March 25, 2025 • 29 mins
How technical do you really need to be as a technical project manager in 2025? Host Galen Low sits down with Kayla Keizer, Team Lead and Senior Technical PM at Plank, to explore the balance between technical know-how and leadership skills.
They discuss how PMs can thrive without mastering every technology their teams use, and how leaders can foster high-impact project managers without requiring a DevOps degree. Tune in for insights on mentoring, growth, and navigating the evolving role of technical PMs.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Kayla on LinkedIn
- Check out Plank
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Galen Low (00:00):
SaaS.
SOC2.
ADA.
Jenkins.
You thought they were lyricsto a Charlie XCX song.
Turns out, they're not.
And by the look on yourclient's face, you probably
should have known that — orat least known someone on
your team who knows that.
But before you hang up yourspurs and abandon your dream
of becoming a respectedleader in technical project
(00:22):
management, keep listening.
We're going to be exploringhow technical you need to
be as a technical PM in2025 — and how team leaders
can support and develop highimpact PMs without sending
them to get their doctoratein DevOps.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
(00:42):
My name is Galen Low withThe Digital Project Manager.
We're a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
Okay, today we are talking aboutguiding, mentoring, and leading
(01:03):
a team of technical projectmanagers to find that right
balance between technical skillsand people skills and help
them advance their professionalgrowth within an environment
where they need to know enoughbut simply can't know everything
about the technologies thattheir teams are working with.
With me today is Kayla Keizer,Team Lead and Senior Technical
Project Manager at Plank, adigital agency specializing
(01:25):
in web and IT projects forclients in arts and culture,
non profit, and education.
Kay, thanks so muchfor being here today.
Kayla Keizer (01:32):
Thanks for inviting me.
Galen Low (01:34):
I narrowly missed your like Costa Rica background.
You got back from CostaRica today, yesterday?
Kayla Keiz (01:40):
Today, this morning.
Galen Low (01:42):
I was so excited.
I misscheduled this becausewe could have had, a jungle
or a beach in the background.
Kayla Keizer (01:47):
Yeah, it would have been.
It's still green behind me, butit would have been like actual
nature behind me, the jungle.
Galen Low (01:53):
If you're listening to this podcast and not watching
it, just imagine wonderfulnature behind Kay right now.
I thought maybe we could justdive right in and start with
the question that everyone wantsto know the answer to, which
I think is, can you continueto advance as a technical
project manager withouthaving technical training?
(02:14):
Or are you going to hit a wallif you're a technical PM who
like can't debug Python or likewrangle Git or navigate Laravel
or configure a CDN in AWS?
What are your thoughts there?
Kayla Keizer (02:25):
My thoughts are you are part of a team
of technical experts whoat the end of the day it
is their job to debug.
And configure AWS so itdefinitely doesn't fall on
you to do the actual step bystep work, but it's always
good to understand or have abase knowledge of the concept.
(02:48):
If someone mentions Python toyou and you have no idea what
it is not great and that'snot something that's you have
to go to school for, or youneed to be specially trained,
you can Google and get agood understanding or base.
You can ask your team members,Hey, do you mind spending a
little bit more time and givingme a bit more context on this
(03:08):
so that I'm prepared better whenwe're talking about this or when
we're writing up requirements,I can give you the info we need.
That's really the informationyou need to know is
understanding the conceptsand also understanding,
okay, what questions do Ineed to ask in order to give
the development team or thedesigner or the content team,
(03:28):
whatever information theyneed to actually do the thing.
Galen Low (03:32):
Boom.
I love that.
I love that it's not, youmust know everything and go
get formal training for it.
But like the art is actuallyasking the right question,
having the wherewithal to ask,and then also asking the right
questions so that, you can bethat translator, that conduit
for some of this informationto like transfer between your
team and your stakeholders,and I think it's so cool.
(03:53):
I wonder if we could zoomout a bit because Earlier
in your career, you foundyourself in a technical
project management role.
And I think, don't let me putwords in your mouth, but I
think it was at a time whenyou didn't feel all that
technical yourself and itwas like serious technical.
You and I were talkingin the green room.
It was like telecom, whichis full of acronyms, full
(04:14):
of technologies, full of allthese concepts that are pretty
specific to that industry.
And now you've taken that andyou've, let it run its course
or you followed that path andyou now lead a team of technical
project managers at Plank.
What was the first big hurdlethat you faced as a non
technical project managerleading a project team of
like technical specialistsand how did you overcome it?
Kayla Keizer (04:36):
I think you have to overcome
yourself a little bit.
Like you said, I was in deep,I was working with people
who have been in the companyfor 10, 15, even 20 years.
who had not just the technicalexpertise, but a history
and a background of thefoundation of the network.
I was a coordinator at thattime, and I was also working
(04:58):
closely with the director.
And so I was helping him a lot.
Again, I'm working withthe director, 25 year olds.
knew what this tryingto figure it all out.
But the thing for me thathelped me get through it is
you can't shy away from stuff.
You have to get overyourself a little bit.
And yes, it's scary.
(05:18):
And yes, you don't.
know, but you won't know untilyou ask the questions, until
you dive deep into it andyou embrace the challenge.
I find when you embrace things,it starts to go a lot more
smoothly than when you'relike, Oh, this is so crap.
I don't want to do this.
And you procrastinate it.
And you're like, not sure.
And if you put all of thatnegative energy to it, it's
(05:41):
always going to feel tough.
And it's always going tofeel like you're in the mud
trying to get out of it.
So I think really it'smindset and it's making
sure that you fake theconfidence if you have to.
Galen Low (05:54):
I like the idea that, we so often
create our own barriers bygetting in our own heads.
Whereas actually the thing thatmoves it forward is just like
having that mindset of, youknow what, I got to do this and
yeah, maybe faking it a little,but faking it from a standpoint
of being confident enough toask even right now, just being
(06:14):
confident and lying to yourselfthat you do know this stuff.
But like actuallyfiguring out again, to
your point, what to ask.
Kayla Keizer (06:20):
And confidently asking questions, you're
not in the background.
You're not timid.
You're not coming towhoever you need to ask
the question with fear andanxiety, because they're
going to pick up on that.
If you're in a clientmeeting, the client is going
to zoom in and know thatyou're not confident about
what you're talking about.
