April 8, 2025 • 45 mins
Thinking about pivoting into project management but feeling lost in a sea of acronyms and conflicting advice? You’re not alone. The path to becoming a PM can seem unclear, with vague skill requirements and misleading job descriptions making it even harder to break in.
Host Galen Low sits down with Barbara Kephart, founder of Projects Pivot, to cut through the confusion. They dive into what it really takes to transition into project management, how to decode industry jargon, and why community support is key to navigating this rewarding career shift.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- The PM Coffee Spot — the community for new and aspiring project people
- Connect with Barbara on LinkedIn
- Check out Projects Pivot
- Projects Practice — learning management system
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Galen Low (00:00):
You've read through that “how to become a project
(00:02):
manager” article 15 timesnow, and now you are sure;
you are absolutely sure thatthere were almost certainly
far too many consonants andnot enough vowels throughout.
But somehow you're no closerto understanding how to pivot
into project management.
PMP, CAPM, RACI,Gantt, Monte Carlo...
Is this the first test toweed out the weak-willed
(00:24):
from entering the field?
If you've been interestedin pivoting your career into
project management — but youhaven't managed to get a clear
answer out of Google, ChatGPT,or Perplexity, keep listening.
We're gonna be doing apractical-tactical, no-nonsense
exploration of what it reallytakes to figure out if pivoting
into project management isthe right decision for you.
(00:48):
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withthe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
And if you're intofuture-forward conversations
and practical insights arounddigital project leadership,
(01:11):
consider subscribing to theshow for weekly episodes.
Okay, today we're talking abouthow to make the pivot into
project management and therole that community can play
in decoding the rather opaqueacronyms, and the vague skill
requirements, and the misleadingrole descriptions that all too
often prevent professionalsfrom pursuing a rewarding
(01:31):
career in leading projects.
With me today is BarbaraKephart, the founder and Chief
Project Officer at ProjectsPivot — which offers a unique
blend of dedicated projectmanagers, strategic project
portfolio guidance and practicalPM training, creating a perfect
formula for successful projects.
Barb is also my partner in crimeleading things at our community
(01:52):
for new and aspiring projectmanagers, The PM Coffee Spot.
Barb, thanks forjoining me today.
Barbara Kephart (01:56):
Thanks, Galen.
It's always goodhanging out with you.
Galen Low (01:59):
I know this is like a regular hangout,
but we get to record itand share it with folks.
It's funny because I'm toldthat like my intro is like my
radio voice and then I like theepisode starts and I'm like,
we, so this is one of those.
Barbara Kephart (02:10):
You just go a regular day one?
Galen Low (02:11):
Yeah.
If you're new to the show,I record my intro every time
and sometimes I have coolfriends on the show like Barb.
Barbara Kephart (02:19):
I don't have a radio voice,
so I'm quite jealous.
Galen Low (02:23):
I don't know.
With great power comesgreat responsibility.
You know how it goes.
You and I, we go way back.
We each have been helping peopleget into project management,
succeed at project management,learn project management,
just navigate a careeraround project management.
And we know it's hard for folks.
There's lots of folks tryingto learn about it, trying
to figure it out, trying tosee if it's for them without
(02:46):
wasting too much time.
I thought maybe I'd juststart with a question that
everyone wants to know theanswer to, which is, why is
project management such ahard career to get into and
what's the biggest myth ormisconception that you see
preventing people from gettingstarted in project management?
Barbara Kephart (02:59):
Yeah.
Such a great way tostart project management.
I think we make it harder thanwe can be because those of us
who love project manager, wetry to make a lot of things
harder than what it should be.
And even when we manageproject, we sometimes make it
harder than what it could be.
I think that in that wedon't always sell ourselves
as best as we could.
I've been calling myselfthe geeky PM lately.
(03:21):
They can solve allcompany's problems without
being annoying or pushy.
I remember somebody tellingme once that we don't do
pushy PMs in this company,and I thought, the geeky
PM meaning that we love thedetails, we love getting in
there and not everybody does.
And actually that's a reliefto companies to hear that.
So feel free interview toborrow the geeky p wording.
(03:42):
Because I think that's whatpeople want, and I think once
they hear that, it's not as hardto get in there because there's
many of us who are tryingto sell ourselves as getting
into project management roles.
But it's hard for those on thereceiving end to know who can
actually do it and who can't.
I think those are thethings that people really
have to understand.
And then to that point,I think we also make it
(04:04):
harder on ourselves becausewe're stuck on job titles.
We think that there needs tobe the word project in a job
title when we're applying forit, where we're thinking of
advancing within our currentorganization that we work at.
Many project management rolesout there nowadays, I shouldn't
say project management roles.
Many positions that are outthere nowadays have project
management pieces built in,such as team lead or a program
(04:27):
manager or an implementationmanager, analyst workflow lead.
Recently I came across aworkflow lead that I was working
with somebody on, and it wasactually, she was working in an
accounting firm at my accountingoffice, and I was like, you
are managing projects, but youcall yourself a workflow lead.
I thought that was really good.
And then the best one too,if you are really having a
tough time getting in thereto this field, is thinking
(04:48):
about the admin role.
Admin roles are just filled withproject management in there,
and once you get into an admin,you can make your way through
the organization to get furtherand further advancing in there.
And then sometimes theyalso, these positions
fall in your lap.
You might be the one that'sdoing the projects within a
company, but you have nothingrelated to that in anything
that you're doing anywhere else.
(05:09):
But you've identified thatthere's a project because.
Looking at it from a differentview sometimes can help make
it easier for you to be ableto get into those positions.
Galen Low (05:20):
I love that.
Barbara Kephart (05:21):
Yeah.
The next is just what youwere talking about, the
myth or misconception.
So that one is also thatpeople think they don't
have enough experience.
And I know you and I havetalked about this a lot
before, that people don'tthink they have enough
experience managing projects.
Many of us who love doing this.
We've been doing it a long time.
We're the ones who areplanning the birthday parties.
We've talked about this.
(05:41):
What is the first projectyou've ever planned?
Many people, it's somethingwith their kids or their family.
I know that while I wasstill wet, I wasn't even
a project manager yet.
I had a regular nine tofive or plus a job as
a healthcare provider.
'cause I was also on call andI was on maternity leave with
my second daughter and I wasvolunteering at her preschool.
And within a week or so,because I was feeling better
(06:02):
and I wasn't ready to goback to work yet, I had
organized their art closet.
I had created all new processesfor all the kids, for every time
on how to organize everything.
But these are projectsso people think that they
don't have enough experienceand they wouldn't know
how to manage a project.
Once you're in there andyou have that aptitude to
be a good project manager,it comes naturally.
(06:22):
A lot of this we, I've talkedabout recently too with my
colleague Laura Hartner,where we've been working on,
because there are people thatnot only are project managers
like you and I, which I'msure we'll be talking about
mentoring at some point.
'cause you and I always getinto the conversation around
mentoring when we talk.
But there are career transitionspecialists like Laura out
there who can not only helpyou pivot in a way that
(06:44):
we as project managers cando, but also can help you.
Put all that down so thatpeople on the receiving end
of it, against all the othernoise can help understand it.
And I know she and I havecreated a couple of little
e-learning or offeringsthat we call learning
offerings that we call.
Get a PM job aroundwriting your PM resume
and AC your PM interview.
(07:05):
So those are my highlevel thoughts on
whether it's hard or not.
Galen Low (07:09):
Are those courses available now?
Barbara Kephart (07:11):
Yeah, I'm just working on
getting them out there.
Our learning management systemis called projectspractice.com.
Galen Low (07:16):
Gosh, okay.
There's so much there thatI want to dive into because
actually I think the othersort of misconception you
touched on first, which isthat the bossy PM is a PM.
And a lot of people, you'reright, I don't think a lot
of people have looked atit as the geeky PM, right?
The person gets into the weedsand deals with complexity,
but like it's a joy in away to unravel the yarn.
I definitely have seen peoplewho are like, oh, I'm bossy.
(07:40):
I'm gonna be a great PM.
And then I've seen peoplesay, oh, I'm not bossy.
I probably won't be a good PM.
And frankly, the person who isnot bossy often I use the word
bossy, like loosely, but likeperson who's yeah, I don't know
if I really feel comfortablelike telling people what to do.
I've got a bit ofimposter syndrome.
I have to learn stuffthat I don't know.
Might actually be a betterfit than somebody who's yeah,
(08:01):
I'm just gonna go in and tellpeople what to do and then sit
on my laurels, put my feet up,and then whenever something
goes wrong, I'm gonna throw'em under the bus actually
end up being the worst PMs andoften other people who decide
to pursue it and then realizeit's really not for them.
They're like, oh wait, what'sthis servant leadership?
No.
I didn't sign up for that.
I think that'slike a big barrier.
And then the experiencething, I just think, yeah,
(08:22):
it's been a thing forgosh, I did my PMP in 2014.
I've been into projectmanagement for gosh, 15 years
or more, and 15 years ago,probably even before that.
That was the big thing, waslike, oh, I don't know if
I have enough experience.
What is a project andhow can I talk about it?
If it wasn't my job title, canI still put it on my resume?
(08:43):
Can I still talk aboutit in an interview?
And that's been going onfor decades and decades.
Barbara Kephart (08:47):
Yeah.
Let's talk about the, whetheryou need a PMP or not right
away, because I actuallygot mine later than you.
I got mine in 2016.
However, I had been managingprojects for 25 years
prior to that as part ofmy direct work that I was
doing, healthcare providerplus working in healthcare.
It, however, it just, Ijust never got to it and I
wasn't working in a directlyin A PMO at that point.
(09:08):
And usually all the projectmanagement office folks
got the PMP and noneof the rest of us did.
So it wasn't really a priorityuntil it became available to
me educational wise to go inand get my actual certificate
in project management,followed by my p and p. And I
think that there's also thisbelief that we need to have a
certification after our name,before we can get the job.
(09:31):
And I think that belief isbeing fed by the fact that
many positions out theresay they require a PMP.
So back to what I was sayingearlier is sometimes you
might be focusing so muchon the project management.
Job role or the projectmanager job role and forgetting
that a lot of these otherjobs, you can still do your
geeky project management ina different role that isn't
(09:52):
called project manager.
Maybe later you met mightget the project manager role.
For years, I didn't havea project manager role.
I wanted it.
But that would've meant Iwould've had to go into the
project management office,and that means my director
and myself wouldn't beable to manage the projects
in the way that we wereknowing that they were.
We were doing a reallygood job at doing it.
Because we would've hadlimitations, which are fine
limitations to have as part ofa project management office,
(10:14):
especially enterprise wide.
And then going back to what yousaid about the bossy PM Yes.
Bossy PMs, a lot of timesthey're very good at getting in.
They're very good atgetting in the door.
But be careful of thatbecause I think there's an
awareness now of the bossy PM.
Yes, bossy PM when you interviewand when you're going in, or
(10:34):
when you're switching roleswithin your organization can be
great because you're assertive.
You're showing yourstuff, you're doing it.
