March 11, 2025 • 31 mins
Dealing with a toxic client can drain your team, hurt your business, and feel impossible to escape. But what if the problem isn’t you—it’s them? If you’re stuck in a difficult client relationship and unsure what to do next, this episode is for you.
Host Galen Low is joined by agency expert Melissa Morris to discuss when and how to fire a client, along with strategies for protecting your team and business. Tune in to learn how to navigate tough client dynamics and set your agency up for success.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Melissa on LinkedIn
- Check out Agency Authority
- Book a free discovery call with Melissa
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Galen Low (00:00):
You slam your laptop shut.
For the 17th meeting running,your client contact has
gaslit you and your team fora deadline that the client
themselves was responsible for.
They're escalating to your CEO.
You've got two daysto build your defense.
You're fuming, but youstart going through
old emails and reports.
The client is a huge account.
When they say jump, youragency asks how high.
(00:22):
In your search, youstumble across reports
from other projects.
You find a complaint thatwas lodged against the client
contact by a previous team.
You see hints that pastteam members may have quit
because of this individual.
And it would appear thatvery few projects that this
person has been involved inhave ever been profitable.
You notice that everypast project team has
suffered what you and yourteam are suffering now.
(00:44):
It's not you, it's them.
It's toxic, it's systemic, andit's doing real damage to almost
every area of the business.
If you've been dealing withchallenging and toxic client
relationships and are atan impasse about what to do
about it, keep listening.
We're going to be tacklingthe question of when and how
to fire a client, as well assharing some tips and techniques
(01:05):
for baking support into yourclient services process.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withThe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected, so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
(01:26):
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
Okay, today we are talkingabout firing a client.
Specifically, the process andbusiness considerations around
firing a client that maybe ishaving a toxic impact on the
people, the operations, andthe finances of an agency.
(01:47):
Back in the studio with metoday is Melissa Morris,
founder of Agency Authority,and herself, an agency project
management and operations andclient services specialist
who has lived the agencylife for well over a decade.
I say well over a decade, in thegreen room I was like, I want
to describe you as seasoned, butdoes that make you sound old?
And now it was like, Oh gosh,she's she was there when the
(02:09):
first agency was created.
Yeah, that one backfired on me.
Anyways, thank you, Melissa,for being here in the
studio with me again today.
Melissa Morris (02:19):
Despite the lovely intro, I'm
really excited to be here.
I've got to be done earlythough, my bedtime with
my seasoned age and all.
Galen Low (02:28):
We'll give you some time.
Yeah, we'll each put ourrespective dentures into the
into the bubbly water, and yeah.
Actually, you we didtouch on this topic in
our last conversation.
You've been on thepodcast before.
We were talking aboutbuilding rapport with clients
and how we can build goodtrusting relationships.
And we ended with thisidea that actually some
clients are just terrible.
(02:48):
And I don't mean intrinsicallyevil and terrible.
I mean, some folks listeningare like, are you sure?
But sometimes itjust isn't a fit.
It's not working.
And I think that it's somethingthat we don't discuss a lot.
Some people are like, Oh,I didn't know it was an
option to fire a client.
They give us money.
We need money to operate.
I think we need them,but also there's so much
damage that can take place.
And there's a lot ofrepercussions that could go
(03:09):
along with it, frankly, yeah,just aren't always seen.
So I thought maybe let'sjust get right into
it, this idea, right?
Firing a client.
For some agency projectteams it's a fantasy.
But sometimes, it is a necessarybusiness decision that agencies
don't even keep on the table.
So I thought I'd open withjust the big question, which is
(03:31):
When is it okay to want to firea client and when is it not?
Melissa Morris (03:35):
So, I don't know about you, but
every time you say that,I feel I want to go dun.
Galen Low (03:37):
Dun.
Melissa Morris (03:38):
Dun dun.
So, to answer that questionthough, when is it okay to fire
a client and when is it not?
And I would say it's alwaysokay to fire a client.
You're the agency owner withthe caveat of are we honoring
any legal rights, contractualsort of obligations, right?
We would never want toget ourselves in any
(04:01):
sort of legal trouble.
So make sure you'repaying attention there.
Now, with that being said, dowe want to fire lots of clients?
Probably sometimes, right?
Depending on the day, the phaseof the moon, sometimes we're
ready to go on a firing spree.
And so I think what we need totalk about here too is Maybe
not so much when is it okay,but when is it appropriate?
(04:24):
Because that isdifferent, right?
That's a different mindset.
So first we need to come tothis mindset of it's okay.
It's okay to fire a clientas long as we're doing
it legally and ethicallyand all of those things.
But should we?
Do they just drive us bonkers?
Or are they actuallydoing something wrong?
And if you listen to theother episode, we talked
(04:45):
a lot about how importantclient relationships are
and really nurturing those.
So you'll know I am a big fanof keeping the clients you have
and maintaining relationships.
But we also know sometimesthere are just bad clients.
And there comes a pointwhere it doesn't matter how
much they're paying you.
It's just not working.
They're never going to be happywith the product you deliver.
(05:06):
They're always going tomiss their deadlines.
They're going toreschedule meetings.
They're going to email youat all hours of the night.
And despite your bestefforts, they're just
not coming on board.
Galen Low (05:17):
I like the spiciness of that.
Doesn't matter how much moneythey're paying you because,
I've worked in agencies whereit's basically do whatever.
They make up 70 percent of ourrevenue or whatever, right?
Hopefully not that much ofa balance, but their role
in our ability to operateis significant enough that
anything they ask for is okay.
But that also can be bad.
And then I've heard storiestoo, or similarly, they're
(05:39):
like, Oh, we need this clientto we must do everything.
And actually theylifted the hood.
They realized actuallythe client was bad
for business period.
Not bad for like culture andlike everyone's mental wellbeing
and health and all that stuff.
But actually they weren't makingmoney off that client, even
though the numbers were big.
Melissa Morris (05:54):
I'm so glad you brought that up and we are so
good at coming up with topics.
So we'll table this.
But I see that all the timewhere an agency said, that's
our biggest client, whateverthey want, they get, we do.
They're keeping thelights on around here.
They make up so much revenueand we start time tracking and
digging into those reports.
I'm like, did you know you'reworking for $22 an hour?
Galen Low (06:16):
Yes.
Melissa Morr (06:17):
Did you know that?
And they're, Oh my gosh, what?
So absolutely right there.
Sometimes top line doesn'tmatch up with bottom line.
Galen Low (06:25):
The other thing that I'm reading in there
I'm hearing from you is thatsome of these decisions, like
it's a team sport in a way.
Right.
And even just to put a, aproject management lens on
it, a lot of project managersworking in an agency, where
that is the directive, right?
It's do whatever.
This client gives us lots ofmoney and you feel helpless.
And you're like, I don'thave the authority to fire
a client, but guess what?
The agency owner can't really doit on their own either, right?
(06:48):
We have to involve legal.
We have to talk to the teams.
And it actually is thisthing that doesn't get
unilaterally decided.
I mean, sometimes I'm sure itdoes, but most of the time,
in my experience, it's notsomething that gets unilaterally
decided by one person.
