we being very clear?
Have we had a conversationwith the client, like
a realignment call?
Have we gotten them onthe phone and said, we
want to revisit scope.
We want to revisit.
(31:33):
We're not going to sayboundaries necessarily
to them, but whatworking hours are, right?
Whatever, however theymay be in violation we may
want to have a conversationwith them about tone or who
they're reaching out to.
We want you to have thebest point of contact.
The best way to do thatis always reach out to
your account manager.
We can't have you messagingthe project manager and the
design team for additional time.
They're not going to know.
(31:55):
So the best way to getyou the best answer.
So really address whatare the problem points.
Have we been veryclear with them?
On how we can course correct,how we had conversations, how
we given them time, how didthey receive that information?
So lots of conversationsalong the way.
And then at that point, ifthings are just still really not
(32:15):
working well, the client is justnot on board with this and just
continuing to push boundaries,scope, whatever that looks like,
then you do need to take itto leadership, whether that's.
the owner directly,a middle person.
And then of course alwaysyou have to look back
at your contract, right?
Yes, I say we can fire clients,but only if your contract says
that you can as well, right?
(32:37):
Like you always want to makesure legally you're fulfilling
all of your obligations, whichcomes back to good processes.
Do you have a clear contract?
Do you have a clearscope statement of work?
So as long as all of that, And,legally we're doing what we're
supposed to do, then yeah, youtake it to leadership and let
that decision get made there.
Galen Low (32:55):
I appreciate that due diligence and like the
gravity of the decision too.
It's are we doingeverything we can?
Because it is possible foran agency to make a client a
bad client by thinking thatthey're actually doing a good
job when they're actuallynot, turn the mirror on
yourself first and then okay.
Now let's move theconversation forward.
Melissa Morris (33:12):
Absolutely.
Galen Low (33:13):
It's funny because this sort of quote
or a thing that I wastold pops to mind, right?
No one trains a clientto be a good client.
So there's that thing too.
And that's a wholedifferent thing as well.
But I want to circle back onsomething you said earlier,
actually something you'vebeen saying throughout,
there's such good tips aboutrelationship management.
And I know a lot offolks are like, no one
trained me to do this.
I didn't know I could buy agift card or it was okay to
(33:35):
send an email to check in.
If my client's having ahard time with restructure,
no one taught me to quoteunquote, walk the halls.
I think maybe account managersprobably do get trained this
way, but anyone outside ofthat role, like a project
manager, if they want to learnmore about some of these like
techniques and like the skillsneeded to nurture relationships,
where can they go?
Melissa Morris (33:54):
Yeah, that's a really great question because
this isn't something I feellike that is taught or shared.
I always think about it.
I think we canovercomplicate it, though.
Just think aboutany relationship.
What is any relationship?
How is that successful?
Well, I'm clear.
I'm kind.
I pay attention.
(34:14):
I show up.
Right?
So I think even just notovercomplicating it and
just remembering thatyour clients are humans.
And they have, I guess youcan think of that saying to
everybody's, got something goingon, you don't know anything
about or walk a mile in theirshoes, and then you'll know.
And it's important to, withthe internet, like we're
like, we're not geographicallyindependent anymore, right?
(34:37):
So we are working with peoplein different time zones,
with different backgrounds,with different cultures,
different continents at times.
So sometimes what's feelingoh, they're very short.
Just culturally, maybethat's how it is, right?
And that's notanything negative.
That's, they don'tmean anything by it.
So I think trying to keep thatin mind too, which is just where
(34:59):
it comes back to communication.
So in that instance, you cansay, I just wanted to check in.
So I make sureeverything's feeling good.
Do you feel like we'remaking good progress?
Everything's on track.
Yeah, everything's great.
We're good to go.
Okay, then don't readinto their emails, right?
Don't take them foranything more than they're
just an email, right?
Galen Low (35:17):
I had a client who would respond
with, fine, period.
For us, it was like, oh, thatseemed really disappointed
because we would say that.
We'd be like, fine.
But actually, they justwent, fine, that's fine.
Melissa Mo (35:25):
That's fine, I know.
This man I worked withyears ago, talk about just
stone faced all the time.
And I had to bringhim the printed copy
of the ads and stuff.
This was years ago andI worked in the agency.
And I would literallybring this man these ads
and he would go, okay.
And I mean, at least 40to 60 seconds of silence.
(35:48):
Face not moving.
I'm ready to check his pulse.
This is how just still thisman is staring at these ads
and you go, these look good.
That was it.
I was like, okay.
And I just had toget used to it.
That's Waltz.
You just gotta get used to it.
(36:10):
And I doubled thework we do with him.
For the first few months Iworked with him, every time
I was like, Oh I don't, ohgosh, he's gonna do that
weird stare thing again.
Oh, no.
And then it would be good.
And then he started talkingabout how he was doing this
beach body workout programand this and he'd be like, and
that was just babbled, but Ijust came to accept that's how
he was and we were just fine.
Galen Low (36:32):
I love that.
No, it's really good.
The relationships, right?
I mean, it's nuanced, butat the end of the day,
they are relationships andyour clients are human.
Melissa Morris (36:40):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Galen Low (36:42):
Melissa, thanks so much for spending
the time with me today.
It's been so much fun.
So insightful.
Melissa Morris (36:46):
Yes.
Thank you so muchfor having me on.
I think this was a reallygreat conversation.
Galen Low (36:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And we'll have you back.
All right folks,there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head on over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
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