However, bossy PMs don'twork when the project
is going sideways.
In fact it couldn't ruffle morefeathers than if you're more
of the middle of the ground PMwhere you bossy when you need to
be and calm when you need to be.
(10:57):
And a combination.
Everything in life is aboutbalance and really having the
ability to know when to stayquiet and know when to speak
up is a huge asset that aproject manager needs to have.
Galen Low (11:08):
I love that about balance.
You also do a bit of anassessment with some of
the folks who come throughyour mentorship program.
I think you call it aseatbelt session and I
think it's 'cause buckle up.
We're gonna tell you somethingthat you might not want to hear.
No.
But it's about have you gotthat balance and could project
management be right for you?
Have I gotten it right?
Barbara Kephart (11:27):
Yeah.
So we have two things.
We have a, something called aseatbelt session, and that's
what we do with our companiesthat we work with and that's
working with the leadershipplus the project managers that
they have managing the projects,whether it's their own internal
project managers or we bringthem in a fractional basis
out of our organization in.
And that's where we assessabout what are you doing,
how have you been doing it?
How have you been usingproject management techniques.
(11:48):
So it's that setting thebaseline for the project.
And we call that a seatbeltsession for our folks that
are coming in that we don'tknow or we're working with
them within the company.
We call that our projectmanagement knowledge
gap assessment.
And that's where we assessand eventually we are
gonna be getting that upon projects practice.com.
We're gonna do like a miniversion of it for people
to try out themselves.
And this is where weassess people's aptitude
(12:11):
for project management.
And I like the wordaptitude because just like
I have curly blonde hair.
That's how we cameinto this world.
And I believe that's howproject managers come into
this world is that we come inwith certain characteristics
that make us who we are.
I think this is the thingthat when you look at these
(12:32):
types of assessments, and infact our project management
institute, our governingbody does versions of this
assessment when they test us.
Galen Low (12:38):
Ah, yeah.
Barbara Kephart (12:40):
That's why sometimes people pass right
away because it logicallymakes sense to them, and then
other people might struggle.
And I'm not saying that'sthe only reason, there's
other reasons involved, butthe things I know before,
I don't know about you, butwhen I took mine, they had
just started switching it tomore logic-based questions.
Project managers are verylogical, and this is something
(13:00):
we have from the time we're veryyoung and these are the traits
that we carry and the abilityto critically think, the ability
to look ahead, the ability to beable to plan things in advance.
Many people, they just havetrouble for whatever reason
it is, whether they're bornthat way, life circumstances
have led them that way.
They really can only thinkto the next task, and
(13:22):
even that's a struggle.
Which is not a good projectmanagement trait to have.
Galen Low (13:26):
Is it learnable though?
We're talking about, beingborn with curly blonde hair
and folks who are listening,who are going, oh, I'd love
to be a project manager.
I think I'd be great.
Am I logical?
Yeah.
I don't know.
I. I don't know if I'm logical.
I guess maybe.
Maybe I can't do this.
Can some of thesethings be taught?
Can I learn to havecurly blonde hair?
Barbara Kephart (13:44):
I believe so.
You can get a permand you can dye it.
Yes, I believe so.
I'll say that with a littlebit of a caveat because I
believe, yes, you can learnit however we all know it.
When those projects get bigand messy and off the wall
where you're like, oh my gosh.
There are many people thatI have seen that have done
excellent up to that point.
(14:06):
As soon as the chaos creeps in,they freeze for whatever reason.
That's a whole different levelof learning and some people
may not be able to ever learnthat because they prefer order.
Another trade ofproject managers is we
like things in order.
So there's a two part on thatis not only do we like to
have things in order and we'revery good at keeping things
in order and we can be taughthow to keep things in order.
You hear the classic personwho is a, a pack rat and then
(14:28):
in time they are like, oh, Ireally like having my house
organized now and I'm gonnastart cleaning things up and
it keeps order in their life.
That said, we also have tobe very flexible that when
things get messy quick, wealso have to have that ability.
I'm not sure if that lastability is learnable.
Galen Low (14:45):
That's fair.
That's actuallyinteresting actually.
I really love that framingthough, because it's I do
think a lot of folks, they'replanning their career.
They're like, yeah, ona fair weather day when
things are going well, Icould totally do that job.
Whereas actually the rightmindset might be like, could
I do this job when everythingis crashing around me?
And that might be true ofany job, not just project
management, but it's like,what about a bad day?
(15:05):
Could I handle a bad day whenthings are not going my way?
Do I have the aptitude to managethat, whether that's stress
management or staying organizedand calm under pressure, or
using assertiveness as a tool.
Not necessarily makingit the core part of your
character, but you can pullit out when you need it.
I like that framing of just likeproject management on a bad day.
They're hard days.
Barbara Kephart (15:26):
I encourage people to think about that.
When things go bad in your life,when you're having that bad
day or that bad week or a badyear, really go back to that
and say, how did I get throughthat and how well did I do it?
Now, remember, it's goingto get better the more bad
years you have, meaning thatyou're gonna learn more and
more techniques out of that.
So the more bad days, themore bad months, the more
(15:48):
bad years you're gonna getsome learning out of that's
going to help you handle more.
So that's where maybe I'llgo back on what I just said,
that it's not learnable.
Maybe it is depending on howmuch bad you've had, right?
Yes.
I know myself, I like tosay I grew up in a chaotic
Irish Italian family and Ihad to learn how to manage
them, and I found that wasactually doable for me.
(16:10):
I also went into thehealthcare space where I
was having to be on callin the middle of the night.
And so I would be wokenup just like any on-call
professional and have tofunction very quickly in
an emergency situation withpatients in the emergency room.
And so those skills helpedme that when a project goes
sideways, quickly, to be ableto go oh, and I even have
(16:30):
some techniques that I'vebrought from my healthcare
experience that I now use withmy businesses and companies
and folks that I train to say,okay, this is how we're gonna
start sorting through it.
So I am gonna go back on whatI said, that it's not learnable
or perhaps it's not learnableand say, yes, it's learnable
if you're willing to learn it.
Galen Low (16:46):
Fair.
And also, I think the thing thatreally resonated with me earlier
is you said like aptitude,maybe it is core in some way.
There's certain things thatyou may be born with, but
it's a balance and almost likeadjusting that balance of the
aptitudes or the qualities orthe traits that you have to fit
into that puzzle piece of, yes,my project's going sideways, or,
(17:08):
yes, there's chaos around me.
I think that's the thingthat unlocks it, and then
paying attention to it.
Learning how to use thataptitude, whatever it may be.
It's not cookie cutter,but how can you find that
balance of your traits?
To tackle this problem and thenget better and better at it.
And I think that's what Iwas taking from what you were
saying is like the learningbit is not learning to
change your stripes, right?
(17:29):
As a zebra.
The learning bit is tounderstand what that balance
of your traits is to helpyou succeed at this role.
And then leaning into thatand going, okay, how can I get
more comfortable with this?
How can I refine and optimizemy approach to these things?
Which is to say thatlike I'm not someone who
naturally, like I'm not thebirthday party planner, do
not let me plan a birthday.
I am not that person on paper.
(17:50):
I'm actually quite a, I'dprobably be a very bad project
manager, but there is somethingthat honestly took a lot
of work, was not natural.
Took a lot of work to getinto and yeah, I do think
that framing is useful.
It's not necessarily, no, youcan't be a project manager.
You don't have these things,but it might be more work
for some than others.
Barbara Kephart (18:11):
I really like that.
I love the way you explain thatbecause it's the reframing of
it and the ones that I find thattheir longevity within the field
is questionable are the onesthat when things get messy, they
literally, and no joke, hidebehind their computer screen.
They sit in meetings and itseems like their laptop lid
(18:32):
is being covered over theirhead because their head is so
far down, and instead, this iswhen our head needs to be up.
And it's okay to do thatonce or twice maybe.
However, we really need to seethat growth, that learning,
that expansion of, okay,we've had this project going.
Things are going really well.
Something could go wrong.
Remember whole other discussion.
(18:53):
We talk about risk managementcreating, this is a whole part.
Could, we could turn thewhole podcast into risk
around this one particular.
Topic, but identifying whatcould potentially happen, being
prepared for it, and if andwhen it happens, being ready
for it, which means gettingaway from your computer and
starting to talk to thosepeople, to your stakeholders,
(19:14):
figuring out what's goingon, which can be very
uncomfortable for some people.
That communication, get 'emgetting right up in front of
people saying What happened?
Those are all the things.
So yes, there's a learningand evolving that happens
as you're going through thisprocess of understanding how
projects work with a wholebunch of very complex people.
Galen Low (19:34):
You know what's really interesting?
Building on that, but actuallycoming back to something you
said earlier, which is likesome of the best quote unquote
training you had for projectmanagement was like your family
or working in medicine andlike being in an OR, or like
being someone who's on calland having the resilience to
deal with stressful situationsand then going back further
where you're like folks whodon't have quote unquote
(19:55):
project management experience.
There's a way to framesome of these things
that we're talking about.
We are low key, giving amasterclass on how to frame
your value and understandhow you'll drive value as a
project manager, if that'ssomething you're interested in.
Whether or not you've had thattitle before, whether or not
you have a PMP, whether or notyou've been doing project work
even there are these sort oftraits and qualities that are
(20:17):
very valuable in the projectmanager role that you can
acquire and probably alreadyhave even if you haven't been
a project manager before.
Barbara Kephart (20:26):
In drawing on those experiences, you and
I talked to somebody on our,which I will be talking about
I'm sure PM Coffee spot, wherehe was mentioning his family
upbringing caused him to.
Really and the issues that hedealt with within his family.
We've also talked to othersthat have had very difficult
journeys moving countries,and many of the international
(20:46):
students I teach you havea project just getting
here into this classroom.
You went through an entireprocess to leave your country.
That's whole, a wholepiece in itself.
But also enrolling in a programin a different country and in
particular project managementprogram like that is a project.
Those pieces you can drawon when you're talking with
people about you being veryeffective at this role because
(21:09):
you've overcome adversity.
And that's what we do inprojects is we overcome a lot
of obstacles and hurdles thatget in our way, and that's what
makes us good at what we do.
Galen Low (21:19):
I'm totally that guy as well.
As a hiring manager, I'mlike, I'm trying to figure
out what that candidate.
Looks like when they're havingthat bad day with a tough day,
when things are going wrong andhow they deal with a problem.
And we're trained to go ininto an interview and be like,
oh, my projects are perfect.
Yeah.
On scope, on time, on budget.
Yeah.
That's me.
And you're like no.
That might havebeen the outcome.
Tell me how younavigated the adversity.
(21:40):
And I think anyone who has astory about solving a problem
under stress can tell a reallygood story in an interview
for a project manager role.
You mentioned PM Coffee Spot.
I wanna dive in there andmaybe just zoom out a little
because at some point last yearyou came to me with an idea
to set up a community for newand aspiring project managers.
Coming from any industry andany background, we ended up
(22:03):
calling it the PM Coffee Spot.