So that's what I mean when Isay like fake, the confidence
(06:40):
is even if you don't know,it's okay, but at least be.
upfront, be honest and beconfident because people
tend to zoom in or theylose confidence if they feel
like, Oh, they're not evenconfident in themselves.
So how can I haveconfidence in them?
So that's what I mean.
And I think to circle back tolike, how do you get over it?
(07:02):
Once you've get over yourmental barriers, you have to
lean on like your strengths.
My strength was.
I'm really goodat documentation.
I'm really good at understandingtechnical information when it's
explained to me and then takingthat and turning it to a client
or being able to write a ticketor be able to do requirements.
(07:22):
You don't need to betechnical in order to
document and ask questions.
Galen Low (07:28):
Now I really like that because like even when
you think of it as like aliteral translator role, you're
like whatever United NationsGeneral Assembly and like
you're doing a translationdoesn't mean you have to
know how to lead a country.
But your skill, right?
The thing that you wantpeople to have trust in
you about is making thatmessage land in a different
language on the other side.
And I think that's it's sucha strong and valuable role in
(07:50):
the tech world and the IT worldand the digital world where,
that is what you want peopleto build trust in you for.
Not your ability to code ordebug or deploy software,
but knowing how it's doneand being able to at least
drive that conversation andorchestrate everything so
that it does get done in ameaningful and competent way.
Kayla Keizer (08:11):
Yeah.
Galen Low (08:12):
Can I put you on the spot?
Kayla Keizer (08:13):
What?
Galen Low (08:14):
Can I ask you what you feel your scariest "dumb"
question was to ask in theworld of telecommunications?
Kayla Keizer (08:22):
I don't know if there was one specific
question, but I willadmit to not asking enough
questions in the beginning.
And I maybe overassumed my skills.
Galen Low (08:34):
Okay, yeah.
Faking it real hard.
Kayla Keizer (08:37):
Yeah, and they asked me for
some sort of report.
And I went and I made thereport to the best of my
capabilities, didn't ask anyextra questions, didn't ask
how they wanted it, what data.
I was just like, yeah,no, I can do that.
Did the report, gave it to thedirector and he was like, no,
this is not what I asked for.
I was like, oh, and heasked, why didn't you ask
(08:59):
me more like qualifyingquestions if you weren't sure?
And I was like, oh.
I guess I could have.
Galen Low (09:05):
First of all, I applaud that
because it's pretty bold.
And you're coming at it fromthis mindset of actually,
I do know what to do.
And yeah, maybe it didn't hitthe mark, but I think that's
actually, in terms of notgetting stuck in your head and
like going and doing a thing.
Sure.
It wasn't perfect, but Ithink that's actually it's a
pretty bold mindset to have.
Entering an industry and beingnew in that role ish to feel
(09:28):
like, yeah, I got this, but infairness, qualifying questions,
clarifying questions, yeah,never a bad thing to ask when
you're in that environment wherethings are done a certain way
in some of these industries.
Kayla Keizer (09:40):
And it was expected to ask questions.
People expect you to askmore defining questions.
And so for me, itwas a huge learning.
Like now I'm like ask, ask.
Galen Low (09:52):
Now it's yeah, now it's the brand actually,
and it's yeah, I like thatas a cornerstone, like of
your approach really isthat, not only can you not
know everything, But youprobably don't know most
things in a certain way,shape, or form, right?
I'm not insulting anyone'sintelligence who's listening
or watching, but there'sjust so much to know.
Like, how can anyoneknow everything?
The value is finding out.
(10:14):
I did a film studiesmajor in school.
I joke that I like, didn'treally learn anything.
of value, but I did certainlylearn how to deal with people
and collaborate and how to findan answer if I didn't know the
answer and then how to craftthat into a thought that I
could mobilize into action.
And, I think not just folkswho went to university,
but like anyone, right?
(10:35):
That's like that skill that isworthwhile to hone in this day
and age, just because honestly,there's too much to know.
Kayla Keizer (10:40):
And you hit on a very important point.
I think sometimes weunderestimate our soft skills.
And if the organizationwanted a technical PM with, an
engineering background, theywould have hired that person.
If you're a non technicalproject manager in a
(11:01):
technical role, it's probablybecause you have that
strong personable skills.
You are organized, they seeyou, the value outside of the
technical expertise that youbring, you're able to talk to
clients, you're able to talkto the team, you're able to
motivate the team, which issuper important as a project
manager, being able to motivateand lead without having
(11:23):
direct managerial authority.
Galen Low (11:26):
I think it's a hugely good point because in a lot
of the conversations I havewith folks in my community.
It's almost the framingis what don't I have, what
skills don't I have that likeI need to get to become a
technical project manager andnot enough emphasis on okay,
if you're even consideringthat role, yeah, there's some
of these soft skills thatyou'd likely have and could
probably still hone further,that's actually the meaty bit
(11:49):
of the role, that leadershiprole, that communication role.
Kayla Keizer (11:52):
Yeah.
And I have to say, Ijust finished hiring.
And one of the things that Iwas looking for is people who
were able to explain how theywent about finding information
and who were able to explainhow they were able to, because
I asked, I was looking fora technical leaning project
(12:12):
manager and I asked the questionWhat's your methodology to
approach learning new conceptsand they were able to respond
and say that how they weregoing to find the information
and that is valuable likeyou don't need to know but if
you have a method, and you'reable to explain your method
of finding the information.
That's like gold.
Galen Low (12:32):
What is your sort of favorite response to that?
And or maybe even just yourapproach to like finding
answers, especially when likeyou and your team, you deal
with like projects that relateto cyber security and data
and privacy accessibility.
What is a good answer tothat question in terms of
like, how do you approachfinding out an answer to
something you don't know?
Kayla Keizer (12:52):
I always am very curious and I always try
to do my own research myselfas a first step just to get
definitions at the very least.
Be able to knowthe terms, right?
And then I'm a very in person,so I'll figure out who's the
expert on the team, and thenI'll ask that person, Hey,
(13:13):
do you want to sit down withme for 30 minutes just to run
through a couple of things andmaybe can you help me so that
when we're in the next clientmeeting or when I'm writing
the next task for you, I knowexactly what you're looking for.
And of course, they're goingto want to take time because
you're positioning it ashow can I be better so I
help you in the end, right?
(13:33):
That's the value prop for them.
