May 13, 2025 • 21 mins
Getting laid off as a project manager can feel like more than just a job loss—it brings up uncertainty, self-doubt, and tough career questions. This episode features a live panel with three PMs who’ve been through it and come out stronger, offering real talk and practical advice for navigating career transitions.
Nicolassa Galvez, Thako Harris, and Nadaa Baqui share their personal layoff stories, lessons learned, and what helped them rebuild. From freelancing to career pivots, they offer insights for anyone facing a layoff or looking to future-proof their career in a volatile job market.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Nadaa, Nicolassa, and Thako on LinkedIn
- Check out Chingona Coach, 3MBET, and Skillshare
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:05):
Hey, I am Kelsey! And welcome back to The Retro
on the Digital Project Managerpodcast, where we dig into past
lessons, future trends, andwhat they mean for your career.
Getting laid off as aproject manager hits hard.
It's not justabout losing a job.
It's about the uncertainty.
It's about the what's next?
How do I explainthis on my resume?
(00:27):
Should I jump back inor take a step back?
Should I try freelancing?
It's a lot to figure out, butyou don't have to do it alone.
And that's why we're here today.
We're sharing a livediscussion we hosted featuring
three project managerswho have been laid off
and rebuilt their careers.
There's Nicolassa Galvez,an anti-career coach for
people who feel stuck orundervalued in their careers.
(00:50):
Having worked in both structuredcorporate and mission-driven
spaces, she brings her candidstyle to what it really means
to move through tough andunexpected career transitions.
There's Thako Harris, aseasoned operations and
resourcing veteran withover 11 years of experience
in project management.
His client roster includesrecognizable brands such as
Subaru, Zoom, GNC, and Comcast.
(01:13):
And there's Nadaa Baqui whobrings over 10 years of digital
project manager experience.
She's spearheaded cutting edgemobile and web applications
built for emerging tech,including AR, VR, and AI.
Throughout the discussion,they shared raw stories about
their layoffs, what they didafterward, what worked and what
didn't, and advice for folks whoare currently going through it.
(01:34):
So whether you're activelyjob hunting, exploring new
options, or just want tobe prepared for whatever
comes next, keep listening.
So as we get started here,I do just wanna thank all of
our panelists for being hereand for being willing to share
your layoff stories with us.
This stuff is personal.
(01:54):
It can be emotional, and itdoes take a lot of courage
to talk about, but as I'msure everyone on this call
knows, layoffs are way morecommon than we might think.
And the more we talkabout them, the less
isolating they will become.
So let's get into it andstart at the beginning here.
I'm hoping that eachof our panelists could
share their layoff story.
What happened?
(02:15):
Where did you land, andhow long did it take
you to "bounce" back?
Nadaa, why don't youget us started there?
Nadaa Baqui (02:21):
Thank you, Kelsey.
So first of all, hey everybody.
So good to see everyonefrom all these different
parts of the world.
First, I just wanna say DPM hasbeen such a great support for
me over the years, and I'm justreally glad I can be here to
share my story with you today.
Just in terms of my layoffjourney, things have
been slow for a while.
Projects were not comingin, and I was a little bit
(02:44):
worried about my future at theagency, but I wasn't expecting
to be laid off when I did.
It was the summer of 2024.
I had just put, been put onthis new and exciting project
and just like that, boom,I was hit with the news.
Turns out the agency was goingthrough a round of layoffs.
I was one of the teammembers affected.
(03:05):
It was my first experiencewith being laid off.
And honestly, I was devastated.
I was lost.
I didn't know what to do.
And I remember the initial daysI was just, I found myself like
constantly refreshing my emailsand just feeling so strange
about not having Slack to check,not attending any meetings.
(03:26):
I just felt empty and I wasworried about my finances.
Like I'm a mom, I havea mortgage to pay, and
I had heard the jobmarket was just horrible.
I was really stressed out.
It really was a lot.
I just needed time toprocess everything.
That's something I did.
I took that time for myself.
(03:47):
It's something Iwould recommend.
If you can afford to please justtake that time for yourself.
I think it'll helpyou down the line.
So that's what I did.
I took that time and then I.
I just worked on my resume,worked on my portfolio.
Didn't really apply for jobsbecause I didn't feel ready.
Eventually, later in the fallI landed a role at Skillshare
and I think it's here.
(04:08):
It was a contract role.
The team has just been sowonderful and that just
really helped my helpedme feel myself again.
I think I'm in abetter place right now.
Kelsey Alpaio (04:19):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
Nicolassa, could youtell us a little bit more
about your layoff story?
Nicolassa Galvez (04:24):
I've actually been fired twice and
laid off, so I will share myfiring story 'cause it was a
project management position.