You don't come to workone day and be like, Oh,
remember that client?
Yeah, they're gone.
It's something that isconsidered, it's a conversation.
And there's multipleperspectives that
need to go into it.
(07:09):
I wanted to maybe zoom outa bit because you have deep
first hand experience managingclients in the agency world.
And maybe without namingnames, what's the worst client
experience you've ever had?
And how did you turn thattoxic experience into
a learning experience?
Melissa Morris (07:25):
So I want to share an example and I think
this is a really good one totalk about because we can have
bad clients that can be savedand turned into good clients.
Sometimes there are badones that we need to fire.
But I want to share a storyabout a terrible client.
So years ago, when I workedin the agency world as,
account manager, I wasdefinitely more junior.
(07:47):
I was in a junior role, but Iwas working on our agencies.
One of our biggestaccounts, we were doing the
regional advertising forthe local cable company.
And I was a little morejunior, but getting more
responsibility and the cablecompany had brought on a new
marketing coordinator as well.
So we were tasked with gettingan ad done a very simple ad.
I mean, this thing shouldhave taken no more than
(08:09):
like an hour or two tops.
We spent probably two weeksgoing back and forth and racked
up, I think almost 15 hours.
She would send me an email,Hey, change the picture to this.
And then, hey, changethis copy edit to that.
Hey, I just noticed thecopyright date is wrong.
Can you go ahead and justpiecemealing all these little,
(08:31):
then she changed the photoback somewhere around revision
number seven, driving me crazy.
And then finally we get,we get this ad done.
Then the bill goes out.
Her boss calls my boss.
She's in trouble, and so amI. I'm in a lot of trouble.
The VP of the agency islooking at me and they're
(08:52):
going, What did you do?
I'm like, she had all theserevisions, she was piecemealing
them to me I don't understandand she goes, you're in charge,
you should have led this.
Did you tell her how this wasgoing to impact the budget
of this ad? Oh, no, I didn't.
Okay, did you tell her sheneeded to collect all of her
revisions at one time andsend them to you at one time?
(09:15):
I think I forgot tomention that also.
Oh, okay.
So this is on you as well.
And so this is where wetalk about, there's always
careful consideration.
Not that I had the authority,but in that moment, what
I've been like, you're fired,but it felt that way, right?
But this comes back to yourprocesses, having conversations,
(09:37):
having a plan in place.
So now with that being said,if that conversation had
looked like, did you continueto tell them how this was
going to impact the timeline?
Yes.
Did you tell them that excessiverevisions were going to incur
a lot of additional charges?
Yes.
I told them that.
Did you tell them that?
Yes.
Okay, then I did my part.
(09:57):
That wasn't on me.
Then that was on the client.
And so this is where we cansee if we're doing a good job
managing for being really clearabout what's needed, we're
working through the process,then that will tell us Is it
a bad client or are we justnot managing things very well?
And then at that point,it's decision time.
Do we fire or do we keep?
Galen Low (10:19):
It's funny because in our last episode, we
were talking about accountmanager skills that project
managers are never taught.
And then now the reverse islike the project management
skills that accountmanagers are never taught.
Yeah, exactly.
It's going to impact the budget.
You got to tell them that.
You're like, Oh yeah, okay.
But I was, an account manager.
I wasn't trained that way.
That's really interesting.
So that one turned aroundor ended up being it's
(10:41):
still one of those clients?
Melissa Morris (10:43):
Oh, well, I will say eventually that
working relationship did end.
We'll just put it at that.
Galen Low (10:47):
Fair enough.
And I think that'sthe, the thing.
There's work to be done to,maybe not always salvage, I
guess, but I think just to atleast try make the attempt to
salvage, I guess, because we'vebeen talking about throughout
this episode and last is thatlike establishing and growing
these relationships, liketime and energy and money
(11:08):
has been invested into this.
And it's expensive inmore ways than just money
to just discard them.
So I think that's a, like areally interesting thought
that I don't think alwayscrosses people's mind when
they're thinking, gosh, we'vegot to fire this client.
It's not am I doingeverything I can to make
sure things are clear?
And could this ship be righted?
And is it worth it?
I thought I'd maybe ask aroundthe sort of toxic client side of
(11:30):
things, because sometimes maybeit's not that toxic, right?
And it's addressable.
What are some telltale signsthat a relationship actually
is toxic, that they area toxic client, having a
toxic impact on your team,yourself, your business?
Melissa Morris (11:45):
Yeah, and you know it's funny because the
clients that always push backon timeline, are always late
to meetings, never get uswhat we need, blowing up our
email, and so those bad clientscan be very easy to spot.
But there are bad clientsthat are much harder to spot
because they're a littlebit more manipulative.
They're pushy in liketheir own little way.
(12:05):
And I had one of these,unfortunately, probably two
years ago at this point.
This woman was never rude to me.
She was not emailingme after hours.
She met her deadlines.
But she was routinelytrying to push the scope
of work over and over.
So I would get on a call withher and she, we'd be talking,
(12:28):
you do X, Y, and Z, right?
Nope.
That's not included.
And the scope, that'snot what we offer.
Right.
So I'm operating integrity.
I had a clear scope of work.
I am confirming like thisis not what's included.
Okay.
A week later we get on the call.
So you guys will do X,Y, and Z for me, right?
No, that's not whatwe're going to do.
(12:49):
Week after week, this typeof behavior is continuing
where it's always,you'll do that, right?
Or I'm going to sendyou over the things.
I can get those to you todayso you could get this together
by like Thursday, right?
No.
And it got to the point whereI just knew every time I got on
that call, I would have a pitin my stomach and I knew she's
(13:12):
gonna push the scope here likeevery time and sure enough every
time she did and so it did getto a point where I'm looking
back at my scope of work.
I'm looking back at mycontract and I'm like, we're
all dying here and I did.
I had to send that email.
Here's what I have as our scope.
Here is what wehave accomplished.
(13:33):
Here's what we're going towrap up and this is our end
date and I, was in my contract.
I still wanted to deliveron my promises to her, make
sure I was honoring whatI said I would, but I was
also like, we're all done.
So I think it's easy to stopthe people who are egregious
and it can be harder tofind the people who are
(13:56):
just being sneaky about it.
So I wanted to point that out.
Galen Low (14:00):
That's really interesting because yeah,
like in my past, thelike most notable client
that we ever fired at theagencies I was at was the
client that was egregious.
The team came back cryingevery time there's folks who
maybe talking to a professionalabout their experiences there.
And those are like they'relike, Oh yeah, we got to
do something about this.
(14:20):
But the like more insidious, andI was going to say manipulative.
But I think the thing aboutthat story of yours is
that it's this sort of likeconstant imbalance that it's
never like a level footing.
It's never going tobecome a partnership.
It's abusive in the sense thatevery time I'm going to be like,
Hey, give me your lunch money.
And even if you sayno, I'm still going
to ask you next time.
And even if it's not, if they'renot getting your lunch money,
(14:43):
it's still bullying behavior.
And it's, it's not a leveland even relationship.
Melissa M (14:49):
That's exactly right.