For me, that's what's workedis, do a little bit of
research yourself and getthe experts to help you out.
And you don't need to watch30 hours of YouTube videos.
Galen Low (13:46):
That's what's nice, right?
Because I know somefolks who are like, I
need to learn, whatever,cybersecurity, as an example.
And they're like borderline,like they could probably
do a SOC2 compliance audit.
And I was like, I thinkyou went too far, right?
Whereas I think like yourmodel, what I really like is
a, it's very practical, right?
Like in terms of a case by casebasis, as a project person,
you haven't got 30 hours to sitdown and watch YouTube, but it
(14:08):
is that sort of a very powerfuleducational model where it's
yeah, read some stuff on yourown, be curious on your own
and talk to somebody who knows.
And then I love that nuanceof and there's something
in it for them, right?
It's not just you canuse it strategically as
well to build trust withyour team because you're
curious about what they do.
And frankly, project managers.
(14:29):
Even technical ones, I havea bad reputation of being
like, just, cracking the whip.
I don't care what hasto get done, you have to
get it done by this date.
Don't talk to me aboutall these acronyms.
To come in and be like, can youtell me what this acronym is?
Because it's gonna help me.
And then, it's gonna help you.
I think it's a verypowerful sort of value
proposition as well.
Kayla Keizer (14:48):
Yeah, because it's not just building relationships
with clients, but it's buildingrelationship with the team too.
Spot on that.
Galen Low (14:54):
It's yeah, it's feed two birds with one
scone, to use a PETA metaphor.
You said something earlier thatI thought we could dive into.
It was just not just offlinewith your team to prepare
for a meeting, but sometimesIn real time, in a meeting
with the client, and I'mjust curious you're leading
a team of technical PMs, whatdo you advise them to do if
(15:16):
they get asked a technicalquestion by a client or a
team member, but like in thatreal time situation and they
don't know the answer to it?
Kayla Keizer (15:24):
I always tell them it's okay to say
you don't know the answer.
But I make sure that theyknow who has the answer.
So it's important, and thiscomes back to understanding the
concepts and understanding whodoes what on the team, what's a
front end issue, what's a backend issue, what's an SEO issue.
(15:44):
So when the client askssomething and you might
not know, you can say, youknow what, I don't know.
My X, Y, and Z person on myteam has the information.
I'll take that down right now,and probably in the next 24
hours, I'll get you an answer.
Don't worry, that showsa lot of confidence.
They have a time frame ofwhen they're going to get
the information and theyknow who has the information.
(16:06):
So why would they get butthurtthat you don't have the
answer right in that moment?
Galen Low (16:12):
And highlights the value of your role,
actually, which is a, again,you can use it as this
like combo punch, right?
You're like.
I don't know the answer, but Iknow how everything works here.
Cause I know the team andI know who to ask because I
did understand your question.
I just don't knowthe answer to it.
And then my job is to actuallyplug you into that answer.
(16:32):
That's part of whatI'm doing here is
translating that for you.
So let me go, and get thatand also not perpetuate.
Any preconceived notions thatyou are more technical or are
the Oracle for all the things?
Because it sets a weirdexpectation in terms
of what your role is.
Don't get me wrong.
I don't know.
Do you have anyone on yourteam who like was an engineer
developer or someone whowas actually came more from
(16:56):
that technical backgroundinto project management
instead of the opposite?
Kayla Keizer (17:00):
Not really.
We do have some that dabble,but they're very headstrong into
their lane of being a developerand technical experience.
But I feel like if you're theopposite and you come from
an engineering backgroundand you come into the project
manager realm, you could getinto the trap of not asking
(17:23):
enough questions and assumingthe requirements because you
have too much knowledge, almostright, and so you inadvertently
steer the client or you steerthe project in a direction that
maybe it shouldn't have gone.
Because you've madean assumption instead
of asking a question.
So I do think there can bechallenges and pitfalls having
(17:45):
that technical backgroundand trying to transition into
the project management role.
I sometimes catch myself doingit because I'm at a point now
I know enough to be dangerous.
And so sometimes I'll eventry and without even realizing
asking a question that'ssteering in a direction and
then, one of the teammatesthere on the call and they'll
(18:07):
be like, Oh no, we shouldn'tbe saying it like that.
This is how we should ask.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Galen Low (18:13):
That's such an interesting spin on it though,
because that's where therabbit hole goes, or at least.
The typical path coming fromproject management side into
sort of a more technicalproject manager role is you
start knowing basically nothingand feeling Like you're an
imposter, you don't havethe confidence, or feel like
you're missing something.
And then journeying to thepoint where you're like,
actually, I've learned a lot.
(18:34):
And yeah, I think Iknow the answer now.
And sometimes that might not bethe right way to approach it.
Knowing enough to be dangerous,it actually ends up being
a problem in some ways.
Kayla Keizer (18:45):
Yeah.
Galen Low (18:46):
How do you approach catching yourself on that?
Where you're like, I think Iknow the answer, but I probably
shouldn't answer because I thinkthis person should answer or I
should get the answer from them.
Kayla Keizer (18:56):
For me, it's when I need to give
more of a description ormore of a detailed answer.
So all, no, okay, no, whatyou're asking for is bad UX.
I can't tell you why it's badUX, but I know that it's bad UX.
So in that moment, I'm like,okay, I need to ask or get one
(19:17):
of the team members involved.
Cause I can't give itmore than a yes or no
answer at this point.
Galen Low (19:23):
I love that approach.
It's I have an opinion.
I can give you a yes and noanswer, but I can't explain why.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm going to hand that one off.
Kayla Keizer (19:29):
Exactly.
Galen Low (19:30):
We've been covering some of this in terms of like
soft skills, but I thought it,maybe I just posed a question
anyways, just in your opinion,is a technically trained project
manager possibly better atthe technical PM role than a
non technical PM in terms ofcoming at it that direction?
But mostly, I think what I needto ask is like, when a project
manager is not technical,what is the value that they
(19:52):
are bringing to the table?
And maybe we do a reframe,because I know we've been
talking about soft skills andthings like that, but like,
how would you frame that if youwere trying to get a job as a
technical project manager, butyou don't have all of these
platform certifications andknow all the acronyms and, and.
Kayla Keizer (20:09):
I think if you are in an interview, I
think you have to do your duediligence and understand the
industry and the technologythat company is working with.