My employer knew that, I wasstruggling with the role and
just because of the middlemanagement, realizing that
I love the theory of projectmanagement and the process.
But it's a people job and it'sabout managing people more than
(04:48):
managing the project, and Ijust didn't have that skillset.
So I didn't know thatI was gonna get fired.
It was giving a coworker a peptalk where unknowing to me.
My boss was listening inand she took it as a slight
to her, the pep talk.
(05:08):
And then a week after themeeting called me in after
a staff meeting virtually.
Let me go.
And then, we were friends,so it was maybe like a
three hour conversation.
It was really tough.
After that I burst intotears and called my partner.
Luckily she was there tosupport us financially.
(05:31):
But I know one layoff,it was so painful.
I had given noticein my apartment.
My mom picked up all mystuff and went into storage
'cause I knew I wasn'tgonna be able to go into a
full-time position right away.
So I couch surfed.
I eventually becamehomeless for a couple years.
But it was so painful that Iknew I couldn't go back into
(05:52):
the workplace and I didn't knowI was gonna become homeless
when I started couch surfing.
But I did know enough that Igave notice on my apartment,
like as soon as I had gottenlaid off 'cause I'm like, I'm
not gonna be able to affordthis 'cause I don't know
what I'm gonna do for money,but it's not gonna be going
back to a full-time job thatcan afford, a place to live.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:11):
Oh yeah.
Thank you for sharingthat story as well.
Thako, can you tellus a little bit more
about your layoff story?
Thako Harris (06:17):
I went from teaching into
project management.
I guess ultimately the storyis that we lost the client
and so then it was hopingif we would win another one.
And so in meantime, I wasdoing all these admin office
type, cleaning out the storageroom and it was just weird.
I guess I suspectedsomething might be brewing.
(06:40):
Yeah.
And then my boss scheduleda quick 15 with no subject.
And I didn't know at thattime that's like a kind of
a situation, so she toldme the news and then I was
like, weirdly comfortingher 'cause she was sad and.
I'm set, like I'll have no job.
Like I'm not, anyway, thatwas crazy because in teaching
(07:04):
it was very stable and Ilike enjoyed teaching a lot.
It just didn't pay very well.
And I thought, oh my God,I made a huge mistake.
And they wanted to go getdrinks afterwards and I was
like, hopefully not hangingout drinking after this.
I'm, I don't knowwhat I'm gonna do.
So luckily had, I'm a cyclist,so I had rocky kind of things
where I'm like going, runningon the beach and listening to
(07:25):
music and driving dark tunnels.
I don't know, but likethat kind of thing.
Eventually I had madeconnections in the ad community
and people are super helpful.
Like I had, I knew designersand copywriters and a lot
of people that were like,I'll keep my ear out.
I'll let you knowif I hear anything.
And a designer friendof mine redid my resume
(07:47):
in a really cool way.
I loved and somehow with atalent agency that worked and
I got another position withthat, which ultimately when
my contract was nearing theend, also was a factor I think
that hogg me to be laid off.
'cause they didn't wanna paythe, to close out the contract,
(08:09):
with a fee structure for meto become full-time there.
So they just, and again, Ifound myself like really is
this what ad agency life islike every year or two in
the fall when Q4 performanceagencies need to be reported
for bonuses for the higher ups?
I'm gonna get cut untilyou reach some level.
(08:31):
I don't know.
That's what I, my, mythinking was at the time.
But again a lot of connectionsin the Minneapolis agency
world and through cycling.
I knew a creative director andhis wife was a talent placer.
She didn't take a fee I don'trecall, and just recommended
me to CEO and I got in thereand I ended up staying at that
(08:54):
place for se almost seven years.
So at the time, every time thathappens, you think, oh man,
like the first one was threemonths before I got a new thing.
And then the secondone was lucky.
I was able to find anotherposition in a month.
But those times are dark.
Like you were saying,refreshing and looking and
(09:15):
it feels like gambling.
Like you're going into thedigital world, you're sending
these things and you have noidea, if it's gonna land or
bring anything back, and itjust feels like fishing or, it
didn't work with the word ofmouth, real connections that
you make while you're working.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:30):
It sounds like networking was a big piece
of getting that first role.
And Nadaa, you talked alittle bit about landing
a contract role shortlyafter being laid off.
Can you talk a little bitmore about the strategies that
helped you most in landing thatrole, and did you talk about
your layoff in interviews?
What did that processlook like for you?
Nadaa Baqui (09:49):
I was like, one of the first things I did
when I felt ready was I talkedto people about my layoff.
At first, I was hesitant.
I was a little embarrassedif it's okay to share.
But then I quickly realized likeI, need to rely on my network.