Galen Low (14:50):
I'm curious, like from that perspective, I,
I get the whole wrappingthe scope and being like,
yeah, we're done here.
In the event that it'ssomething that needs to
be escalated to, should wefire this client decision?
Like what can someone onthe front line, an account
manager or a project manager,someone on the project team,
what can they do to voicethese concerns so that it does
get looked at and addressed?
Melissa Morris (15:10):
Yeah, I think the thing is to focus on the
facts because it can be easy to.
When oh, well,they're just rude.
Well, what does rude look like?
Well, their emailsare really short.
Well, maybe they don'tlike to type emails, right?
Like I can't fire a clientbecause they said, I think
we talked about this too.
You've gotten clients who wouldrespond with like fine, period.
(15:30):
We can't fire somebody becausethey don't like to type.
Do you know?
I think especially, even ifyou're the person who would
be making the decision, butespecially if you are bringing
this to other people, maybewith the recommendation
that I don't think thisis a good relationship.
I think it's importantto focus on facts.
We had to rearrange a deadlinebecause they kept neglecting
(15:51):
to get us what we want andthis is how it impacted the
team and I had to work late.
They said that they were goingto pay an additional fee, but
when they got the invoice,they called and complained
and we ended up cutting thatand we didn't pay it after all
because they said they didn'tunderstand that there was a fee.
These are the emails where Ifollowed up and said that their
deadline was Tuesday and theystill, on Thursday said, Oh,
(16:14):
I didn't know you needed it.
So just having some reallyclear data points and focusing
on the facts is going tobe really important to make
sure that you are making theright decision and not doing
from that, from a chargedplace or an emotional place.
Galen Low (16:29):
That's a really good point.
I mean, I think my knee jerkreaction was it's too bad that
our, like whatever impact tomental health and, or and some
of the less tangible sort ofimpacts isn't something that
an agency would take seriously,but actually I'm like, hold on.
I had to pause myself.
I'm like, you still have tomake this rational case because
(16:49):
it can still encompass that.
Right.
And like you said, right, it'slike, because of this, the team
and I had to work late and thisis the impact and it's factual
and not to say that you have topull the emotion out of it, but
to say that this is a decisionthat requires facts to make sure
that, cause it impacts not justyou, it impacts people working
on this project, you're goingto fire this client mid project.
Guess what's going to happen.
(17:10):
Those folks all go on bench.
It's something thatneeds to be considered.
And I do like that approachof saying listen, just make
sure we gathered the factsbecause someone on the
outside, it's hard for themto evaluate and say, yeah.
Okay.
We'll just fire thatclient tomorrow.
Like I trust you.
It's a bit more considered thanthat, even if they do trust you.
So I do that sort ofgathering of facts.
Melissa Morris (17:29):
Absolutely.
And I think we're both inagreement to your mental health
and wellbeing is an importantpiece of this puzzle, but I
can tell you it is going to bea very rare instance where the
only way they are showing up ina toxic way is with your mental
health and wellbeing, right?
Someone who is showingup in that way is almost
always showing up in factualways as a bad client.
(17:52):
It's going to be rare wherethey're just like emotionally
showing up as a bad client.
That just seems to bethe way that works.
Maybe it never happens, butI'm sure sometimes it happens.
But to speak to that, ifyou are feeling like, like
with me, I'm like, I'vegot this pit in my stomach.
Why do I feel like I'malways like in this
weird defensive mode?
(18:13):
Those are very uncomfortable.
And I love my clients.
Big fan of client relationships.
That's not like me to feellike, oh, I do not like.
And then when I looked under thehood and said, what is making
me uncomfortable about this?
Oh, here are the data drivenfacts that are coming up.
She's pushing scope.
(18:33):
She's pushing timelines, right?
Okay.
I see now.
And so then I could say youwant, but I don't offer.
So it makes sense forthis relationship to end.
Galen Low (18:44):
I like that it it's tying it back to that
story where it was insidiousand almost hard to put a
finger on, but it's there.
And actually this sort of,my story where it's like the
team came back from everymeeting crying multiple times.
I'm like, Oh yeah, actuallythat's the like big culmination
of stuff we probably shouldhave identified way earlier and
started gathering facts aboutway earlier and some of it, I
(19:06):
know you're huge on process andfrankly, like we didn't have a
process for this and actually alot of the agencies that I have
worked with do not have a formalclient off boarding process.
Even from identifyingproblem areas all the way
through to yeah, talking tothe legal team and figuring
out, are we contractuallyokay to take this action?
(19:26):
And then also even that processof like, how do we support
the team with the fallout?
Yes, emotionally, but alsolike financially, right.
It's do they still havejob security after this
client went away and howcan we talk about it?
How do you advise youragency clients and agency
teams to just be like.
Better set up with some formalprocess and policy around
(19:47):
ending client relationships andsupporting the team that, ends
up on bench or having a sort ofunfinished project as a result?
Melissa Morris (19:56):
Yeah.
So I think there's acouple of things there.
One is I'm a huge fan ofa client communication
SOP for all agencies.
And this is somethingI recommend all
agency owners have.
And it addresses things likewhat to do when your client
has excessive revisions,when or when not to introduce
a rush fee, when do I needto escalate a project or a
(20:19):
concern up the ladder andget it to senior management.
So sometimes that looks anytimea client misses a meeting,
you need to let somebody know.
If you send two emails andyou don't hear back from
them, you need to let us know.
So sometimes even just trying tofind those things early on can
either help us course correct.
(20:39):
If there's just been, in myearlier and fiasco, right?
Sometimes like just sometraining gets us back on
track, or sometimes we'regoing to go the direction like
the client that I ultimatelyhad to part ways with.
But let's start figuringthat out early on.
I think also to that SOPshould have templates that
your account managers andproject managers can use.
(21:00):
So that if you do have a clientwho's feeling a little pushy
and they send that kind of bullyemail, let's just give them a
template that makes it easy forthem to be firm about what is
not going to happen or what isgoing to happen and they can
lean on that so then they don'thave to feel the weight of that.
And then as the agency orbusiness owner, you know
that this is getting handledin the way you want it to.
(21:22):
So I think really empoweringthem with some very clear,
like we've talked aboutprocesses, policies, what
does this look like at theagency is a really great start
to help someone navigatingand dealing with that.
And then when it comes tothat actual off boarding
moment where it's this is notworking and we are parting
ways with these people havinga very clear action plan
(21:44):
of what that looks like.
These are the tasks wehave agreed to finish.
This is what we know isnot going to get finished.
This is what we're going tohand off and then this is the
date that we are passing thebaton and be very clear in that
email that says this concludesour working relationship.
That email has those words.
(22:05):
It doesn't say hereare your final files.
Let us know if you needanything or here's that
thing we talked about.
Thanks.
No, this concludes ourworking relationship.
Be very clear about that.
Don't leave that door open forsomething else to sneak in.
Galen Low (22:21):
The two things I love most about that are one,
the SOP actually is built in away that services information
early rather than after,like when it's happening in
case of fire break glass.
Like it's like there'sa check and balance
there for communication.
But also that wordingof this concludes our
working relationship.