So that even if you don'thave a deep understanding,
again, you've done your duediligence, you've gone and
done a little bit of researchand prepared, and you're
able to talk at least highlevel about certain concepts.
(20:30):
And you can talk againabout how you'd be able to.
go deeper or how youwould be able to approach
learning more so that youcould help facilitate the
team even more than that.
I know for myself, it's alsobeen helpful being able to
follow process, like we weretalking about soft skills and
(20:50):
whatnot, but Being a projectmanager, you're bringing also
structure to the project.
We see it all of the time.
There are no projectmanagers involved and
everything goes everywhereand nothing gets done.
So being a champion ofprocess and understanding
the different gates to getfrom A to B to the end of
the project and be able tolaunch, that is a huge quality
(21:14):
that we forget that we have.
We are the driverof the project.
Even if we're not technical,we're still able to move
the project forward.
Galen Low (21:23):
I love that.
Yeah, like the value iswe give structure and
you raise a good point.
Like earlier on, it's ifyou're in an interview
for a technical PM role.
They would have just called ita PM role if they didn't expect
some level of understanding.
So do your homework.
Don't just assume that you canbe like, I'm good with people.
And that's probably perfectfor this role because there
(21:45):
is some intent behind it toactually give it that title
of technical project manager.
There is a level of expectation.
It's good practice to do thatdue diligence going into an
interview, because guess what?
That's probably whatyou'll be doing like
in your job too, right?
Like doing a bit of, the Kapproach, just like reading
up, getting smart, talkingto somebody who's smarter,
(22:06):
then off to the races.
Kayla Keizer (22:08):
Yeah.
Galen Low (22:09):
Maybe I'll round out with this.
We've been talkingabout technical project
management, and I thinkwe've landed in a zone where.
Yeah, you have to be curious,but you don't have to be
necessarily a developer.
You don't necessarily have tobe deeply technical yourself.
But if you had someone on yourteam, or if you knew someone
who was a project manager,debating whether to deepen
(22:32):
their specialization as atechnical project manager.
In other words, they'reactually hungry to learn more.
What advice wouldyou give to them?
Would you advise thatmaybe they pursue some of
these certifications likeAWS or maybe take that
web development course?
Or would you view itas maybe sending them
down the wrong path?
Kayla Keizer (22:49):
I think if they are evaluating that, I
think they should evaluatewhere they want to take their
career and in what alley.
For example, if you arereally into security, then
definitely get some websecurity certificates, really
brush up on that so thatyou're able to talk to that
and understand the concepts.
(23:10):
If you're really intoaccessibility and championing
accessibility, understandwhat the core principles
are about accessibilityand how to go about it.
We don't code.
At least I don't know anyproject managers that code,
so you don't need to code.
But if you are looking to gointo a specific industry, there
(23:32):
might be certificates thatyou can get for a specific
industry to be able to brushup on so that you can bring
that into an interview.
Galen Low (23:39):
Yeah, I love that because also sometimes
I forget we're talkingabout specialization
is about specificity.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think as you're talkingto Oh yeah, like maybe the
wrong thing to do would be tohave a hundred specializations
because then you're like,what is it that you do?
But whereas if you likehad one deep niche that you
(24:00):
were deeply passionate aboutthat you're interested in,
like cybersecurity is thething that I enjoy, I am
passionate about projectmanagement and cybersecurity.
And yeah, when you wouldever hire me or promote me
into a role, this is whatyou're getting, because I
have both versus just likespecializing in too many things.
To look too much like a Jack ofall trades and quote unquote,
(24:25):
that overqualified sort ofresponse that you get, yeah,
you look a bit, I don't know,overqualified and really what
they mean is it doesn't looklike you can decide what it
is you do or communicate tome what it is that you do that
makes you special and different.
Kayla Keizer (24:38):
And I think people don't realize how many
directions you can go withthe web with internet and
technology this day and age.
I was in telecom, there's peoplewho are project managers in
telecom and that's what theydo and they understand the
hardware and they understandhow to set up a network and
that's their specialization.
(24:58):
So if you're looking tospecialize, figure out what
industry you want to be incyber security, telecom,
web development, there's somany different niches, and
there's a lot of opportunity.
Galen Low (25:11):
I love that.
Maybe I'll tie it all theway back to the beginning
because we're talking aboutlike leading and mentoring
a team of technical PMs.
And a lot of this kindof each individual team
member will learn some ofthese things on the fly.
Do you have a mechanism atPlank or like a community to
practice where you can sharesome of the learnings on the
go between project managers?
Kayla Keizer (25:28):
Yeah, so I meet with my team like once
a week and we review stuff,but I also have like once
a month we meet all of us.
And we talk about challengesand we talk about like project
progress, we talk about process.
And we also have, a privateSlack channel where we
(25:49):
can air our grievances.
But that's how wecommunicate together.
I actually been usinga lot of the DPM.
I've been going along through itwith one of my employees, just
to give them a more base or moreinformation in a different way.
You do the PMP certificationor the CMPM certification
(26:12):
and then especially indigital, you get to web
development and you don't evenunderstand how it translates.
So having that extra bitof content to be able to
translate basically principlesinto actionable items.
Is very value.
Galen Low (26:31):
So glad that you're using it.
Thank you for that.
But you're right.
There's so many placesto go in the web.
And it's it would beunreasonable in some ways
to like, Assume that anorganization like the project
management Institute couldcreate the perfect thing.
That's going to answerall the world's questions.
We started this as, youcan't know everything.
And I think that's actuallya lovely poetic place
(26:52):
to land where it's like.
Cool.
Yeah, deepen where you havepassion, where you have
interest, where you havecuriosity, understand the world
that you operate within and,ask questions, stay curious.
Kayla Keizer (27:05):
And I think it's important to acknowledge
where you are too, right?
If you're just starting out.
You're just starting out.
No one is expecting you to be 10years in day one, and it's okay.
Don't feel like an imposter.
Don't have that nervousness.
Acknowledge where youare and people will
meet you where you are.
(27:25):
I think that's one of the thingsthat I remind my team multiple
times when they feel like theyshould have known something.
You are where you are today.
And in 10 years or in fiveyears, you're going to
be in a different spaceand the expectations are
going to be different.
Galen Low (27:40):
I love that.
That's such solid advice.