Like you said, Thako, justspoke to my friends about it.
Honestly, I spent a lotof hours on LinkedIn.
(10:10):
Like I said, I was stoppingpeople just reading their posts.
It's true.
One of these posts thatsomeone I had worked
with previously, right?
Like again, someonein my network that I
found my current role.
Again I can't stress enoughlike the importance of
reaching out to your network.
It's just so it's anextremely useful resource.
I had sent out so many resumes,just never heard back, or just
(10:33):
if I did hear it back, it waslike, Hey, we are interested in
you, but do you speak German,Italian, French, English?
And I was like, I'mnot Google Translate.
I just felt like therewas so many expectations.
So I just feel like yournetwork, your LinkedIn is
really your friend here.
Kelsey Alpaio (10:51):
That's really helpful advice.
And Nicolassa, I actuallywanna ask you a little bit
as well, because I knowyou've transitioned out of
the project management worldand are doing something a
little bit different now.
You're working as a grantsmanager and a coach, so can
you tell us a little bitmore about the decision to
not go for another PM role?
Like how did you figure outwhat you wanted to do and
(11:12):
once you figured it out,how did you go from there?
Nicolassa Galvez (11:15):
I had been doing project
management officially,because I love it so much.
It was always part of my role.
It was just coming to therealization about how much
more it was about people andthat, I could build the best
systems and have the best,create the best tickets, but if
I couldn't manage up with theleader that was assigning the
projects, let alone, managing mycoworkers wasn't as difficult.
(11:39):
It was more likethe managing up.
I had to admit to myselfthat I needed to move on from
that role because I wasn'twilling to learn the people
skills that I think that makeProject Manager so successful.
And my, the last place thatI got fired, they knew it.
And I had started thecoaching certification while
(12:01):
I was working with them.
But then when I had gottenfired, I had looked through,
I used the same resume.
I have a skills-basedresume, and that links to
my chronological becauseI am just not that person
that can update my resume.
And also, I had a designerfriend design it, and
it was so gorgeous.
(12:22):
That a lot of people acceptedthe skill-based and were
willing to go to my LinkedIn,which I felt I could update
easily and more quickly withthe chronological and then
the skills underneath it.
And I returned to grant writing,which is just a role that's
usually more quiet and isolated.
And I needed that quiet, Ineeded that autonomy and that
(12:45):
isolation, it's, it hasn't beenas autonomous as I'd like 'cause
it is a nonprofit sector, whichis very overly tight knit, but
the self-reflection and makingthat decision about, do I wanna
return to the role, not becauseI was fired, but was it a fit?
Kelsey Alpaio (13:04):
Yeah, that makes sense.
It does sound like getting adesigner friend is definitely
on the list of things to do.
Nicolassa Galvez (13:10):
One thing, a quick advice is indeed, if
you're not feeling up for theintense job application process,
my current grant writing jobwas a one button click, sending
my resume, not a cover letter,and the resume, the designer
friend resume stood out andwhen you are so tired of job
(13:32):
searching deeds, like oneclick apply feature is just a
lifesaver and it works, at leastonce, you know is all you need.
Kelsey Alpaio (13:41):
Great piece of advice.
And it does lead intomy next question here a
little bit, which is aroundthe rebuilding process.
It's riddled with rejectionsand setbacks, like Nadaa you
mentioned getting no after no.
And so I'm wondering whatadvice you all have for
maintaining your confidencethrough that process?
And Thako, I'll throw thisquestion to you first.
Thako Harris (14:01):
Yeah.
This is embarrassing to share,but I like to listen to like
gym techno or something likethis really hardcore, lift that
heavy weight kind of stuff.
And then I like go biking andthen I usually feel better and
I feel amped up and not oh,or because that gets heavy.
(14:24):
It gets heavy when you theghosting, which I think
before you'd get a reply.
Thanks for like now autoreply and then it's like
we will get in touch withyou if, and then it just
never, nothing can happen.
So that gets pulled quick.
But then back to the networkingpiece, I have found that
if there's, and LinkedInhas the third, fourth,
(14:45):
fifth layer connection.
If you can find that personto then do a little bit
of greasing the tracks foryou and because LinkedIn.
I used LinkedIn to try andhire, and it was just so
much, I just got overwhelmedand couldn't use it.
But if someone was like,Hey, I know someone, I'm
like, whoa, thank God.
Like it's just nightand day difference.
(15:07):
Oh my God.
Here's someone theyknow, someone, they've
talked to someone.
It's a real person.
They're not crazy.
I know them.
They're not crazy.
And so it just makesa massive difference.
So I just feel like ifthat, like you were saying,
Nadaa, that stalking.