Can you tell us what the PMCoffee Spot is and what it
means for you, and why is itso important for you to invest
your time and energy into?
Barbara Kephart (22:12):
And I came to you as part of the digital
project manager because DPMis so incredibly beautifully
focused on the digital PMs.
Yet I work with people acrossall industries, and I knew
that whether you're a digitalproject manager or a healthcare
project manager, a technicalproject manager, you know
any of those, there's stillthe same need where you have
questions to ask and you're notreally sure where to ask them.
(22:35):
You need some resources thatyou know are not only easy to
read, but are reliable becausethere's so much out there that.
When I search somethingor I ChatGPT it, I'm like,
eh, it's not quite right.
But because I've been doing ita while I know that we also,
the common thing that I get fromfolks is they want a place to
network and they wanna placethe network that's safe outside
of the social medias thatare out there right now that.
(22:58):
They're not really surewhere their information goes.
They don't want theiremployer finding it.
And then of course, all ofthose fits into those who
are either just starting outor interested in getting a
career in project management.
And so the concept of a forum,which is something that's been
reentered back into our world.
And yeah, like early daysof project, early days, the
internet forums were so popularand they reentered back in.
(23:20):
And so creating a forum that'sa safe place, it's someplace
that they can explore.
I think that was justreally fitting and.
I had a version of this whenI first started, specifically
in project management, notnecessarily as a healthcare
provider, but I had it inthe form of a couple mentors.
I could talk with them, Icould discuss with them.
We kinda had our ownlittle mini forum and I
(23:40):
thought we're global now.
This was back in person dayswhere you actually had to debate
the office every single day.
And so I wanted to build tocreate a place that people
felt safe, that they couldshare their information and
have those mentors available.
So we've created something.
Over time, it's evolving.
Still speaking, evolution seemsto be the term of the topic
(24:00):
of this podcast right now.
It's evolving over time, butwe are bringing a place where
it's a whole bunch of mentorsthat you and I are finding.
It's not just you or I, we'refinding all these various
mentors from all differentlevels of experience, some just
early stages themselves, butthey've really accomplished
something, others reallylate stage and we're building
a community around that.
And I think that's the keyin this is it's a, I think we
(24:23):
use the word landing place,the safe landing place for
people to go and just say, Iwanna ask this dumb question.
And I think this is a placeI can ask that dumb question.
Yes.
It's, I asked a lot ofdumb questions when I first
started do, and actuallythis is so something we do.
Galen Low (24:39):
That's a skill.
I love what you're sayingabout that in terms of
conversations with mentors andthe world's a big place now.
And yes, honestly, I'vebeen really impressed
with generative ai.
I think, ChatGPT, perplexity,Gemini, you name it, all
of those things are quiteincredible tools in terms
(25:00):
of gathering knowledge.
And yet when you said that, Iwas like, yeah, it's something
that's not quite the same ashaving a mentor to talk to.
At least for me it's not, Iknow there might be some folks
who are like, no, whatever.
I put it on chat mode.
It sits next to me all day.
I chat to it all day.
It is my mentor.
It knows everything on theinternet, but sometimes I just
wanna know something that's noton the internet, but you were
talking about stories, aboutpeople's upbringing and like
(25:22):
big moves, the things that kindof shaped us as humans and has
influenced or provided someinput into how we do our jobs.
It doesn't strike me as likeLLM-able, if that makes sense.
Do you know what I mean?
It's tell me a story of howBarb got off one night on call
as a healthcare practitionerand made it work with a
(25:43):
nuclear medicine background.
It's I don't thinkthey'll know that story.
Maybe if he itsomewhere, I think,
Barbara Kephart (25:48):
yeah, I think it'll find it and it'll try
and extract some those pieces.
But the person's gonna haveanother question because
they're gonna read it andthey're gonna be like what
did you do around this?
And how did you, especiallyin nuclear medicine in
particular, many patientshave very chronic or very
serious diagnoses, right?
Cancer, heart disease.
So they're scared.
(26:09):
And so when you're tryingto get information out of a
stakeholder, and especiallya very sick and scared
stakeholder, none of these toolsare going to help you get that
because they're not human and.
Back to a group of mentors.
First of all, you cannever have enough of them.
And that's what I knowwe're trying to do with
the PM Coffee Spot.
And these mentors, we can'ttalk in these tools yet.
(26:33):
Maybe in the future let's giveus another, maybe they will be
able to create versions of us.
But for right now, the humanexperience that people need
to get themselves throughthe next step of a project
is still with a human.
And those tools, they dohave a tendency to point,
and the advantage to them,as I find is they are sending
leaders more and more tobeing like, maybe we need
(26:55):
to manage this as a project.
Dah.
We've known that for a longtime, that we need to use
project management techniques.
So a lot of the answers they'regiving, and that's good because
that is people like us who arefeeding them that information.
So I think that's reallygood, which will help
increase our field and,improve our field with the
recognition that we need.
But back to whether that toolcan give you that answer of
what did you do in the middleof the night when you couldn't
(27:17):
get information out of a verysick patient for whatever
reason, or what did you do?
When you were about todo a go live on a Monday
morning at 7 (27:25):
00 AM and you found out Sunday night that
your major stakeholder wasunreachable, one of your key
stakeholders was unreachable.
I don't know if AI yet or any ofthose tools, a Google search is
going to give you that answer.
They're gonna give you genericanswers, but a real life
person is gonna say, oh yeahwhen that happened to me, and
(27:46):
then if I don't know, if ithasn't happened to me, I'm
gonna go to my other mentorsor my community and say, Hey,
anybody had this situation?
We have someone needs it.
It's even gonna be quicker thana search, because someone's
gonna say, yes, I got it.
Galen Low (27:59):
It comes back to something you were saying
earlier too, where it's like I'ma firm believer that, especially
in project management, thereisn't usually one right answer.
And I think everyonehas their own style as a
professional, not, not evenjust a project manager.
Everyone has their own style asa professional, and sometimes,
the art is to be able tosynthesize your own truth from
the information you're given.
(28:19):
Not be given one answer and go,okay, that must be the answer.
Off we go.
And I think that's the beauty ofcommunity is that yeah, you're
gonna get a couple differentpeople respond in different
ways and some people will agreeand some people will disagree.
And it's all aboutgoing, okay, that sounds
like it'll work for me.
That's something that I can try.
I'm gonna changethese three things.
'cause like I'm not that personwho's so bold and extroverted
(28:41):
or whatever as that personis, but I'm gonna extract
my truth from it and I'mgoing to let it inform what
I'm going to do in my style.
Not necessarily theone right answer.
And that's like I hadcrafted this LinkedIn post
and I never posted it, butit was like the I'm feeling
lucky button on Google.
I always hated it, not because,I'm sure it does great things
for some searches, but whenI'm looking for, I don't
(29:03):
know, something I'm doingresearch on, I don't want
the first pop ranking answer.
I don't wanna just gothere and be like, that
must be the answer.
I want multiple inputs so that Ican make a decision for myself.
And that's just how I'm wired.
And I think coming back towhat you're saying about like
the learning isn't necessarilychanging your stripes.
And it's not necessarily alljust technical skills, but it's
almost like learning how tolearn how to ask dumb questions,
(29:24):
how to like ingest smartanswers, sometimes dumb answers.
You know what I mean?
And parse that andmake that your own.
And I think as aproject manager, it's
such a great skill.
Talk to a bunch of people.
Figure out what actually mattersand doesn't, where there's
risk, where there's not risk,what's gonna have an impact and
what's not gonna have an impact.
Parsing all that information andthen keeping the boat on course
(29:47):
amidst choppy waters on baddays, on days when you can't get
ahold of that key stakeholder.
That actually is the skill.
Barbara Kephart (29:54):
It is.
And then going back towhat you just said, talk
to trusted people, trustedmentors, trusted stakeholders.
When you search, going backto the, I feel lucky that
information is coming fromeither what Google identifies as
the most accurate information,which is fine, but it's
also coming from a pool ofpeople that you don't know.
And when it comes from apool of people that you
(30:14):
trust and if anybody hasheard me speak before, I'm
all about trust in projects.
That's a huge topic forme because it helps us
build the trust within ourstakeholders and people rely
on you, blah, blah, blah.
Once again, another wholeother podcast topic, however.
When you work from a poolof trusted mentors and a
trusted community, you feelbetter about that information.
(30:35):
Being as accurate as you canto move forward to the next
step may not always work.
You may have to come backand say, oh, didn't work.
Can we try another make?
You're still coming from that.
When you pull it off of a tool,it's great, but it's pulling off
information that's out there inthe world, which may not distill
down tight enough for whatyou need, and you're not sure
if this is trustable or not.
Galen Low (30:55):
I really like that.
Just knowing the authorof the information,
I think is important.
It's important forlearning about project
management or anything.
It's also important in projectmanagement, like on a day-to-day
basis or anything, any job.
Barbara Kephart (31:09):
And the mentors that, that I know that you and
I talk with and work with, andwhen we create community around.
They've not only beenin the weeds, but we've
lost sleepover projects.
We've got ourselves backin the weeds sometimes.
I like to say we managed ourproject into a dark closet
and we can't find our wayout, and we've got our team in
there with us and we're like,ah, we don't know what to do.
Those are the things you may notbe able to find on the internet
(31:30):
or in a ChatGPT tool or any ofthe tools that are out there.
You may not be able to findthat people are a group of
people who have been reallystuck, and I think sometimes
we search because we're stuck.
Sometimes we might be searchingin the wrong places, and
instead we might need todraw from a community or a
person or a group of people.
Galen Low (31:47):
Actually, maybe we can take it there
and put you on the spot.
If you're somebody who'slearning about project
management, you're tryingto pivot in, how do you know
if you can trust somebody?
What are some of the things youshould be looking for that help
build trust or assess trust?
Barbara Kephart (32:02):
I think the first one is that they wanna
have a conversation with you.
So many will justpoint you to something.
They'll point you to athing that they've created,
or they'll point you to anarticle online, or they'll
point you to a certification.
And if they're willing to have aconversation to understand where
you are and where you're going.
(32:22):
Because I firmly believe thatas many people, as I say, yes,
you're a good project matter.
Yes, you should pursue this.
Yes, you're doing a good job.
I also say, equally, no,actually I don't think this
is a good field for you.
And I think I'm helping themby doing that because I would
hate for them to get a yearor so in, 'cause usually I'm
finding on average it's abouta year or two in and they're
like, Hey, this is too much.
(32:42):
I shouldn't have ever done this.
I should be goinginto someplace else.
I really like sales instead.
Or, I really like onlymarketing instead.
And I think that having thatperson also being really
honest, saying, and I'vehad to do this where I've
had people reach out to meand I'm like, just not sure.
And it's not even the resultsof, let's say, an assessment
that I do with them.
Just having that conversationwith them saying, I'm not sure
if this may be the field fit.
(33:03):
Go ahead and try, but keepan eye on other fields as
well, or things that may havesome of this overlapping.