Kay, thank you so much forspending the time with me today.
I've had so much fun.
Kayla Keizer (27:47):
Awesome.
Thanks for inviting me.
Galen Low (27:48):
Yeah, it's a pleasure.
It's a pleasure.
All right folks,there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head on over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
SaaS.
SOC2.
ADA.
Jenkins.
You thought they were lyricsto a Charlie XCX song.
Turns out, they're not.
And by the look on yourclient's face, you probably
should have known that — orat least known someone on
your team who knows that.
But before you hang up yourspurs and abandon your dream
of becoming a respectedleader in technical project
(00:22):
management, keep listening.
We're going to be exploringhow technical you need to
be as a technical PM in2025 — and how team leaders
can support and develop highimpact PMs without sending
them to get their doctoratein DevOps.
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
(00:42):
My name is Galen Low withThe Digital Project Manager.
We're a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
Okay, today we are talking aboutguiding, mentoring, and leading
(01:03):
a team of technical projectmanagers to find that right
balance between technical skillsand people skills and help
them advance their professionalgrowth within an environment
where they need to know enoughbut simply can't know everything
about the technologies thattheir teams are working with.
With me today is Kayla Keizer,Team Lead and Senior Technical
Project Manager at Plank, adigital agency specializing
(01:25):
in web and IT projects forclients in arts and culture,
non profit, and education.
Kay, thanks so muchfor being here today.
Kayla Keizer (01:32):
Thanks for inviting me.
Galen Low (01:34):
I narrowly missed your like Costa Rica background.
You got back from CostaRica today, yesterday?
Kayla Keiz (01:40):
Today, this morning.
Galen Low (01:42):
I was so excited.
I misscheduled this becausewe could have had, a jungle
or a beach in the background.
Kayla Keizer (01:47):
Yeah, it would have been.
It's still green behind me, butit would have been like actual
nature behind me, the jungle.
Galen Low (01:53):
If you're listening to this podcast and not watching
it, just imagine wonderfulnature behind Kay right now.
I thought maybe we could justdive right in and start with
the question that everyone wantsto know the answer to, which
I think is, can you continueto advance as a technical
project manager withouthaving technical training?
(02:14):
Or are you going to hit a wallif you're a technical PM who
like can't debug Python or likewrangle Git or navigate Laravel
or configure a CDN in AWS?
What are your thoughts there?
Kayla Keizer (02:25):
My thoughts are you are part of a team
of technical experts whoat the end of the day it
is their job to debug.
And configure AWS so itdefinitely doesn't fall on
you to do the actual step bystep work, but it's always
good to understand or have abase knowledge of the concept.
(02:48):
If someone mentions Python toyou and you have no idea what
it is not great and that'snot something that's you have
to go to school for, or youneed to be specially trained,
you can Google and get agood understanding or base.
You can ask your team members,Hey, do you mind spending a
little bit more time and givingme a bit more context on this
(03:08):
so that I'm prepared better whenwe're talking about this or when
we're writing up requirements,I can give you the info we need.
That's really the informationyou need to know is
understanding the conceptsand also understanding,
okay, what questions do Ineed to ask in order to give
the development team or thedesigner or the content team,
(03:28):
whatever information theyneed to actually do the thing.
Galen Low (03:32):
Boom.
I love that.
I love that it's not, youmust know everything and go
get formal training for it.
But like the art is actuallyasking the right question,
having the wherewithal to ask,and then also asking the right
questions so that, you can bethat translator, that conduit
for some of this informationto like transfer between your
team and your stakeholders,and I think it's so cool.
(03:53):
I wonder if we could zoomout a bit because Earlier
in your career, you foundyourself in a technical
project management role.
And I think, don't let me putwords in your mouth, but I
think it was at a time whenyou didn't feel all that
technical yourself and itwas like serious technical.
You and I were talkingin the green room.
It was like telecom, whichis full of acronyms, full
(04:14):
of technologies, full of allthese concepts that are pretty
specific to that industry.
And now you've taken that andyou've, let it run its course
or you followed that path andyou now lead a team of technical
project managers at Plank.
What was the first big hurdlethat you faced as a non
technical project managerleading a project team of
like technical specialistsand how did you overcome it?
Kayla Keizer (04:36):
I think you have to overcome
yourself a little bit.
Like you said, I was in deep,I was working with people
who have been in the companyfor 10, 15, even 20 years.
who had not just the technicalexpertise, but a history
and a background of thefoundation of the network.
I was a coordinator at thattime, and I was also working
(04:58):
closely with the director.
And so I was helping him a lot.
Again, I'm working withthe director, 25 year olds.
knew what this tryingto figure it all out.
But the thing for me thathelped me get through it is
you can't shy away from stuff.
You have to get overyourself a little bit.
And yes, it's scary.
(05:18):
And yes, you don't.
know, but you won't know untilyou ask the questions, until
you dive deep into it andyou embrace the challenge.
I find when you embrace things,it starts to go a lot more
smoothly than when you'relike, Oh, this is so crap.
I don't want to do this.
And you procrastinate it.
And you're like, not sure.
And if you put all of thatnegative energy to it, it's
(05:41):
always going to feel tough.
And it's always going tofeel like you're in the mud
trying to get out of it.
So I think really it'smindset and it's making
sure that you fake theconfidence if you have to.
Galen Low (05:54):
I like the idea that, we so often
create our own barriers bygetting in our own heads.
Whereas actually the thing thatmoves it forward is just like
having that mindset of, youknow what, I got to do this and
yeah, maybe faking it a little,but faking it from a standpoint
of being confident enough toask even right now, just being
(06:14):
confident and lying to yourselfthat you do know this stuff.
But like actuallyfiguring out again, to
your point, what to ask.
Kayla Keizer (06:20):
And confidently asking questions, you're
not in the background.
You're not timid.
You're not coming towhoever you need to ask
the question with fear andanxiety, because they're
going to pick up on that.
If you're in a clientmeeting, the client is going
to zoom in and know thatyou're not confident about
what you're talking about.
So that's what I mean when Isay like fake, the confidence
(06:40):
is even if you don't know,it's okay, but at least be.
upfront, be honest and beconfident because people
tend to zoom in or theylose confidence if they feel
like, Oh, they're not evenconfident in themselves.
So how can I haveconfidence in them?
So that's what I mean.