Talk to those people and tryand start building some even
slight rapport that you canover, over LinkedIn and see
(15:29):
if they're, maybe not, don'tleave with that right away to
Hey, will you share my rest?
You probably have to be alittle more diplomatic and
spend a little time andthen, work your way that way.
Kelsey Alpaio (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And Nadaa, yeah, what tipsdo you have for, getting past
those rejections and those no's?
Nadaa Baqui (15:45):
I'm not gonna lie, I feel like I needed like
my own team of cheerleadersjust being like, yeah, you've
got this and you can do it.
And there were times, of courseyou feel very low, right?
Like you just don't hearback or response is so
limited and you're just,you're really demotivated.
It's different when youalready have a job and you're
applying for another job.
It's different 'causeyou have things that
are keeping you busy.
But when you're, when youdon't have, and like you,
(16:08):
your regular work going on.
It's tough.
So I would say to definitelylike relying on your network of
family and friends is important.
And then also just remembering,like just focusing on
like the fact that youhave a good body of work.
That one rejection isnot, doesn't define you.
And there are times I wouldforget that, but it's just
(16:28):
like constantly just no.
You have years of experience,you have a good body of work in.
You can do this.
Just being consistentand resilient and just
showing up every day.
And then I'd feel like somethingwill click eventually so.
Thako Harris (16:39):
Yeah, any number of rejections
doesn't define you.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:42):
Absolutely.
I do wanna talk a little bittoo about the destabilization
of layoffs in both like yourcareer and your life, going
through a layoff can feelso incredibly destabilizing,
and I've heard elements ofthat in all of your stories.
And so I'm wondering what you'vedone to help you regain some
of that feeling of stabilityor does that uncertainty
(17:04):
feeling never really go away?
Nicolassa Galvez (17:06):
No, I don't think it ever goes away.
My first time I wasfired was in 2012.
And it is a personality game.
It wasn't a skill.
It wasn't like I did somethingwrong, so I'm still grappling
with loving my personality andrealizing that it makes it for
a challenging workplace for me.
(17:28):
And so that heartbreak,it feels very personal
because it is a character.
Or I'm really active inthe community, and so I
have a good reputation.
So a lot of times I do get hiredthrough my network because of
my reputation or because of myoutcomes or what I've built.
But then, the day to day ofworking with me, who's, I don't
(17:50):
know, observant, curious, afixer, it's embracing the,
they want what I can dofor them, but not who I am.
That is still, such achallenging thing to
accept and having toconstantly remind myself.
But especially as women, we'resocialized that our value is in
(18:11):
what we do and not who we are.
Everyone struggles withfeelings of value and I'm sad
to say it does get better,but it doesn't go away.
It's still a challenge.
Kelsey Alpaio (18:22):
Absolutely.
And Thako, I know we've talkedabout this a little bit as well,
and now you know you're doing alittle bit of freelance PMing,
which has its own elements ofdestabilization and uncertainty.
Can you talk tothis a little bit?
Thako Harris (18:36):
I think I try to keep a schedule for myself of, I
build a routine that I just do.
Every day it's the same and Ijust limit the different things.
Because you could just spin inLinkedIn, like you could just
spin and spin and like chasedown this and that and this
and that and this and justlose any sense of you still
(18:58):
have to do stuff for yourself.
You still have to stay healthy.
You still have to maintainyour life as it is.
I feel like that helps providesome if I don't know what
I'm doing, at least my likestructures that I've set up,
keep me doing the things thatare productive in my life.
Wake up and then do this, andthen do that and then eat, and
then do that, and then check,and then go for a walk and then
(19:19):
go back and check some more andthen do something else again,
and then check some more.
And there's just short amountsof time to focus intensely and
then switch and do it again.
And then, so I find that helpsprovide some like feeling
of being productive whilealso, even though those like
answers might not be coming,then you can go for a walk
(19:39):
and oh, the sun's shining.
Or there's really thosesmall things that make
life nice regardless ofif you have a job or not.
So try to keep those thingsaware in your life so that like
gratitude I guess is the realthing that helps you keep going.
I think, when people say, oh,it's gonna make room for better
things, and you're like, whenpeople say that to you, you're
(20:01):
just like, I know, but you'resaying that you have a job.
It's just such a, it's, it istrue in some sense, but it's
I don't know, I don't knowexactly what I'm trying to say
with that, but it just feelslike one of those isms that
people say and then you dealwith and until you get a job,
like that's an ism, and thenin hindsight, it's great, but
(20:21):
if that hindsight is not goingbad, then you're like, I don't
know what you're talking about.
So yeah, I findroutines help me.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:30):
Absolutely.
And unfortunately weare out of time here.