'cause remember we saidearlier, many positions, many
roles have project managementcomponents, but you're not.
Responsible for somemonstrosity of a project
that you now have to lead.
And so making sure that thepeople that you're talking
to are willing to have aconversation with you, that
(33:24):
there's some give and take,meaning that I'm gonna give you
this information and I'd likeyou to work on this and come
back to me with the result.
So there's some sort of aconversation back and forth.
As well as once you findpeople to talk to, make
sure that it works for you.
You're not only talking tothem, but you might be engaging
in some of the materialthat they've put out there.
Listening to apodcast like this too.
(33:45):
I find that there's many peoplethat I listen to, whether it's
in the project management fieldor even in my business side of
things that I talk to, that Idevelop a relationship with them
by listening to them and knowingthat they're there for me.
That they're not justspitting information out me
and expecting me to absorbit and move on to the next
person, that they really careabout my journey and they
(34:07):
really wanna see me succeed.
Galen Low (34:09):
I like that.
I was, I've been watchingtoo many videos about touring
tests and are you a human?
And I like the sort of notion ofa, are you a trustworthy human?
Let's dialogue.
And that dialogue is what'sgonna help me build that trust.
And, maybe dialoguein certain ways too.
I know there's folks on LinkedInthat I follow that I've never
had a conversation with, Ican see them the way they
(34:29):
interact with folks or theiropenness to different ideas.
I know they're not justoperating in this narrow hallway
and they can't go left or right.
They only know, I only knowthese words about project
management and it's inthis article right here
and ask me anything else.
And I don't know.
But that willingness tobe like, Hey, let's talk.
Or there may be differentperspectives, or I might tell
(34:50):
you something that you won'twanna hear, but it's the
brutal truth that you need tohear are some of those things
where you're like, aha, okay.
All right.
This isn't just, yes, you'regonna be a great project
manager by my book, but it'smaybe you won't be, have you
considered this and let's chat.
I really like that.
For folks who are listeningwho like want to pivot into
project management, they're likeconsidering maybe they're not
(35:11):
early in their career either.
Maybe they're mid careerheck late career, and
they're like, you know what?
Project managementsounds something that.
Really interesting about, it'salways been appealing to me.
What's the first stepthat someone should take
if they want to pivotinto project management?
Barbara Kephart (35:25):
Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people are
trying to pivot into projectmanagement right now because
the statistics show, I justread an article actually
in the fall that said, by2030, the global economy
is going to need 25 millionnew project professionals.
That was a big number.
I don't know wherethey got their number.
I didn't dive too muchinto where they got that
from, although it feelsright because we have had
(35:47):
this big tech boom, right?
Not only in the more recentpast, but just over this
past year with all of thesemachine learning, all of these
tools that are out there,and that's making from more
and more complex projects.
And so the one thing I wouldtell people is that don't
just go into it becauseyou're like, oh, there's jobs
that are gonna be available.
Really do your research.
Decide if this is reallywhat you're gonna do.
(36:08):
Are you going to be adedicated project manager,
is what I like to call them.
Or you're gonna be somebodywho stays in your same field
but is going to try and managemore projects as part of
your role that you're doing.
Or you're going to be somebodywho is going to explore
the project management.
Maybe not go all in right away,but going, so don't just jump
in because you think there'sgonna be all these opportunities
(36:28):
and you know the money's goodand whatever it might be.
Really decide if this is whataspect of project management,
what area of project managementwanna go into all in.
Many of us, that'swhat we like doing.
But there might be thatpartially in or doing it as
part of your main job role,taking on those projects within
a company saying, Hey, by theway, this is a real project I
don't mind doing as part of myday job, but this is a project
(36:50):
I wanna achieve as a project.
So let's say 20% of my time.
A day is going to be managingthis project, so assess that.
I know when I left healthcare,I went in and I was an
analyst for 50% of the day.
I was a systems analyst,and the other 50% of the
day I was managing projects.
And I had to really understandwhen I was in analyst mode
and when I was in PM mode.
So making sure thatthey're really looking as
(37:11):
you're pivoting and reallyassessing all of it because
it's not for everyone.
The people though that Excelas being, let's go with the
dedicated project manager.
Those are the onesthat love the details.
We are just the onesthat love those details.
We love scheduling.
We love tight timelines.
We love putting things togetherand getting those dependencies.
And we also loveplanning 10 steps ahead.
(37:33):
Now, that's an easy one.
Those ones, if you know thatwhen you're planning just a
trip to the grocery store andyou're thinking of 10 steps
ahead of all the things thatyou're gonna drive by as you're
going to the grocery store.
Oh, I can do that errand.
I can get that errand, andthen I have to be back in
time for this because this isgonna be happening back home.
Those are also, that's a trait,so paying attention to that.
Also, the ability to thinkcritically, which once
(37:53):
again could be a wholeother podcast topic, is
how to think critically.
Also, the troubleshooter, thoseare the ones that when something
goes bad, those are, lemmesee if we can figure this out.
Whether it's tech or not,or something's broken.
You know how youeven figure it out.
And then more and morerelevant nowadays, are
you digitally literate?
Even if you're managingprojects, a construction
project, for example, andthat's your background.
(38:14):
You're gonna have to bedigitally literate nowadays.
So paying attention to those.
And then also the ability towant to work through bigger
projects, bigger problems,more complex problems, and
knowing that is a trait forthe dedicated project manager.
And if those are thingsthat are not for you.
Then you might wanna thinkof kind of those other
two buckets, which is, orthree buckets I should say.
(38:35):
One of which thisisn't your field.
The other two is maybe I manage20% of my time is managing
projects, or I explore it.
So those are the tipsthat I would give.
If you know you're inthe, yes, this is it,
this is the direction.
I'm like, I know I can handlebigger and bigger projects,
then that fits into thededicated project manager.
Galen Low (38:53):
I like that knowing what options are available.
When you like come outtahigh school or at least my,
my, when I was coming outtahigh school, you know there's
four jobs you can do, he hadlike career personal planning
and it's okay, maybe there's18 jobs that you can do.
And then you get out intothe world and you're like,
oh my gosh, there's likehundreds of job titles that
no one ever told me about.
And when I read thedescriptions, I'm like,
actually, this uses likea lot of what I can do and
(39:15):
maybe some things that Ican't, but I didn't know
it was a possibility.
Then for the like areas whereyou're like, yeah, okay, I
kind of plan ahead, but I couldprobably get better at it.
How can someone like levelthemselves up to a point where
they feel comfortable pursuingproject management roles as
a dedicated project manager?
How can they lift themselvesup, level up, skill up if
they don't feel like they'redigital, like digitally
(39:36):
savvy, if they don't feel likethey are great planners, if
they don't think that theyare great at communicating,
where do they go from there?
Barbara Kephart (39:43):
Learn.
This is where you go in and youjust learn as much as you can.
Some of it might be attendingwebinars or anything
that's out there abouthow to get better at it.
Many of the tools that areopen there, many of the project
management tools offer greatwebinars, in my opinion,
on specific generic things.
Yeah, of course.
They're always pushingtheir own tool.
But they have greatwebinars out there.
Digital ProjectManager, for example.
(40:04):
You have excellent learningsand that you can take out there.
You have a certificated program.
That's excellent.
I've gone through it,companies like myself,
where we're starting to getinto that e-learning space
and starting to do smallercourses and smaller little
offerings to forgive people.
And then the other one thatI always push is also the
informational interviews.
I have this in our Geta PM job offering on
projects practice.com.
(40:25):
It's gonna be releasedsoon where an informational
interview I had huge, andI still do them actually.
When I'm looking at an areathat I've never managed,
so for instance, I've nevermanaged environmental or
climate action projects.
I've done them as volunteers,but I've never actually
worked for a company, andthat's an area I'm like,
this would be really cool.
I'm starting to haveinformational interviews,
which are very short, 15 to20 minutes long where you sit
(40:46):
down with someone and say, Hey,can I ask you how this works?
How do you manageprojects in this area?
They may be a projectmanager or not.
They may be a subjectmatter expert.
It's me.
How does this work?
And with an informationalinterview, you have to be
very cognizant of their timebecause you know you're asking
them for free advice, havequestions in advance, preferably
only about three or four, andget information from them.
(41:07):
Find out how this works,what makes it tick, and then
that'll give you informationof, is this an area of project
management I wanna do, orin fact, is this even a type
of project that I even wannamanage because this may not
be an area that fits for me.
Talking with people,seeing we're being, trying
informational interviews,seeing the resources out there.
(41:28):
Some are free, some ofyou do have to pay for.
Some of them are subscriptions,some of them are.
You do a paper offer, butreally assess if you're
a good project manager.
You could even spreadsheetit, write it all down and
start getting information.
But be cautious.
You may overwhelm yourself.
You may have so muchinformation coming at you
that you may be like, I don'tknow what to search through.
(41:48):
I'm not sure exactly whatI've, so being cautious
of first finding, youmentioned it earlier, that
authentic source that youfeel like you resonate with.
You mentioned there's somethat you listen to that you
really can resonate with andstarting with them and then
branching out from there.
Galen Low (42:03):
That get a PM job of course.
Sounds super interesting.
I will definitely linkit in the show notes.
I know it's not availablequite yet, but I'll make
sure that folks can learnabout it after they listen.
Barbara Kephart (42:12):
Great, thanks.
Galen Low (42:14):
I had this big old question about the future of
project management, but thatone feels like it might be its
own podcast, so maybe I thoughtmaybe we, let's leave it there.
Barbara Kephart (42:23):
I think it might be its own, because
actually I think people arefeeling very frustrated right
now, and this is, March of 20,25, people are feeling very
frustrated with everythinggoing on and like project
managers even need to be around.
And I think it mightbe its own topic.
Where you could even drawfrom different folks to hear
what they think the futureis because there's so much
(42:44):
that's moving right now.
I personally feel it's more andmore relevant as ever before.
In fact, I think it'sthe most relevant it's
probably ever been.
However we have to understand.
There's variations in that.
And does that mean, like Isaid earlier, it may not be
the title of Project manager?
Galen Low (43:01):
Okay.
Yeah, that's juicy and Ithink we've touched on it
throughout this conversationand I definitely would love to
have you back to talk about,yeah, what project manager
roles or project managementroles look like in the future.
Folks listening, goingwon't there just be AI
project managers, likestarting next year?
We can dive into all of that.
I think the panelidea is fantastic.
Barbara Kephart (43:20):
Yeah, I think it'd be great because we're also
seeing, the other thing, andjust to finish on that thought,
is that we're also seeing fieldsthat have been historically non
PME, so last project orientedindustries who are now starting
to embrace project managementmight be on a smaller scale
than let's say the IT fieldor those types of fields.
(43:41):
However, that's the other thingwe're seeing, and so where do
we fit in that to be determined.
Galen Low (43:46):
Interesting.
Interesting.
We will tackle that next time.
Barb, thank you so much forspending the time with me today.
I always have lots offun chatting with you.
Barbara K (43:53):
Thanks for having me.