I've definitely been on anumber of projects where I
find out six months down theroad that the support team
(22:44):
is still getting requests andthey're still processing them
and they're like still workingon documentation together.
That should havebeen handed off.
And yeah, in fairness, Iwas like, sometimes the
communication wasn't there.
The clarity wasn't therethat like, this is the
end date wasn't spoken.
And there's so many thingsthat sometimes we feel
uncomfortable speaking outloud or having a conversation
about, I guess the other thingI love is that notion that,
Yes, and there's a template tohelp you have firm language.
(23:07):
You don't have to come upwith it on your own and we'll
stand behind it because it'ssomething that we created as an
organization to address this.
And it takes a lot of that edgeoff that pressure of being like,
I have to like, say it's over.
Like I'm breaking up with myclient and like I'm spending
hours agonizing over how todo it, but to have it as,
okay, this is our process.
I might tailor this templatea bit, but you know, it's the
(23:28):
firm language we use becauseit creates clarity and draws a
line in the sand of what we'redoing and what we're not doing
to conclude this relationship.
Melissa Morri (23:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even one of thosetemplates could even look
like a pass the buck one.
And I don't mean thatin a negative way.
But if you know that somethingreally need to go to leadership
or conversations about firingor on deck here, they could
even have a canned emailso they can feel empowered
to say I want to let youknow, I've received this.
But I do need todiscuss this internally.
We're going to get backto you by X date, and
(23:59):
then you can send that.
So that also gives you a littlebreathing room to reflect
on what's going on here.
Is this bullying?
Are they pushing scope?
What's happening?
I need to take this internallyso you can respond to them
in a very timely fashion,but also let them know.
What are they, no answeris still an answer, right?
Or no update is still anupdate is what like that
(24:20):
project management turn, right?
Yeah, I just want to letyou know, I'm tracking
this, but that's all I'mdoing is tracking this.
Galen Low (24:27):
And I think it's it's such an important thing for
folks to hear where, especiallyin the agency world and client
services in general, you feelpressure, no matter what role
you play on the team, youfeel pressure to like, give a
response right away, you shouldknow, shouldn't you, they've
hired you as experts, you shouldhave the answer right now.
And the reality is youdon't have to, but you can
acknowledge gotcha, right?
Message received.
(24:48):
We're going to takesome time with this.
And that goes for thingsthat are positive.
And it goes for things thatare negative and, escalatory
and inflammatory, and all thoseother, all the authorities.
A lot of folks listeningwill be like, yeah, either
we're already good at doingthat where I work or man,
doesn't that sound amazing?
We're going to startworking on this right away.
(25:09):
Honestly, for any team, notjust agency teams, but any team
working in a client servicescontext, sometimes they feel
stuck in a toxic relationshipand their organization isn't
willing to do anything about it.
What can an individual doto look out for themselves
in that situation?
Melissa Morris (25:25):
It's similar to the response I said before,
focus on facts and reallypull up that scope of work.
Do really adhere to processesto a T. Don't skip a follow up.
Don't fudge a meetingor here or there.
Really lean into the templatesand the processes that the
agency has provided you.
(25:45):
And if that is a gap,Then request that.
If they're not going to firethe client, then maybe we
can request that they equipus with the tools to better
manage or wrangle the client.
So I think that'sabsolutely a fair request.
And I can tell you, I wouldthink most business owners
would be in support ofhonoring that request, right?
Because if the idea here is no,the client gets what they want,
(26:07):
the client needs to be happy.
It will help me make our clienthappy if you give me some
templated emails that speak torounds of revisions, so that I
can make sure I'm being reallyclear about what we need to get
from them to finish our work.
So then really you're coming tothem asking for some resources
to make the client happy, whichis ultimately what they want.
Galen Low (26:27):
I mean, I like that sort of, yeah, or requests
to say, Hey, listen, likethis is going to improve
things for the business.
And actually, coming at it fromboth sides, like having been
part of an agency leadershipteam, I know this is like to
manage expectations for folks.
I know that it doesn'talways get received well
by a leadership team,sometimes behind the scenes.
They're like, oh mygosh, this creates work.
Now we have to go and writethese templates and ah, I
(26:49):
wish, we just had peoplewho could figure it out.
And I think that's like a,I mean, it's probably not
everyone's reaction, butI've seen that reaction at
a leadership level, but I'vealso seen it then net out
later to be like, ah, sure.
Glad we did that.
I'm really happy that personraised that it did create work.
Don't get me wrong.
Everything is disruption ishard for us to deal with as
humans operating a business aswell, but net benefit is there.
(27:10):
And I think that's the importantbit is that it might seem like
you've created work for somebodyby requesting this, but in
the end it does net out as abenefit for people, for the
business, just for clarity inthe relationships as a forcing
function for maturing a businessfor lack of a better word.
Not to say that the thing thatpushes a business forward is
to have toxic clients, butcertainly considering some of
(27:33):
these SOPs, whether they'vehappened in the past a lot
or not, just having a wayto deal with these things
that do happen in business.
Melissa Morris (27:40):
Absolutely.
And that might even just looklike here are the emails I
sent when I'm following up andchecking in and they missed
the deadline every time anddesigners mad at me and the
copywriters mad at me and thingsare happening last minute.
What should I change in theseemails to be more clear?
Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
Maybe I think I'mbeing really clear.
(28:01):
Let me know.
This is the processI've been following.
I send this email.
I wait two days.
I send this email.
I send these reminders.
Where am I missingthe mark here?
And then that's a goodopportunity for them to
look and, Oh, you've evengiven us the process.
Oh, here's where actuallyyou're not really clear.
I'm reading this a completelydifferent way, or it really
(28:22):
might start to shine a lightand say, Oh, you're not just
being a squeaky wheelie.
This client sucks.
What are we goingto do about it?
Galen Low (28:28):
It is the escalation, but it's also
asking for feedback and thatdue diligence that we talked
about, where it's are we doingeverything we can to make
this a good relationship?
And if it's still notworth it, when the data
shows that it's not worthit, let's have a pathway
to do something about it.
Melissa Morris (28:41):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it all comes backto processes, right?
I think clarity and a processfor handling it, I think is the
biggest takeaway here because itis, it's not an easy decision.
We spent a whole episodetalking about how important
your clients are, nurturingthose relationships.
And so it's not somethingwe want to do willy nilly,
(29:01):
but it is important torecognize that sometimes
it's just a bad client.
It's not me.
It's you.
You got to go.
It's you.
But we want to be carefulbecause it does impact revenue.
It does impact our team.
It could have a lotof ripple effects.
So we never want to takethat decision lightly.
(29:22):
And I just think the moreprocesses we have in place,
the more we're focusing onthe facts, and the more we're
addressing things soonerrather than later, the better
off that we're going to be.
Galen Low (29:33):
I love that.
And for anyone who realizesthat they need to do that
in their business, I thinkyou've just given them
a pretty good ad start.
Awesome.
Melissa, thank you so muchfor joining me again today.
I loved our discussion.
You're right.
We can always comeup with topics.
We'd love to haveyou back on the show.
Melissa Morris (29:48):
Anytime.