That time absolutely flewby and I just wanna thank
all the panelists again forvolunteering your time today
and sharing your stories.
That's it for today's Retro.
Be sure to follow the showso you never miss an episode.
(20:51):
And if you wanna keep theconversation going with
a crew of a thousand plusproject management pros
who get it, come join usat thedpm.com/membership.
Thanks for listening.
Hey, I am Kelsey! And welcome back to The Retro
on the Digital Project Managerpodcast, where we dig into past
lessons, future trends, andwhat they mean for your career.
Getting laid off as aproject manager hits hard.
It's not justabout losing a job.
It's about the uncertainty.
It's about the what's next?
How do I explainthis on my resume?
(00:27):
Should I jump back inor take a step back?
Should I try freelancing?
It's a lot to figure out, butyou don't have to do it alone.
And that's why we're here today.
We're sharing a livediscussion we hosted featuring
three project managerswho have been laid off
and rebuilt their careers.
There's Nicolassa Galvez,an anti-career coach for
people who feel stuck orundervalued in their careers.
(00:50):
Having worked in both structuredcorporate and mission-driven
spaces, she brings her candidstyle to what it really means
to move through tough andunexpected career transitions.
There's Thako Harris, aseasoned operations and
resourcing veteran withover 11 years of experience
in project management.
His client roster includesrecognizable brands such as
Subaru, Zoom, GNC, and Comcast.
(01:13):
And there's Nadaa Baqui whobrings over 10 years of digital
project manager experience.
She's spearheaded cutting edgemobile and web applications
built for emerging tech,including AR, VR, and AI.
Throughout the discussion,they shared raw stories about
their layoffs, what they didafterward, what worked and what
didn't, and advice for folks whoare currently going through it.
(01:34):
So whether you're activelyjob hunting, exploring new
options, or just want tobe prepared for whatever
comes next, keep listening.
So as we get started here,I do just wanna thank all of
our panelists for being hereand for being willing to share
your layoff stories with us.
This stuff is personal.
(01:54):
It can be emotional, and itdoes take a lot of courage
to talk about, but as I'msure everyone on this call
knows, layoffs are way morecommon than we might think.
And the more we talkabout them, the less
isolating they will become.
So let's get into it andstart at the beginning here.
I'm hoping that eachof our panelists could
share their layoff story.
What happened?
(02:15):
Where did you land, andhow long did it take
you to "bounce" back?
Nadaa, why don't youget us started there?
Nadaa Baqui (02:21):
Thank you, Kelsey.
So first of all, hey everybody.
So good to see everyonefrom all these different
parts of the world.
First, I just wanna say DPM hasbeen such a great support for
me over the years, and I'm justreally glad I can be here to
share my story with you today.
Just in terms of my layoffjourney, things have
been slow for a while.
Projects were not comingin, and I was a little bit
(02:44):
worried about my future at theagency, but I wasn't expecting
to be laid off when I did.
It was the summer of 2024.
I had just put, been put onthis new and exciting project
and just like that, boom,I was hit with the news.
Turns out the agency was goingthrough a round of layoffs.
I was one of the teammembers affected.
(03:05):
It was my first experiencewith being laid off.
And honestly, I was devastated.
I was lost.
I didn't know what to do.
And I remember the initial daysI was just, I found myself like
constantly refreshing my emailsand just feeling so strange
about not having Slack to check,not attending any meetings.
(03:26):
I just felt empty and I wasworried about my finances.
Like I'm a mom, I havea mortgage to pay, and
I had heard the jobmarket was just horrible.
I was really stressed out.
It really was a lot.
I just needed time toprocess everything.
That's something I did.
I took that time for myself.
(03:47):
It's something Iwould recommend.
If you can afford to please justtake that time for yourself.
I think it'll helpyou down the line.
So that's what I did.
I took that time and then I.
I just worked on my resume,worked on my portfolio.
Didn't really apply for jobsbecause I didn't feel ready.
Eventually, later in the fallI landed a role at Skillshare
and I think it's here.
(04:08):
It was a contract role.
The team has just been sowonderful and that just
really helped my helpedme feel myself again.
I think I'm in abetter place right now.
Kelsey Alpaio (04:19):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
Nicolassa, could youtell us a little bit more
about your layoff story?
Nicolassa Galvez (04:24):
I've actually been fired twice and
laid off, so I will share myfiring story 'cause it was a
project management position.
My employer knew that, I wasstruggling with the role and
just because of the middlemanagement, realizing that
I love the theory of projectmanagement and the process.
But it's a people job and it'sabout managing people more than
(04:48):
managing the project, and Ijust didn't have that skillset.
So I didn't know thatI was gonna get fired.
It was giving a coworker a peptalk where unknowing to me.