That was great.
Galen Low (43:56):
Alright folks, there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
You've read through that “how to become a project
(00:02):
manager” article 15 timesnow, and now you are sure;
you are absolutely sure thatthere were almost certainly
far too many consonants andnot enough vowels throughout.
But somehow you're no closerto understanding how to pivot
into project management.
PMP, CAPM, RACI,Gantt, Monte Carlo...
Is this the first test toweed out the weak-willed
(00:24):
from entering the field?
If you've been interestedin pivoting your career into
project management — but youhaven't managed to get a clear
answer out of Google, ChatGPT,or Perplexity, keep listening.
We're gonna be doing apractical-tactical, no-nonsense
exploration of what it reallytakes to figure out if pivoting
into project management isthe right decision for you.
(00:48):
Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
My name is Galen Low withthe Digital Project Manager.
We are a community of digitalprofessionals on a mission
to help each other getskilled, get confident, and
get connected so that we canamplify the value of project
management in a digital world.
If you want to hear moreabout that, head on over
to thedpm.com/membership.
And if you're intofuture-forward conversations
and practical insights arounddigital project leadership,
(01:11):
consider subscribing to theshow for weekly episodes.
Okay, today we're talking abouthow to make the pivot into
project management and therole that community can play
in decoding the rather opaqueacronyms, and the vague skill
requirements, and the misleadingrole descriptions that all too
often prevent professionalsfrom pursuing a rewarding
(01:31):
career in leading projects.
With me today is BarbaraKephart, the founder and Chief
Project Officer at ProjectsPivot — which offers a unique
blend of dedicated projectmanagers, strategic project
portfolio guidance and practicalPM training, creating a perfect
formula for successful projects.
Barb is also my partner in crimeleading things at our community
(01:52):
for new and aspiring projectmanagers, The PM Coffee Spot.
Barb, thanks forjoining me today.
Barbara Kephart (01:56):
Thanks, Galen.
It's always goodhanging out with you.
Galen Low (01:59):
I know this is like a regular hangout,
but we get to record itand share it with folks.
It's funny because I'm toldthat like my intro is like my
radio voice and then I like theepisode starts and I'm like,
we, so this is one of those.
Barbara Kephart (02:10):
You just go a regular day one?
Galen Low (02:11):
Yeah.
If you're new to the show,I record my intro every time
and sometimes I have coolfriends on the show like Barb.
Barbara Kephart (02:19):
I don't have a radio voice,
so I'm quite jealous.
Galen Low (02:23):
I don't know.
With great power comesgreat responsibility.
You know how it goes.
You and I, we go way back.
We each have been helping peopleget into project management,
succeed at project management,learn project management,
just navigate a careeraround project management.
And we know it's hard for folks.
There's lots of folks tryingto learn about it, trying
to figure it out, trying tosee if it's for them without
(02:46):
wasting too much time.
I thought maybe I'd juststart with a question that
everyone wants to know theanswer to, which is, why is
project management such ahard career to get into and
what's the biggest myth ormisconception that you see
preventing people from gettingstarted in project management?
Barbara Kephart (02:59):
Yeah.
Such a great way tostart project management.
I think we make it harder thanwe can be because those of us
who love project manager, wetry to make a lot of things
harder than what it should be.
And even when we manageproject, we sometimes make it
harder than what it could be.
I think that in that wedon't always sell ourselves
as best as we could.
I've been calling myselfthe geeky PM lately.
(03:21):
They can solve allcompany's problems without
being annoying or pushy.
I remember somebody tellingme once that we don't do
pushy PMs in this company,and I thought, the geeky
PM meaning that we love thedetails, we love getting in
there and not everybody does.
And actually that's a reliefto companies to hear that.
So feel free interview toborrow the geeky p wording.
(03:42):
Because I think that's whatpeople want, and I think once
they hear that, it's not as hardto get in there because there's
many of us who are tryingto sell ourselves as getting
into project management roles.
But it's hard for those on thereceiving end to know who can
actually do it and who can't.
I think those are thethings that people really
have to understand.
And then to that point,I think we also make it
(04:04):
harder on ourselves becausewe're stuck on job titles.
We think that there needs tobe the word project in a job
title when we're applying forit, where we're thinking of
advancing within our currentorganization that we work at.
Many project management rolesout there nowadays, I shouldn't
say project management roles.
Many positions that are outthere nowadays have project
management pieces built in,such as team lead or a program
(04:27):
manager or an implementationmanager, analyst workflow lead.
Recently I came across aworkflow lead that I was working
with somebody on, and it wasactually, she was working in an
accounting firm at my accountingoffice, and I was like, you
are managing projects, but youcall yourself a workflow lead.
I thought that was really good.
And then the best one too,if you are really having a
tough time getting in thereto this field, is thinking
(04:48):
about the admin role.
Admin roles are just filled withproject management in there,
and once you get into an admin,you can make your way through
the organization to get furtherand further advancing in there.
And then sometimes theyalso, these positions
fall in your lap.
You might be the one that'sdoing the projects within a
company, but you have nothingrelated to that in anything
that you're doing anywhere else.
(05:09):
But you've identified thatthere's a project because.
Looking at it from a differentview sometimes can help make
it easier for you to be ableto get into those positions.
Galen Low (05:20):
I love that.
Barbara Kephart (05:21):
Yeah.
The next is just what youwere talking about, the
myth or misconception.
So that one is also thatpeople think they don't
have enough experience.
And I know you and I havetalked about this a lot
before, that people don'tthink they have enough
experience managing projects.
Many of us who love doing this.
We've been doing it a long time.
We're the ones who areplanning the birthday parties.
We've talked about this.
(05:41):
What is the first projectyou've ever planned?
Many people, it's somethingwith their kids or their family.
I know that while I wasstill wet, I wasn't even
a project manager yet.
I had a regular nine tofive or plus a job as
a healthcare provider.
'cause I was also on call andI was on maternity leave with
my second daughter and I wasvolunteering at her preschool.
And within a week or so,because I was feeling better
(06:02):
and I wasn't ready to goback to work yet, I had
organized their art closet.
I had created all new processesfor all the kids, for every time
on how to organize everything.
But these are projectsso people think that they
don't have enough experienceand they wouldn't know
how to manage a project.
Once you're in there andyou have that aptitude to
be a good project manager,it comes naturally.
(06:22):
A lot of this we, I've talkedabout recently too with my
colleague Laura Hartner,where we've been working on,
because there are people thatnot only are project managers
like you and I, which I'msure we'll be talking about
mentoring at some point.
'cause you and I always getinto the conversation around
mentoring when we talk.
But there are career transitionspecialists like Laura out
there who can not only helpyou pivot in a way that
(06:44):
we as project managers cando, but also can help you.
Put all that down so thatpeople on the receiving end
of it, against all the othernoise can help understand it.
And I know she and I havecreated a couple of little
e-learning or offeringsthat we call learning
offerings that we call.
Get a PM job aroundwriting your PM resume
and AC your PM interview.
(07:05):
So those are my highlevel thoughts on
whether it's hard or not.
Galen Low (07:09):
Are those courses available now?
Barbara Kephart (07:11):
Yeah, I'm just working on
getting them out there.
Our learning management systemis called projectspractice.com.
Galen Low (07:16):
Gosh, okay.
There's so much there thatI want to dive into because
actually I think the othersort of misconception you
touched on first, which isthat the bossy PM is a PM.
And a lot of people, you'reright, I don't think a lot
of people have looked atit as the geeky PM, right?
The person gets into the weedsand deals with complexity,
but like it's a joy in away to unravel the yarn.
I definitely have seen peoplewho are like, oh, I'm bossy.
(07:40):
I'm gonna be a great PM.
And then I've seen peoplesay, oh, I'm not bossy.
I probably won't be a good PM.
And frankly, the person who isnot bossy often I use the word
bossy, like loosely, but likeperson who's yeah, I don't know
if I really feel comfortablelike telling people what to do.
I've got a bit ofimposter syndrome.
I have to learn stuffthat I don't know.
Might actually be a betterfit than somebody who's yeah,
(08:01):
I'm just gonna go in and tellpeople what to do and then sit
on my laurels, put my feet up,and then whenever something
goes wrong, I'm gonna throw'em under the bus actually
end up being the worst PMs andoften other people who decide
to pursue it and then realizeit's really not for them.
They're like, oh wait, what'sthis servant leadership?
No.
I didn't sign up for that.
I think that'slike a big barrier.
And then the experiencething, I just think, yeah,
(08:22):
it's been a thing forgosh, I did my PMP in 2014.
I've been into projectmanagement for gosh, 15 years
or more, and 15 years ago,probably even before that.
That was the big thing, waslike, oh, I don't know if
I have enough experience.
What is a project andhow can I talk about it?
If it wasn't my job title, canI still put it on my resume?
(08:43):
Can I still talk aboutit in an interview?
And that's been going onfor decades and decades.
Barbara Kephart (08:47):
Yeah.
Let's talk about the, whetheryou need a PMP or not right
away, because I actuallygot mine later than you.
I got mine in 2016.
However, I had been managingprojects for 25 years
prior to that as part ofmy direct work that I was
doing, healthcare providerplus working in healthcare.
It, however, it just, Ijust never got to it and I
wasn't working in a directlyin A PMO at that point.
(09:08):
And usually all the projectmanagement office folks
got the PMP and noneof the rest of us did.
So it wasn't really a priorityuntil it became available to
me educational wise to go inand get my actual certificate
in project management,followed by my p and p. And I
think that there's also thisbelief that we need to have a
certification after our name,before we can get the job.
(09:31):
And I think that belief isbeing fed by the fact that
many positions out theresay they require a PMP.
So back to what I was sayingearlier is sometimes you
might be focusing so muchon the project management.
Job role or the projectmanager job role and forgetting
that a lot of these otherjobs, you can still do your
geeky project management ina different role that isn't
(09:52):
called project manager.
Maybe later you met mightget the project manager role.
For years, I didn't havea project manager role.
I wanted it.
But that would've meant Iwould've had to go into the
project management office,and that means my director
and myself wouldn't beable to manage the projects
in the way that we wereknowing that they were.
We were doing a reallygood job at doing it.
Because we would've hadlimitations, which are fine
limitations to have as part ofa project management office,
(10:14):
especially enterprise wide.
And then going back to what yousaid about the bossy PM Yes.
Bossy PMs, a lot of timesthey're very good at getting in.
They're very good atgetting in the door.
But be careful of thatbecause I think there's an
awareness now of the bossy PM.
Yes, bossy PM when you interviewand when you're going in, or
(10:34):
when you're switching roleswithin your organization can be
great because you're assertive.
You're showing yourstuff, you're doing it.
However, bossy PMs don'twork when the project
is going sideways.
In fact it couldn't ruffle morefeathers than if you're more
of the middle of the ground PMwhere you bossy when you need to
be and calm when you need to be.
(10:57):
And a combination.
Everything in life is aboutbalance and really having the
ability to know when to stayquiet and know when to speak
up is a huge asset that aproject manager needs to have.