And I think to circle back tolike, how do you get over it?
(07:02):
Once you've get over yourmental barriers, you have to
lean on like your strengths.
My strength was.
I'm really goodat documentation.
I'm really good at understandingtechnical information when it's
explained to me and then takingthat and turning it to a client
or being able to write a ticketor be able to do requirements.
(07:22):
You don't need to betechnical in order to
document and ask questions.
Galen Low (07:28):
Now I really like that because like even when
you think of it as like aliteral translator role, you're
like whatever United NationsGeneral Assembly and like
you're doing a translationdoesn't mean you have to
know how to lead a country.
But your skill, right?
The thing that you wantpeople to have trust in
you about is making thatmessage land in a different
language on the other side.
And I think that's it's sucha strong and valuable role in
(07:50):
the tech world and the IT worldand the digital world where,
that is what you want peopleto build trust in you for.
Not your ability to code ordebug or deploy software,
but knowing how it's doneand being able to at least
drive that conversation andorchestrate everything so
that it does get done in ameaningful and competent way.
Kayla Keizer (08:11):
Yeah.
Galen Low (08:12):
Can I put you on the spot?
Kayla Keizer (08:13):
What?
Galen Low (08:14):
Can I ask you what you feel your scariest "dumb"
question was to ask in theworld of telecommunications?
Kayla Keizer (08:22):
I don't know if there was one specific
question, but I willadmit to not asking enough
questions in the beginning.
And I maybe overassumed my skills.
Galen Low (08:34):
Okay, yeah.
Faking it real hard.
Kayla Keizer (08:37):
Yeah, and they asked me for
some sort of report.
And I went and I made thereport to the best of my
capabilities, didn't ask anyextra questions, didn't ask
how they wanted it, what data.
I was just like, yeah,no, I can do that.
Did the report, gave it to thedirector and he was like, no,
this is not what I asked for.
I was like, oh, and heasked, why didn't you ask
(08:59):
me more like qualifyingquestions if you weren't sure?
And I was like, oh.
I guess I could have.
Galen Low (09:05):
First of all, I applaud that
because it's pretty bold.
And you're coming at it fromthis mindset of actually,
I do know what to do.
And yeah, maybe it didn't hitthe mark, but I think that's
actually, in terms of notgetting stuck in your head and
like going and doing a thing.
Sure.
It wasn't perfect, but Ithink that's actually it's a
pretty bold mindset to have.
Entering an industry and beingnew in that role ish to feel
(09:28):
like, yeah, I got this, but infairness, qualifying questions,
clarifying questions, yeah,never a bad thing to ask when
you're in that environment wherethings are done a certain way
in some of these industries.
Kayla Keizer (09:40):
And it was expected to ask questions.
People expect you to askmore defining questions.
And so for me, itwas a huge learning.
Like now I'm like ask, ask.
Galen Low (09:52):
Now it's yeah, now it's the brand actually,
and it's yeah, I like thatas a cornerstone, like of
your approach really isthat, not only can you not
know everything, But youprobably don't know most
things in a certain way,shape, or form, right?
I'm not insulting anyone'sintelligence who's listening
or watching, but there'sjust so much to know.
Like, how can anyoneknow everything?
The value is finding out.
(10:14):
I did a film studiesmajor in school.
I joke that I like, didn'treally learn anything.
of value, but I did certainlylearn how to deal with people
and collaborate and how to findan answer if I didn't know the
answer and then how to craftthat into a thought that I
could mobilize into action.
And, I think not just folkswho went to university,
but like anyone, right?
(10:35):
That's like that skill that isworthwhile to hone in this day
and age, just because honestly,there's too much to know.
Kayla Keizer (10:40):
And you hit on a very important point.
I think sometimes weunderestimate our soft skills.
And if the organizationwanted a technical PM with, an
engineering background, theywould have hired that person.
If you're a non technicalproject manager in a
(11:01):
technical role, it's probablybecause you have that
strong personable skills.
You are organized, they seeyou, the value outside of the
technical expertise that youbring, you're able to talk to
clients, you're able to talkto the team, you're able to
motivate the team, which issuper important as a project
manager, being able to motivateand lead without having
(11:23):
direct managerial authority.
Galen Low (11:26):
I think it's a hugely good point because in a lot
of the conversations I havewith folks in my community.
It's almost the framingis what don't I have, what
skills don't I have that likeI need to get to become a
technical project manager andnot enough emphasis on okay,
if you're even consideringthat role, yeah, there's some
of these soft skills thatyou'd likely have and could
probably still hone further,that's actually the meaty bit
(11:49):
of the role, that leadershiprole, that communication role.
Kayla Keizer (11:52):
Yeah.
And I have to say, Ijust finished hiring.
And one of the things that Iwas looking for is people who
were able to explain how theywent about finding information
and who were able to explainhow they were able to, because
I asked, I was looking fora technical leaning project
(12:12):
manager and I asked the questionWhat's your methodology to
approach learning new conceptsand they were able to respond
and say that how they weregoing to find the information
and that is valuable likeyou don't need to know but if
you have a method, and you'reable to explain your method
of finding the information.
That's like gold.
Galen Low (12:32):
What is your sort of favorite response to that?
And or maybe even just yourapproach to like finding
answers, especially when likeyou and your team, you deal
with like projects that relateto cyber security and data
and privacy accessibility.
What is a good answer tothat question in terms of
like, how do you approachfinding out an answer to
something you don't know?
Kayla Keizer (12:52):
I always am very curious and I always try
to do my own research myselfas a first step just to get
definitions at the very least.
Be able to knowthe terms, right?
And then I'm a very in person,so I'll figure out who's the
expert on the team, and thenI'll ask that person, Hey,
(13:13):
do you want to sit down withme for 30 minutes just to run
through a couple of things andmaybe can you help me so that
when we're in the next clientmeeting or when I'm writing
the next task for you, I knowexactly what you're looking for.
And of course, they're goingto want to take time because
you're positioning it ashow can I be better so I
help you in the end, right?
(13:33):
That's the value prop for them.
For me, that's what's workedis, do a little bit of
research yourself and getthe experts to help you out.
And you don't need to watch30 hours of YouTube videos.
Galen Low (13:46):
That's what's nice, right?
Because I know somefolks who are like, I
need to learn, whatever,cybersecurity, as an example.