My boss was listening inand she took it as a slight
to her, the pep talk.
(05:08):
And then a week after themeeting called me in after
a staff meeting virtually.
Let me go.
And then, we were friends,so it was maybe like a
three hour conversation.
It was really tough.
After that I burst intotears and called my partner.
Luckily she was there tosupport us financially.
(05:31):
But I know one layoff,it was so painful.
I had given noticein my apartment.
My mom picked up all mystuff and went into storage
'cause I knew I wasn'tgonna be able to go into a
full-time position right away.
So I couch surfed.
I eventually becamehomeless for a couple years.
But it was so painful that Iknew I couldn't go back into
(05:52):
the workplace and I didn't knowI was gonna become homeless
when I started couch surfing.
But I did know enough that Igave notice on my apartment,
like as soon as I had gottenlaid off 'cause I'm like, I'm
not gonna be able to affordthis 'cause I don't know
what I'm gonna do for money,but it's not gonna be going
back to a full-time job thatcan afford, a place to live.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:11):
Oh yeah.
Thank you for sharingthat story as well.
Thako, can you tellus a little bit more
about your layoff story?
Thako Harris (06:17):
I went from teaching into
project management.
I guess ultimately the storyis that we lost the client
and so then it was hopingif we would win another one.
And so in meantime, I wasdoing all these admin office
type, cleaning out the storageroom and it was just weird.
I guess I suspectedsomething might be brewing.
(06:40):
Yeah.
And then my boss scheduleda quick 15 with no subject.
And I didn't know at thattime that's like a kind of
a situation, so she toldme the news and then I was
like, weirdly comfortingher 'cause she was sad and.
I'm set, like I'll have no job.
Like I'm not, anyway, thatwas crazy because in teaching
(07:04):
it was very stable and Ilike enjoyed teaching a lot.
It just didn't pay very well.
And I thought, oh my God,I made a huge mistake.
And they wanted to go getdrinks afterwards and I was
like, hopefully not hangingout drinking after this.
I'm, I don't knowwhat I'm gonna do.
So luckily had, I'm a cyclist,so I had rocky kind of things
where I'm like going, runningon the beach and listening to
(07:25):
music and driving dark tunnels.
I don't know, but likethat kind of thing.
Eventually I had madeconnections in the ad community
and people are super helpful.
Like I had, I knew designersand copywriters and a lot
of people that were like,I'll keep my ear out.
I'll let you knowif I hear anything.
And a designer friendof mine redid my resume
(07:47):
in a really cool way.
I loved and somehow with atalent agency that worked and
I got another position withthat, which ultimately when
my contract was nearing theend, also was a factor I think
that hogg me to be laid off.
'cause they didn't wanna paythe, to close out the contract,
(08:09):
with a fee structure for meto become full-time there.
So they just, and again, Ifound myself like really is
this what ad agency life islike every year or two in
the fall when Q4 performanceagencies need to be reported
for bonuses for the higher ups?
I'm gonna get cut untilyou reach some level.
(08:31):
I don't know.
That's what I, my, mythinking was at the time.
But again a lot of connectionsin the Minneapolis agency
world and through cycling.
I knew a creative director andhis wife was a talent placer.
She didn't take a fee I don'trecall, and just recommended
me to CEO and I got in thereand I ended up staying at that
(08:54):
place for se almost seven years.
So at the time, every time thathappens, you think, oh man,
like the first one was threemonths before I got a new thing.
And then the secondone was lucky.
I was able to find anotherposition in a month.
But those times are dark.
Like you were saying,refreshing and looking and
(09:15):
it feels like gambling.
Like you're going into thedigital world, you're sending
these things and you have noidea, if it's gonna land or
bring anything back, and itjust feels like fishing or, it
didn't work with the word ofmouth, real connections that
you make while you're working.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:30):
It sounds like networking was a big piece
of getting that first role.
And Nadaa, you talked alittle bit about landing
a contract role shortlyafter being laid off.
Can you talk a little bitmore about the strategies that
helped you most in landing thatrole, and did you talk about
your layoff in interviews?
What did that processlook like for you?
Nadaa Baqui (09:49):
I was like, one of the first things I did
when I felt ready was I talkedto people about my layoff.
At first, I was hesitant.
I was a little embarrassedif it's okay to share.
But then I quickly realized likeI, need to rely on my network.
Like you said, Thako, justspoke to my friends about it.
Honestly, I spent a lotof hours on LinkedIn.
(10:10):
Like I said, I was stoppingpeople just reading their posts.
It's true.
One of these posts thatsomeone I had worked
with previously, right?
Like again, someonein my network that I
found my current role.
Again I can't stress enoughlike the importance of
reaching out to your network.