Galen Low (11:08):
I love that about balance.
You also do a bit of anassessment with some of
the folks who come throughyour mentorship program.
I think you call it aseatbelt session and I
think it's 'cause buckle up.
We're gonna tell you somethingthat you might not want to hear.
No.
But it's about have you gotthat balance and could project
management be right for you?
Have I gotten it right?
Barbara Kephart (11:27):
Yeah.
So we have two things.
We have a, something called aseatbelt session, and that's
what we do with our companiesthat we work with and that's
working with the leadershipplus the project managers that
they have managing the projects,whether it's their own internal
project managers or we bringthem in a fractional basis
out of our organization in.
And that's where we assessabout what are you doing,
how have you been doing it?
How have you been usingproject management techniques.
(11:48):
So it's that setting thebaseline for the project.
And we call that a seatbeltsession for our folks that
are coming in that we don'tknow or we're working with
them within the company.
We call that our projectmanagement knowledge
gap assessment.
And that's where we assessand eventually we are
gonna be getting that upon projects practice.com.
We're gonna do like a miniversion of it for people
to try out themselves.
And this is where weassess people's aptitude
(12:11):
for project management.
And I like the wordaptitude because just like
I have curly blonde hair.
That's how we cameinto this world.
And I believe that's howproject managers come into
this world is that we come inwith certain characteristics
that make us who we are.
I think this is the thingthat when you look at these
(12:32):
types of assessments, and infact our project management
institute, our governingbody does versions of this
assessment when they test us.
Galen Low (12:38):
Ah, yeah.
Barbara Kephart (12:40):
That's why sometimes people pass right
away because it logicallymakes sense to them, and then
other people might struggle.
And I'm not saying that'sthe only reason, there's
other reasons involved, butthe things I know before,
I don't know about you, butwhen I took mine, they had
just started switching it tomore logic-based questions.
Project managers are verylogical, and this is something
(13:00):
we have from the time we're veryyoung and these are the traits
that we carry and the abilityto critically think, the ability
to look ahead, the ability to beable to plan things in advance.
Many people, they just havetrouble for whatever reason
it is, whether they're bornthat way, life circumstances
have led them that way.
They really can only thinkto the next task, and
(13:22):
even that's a struggle.
Which is not a good projectmanagement trait to have.
Galen Low (13:26):
Is it learnable though?
We're talking about, beingborn with curly blonde hair
and folks who are listening,who are going, oh, I'd love
to be a project manager.
I think I'd be great.
Am I logical?
Yeah.
I don't know.
I. I don't know if I'm logical.
I guess maybe.
Maybe I can't do this.
Can some of thesethings be taught?
Can I learn to havecurly blonde hair?
Barbara Kephart (13:44):
I believe so.
You can get a permand you can dye it.
Yes, I believe so.
I'll say that with a littlebit of a caveat because I
believe, yes, you can learnit however we all know it.
When those projects get bigand messy and off the wall
where you're like, oh my gosh.
There are many people thatI have seen that have done
excellent up to that point.
(14:06):
As soon as the chaos creeps in,they freeze for whatever reason.
That's a whole different levelof learning and some people
may not be able to ever learnthat because they prefer order.
Another trade ofproject managers is we
like things in order.
So there's a two part on thatis not only do we like to
have things in order and we'revery good at keeping things
in order and we can be taughthow to keep things in order.
You hear the classic personwho is a, a pack rat and then
(14:28):
in time they are like, oh, Ireally like having my house
organized now and I'm gonnastart cleaning things up and
it keeps order in their life.
That said, we also have tobe very flexible that when
things get messy quick, wealso have to have that ability.
I'm not sure if that lastability is learnable.
Galen Low (14:45):
That's fair.
That's actuallyinteresting actually.
I really love that framingthough, because it's I do
think a lot of folks, they'replanning their career.
They're like, yeah, ona fair weather day when
things are going well, Icould totally do that job.
Whereas actually the rightmindset might be like, could
I do this job when everythingis crashing around me?
And that might be true ofany job, not just project
management, but it's like,what about a bad day?
(15:05):
Could I handle a bad day whenthings are not going my way?
Do I have the aptitude to managethat, whether that's stress
management or staying organizedand calm under pressure, or
using assertiveness as a tool.
Not necessarily makingit the core part of your
character, but you can pullit out when you need it.
I like that framing of just likeproject management on a bad day.
They're hard days.
Barbara Kephart (15:26):
I encourage people to think about that.
When things go bad in your life,when you're having that bad
day or that bad week or a badyear, really go back to that
and say, how did I get throughthat and how well did I do it?
Now, remember, it's goingto get better the more bad
years you have, meaning thatyou're gonna learn more and
more techniques out of that.
So the more bad days, themore bad months, the more
(15:48):
bad years you're gonna getsome learning out of that's
going to help you handle more.
So that's where maybe I'llgo back on what I just said,
that it's not learnable.
Maybe it is depending on howmuch bad you've had, right?
Yes.
I know myself, I like tosay I grew up in a chaotic
Irish Italian family and Ihad to learn how to manage
them, and I found that wasactually doable for me.
(16:10):
I also went into thehealthcare space where I
was having to be on callin the middle of the night.
And so I would be wokenup just like any on-call
professional and have tofunction very quickly in
an emergency situation withpatients in the emergency room.
And so those skills helpedme that when a project goes
sideways, quickly, to be ableto go oh, and I even have
(16:30):
some techniques that I'vebrought from my healthcare
experience that I now use withmy businesses and companies
and folks that I train to say,okay, this is how we're gonna
start sorting through it.
So I am gonna go back on whatI said, that it's not learnable
or perhaps it's not learnableand say, yes, it's learnable
if you're willing to learn it.
Galen Low (16:46):
Fair.
And also, I think the thing thatreally resonated with me earlier
is you said like aptitude,maybe it is core in some way.
There's certain things thatyou may be born with, but
it's a balance and almost likeadjusting that balance of the
aptitudes or the qualities orthe traits that you have to fit
into that puzzle piece of, yes,my project's going sideways, or,
(17:08):
yes, there's chaos around me.
I think that's the thingthat unlocks it, and then
paying attention to it.
Learning how to use thataptitude, whatever it may be.
It's not cookie cutter,but how can you find that
balance of your traits?
To tackle this problem and thenget better and better at it.
And I think that's what Iwas taking from what you were
saying is like the learningbit is not learning to
change your stripes, right?
(17:29):
As a zebra.
The learning bit is tounderstand what that balance
of your traits is to helpyou succeed at this role.
And then leaning into thatand going, okay, how can I get
more comfortable with this?
How can I refine and optimizemy approach to these things?
Which is to say thatlike I'm not someone who
naturally, like I'm not thebirthday party planner, do
not let me plan a birthday.
I am not that person on paper.
(17:50):
I'm actually quite a, I'dprobably be a very bad project
manager, but there is somethingthat honestly took a lot
of work, was not natural.
Took a lot of work to getinto and yeah, I do think
that framing is useful.
It's not necessarily, no, youcan't be a project manager.
You don't have these things,but it might be more work
for some than others.
Barbara Kephart (18:11):
I really like that.
I love the way you explain thatbecause it's the reframing of
it and the ones that I find thattheir longevity within the field
is questionable are the onesthat when things get messy, they
literally, and no joke, hidebehind their computer screen.
They sit in meetings and itseems like their laptop lid
(18:32):
is being covered over theirhead because their head is so
far down, and instead, this iswhen our head needs to be up.
And it's okay to do thatonce or twice maybe.
However, we really need to seethat growth, that learning,
that expansion of, okay,we've had this project going.
Things are going really well.
Something could go wrong.
Remember whole other discussion.
(18:53):
We talk about risk managementcreating, this is a whole part.
Could, we could turn thewhole podcast into risk
around this one particular.
Topic, but identifying whatcould potentially happen, being
prepared for it, and if andwhen it happens, being ready
for it, which means gettingaway from your computer and
starting to talk to thosepeople, to your stakeholders,
(19:14):
figuring out what's goingon, which can be very
uncomfortable for some people.
That communication, get 'emgetting right up in front of
people saying What happened?
Those are all the things.
So yes, there's a learningand evolving that happens
as you're going through thisprocess of understanding how
projects work with a wholebunch of very complex people.
Galen Low (19:34):
You know what's really interesting?
Building on that, but actuallycoming back to something you
said earlier, which is likesome of the best quote unquote
training you had for projectmanagement was like your family
or working in medicine andlike being in an OR, or like
being someone who's on calland having the resilience to
deal with stressful situationsand then going back further
where you're like folks whodon't have quote unquote
(19:55):
project management experience.
There's a way to framesome of these things
that we're talking about.
We are low key, giving amasterclass on how to frame
your value and understandhow you'll drive value as a
project manager, if that'ssomething you're interested in.
Whether or not you've had thattitle before, whether or not
you have a PMP, whether or notyou've been doing project work
even there are these sort oftraits and qualities that are
(20:17):
very valuable in the projectmanager role that you can
acquire and probably alreadyhave even if you haven't been
a project manager before.
Barbara Kephart (20:26):
In drawing on those experiences, you and
I talked to somebody on our,which I will be talking about
I'm sure PM Coffee spot, wherehe was mentioning his family
upbringing caused him to.
Really and the issues that hedealt with within his family.
We've also talked to othersthat have had very difficult
journeys moving countries,and many of the international
(20:46):
students I teach you havea project just getting
here into this classroom.
You went through an entireprocess to leave your country.
That's whole, a wholepiece in itself.
But also enrolling in a programin a different country and in
particular project managementprogram like that is a project.
Those pieces you can drawon when you're talking with
people about you being veryeffective at this role because
(21:09):
you've overcome adversity.
And that's what we do inprojects is we overcome a lot
of obstacles and hurdles thatget in our way, and that's what
makes us good at what we do.
Galen Low (21:19):
I'm totally that guy as well.
As a hiring manager, I'mlike, I'm trying to figure
out what that candidate.
Looks like when they're havingthat bad day with a tough day,
when things are going wrong andhow they deal with a problem.
And we're trained to go ininto an interview and be like,
oh, my projects are perfect.
Yeah.
On scope, on time, on budget.
Yeah.
That's me.
And you're like no.
That might havebeen the outcome.
Tell me how younavigated the adversity.
(21:40):
And I think anyone who has astory about solving a problem
under stress can tell a reallygood story in an interview
for a project manager role.
You mentioned PM Coffee Spot.
I wanna dive in there andmaybe just zoom out a little
because at some point last yearyou came to me with an idea
to set up a community for newand aspiring project managers.
Coming from any industry andany background, we ended up
(22:03):
calling it the PM Coffee Spot.
Can you tell us what the PMCoffee Spot is and what it
means for you, and why is itso important for you to invest
your time and energy into?
Barbara Kephart (22:12):
And I came to you as part of the digital
project manager because DPMis so incredibly beautifully
focused on the digital PMs.