We could talk allday, I'm pretty sure.
We're both talkers.
Galen Low (29:52):
We're gonna stop recording and then
probably keep talking forthree and a half hours.
Melissa Morris (29:56):
It's possible, it's possible.
Galen Low (30:00):
Alright folks, there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head on over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
You slam your laptop shut.
For the 17th meeting running,your client contact has
gaslit you and your team fora deadline that the client
themselves was responsible for.
They're escalating to your CEO.
You've got two daysto build your defense.
You're fuming, but youstart going through
old emails and reports.
The client is a huge account.
When they say jump, youragency asks how high.
(00:22):
In your search, youstumble across reports
from other projects.
You find a complaint thatwas lodged against the client
contact by a previous team.
You see hints that pastteam members may have quit
because of this individual.
And it would appear thatvery few projects that this
person has been involved inhave ever been profitable.
You notice that everypast project team has
suffered what you and yourteam are suffering now.
(00:44):
It's not you, it's them.
It's toxic, it's systemic, andit's doing real damage to almost
every area of the business.
If you've been dealing withchallenging and toxic client
relationships and are atan impasse about what to do
about it, keep listening.
We're going to be tacklingthe question of when and how
to fire a client, as well assharing some tips and techniques
(01:05):
for baking support into yourclient services process.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withThe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected, so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
(01:26):
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
Okay, today we are talkingabout firing a client.
Specifically, the process andbusiness considerations around
firing a client that maybe ishaving a toxic impact on the
people, the operations, andthe finances of an agency.
(01:47):
Back in the studio with metoday is Melissa Morris,
founder of Agency Authority,and herself, an agency project
management and operations andclient services specialist
who has lived the agencylife for well over a decade.
I say well over a decade, in thegreen room I was like, I want
to describe you as seasoned, butdoes that make you sound old?
And now it was like, Oh gosh,she's she was there when the
(02:09):
first agency was created.
Yeah, that one backfired on me.
Anyways, thank you, Melissa,for being here in the
studio with me again today.
Melissa Morris (02:19):
Despite the lovely intro, I'm
really excited to be here.
I've got to be done earlythough, my bedtime with
my seasoned age and all.
Galen Low (02:28):
We'll give you some time.
Yeah, we'll each put ourrespective dentures into the
into the bubbly water, and yeah.
Actually, you we didtouch on this topic in
our last conversation.
You've been on thepodcast before.
We were talking aboutbuilding rapport with clients
and how we can build goodtrusting relationships.
And we ended with thisidea that actually some
clients are just terrible.
(02:48):
And I don't mean intrinsicallyevil and terrible.
I mean, some folks listeningare like, are you sure?
But sometimes itjust isn't a fit.
It's not working.
And I think that it's somethingthat we don't discuss a lot.
Some people are like, Oh,I didn't know it was an
option to fire a client.
They give us money.
We need money to operate.
I think we need them,but also there's so much
damage that can take place.
And there's a lot ofrepercussions that could go
(03:09):
along with it, frankly, yeah,just aren't always seen.
So I thought maybe let'sjust get right into
it, this idea, right?
Firing a client.
For some agency projectteams it's a fantasy.
But sometimes, it is a necessarybusiness decision that agencies
don't even keep on the table.
So I thought I'd open withjust the big question, which is
(03:31):
When is it okay to want to firea client and when is it not?
Melissa Morris (03:35):
So, I don't know about you, but
every time you say that,I feel I want to go dun.
Galen Low (03:37):
Dun.
Melissa Morris (03:38):
Dun dun.
So, to answer that questionthough, when is it okay to fire
a client and when is it not?
And I would say it's alwaysokay to fire a client.
You're the agency owner withthe caveat of are we honoring
any legal rights, contractualsort of obligations, right?
We would never want toget ourselves in any
(04:01):
sort of legal trouble.
So make sure you'repaying attention there.
Now, with that being said, dowe want to fire lots of clients?
Probably sometimes, right?
Depending on the day, the phaseof the moon, sometimes we're
ready to go on a firing spree.
And so I think what we need totalk about here too is Maybe
not so much when is it okay,but when is it appropriate?
(04:24):
Because that isdifferent, right?
That's a different mindset.
So first we need to come tothis mindset of it's okay.
It's okay to fire a clientas long as we're doing
it legally and ethicallyand all of those things.
But should we?
Do they just drive us bonkers?
Or are they actuallydoing something wrong?
And if you listen to theother episode, we talked
(04:45):
a lot about how importantclient relationships are
and really nurturing those.
So you'll know I am a big fanof keeping the clients you have
and maintaining relationships.
But we also know sometimesthere are just bad clients.
And there comes a pointwhere it doesn't matter how
much they're paying you.
It's just not working.
They're never going to be happywith the product you deliver.
(05:06):
They're always going tomiss their deadlines.
They're going toreschedule meetings.
They're going to email youat all hours of the night.
And despite your bestefforts, they're just
not coming on board.
Galen Low (05:17):
I like the spiciness of that.
Doesn't matter how much moneythey're paying you because,
I've worked in agencies whereit's basically do whatever.
They make up 70 percent of ourrevenue or whatever, right?
Hopefully not that much ofa balance, but their role
in our ability to operateis significant enough that
anything they ask for is okay.
But that also can be bad.
And then I've heard storiestoo, or similarly, they're
(05:39):
like, Oh, we need this clientto we must do everything.
And actually theylifted the hood.
They realized actuallythe client was bad
for business period.
Not bad for like culture andlike everyone's mental wellbeing
and health and all that stuff.
But actually they weren't makingmoney off that client, even
though the numbers were big.
Melissa Morris (05:54):
I'm so glad you brought that up and we are so
good at coming up with topics.
So we'll table this.
But I see that all the timewhere an agency said, that's
our biggest client, whateverthey want, they get, we do.
They're keeping thelights on around here.
They make up so much revenueand we start time tracking and
digging into those reports.
I'm like, did you know you'reworking for $22 an hour?
Galen Low (06:16):
Yes.
Melissa Morr (06:17):
Did you know that?
And they're, Oh my gosh, what?
So absolutely right there.
Sometimes top line doesn'tmatch up with bottom line.
Galen Low (06:25):
The other thing that I'm reading in there
I'm hearing from you is thatsome of these decisions, like
it's a team sport in a way.
Right.
And even just to put a, aproject management lens on
it, a lot of project managersworking in an agency, where
that is the directive, right?
It's do whatever.
This client gives us lots ofmoney and you feel helpless.
And you're like, I don'thave the authority to fire
a client, but guess what?
The agency owner can't really doit on their own either, right?
(06:48):
We have to involve legal.
We have to talk to the teams.
And it actually is thisthing that doesn't get
unilaterally decided.
I mean, sometimes I'm sure itdoes, but most of the time,
in my experience, it's notsomething that gets unilaterally
decided by one person.
You don't come to workone day and be like, Oh,
remember that client?
Yeah, they're gone.
It's something that isconsidered, it's a conversation.
And there's multipleperspectives that
need to go into it.
(07:09):
I wanted to maybe zoom outa bit because you have deep
first hand experience managingclients in the agency world.