It's just so it's anextremely useful resource.
I had sent out so many resumes,just never heard back, or just
(10:33):
if I did hear it back, it waslike, Hey, we are interested in
you, but do you speak German,Italian, French, English?
And I was like, I'mnot Google Translate.
I just felt like therewas so many expectations.
So I just feel like yournetwork, your LinkedIn is
really your friend here.
Kelsey Alpaio (10:51):
That's really helpful advice.
And Nicolassa, I actuallywanna ask you a little bit
as well, because I knowyou've transitioned out of
the project management worldand are doing something a
little bit different now.
You're working as a grantsmanager and a coach, so can
you tell us a little bitmore about the decision to
not go for another PM role?
Like how did you figure outwhat you wanted to do and
(11:12):
once you figured it out,how did you go from there?
Nicolassa Galvez (11:15):
I had been doing project
management officially,because I love it so much.
It was always part of my role.
It was just coming to therealization about how much
more it was about people andthat, I could build the best
systems and have the best,create the best tickets, but if
I couldn't manage up with theleader that was assigning the
projects, let alone, managing mycoworkers wasn't as difficult.
(11:39):
It was more likethe managing up.
I had to admit to myselfthat I needed to move on from
that role because I wasn'twilling to learn the people
skills that I think that makeProject Manager so successful.
And my, the last place thatI got fired, they knew it.
And I had started thecoaching certification while
(12:01):
I was working with them.
But then when I had gottenfired, I had looked through,
I used the same resume.
I have a skills-basedresume, and that links to
my chronological becauseI am just not that person
that can update my resume.
And also, I had a designerfriend design it, and
it was so gorgeous.
(12:22):
That a lot of people acceptedthe skill-based and were
willing to go to my LinkedIn,which I felt I could update
easily and more quickly withthe chronological and then
the skills underneath it.
And I returned to grant writing,which is just a role that's
usually more quiet and isolated.
And I needed that quiet, Ineeded that autonomy and that
(12:45):
isolation, it's, it hasn't beenas autonomous as I'd like 'cause
it is a nonprofit sector, whichis very overly tight knit, but
the self-reflection and makingthat decision about, do I wanna
return to the role, not becauseI was fired, but was it a fit?
Kelsey Alpaio (13:04):
Yeah, that makes sense.
It does sound like getting adesigner friend is definitely
on the list of things to do.
Nicolassa Galvez (13:10):
One thing, a quick advice is indeed, if
you're not feeling up for theintense job application process,
my current grant writing jobwas a one button click, sending
my resume, not a cover letter,and the resume, the designer
friend resume stood out andwhen you are so tired of job
(13:32):
searching deeds, like oneclick apply feature is just a
lifesaver and it works, at leastonce, you know is all you need.
Kelsey Alpaio (13:41):
Great piece of advice.
And it does lead intomy next question here a
little bit, which is aroundthe rebuilding process.
It's riddled with rejectionsand setbacks, like Nadaa you
mentioned getting no after no.
And so I'm wondering whatadvice you all have for
maintaining your confidencethrough that process?
And Thako, I'll throw thisquestion to you first.
Thako Harris (14:01):
Yeah.
This is embarrassing to share,but I like to listen to like
gym techno or something likethis really hardcore, lift that
heavy weight kind of stuff.
And then I like go biking andthen I usually feel better and
I feel amped up and not oh,or because that gets heavy.
(14:24):
It gets heavy when you theghosting, which I think
before you'd get a reply.
Thanks for like now autoreply and then it's like
we will get in touch withyou if, and then it just
never, nothing can happen.
So that gets pulled quick.
But then back to the networkingpiece, I have found that
if there's, and LinkedInhas the third, fourth,
(14:45):
fifth layer connection.
If you can find that personto then do a little bit
of greasing the tracks foryou and because LinkedIn.
I used LinkedIn to try andhire, and it was just so
much, I just got overwhelmedand couldn't use it.
But if someone was like,Hey, I know someone, I'm
like, whoa, thank God.
Like it's just nightand day difference.
(15:07):
Oh my God.
Here's someone theyknow, someone, they've
talked to someone.
It's a real person.
They're not crazy.
I know them.
They're not crazy.
And so it just makesa massive difference.
So I just feel like ifthat, like you were saying,
Nadaa, that stalking.
Talk to those people and tryand start building some even
slight rapport that you canover, over LinkedIn and see
(15:29):
if they're, maybe not, don'tleave with that right away to
Hey, will you share my rest?
You probably have to be alittle more diplomatic and
spend a little time andthen, work your way that way.
Kelsey Alpaio (15:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And Nadaa, yeah, what tipsdo you have for, getting past
those rejections and those no's?