And they're like borderline,like they could probably
do a SOC2 compliance audit.
And I was like, I thinkyou went too far, right?
Whereas I think like yourmodel, what I really like is
a, it's very practical, right?
Like in terms of a case by casebasis, as a project person,
you haven't got 30 hours to sitdown and watch YouTube, but it
(14:08):
is that sort of a very powerfuleducational model where it's
yeah, read some stuff on yourown, be curious on your own
and talk to somebody who knows.
And then I love that nuanceof and there's something
in it for them, right?
It's not just you canuse it strategically as
well to build trust withyour team because you're
curious about what they do.
And frankly, project managers.
(14:29):
Even technical ones, I havea bad reputation of being
like, just, cracking the whip.
I don't care what hasto get done, you have to
get it done by this date.
Don't talk to me aboutall these acronyms.
To come in and be like, can youtell me what this acronym is?
Because it's gonna help me.
And then, it's gonna help you.
I think it's a verypowerful sort of value
proposition as well.
Kayla Keizer (14:48):
Yeah, because it's not just building relationships
with clients, but it's buildingrelationship with the team too.
Spot on that.
Galen Low (14:54):
It's yeah, it's feed two birds with one
scone, to use a PETA metaphor.
You said something earlier thatI thought we could dive into.
It was just not just offlinewith your team to prepare
for a meeting, but sometimesIn real time, in a meeting
with the client, and I'mjust curious you're leading
a team of technical PMs, whatdo you advise them to do if
(15:16):
they get asked a technicalquestion by a client or a
team member, but like in thatreal time situation and they
don't know the answer to it?
Kayla Keizer (15:24):
I always tell them it's okay to say
you don't know the answer.
But I make sure that theyknow who has the answer.
So it's important, and thiscomes back to understanding the
concepts and understanding whodoes what on the team, what's a
front end issue, what's a backend issue, what's an SEO issue.
(15:44):
So when the client askssomething and you might
not know, you can say, youknow what, I don't know.
My X, Y, and Z person on myteam has the information.
I'll take that down right now,and probably in the next 24
hours, I'll get you an answer.
Don't worry, that showsa lot of confidence.
They have a time frame ofwhen they're going to get
the information and theyknow who has the information.
(16:06):
So why would they get butthurtthat you don't have the
answer right in that moment?
Galen Low (16:12):
And highlights the value of your role,
actually, which is a, again,you can use it as this
like combo punch, right?
You're like.
I don't know the answer, but Iknow how everything works here.
Cause I know the team andI know who to ask because I
did understand your question.
I just don't knowthe answer to it.
And then my job is to actuallyplug you into that answer.
(16:32):
That's part of whatI'm doing here is
translating that for you.
So let me go, and get thatand also not perpetuate.
Any preconceived notions thatyou are more technical or are
the Oracle for all the things?
Because it sets a weirdexpectation in terms
of what your role is.
Don't get me wrong.
I don't know.
Do you have anyone on yourteam who like was an engineer
developer or someone whowas actually came more from
(16:56):
that technical backgroundinto project management
instead of the opposite?
Kayla Keizer (17:00):
Not really.
We do have some that dabble,but they're very headstrong into
their lane of being a developerand technical experience.
But I feel like if you're theopposite and you come from
an engineering backgroundand you come into the project
manager realm, you could getinto the trap of not asking
(17:23):
enough questions and assumingthe requirements because you
have too much knowledge, almostright, and so you inadvertently
steer the client or you steerthe project in a direction that
maybe it shouldn't have gone.
Because you've madean assumption instead
of asking a question.
So I do think there can bechallenges and pitfalls having
(17:45):
that technical backgroundand trying to transition into
the project management role.
I sometimes catch myself doingit because I'm at a point now
I know enough to be dangerous.
And so sometimes I'll eventry and without even realizing
asking a question that'ssteering in a direction and
then, one of the teammatesthere on the call and they'll
(18:07):
be like, Oh no, we shouldn'tbe saying it like that.
This is how we should ask.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Galen Low (18:13):
That's such an interesting spin on it though,
because that's where therabbit hole goes, or at least.
The typical path coming fromproject management side into
sort of a more technicalproject manager role is you
start knowing basically nothingand feeling Like you're an
imposter, you don't havethe confidence, or feel like
you're missing something.
And then journeying to thepoint where you're like,
actually, I've learned a lot.
(18:34):
And yeah, I think Iknow the answer now.
And sometimes that might not bethe right way to approach it.
Knowing enough to be dangerous,it actually ends up being
a problem in some ways.
Kayla Keizer (18:45):
Yeah.
Galen Low (18:46):
How do you approach catching yourself on that?
Where you're like, I think Iknow the answer, but I probably
shouldn't answer because I thinkthis person should answer or I
should get the answer from them.
Kayla Keizer (18:56):
For me, it's when I need to give
more of a description ormore of a detailed answer.
So all, no, okay, no, whatyou're asking for is bad UX.
I can't tell you why it's badUX, but I know that it's bad UX.
So in that moment, I'm like,okay, I need to ask or get one
(19:17):
of the team members involved.
Cause I can't give itmore than a yes or no
answer at this point.
Galen Low (19:23):
I love that approach.
It's I have an opinion.
I can give you a yes and noanswer, but I can't explain why.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm going to hand that one off.
Kayla Keizer (19:29):
Exactly.
Galen Low (19:30):
We've been covering some of this in terms of like
soft skills, but I thought it,maybe I just posed a question
anyways, just in your opinion,is a technically trained project
manager possibly better atthe technical PM role than a
non technical PM in terms ofcoming at it that direction?
But mostly, I think what I needto ask is like, when a project
manager is not technical,what is the value that they
(19:52):
are bringing to the table?
And maybe we do a reframe,because I know we've been
talking about soft skills andthings like that, but like,
how would you frame that if youwere trying to get a job as a
technical project manager, butyou don't have all of these
platform certifications andknow all the acronyms and, and.
Kayla Keizer (20:09):
I think if you are in an interview, I
think you have to do your duediligence and understand the
industry and the technologythat company is working with.
So that even if you don'thave a deep understanding,
again, you've done your duediligence, you've gone and
done a little bit of researchand prepared, and you're
able to talk at least highlevel about certain concepts.