And maybe without namingnames, what's the worst client
experience you've ever had?
And how did you turn thattoxic experience into
a learning experience?
Melissa Morris (07:25):
So I want to share an example and I think
this is a really good one totalk about because we can have
bad clients that can be savedand turned into good clients.
Sometimes there are badones that we need to fire.
But I want to share a storyabout a terrible client.
So years ago, when I workedin the agency world as,
account manager, I wasdefinitely more junior.
(07:47):
I was in a junior role, but Iwas working on our agencies.
One of our biggestaccounts, we were doing the
regional advertising forthe local cable company.
And I was a little morejunior, but getting more
responsibility and the cablecompany had brought on a new
marketing coordinator as well.
So we were tasked with gettingan ad done a very simple ad.
I mean, this thing shouldhave taken no more than
(08:09):
like an hour or two tops.
We spent probably two weeksgoing back and forth and racked
up, I think almost 15 hours.
She would send me an email,Hey, change the picture to this.
And then, hey, changethis copy edit to that.
Hey, I just noticed thecopyright date is wrong.
Can you go ahead and justpiecemealing all these little,
(08:31):
then she changed the photoback somewhere around revision
number seven, driving me crazy.
And then finally we get,we get this ad done.
Then the bill goes out.
Her boss calls my boss.
She's in trouble, and so amI. I'm in a lot of trouble.
The VP of the agency islooking at me and they're
(08:52):
going, What did you do?
I'm like, she had all theserevisions, she was piecemealing
them to me I don't understandand she goes, you're in charge,
you should have led this.
Did you tell her how this wasgoing to impact the budget
of this ad? Oh, no, I didn't.
Okay, did you tell her sheneeded to collect all of her
revisions at one time andsend them to you at one time?
(09:15):
I think I forgot tomention that also.
Oh, okay.
So this is on you as well.
And so this is where wetalk about, there's always
careful consideration.
Not that I had the authority,but in that moment, what
I've been like, you're fired,but it felt that way, right?
But this comes back to yourprocesses, having conversations,
(09:37):
having a plan in place.
So now with that being said,if that conversation had
looked like, did you continueto tell them how this was
going to impact the timeline?
Yes.
Did you tell them that excessiverevisions were going to incur
a lot of additional charges?
Yes.
I told them that.
Did you tell them that?
Yes.
Okay, then I did my part.
(09:57):
That wasn't on me.
Then that was on the client.
And so this is where we cansee if we're doing a good job
managing for being really clearabout what's needed, we're
working through the process,then that will tell us Is it
a bad client or are we justnot managing things very well?
And then at that point,it's decision time.
Do we fire or do we keep?
Galen Low (10:19):
It's funny because in our last episode, we
were talking about accountmanager skills that project
managers are never taught.
And then now the reverse islike the project management
skills that accountmanagers are never taught.
Yeah, exactly.
It's going to impact the budget.
You got to tell them that.
You're like, Oh yeah, okay.
But I was, an account manager.
I wasn't trained that way.
That's really interesting.
So that one turned aroundor ended up being it's
(10:41):
still one of those clients?
Melissa Morris (10:43):
Oh, well, I will say eventually that
working relationship did end.
We'll just put it at that.
Galen Low (10:47):
Fair enough.
And I think that'sthe, the thing.
There's work to be done to,maybe not always salvage, I
guess, but I think just to atleast try make the attempt to
salvage, I guess, because we'vebeen talking about throughout
this episode and last is thatlike establishing and growing
these relationships, liketime and energy and money
(11:08):
has been invested into this.
And it's expensive inmore ways than just money
to just discard them.
So I think that's a, like areally interesting thought
that I don't think alwayscrosses people's mind when
they're thinking, gosh, we'vegot to fire this client.
It's not am I doingeverything I can to make
sure things are clear?
And could this ship be righted?
And is it worth it?
I thought I'd maybe ask aroundthe sort of toxic client side of
(11:30):
things, because sometimes maybeit's not that toxic, right?
And it's addressable.
What are some telltale signsthat a relationship actually
is toxic, that they area toxic client, having a
toxic impact on your team,yourself, your business?
Melissa Morris (11:45):
Yeah, and you know it's funny because the
clients that always push backon timeline, are always late
to meetings, never get uswhat we need, blowing up our
email, and so those bad clientscan be very easy to spot.
But there are bad clientsthat are much harder to spot
because they're a littlebit more manipulative.
They're pushy in liketheir own little way.
(12:05):
And I had one of these,unfortunately, probably two
years ago at this point.
This woman was never rude to me.
She was not emailingme after hours.
She met her deadlines.
But she was routinelytrying to push the scope
of work over and over.
So I would get on a call withher and she, we'd be talking,
(12:28):
you do X, Y, and Z, right?
Nope.
That's not included.
And the scope, that'snot what we offer.
Right.
So I'm operating integrity.
I had a clear scope of work.
I am confirming like thisis not what's included.
Okay.
A week later we get on the call.
So you guys will do X,Y, and Z for me, right?
No, that's not whatwe're going to do.
(12:49):
Week after week, this typeof behavior is continuing
where it's always,you'll do that, right?
Or I'm going to sendyou over the things.
I can get those to you todayso you could get this together
by like Thursday, right?
No.
And it got to the point whereI just knew every time I got on
that call, I would have a pitin my stomach and I knew she's
(13:12):
gonna push the scope here likeevery time and sure enough every
time she did and so it did getto a point where I'm looking
back at my scope of work.
I'm looking back at mycontract and I'm like, we're
all dying here and I did.
I had to send that email.
Here's what I have as our scope.
Here is what wehave accomplished.
(13:33):
Here's what we're going towrap up and this is our end
date and I, was in my contract.
I still wanted to deliveron my promises to her, make
sure I was honoring whatI said I would, but I was
also like, we're all done.
So I think it's easy to stopthe people who are egregious
and it can be harder tofind the people who are
(13:56):
just being sneaky about it.
So I wanted to point that out.
Galen Low (14:00):
That's really interesting because yeah,
like in my past, thelike most notable client
that we ever fired at theagencies I was at was the
client that was egregious.
The team came back cryingevery time there's folks who
maybe talking to a professionalabout their experiences there.
And those are like they'relike, Oh yeah, we got to
do something about this.
(14:20):
But the like more insidious, andI was going to say manipulative.
But I think the thing aboutthat story of yours is
that it's this sort of likeconstant imbalance that it's
never like a level footing.
It's never going tobecome a partnership.
It's abusive in the sense thatevery time I'm going to be like,
Hey, give me your lunch money.
And even if you sayno, I'm still going
to ask you next time.
And even if it's not, if they'renot getting your lunch money,
(14:43):
it's still bullying behavior.
And it's, it's not a leveland even relationship.
Melissa M (14:49):
That's exactly right.
Galen Low (14:50):
I'm curious, like from that perspective, I,
I get the whole wrappingthe scope and being like,
yeah, we're done here.
In the event that it'ssomething that needs to
be escalated to, should wefire this client decision?
Like what can someone onthe front line, an account
manager or a project manager,someone on the project team,
what can they do to voicethese concerns so that it does
get looked at and addressed?