Yet I work with people acrossall industries, and I knew
that whether you're a digitalproject manager or a healthcare
project manager, a technicalproject manager, you know
any of those, there's stillthe same need where you have
questions to ask and you're notreally sure where to ask them.
(22:35):
You need some resources thatyou know are not only easy to
read, but are reliable becausethere's so much out there that.
When I search somethingor I ChatGPT it, I'm like,
eh, it's not quite right.
But because I've been doing ita while I know that we also,
the common thing that I get fromfolks is they want a place to
network and they wanna placethe network that's safe outside
of the social medias thatare out there right now that.
(22:58):
They're not really surewhere their information goes.
They don't want theiremployer finding it.
And then of course, all ofthose fits into those who
are either just starting outor interested in getting a
career in project management.
And so the concept of a forum,which is something that's been
reentered back into our world.
And yeah, like early daysof project, early days, the
internet forums were so popularand they reentered back in.
(23:20):
And so creating a forum that'sa safe place, it's someplace
that they can explore.
I think that was justreally fitting and.
I had a version of this whenI first started, specifically
in project management, notnecessarily as a healthcare
provider, but I had it inthe form of a couple mentors.
I could talk with them, Icould discuss with them.
We kinda had our ownlittle mini forum and I
(23:40):
thought we're global now.
This was back in person dayswhere you actually had to debate
the office every single day.
And so I wanted to build tocreate a place that people
felt safe, that they couldshare their information and
have those mentors available.
So we've created something.
Over time, it's evolving.
Still speaking, evolution seemsto be the term of the topic
(24:00):
of this podcast right now.
It's evolving over time, butwe are bringing a place where
it's a whole bunch of mentorsthat you and I are finding.
It's not just you or I, we'refinding all these various
mentors from all differentlevels of experience, some just
early stages themselves, butthey've really accomplished
something, others reallylate stage and we're building
a community around that.
And I think that's the keyin this is it's a, I think we
(24:23):
use the word landing place,the safe landing place for
people to go and just say, Iwanna ask this dumb question.
And I think this is a placeI can ask that dumb question.
Yes.
It's, I asked a lot ofdumb questions when I first
started do, and actuallythis is so something we do.
Galen Low (24:39):
That's a skill.
I love what you're sayingabout that in terms of
conversations with mentors andthe world's a big place now.
And yes, honestly, I'vebeen really impressed
with generative ai.
I think, ChatGPT, perplexity,Gemini, you name it, all
of those things are quiteincredible tools in terms
(25:00):
of gathering knowledge.
And yet when you said that, Iwas like, yeah, it's something
that's not quite the same ashaving a mentor to talk to.
At least for me it's not, Iknow there might be some folks
who are like, no, whatever.
I put it on chat mode.
It sits next to me all day.
I chat to it all day.
It is my mentor.
It knows everything on theinternet, but sometimes I just
wanna know something that's noton the internet, but you were
talking about stories, aboutpeople's upbringing and like
(25:22):
big moves, the things that kindof shaped us as humans and has
influenced or provided someinput into how we do our jobs.
It doesn't strike me as likeLLM-able, if that makes sense.
Do you know what I mean?
It's tell me a story of howBarb got off one night on call
as a healthcare practitionerand made it work with a
(25:43):
nuclear medicine background.
It's I don't thinkthey'll know that story.
Maybe if he itsomewhere, I think,
Barbara Kephart (25:48):
yeah, I think it'll find it and it'll try
and extract some those pieces.
But the person's gonna haveanother question because
they're gonna read it andthey're gonna be like what
did you do around this?
And how did you, especiallyin nuclear medicine in
particular, many patientshave very chronic or very
serious diagnoses, right?
Cancer, heart disease.
So they're scared.
(26:09):
And so when you're tryingto get information out of a
stakeholder, and especiallya very sick and scared
stakeholder, none of these toolsare going to help you get that
because they're not human and.
Back to a group of mentors.
First of all, you cannever have enough of them.
And that's what I knowwe're trying to do with
the PM Coffee Spot.
And these mentors, we can'ttalk in these tools yet.
(26:33):
Maybe in the future let's giveus another, maybe they will be
able to create versions of us.
But for right now, the humanexperience that people need
to get themselves throughthe next step of a project
is still with a human.
And those tools, they dohave a tendency to point,
and the advantage to them,as I find is they are sending
leaders more and more tobeing like, maybe we need
(26:55):
to manage this as a project.
Dah.
We've known that for a longtime, that we need to use
project management techniques.
So a lot of the answers they'regiving, and that's good because
that is people like us who arefeeding them that information.
So I think that's reallygood, which will help
increase our field and,improve our field with the
recognition that we need.
But back to whether that toolcan give you that answer of
what did you do in the middleof the night when you couldn't
(27:17):
get information out of a verysick patient for whatever
reason, or what did you do?
When you were about todo a go live on a Monday
morning at 7 (27:25):
00 AM and you found out Sunday night that
your major stakeholder wasunreachable, one of your key
stakeholders was unreachable.
I don't know if AI yet or any ofthose tools, a Google search is
going to give you that answer.
They're gonna give you genericanswers, but a real life
person is gonna say, oh yeahwhen that happened to me, and
(27:46):
then if I don't know, if ithasn't happened to me, I'm
gonna go to my other mentorsor my community and say, Hey,
anybody had this situation?
We have someone needs it.
It's even gonna be quicker thana search, because someone's
gonna say, yes, I got it.
Galen Low (27:59):
It comes back to something you were saying
earlier too, where it's like I'ma firm believer that, especially
in project management, thereisn't usually one right answer.
And I think everyonehas their own style as a
professional, not, not evenjust a project manager.
Everyone has their own style asa professional, and sometimes,
the art is to be able tosynthesize your own truth from
the information you're given.
(28:19):
Not be given one answer and go,okay, that must be the answer.
Off we go.
And I think that's the beauty ofcommunity is that yeah, you're
gonna get a couple differentpeople respond in different
ways and some people will agreeand some people will disagree.
And it's all aboutgoing, okay, that sounds
like it'll work for me.
That's something that I can try.
I'm gonna changethese three things.
'cause like I'm not that personwho's so bold and extroverted
(28:41):
or whatever as that personis, but I'm gonna extract
my truth from it and I'mgoing to let it inform what
I'm going to do in my style.
Not necessarily theone right answer.
And that's like I hadcrafted this LinkedIn post
and I never posted it, butit was like the I'm feeling
lucky button on Google.
I always hated it, not because,I'm sure it does great things
for some searches, but whenI'm looking for, I don't
(29:03):
know, something I'm doingresearch on, I don't want
the first pop ranking answer.
I don't wanna just gothere and be like, that
must be the answer.
I want multiple inputs so that Ican make a decision for myself.
And that's just how I'm wired.
And I think coming back towhat you're saying about like
the learning isn't necessarilychanging your stripes.
And it's not necessarily alljust technical skills, but it's
almost like learning how tolearn how to ask dumb questions,
(29:24):
how to like ingest smartanswers, sometimes dumb answers.
You know what I mean?
And parse that andmake that your own.
And I think as aproject manager, it's
such a great skill.
Talk to a bunch of people.
Figure out what actually mattersand doesn't, where there's
risk, where there's not risk,what's gonna have an impact and
what's not gonna have an impact.
Parsing all that information andthen keeping the boat on course
(29:47):
amidst choppy waters on baddays, on days when you can't get
ahold of that key stakeholder.
That actually is the skill.
Barbara Kephart (29:54):
It is.
And then going back towhat you just said, talk
to trusted people, trustedmentors, trusted stakeholders.
When you search, going backto the, I feel lucky that
information is coming fromeither what Google identifies as
the most accurate information,which is fine, but it's
also coming from a pool ofpeople that you don't know.
And when it comes from apool of people that you
(30:14):
trust and if anybody hasheard me speak before, I'm
all about trust in projects.
That's a huge topic forme because it helps us
build the trust within ourstakeholders and people rely
on you, blah, blah, blah.
Once again, another wholeother podcast topic, however.
When you work from a poolof trusted mentors and a
trusted community, you feelbetter about that information.
(30:35):
Being as accurate as you canto move forward to the next
step may not always work.
You may have to come backand say, oh, didn't work.
Can we try another make?
You're still coming from that.
When you pull it off of a tool,it's great, but it's pulling off
information that's out there inthe world, which may not distill
down tight enough for whatyou need, and you're not sure
if this is trustable or not.
Galen Low (30:55):
I really like that.
Just knowing the authorof the information,
I think is important.
It's important forlearning about project
management or anything.
It's also important in projectmanagement, like on a day-to-day
basis or anything, any job.
Barbara Kephart (31:09):
And the mentors that, that I know that you and
I talk with and work with, andwhen we create community around.
They've not only beenin the weeds, but we've
lost sleepover projects.
We've got ourselves backin the weeds sometimes.
I like to say we managed ourproject into a dark closet
and we can't find our wayout, and we've got our team in
there with us and we're like,ah, we don't know what to do.
Those are the things you may notbe able to find on the internet
(31:30):
or in a ChatGPT tool or any ofthe tools that are out there.
You may not be able to findthat people are a group of
people who have been reallystuck, and I think sometimes
we search because we're stuck.
Sometimes we might be searchingin the wrong places, and
instead we might need todraw from a community or a
person or a group of people.
Galen Low (31:47):
Actually, maybe we can take it there
and put you on the spot.
If you're somebody who'slearning about project
management, you're tryingto pivot in, how do you know
if you can trust somebody?
What are some of the things youshould be looking for that help
build trust or assess trust?
Barbara Kephart (32:02):
I think the first one is that they wanna
have a conversation with you.
So many will justpoint you to something.
They'll point you to athing that they've created,
or they'll point you to anarticle online, or they'll
point you to a certification.
And if they're willing to have aconversation to understand where
you are and where you're going.
(32:22):
Because I firmly believe thatas many people, as I say, yes,
you're a good project matter.
Yes, you should pursue this.
Yes, you're doing a good job.
I also say, equally, no,actually I don't think this
is a good field for you.
And I think I'm helping themby doing that because I would
hate for them to get a yearor so in, 'cause usually I'm
finding on average it's abouta year or two in and they're
like, Hey, this is too much.
(32:42):
I shouldn't have ever done this.
I should be goinginto someplace else.
I really like sales instead.
Or, I really like onlymarketing instead.
And I think that having thatperson also being really
honest, saying, and I'vehad to do this where I've
had people reach out to meand I'm like, just not sure.
And it's not even the resultsof, let's say, an assessment
that I do with them.
Just having that conversationwith them saying, I'm not sure
if this may be the field fit.
(33:03):
Go ahead and try, but keepan eye on other fields as
well, or things that may havesome of this overlapping.
'cause remember we saidearlier, many positions, many
roles have project managementcomponents, but you're not.
Responsible for somemonstrosity of a project
that you now have to lead.
And so making sure that thepeople that you're talking
to are willing to have aconversation with you, that
(33:24):
there's some give and take,meaning that I'm gonna give you
this information and I'd likeyou to work on this and come
back to me with the result.