Nadaa Baqui (15:45):
I'm not gonna lie, I feel like I needed like
my own team of cheerleadersjust being like, yeah, you've
got this and you can do it.
And there were times, of courseyou feel very low, right?
Like you just don't hearback or response is so
limited and you're just,you're really demotivated.
It's different when youalready have a job and you're
applying for another job.
It's different 'causeyou have things that
are keeping you busy.
But when you're, when youdon't have, and like you,
(16:08):
your regular work going on.
It's tough.
So I would say to definitelylike relying on your network of
family and friends is important.
And then also just remembering,like just focusing on
like the fact that youhave a good body of work.
That one rejection isnot, doesn't define you.
And there are times I wouldforget that, but it's just
(16:28):
like constantly just no.
You have years of experience,you have a good body of work in.
You can do this.
Just being consistentand resilient and just
showing up every day.
And then I'd feel like somethingwill click eventually so.
Thako Harris (16:39):
Yeah, any number of rejections
doesn't define you.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:42):
Absolutely.
I do wanna talk a little bittoo about the destabilization
of layoffs in both like yourcareer and your life, going
through a layoff can feelso incredibly destabilizing,
and I've heard elements ofthat in all of your stories.
And so I'm wondering what you'vedone to help you regain some
of that feeling of stabilityor does that uncertainty
(17:04):
feeling never really go away?
Nicolassa Galvez (17:06):
No, I don't think it ever goes away.
My first time I wasfired was in 2012.
And it is a personality game.
It wasn't a skill.
It wasn't like I did somethingwrong, so I'm still grappling
with loving my personality andrealizing that it makes it for
a challenging workplace for me.
(17:28):
And so that heartbreak,it feels very personal
because it is a character.
Or I'm really active inthe community, and so I
have a good reputation.
So a lot of times I do get hiredthrough my network because of
my reputation or because of myoutcomes or what I've built.
But then, the day to day ofworking with me, who's, I don't
(17:50):
know, observant, curious, afixer, it's embracing the,
they want what I can dofor them, but not who I am.
That is still, such achallenging thing to
accept and having toconstantly remind myself.
But especially as women, we'resocialized that our value is in
(18:11):
what we do and not who we are.
Everyone struggles withfeelings of value and I'm sad
to say it does get better,but it doesn't go away.
It's still a challenge.
Kelsey Alpaio (18:22):
Absolutely.
And Thako, I know we've talkedabout this a little bit as well,
and now you know you're doing alittle bit of freelance PMing,
which has its own elements ofdestabilization and uncertainty.
Can you talk tothis a little bit?
Thako Harris (18:36):
I think I try to keep a schedule for myself of, I
build a routine that I just do.
Every day it's the same and Ijust limit the different things.
Because you could just spin inLinkedIn, like you could just
spin and spin and like chasedown this and that and this
and that and this and justlose any sense of you still
(18:58):
have to do stuff for yourself.
You still have to stay healthy.
You still have to maintainyour life as it is.
I feel like that helps providesome if I don't know what
I'm doing, at least my likestructures that I've set up,
keep me doing the things thatare productive in my life.
Wake up and then do this, andthen do that and then eat, and
then do that, and then check,and then go for a walk and then
(19:19):
go back and check some more andthen do something else again,
and then check some more.
And there's just short amountsof time to focus intensely and
then switch and do it again.
And then, so I find that helpsprovide some like feeling
of being productive whilealso, even though those like
answers might not be coming,then you can go for a walk
(19:39):
and oh, the sun's shining.
Or there's really thosesmall things that make
life nice regardless ofif you have a job or not.
So try to keep those thingsaware in your life so that like
gratitude I guess is the realthing that helps you keep going.
I think, when people say, oh,it's gonna make room for better
things, and you're like, whenpeople say that to you, you're
(20:01):
just like, I know, but you'resaying that you have a job.
It's just such a, it's, it istrue in some sense, but it's
I don't know, I don't knowexactly what I'm trying to say
with that, but it just feelslike one of those isms that
people say and then you dealwith and until you get a job,
like that's an ism, and thenin hindsight, it's great, but
(20:21):
if that hindsight is not goingbad, then you're like, I don't
know what you're talking about.
So yeah, I findroutines help me.
Kelsey Alpaio (20:30):
Absolutely.
And unfortunately weare out of time here.
That time absolutely flewby and I just wanna thank
all the panelists again forvolunteering your time today
and sharing your stories.
That's it for today's Retro.
Be sure to follow the showso you never miss an episode.
(20:51):
And if you wanna keep theconversation going with
a crew of a thousand plusproject management pros
who get it, come join usat thedpm.com/membership.
Thanks for listening.
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