(20:30):
And you can talk againabout how you'd be able to.
go deeper or how youwould be able to approach
learning more so that youcould help facilitate the
team even more than that.
I know for myself, it's alsobeen helpful being able to
follow process, like we weretalking about soft skills and
(20:50):
whatnot, but Being a projectmanager, you're bringing also
structure to the project.
We see it all of the time.
There are no projectmanagers involved and
everything goes everywhereand nothing gets done.
So being a champion ofprocess and understanding
the different gates to getfrom A to B to the end of
the project and be able tolaunch, that is a huge quality
(21:14):
that we forget that we have.
We are the driverof the project.
Even if we're not technical,we're still able to move
the project forward.
Galen Low (21:23):
I love that.
Yeah, like the value iswe give structure and
you raise a good point.
Like earlier on, it's ifyou're in an interview
for a technical PM role.
They would have just called ita PM role if they didn't expect
some level of understanding.
So do your homework.
Don't just assume that you canbe like, I'm good with people.
And that's probably perfectfor this role because there
(21:45):
is some intent behind it toactually give it that title
of technical project manager.
There is a level of expectation.
It's good practice to do thatdue diligence going into an
interview, because guess what?
That's probably whatyou'll be doing like
in your job too, right?
Like doing a bit of, the Kapproach, just like reading
up, getting smart, talkingto somebody who's smarter,
(22:06):
then off to the races.
Kayla Keizer (22:08):
Yeah.
Galen Low (22:09):
Maybe I'll round out with this.
We've been talkingabout technical project
management, and I thinkwe've landed in a zone where.
Yeah, you have to be curious,but you don't have to be
necessarily a developer.
You don't necessarily have tobe deeply technical yourself.
But if you had someone on yourteam, or if you knew someone
who was a project manager,debating whether to deepen
(22:32):
their specialization as atechnical project manager.
In other words, they'reactually hungry to learn more.
What advice wouldyou give to them?
Would you advise thatmaybe they pursue some of
these certifications likeAWS or maybe take that
web development course?
Or would you view itas maybe sending them
down the wrong path?
Kayla Keizer (22:49):
I think if they are evaluating that, I
think they should evaluatewhere they want to take their
career and in what alley.
For example, if you arereally into security, then
definitely get some websecurity certificates, really
brush up on that so thatyou're able to talk to that
and understand the concepts.
(23:10):
If you're really intoaccessibility and championing
accessibility, understandwhat the core principles
are about accessibilityand how to go about it.
We don't code.
At least I don't know anyproject managers that code,
so you don't need to code.
But if you are looking to gointo a specific industry, there
(23:32):
might be certificates thatyou can get for a specific
industry to be able to brushup on so that you can bring
that into an interview.
Galen Low (23:39):
Yeah, I love that because also sometimes
I forget we're talkingabout specialization
is about specificity.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think as you're talkingto Oh yeah, like maybe the
wrong thing to do would be tohave a hundred specializations
because then you're like,what is it that you do?
But whereas if you likehad one deep niche that you
(24:00):
were deeply passionate aboutthat you're interested in,
like cybersecurity is thething that I enjoy, I am
passionate about projectmanagement and cybersecurity.
And yeah, when you wouldever hire me or promote me
into a role, this is whatyou're getting, because I
have both versus just likespecializing in too many things.
To look too much like a Jack ofall trades and quote unquote,
(24:25):
that overqualified sort ofresponse that you get, yeah,
you look a bit, I don't know,overqualified and really what
they mean is it doesn't looklike you can decide what it
is you do or communicate tome what it is that you do that
makes you special and different.
Kayla Keizer (24:38):
And I think people don't realize how many
directions you can go withthe web with internet and
technology this day and age.
I was in telecom, there's peoplewho are project managers in
telecom and that's what theydo and they understand the
hardware and they understandhow to set up a network and
that's their specialization.
(24:58):
So if you're looking tospecialize, figure out what
industry you want to be incyber security, telecom,
web development, there's somany different niches, and
there's a lot of opportunity.
Galen Low (25:11):
I love that.
Maybe I'll tie it all theway back to the beginning
because we're talking aboutlike leading and mentoring
a team of technical PMs.
And a lot of this kindof each individual team
member will learn some ofthese things on the fly.
Do you have a mechanism atPlank or like a community to
practice where you can sharesome of the learnings on the
go between project managers?
Kayla Keizer (25:28):
Yeah, so I meet with my team like once
a week and we review stuff,but I also have like once
a month we meet all of us.
And we talk about challengesand we talk about like project
progress, we talk about process.
And we also have, a privateSlack channel where we
(25:49):
can air our grievances.
But that's how wecommunicate together.
I actually been usinga lot of the DPM.
I've been going along through itwith one of my employees, just
to give them a more base or moreinformation in a different way.
You do the PMP certificationor the CMPM certification
(26:12):
and then especially indigital, you get to web
development and you don't evenunderstand how it translates.
So having that extra bitof content to be able to
translate basically principlesinto actionable items.
Is very value.
Galen Low (26:31):
So glad that you're using it.
Thank you for that.
But you're right.
There's so many placesto go in the web.
And it's it would beunreasonable in some ways
to like, Assume that anorganization like the project
management Institute couldcreate the perfect thing.
That's going to answerall the world's questions.
We started this as, youcan't know everything.
And I think that's actuallya lovely poetic place
(26:52):
to land where it's like.
Cool.
Yeah, deepen where you havepassion, where you have
interest, where you havecuriosity, understand the world
that you operate within and,ask questions, stay curious.
Kayla Keizer (27:05):
And I think it's important to acknowledge
where you are too, right?
If you're just starting out.
You're just starting out.
No one is expecting you to be 10years in day one, and it's okay.
Don't feel like an imposter.
Don't have that nervousness.
Acknowledge where youare and people will
meet you where you are.
(27:25):
I think that's one of the thingsthat I remind my team multiple
times when they feel like theyshould have known something.
You are where you are today.
And in 10 years or in fiveyears, you're going to
be in a different spaceand the expectations are
going to be different.
Galen Low (27:40):
I love that.
That's such solid advice.
Kay, thank you so much forspending the time with me today.
I've had so much fun.
Kayla Keizer (27:47):
Awesome.
Thanks for inviting me.
Galen Low (27:48):
Yeah, it's a pleasure.
It's a pleasure.
All right folks,there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head on over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
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