Melissa Morris (15:10):
Yeah, I think the thing is to focus on the
facts because it can be easy to.
When oh, well,they're just rude.
Well, what does rude look like?
Well, their emailsare really short.
Well, maybe they don'tlike to type emails, right?
Like I can't fire a clientbecause they said, I think
we talked about this too.
You've gotten clients who wouldrespond with like fine, period.
(15:30):
We can't fire somebody becausethey don't like to type.
Do you know?
I think especially, even ifyou're the person who would
be making the decision, butespecially if you are bringing
this to other people, maybewith the recommendation
that I don't think thisis a good relationship.
I think it's importantto focus on facts.
We had to rearrange a deadlinebecause they kept neglecting
(15:51):
to get us what we want andthis is how it impacted the
team and I had to work late.
They said that they were goingto pay an additional fee, but
when they got the invoice,they called and complained
and we ended up cutting thatand we didn't pay it after all
because they said they didn'tunderstand that there was a fee.
These are the emails where Ifollowed up and said that their
deadline was Tuesday and theystill, on Thursday said, Oh,
(16:14):
I didn't know you needed it.
So just having some reallyclear data points and focusing
on the facts is going tobe really important to make
sure that you are making theright decision and not doing
from that, from a chargedplace or an emotional place.
Galen Low (16:29):
That's a really good point.
I mean, I think my knee jerkreaction was it's too bad that
our, like whatever impact tomental health and, or and some
of the less tangible sort ofimpacts isn't something that
an agency would take seriously,but actually I'm like, hold on.
I had to pause myself.
I'm like, you still have tomake this rational case because
(16:49):
it can still encompass that.
Right.
And like you said, right, it'slike, because of this, the team
and I had to work late and thisis the impact and it's factual
and not to say that you have topull the emotion out of it, but
to say that this is a decisionthat requires facts to make sure
that, cause it impacts not justyou, it impacts people working
on this project, you're goingto fire this client mid project.
Guess what's going to happen.
(17:10):
Those folks all go on bench.
It's something thatneeds to be considered.
And I do like that approachof saying listen, just make
sure we gathered the factsbecause someone on the
outside, it's hard for themto evaluate and say, yeah.
Okay.
We'll just fire thatclient tomorrow.
Like I trust you.
It's a bit more considered thanthat, even if they do trust you.
So I do that sort ofgathering of facts.
Melissa Morris (17:29):
Absolutely.
And I think we're both inagreement to your mental health
and wellbeing is an importantpiece of this puzzle, but I
can tell you it is going to bea very rare instance where the
only way they are showing up ina toxic way is with your mental
health and wellbeing, right?
Someone who is showingup in that way is almost
always showing up in factualways as a bad client.
(17:52):
It's going to be rare wherethey're just like emotionally
showing up as a bad client.
That just seems to bethe way that works.
Maybe it never happens, butI'm sure sometimes it happens.
But to speak to that, ifyou are feeling like, like
with me, I'm like, I'vegot this pit in my stomach.
Why do I feel like I'malways like in this
weird defensive mode?
(18:13):
Those are very uncomfortable.
And I love my clients.
Big fan of client relationships.
That's not like me to feellike, oh, I do not like.
And then when I looked under thehood and said, what is making
me uncomfortable about this?
Oh, here are the data drivenfacts that are coming up.
She's pushing scope.
(18:33):
She's pushing timelines, right?
Okay.
I see now.
And so then I could say youwant, but I don't offer.
So it makes sense forthis relationship to end.
Galen Low (18:44):
I like that it it's tying it back to that
story where it was insidiousand almost hard to put a
finger on, but it's there.
And actually this sort of,my story where it's like the
team came back from everymeeting crying multiple times.
I'm like, Oh yeah, actuallythat's the like big culmination
of stuff we probably shouldhave identified way earlier and
started gathering facts aboutway earlier and some of it, I
(19:06):
know you're huge on process andfrankly, like we didn't have a
process for this and actually alot of the agencies that I have
worked with do not have a formalclient off boarding process.
Even from identifyingproblem areas all the way
through to yeah, talking tothe legal team and figuring
out, are we contractuallyokay to take this action?
(19:26):
And then also even that processof like, how do we support
the team with the fallout?
Yes, emotionally, but alsolike financially, right.
It's do they still havejob security after this
client went away and howcan we talk about it?
How do you advise youragency clients and agency
teams to just be like.
Better set up with some formalprocess and policy around
(19:47):
ending client relationships andsupporting the team that, ends
up on bench or having a sort ofunfinished project as a result?
Melissa Morris (19:56):
Yeah.
So I think there's acouple of things there.
One is I'm a huge fan ofa client communication
SOP for all agencies.
And this is somethingI recommend all
agency owners have.
And it addresses things likewhat to do when your client
has excessive revisions,when or when not to introduce
a rush fee, when do I needto escalate a project or a
(20:19):
concern up the ladder andget it to senior management.
So sometimes that looks anytimea client misses a meeting,
you need to let somebody know.
If you send two emails andyou don't hear back from
them, you need to let us know.
So sometimes even just trying tofind those things early on can
either help us course correct.
(20:39):
If there's just been, in myearlier and fiasco, right?
Sometimes like just sometraining gets us back on
track, or sometimes we'regoing to go the direction like
the client that I ultimatelyhad to part ways with.
But let's start figuringthat out early on.
I think also to that SOPshould have templates that
your account managers andproject managers can use.
(21:00):
So that if you do have a clientwho's feeling a little pushy
and they send that kind of bullyemail, let's just give them a
template that makes it easy forthem to be firm about what is
not going to happen or what isgoing to happen and they can
lean on that so then they don'thave to feel the weight of that.
And then as the agency orbusiness owner, you know
that this is getting handledin the way you want it to.
(21:22):
So I think really empoweringthem with some very clear,
like we've talked aboutprocesses, policies, what
does this look like at theagency is a really great start
to help someone navigatingand dealing with that.
And then when it comes tothat actual off boarding
moment where it's this is notworking and we are parting
ways with these people havinga very clear action plan
(21:44):
of what that looks like.
These are the tasks wehave agreed to finish.
This is what we know isnot going to get finished.
This is what we're going tohand off and then this is the
date that we are passing thebaton and be very clear in that
email that says this concludesour working relationship.
That email has those words.
(22:05):
It doesn't say hereare your final files.
Let us know if you needanything or here's that
thing we talked about.
Thanks.
No, this concludes ourworking relationship.
Be very clear about that.
Don't leave that door open forsomething else to sneak in.
Galen Low (22:21):
The two things I love most about that are one,
the SOP actually is built in away that services information
early rather than after,like when it's happening in
case of fire break glass.
Like it's like there'sa check and balance
there for communication.
But also that wordingof this concludes our
working relationship.
I've definitely been on anumber of projects where I
find out six months down theroad that the support team
(22:44):
is still getting requests andthey're still processing them
and they're like still workingon documentation together.
That should havebeen handed off.
And yeah, in fairness, Iwas like, sometimes the
communication wasn't there.
The clarity wasn't therethat like, this is the
end date wasn't spoken.