So there's some sort of aconversation back and forth.
As well as once you findpeople to talk to, make
sure that it works for you.
You're not only talking tothem, but you might be engaging
in some of the materialthat they've put out there.
Listening to apodcast like this too.
(33:45):
I find that there's many peoplethat I listen to, whether it's
in the project management fieldor even in my business side of
things that I talk to, that Idevelop a relationship with them
by listening to them and knowingthat they're there for me.
That they're not justspitting information out me
and expecting me to absorbit and move on to the next
person, that they really careabout my journey and they
(34:07):
really wanna see me succeed.
Galen Low (34:09):
I like that.
I was, I've been watchingtoo many videos about touring
tests and are you a human?
And I like the sort of notion ofa, are you a trustworthy human?
Let's dialogue.
And that dialogue is what'sgonna help me build that trust.
And, maybe dialoguein certain ways too.
I know there's folks on LinkedInthat I follow that I've never
had a conversation with, Ican see them the way they
(34:29):
interact with folks or theiropenness to different ideas.
I know they're not justoperating in this narrow hallway
and they can't go left or right.
They only know, I only knowthese words about project
management and it's inthis article right here
and ask me anything else.
And I don't know.
But that willingness tobe like, Hey, let's talk.
Or there may be differentperspectives, or I might tell
(34:50):
you something that you won'twanna hear, but it's the
brutal truth that you need tohear are some of those things
where you're like, aha, okay.
All right.
This isn't just, yes, you'regonna be a great project
manager by my book, but it'smaybe you won't be, have you
considered this and let's chat.
I really like that.
For folks who are listeningwho like want to pivot into
project management, they're likeconsidering maybe they're not
(35:11):
early in their career either.
Maybe they're mid careerheck late career, and
they're like, you know what?
Project managementsounds something that.
Really interesting about, it'salways been appealing to me.
What's the first stepthat someone should take
if they want to pivotinto project management?
Barbara Kephart (35:25):
Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people are
trying to pivot into projectmanagement right now because
the statistics show, I justread an article actually
in the fall that said, by2030, the global economy
is going to need 25 millionnew project professionals.
That was a big number.
I don't know wherethey got their number.
I didn't dive too muchinto where they got that
from, although it feelsright because we have had
(35:47):
this big tech boom, right?
Not only in the more recentpast, but just over this
past year with all of thesemachine learning, all of these
tools that are out there,and that's making from more
and more complex projects.
And so the one thing I wouldtell people is that don't
just go into it becauseyou're like, oh, there's jobs
that are gonna be available.
Really do your research.
Decide if this is reallywhat you're gonna do.
(36:08):
Are you going to be adedicated project manager,
is what I like to call them.
Or you're gonna be somebodywho stays in your same field
but is going to try and managemore projects as part of
your role that you're doing.
Or you're going to be somebodywho is going to explore
the project management.
Maybe not go all in right away,but going, so don't just jump
in because you think there'sgonna be all these opportunities
(36:28):
and you know the money's goodand whatever it might be.
Really decide if this is whataspect of project management,
what area of project managementwanna go into all in.
Many of us, that'swhat we like doing.
But there might be thatpartially in or doing it as
part of your main job role,taking on those projects within
a company saying, Hey, by theway, this is a real project I
don't mind doing as part of myday job, but this is a project
(36:50):
I wanna achieve as a project.
So let's say 20% of my time.
A day is going to be managingthis project, so assess that.
I know when I left healthcare,I went in and I was an
analyst for 50% of the day.
I was a systems analyst,and the other 50% of the
day I was managing projects.
And I had to really understandwhen I was in analyst mode
and when I was in PM mode.
So making sure thatthey're really looking as
(37:11):
you're pivoting and reallyassessing all of it because
it's not for everyone.
The people though that Excelas being, let's go with the
dedicated project manager.
Those are the onesthat love the details.
We are just the onesthat love those details.
We love scheduling.
We love tight timelines.
We love putting things togetherand getting those dependencies.
And we also loveplanning 10 steps ahead.
(37:33):
Now, that's an easy one.
Those ones, if you know thatwhen you're planning just a
trip to the grocery store andyou're thinking of 10 steps
ahead of all the things thatyou're gonna drive by as you're
going to the grocery store.
Oh, I can do that errand.
I can get that errand, andthen I have to be back in
time for this because this isgonna be happening back home.
Those are also, that's a trait,so paying attention to that.
Also, the ability to thinkcritically, which once
(37:53):
again could be a wholeother podcast topic, is
how to think critically.
Also, the troubleshooter, thoseare the ones that when something
goes bad, those are, lemmesee if we can figure this out.
Whether it's tech or not,or something's broken.
You know how youeven figure it out.
And then more and morerelevant nowadays, are
you digitally literate?
Even if you're managingprojects, a construction
project, for example, andthat's your background.
(38:14):
You're gonna have to bedigitally literate nowadays.
So paying attention to those.
And then also the ability towant to work through bigger
projects, bigger problems,more complex problems, and
knowing that is a trait forthe dedicated project manager.
And if those are thingsthat are not for you.
Then you might wanna thinkof kind of those other
two buckets, which is, orthree buckets I should say.
(38:35):
One of which thisisn't your field.
The other two is maybe I manage20% of my time is managing
projects, or I explore it.
So those are the tipsthat I would give.
If you know you're inthe, yes, this is it,
this is the direction.
I'm like, I know I can handlebigger and bigger projects,
then that fits into thededicated project manager.
Galen Low (38:53):
I like that knowing what options are available.
When you like come outtahigh school or at least my,
my, when I was coming outtahigh school, you know there's
four jobs you can do, he hadlike career personal planning
and it's okay, maybe there's18 jobs that you can do.
And then you get out intothe world and you're like,
oh my gosh, there's likehundreds of job titles that
no one ever told me about.
And when I read thedescriptions, I'm like,
actually, this uses likea lot of what I can do and
(39:15):
maybe some things that Ican't, but I didn't know
it was a possibility.
Then for the like areas whereyou're like, yeah, okay, I
kind of plan ahead, but I couldprobably get better at it.
How can someone like levelthemselves up to a point where
they feel comfortable pursuingproject management roles as
a dedicated project manager?
How can they lift themselvesup, level up, skill up if
they don't feel like they'redigital, like digitally
(39:36):
savvy, if they don't feel likethey are great planners, if
they don't think that theyare great at communicating,
where do they go from there?
Barbara Kephart (39:43):
Learn.
This is where you go in and youjust learn as much as you can.
Some of it might be attendingwebinars or anything
that's out there abouthow to get better at it.
Many of the tools that areopen there, many of the project
management tools offer greatwebinars, in my opinion,
on specific generic things.
Yeah, of course.
They're always pushingtheir own tool.
But they have greatwebinars out there.
Digital ProjectManager, for example.
(40:04):
You have excellent learningsand that you can take out there.
You have a certificated program.
That's excellent.
I've gone through it,companies like myself,
where we're starting to getinto that e-learning space
and starting to do smallercourses and smaller little
offerings to forgive people.
And then the other one thatI always push is also the
informational interviews.
I have this in our Geta PM job offering on
projects practice.com.
(40:25):
It's gonna be releasedsoon where an informational
interview I had huge, andI still do them actually.
When I'm looking at an areathat I've never managed,
so for instance, I've nevermanaged environmental or
climate action projects.
I've done them as volunteers,but I've never actually
worked for a company, andthat's an area I'm like,
this would be really cool.
I'm starting to haveinformational interviews,
which are very short, 15 to20 minutes long where you sit
(40:46):
down with someone and say, Hey,can I ask you how this works?
How do you manageprojects in this area?
They may be a projectmanager or not.
They may be a subjectmatter expert.
It's me.
How does this work?
And with an informationalinterview, you have to be
very cognizant of their timebecause you know you're asking
them for free advice, havequestions in advance, preferably
only about three or four, andget information from them.
(41:07):
Find out how this works,what makes it tick, and then
that'll give you informationof, is this an area of project
management I wanna do, orin fact, is this even a type
of project that I even wannamanage because this may not
be an area that fits for me.
Talking with people,seeing we're being, trying
informational interviews,seeing the resources out there.
(41:28):
Some are free, some ofyou do have to pay for.
Some of them are subscriptions,some of them are.
You do a paper offer, butreally assess if you're
a good project manager.
You could even spreadsheetit, write it all down and
start getting information.
But be cautious.
You may overwhelm yourself.
You may have so muchinformation coming at you
that you may be like, I don'tknow what to search through.
(41:48):
I'm not sure exactly whatI've, so being cautious
of first finding, youmentioned it earlier, that
authentic source that youfeel like you resonate with.
You mentioned there's somethat you listen to that you
really can resonate with andstarting with them and then
branching out from there.
Galen Low (42:03):
That get a PM job of course.
Sounds super interesting.
I will definitely linkit in the show notes.
I know it's not availablequite yet, but I'll make
sure that folks can learnabout it after they listen.
Barbara Kephart (42:12):
Great, thanks.
Galen Low (42:14):
I had this big old question about the future of
project management, but thatone feels like it might be its
own podcast, so maybe I thoughtmaybe we, let's leave it there.
Barbara Kephart (42:23):
I think it might be its own, because
actually I think people arefeeling very frustrated right
now, and this is, March of 20,25, people are feeling very
frustrated with everythinggoing on and like project
managers even need to be around.
And I think it mightbe its own topic.
Where you could even drawfrom different folks to hear
what they think the futureis because there's so much
(42:44):
that's moving right now.
I personally feel it's more andmore relevant as ever before.
In fact, I think it'sthe most relevant it's
probably ever been.
However we have to understand.
There's variations in that.
And does that mean, like Isaid earlier, it may not be
the title of Project manager?
Galen Low (43:01):
Okay.
Yeah, that's juicy and Ithink we've touched on it
throughout this conversationand I definitely would love to
have you back to talk about,yeah, what project manager
roles or project managementroles look like in the future.
Folks listening, goingwon't there just be AI
project managers, likestarting next year?
We can dive into all of that.
I think the panelidea is fantastic.
Barbara Kephart (43:20):
Yeah, I think it'd be great because we're also
seeing, the other thing, andjust to finish on that thought,
is that we're also seeing fieldsthat have been historically non
PME, so last project orientedindustries who are now starting
to embrace project managementmight be on a smaller scale
than let's say the IT fieldor those types of fields.
(43:41):
However, that's the other thingwe're seeing, and so where do
we fit in that to be determined.
Galen Low (43:46):
Interesting.
Interesting.
We will tackle that next time.
Barb, thank you so much forspending the time with me today.
I always have lots offun chatting with you.
Barbara K (43:53):
Thanks for having me.
That was great.
Galen Low (43:56):
Alright folks, there you have it.
As always, if you'd like tojoin the conversation with
over a thousand like-mindedproject management champions,
come join our collective!Head over to
thedpm.com/membershipto learn more.
And if you like what youheard today, please subscribe
and stay in touch onthedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time,thanks for listening.
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