And there's so many thingsthat sometimes we feel
uncomfortable speaking outloud or having a conversation
about, I guess the other thingI love is that notion that,
Yes, and there's a template tohelp you have firm language.
(23:07):
You don't have to come upwith it on your own and we'll
stand behind it because it'ssomething that we created as an
organization to address this.
And it takes a lot of that edgeoff that pressure of being like,
I have to like, say it's over.
Like I'm breaking up with myclient and like I'm spending
hours agonizing over how todo it, but to have it as,
okay, this is our process.
I might tailor this templatea bit, but you know, it's the
(23:28):
firm language we use becauseit creates clarity and draws a
line in the sand of what we'redoing and what we're not doing
to conclude this relationship.
Melissa Morri (23:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even one of thosetemplates could even look
like a pass the buck one.
And I don't mean thatin a negative way.
But if you know that somethingreally need to go to leadership
or conversations about firingor on deck here, they could
even have a canned emailso they can feel empowered
to say I want to let youknow, I've received this.
But I do need todiscuss this internally.
We're going to get backto you by X date, and
(23:59):
then you can send that.
So that also gives you a littlebreathing room to reflect
on what's going on here.
Is this bullying?
Are they pushing scope?
What's happening?
I need to take this internallyso you can respond to them
in a very timely fashion,but also let them know.
What are they, no answeris still an answer, right?
Or no update is still anupdate is what like that
(24:20):
project management turn, right?
Yeah, I just want to letyou know, I'm tracking
this, but that's all I'mdoing is tracking this.
Galen Low (24:27):
And I think it's it's such an important thing for
folks to hear where, especiallyin the agency world and client
services in general, you feelpressure, no matter what role
you play on the team, youfeel pressure to like, give a
response right away, you shouldknow, shouldn't you, they've
hired you as experts, you shouldhave the answer right now.
And the reality is youdon't have to, but you can
acknowledge gotcha, right?
Message received.
(24:48):
We're going to takesome time with this.
And that goes for thingsthat are positive.
And it goes for things thatare negative and, escalatory
and inflammatory, and all thoseother, all the authorities.
A lot of folks listeningwill be like, yeah, either
we're already good at doingthat where I work or man,
doesn't that sound amazing?
We're going to startworking on this right away.
(25:09):
Honestly, for any team, notjust agency teams, but any team
working in a client servicescontext, sometimes they feel
stuck in a toxic relationshipand their organization isn't
willing to do anything about it.
What can an individual doto look out for themselves
in that situation?
Melissa Morris (25:25):
It's similar to the response I said before,
focus on facts and reallypull up that scope of work.
Do really adhere to processesto a T. Don't skip a follow up.
Don't fudge a meetingor here or there.
Really lean into the templatesand the processes that the
agency has provided you.
(25:45):
And if that is a gap,Then request that.
If they're not going to firethe client, then maybe we
can request that they equipus with the tools to better
manage or wrangle the client.
So I think that'sabsolutely a fair request.
And I can tell you, I wouldthink most business owners
would be in support ofhonoring that request, right?
Because if the idea here is no,the client gets what they want,
(26:07):
the client needs to be happy.
It will help me make our clienthappy if you give me some
templated emails that speak torounds of revisions, so that I
can make sure I'm being reallyclear about what we need to get
from them to finish our work.
So then really you're coming tothem asking for some resources
to make the client happy, whichis ultimately what they want.
Galen Low (26:27):
I mean, I like that sort of, yeah, or requests
to say, Hey, listen, likethis is going to improve
things for the business.
And actually, coming at it fromboth sides, like having been
part of an agency leadershipteam, I know this is like to
manage expectations for folks.
I know that it doesn'talways get received well
by a leadership team,sometimes behind the scenes.
They're like, oh mygosh, this creates work.
Now we have to go and writethese templates and ah, I
(26:49):
wish, we just had peoplewho could figure it out.
And I think that's like a,I mean, it's probably not
everyone's reaction, butI've seen that reaction at
a leadership level, but I'vealso seen it then net out
later to be like, ah, sure.
Glad we did that.
I'm really happy that personraised that it did create work.
Don't get me wrong.
Everything is disruption ishard for us to deal with as
humans operating a business aswell, but net benefit is there.
(27:10):
And I think that's the importantbit is that it might seem like
you've created work for somebodyby requesting this, but in
the end it does net out as abenefit for people, for the
business, just for clarity inthe relationships as a forcing
function for maturing a businessfor lack of a better word.
Not to say that the thing thatpushes a business forward is
to have toxic clients, butcertainly considering some of
(27:33):
these SOPs, whether they'vehappened in the past a lot
or not, just having a wayto deal with these things
that do happen in business.
Melissa Morris (27:40):
Absolutely.
And that might even just looklike here are the emails I
sent when I'm following up andchecking in and they missed
the deadline every time anddesigners mad at me and the
copywriters mad at me and thingsare happening last minute.
What should I change in theseemails to be more clear?
Maybe I'm just not seeing it.
Maybe I think I'mbeing really clear.
(28:01):
Let me know.
This is the processI've been following.
I send this email.
I wait two days.
I send this email.
I send these reminders.
Where am I missingthe mark here?
And then that's a goodopportunity for them to
look and, Oh, you've evengiven us the process.
Oh, here's where actuallyyou're not really clear.
I'm reading this a completelydifferent way, or it really
(28:22):
might start to shine a lightand say, Oh, you're not just
being a squeaky wheelie.
This client sucks.
What are we goingto do about it?
Galen Low (28:28):
It is the escalation, but it's also
asking for feedback and thatdue diligence that we talked
about, where it's are we doingeverything we can to make
this a good relationship?
And if it's still notworth it, when the data
shows that it's not worthit, let's have a pathway
to do something about it.
Melissa Morris (28:41):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it all comes backto processes, right?
I think clarity and a processfor handling it, I think is the
biggest takeaway here because itis, it's not an easy decision.
We spent a whole episodetalking about how important
your clients are, nurturingthose relationships.
And so it's not somethingwe want to do willy nilly,
(29:01):
but it is important torecognize that sometimes
it's just a bad client.
It's not me.
It's you.
You got to go.
It's you.
But we want to be carefulbecause it does impact revenue.
It does impact our team.
It could have a lotof ripple effects.
So we never want to takethat decision lightly.
(29:22):
And I just think the moreprocesses we have in place,
the more we're focusing onthe facts, and the more we're
addressing things soonerrather than later, the better
off that we're going to be.
Galen Low (29:33):
I love that.
And for anyone who realizesthat they need to do that
in their business, I thinkyou've just given them
a pretty good ad start.
Awesome.
Melissa, thank you so muchfor joining me again today.
I loved our discussion.
You're right.
We can always comeup with topics.
We'd love to haveyou back on the show.
Melissa Morris (29:48):
Anytime.
We could talk allday, I'm pretty sure.
We're both talkers.
Galen Low (29:52):
We're gonna stop recording and then
probably keep talking forthree and a half hours.
Melissa Morris (29:56):
It's possible, it's possible.
Galen Low (30:00):
Alright folks, there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head on over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
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